Male Privilege. | MensRights

[–]PierceHarlan 95 points96 points97 points 14 years ago* (43 children) | Copy Link

We need to end the selective service. The gender double standard is not consonant with our overriding gender neutral laws. It's a peculiar remnant of a chivalry that should not be institutionalized in law.

There's no draft, and little chance of a draft now, so why must all men, and only men, between the ages of 18 and 25 and living in the United States, register for a potential military draft under the nation's Selective Service System?

No hardship making young men register, you say? The hardship is if you don't register. My guess is that a lot of disadvantaged guys don't, for any number of reasons. What happens if a man fails to register? "A man who fails to register may, if prosecuted and convicted, face a fine of up to $250,000 and/or a prison term of up to five years. Even if not tried, a man who fails to register with Selective Service before turning age 26 may find that some doors are permanently closed."

Among the doors permanently closed to men who fail to register are the following:

STUDENT FINANCIAL AID: Men, born after December 31, 1959, who aren't registered with Selective Service won't qualify for Federal student loans or grant programs. This includes Pell Grants, College Work Study, Guaranteed Student/Plus Loans, and National Direct Student Loans.

CITIZENSHIP: The U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services (CIS) makes registration with Selective Service a condition for U.S. citizenship if the man first arrived in the U.S. before his 26th birthday.

FEDERAL JOB TRAINING: The Workforce Investment Act (formerly called the Job Training Partnership Act - JTPA) offers programs that can train young men for jobs in auto mechanics and other skills. This program is only open to those men who register with Selective Service. Only men born after December 31, 1959, are required to show proof of registration.

FEDERAL JOBS: A man must be registered to be eligible for jobs in the Executive Branch of the Federal government and the U.S. Postal Service. Proof of registration is required only for men born after December 31, 1959.

The states have their own penalties for men who fail to register.

Women are exempt from registering, yet, the Selective Service's Web site is replete with assertions of its own fairness. The following sentences are teeming with irony: "If a draft is ever needed, it must be as fair as possible, and that fairness depends on having as many eligible men as possible registered." And: "Only if there is high compliance with this law, will a future draft be fair and equitable."

It seems palpably hollow to assert that a future draft will "be fair and equitable" if it excludes from the outset more than one-half of the pool of eligible registrants merely because of their birth class; namely, all females aged 18-26.

And, no, I don't want women to be forced to register. No one should have to register.

But every year, even without a draft, the present law is penalizing a massive number of men, and only men, by making them possible felons and permanently stripping them of valuable rights and privileges that their same-age female peers, and the men who know to register, have. The numbers of men affected are staggering. According to the Annual Report to Congress of the Selective Service System for fiscal year 2009: "[I]f a man fails to register, or fails to provide evidence that he is exempt from the registration requirement . . ., his name is referred to the Department of Justice . . . for possible investigation and prosecution for his failure to register, as required by the Military Selective Service Act. During FY 2009, 169,586 names and addresses of suspected violators were provided to the DoJ, an increase of 22% from FY 2008." And every name on that list is male.

Let that number sink in: 169,586. It is reasonable to assume that the vast majority of these men are lacking in education and social standing, and most likely just don't fully understand -- despite the Selective Service System's explicit warnings -- what failing to register could mean to them. The penalties to be imposed on these men for this infraction will only add to their oppression.

[–][deleted] 36 points37 points38 points 14 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

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[–]TheTravelingAirman -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Out of curiosity, what is this fundamental moral in life? Because if it is not killing, there are MANY jobs in the military that don't involve the taking of life.

Shoot, when the earthquake and tsunami hit Japan, each US base had a massive turn-out of servicemen and women volunteering to assist the Japanese in clean-up of their disaster-torn nation. Towns and villages that had never had American visitors are now closely tied to some bases because of the efforts of our troops overseas in improving the living conditions of the unfortunate victims of the disaster.

I understand and fully support your belief (though not any decision to break law this law, useless as it may seem), I just didn't want people to go about thinking we all go around killing for a living. Even if you didn't, you'd be surprised the questions I get asked by people who do!

[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 14 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Oh no I'm not calling people in the military killers or anything. What I'm saying is because the military has the possibility of killing people I don't like it. Whenever you guys are helping other people after a natural disaster I think that's a great thing. If the government created new organizations that were designed only to help people of natural disasters, or to study/protect rainforest/trees in general/coral reefs I'd totally be for it (sorry socialist here) and I'd probably sign up for it. Even the smallest possibility of war and taking human lives just turns me off.

My fundamental moral principle in life is basically that human life is precious and for no reason should we take it away (abortions are a different because the fetus is only dependent on the mother and normally abortions happen when the fetus still, to me at least, looks like semen and isn't really human life to me). All animal life is very close to the same preciousness but since I'm human my species comes above other species. Though I should say I do still eat meat because it's the most convenient way in our society right now but I'm totally for some sort of created food that gives us all the nutrients we need for life.

If I haven't already stated it I don't hate you I hate the war.

[–]TheTravelingAirman 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Aavagadrro 71 points72 points73 points 14 years ago (59 children) | Copy Link

Ok guys. War veteran here. 5 trips to the sand box between 91 and 04. There are no front lines anymore, you can take fire anywhere in the AOR. Just because you dont have a combat job, like an 11B, doesnt mean you wont be in harms way. Shit can go down anywhere at any time, so even the office weenies can get shot.

Women serve along side us men, women have died in Iraq and Afghanistan as well as Vietnam, Korea, and WWII. Sure it is mostly males going off to war, only we are required to sign up for selective service, but women go to war too. Of course there is a disparity, more men die than women, but that is changing.

I know full well about women who cant do the same physical jobs, I have had to pull the weight of someone else because she couldnt do it herself, and she was more in the way than help. There are also women serving who are very capable, who get the job done, and dont bat their eyelashes and smile coyly to get out of work. It was more often that the females I worked with were capable, and they served, did the job, and deployed like the rest of us.

To sum up, most veterans deserve respect, no matter what their gender happens to be. I agree selective service either needs to end, or be amended to require both genders to register.

[–]Pwag 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]Aavagadrro 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Its interesting you asked. I had two guys I supervised who would do anything they could to get out of work. One bragged about how awesome he was at working, but he was utterly worthless. Had one guy who would take 15 minutes to put his coat on so he could get out of work. With some people it is a constant thing, it wasnt limited to the girl who worked in an office and had 4" nails standing around watching everyone else tide down stuff when she was tasked to come help out. I sent her ass back to her section and mentioned the nails that were obviously not in reg. We had both men and women malingering, the sad thing is we had more men doing it, probably because there were more men in my unit. The hardest working woman in my unit was a lesbian, I was the only guy who knew she had a girlfriend.

[–]Pwag 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]Aavagadrro 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]Pwag 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Aavagadrro 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Sounds like a great dad to me man. Right now I am working very damn hard to straighten out my 15 year old daughter who was raised by her mother after she took off with them. She is coming along well, and except for a couple scrapes doing shit her mother taught her to do, like shoplifting, she is doing better every week.

Saying I am a MRA is only half of it. I honestly believe your gender should not matter in family court or any other part of society. It should be equal, not catering to one gender at the expense of the other. Truthfully I want women to have equal rights to men, have the same opportunities as men, but I dont want it so skewed that women are now given more opportunities and privilege. Trying to make up for past wrongs to previous generations by punishing the current generations is ludicrous.

My wife is a feminist and she feels the same way. Before she met me she had no idea that men were fucked over so thoroughly and often by the courts. The main difference with her and so many other women who identify as feminist is that she only wants equality, not superiority and payback.

[–]Pwag 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Aavagadrro 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

The reason we are here as MRAs is far too many feminists, judges, and lawmakers have been swinging everything to domination. If we dont push back to equalize things, it will just keep going until we are left with nothing.

I fought for custody, the ex was abusive to me and the kids. She claimed I was with no proof and I was limited to supervised visits for 6 years or so. I would have had proof if the cops who showed up had taken anything seriously when I was bruised, cut, had ripped clothing, but all they wanted to know is if I hit her at all. In 2002 she tried to off herself with an overdose, the judge said that her boyfriend could take care of my kids because I was military so therefore I was an unfit father. She didnt pay her bills, got evicted from 5 different places, and my kids lost everything I had ever gotten for them. She wouldnt buy shit for them, so my parents and I would get them clothes and school supplies every year. The only job she ever had was in a rest home, and she quit before they fired her for being abusive to the residents.

She got the kids because she is female, no other reason. When the youngest was 10 she wanted to come live with me, but the courts wouldnt allow it. She moved up here when she was 14, and they still require me to pay the ex for child support for her, and the ex gets the Social Security disability money for my kids because I am a disabled vet. So I am supporting the kid, and still forced to pay her. So she gets about $1400 a month thanks to me, and neither kid lives with her now.

All I want is some equality. I dont want payback or servitude from her. Just equality. Instead I am indentured to the state and to her. Now I have to fix all the fucked up shit she taught my kid, and teach her self discipline, give her structure, and guidance while teaching her how to be a normal productive adult member of society. The kid never wants to live with her mom again, at least here she has food to eat all month.

[–]Pwag 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]TracyMorganFreeman 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

60% of combat deaths are from IEDs. What with there being "no front lines", you'd think women would be closer to the 11% of totaldeaths insread of 2%, which is about the representation of women in the armed forces in afghanistan.

Heck, I think the majority of female deaths are non-combat related, with accidents or illness.

Of course we're not including suicides from PTSD, which you skew the numbers even further towards women being far removed from danger in the aggregate with deployed troops having around triple the diagnoses of non deployed troops and men being 80% of suicides on the average.

It's pretty simple: Men are in far more danger in the military than women. With 11% of deployed forces being female and only 2% of deployed fatalities being female, this "there is no front lines" rhetoric is a misdirection.

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[–]Aavagadrro 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

That is the point. There is no way I could do it. You get a certain number of 'points' for your waist size in the AF for the fitness test. The most is 30 and below with 40 points, the least is 39 at 1. The time you run is also awarded points varying on how old you are and how fast you run it, as is the pushup and situp parts. Your height is factored in and its all based on BMI, which is a measurement of starving French people in the 1700-1900 years. So a very muscular guy like me, with a very heavy bone structure is morbidly obese because I have so much mass. My wrists are 6.5" around and I am only 5'7" tall, give or take half an inch if its morning or afternoon.

With a 38" waist I only get two points, and that is washboard abs. That means to get enough points to pass I have to run a mile and a half faster than the worlds fastest people just to stay in. Obviously, there is no way someone like me could stay in the USAF with the new standards that are skewed heavily towards very skinny males who cant bench their own weight. The fucked up part is all the mass came from doing my job in the AF during the first gulf war. They made me overly muscled this way, I didnt.

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[+]Jongo_Gurmola 14 years ago* [recovered] (8 children) | Copy Link

To sum up, most veterans deserve respect...

I've yet to meet a single veteran of our contemporary occupations deserving of my respect. What did you do to deserve it?

[–]Aavagadrro 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

The fact that you dont know what we did is enough for me. I like to think of it this way. Even though I didnt agree with us going into Iraq, and I knew it was bullshit political posturing and little more than war profiteering, I and all the others went so you didnt have to. We volunteered so you didnt have to be drafted to fight in that shithole to make others wealthier.

It speaks volumes to me about the places I have been being completely unlike the country in which I was raised. Where kids growing up dont have to worry about being blown up or killed because of their parents religion or political ideology, or just because they have been in the wrong place. People in the USA are not exposed to the horrors that abound in other parts of the world, simply because the military prevents it from coming here. Sure we have crime, and drug war fueled violence, but it is nothing like most parts of the world. That allows people to have a dissenting opinion of the US military, because they simply do not know what the North American continent would be like without us. Think more like northern Mexico and you start to get the idea.

Really, I dont care if you respect us or not. That isnt why I went.

[+]Jongo_Gurmola 14 years ago* [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

Her name was Abeer Qassim Hamza al-Janabi and she is just one of many examples of what the military did out there.

Over 100,000 civilians have died of violence in Iraq since 2003. The number would not have exceeded 1000 had the USA military not invaded and Saddam been left to his devices. The quality of life for the citizenry had declined in Iraq markedly since the invasion, with medical care and dental care becoming privatised and inaccessible to the majority of the population. Infrastructure destroyed in the invasion has yet to be replaced and electricity supply is sporadic. Congenital birth defects are much more common than anywhere else in the world.

This is what you did there. Own it, soldier.

[–]Aavagadrro 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Oh so you want to blame us for that. Ok. How about we put the blame where it should be, on the political assholes who sent us there. On the religious zealots who tried to turn it into a holy war. I will agree with you that we should not have invaded them, but to say we can change policy or decide who to invade is a bit naive.

Both times we fought with them, I had already been in and we were doing things elsewhere. Apparently you never heard that we have already been to Iran. They had a rather large earthquake a few years back and we provided humanitarian relief. We do that too, not just go kill innocents and not so innocents. Now these government and religious assholes are wanting to invade Iran, making up excuses to do it, and using Israel to justify it.

You and I are in agreement if you dont want to go around invading countries willy nilly. Last I checked North Korea was actively working on making the bomb, and yet no plans are in effect to invade them. Nobody is claiming they need to be stopped at all costs. They must not have oil and they dont have a state religion that can be utilized to whip people into a holy war frenzy.

You want someone who is fully against war, talk to someone who has lived in it. Some of my best friends are arabs, and I have known them since 1991, one of whom I was engaged to. The thought of nuking the entire region like the religious in my family say we should is abhorrent to me, because I see them as human beings, not just brown muslim terrorists.

It pains me that my government supports an abusive regime that treats citizens born there horribly simply due to their religion and ancestry. Then if you say anything bad about how they treat those people you are branded a bigot and antisemitic. In the end why do we have to be the worlds police force when it only pisses people off at us? The simple answer to that is greed. We keep electing people who take advantage of our military to fulfill their greed. Hating the military and its members is giving the politicians and easy way out, but that is how they do things. They misdirect your attention to keep themselves from being the bad guy.

[+]Jongo_Gurmola 14 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Stop being so congenial, damnit! I want to argue

[–]Aavagadrro 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Cant help it, I sacrificed my health because they told me to go over there. It pisses me off that our people get fucked up fucking up their people just so someone can make a profit on it. I have lost too many friends defending profits and oil fields and then it is justified with a holy war on the side.

My brother has been on 7 deployments in the Army, he has lost lots of friends both when he was driving trucks that haul tanks, and while flying helicopters. He hates war as much as I do, but we go where they tell us and do what we are told to do, provided it is a lawful order.

Congress making the invasion of Iraq a lawful order is on them. Then they congratulate themselves and give themselves a pay increase and more benefits for being in government.

I guess if you want to argue I can put you in touch with my cousins husband. He is a fundie christian that believes we should kill all the muslims or force them to convert to christianity, and that invading Iraq was the best thing we could do. He is a Major in the reserves, and his job when he was enlisted before being an officer kept him out of the desert. He was an office weenie, so he has no idea what war is like. He would argue with you all day I bet.

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Kuwait after 91 was nice. No complaints at all about my 04 trip, hell we stayed in the Hilton and the Radsison and got $86 per diem. Nothing was happening in Kuwait then, and damn was that nice. Its like the AF paid me back for all the years of fucking me over and sending me into shit I shouldnt have been in. The only part that sucked was we could only stay 101 days, well that and fucking reserves were running the show.

The 01 Kuwait trip sucked, mostly because we got there August 28 and after 9/11 we had nothing to do because no planes were flying. No planes, no work for cargo guys. We were fighting over who got to go to the airport to unload the first planes just to get off Camp Doha. Still that was far better than my first trips to the sandbox. I dont go into much detail on those, not usually things I like to remember or think about.

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There are also other places than the US, where the system is discriminatory in a very concrete manner. In my home country every healthy man (in the "fit for duty" sense) has exactly three choices: military service of 6 months or more, civil service that's about twice as long (basically about a year of unpaid work for some governmental or other accepted institution) or half a year in jail.

Healthy women too can do a military service if they want to, which fact has been praised as a great step towards equality, but there's no requirement to do so or any kind of penalty for not doing so, so it falls neatly into the good old "more liberties for women, all the same responsibilities for men" line of thinking. Ironically any Gender Inequality Index that I know of doesn't even take this kind of discrimination (or any other discrimination against and/or otherwise underprivileged social state of men) into account when determining which countries are the most gender equal, hence the one I live in is repeatedly rated as one of the most equal in the world (read: women have it good here). Discrimination against men isn't even seen as real discrimination; it only counts when women are in question.

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Women had privilege in every day life and many of men's privileges were about turning men into utilities for women.

During the great depression there was a huge reduction in the number of jobs available. We ended up giving a large preference towards hiring and retaining men in the workforce. However, this wasn't because we thought men deserved a higher standard of living or that only men could be doctors... We gave men preference in the limited number of jobs left because expected men to fulfill their role as providers, ie servants. Think about how bad it must have been to be the one working during those times.

And when we look at job situation for men, today, we know that married men earn more than unmarried men (even after education is controlled for). This strongly indicates why men earn more money and the nature of their work. Men usually work to serve others and not their ego; if men work for their own ego they would earn more as single men who have loads more time. In short, men naturally don't want to work but they got stuck with that role. The role that will force men into longer commutes, less life balance, less time with kids, more stress, and less retirement. And that is when the working world doesn't especially suck.

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[+]FamnDamily 14 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

That sucks too. The burden of the draft should be felt by all classes and genders.

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A lot of men wouldn't want to take on traditional female roles, either--you may think the grass is greener, but no one has it perfect and that's partially a function of confirmation bias and only seeing what you want.

In a time of war there is no question who has it better or who you would rather be in the picture.

Additionally, the burden that most men took on via traditional roles go so far against natural tendencies. Males were beating more, punished more, sacrificed more, worked more, had less time with kids, had less socializing, and less retirement. I can't imagine people picking that life without trying to serve someone. I think there is a good reason men have become happier (in some respects) over the past decades despise misandric laws.

There are very few times/places where one gender definitively has it better than another (modern Saudi Arabia is one of them, for example, because it's so extreme--not that the men there have it perfect, but).

Don't know enough about it to make that judgement.

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[+]FamnDamily 14 years ago* [recovered] (52 children) | Copy Link

It was the men who were sent out to fight, not the women.

Under the assumption that women would be too weak/a distraction to the troops. That's some awfully backhanded "privilege." Is it still privilege if it degrades the subject to the value of furniture? Not that getting fed into the war machine is just the epitome of honor and privilege, but being treated like a china doll is extremely disempowering. So men are dolled out like drones to die, and women are kept home like furniture to be raped and killed by the enemy. Nobody wins. Lets stop pretending war only hurts group x more than y.

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[–]_FUCKYOUPAYME_ 12 points13 points14 points 14 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[+]FamnDamily 14 years ago [recovered] (8 children) | Copy Link

Women lose their husbands, their fathers, their sons in combat.

...and are raped by enemy combatants. And get their homes and towns burnt to the ground. And get shuffled around into refugee camps where they and their children starve to death.

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Okay, so, imagine you live in East Congo. Err. Well. Give it your best shot. Nobody's actually good at imagining they live in hell.

Anyway, you're just a regular dude, right? Wife, angel of a daughter, you know the drill. And shit's nice. I mean, yeah, militias are a pain, but you keep your head down and have learned how not to attract attention.

Until, of course, the army comes in, and they're looking for a slambox or thirty. They're not looking for women--their plans don't actually involve other people--but you know what they're going to do. And wouldn't you know it, they stop in front of your place. Now you're staring down the barrel of a gun, and the nice colonel is asking if he could visit with your wife.

And here's where you make your last fuck up. You didn't mean to display that moment of outrage on your face--let's face it, you've seen this one coming for the nine years your daughter has been alive; you did everything you could to prepare yourself for this sort of eventuality. But what can you do? Microexpressions last such a short amount of time that by the time you've realized the signal was sent to your facial muscles, the other person has reacted.

Now that nice colonel isn't so nice anymore. You know that, because you woke up some time later with a missing tooth and a bloody nose, and a sore spot on your face roughly corresponding to the butt of an AK-47.

And now that you realized that pain, your brain is active enough to realize that you've been sodomized for hours. You don't even know for how long. And it keeps going. You never figured out how long it continued for, either. All you knew was pain, all you saw was hate, and small pieces of you died with every blow, thrust, and otherwise-inflicted wound.

When they let you go, they didn't say anything. You didn't say anything either. Everyone involved knew why it happened: you were defiant for one moment. The man without the gun gave the man with the gun the impression that he didn't like the state of things.

You don't know what happened to your wife or daughter.

But your suffering hasn't stopped. In fact, it's only just begun. See, you can't report what happened. Not because nobody cares what the army does--by the way, nobody cares what the army does--but because nearly everyone in the Congo is homophobic.

Oh, I know. I know. You're not homosexual. But it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter that it was rape; you've had a dick inside you, and you are now a pariah. In the back of your mind, you're pretty sure your wife would leave you if she knew what had happened to you.

In fact, what if she did know? What if that's why she's gone? Maybe they didn't kill her, and the mother of your child is now afraid of you, repulsed by you.

I say all this, because this is approximately similar to what happened to the--conservatively--200,000 women raped in Bangladesh. Same trauma. Same ostracism. Worse trauma within systemic rape in Eastern Europe over the last twenty-odd years, although less ostracism. Even worse trauma in Nanking.

Now. You tell me. Is there an ethical difference between ending a person's life and subjecting them to the aforementioned traumas, and if so, is one worse than the other?

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]FamnDamily 14 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm really not trying to "keep score." War is shitty for everyone. It doesn't have to be a pissing contest. The more we focus on that and less on, "Look at these bitches sittin' pretty while we go die on the battlefield," the closer we can come to uniting and demanding an end to the endless wars.

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All I want to contribute to this is the following:

Rape of Nanking & "comfort women"
Wehrmacht brothels
Systemic rape in East Germany
Bangladesh in the 70's
Bosnia in the early 90's

Civilians get the worst of everything in a war when an enemy army invades. I dare you to suggest that the women at home in Nanking during the winter of '37 had it better off than the men out fighting.

Until the enemy invades, sure, the civilians are better off. Second the city falls though? I'd rather be getting blown apart on the beaches than be forced by enemy troops to rape my mother or daughter.

I highly doubt they're suggesting that men are not the primary fodder of war--that would be silly. But the level of atrocities committed upon civilians should be something that's kept in mind when you think about how comparatively great it would have been to be a woman during WWII.

[–]ZimbaZumba 3 points4 points5 points 14 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Would you say that there is an ethical difference between the killing of another person in battle and the rape, mutilation, and killing of a civilian of an enemy nation?

Because if you would agree that there is a difference--mind you, this is irrespective of gender; many men were raped and mutilated in Bosnia, and best estimates of the number of males raped in the Congo are something along the lines of 23%, so understand that I place no weighting on gender--then you need yo understand that when a war enters a nation's territory, this is the sort of thing that has happened to the civilian population.

I am not, in any sense, attempting to "play down" the sacrifices made in war by our armed forces; I am only attempting to remind the person whom I first responded to that civilians of both genders--meaning, historically, mostly women--have been subject to some atrocious violence, and that in making any sort of analysis on the concept of the price paid for a nation's defence, a person needs to remember this.

I would have thought that was clear.

[–]ZimbaZumba 2 points3 points4 points 14 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]intrepiddemise 3 points4 points5 points 14 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

You're right; we haven't been invaded in 200 years (I don't count the Aleutians either), but at the very least, the fear of invasion was there, and there is a psychological toll there.

It is disingenuous to suggest that American civilians felt the same fear as their British, French or Chinese allies, I agree. I'm merely pointing out the atrocities we (the general we; "we, the species") visit upon the unarmed, and why it might not be so great to be a woman in historical wartime. Or a civilian in wartime in general. War sucks for everyone, and suggesting that women in a contested area are "safe at home" without any danger is just as disingenuous.

Additionally, I'd make the point about how the lack of prior invasion does not a lack of future invasion make, but I'm sure y'all are already aware of that.

[–]intrepiddemise 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]fondueguy 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

Rape is nasty. Let me pose it this way:

Scenario A: A person dies. Any future opportunities for positive or negative utility are negated. That's how it works when you stop being alive. If it's a wartime death, in all likelihood it was painful, at least for a moment, possibly for much longer. However, there's definitely no way to gauge whether or not their life would have gone on to suck or be awesome. I can't even begin to define how this affects their potential future utility; all I can do is assign a big, scary "undefined", subtitled, "Shit Sucks".

That person's relations are now all sad because they died. Those people all experience quantifiable--but not known or constant--negative utility.

Scenario B: a person is raped & mutilated, but they survive the ordeal. They experience prolonged pain, and are forever marked. Not only that, there is documentable, long-lasting psychological trauma, of a very deep nature. They may never interact with other human beings the same way ever again, and I'd hesitate to be optimistic about the implications there. Their life certainly won't follow the same path as it would have had they simply not been raped and mutilated, so there's an argument that their future is as stolen from them as the dead--weak, yes--and that anything they build on from there is going to be markedly different from their life before.

This person's relations are also sad. Perhaps not quite as much as the relations in Scenario A, but there is a negative impact nonetheless.

So, to recap, we have someone potentially suffering for the duration of their death, losing their indeterminate future lows and highs, and their family and friends grieving; and we have a person who suffers physical and deep psychological trauma, lifelong effects of trauma, loss of indeterminate future potentially mitigated by continuance of life, and their family and friends grieving.

Honestly. Yeah. I think I might just prefer my family dead over raped. A dead person has stopped suffering. A rape victim may not stop suffering until they themselves die.

[–]fondueguy 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

However, there's definitely no way to gauge whether or not their life would have gone on to suck or be awesome. I can't even begin to define how this affects their potential future utility; all I can do is assign a big, scary "undefined", subtitled, "Shit Sucks".

That has no meaning. Most people want to live and place value on life.

A dead person has stopped suffering. A rape victim may not stop suffering until they themselves die.

It's better to die than pull off a band aid too...

I think you're just bs'ing.

Honestly. Yeah. I think I might just prefer my family dead over raped

Just like those good old honor killings, or mercy killings, you could say...

In general,

people don't kill their family members or themselves for fear of rape.
people will usually allow themselves to be raped if threatened with death.

Ergo, death is worse.

[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

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[–]fondueguy1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted]1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Alright, how about this. Would you rape a person? Would you want to be personally accountable for a person's rape?

...now, would you want to be personally accountable for a person's death?

I mean in the general sense.

You know why I tell you you don't know nearly as much about human psychology as you pretend you do? You look at an evolutionarily-programmed instinct that leads to a thought-killswitch of sorts--the instinctual avoidance of death--and think that equates to an ultimate fear, or an ultimate negative within a universal ethos.

That's not what it is, though. It's just a collection of nerves that serve to keep mammals interested in life for long enough to figure out sex. That people instinctively avoid death is a pointless example to give when talking about death vs. something else. Of course people avoid death. You're unduly privileging people's instinctual fear of death, without any room for anything else, simply because people have neural substrate that causes their minds to--usually--just go blank when contemplating, "what if I killed myself?".

Basically, the example that a person won't make a decision that would directly lead to their death given another option doesn't actually count in this sense, because the decision-making process is interrupted immediately by WRONG/NO/BAD when death enters the equation.

[–]fondueguy1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

and think that equates to an ultimate fear

I never even defined it as a fear. I'm just talking about peoples choices.

Choosing rape over death is a decisions people make over and over in all kinds of senarios. So any honest (realistic) kind of advocation should reflect that.

As in, it would be dishonest to say "I would rather be killed than raped" in a classroom setting (as one gains victim status) but every time you come to an actual real world decision you choose rape over death.

Would you want to be personally accountable for a person's rape? ...now, would you want to be personally accountable for a person's death?

Then you understand, people are defined by their choices.

decision-making process is interrupted immediately by WRONG/NO/BAD when death enters the equation

Then how could you possibly advocate your position? Do you have something other people don't? And, on what basis would you overide your own instinct? Last time you said it would be on the basis of pain vs pleasure. You had reduced the value of life to pain vs pleasure, along with giving you own cutoff level. But realize that this is reflective of your personal values. You can't project those values onto other people (99.99999%) who still have value in a life that is filled with some pain.

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[–][deleted]1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Being compelled by an instinct to act in a certain manner has no moral weight, bro. Otherwise date-rape would carry a softer penalty, and sending your kids to bed with no supper would be considered child abuse. That's what I've been saying. Tending to act in a manner of P(Action) = NotDie is how your brain functions; not a conscious choice. You're saying that they made a decision to act, revealing their intention, but their space of total decisions is circumscribed by the fact that we're programmed not to engineer our own demise. Therefore, the choice is meaningless. It's not whether it's rational or not; you're suggesting that the choice demonstrates something it simply does not.

Moreover, I have already addressed the fact that whatever mental killswitch, whatever piece of neural substrate it is that aborts thought processes for P(Action) = Die doesn't always function.

And finally, the examples of people choosing to fight rape actually supports my position that people actually do think rape is pretty terrible, and seek to avoid it, often dying in the process of doing so. They may have the instinct not to die, but like all instincts, that internal device is sublimated by values that hold primacy to instinct.

[–]fondueguy1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted]1 point 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It's my entire point. Everything I'm saying is propping up that idea, that your instincts hold less moral weight than your memories, values and codes. From there, we get to, "a person deciding to get raped instead of die is not sufficient evidence to suggest that death is worse than rape, and here's why." That's what it has to do with anything. The whole reason we're having this argument at this point is a disagreement on the moral weight of instinctual actions. I thought that was clear. How we got here is another story.

Really? You don't think so? Yet you think that the choice of rape over death is enough to suggest that an instinctual drive to not die means dying is worse than suffering for the rest of your life. Eating is as integral to continuing to live as not dying. Probably a bit more so, since eating tends to involve actually doing something. Not dying sometimes only involves not doing anything. I concede though, it was a silly example.

Well, essentially, yes, who and what we are is programmed into our brains. The things that make you you and not somebody else are a little bit higher up than your instincts. After all, they often tend to negate your instincts. And, much of the basic ways we value and measure life aren't a given. Apart from not liking to die, and tending to raise kids rather than leave them to the wild, there isn't much of an endemic set of values. Finally, most of the you is epigenetic traits anyway.

That all of our being can be reduced to the phsyicality of our neural substrate doesn't change the fact that instincts are regularly subverted in favor of loftier thoughts and concepts.

Also, don't misrepresent my statements by throwing in that "true self" stuff. I'm not advocating the idea, and it doesn't really have any bearing on what we're discussing here. I'm not talking about people acting in the manner of their "true selves"; I'm talking about the regular occurrence of people sublimating instinct. People do this because their morals or ethics compel them to. They value those more highly. That's why the little girl in Pakistan is killed in an attempted rape: her morals tell her death is far preferable to being sullied by the rape.

[–]FamnDamily-3 points 14 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[+]FamnDamily 14 years ago* [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

Change out "war" with something more specific like "battle" and I agree with you. Battle does not give one humanity. Its no more glorious to die on the battle field than to be minding your own business and dying in an attack on your own city.

However, I'd love if for once the warmongers in charge would take women seriously for a second as contributors to society and as capable human beings. The fact that I'm not allowed to register for the draft tells me that I'm weak, defenseless, incompetent, and that a young boy is better suited to serve than me.

And how shitty is that for you? The simple fact is that as a registered male, your chances of getting drafted (and subsequently killed) are more than doubled because women can't be drafted. That's not equal protection.

So then we get these pictures and these comments that say, "Women talk equality, but won't take on the responsibility of war. They're just sitting pretty on the beach," (as if women DON'T suffer during war) FOLLOWED IMMEDIATELY BY, "Don't you dare bitch about not being drafted! War is Hell!" So where the fuck do we win here?

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I am posting response to SeacrestHulk since for some reason my question as to whether it was a photo shoot or photo shop (before he posted his comment clarifying) was downvoted into oblivion:

FY there is more info here: http://mikebyrne.artistswanted.org/exposure2011

I see it as more subverting the medium of fashion photography (as the photographer is more of a fine-arts photographer) than any real statement on MRA (or as you put it "male privilege - I really do wish people would not editorialize their submissions like that.)

There is definitely a hard-hitting contrast between the serious and frivolous, but ultimately it's all phoney, as all participants are models in the fictional shoot, including the men. Then there's the image of sand/water as location - serving a dual ironic purpose of destruction/rebirth. I do see the series is playing on gender, but not in the ways that Seacrust_Hulk might think (based on his submission title of "male privilege.")

Anybody else got any thoughts? Would be cool if someone here could interview him about the set.

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I'd rather be killed than undergo what some of those women have had to suffer. It's not a pissing contest. War is absolutely horrifying for anyone who has direct contact with it.

Edit: Some of you might rather be tortured, I'd rather not. It applies to more than just this example, in my life--if I'm ever severely burned, I don't want to be kept alive in a painful, melted skin suit. If I were completely paralyzed, I'd be suiciding out not too long after. If I get a terrible disease, same thing. When you're dead, you're dead; if your level of suffering is greater than the good parts of being alive, I have no religious reason to not rather be dead. If I had the choice between a few years of torture or a quick bullet to the head (which I know no one ever does, but this a hypothetical), I'd rather take the bullet.

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Meh. Like I said, I don't think life is sacred. Yes, it's literally the be-all-end-all of existence, but, existence is pretty damn insignificant in the grand scheme of things. You're not suffering when you're dead.

It'll be different after I have children--if said children weren't dead, then I'd have a reason that staying alive would be worth it. But as I am right now? The mental scarring that would come with going through something like that would likely ruin the rest of my life, not to mention how shit life always is in a place that's been ravaged by war. It's not like you just sit and endure it and then everything goes back to normal. You endure it, and then it's over but everything is still terrible. Especially if it's one of those cases where they come in, kill all the men, torture all the women. Love of my life murdered before my eyes and then suffer PTSD the rest of my life? A lot of people never recover from that. Just from how hard it was for me to deal with a friend's suicide, I'm fairly confident that unless I had a damn good reason, life wouldn't be worth it after something so traumatic.

You're different. That's great. But that's why this shouldn't be treated as a pissing contest--you and I and everyone else in the world will all have different opinions on what is the worst possible thing. There are men and women who can walk away from their children without a care in the world; that doesn't mean that other parents feel the same. The stereotype of the unfeeling deadbeat dad is what led to people thinking "Ah who cares about him, we can't take custody away from the mother, they care more", which leads to a lot of male suicide. Some people can shrug off bullying, others can't and end up killing themselves.

You just can't quantify suffering.

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They have pursued it in the past. It is true that full elimination of the draft is not a high priority to most feminists now, but it is also fair to say that the draft is not a likely threat in the short term.

We tend to focus on this issue because it is low-hanging fruit; it should be very simple to make the selective services gender-neutral or eliminate it based on egalitarian logic. However, the reality is that it would be a high-profile national issue, and the egalitarian position would seem impractical to most people. Those arguing for the elimination would be dismissed as naive and not in support of a strong military. Those arguing for women to be included would be white-knighted to death for suggesting women be intentionally placed in danger, and then dismissed for "not understanding the realities of the front lines."

The arguments in favor of change are clear, but it would take a ton of the feminists' political capital to make the change, and it just isn't a pressing concern as long as the draft is unlikely.

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They aren't allowed in active combat roles in the U.S. (they are in many other countries: Australia, Germany, France, Canada, Italy... the list goes on). This, however, doesn't mean that women don't die in combat. They do, albeit not nearly as often as male U.S. soldiers. They can't be assigned as infantrymen legally, but they can be sent in as medics, MP, things like that.

I'm sorry to be nitpicky, but it's an important distinction to make (not necessarily for you, but so people reading this don't get the idea that every woman in the military is in a cushy job that involves very little danger.)

Of the 100 female service members who died: 97 were troops, and three were military civilian employees. 61 of them have been classified as hostile -- occurring during combat or enemy attacks -- and 39 have been non-hostile. 12 died in 2003, 19 in 2004, 20 in 2005, 15 in 2006, 27 in 2007 and seven this year.

http://articles.cnn.com/2008-07-24/world/iraq.main_1_diyala-nationalist-insurgent-group-baquba?_s=PM:WORLD

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Men going to war and women staying home used to make sense back before this century but not anymore. I respect anyone who chooses to go into the military both men and women. No one in any country should be forced. People shouldn't look down on men who don't want to serve in the military for whatever reason nor women who would. Women shouldn't be barred from some military job roles like they are in the UK. Also I'm sure it wasn't a walk in the park for women who stayed home during WW2. Many were involved in the war effort either directly (600,000 UK) as well as working, talking care of the kids and house while knowing their loved one would likely die. It's not necessary to demean women in order highlight men's problems. The issues are strong enough to stand on their own. I'm sure the feminists wouldn't be able to see past the way women are presented here in order understand the problem so an opportunity is lost.

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You obviously haven't been in the military....

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If introducing women removes efficiency, stability, or capability, then you have to ask this question of ethics: how many of our soldiers' lives is equality worth?

I think there's a point in comment threads like this where if you adequately delve into a debate you eventually arrive at some philosophical crossroads.

We're at the classic Kantian vs. Utilitarian debate, motive vs. results.

I can't tell you what's the right answer. I have never personally subscribed to utilitarianism because that's how we justify executing a few innocent people in order to ensure "justice," also how we stigmatize an entire gender in order to keep children safe from abuse. To me, it's the most flawed ethical construct that there is, and it is the fundamental crux that is often being refuted on this subreddit. To see it used this way is kind of hypocritical given the context.

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Phone is about to die, I'll try to remember to reply later.

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FY there is more info here: http://mikebyrne.artistswanted.org/exposure2011

I see it as more subverting the medium of fashion photography (as the photographer is more of a fine-arts photographer) than any real statement on MRA (or as you put it "male privilege - I really do wish people would not editorialize their submissions like that.)

There is definitely a hard-hitting contrast between the serious and frivolous, but ultimately it's all phoney, as all participants are models in the fictional shoot, including the men. Then there's the image of sand/water as location - serving a dual ironic purpose of destruction/rebirth. I do see the series is playing on gender, but not in the ways that Seacrust_Hulk might think (based on his submission title of "male privilege.")

Anybody else got any thoughts? Would be cool if someone here could interview him about the set.

[–]megazen -5 points-4 points-3 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	Male Privilege.
Author	Seacrest_Hulk
Upvotes	535
Comments	425
Date	May 23, 2012 6:03 PM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/u1bys/male_privilege/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/male-privilege.1021228 https://theredarchive.com/post/1021228

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