Do women really believe that toxic masculinity is the common factor of sexless lonely men?

Casueeesbeli · 2023-12-10T13:24:02+00:00

I saw in two x chromosome a post about sexless men and the most upvoted post was " those men are only sexless because of there toxic masculinity...

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Exactly. I was socially awkward and insecure in high school, no thanks to COVID, and so were most of my friends. Nothing drives women away like that combination and sure as shit we were all virgins. I got to college and knew I had to do something, so I made the “only rational” choice and pledged a frat to compensate... it more or less worked and I’ve been a brother for a year now, and I’ve seen a lot. Just like you’d expect, frat boys run through women by being as toxic as possible. A lot of them are intentionally doing it and brag about it because of how well it works. Ghosting, negging, lying, playing games, etc. It’s fucked up but it’s true. Confidence carries hard, and dark triad traits are irresistible to (some) women, especially since most guys now are afraid to even approach girls. I will say that it’s become apparent to me a lot of struggling guys overemphasize height/looks. There is an obvious benefit the more attractive you are, but as long as a man is a little above average overall and well put together, confidence and charisma are often the deciding factor. The guy I know with the most bodies is 5’7, not a male model or anything either, and I know a 6’1 prettyboy that’s 20yo virgin and struggling to get a girlfriend because he’s bad at small talk and eye contact.

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I don’t think any of you guys know what the fuck toxic masculinity means.

It’s wild to see so many people bitch about something they don’t even know about.

Toxic masculinity is when men enforce what they believe to be the correct masculine traits on other men, which harms both men and women.

It’s literally this forum, where everyone here reinforces the idea that women only like “chads” and if you aren’t a chad, you don’t have a chance.

That’s toxic masculinity.

Women pointing out shitty behavior is just that - pointing out that you are a shitty person.

Words mean things.

Misandry is when a woman dislikes men because they are men.

Further, This is just more of the “but I’m a nice guy so I deserve sex” not these assholes. Thinking you deserve sex for being a decent person MAKES you a SHITTY person.

You being a shitty person is a YOU trait, and no one is out here saying that all men are like you - ie: shitty.

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[–]shesarevolution 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I’m not angry, so let’s get that out of the way.

You had no idea what you are talking about and so I told you. I dumbed down what toxic masculinity means, because you were wrong. I used the Royal version of “you” as I was addressing what you said. I did not mean “you” as in who you are.

I know it hurts when a woman makes you look like the retard you actually are, but if you are going to post things, it would behoove you to actually know what you are talking about. I mean, hey, cool, if you enjoy looking stupid, by all means, continue.

You really shouldn’t smugly predict who I am. You just really look dumb. I’m trying to help you here. Looking like a moron won’t get you laid. You’re not attractive enough, so you have to offer something else to women. If you’re both dumb and ugly - well, that’s the makings of a 45 year old virgin. I mean I would hope you would just end it before when you reach like 40, but maybe you enjoy suffering.

You know what is funny? That you automatically assumed that I was angry. Do you know how much dumb shit I come across on Reddit? You think this post was enough to set me off? Please. You’re the one with main character syndrome. You think your opinion matters enough for me to spazz out. You read my words in that manner because you had already decided I was big hurt. I thought that men weren’t driven by emotion? Where’s that logic you guys constantly say you have? You wanted to feel smug, you needed an ego boost because I mean, look at you. So you thought you would put me in my place.

Then you made up some silly scenario in your head about why I was angry. But I wasn’t. This is just an intellectual exercise for me. I know I am not changing any minds here, and I know any point I make is downvoted, because I’m a woman. I’m here because I pay attention to cultural movements as it relates to my job.

So right - you decided what scenario would both make me feel bad, and make you feel better, because that’s why all of you guys are here, right? To make yourselves feel better about the fact that no woman wants you. Well, what would make a woman feel awful about herself? Oh right, a guy that she really likes ghosting her. Haha, now a woman knows how it feels!!! It’s telling of who you are as a person. You automatically assumed I hate men, and I was correcting you because you are a man.

I don’t hate men, not even close. I hate stupidity. So I let you know that you aren’t as bright as you think you are. I’d say that to anyone, man, woman, whomever.

Anyway, this has gotten long, because I write complete thoughts. I know that you all don’t have the capacity to read much.

For the record, I’m in my 40’s. I have a boyfriend. I have not been ghosted because I am not insufferable. And, I come on Reddit when I’m stoned. It’s gotta suck that even high, I still am more intelligent than you.

If I were you - I wouldn’t go into psychology. You’re fucking terrible at it.

[–]Casueeesbeli[S] 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

" You shouldn't really smugly predict who i am?" Are you being for real right now? Seriously? You did exactly that. Okey ask yourself this.. You are the only one of al the women i have written to that it has become this nasty.. Why is that? Is it a me thing? No the other 25 women didn't seem to think that? So it most be a you thing right?

I don't know how you feel or what your emotions is , that's right. But you are using words and being shitty when no else felt the need to be shitty. So i assumed something most be going on with you, but maybe you are just always shitty.

So according to you the only right definition of toxic masculinity is thinking only "chads" are the ones who get to have sex.. Okey that's a very specific and very strange reason as the ONLY definition of toxic masculinity . Especially since there is other women who has written different definition then you.. But again everyone is an idiot expect you. I never once argued that i know a specific detention of Toxic Masculinity, i actually did the opposite and asked because i think its a very broad term.

Google what is the definition of toxic masculinity and it will say " Well the highly educated and person who coined the term "shesarevolution" said the definition is guys who think only "chads " can get laid " .

I do think its strange when it exist men who beat women use violence and see women as sex objects, that's not toxic masculinity , but guys who sits home and are depressed complaining about not being able to find love/sex/gf that is toxic masculinity .

I never said you hated men.. I never said anything about you until you did about me . I certainly didn't say or imply anything about your fucking sex life haha but you keep on rambling about those stuff.

So when you smoke some weed your first instinct is to go and argue with people online ? Haha you have subs like Beamazed or Natureisfuckinglit but this is your go to.. What is your job ? Being a blogger ? Or let me guess a " journalist " ? . I would love to read those articles . I assume its some digging highly intellectual Pulitzer prize stuff? Not you average feminist click bait shitty stuff that no one even falls for anymore.

EDIT: From your reddit profil your biggest interested seemed to be a fucking makeup subreddit and Kylie Jenner Hahahaa, you 40?

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I think, as with everything, it's a matter of balance. When it comes to sex for example, a lot of women have no issue saying that they enjoy or fantasize about a dominant man. Look at all the romance novels. Of course there are very sweet guys, but also a LOT of stories about dominant men. However, sexual desires are one thing, practical and domestic things are another. I absolutely believe that men can be dominant in bed and still not sexist assholes outside of it. My partner is such a man. People simply should take the extremes as their anchor points for their arguments. A lot of women want a man who is both dominant and egalitarian, depending on the situation. You can dominate your woman in bed and still do the dishes.

I agree though, that women can be more explicit in what they want, I suspect that a lot of women also fall into this black and white thinking, thinking that they need to sacrifice their wish for a sexually dominant man if they want to have an egalitarian relationship. But men aren't stupid or one-dimensional. They are perfectly capable of fucking you tired, cuddle with you and whisper sweet nothings into your ear, and participate in cleaning the apartment with you on Saturdays. I should know, I have that with my partner.

As with everything, it's a balance and I feel that ego on both sides prevents people from dancing the dance between male and female. Men feel emasculated by the smallest things, women get insulted by the smallest things, e.g. by harmless crude jokes. Idk if it's a cultural thing but what happened to just rolling your eyes in amusement if your man makes a lame, sexist joke infront of his friends, when everyone in attendance knows that he doesn't actually mean it and when you know exactly how he actually is at home and in private with you?

Okay, I'm ranting now but I think a lot of issues boil down to people having a thick stick up their asses, just in regards to different things, men and women. I'm a Millenial, so a bit older, but I don't remember that we've been so uptight when we first showed interest in the opposite sex as teens.

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I’m curious what they mean by “dominant.” Is “dominance” desirable in most facets of life? I’d argue no. Most of our society is built upon teamwork, social skills, collaboration. So it’s less being dominant, and more knowing when and how to take control of a situation when it is warranted, but also how to sit back and let whomever was elected to lead in a given scenario do their job, and be an influential person without dominating at those times.

Which is also instilled in most people in football. You’re not the coach, or the quarterback (most of the time). You need to get told the route to run, or who to block, and rely on the others to block their man or run their respective route or throw their ball. When it’s time for you to make that play though, it’s time to step up, show force, be performant. I would say hit somebody but I don’t want to associate the analogy with expressions of violence.

God damn I just hyped myself up a little bit

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Ah here it is again, the old emotional trope where I’m big mad at you, so I attacked you, and then you tell me to calm down because I’m acting like a woman with all my fee fees.

Once again, I didn’t attack you personally. I said that your thesis is wrong. You again, decided that you know the psychology behind all feminist women. Remember how I told you that you really shouldn’t go into psychology? This is what I mean. It’s cool though that you did just openly admit that you saw my SN here and decided you had me all figured out. Oh shit! You thought I was too dumb to understand what game you are playing.

I said that feminism means being equal to men. The statement you made was that “The Feminist woman who hates herself because she’s attracted to dominant men…”

Why would a woman hate herself for that? If you mean feminist women are attracted to men who treat them like they’re dumb and beneath them, you clearly don’t understand feminism. There’s no reverse psychology going on here. Feminism means equality. A feminist is not going to long for a man to put her in her place. It just doesn’t happen. Once again, words mean things.

And if you mean dominant man in a sexual manner, why would a woman hate herself for what she likes in bed? Women like all kinds of things - it’s very much a personal preference. Most adults who have sex know that sex within a relationship does not define a person’s political beliefs, or anything else. As a person who does fuck and is a terrible terrible feminist, I don’t hate myself for letting my partner dominate me. It’s something I like. And I also dom him. We do whatever we want, there’s no greater meaning. He’s most certainly not some beta bitch. His masculinity isn’t being challenged because I make him beg and plead. He loves it. He builds shit for a living. He listens to black metal for fun. He’s the incel definition of masculinity. Good sex, there should be longing and desire. There should be frustration. Because when you get what you want, it’s a million times better.

But sure, i guess I am big hurt because I was ghosted by a non-existent man. Do you grasp how stupid you look yet?

[–]Casueeesbeli[S] 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Again huh? I never said you are emotional because you are a women or even implied that? It was the fact that you reacted to this post with different words, attitude and went personal when the 25 other women who made a post didn't? That was my point

" . The statement you made was that “The Feminist woman who hates herself because she’s attracted to dominant men…” Wtf!?.. When did i make that statement ? You are using quotes like i wrote that? Not only did i not write that .. i didn't even implied that... and i don't think that is true in a general sense at al.. Like wtf are you talking about ?

I said in a sense from my experience i have seen some feminist women who date guys that are non political .. They rather be with some non political dude who might be into more "simple" stuff then politics or society rather then date some center right wing dude who might have more of intellectual interest.

, I don’t hate myself for letting my partner dominate me. It’s something I like. And I also dom him. We do whatever we want, there’s no greater meaning. He’s most certainly not some beta bitch. His masculinity isn’t being challenged because I make him beg and plead. He loves it. He builds shit for a living. He listens to black metal for fun. He’s the incel definition of masculinity. Good sex, there should be longing and desire. There should be frustration. Because when you get what you want, it’s a million times better.

Haha wtf ..Why on gods green earth are you talking about your sexlife ? What does that afto do with anything in my post? " I don’t hate myself for letting my partner dominate me. " I think you do a bit .. And thats why you write about it? I dont understand why you are rambling about your sexlife in my post?

I only went personal because you went personal when 25 other women didn't.. Again are you unique in a bad way or in a good way? Because 25 other women didn't respond like you did..

[–]Casueeesbeli[S] 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Hahah it took me like 6 post to find out you saying that you " are special kind of snowflake" . I knew it.. What makes you special huh? I never do this but you annoyed me so much i look into your posts and you seem like the most typical woke no real degree very stupid living in a bubble women.

You al think you have a degree in psychology for some reason.

You al exist in this same bubble that made you obsessed with Elon and thinking he is some devil..For what? (what's the difference between him and Bezos or some other rich dude? )

You constantly are obsessed with subs about depressed ugly low status men and you always talk about there misongy but i never see you write anything about lets say rappers and there misongy? What about Kylie Jenner boyfriends asap rocky and his misongy .. Why do you guys never bring up that ? Because he is a cool good looking man ? Btw imagine being over 17 and having Kylie Jenner has intellectual curiosity... Omg who is Kylie dating now.

Lol politician aka im to dumb to get some sort of degree but i want to be more then some women that get supported by here boyfriend. I bet you are one of those left wing people that couldn't tell me anything about strikes thats happening right now in America. You care about make up and gossiping about Kylie Jenner and like can you imagine the difference of intelligence between you and Elon ? You couldn't degree in something real if your life depended on it. You are not an intellectual , you are the opposite..

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Your first statement is true. And what is funny about that is that 1k of people in that women subreddit are wrong according to any women including you this far. That maybe means that feminist women are a bit inclined to say stuff about sexless men that is not true because they don't feel comfortable with the reality .

There is no thing that explains it al that's right . But if we afto find some common stuff it wouldn't be toxic masculinity right? That's something we can agree on.. So that's stupid for 1 k people to say.? Why do they say it?

How can you notice a thing with a person you don't interact with? The more likely answer is . Those men are only sexless because of there looks , social skills and social status . That's waaaay more likely then because of there toxic masculinity , so why do they say stuff like that? Well again it is because in the last 15 years you feminist women have been very uncomfortable with what has been to shown the reality of the sexless man .

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Huh are you okey? Talking over .. We are having a discussion about this subject ? That's literally what this sub is for? You don't seem to be very bright or right in the head... Like the whole point of this sub is this discussion .

Why are you saying that like al women have the same view point on this subject? Like clearly you can tell from the answers i have gotten that they don't all agree. Because the women at two x chromosome seemed to think the common factor was toxic masculinity .. From the first answers i got from women they clearly hade a different viewpoint then that? They said it was more like social isolation and so on?

I hate doing this because just like people who struggle don't get to have a viewpoint but i got a girlfriend. Are you popular with men ? Alot of guys that want to be your boyfriend? Either you very young or stupid because the whole point of this sub is discussion like this .

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Ofc but it was the most upvoted post there with 1 k likes. That was kind of my point.. No i don't think that's opinion of al women, that would be insane. That's why i asked in my post and i didn't make a statement? The flair is literally a question..

I think you are being a bit dishonest here because i actually did the exact opposite. I asked if that was actually what some of women in this subbed thought was the common factor . Haha i love that you write " i would like to see men " . You are accusing me of lumping in al women thinking al the same then in the next sentence you said "i whish men " aka you are lumping in al men..Haha thats hilarious no? I dont know what Fresh N Fit is sorry. I went from like i said in my post ,from what i read in the most upvoted post in two x chromosome . Do i think that's the opinion of al women? Ofc not because i don't think al the women of the western world was responding to that post in two x chromosome .. You are being very dishonest..

And btw its good that you don't think that's a common factor! Good job! Well done .. Again i say it i think there as been alot of change of the views these last 3 year of what the sexless man is and that is good! I also think if you are on this sub you would probably be more educated then lets say if you spend time on some other sub like two x chromones or feminst sub.. But again that is a good thing! Thas how we create less hate and Andrew Tates in the world :)

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Before the Redpill turned into its current Blackpill state, it wasn't just ancedote examples.

It was guys from all over sharing notes and discussing things, then noticing patterns.

Same with PUA which came before it.

If its all a load of bad crap, then why did guys find so much success after realising they needed to change from what BluePilled dudes, simps and AFCs were advertising, and also the advice of women in regard to dating as a man.

I'm not saying its an absolute truth, but there is some truth.

The fact PUA went from "Hahaha, thats stupid" to "Hmmm maybe people shouldn't be doing this" to "That works but its wrong".

Like lots of things from PUA were classed as stupid. Yet now, things like push-pull, hot-cold, etc, the response is "Thats just flirting, you shouldn't need a guide on that".

So which is it, is it dumb and manipulative or is it just flirting?

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You can doubt it all you like.

Look I wasn't born into the RedPill.

I spent a lot of my life quite BP'd and it was pretty crap to be totally honest.

Then someone introduced me to PUA. And things got better.

But it was very counter intuitive, like why do I need to be with other women for women to find me attractive. When the general advice at the time was "Just be thyself" with no context. Yeah I am happy being myself now, but at the time I didn't understand it, so it was useless advice.

Anyway, after the PUA scene, a lot of guys online started asking "Why" does this wierd shit work. Thus TRP was born.

Living with that as a mindset, for me at least has made my life better. Better than the Bluepill shit I believed anyway. "Its the personality that counts, you don't need to goto the gym". Yeah its all a load of BS.

So yeah I have tried living with RedPill beliefs and BluePill beliefs.

Obviously I have chucked other stuff in, self love, hypnosis, gratitude, etc.

Again, none of this stuff can be actually tested. If you love yourself, others will love you back. Its just a belief full of ancedotal evidence. But hey it works for me.

So yeah, if someone suggests an even more successful mindset, then cool show me some field reports and sign me up.

All that said, the current state of the Manosphere with the Blackpill and Incels is dark times. But it is what it is.

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That first sentence is true and that's why tribalism and identity politics is very dangerous . The forces you are talking about is actually in most cases i think the average feminist women not being able to acknowledge the fact why some men are sexless. Its not simply being single , is the reason that young man is reading why he is single. Imagine yourself you are reading that the only reason why you are sexless is because of your " toxic masculinity " when you are not. And you see your bully who actually have "toxic masculinity " have no problems finding sex. That will lead to anger against feminist and women right?

If you was raised with traits of "toxic masculinity" you will most likely fight back and the bullying will stop or it will lead to some other path in life ( being a criminal ) . The reaction to being bullied to be a "loser" sitting home and playing video games ( most likely early life outcome of becoming an incel) is actually a reaction when you have less traits of "toxic masculinity "

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Haha wow .. So you would say that men who commit violent crimes and make music about how they see women as hoes and how they use violence is not toxic masculinity?

But a depressed dude who never used violence in his life but complain online that girls ask him about his height on tinder is toxic masculinity ?

" Im a real man i knock you out if you fuck with me look at al my stuff ,yes i have hoes blowing up my phone, but they are only hoes dont give shit about them" Thats not toxic masculinity.

"Fuck i wish the dating market was not so hard for young men , i would really like to meet someone for love and affection " Thats toxic masculinity ?

Like common what are we doing here... If you ever wondered why so many educated young soft men don't like feminism nowadays your answer is the reason why.

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I have a legitimate question.

Why would you as a person want to lower your own values - if you aren’t a misogynist, why would you want to be like one?

Because shitty men get sex?

Isn’t integrity worth something?

Isn’t a true sign of masculinity when someone has the ability to stand for what they believe in, even if it’s not easy?

Because that takes a lot of guts and self esteem. It takes confidence. And confidence in a man is attractive.

If your one and only goal is to get your dick wet, then yeah, I guess having no value system will work. For a bit, until it becomes known that all you care about is getting your dick wet.

Men who only care about getting their dicks wet arent very good lovers. They just aren’t. Women talk. We know when someone is a fuckboy. It’s not a compliment.

I would think that a true man would want to do everything he can to get a woman off, because men who do will often get more sex.

[–]Omegeddon 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]olqunesPurple Pill Man - red-leaning 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Why would you as a person want to lower your own values - if you aren’t a misogynist, why would you want to be like one?

Because shitty men get sex?

If you are personally asking me, I wouldnt. Getting sex is not something I desire so badly, at least not anymore after seeing what it takes and how it works, that I would change my values for it.

If you are asking generally. Because it works.

Isn’t integrity worth something?

not in this case.

Isn’t a true sign of masculinity when someone has the ability to stand for what they believe in, even if it’s not easy?

not for most women.

I guess having no value system will work. For a bit, until it becomes known that all you care about is getting your dick wet. Men who only care about getting their dicks wet arent very good lovers. They just aren’t. Women talk. We know when someone is a fuckboy. It’s not a compliment.

not a problem if you live in a big enough place, also plenty of women love fuckboys, it would just be free advertisement.

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So, I'd probably approach it a little differently because I generally see masculinity as like a constellation of traits which can be expressed in different ways and at different levels but are generally seen more expressed that way in men. Put simply, I'd mostly go by the big five.

And the toxic element would be something like, expressing big five traits associated with masculinity in levels or degrees which are toxic either to the man himself and/or society at large.

From this, it's actually not hard to see how they could suggest that your classic unsocialized, bullied, basement dweller male cliche is technically toxically masculine. They're over expressing trait disagreeability, low conscientiousness, low extraversion. I think people see them as toxically feminine because their trait neuroticism is typically quite high...but I'd suggest they're expressing that in a somewhat masculine way too.

With that said, of course the classic domineering sociopathic bad boy bully fits toxic masculinity as well, he's just expressing these same masculine tendencies in the more classic way that's over the top, but typically lower neuroticism.

But having said all this, I really doubt two x chromosomes was thinking this hard about it, and really they just use toxic masculinity as a fit in for "misogyny" or "any anti woman sentiment". And you know, they probably aren't super off to say that, but the more I've hung out, the more I think a lot of the misogyny of the rejected basement dweller is just self loathing projected outwards as a vent so they don't self-harm.

Which, I suppose, ultimately, I'd rather men say unkind and untrue things about women than harm themselves. Words are bad, but not quite as bad as physical actions.

If you're asking what I think, yeah, I mean they're men right, how could it be anything but some form of toxic masculinity? With that said, I'm not convinced it's actually misogyny. Could be, but the more I live here, the more I think this is a self-devoring male.

[–]pop442No Pill 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]MistyMaiselFEMALE -1 points0 points1 point 2 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I haven't met many perpetually single women. The ones I have met are better described as neurotic messes or extremely high maintenance or both. I wouldn't say rude bitches tend to be perpetually single, they're the bad boy of the female world. And yes, they are tragically toxic people. Toxic isn't evil, it's toxic. They're headcases.

Not really, I don't think you really read what I wrote. I think you got triggered and started shrieking.

I'm not thinking the worst. I think most single men are headcases and toxically masculine, just in a different way than everyone thinks of because they got their lunch money taken.

I also said I didn't think most of you are misogynists so try again. I think it is agreed women who cannot get dates have awful personalities, the man hating thing not so much although that could be a component.

[–]pop442No Pill 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I haven't met many perpetually single women.

Sounds like you're speaking from a place of privilege then. There's many perpetually single women and lonely women and they ironically complain about other women like you writing off their existence funnily enough.

I think you got triggered and started shrieking.

Nah. This sub ain't that important lol.

I'm not thinking the worst. I think most single men are headcases and toxically masculine, just in a different way than everyone thinks of because they got their lunch money taken.

But how are you even reaching these conclusions?

Is it because you live in a shithole full of awful single guys and basing your opinion off of your bubble?

There's millions of men who are single ranging from high n-count guys, virgins, divorced men, rich bachelor men, broke unemployed men, middle class men, educated men, tradesmen, etc.

Silicon Valley has a big epidemic of single men due to the skewed gender ratio in the Bay Area. Does that mean techies there are more toxic than men in rural areas who get married off at 19 years old?

I'm not sure how you can lump them together as "toxic" when many of them don't even share the same experiences in the slightest.

I also said I didn't think most of you are misogynists so try again.

I'm not single.

I think it is agreed women who cannot get dates have awful personalities, the man hating thing not so much although that could be a component.

Even though it took you long, you finally gave me a direct answer to my question.

So, if I'm reading you correctly, you're implying that dating for both genders is a meritocracy and a matter of Survival Of The Fittest and those who struggle to date are more likely to have terrible personalities and toxic mindsets even without factoring in appearances.

It's funny that so many women on here claim to be liberal or Leftist but turn into Archie Bunker and Alex Keaton when it comes to discussing single men lol.

[–]MistyMaiselFEMALE 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I didn't say I'd met none, I said I hadn't met many. I acknowledge their existence while also acknowledging there aren't so many of them. Clearly, they must exist in order for me to have reached some sort of opinion on them and why they are that way (basket cases).

***

A combination of observation and applying academic fields to that observation.

Not at all, I'd never assume my bubble must be reality, I'm an armchair anthropologist of the single lonely goose. I go based off of everything around me and online and so forth.

Yes, and the quality they all share in common (besides presumably a penis) is that they are all suffering (assuming they want a relationship) from toxic masculinity or put more bluntly, fucked-in-the-head-syndrome.

Yes, typically techies are exactly what I mentioned. Even the high-performing well paid ones. I've known several and seen others I don't know. It's kind of interesting for people to be so successful, smart, and creative while also being so toxic and basket-cased. Real interesting dynamic, what came first, the chicken or the egg even.

It's pretty simple, you watch how they operate, what they say, what they want, and their personalities, and you see the toxicness of it. Which in many cases just amounts to it being poorly deployed either in society or in themselves.

***

When I use you, I'm almost always using the editorial you (not you in specific, but the subjects under scrutiny. I dunno you. You could be great or awful or a woman or an alien). Apologies for this not being more clear.

***

It didn't take me so long, it was right at the front of my statement.

***

Dating is clearly a meritocracy, yes. Is it survival of the fittest? I guess kind of although it would be quite difficult to pin down what counts as fittest or merit exactly (we can broadly generalize).

And yes, clearly, people struggling to date are more often inflicted with terrible personalities (not evil nor immoral, just terrible based on their inability to function within society or to obtain their goals.) And yes, clearly, this will often spring from toxic mindsets, which may not even necessarily be entirely their fault (often an over-response to environmental stimulus.)

I don't pretend to be liberal or leftist. Nor do I think anything I'm saying is particularly conservative since I'm not really assigning any sort of particular values other than to say "clearly, what they're working with isn't what society or individuals want, and it's a pretty diverse knife fight out there".

[–]pop442No Pill 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I didn't say I'd met none, I said I hadn't met many. I acknowledge their existence while also acknowledging there aren't so many of them. Clearly, they must exist in order for me to have reached some sort of opinion on them and why they are that way (basket cases).

That's the same thing though. It's the classic "I haven't seen it so it must not be a real thing."

It just goes to show how undesirable and lonely women are invisible to both men and women alike.

Not at all, I'd never assume my bubble must be reality, I'm an armchair anthropologist of the single lonely goose. I go based off of everything around me and online and so forth.

Same here. And I just so happen to hail from the largest metropolitian area of the country(Tri-State) while currently living in the 4th largest city in the country(Houston). And I have many friends, coworkers, and family who I communicate with on the regular so I not only "touch grass", but I ran through the whole field.

Yes, and the quality they all share in common (besides presumably a penis) is that they are all suffering (assuming they want a relationship) from toxic masculinity or put more bluntly, fucked-in-the-head-syndrome.

This is a terrible assumption to make though on such a widespread demographic. It'd be like some manosphere guy saying that most single women are bitter cat ladies with too much baggage. These men I mentioned generally have nothing in common.

You think a divorced 44 year old man with an office job has more in common with an 20 year old unemployed neckbeard than the average 44 year old married man?

That's fucking insane lol. It's like you don't have any real life experiences talking to or befriending different types of men who are single. The average single man isn't even a virgin ffs. They're usually just guys who haven't found the right girl yet for a LTR or marriage.

And lmao at thinking that there aren't tons of men with "toxic masculinity" who have girlfriends and wives.

According to every credible study ever put out on anti-female violence and femicide, the vast majority of it is driven by intimate partners.

Violence against women (who.int)

Statistics (ncadv.org)

Dating is clearly a meritocracy, yes. Is it survival of the fittest? I guess kind of although it would be quite difficult to pin down what counts as fittest or merit exactly (we can broadly generalize).

Dating requires work but it isn't fully a meritocracy. Plenty of broke bums get women simply because they were born with good genetics or found specific subgroups of women who would tolerate their BS. And plenty of successful men struggle because of their appearances. Also, extroverts will always have a natural advantage over introverts.

Also, if the "best" people get relationships then how do you explain the high divorce rates in the West?

I don't pretend to be liberal or leftist. Nor do I think anything I'm saying is particularly conservative since I'm not really assigning any sort of particular values other than to say "clearly, what they're working with isn't what society or individuals want, and it's a pretty diverse knife fight out there".

It's literally textbook bootstrap conservatism lol.

Let me reword your own argument just so you can see where I'm coming from.

"The free market and economy is perfectly fine. Anybody can become successful and middle-upper class through hard work and dedication. The working class and poor are mostly lazy and want to take advantage of the system. That's why they're not middle-upper class."

This is literally verbatim your argument against single guys just paraphrased to instead speak on the working class and the poor.

According to you, any man who isn't in a successful LTR simply needs to take a few more showers or work on their personality and they'll find a stable or long lasting marriage or LTR in no time lol.

[–]Casueeesbeli[S] 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

That's a great response.. I would say its a big difference that no one wants to be that loser incel dude, there is no upside to it. A lot of guys want to be that bad boy coke dealer because there is a lot of good things coming with that for a young boy in his mind.. Girls , cash, respect from other people. And how do you become that ? Well with using violence.. How do most incels start there life ? Getting bullied by other men with violence.

Also i don't think its true that most sexless men is having those traits that you describe . Some are just normal shy dudes that are bellow average looking, that's enough today to become a sexless man. But if we agree about the two types of toxic masculinity yet there is one of those types that have no problem finding sex and one type that have trouble finding sex. So the common factor is not toxic masculinity ? The common factor is other stuff?

I will also add this. I remember one time i saw this post about an asian man speaking about asian men sexuality in the western world. He was not at al hateful or speaking in anti women way. Now the white feminist women got so mad and called him incel and so on. But objectively speaking is it really good in a modern society that some groups of people are consider more manly or handsome ? Shouldn't western women work on that? Are you an incel for suggesting that?

So i would say that denial of some aspect of the modern dating market by the modern feminist have contributed to the anger and hate some men feel. If we truly want to make guys like Andrew Tate less popular we need to get better on both sides. We cant just put al the free will on the shy bullied nerdy guy to change.

[–]MistyMaiselFEMALE 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

The idea that all toxic masculinity is created the same doesn't seem to be implied by the term. There's still some component of free will and agency here, right? One man's toxic is successful and fuckable, but generally makes him a much much worse person bordering on evil. Another's makes him unsuccessful unfuckable, but not inherently anything outside of perhaps boring, certainly not evil although bitterness can move him there with time.

Most incels start their life getting bullied and then allowing that to define them. Lots of people get bullied without building an origin story or a personality around it. That's where I see a hint of that big five masculinity turned toxic.

I accept you don't think that, I don't think the sexless men I've encountered are anything I'd describe as average or normal. And statistically, this checks out, average normal men have sex and dates. They don't. They literally cannot in some sense be normal or average. We can pretend this is all looks, but I suppose there, I'd have to say i don't buy in. I've talked to these dudes and the neurotic and other issues are instantly obvious. Again, not evil and not necessarily misogynists, just toxic.

Asian men have a different grind because they're seen as feminine or simply unattractive by the vast majority of women. I think in turn that rendered them at young ages into a behavior pattern of the second kind of toxic masculinity. I don't pretend an environment can't shape people.

Again, different kinds of toxic masculinity. The idea that because it doesn't stop one sub group it isn't the thing holding the other back doesn't logically add up. It's all toxic masculinity, some is just more successful than others. Different strains, think covid. One kills, the other is a light cough.

I'm not actually sure, my instinct is that it is neither good nor bad that some things are more manly or handsome. They just are. What people do is what determines things. And no, I don't think women should work to stop wanting manliness or handsomeness. I think that suggestion isn't woman hating, it's self hating. It's rejection of a standard based on believing ones self incapable of meeting it.

I don't think women should change. Bullies should and usually do, but the ones who don't should. And yes, ultimately, the onus is on shy bullied guys to stop making that their life story. Or don't and rot in the toxic mess of their own minds. I can't stop um. Just diagnose.

[–]Casueeesbeli[S] 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]MistyMaiselFEMALE 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

It is the reason they are single based on what I've said, actually on two counts really. They were bullied typically physically (toxic masculinity) and in response to this trauma, they became overly obsessive, focused, anti-social, and a number of other traits which are toxically masculine.

I don't care if men are turned away because they cannot look past a feminist talking point to recognize that you can hate feminists and what they do while taking some of their ideas seriously (I do it all the time). And they aren't entirely lost in the weeds with this idea of toxic masculinity, they just need to hone it down some and stop using it to bludgeon men so much as a device to frame how we need to improve both individual men and society which rewards this behavior in all genders.

It does do all of that. It also does more. I'm personally more interested in the more, but I recognize that stopping bullies is probably a good thing too.

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What would you say the common factors are ? Looks , social skills and social status ? Is that fair for a broad generalization ?

You really think so? I think most of those men are just venting and are angry and alot of them have gived up hope of finding love/sex/gf .

If you are some loser who sits and play computer al time and never talk to women i think you know that you are the problem. Just that they are angry about there situation and they don't know how to solve it.

Then they get feed toxic stuff like Andrew Tate. But i do think the other side is to blame a bit as well. I remember when a doc was released about sexless men and i saw articles from feminist that said we simply shouldn't talk about that stuff , its alt right propaganda. Telling some bullied sexless kind nerd he is only sexless because of his toxic masculinity will obliviously make that person very angry when he sees the local bad boy drug dealer have no problem finding women. So its better to have a realistic view about sexless men to decrease the toxic stuff like Andrew Tate

[–]Casueeesbeli[S] 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]iwillprobneverusePurple Pill Woman 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

I'd say I agree, to some extent.

There's certainly men who never had a girlfriend because the were awful, and I think this has caused most women to assume that.

But I think we also all knew a guy at school, maybe a few of them. Who w9uld just insult other women, or act in incredibly sexist ways. They'd claim it came from being ignored by women (at age 14 or something) and would nott listen to a single woman about how they were messing up for themselves. Often I'd say it's probs the first guy who makes a woman feel uncomfortable, or that they rule out quickest for their actions.

So to a woman they see them as being the typical virgin.

They are wrong in sayi8ng its what causes virgins, but being toxic is also a a reason someone would choose not to be with someone so they aren't wrong either

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I think men, if we are generalizing, tend to be a lot more forgiving of toxic traits in someone they are regularly having sex with.

I totally disagree. I've seen plenty of women sleep with, date, or even live with toxic or even abusive guys just because they found them attractive or charismatic.

I’m not assigning a moral value to either scenario, but that’s what I have observed with male vs female straight friends.

I think you're still evading the question though will all due respect.

If women can assume that men who struggle to date are more toxic and problematic on average, I fail to see how this logic wouldn't extend to women who are perpetually single or struggle to date. Are you not alluding to dating being a meritocracy in this regard?

Or are you implying that both taken/married men and women are less likely to be toxic and problematic people than single men?

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Not dodging, I just don’t think it’s a simple yes or no question. I do not think being toxic is the only contributing factor to someone being unable to get dates, but I do think it is a contributing factor. For men I think the amount of social skill is very important. A man who is toxic but able to hide it and knows how to be charming is likely to be successful a good amount of the time. Especially because women are often on guard and it is easy to feel a man is “creepy” when he is lacking in social skills. I have never known a woman who entered into a relationship with an abuser knowing that they were an abuser. Abuse starts small and increases and there are other factors that make it difficult to leave. I think physical attractiveness is also another pretty big factor. A man who is ugly is going to have more trouble, especially if he is not socially skilled or is clearly angry at women.

I do think it’s accurate that a large number of men who are perpetually single have misogynistic views and a lot of anger/dislike toward women. But I don’t think that’s usually the original reason those guys have trouble getting dates, I think it’s a symptom of it. It’s easy to get angry and bitter if you are not having success with something. Especially if you view yourself as being entitled to women’s attention or to sex, which some men definitely do. But then once they have started to have those feelings and views it makes it even harder for them to date. Sometimes the views are engrained by family and culture so they might play a bigger role in the original trouble with dating and other times it might come later due to anger and frustration, but it is a factor a lot of the time in my experience.

No I don’t think married people are less toxic on a whole than single people. I think they have other characteristics that mask the toxicity enough that they can have success dating or they were lucky having an early relationship work out and never had to play the field.

[–]pop442No Pill 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

For men I think the amount of social skill is very important. A man who is toxic but able to hide it and knows how to be charming is likely to be successful a good amount of the time. Especially because women are often on guard and it is easy to feel a man is “creepy” when he is lacking in social skills.

I actually agree with this.

Extroversion is social makeup for men. I say this as an extrovert myself.

I think physical attractiveness is also another pretty big factor. A man who is ugly is going to have more trouble, especially if he is not socially skilled or is clearly angry at women.

Ding ding ding!

You nailed it. The fact that so many people on here can't seem to bring themselves to admit that looks play a vital role in their dating success is astonishing.

I do think it’s accurate that a large number of men who are perpetually single have misogynistic views and a lot of anger/dislike toward women.

Are you talking about Incels specifically or just casual guys who haven't been active in dating for a while?

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Thinking friendships and social interaction are unnecessary, inconvenient or worthless, whether with men or women — ✔️

Seeing women primarily or exclusively as complicated, illogical sex/relationship partners, not as normal, relatable humans —- ✔️

Needing a woman to facilitate or provide social interaction and status —- ✔️

Having no interest in content, entertainment, or activities produced or shared by women — ✔️

Seeing care of and putting effort into one’s appearance, likability, interpersonal relationships, body and style as feminine —- ✔️

Resentment, envy, disdain and hostility towards women, particularly in sex and dating — ✔️

Following/admiring male cultural figures like Trump, Tate, Red Pill, Jordan Peterson, etc, who display misogyny —- ✔️

Expecting what you want to be provided to you — ✔️

Seeing women as entitled, coddled, favored, spoiled, frivolous, childish, babied, useless, irrelevant—- ✔️

Those characteristics sure smell like toxic masculinity to me. If they apply, of course

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Many of those things you point out are clearly toxic .First of al i don't think its fair to compare Jordan Peterson to Andrew Tate. Jordan Peterson is an intellectual who used to teach at Harvard who has some great videos on psychology , even if you or i for that sake don't agree with everything he says. Andrew Tate is some scamming fool that wears sunglasses inside and says some horrible stuff about women.

But yes i would agree that some of sexless men develop or have those traits. But i dont think those traits are that makes a man sexless from the start. It can be a factor and in some cases the deciding factor but its not the most common factors if a man becomes sexless or a not i think. There are so many men who have those trait you describe and have no problem finding sex. I Think its fair to say if you are ugly/bellow average , low social status and bad social skills AND you have those trait you will likely be sexless for a long time.

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Yes.

Am i missing something but that's insane right?

it's not insane if you know what "toxic masculinity" is. it's not something that bad men choose to adopt, it's a way of describing the kind of "masculinity" that men are currently socialized into -- which is NOT just "masculinity" but a bunch of toxic beliefs that hurt men, women and everyone in society. EX: the idea that men have to be stoic, the idea that men have to fit into their gender role or they aren't manly, the idea that violence and domination is manly, etc.

i can't imagine any men not getting these messages as children and only a few will get the tools to realize this is a grift and be okay being their authentic selves apart from this messaging.

I'm also not saying all single/sexless men are bad people btw. I don't think that at all. but to varying degrees the kind of masculinity men are taught and accept for themselves and others does make them pretty incompatible to women who are pursuing a healthy life/relationship.

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This is exactly what the OP is talking about.

You've taken a person in your first sentence, who (for reasons unexplained, but which may be entirely benign) is not sexually experienced, and you've assigned to them in the second sentence a trait which has no relationship with the trait of the first. You failed logic and critical thinking class.

You're projecting some personality or behaviour flaw upon the person you don't want to date/have sex with and you're justifying not wanting to date/have sex with them on the basis of that personality you straight up invented and imagined they have.

If you don't want to date someone who is sexually inexperienced or socially poor, sure, whatever, you go right ahead, but trying to justify it by staining their reputation is a really shitty thing to do. That's on you, not them. They're not the bad guy here, you are.

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Yes. (Triggerwarning: pedophilia)

The guy that I was trying to get with, that I was trying to date is a perfect example of this. He's 20 and got kicked out of his college for drawing pics of nuclear bombs. That he posted in discord. And I thought it was a joke. I showed my boyfriend at the time, this was a year ago, and he explained what I was looking at (a bomb with a small nuclear core). He, his name is Devin, was majoring in chemical engineering. Which is the same first major Oppie, the creator of the atomic bomb had from Berkeley. After the threats the police searched my apartment because of my association with him and took three of my phones and my laptop. After the search, I was so worried about Devin (who I had feelings for, keep in mind) I decided to visit his friends. But not the friends from the college he had threatened. Those guys threatened a dude in a wheelchair, fuck them, but the first group of his friends that I was introduced to. His group of highschool aged friends. It was only after I met them that I realized what was happening. Why he wasn't able to get along with people in their 20s, same age range as him, who he went to college with. (Triggerwarning: pedophilia) I won't go into extreme detail but I think where I'm heading with my thoughts is obvious. He's not attracted to me, an adult woman (I'm 35) who both knows and is able to accurately articulate what I desire sexually. That's not my fault. Me being attracted to fellow adults is not my fault. That's how a normal human being is. Him? Not like me. You get what I'm saying. Him being physically disabled is a convenient excuse. But I've seen him get an erection and that's how I know. He pretty much will always be alone and his loneliness will only get worse as he ages. Because they accept him because they know him but they will grow up and he won't. They will become adults and take on adult responsibilities but he will remain stuck with the same mentality those kid friends currently have. He's trapped. That's why he couldn't handle being around peers the same age as him, because he desired to be with the younger friends instead.

Title	Do women really believe that toxic masculinity is the common factor of sexless lonely men?
Author	Casueeesbeli
Upvotes	109
Comments	293
Date	December 10, 2023 1:24 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/18f3jny/do_women_really_believe_that_toxic_masculinity_is/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/do-women-really-believe-that-toxic-masculinity-is.1240423 https://theredarchive.com/post/1240423

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