so apparently the draft is discrimination against women.

5th_Law_of_Robotics · 2013-05-11T15:50:35+00:00

Everything is discrimination against women. Hadn't you heard?

CrackpotPatriot · 2013-05-11T16:34:51+00:00

Well... even from that point of view, the solution is to either stop mandatory service/draft or impose it on women too.

blueoak9 · 2013-05-11T16:53:55+00:00

"Her argument was that the male dominated military has said that women are incapable of fighting, and that is the real issue."

Oh waaaah. Men get killed, but women are insulted, and that is so much worse. What a sexist pile of man-hatred.

I call this Snatching Victimhood From the Jaws of Privilege.

nigglereddit · 2013-05-11T16:45:23+00:00

Well, it kind of is.

And if women want to redress that balance by stepping forward to be blown to pieces by IEDs and shot by snipers, I for one will be right behind them (but not too close).

For anyone who's interested, here's what a real soldier thinks about girls in the military. Yes, that soldier is a woman. And no, she doesn't think girls should be treated differently in the armed forces and I'm prepared to take her word for that.

MRMRising · 2013-05-11T17:41:44+00:00

By that logic woman are discrimnated in education as well. By giving woman a disportionate amount of grant money, the country is saying woman are incapable of carrying the extra burden of working meanial jobs for low wages.That Misogynistic Edu system trying to keep woman down again.

circuitology · 2013-05-11T16:41:29+00:00

You need to tell your mother that women are allowed to register, but it's voluntary.

Ask her if she would prefer it if she were at risk of being called to action and had no choice in the matter.

2013-05-11T17:23:53+00:00

She is correct. It would also be discriminatory to draft them. Just like it is harassment to look at women and also hateful if you ignore them. And its sexist for men to leave the care of children to women, but an indication of pedophilia if men do care about kids. There's a whole theory that explains how this works - patriarchy.

SilverSick · 2013-05-11T17:19:05+00:00

I think it hurt men because they have to register but women have the option. But I would like it to be the same for both genders. Either we all register or we all have the option.

DrDerpberg · 2013-05-11T19:14:05+00:00

People who think dying is less of an issue than being excluded from something due to physical expectations are showing just how little they give a fuck about male life.

Typicaledgyname · 2013-05-11T17:53:28+00:00

I agree completely, we should make women sign up for the draft as well. Just ask any feminist, being disposable is a privilege!

tyciol · 2013-05-11T18:53:41+00:00

Just like slut-shaming is sexist towards men since it presupposes that men are already naturally lecherous, promiscuous, and sexually uncontrollable, whereas women are sexually pure, holy, clean, mature, and monogamous.

Except no feminist would ever accept that as proof that men are bigger victims of female slut-shaming.

Orlando1701 · 2013-05-11T19:19:18+00:00

Women’s Rights Activist Demands More Females Killed In Combat

NemosHero · 2013-05-11T18:20:41+00:00

Sexual discrimination is a two sided coin. There's no way to say "these people do this" without saying "these people don't do this"

Revoran · 2013-05-11T17:55:28+00:00

Strictly speaking it is discrimination against women because they are discriminating between the sexes. Remember that "to discriminate" is to make a distinction between two things based on some sort of class/category etc.

It's not harmful to women, though. That's the difference. The draft is harmful to men but not to women.

Whether females are as capable as men of fulfulling combat roles is highly debatable. Certainly some exceptional individuals are but the vast majority are just not as capable as the men.

It's unfortunate she chose to focus on the (minor) issue of women in combat roles compared to the (major) issue of conscripting men into the military.

DroppaMaPants · 2013-05-11T19:19:57+00:00

I would say this is discriminatory - but against men not women.

Jayrate · 2013-05-12T07:25:10+00:00

Yes. Men are sent off to foreign lands against their will and are killed, tortured, or at the least have issues for the rest of their life and an interrupted career path, but women are still the victim.

Aaod · 2013-05-11T18:48:19+00:00

But.... you have the option of signing up. It merely gives you more choice in the matter. So let me get this straight you are saying when given something extra it is discrimination? Holy shit it is like complaining you are given a extra scoop of ice cream when everyone else only gets one.

PieMasterBob · 2013-05-11T20:48:49+00:00

I'm so glad white male are no longer discriminated against by being the only ones allowed to vote.

JustPlainRude · 2013-05-11T23:46:53+00:00

The draft is discrimination against individual liberty.

rightsbot · 2013-05-11T15:24:17+00:00

Post text automatically copied here. (Why?) (Report a problem.)

RogueWedge · 2013-05-11T21:20:02+00:00

Perhaps you could show her the Night Witches group that flew for Russia during World War 2. All females right there.

Cardplay3r · 2013-05-11T22:37:07+00:00

Well your mom managed to find the one issue of blatant discrimination against women that feminism doesn't fight. Tell her to call all major feminist organizations, the media etc. to put a stop to this at once!

2013-05-11T23:50:36+00:00

Those poor poor wimminz. Not getting forced to go and die in some fucked up war in Fuckyoustan. I can hardly contain my feels.

DavidByron · 2013-05-11T17:37:57+00:00

Well everything's discrimination against women. If you have privilege you can talk nonsense like that and people have to pretend it makes sense.

poorlytaxidermiedfox · 2013-05-11T18:56:52+00:00

Being forced to do something that others are not forced into doing isn't discrimination for those who aren't forced to do it.

Women can apply for a spot in the military, just like any other person. They can also opt not to. Men can't. That's discrimination against men, as they're not given a choice in the matter.

Your mother's logic fails on the most basic level.

littlebear1130 · 2013-05-11T19:14:42+00:00

wait woman want the draft they can have it.

I_hate_alot_a_lot · 2013-05-11T20:20:39+00:00

The problem with this point of view is that I don't see women protesting about it, or contacting their representatives to push any legislation through to require females to sign up for the selective service.

The problem is I actually don't see females actually wanting to sign up for a mandatory selective service because of the possibility of getting drafted if we go into war.

Call me what you will but when it comes to gender equality and talking about possibly of going to war, like men have traditionally done, I don't see women owning up to that part of gender equality, for some reason.

Hydro033 · 2013-05-11T21:32:54+00:00

Males are disposable. Learn your biology. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anisogamy

2Fab4You · 2013-05-11T21:48:04+00:00

The draft is discrimination against everyone.

2013-05-11T22:19:18+00:00

Well, it is, since it's of the assumption that women are to be protected, instead of capable of fighting for their country alongside the men.

I think the worse discrimination of it is against men, though, because of the disposability aspect of it - physically, through death and other wounds, and mentally.

Women - hurt feelings

Men - death, other wounds and health issues, mental scarring for life.

RXRob · 2013-05-11T22:56:06+00:00

Actually, I agree with your mother.

I believe in sexual equality, that means that if men can fight a war then women can fight a war.

If women don't like that then they should drop their fight for "equality". And I personally know a few women who should drop it on this basis.

2013-05-11T22:56:58+00:00

:giggle: women largely are incapable of fighting on today's battlefields. They can ride in vehicles just fine, but they can't carry a pack for shit, and god help me if I need one of them to pull me out of a firefight after I've been shot.

Clausewitz1996 · 2013-05-11T23:20:36+00:00

It's discrimination against both genders, but more so against men because it affects them more than their female counterparts.

Bla34112 · 2013-05-11T23:35:02+00:00

Encourage her to go fight for equality in that matter! Ask her how many feminists fought for equality on that.

See how quickly she folds.

Bla34112 · 2013-05-11T23:37:04+00:00

Those are 2 sides of the same coin.

As are most mens and womens rights issues that stem from traditional gender roles.

But as always, feminists can only see their own point of view.

ryukyukids · 2013-05-12T00:19:03+00:00

So your mom is complaining that she wasn't forced against her will to work a job that has a really high chance of being killed?

I've heard that in some country the issue of conscripting women was put to vote, most women voted against it. So "the male dominated" military has nothing to do with it.

owensounder · 2013-05-12T01:18:19+00:00

She's correct, draft women or abolish the draft altogether.

Edit: mostly correct except for the first part about it being discrimination against women.

CMOS222 · 2013-05-12T01:20:18+00:00

I agree with your mother. Mandatory military service is an example of something that can be described as discriminatory and sexist, from both a man's perspective AND a woman's perspective. From a woman's perspective, it suggests that women are incapable of serving in combat roles. From a man's perspective, it's based on the supposition that males are more disposable.

Another example is baby changing stations only in women's bathrooms. From a man's perspective, it implies that men are incapable of taking care of their infants. From a woman's perspective, it implies that only women should take care of a couple's infant.

joedude · 2013-05-12T04:29:39+00:00

your mom is retarded and i don't care because she can't comprehend the reality of war in her retard bubble of a fuckbrain.

DiamondbackJack · 2013-05-12T05:12:29+00:00

Rostker v Goldberg

insideman83 · 2013-05-12T06:08:03+00:00

Naturally, they figured out how to tax the other half of the population let's persuade them into sacrificing their life as well.

avantvernacular · 2013-05-13T02:58:21+00:00

If that's discrimination, than discriminate against me please!

AKA_Sotof · 2013-05-11T17:27:07+00:00

Both are discrimination.

emptyhunter · 2013-05-11T17:35:49+00:00

Well... It is. If you are providing a service for or requiring a group of people to do something while not doing the same thing for a different group you are discriminating against that group.

The discrimination can be positive, like in the case of women not having to sign up for the draft (your mother's argument does have some validity, but it's not the whole argument), or negative.

So, discrimination exists, the argument is now about the real reasons behind this discrimination. It seems to me like you are both making value judgements and so it's all subjective.

5_by_5 · 2013-05-11T17:58:20+00:00

why do we need to prioritize concern? in both cases, the problem is the arbitrary classification of people by gender, which hurts everyone.

throwmeupriver · 2013-05-11T20:24:39+00:00

Its not discrimination, but a lot of women support a draft for women because we believe the sexes should be equal. If men should be forced to draft, so should women.

i.e. women lives are no more important that a mans. And please realize; women did not decide to forgo the draft. That was the governments decision. I am in full support of putting my name on the draft docket.

tyciol · 2013-05-11T22:02:58+00:00

My Mother just told me that if a country has laws that requires all males to put their names forward for the draft, or mandatory service, while not requiring the same thing of females, that shows discrimination against women.

Let's fucking run with this, because it would be hilarious if we could end this 'discrimination against women' by necessitating the putting forth of women's names.

OP, Tux, get your mom to spread this idea like a wildfire. Talk to her knitting circles. Bring this idea forth to women's groups. Let's confront Feminists with this idea and see how they react to it. Let's see women's enthusiasm for equality, to not be discriminated against by ignoring their awesome combat skillz.

pinkplatypuss · 2013-05-11T22:07:23+00:00

it is my understanding, that the reason that men have been the ones to go to war and not women is due to repopulation after the wars. a man has that capability to father many children in a year where as a woman is only capable of producing one health child a year. in todays society in a world population of over 7billion i think it safe to say there is no reason for women now to not participate in combat.

as for women being incapable of fighting, thats assuming all women are under 5'4" and are dainty feminine creatures. i am often referred to a hansom women 5'8" 175lb (a health weight range for my bone structure) i wasn't built to be petite and feminine, why should i be forced to act so?

2013-05-11T22:17:24+00:00

I actually tend to agree with your mother (but probably for different reasons)

In Australia we have actually changed the rules so that women can serve in front-line combat roles and have our first woman serving in such a role [(http://www.townsvillebulletin.com.au/article/2013/05/02/380536_news.html)]

I support the idea that in every sort of role including the Army decisions should be made based on the individuals ability not gender

Cyridius · 2013-05-11T22:27:38+00:00

I agree and disagree. The draft as a concept is horrible. However making it exclusive to men is discrimminatory to both genders - in that it excludes women from the military service but also forces men into it.

What I have found funny is that for all the women that rallied against this policy, like for Vietnam, I believe there is only one that went and joined the army.

As far as I'm concerned, if you have a problem with a draft system, go sign up. Nobody stops you.

silferkanto · 2013-05-11T22:42:05+00:00

Well it is discrimination but in this case they're on the good end. Unless they want to serve their country, then it is discrimination against women.

EDIT: auto correct's fault

salgat · 2013-05-11T22:43:05+00:00

Isn't that the definition of discrimination? I agree that the main reason women are not put in the draft is traditionalist thinking that women are inferior fighters.

YahwehTG · 2013-05-11T23:26:16+00:00

Well, in all fairness. It is a discrimination to women. And to men. To gender equality as a whole, I'd say.

S-BRO · 2013-05-12T01:00:20+00:00

Men die. Women cry.

CrackpotPatriot · 2013-05-12T01:12:18+00:00

I agree with your mother. I was pissed to learn I wasn't considered worthy or capable enough to my country register for the draft. I served anyway.

AdamantPanda · 2013-05-12T03:29:30+00:00

Right, just like slavery deprived whites of the joys of being forced to pick cotton for their whole lives.

iamkuato · 2013-05-12T04:20:41+00:00

Well, now that women are allowed in combat, I am not certain she has a point. Women are being afforded equal rights. Perhaps her theory has merit if she is arguing that women are not required to offer equal responsibility, but that doesn't seem to be her argument.

Her argument, maddeningly enough, seems to be that it isn't fair to women that men are forced to sacrifice their lives to their country when women are only allowed to choose whether to make that sacrifice themselves. *edit grammar

Shermanpk · 2013-05-12T05:27:56+00:00

You can't please all of the people all of the time.

funnyfaceking · 2013-05-12T07:42:39+00:00

a lot of these things are both

recoil669 · 2013-05-12T08:30:54+00:00

Well at least your mom is on the right side of the "equal opportunity" fence. In my opinion.

BrambleEdge · 2013-05-12T18:17:28+00:00

The former Swedish Minister of Defence, Sten Tolgfors (himself a conscientious objector) described it the same way. When Sweden got rid of conscription in 2010, he stated that this signalled the end to the last piece of institutional discrimination against women. That's right, a law that enslaved all the nation's male subjects since 1901 (prior to this, we had various forms of selective conscription, but in 1901 general conscription was enacted) was a case of discrimination against women because they were not enslaved. This is what feminism looks like.

avantvernacular · 2013-05-13T14:53:43+00:00

I think selective service should be mandatory for both men and women, and the draft should be mandatory if a country commits more than a certain number of soldier to a combat zone. Why? Because there's no accountability to the people sending our soldiers to die, and a man's unwillingness to die is too often overlooked. However, if you put women in the same position as men, war is political suicide. You may get away with forcing sons and husbands to march to their deaths, but daughters and wives? The backlash would destroy you. The only way to end perpetual war after war is to make it put everyone's lives at risk, not just the ones we see as expendable.

DerpaNerb · 2013-05-11T19:54:46+00:00

Well technically it is discrimination... but this is what we call "positive discrimination"

Anyone who thinks the better end of this "deal" is the one that men get... is just a fucking idiot.

sleepingprincess · 2013-05-11T22:25:53+00:00

Why can't it be discrimination both ways? Women being too fragile and distracting for war is kind of the other side of the "men are simply disposable" coin.

Obviously men have it worse in this case, but what is done to one gender certainly effects the other, should no one ever point that out?

The_McAlister · 2013-05-11T23:37:57+00:00

There is so much more to service than schlepping through mud with a big backpack. When I was in college I got a recruitment call. The caller assumed I was his targets mother and launched into a spiel about the character building awesomeness and honor of service. How it teaches valuable job skills and instills discipline and integrity. And its not just grr-thmp he-men being shot at! no! They ALSO need mathematics and physics majors like {male pronunciation of my name}! Such people are of vital importance to the Air Force's mission! To the country! Esp ones constantly on the Honor Roll!

You mean {female pronunciation of my name}? This is she.

The recruitment officer on the other side of the line was dead silent for about 10 seconds. Literally speechless. I could picture him like a deer in the headlights trying to handle the idea of {name} being a g-g-g-girl!

Then he hung up on me without a word. Honor roll physics majors aren't wanted if they are also female.

OK. I actually was kind of interested but message received. You don't want me. Got it.

There is discrimination in intent and discrimination in effect. When you compare body counts you are looking at effect. What the OP's mother was talking about is discrimination in intent. His mother would rather that the best qualified medics, engineers, code breakers etc support the front line fighters so that fewer of them die. When the military passes over exceptional women in favor of sub-par men for non-combat positions it costs lives.

A famous example is how they refused to look at Hedy Lamar's design for an improved torpedo guidance system for over a decade till some male engineers pitched it at which point they snapped it up. So many of our boys dead because their torpedoes were jammed and the enemy was able to shoot back. All because the military assumed that a guidance system invented by a woman couldn't possibly work.

braulio09 · 2013-05-12T05:02:05+00:00

Will you be forgetting her gift?

calvannon · 2013-05-11T23:54:48+00:00

Everything in a woman's life is about seeking attention.

scurvybill · 2013-05-12T00:59:35+00:00

This post is a pointless circle jerk. So you're mother is sexist? No one needs to give a crap. Just a few shitty posts from unsubscribing now.

badforedu · 2013-05-12T04:46:34+00:00

She's just saying she wants an equal part un serving the country. These are feminist ideals that don't conflict with male rights. While you say she is disregarding the male lives lost, I'd have to disagree considering her statement isn't females are superior soldiers but just that they should be drafted.'

fukuaneveryoneuknow · 2013-05-11T18:52:22+00:00

women are incapable of fighting, and that is the real issue. Male disposiblity is a secondary concern.

http://i.imgur.com/Evcn6Jf.png

shockhead · 2013-05-11T20:04:17+00:00

They're equal concerns. That's the thing people never understand. Every cry of patriarchy is over telling women there's something they can't or shouldn't do, which also tells men there's something they must or must be able to do. Gender norms are bullshit for everyone.

ssj4kevin · 2013-05-11T20:59:26+00:00

Have you ever stopped to think that perhaps the ability to fight for your country might be a good thing while being told the only thing you're good for is making children might be a bad thing? If that's the case, which I very much so think it is - your understanding of the concept of "disposiblity" is the one in question, making it your world view the one which is twisted.

nismopowa · 2013-05-11T20:55:03+00:00

Hi, has anyone here actually asked a real soldier woman?

I have a cousin in law who is in the army. She's been there for about 7 or 8 years and is an E-7.

She does office jobs like documents and data stuff, but has been deployed too.

Her main issue with this is because if a woman taken as a POW will have a much much higher chance to be tortured much more than a male. They can be made pregnant and have a much more terrible and severe life than a male.

Title	so apparently the draft is discrimination against women.
Author	mynameistux
Upvotes	394
Comments	221
Date	May 11, 2013 3:22 PM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/mensrights/comments/1e4qe6/so-apparently-the-draft-is-discrimination-against-/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/so-apparently-the-draft-is-discrimination-against.1612490 https://theredarchive.com/post/1612490

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