Rape investigations should proceed with assumption that men are guilty; believing that the allegation is false and should be proven is a "misplaced belief".

Deansdale · 2013-03-13T11:58:04+00:00

What the heck happened to "innocent until proven guilty"??? No arm of the justice system should ever "assume" anyone to be guilty. Find out for a fact what happened, that is their job.

memymineown · 2013-03-13T13:42:31+00:00

There is a lot to dislike in that article but the idea that rape investigations should proceed with the assumption that men are guilty isn't in there.

Please don't just make stuff up.

dz1262 · 2013-03-13T16:55:20+00:00

You guys really need to read the article. They in no way are saying what that very sensationalist tittle is leading people to think it says.

Heterohabilis · 2013-03-13T14:19:25+00:00

"...over the same timespan, there were only 35 prosecutions for making false allegations of rape."

Well, yes... prosecutions. It's a very low number because society almost always let the poor, troubled woman off without punishing her for wasting police time and resources (to say nothing of the damage she has caused to the accused.)

For this study to have any merit we'd need to see the number of claims that were withdrawn, and the number where police looked at the 'evidence' and decided not to pursue a case (not that police inaction necessarily mean a false accusation, but it's an indicator.)

EncomOne · 2013-03-13T15:04:19+00:00

The title of this post is completely misleading. Nowhere in the text of the article does Starmer advise that the burden of proof should be shifted to the accused. The "misplaced belief" that is directly quoted in the post title does not refer to the shifting of the burden of proof, but a reported misconception that there is a high number of false rape allegations.

Sensationalizing something by twisting context provides a vector of attack for those that disagree with you. Posting something like this provides an example for anti-MRAs to post and claim intellectual dishonesty and media illiteracy.

barbadosslim · 2013-03-13T16:51:51+00:00

Well thats not what the article says at all

unexpecteditem · 2013-03-13T11:58:35+00:00

This is simply bullshit because it undermines a basic principle "everyone is innocent until proven guilty"-- despite statistical correlation between reporting rape and conviction. In America, statistically there are more black men in jail then any other race so should it be assumed that all black men are guilty of an accused crime until proven innocent? The answer for you racist assholes out there is no, it shouldn't. The burden of proof has to fall on the accuser regardless of crime because you're about to wreck someone's life forever. The least you could do is prove it. Otherwise men like Kobe Bryant, who didn't rape anyone but was accused, wouldn't stand a chance. Finally, from the sounds of it, even though the victim has to prove he/she was raped, the system seems to work just fine if 9 out of 10 cases end in a conviction.

threemorereasons · 2013-03-13T13:59:15+00:00

I am seriously suspicious about the fact that they only talk about the number of prosecutions. A great number of both rapes and false rape accusations never make it to the prosecution stage. All the numbers in the article tell us is that the number of false rape prosecutions is very low.

A better way of looking at it would be to compare rape and false rape convictions, as well as including numbers on the number of reported rapes and false accusations. Because of the principle we have that a person is innocent until proven guilty, we simply don't know for sure one way or the other what happened, unless there has been a conviction. The sheer number of cases that don't end in a conviction just shows how hard it is to prove rape or false accusations.

unexpecteditem · 2013-03-13T12:53:41+00:00

You know what gets me about this rape stuff? I have never in my life raped anyone, nor had the slightest inclination to do so. All I want is to live my life and be treated equally as a human being, along with women. Then all of a sudden I get hit over the head with all this rape stuff, which I'm somehow supposed to feel ashamed of, when in fact it is a relatively marginal crime committed by a tiny minority who the police and courts are trying to stop, quite rightly.

None of this has anything to do with me.

It just seems like a massive nuclear-grade distraction that is motivated by pernicious male shaming more than by the desire to prevent actual harm.

blazemaster420 · 2013-03-13T15:18:20+00:00

So if I can butt in to this anti-feminist circle jerk, do any of you accept that rape is a particularly emotionally traumatic crime and that the victims of this crime deserve special treatment within the legal system because of their vulnerability as well as the general lack of awareness and understanding within society of the issues surrounding sexual abuse/rape/harassment? I agree with the almost unanimous consensus here that men (although actually the article is about rapists and abusers, rather than men) should be innocent until proven guilty, but the point was not about the justice system, but rather the way crimes are reported/investigated i.e. victims should be believed because a) it is a emotionally difficult thing to do and as such the fear of not being believed discourages vulnerable people from coming forward - something we have seen consistently in Britain in all the recent cases of sexual abuse; and b) that false allegations are actually a tiny minority of those made, in contrast to the general view that women are making it up, or bring it on themselves etc...

I generally find the views on this thread pretty disgusting, not to mention the way that the title of this post has been so blatantly misphrased. Yes lets have anonymity for the accused, and thorough investigation, but lets also have protective measures and investigations procedures that are sensitive to the particular issues around sexual violence, and that encourage women and men to report sexual violence rather than live lives of shame and stigma in silence.

Deansdale · 2013-03-13T12:13:45+00:00

These idiots should stop saying nonsense. Most feminists claim that there are no false accusations, but at most there are 2%. Which is of course absolute rubbish, proven to be false by articles like this. More than 10% of convicted rapists turned out to be innocent later. One can only imagine that if they convict this many innocents then the number of innocents must be even higher amongst those who were exonerated. And don't tell me that was yesterday but today the system works fine because that's bullshit. Every day innocent men get thrown in jail. The 2% bullshit of feminists was a lie 10-20-30 years ago and it still is a lie today.

cheshire137 · 2013-03-13T17:43:01+00:00

Thought you might enjoy the different spin on the headline from TwoXChromosomes and MensRights, as seen back-to-back while browsing /r/all.

I_fight_demons · 2013-03-13T16:15:18+00:00

My feed gave me this: http://imgur.com/IwyBW91

Right on top of each other and radically divided discussion on both boards of course. The article is actually quite moderate and very respectful of the serious nature of false accusation, I see no statement that guilt should be assumed in the article, at all.

I don't like the rather incomplete numbers in the article- talking about prosecutions only does little to represent the prevalence of actual rape versus false reports. To get a more complete picture, we'd need to compare volume of reports, investigations, prosecutions, convictions and ideally post conviction evidence (like the recent and revealing article about post-conviction DNA testing).

Beyond this I don't see any egregious problems in the article. I did find some parts quite interesting, such as the predominance of youth and parent involvement in rape claims:

Of 159 suspects linked to allegedly false claims referred to the CPS between January 2011 and May 2012, 92% were women. Nearly half of them were 21 or under. One surprise was that in 38% of those investigations, the initial complaint of rape or domestic violence was made by someone other than the suspect. Among those under 18 it was 50% and often involved a parent.

This number gives you a better glimpse of potential volume of false claims. 159 people had allegedly false claims during the 17 months... whereas there were only 35 prosecutions. This lets you know that reports (which may be false or true) are far more 35 of 5000.

Makes sense culturally- the enraged parents want the boyfriend they don't like out of the way and they report rape. This was a new bit of information to me. It makes me wonder though if the number the article include statutory rape.

timbstoke · 2013-03-13T18:44:53+00:00

This, on the same day that Rape Crisis tried to defend false accusations by saying that only 1 in 20 rape accusations can be proven to be false.

I_fight_demons · 2013-03-13T11:49:35+00:00

Most infuriating quotes of the article:

"people recognise the devastating effect of false allegations...If [that] leads to a more rigorous test being applied when people report rape or domestic violence, then that can lead to injustice for victims."

yeah, let's just throw out cautiousness when it comes to men

"The mere fact that someone did not pursue a complaint or retracted it, is not of itself evidence that it was false,"

Not reporting something is more evidence of its falseness than it was true. By his logic, I didn't report a robbery last weekend, so I guess I got robbed because I didn't report anything! WTF is this guy smoking? He makes no sense.

Other interesting quotes:

Of 159 suspects linked to allegedly false claims referred to the CPS between January 2011 and May 2012, 92% were women.

2013-03-13T14:19:37+00:00

Start with providing complete anonymity to those accused of these crimes and we'll go from there.

In fact, if the accused were protected by anonymity, false allegations may drop as the shame associated with the accusation would be gone.

biscuitgravy · 2013-03-13T16:39:33+00:00

False rape claim numbers seem like a really easy number to skew. How exactly do you confirm a fake rape allegation? The only real way I can see is to verify that the two people were in two different places at the same time. Or that the one who was raped actually says they were lying. But that number would be be low because usually no one is stupid enough to do that. Does anyone know how consent is legally described in the US?

ANakedBear · 2013-03-13T18:16:58+00:00

This title is misleading. No where does it say men should be assumed guilty, only that police should not over estimate the number of false claims.

If I am wrong, please respond and quote where.

redditcoruum · 2013-03-13T20:01:02+00:00

By comparison, over the same timespan, there were only 35 prosecutions for making false allegations of rape

my emphasis added. This only discusses the amount of false claims that were prosecuted, not the amount of false claims referred to the DPP. There is a difference.

Is anyone able to glean the total number of false claims reported to DPP?

K104 · 2013-03-13T21:43:57+00:00

a study showing there were only a few false allegations during 17 months over 2011 and 2012, said police should not adopt "an over-cautious approach"

Maybe there are so few discovered false accusations because of things like this...

jack_gats · 2013-03-13T12:40:23+00:00

Typical feminist counter-attack. They will not budge an inch.

otter111a · 2013-03-13T15:21:11+00:00

By comparison, over the same timespan, there were only 35 prosecutions for making false allegations of rape, six for false allegations of domestic violence and three that involved false allegations of both rape and domestic violence.

Talk about a double MR whammy right there. There is a strong bias on the part of law enforcement prosecutors not to prosecute people who make false accusations. To have the lack of prosecutions be used as a justification for a presumption of guilt is just dumbfounding.

mugsnj · 2013-03-13T15:26:53+00:00

It doesn't say they should proceed with the assumption that the accused is guilty. It says they should not proceed with the assumption that the accuser is guilty.

TracyMorganFreeman · 2013-03-13T17:23:05+00:00

Here's a novel idea: Let's not assume either, and see whether we can prove a crime was committed.

Blemish · 2013-03-13T18:41:24+00:00

BBC: Two people a month are being prosecuted for making false allegations of rape and wasting police time, new figures show.

I'm guessing fake rape allegations are pretty rare ?

Really ???

Basas · 2013-03-13T12:45:25+00:00

The problem I find with this issue (or most other feminism related issues) is that new laws and institutions are used to change bad traditions and crappy culture.
Lets pretend that in 90% DV cases man is the guilty one. If we create a law that punishes (only) men for DV we will screw 10% of men. Feminists seem to be OK with this. Now what happens if this law really works as intended and after some time only in 60% (or 10%) of DV cases men is the guilty one? It doesn't matter any more because only cases where men is guilty are taken into account and 40% (or 90%) of men are screwed by the law.

2013-03-13T18:30:42+00:00

I wonder, how many people are going to leave this thread thinking that the courts are going to presume that men are guilty, and not with the thought that rape investigations are undermined by people who overestimate false accusations?

ExiledSenpai · 2013-03-13T18:41:32+00:00

The study released on Wednesday by the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) reveals that during the 17-month test period – when all false allegation cases were referred to the DPP – there were 5,651 prosecutions for rape and 111,891 for domestic violence in England and Wales.

By comparison, over the same timespan, there were only 35 prosecutions for making false allegations of rape, six for false allegations of domestic violence and three that involved false allegations of both rape and domestic violence.

In the same way that number of rapes reported does not indicate how many rapes occur, the number of false rape prosecutions does not indicate the number of false rape which occur. The number also certainly doesn't take in to account the number of people wrongly convicted of rape, something we have no way of knowing.

All that aside, even if false rape accusations were as rare as this article would have you believe, what about those 35 out of 5,686? Just because they make up 0.006% of those accused of rape doesn't mean we put the burden of proof on him/her and remove the presumption of innocence. It doesn't mean we ruin the lives of innocent people and send them to jail.

norlad · 2013-03-13T19:09:19+00:00

I get torn about this subject.

On one hand - I can hear that claims of false allegation are very low. That would mean, unless I'm especially dense about this - that men who are accused don't contest the accusation very often. That speaks volumes, in a world where DNA evidence is science fact.

On the other hand, I'm a man - and I've known some vindictive crazy women (though rarely towards me personally), and the false accusation tactic seems so damn easy to pull off - at least for long enough to damage a reputation.

I'm unable to either up or downvote the subject - which I hope shows I'm trying to be open enough to try to comprehend both sides of the argument.

HoopyFreud · 2013-03-13T19:30:28+00:00

What are you on, OP? Did you read the damned article?

Godspiral · 2013-03-13T20:57:38+00:00

By comparison, over the same timespan, there were only 35 prosecutions for making false allegations of rape, six for false allegations of domestic violence and three that involved false allegations of both rape and domestic violence.

And its usually because the crown refuses to prosecute the complainant when their case falls apart. Prosecuting the complainant is an admission that they were retarded to go forward with the case in the first place.

blueskin · 2013-03-13T20:30:36+00:00

Guardian

Unsurprised this crap comes from there.

throwawayzza · 2013-03-13T20:58:18+00:00

As others have pointed out, the title here is sensational, but I would like to point out that the article it's referring to is also just as sensational. "Rape investigations 'undermined by belief that false accusations are rife'"

There's a lot of evil in this world that is uncommon. False accusations isn't one of them, and I know from personal experience. I've had it happen to me, and it has devastated my inner being. I've come to realize that it was my choice in the women I'm attracted to that caused this. It's one way-too-easy lie from all of your friends turning on you.

Apellosine · 2013-03-13T22:40:16+00:00

When talking to one of the false accusers:

"It was a feature of these cases that the suspect later reported that the whole thing had spiralled out of control and he or she felt unable to stop the investigation."

Now imagine that there is no presumption of innocence on the accused's part.

CaptainVanderdecken · 2013-03-14T01:57:36+00:00

One word: No.

In the spirit of serving & protecting ALL, given the fact that false accusations occur too many times, Police should take the "victim" to the hospital. If no physical evidence is found corroborating the accusation (while treating the alleged crime) then the "victim" should remain in the hospital for 72 hours of psychiatric evaluation.

Only then would the Police be "serving & protecting" plus the crazy bitches could do no more harm for at least 3 days.

nc863id · 2013-03-14T04:39:14+00:00

Just in case anyone is missing how fucked up the reasoning here is, just replace every instance of the words "rape," "sexual assault," or whatever other related verbiage with the word "crime" and it should soak right into the ol' grey matter.

This isn't even a men's rights issue -- this isn't an attack against this or that single group. It's an assault upon the notion of the rule of law, against the very idea of a civil society.

Bla34112 · 2013-03-14T10:54:07+00:00

The study released on Wednesday by the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) reveals that during the 17-month test period – when all false allegation cases were referred to the DPP – there were 5,651 prosecutions for rape and 111,891 for domestic violence in England and Wales.

By comparison, over the same timespan, there were only 35 prosecutions for making false allegations of rape, six for false allegations of domestic violence and three that involved false allegations of both rape and domestic violence.

Really? Because the amount of false alligation is indicated by the amount of false prosecutions?

Because the courts are infallible, right? False alligations are easy to tell apart from justified alligations, right?

hardwarequestions · 2013-03-13T13:14:03+00:00

I'd encourage everyone to check the "other discussions" tab and spend some time discussing the topic in other subs.

2013-03-13T14:45:01+00:00

This makes me wanna throw up.

TheGDBatman · 2013-03-13T15:01:38+00:00

I guess the Guardian is the feminist Daily Mail now...

I'm going to have to start taking them both with a grain of salt, I guess.

kellykebab · 2013-03-13T20:36:50+00:00

Title has nothing to do with article. Move along.

noodleworm · 2013-03-13T21:49:43+00:00

Its actually a really interesting debate that makes sense form both sides. One one hand, yes false rape accusations do happen, We should assume suspects to be innocent until proven guilty, and then we have to think of the consequences a rape accusation has on an innocent man.

On the other hand, (I don't have statistics, im guessing here) its possible actual rape is more common than false rape accusations, especially since the majority of women victims, either don't report the incident, and those who do mostly never lead to a conviction.

So I think both need to be examined, and some common ground found. I think if you try and understand what effect the current system is having on actual victims, them you can see why people are making misguided statements such as this. Genuine victims are basically shamed, accused of being sluts who regret poor decisions from the night before.

The main motivation for reporting a rape is usually along the lines of making sure the rapist doesn't do this to another person, but as most most people are raped by someone they know they could possibly hold themselves more accountable for the situation, and feel the rapist is less dangerous to others than a violent random-attack rape.

Now false accusations though, have all sorts of different motivations behind them. fear of judgment, other people, revenge, many different posibilites.

The best compromise I can come with is one where there is more of an assumption the victim is telling the truth, yet both are offered protection until there is evidence of guilt. The police should be looking for evidence to back up the claim. But both the victim and alleged perpetrator should not have their names published, or be made common knowledge. The accused needs to be investigated in a more dignified way, giving their statement.

2013-03-13T22:32:05+00:00

Rape can devastate lives, Starmer added. "Such cases will be dealt with robustly and those raped should feel confident that the criminal justice system will prosecute these cases wherever there is sufficient evidence AND it is in the public interest to do so."

See what I did there?

blueoak9 · 2013-03-13T15:30:50+00:00

I was going to comment here but the bigotry and stupidity were just too thick.

Just disgusting that even in a place like Britain there is so little regard for the rule of law.

Geno777 · 2013-03-13T15:36:46+00:00

The united states jails more of its men than any other country on earth, with feminists calling for even more men to be jailed [so much for 'patriarchy theory']. Then come on the internet as concern trolls trying to tell antifeminists to "calm down". It's because too many men are calm that we allowed ourselves to be put in this position in the first place!

Let's say I have a female loved one who was raped. If I don't merk'em myself, I wouldn't want the police chasing innocent men, diverting attention and resources from real rape victims!!!

Feminists advocating for the persecution of innocent men, denying justice for actual rape victims, is the most disgusting type of misogyny imaginable! If she can't prove she was raped, she goes to jail. If he can't prove rape, he goes to jail. The End.

But I digress...

I'm not an MRA. I'm MGTOW. So the powers that be and feminists can do what the fuck they want. What's more important at this point is what I'm going to do about it.

American [and western] women are booty calls only. They should never know your last name. They should never know where you live. Always use a condom. That you buy yourself. That you flush yourself. She should never have physical contact with your sperm out of your sight. I will sire children on my terms. When she says no, respect it and replace her immediately. In america, if it flies, floats, or fucks, it's cheaper to rent.

Don't be a nice guy. Don't engage in PUA pussy-pedestalling. Your girl ain't special, and she's easily replaceable. Want to enter relationships or marry? Go to a non-western country that isn't a feminist stronghold. Marry her in that country and stay there. Then get on the internet and blast feminist bitches while your foreign wife is preparing your meal. Bon apetit!

Oh, and keep your visa current. That way, if feminist bitches come into that country and take over, you're on the next plane out of that motherfucker! MGTOW for life!!

cleetdog101 · 2013-03-13T17:14:44+00:00

Bullshit! Investigations should be conducted like Dr. House was in charge: Everybody Lies! Assume that and work from there...

iongantas · 2013-03-13T18:10:56+00:00

Every time I see someone wanting to assume guilt for anything, I want them to be the person that was wrongfully accused, sentenced and punished.

lordslag · 2013-03-13T15:04:35+00:00

Okay, then how about this: "Prostitution accusations should proceed with the assumption that women are whores; believing that the allegation is false and should be proven is a "misplace belief"."

If one is bullshit, so is the other, but fairness isn't in the minds of today's western feminists, only revenge and privilege.

EPIC_BAGELS9000 · 2013-03-13T16:44:22+00:00

What is wrong with people? You're not supposed to assume anyone is guilty without evidence! "Innocent until proven guilty"

jack_gats · 2013-03-13T15:27:12+00:00

Let me ask a question: when was it we heard of a real rape happening? I mean a plain-vanilla rape everyone would recognise as rape? If someone were teletransported from the 18th century and were presented with our "rape" cases, they would go: "which rape"? Shouldn't we have a yearly International Rape Day for men to go on a rampage and REALLY rape women to remind them what the word means? Besides if men are going to be accused of rape anyway, whatever they do and don't do, they might as well go out there and do the real thing. Rapes are historically at an all-time low and accusations are at an all-time high.

Title	Rape investigations should proceed with assumption that men are guilty; believing that the allegation is false and should be proven is a "misplaced belief".
Author	[deleted]
Upvotes	337
Comments	223
Date	March 13, 2013 11:40 AM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/mensrights/comments/1a7kop/rape-investigations-should-proceed-with-assumption/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/rape-investigations-should-proceed-with-assumption.1608135 https://theredarchive.com/post/1608135

Comments