Since when is flirting being a clown? Do men not enjoy flirting again?

WhiteningMcClean · 2019-06-12T13:18:12+00:00

Here’s major difference between flirting now and flirting in the past, and why men don’t enjoy it.

Women nowadays have so many options at their literal fingertips that

You literally have to “entertain” her just to keep her attention for more than 5 minutes and
A number of women feel no obligation to put effort in themselves beyond shit testing.

Back and forth flirting is fun. But with most women it’s a one sided clown show where it’s your job to keep her entertained long enough to make an impression, while she puts in no effort herself, even if she is interested, because she can find someone else so easily.

NockerJoe · 2019-06-12T13:50:57+00:00

I'm gonna walk you through a pretty common scenario.

I'm on OLD. I take decent pictures. I edit them properly. I write a cool bio. I swipe around and get a few matches. Most of these women don't need to put in the same level of effort to get 2 or three times my matches. Because there are probably at least two other guys talking to the same woman RIGHT NOW I need to be sharp and entertaining just to keep her attention because she can hold simultanious conversations with other people putting in effort equal or greater to mine. Odds are even if we all have an equal chance I'm gonna lose on sheer math. It doesn't really work that way though and a lot of dudes who put in the effort will be more attractive than me amd have better xhances anyway. So after a bit of schmoozing I get ghosted. I have other matches so I try them and probably get ghosted too. It's hard not to feel like a dancing clown knowing your odds of even scoring a date with someone who by definition finds you attractive are that low.

I think it's just me and I need to up my game. But then I talk to the guys at work or my social circle. They get fewer matches who ghost them faster. I'm apparently doing above average and still winding up with my dick in my hand.

This is also a pretty good snapshot of women you meet organically too or even after a couple of dates. If I shoot off a message I usually don't get a reply for like 6 hours to a couple of days. If I invite them anywhere I have to expect getting stood up or her being like an hour late because that's the norm. Again, my friends, even the ones who fuck way more than me, reckon half their dates who agree to be somewhere simply don't show up and vanish into the aether regsrdless of how they meet, so it isn't OLD.

GrumpyOldHistoricist · 2019-06-12T15:02:01+00:00

I’ve literally had female acquaintances of mine talk about making dudes entertain them via dating apps and texting. And I’m not paraphrasing. “Entertain” is the word used. For dudes who aren’t interesting or hot enough, that’s the reality. I can’t blame those guys for getting resentful. It’s a shitty way to treat another person.

Million-Suns · 2019-06-12T14:12:20+00:00

Since when is flirting being a clown? Do men not enjoy flirting again?

Why do you assume men enjoyed flirting to begin with?

The guy in the post explained it well. It's not fun to be the interviewee in a job interview. So much pressure as in you feel like one misstep crucifies you. Even in absence of misstep and you're told: "next!!"

Men take a lot of risk to begin with when they approach: rejection, shaming, public humiliation, etc.

So people who thought flirting was "fun" are only the interviewers who have to invest so little in the process and risk nothing.

CamoWoobie10000 · 2019-06-12T13:13:47+00:00

So yeah, Im the guy who wrote the first thing you quoted. Its not about not wanting to flirt, its about encountering all of the time wasters rude bitches and trying to navigate a post metoo world where simply saying "you look beautiful today" can be considered harassment. Its a shit deal for most men. Society is constantly drilling into our heads that male sexuality is inherently perverse, underhanded and predatory. We are made to feel like its not okay to ask a woman out, and many women reinforce that idea through rude rejections and shaming. Add that to knowing how many women treat high value men, having sex with them within moments of meeting, holding them to a completely different standard and then having them expect me to court them makes me bitter. Yes that makes me feel like a clown.

Imagine going to 100 jobs interviews, where when you walk in, 25 of them laugh and/or insult you and then tell you to leave before you even have a chance to speak. 50 of them say "sorry, we're actually not hiring right now, we already filled the position" some of them are telling the truth, some just dont want to hire you, some hit you with "we'll let you know if theres any availability in the future" and never get back to you. 24 of them waste your time, some of them even expecting you to take an unpaid internship and then replacing you with a completely new interviewee for the job on the spot with full benefits after youve been working at it for months. That last one? Yeah they let you have the job, after taking that unpaid internship and bending over backwards for them, after fighting tooth and nail with 50 other people for the position, and theyre paying you less than half the industry standard with no benefits and treating you like shit.

This is par for the course or worse for many men. Some men will die virgins. My experience has been better, sometimes ive gotten lucky and got that NSA casual sex I wanted with a decent looking girl but most of the time its hell and an uphill battle, whereas the vast majority women and 20% of men get it handed to them on a silver platter almost whenever they want.

Imagine this, a person buys a nice thing at the store, they get a massive discount and use and abuse it to their hearts content. 15 years later its been brought back to the store after multiple previous owners who got the same or similar deal. Now the shop owner wants you to buy it for several times the retail price even though it is in much worse condition. Knowing this, why would you be okay with that?

We can talk about it being "natural" for men to compete with each other for women, but that doesnt make things any better. A lot of horrible things are natural.

Like I said in my last post, the only answer is not to accept that, do what you can to get the upper hand and throw your weight around as much as possible.

passepar2t · 2019-06-12T13:31:18+00:00

It's not the flirting that many men are opposed to per se.

There's a widespread view that online dating and income inequality disrupted the dating market. More women gained easy access to a smaller number of high value men. That means several things. One: most men no longer measure up. Two: most women now have the luxury to ignore most men. Three: each woman has more men competing for her, requiring more effort from the men and less effort from her.

Coming out of this idea, some guys are saying that they can flirt all day and it will get them nowhere. They're saying that the sheer number of attempts and rejections they have to go through before they connect with an even average woman can get pretty discouraging, especially when many women aren't even flirting back much. And I don't blame them. It's hard to be "on" 100 percent of the time and to some, it starts to feel like being a clown.

[deleted] · 2019-06-12T14:04:45+00:00

I don't think the guy you quoted is complaining about the dance itself, more the hyper judgmental, passive, entitled attitude women have.

If the other person has a shitty attitude it doesnt matter what the activity itself is like. A dance, a job interview, a date, whatever.

TrueReligionGenes · 2019-06-12T14:17:12+00:00

The number of women genuinely receptive to the average man is low, they have better options. I'd say for an average looking guy, maybe 1 in 5 women will be receptive, as in not reject him straightaway. After he finds the 1 in 5, he then has to do everything to impress and be better than the other options the woman has. Since she is likely online as well, he stands little chance.

This dynamic might be different for 30+ folks, but I have observed this for the 22-29 range. You just cant win without massive amounts of effort if you are average looking. Casual stuff is almost impossible. It goes without saying that as you go up the attractiveness scale, girls become more receptive, and eventually they lead and flirt you rather than you them.

I just think guys in general are catching on to the fact that the "women dont care as much about looks" trope is not true, and as a whole are realizing the importance of looks in sex/dating. Along with it, realizing the futility of being average in the eyes of women. This has disillusioned lots of males.

Blonsomio · 2019-06-12T12:55:20+00:00

Men are just getting tired of the whole jesting thing. The number of incels tripling in the past 10 years shows that clowning is much less effective when women can just swipe Tinder and have casual sex with a much hotter guy.

barbodelli · 2019-06-12T12:57:02+00:00

Men feel like a clown when women don’t flirt back, don’t take it seriously, and don’t show interest. Men who don’t enjoy flirting are usually average or below average looking who don’t have the interest reciprocated by the women. Men would absolutely love to flirt if the women flirted back.

crackrocksteady7 · 2019-06-12T17:18:58+00:00

I think people here are confusing flirting with chasing an uninterested woman who hasnt told them no but is hoping they get the hint

crushplanets · 2019-06-12T15:19:11+00:00

women are like employers offering full time management jobs where you need a master degree and +5 years experience, but the job only pays $10 an hour.

sadomasochrist · 2019-06-12T12:48:44+00:00

All of this stuff is related to the more widespread realization by men that women don't love them for "who they are." And so everything in the process then is reduced down to "monkey tricks" or "working on the plantation" etc.

You don't just introduce yourself then ask them out to a date a second later. You make some conversation , try to flirt a bit to see if she interested, then you shoot your shot if she flirts back.

So.... be your clown.

"Hey, you forgot to squeeze your nose and shoot out the water, better luck next time, no paycheck this time."

Barely-moral · 2019-06-12T13:11:39+00:00

And he should be rejected ....because he's skipping a step.

You don't just introduce yourself then ask them out to a date a second later. You make some conversation , try to flirt a bit to see if she interested, then you shoot your shot if she flirts back.

And he shouldn't get the job... because he is skipping a step.

You don't just show up with your resume and ask if you are qualified enough to get the job. You make conversation, you kiss the ass of the company a bit to see how your employer reacts, then you ask if they seem interested.

I mean, if the employer does not seem interested you can end the conversation without getting rejected. You lose nothing.

Not losing time, not losing effort, of course you have absolutely no reason to be looking for the job in the first place so it is not going to cause any frustration whatsoever. Even if you have to kiss the ass of and dance for a company you don't even work for yet.

wtffellification · 2019-06-12T14:21:29+00:00

most women flirt for validation and when they get that, off to the next

so, ive learned that the best way not to get fooled by “eye promises” and not get entangled into some suggestive, covert contracts, testing my boundaries.... is to keep my distance

Planetof12 · 2019-06-12T21:17:06+00:00

Most women don't respond to flirting.

I mean, I maybe get one chance in 6 months to actually flirt back-and-forth. Even then, there is another guy in the background. Unlike the girl, I don't have other girls in the background.

I recently started producing electronic music. I found learning all of it - including music theory - FAR easier than getting attention from women. Getting attention, any kind, from women is very hard.

Mystery_Tragic · 2019-06-12T14:30:47+00:00

The problem is that flirting can be so fake, with many people admitting they do it as a sort of ego boost, that it can be hard to gauge that as a matter of actual interest.

I'd much rather be the best version of myself to get into a relationship rather than trying to flirt with a random woman, especially if said random woman is not flirting back. Because why waste my time?

And when you come across these entitled women who expect the man to do all the heavy lifting when it comes to flirting, you start to wonder if it is worth it. Isn't dating meant to be a two way street?

Which it would be alright if it was just some women, but this seems to be the vast majority of them. Boring and entitled.

jkonrad · 2019-06-12T21:03:34+00:00

Where do you live? Around here flirting is alive and well.

Remember, a lot of "internet people" aren't the normal, socially adjusted people you might assume them to be.

bonusfruit · 2019-06-12T22:28:59+00:00

Flirting is basically men pretending not to be phased by women pelting them with sarcastic jabs until she decides he has sufficiently boosted her ego with compliments and carefully balanced sexual innuendo while demonstrating an unshakable sense of self worth since her put downs don't affect him. She might go to bed with him, or she might throw a drink in his face. She bears no risk whatsoever. Its completely one sided in her favor in all but the most rare circumstances where the guy is top 1% in attractiveness. Why would men actually enjoy this. Only our atomic sex drive pushes us to interact with you

MichaelKeaton · 2019-06-12T12:47:19+00:00

No, most men on reddit probably don’t enjoy flirting because they don’t know how to do it very well or at all (I’m pretty bad myself). So rather than risk looking like a retard I’m sure most would absolutely prefer it be socially acceptable to just ask “do you find me attractive enough for sex and would you go ahead and follow through”.

says_harsh_things · 2019-06-12T13:38:38+00:00

I dunno. I enjoy flirting with a lot of women. That said, I'd probably not have the same interest if the girls didn't reciprocate the way they do.

OfSpock · 2019-06-12T15:27:27+00:00

That’s an issue worth academic studies. I’ll keep adding to the reply.

There’s a large and widening inequality gap when it comes to dating, at least in the western world. OLD is everywhere and it’s just a matter of time before said inequality rises in the whole world. It’s said a Gini index of 40- is needed for a country to be functional, when it comes to income. I’ve read somewhere the dating Gini index is 60+ for dating purposes, whatever that actually is.

Many guys are just delusional. They read positive reports, bragging, cheerful comments and think some men are drowning in pussy. That’s rarely the case, the dating middle class just gets enough women to get by.

Most guys have no game and have no idea what women want, both in a RP and BP sense. They think it’s a matter of buying her stuff, not taking no for an answer, looks trumps all, and jump straight to DTF and dating questions.

Most guys don’t understand the three basic phases of dating, online or in person approaches. They don’t get (enough) matches or (see) IOIs. They suck huge balls at texting or in person banter. They don’t know how to close, or freeze when the time comes (this phase only happens in person ofc). Yes, women don’t have to, it’s been that way for 10k years, and we barely have 150 years of attempts at equality.

I’ve seen some guys suck so bad at gaming I felt bad for them, but I bet many of them think their game is strong enough and it’s all women’s fault. Dating is like MMA, you need to be good at the three basics, otherwise the competition will KO or submit you quickly.

Personally, what pisses me off is some people saying, online and IRL, it’s all looks so I win by default. I indeed don’t need to do much for the 1st phase, but I need to get my hands dirty in the 2nd and 3rd phases, just like everyone else. Bitch, I’m not even tall or the conventional type. I get ignored, ghosted, faded, unmatched, rejected, flaked, so many fucking times. I don’t focus on that though, and I’ve developed systems to make failure happen as fast as possible, why insist on a match who isn’t asking back questions? I know only 5% of matches actually turn into something, so might as well figure it out in 3 minutes. The same applies to in person approaches, spend 3 minutes and win, or move on. If you act like a juggling monkey for 3 hours you’re the problem.

itiswr1tten · 2019-06-12T14:54:19+00:00

Low value men write angry words about women on the internet. You're experiencing a negative selection bias.

There was a recent thread about whether or not seeing multiple people at a time was "wrong". Both men and women who admitted they weren't attractive spewed rage and sadness over the "abuse" of attractive people with options....exercising their options.

All comes from the same place. Improve or date your league.

I love entertaining my dates. Afterward, I make them chase me. People who say hot girls have seen it all don't fuck hot girls.

Moldy_Gecko · 2019-06-12T19:37:00+00:00

To be fair, I'm sure the second guy just went straight to date to shorten his answer. It would be a weird reply to go literally through every step in courting.

HawwYee23 · 2019-06-13T00:04:05+00:00

After reading this thread and thinking about this I feel like I’ve begun to understand some things.

Bantering with the homies is easy because there is no extrinsic reward; the banter is it’s own reward. Shooting the shit with the guys is fun in and of itself. But when talking to women, most of the time I have an ulterior motive; I’m looking for sex and/or a relationship. Now when I’m flirting (which is just banter between a man and woman) I have a goal, and this takes the intrinsic fun out of it. Now it feels like I’m performing, I feel like a clown.

But I don’t know how I can escape this predicament. My sex drive is what is fueling my desire to talk to women. I don’t chat up random dudes on the street. I don’t download apps to find more friends. So this creates a catch 22 of sorts. My underlying desire for sex makes it harder to actually connect, but if I got rid of/ignored this desire I wouldn’t be talking to women anyway. Any advice is appreciated.

darksoldierk · 2019-06-13T04:31:39+00:00

Yeah, I really think you have this illusion that men enjoyed flirting. Men didn't, they never have. The approach sucked, and your analogy of the "dance" is wrong.

In order to lead a dance, you needed to have started dancing to begin with. You needed to have found a dance partner. Men aren't tired of the dance, they are tired of trying to find a partner to dance with. Those are two very different things. What these guys are saying is, men are basically auditioning for women in order to start the dance. That's where the "performance" comes in.

It's like RP, RP focuses on giving you the tools to get the partner, then generally goes radio silent about actually leading the dance. They say things like "dread" and "be stoic", which isn't really advice or help. But their focus (at least the last time I read it) is things like "work out", "I went to bar and did X, it worked on women". Ya follow?

blackkindergods · 2019-06-12T16:29:30+00:00

Women’s are retarded and can’t flirt, they’re just dumb and have nothing interesting to say mostly. Most of em don’t study, just hedonists

blackedoutfast · 2019-06-12T17:49:12+00:00

yeah I don't get the opposition to flirting. it's fun.

seeing dating and relationships and flirting as some kind of painful annoying job interview that you're just going through because you want sex is probably the real reason those guys are so unsuccessful.

Atlas_B_Shruggin · 2019-06-12T14:52:43+00:00

Flirting is how you maintain plausible deniability.

People on the spectrum dont grasp this

I was very lucky to have a mother who taught me this explicitly

[deleted] · 2019-06-12T23:27:44+00:00

The more I read this thread, the more it hurts.

It seems like quite a many guys are just mild versions of “niceguys”, and couldn’t hold a friendly chat to save their lives. The worst part is believing they need to “endure” shit tests until she’s satisfied. Breaking news: she’s actually trying to get away from you.

That’s s some interesting data. A large minority of the pillsphere has socializing issues.

DaphneDK42 · 2019-06-12T13:15:52+00:00

meh. Millenials (and trp) are way too anal retentive. Just loosen the fuck up, and stop being so angsty and over analyzing everything. Flirting is just shooting the breeze and poking harmless fun at each other. Going out with girls is fun. They look good, they smell nice, they're soft and bouncy and they giggle at your jokes. What's the big problem?

if you think its like a job interview you're doing things wrong, or you're meeting the wrong girls. However, as they saying goes, if you tried many times and the same problem keeps coming up, then most probably you are the problem.

[deleted] · 2019-06-13T08:01:27+00:00

Why do we say men have to perform like clowns?

Because women get so much attention, that a guy has to often do extraordinary (and sometimes even outrageous) things to maintain a woman's interest and attention.

The competition's also much higher since you no longer only compete against a few men who might also interested in her IRL, but also all the men in her social media feed (facebook, instagram, discord, etc.).

Now you're going to tell me to go for women who don't use social media, but that just doesn't happen.

Bonus, the older you are the more money you have to spend on dating as well - especially when you're not a top % desirable man.

[deleted] · 2019-06-13T08:02:16+00:00

Imo the main place this criticism applies is online dating sites and apps. If you're a guy on Tinder it is full of women expecting you to entertain them and they often still won't put much effort into the conversation and that's if they even bother to respond at all. That's where a lot of the frustration is from.

But IRL yeah I do enjoy flirting, I will flirt with girls just for fun even though I'm in a relationship, because I know it won't go anywhere it's just a bit of fun.

MisterJose · 2019-06-13T11:02:10+00:00

Realize that whenever you say, "This is how you go about it..." , who made those rules up? Men didn't.

I like 'flirting', but my definition of flirting is the girl sitting on my lap and us playing around and the like; it's in large part physical in nature. If I'm into you, I want to get physical with you. Men see a high premium in physical contact with women. I don't want to just stand there and talk, and I may not necessarily want to go to dinner and talk either. I want to touch you, I wanted that the first second I saw you, and I'm either being honest, or going along with your thing until you tell me it's OK to touch you, so it's a matter of which you prefer. Or, you can initiate the physical contact yourself, which is actually how the lap-sitting and the rest has often happened in my experience.

[deleted] · 2019-06-13T11:28:17+00:00

TBH I would rather get right to the fucking. Chasing a woman is lame, would rather get to the good stuff.

There's a girl here (forgot her name) who says that men love to chase women as they feel masculine when they finally get her. But so what if you catch her, 100s of other men before you have as well. You're not the first to go in that hole and you certainly won't be the last.

Flirting is just pointless teasing or putting on a "I'm not like other girls" performance. Trying to seem like she's not a slut lol.

merilius · 2019-06-13T19:35:29+00:00

I hate dancing. And almost whole my life I was choosing not to flirt as the whole procedure both looks like clown activity and in the end its costs (wasted time) exceed the benefits (a non-zero chance of coitus).

rasmelo · 2019-06-28T01:06:56+00:00

100% agree.

PrideInIndividuality · 2019-06-12T16:25:03+00:00

Most men who whine about flirting are suffering from depression. If they don't enjoy basic teasing around, they have a very negative view of life.

mistresswhat · 2019-06-12T20:14:54+00:00

People who hate women resent having to act like they don't hate women. Shocker.

The socially challenged resent having to attempt social connection with people they see as unworthy of the effort. Again, shocker.

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wtknight · 2019-06-12T15:00:31+00:00

Women put on shows too for men who they are interested in who they don’t want to be a pump and dump for. Every woman I’ve dated has put on such a show for me. If a man senses that he’s the only one putting on a show, then he should just move on, because she’s not really into him and he’s trying to attract women out of his league. If no women at all are putting on shows for him, then he needs to improve himself.

But the point is, women have to put on shows too. It’s just that the show is different since the woman’s goal that she can possibly fail at is a relationship while the man’s is sex. The woman already knows she can get sex if that’s all she really wants.

flyinghorse1 · 2019-06-12T22:30:03+00:00

Dating isn't that hard - you just go on tinder and chat to your matches and set up a date. Meeting people in real life is a little slower but It can still work as well. So many people overthink it all.

Title	Since when is flirting being a clown? Do men not enjoy flirting again?
Author	Will_Stephens
Upvotes	50
Comments	466
Date	June 12, 2019 11:38 AM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/bzq4jf/since_when_is_flirting_being_a_clown_do_men_not/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/since-when-is-flirting-being-a-clown-do-men-not.255343 https://theredarchive.com/post/255343

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