TRP is not based on science, it's based on what intuitively sounds true

BecretAlbatross · 2023-04-26T20:24:33+00:00

I think all of these could be true points and it still wouldn't even debunk 20% of the redpill as an ideology tbh

azwildcat74 · 2023-04-26T18:19:56+00:00

Straight from one of your own sources:

finding reliable and accurate infidelity statistics between males and females can be problematic as only a limited number of people are surveyed

Anecdotally I know several people, both men and women, who only ever admit to having cheated to very few and select trusted people. Anything that relies on self-reporting is going to be less than true science because people are going to lie, straight up.

The fact of the matter is that there's no science confirming or denying any of this stuff, nor will there likely ever be as most of what's done seems activist or at least biased in nature.

_corpus_callosum · 2023-04-26T20:23:42+00:00

… Yes and no.

The red pill is a philosophy. So is blue pill, purple pill, etc. Do you know what philosophy is? It’s interpretation of science and data in attempt to prescribe application and meaning to it. Or, as most philosophers would say, “the search for truth.”

So… while the red pill is not strict science, neither is any other pill. They’re all philosophies.

When I think I’ve actually found some intellectuals on Reddit, it never fails to disappoint me.

dynospectrum7 · 2023-04-26T18:39:49+00:00

Why did you purposefully misconstrue the empathy position?

“I propose this because women’s solipsistic nature (predicated on hypergamy) necessarily excludes them from empathizing with the male experience – and this extends to men’s legitimate pain.”

The male experience. Not just no empathy.

dowehavetoreally · 2023-04-27T00:30:13+00:00

Women's hypergamous nature is science. Women mate across and up social dominance hierarchies, men mate across and down.

Women's mating strategies, including their "dual mating conundrum" are based on parental investment theory which is grounded in much scientific research. This conundrum explains why different "classes" of men are treated entirely differently by women. It also explains why some men get a "straight path to her bed" pass and other men have to earn the "potential boyfriend" pass. And we men have seen it first hand as well. A woman we were trying to get with romantically has us jumping through hoops, then on Monday morning we find out she hooked up with a random guy. Red Pill is the ego death that allows men to finally admit there is a difference between men and how women treat these men.

The trouble is, you can cite scientific research and studies until you are blue in the face and you get the following responses from blue pill, especially feminists:

Evolutionary psychology as a FIELD is 100% debunked. (What is actually debunked is Patriarchy Theory and Wage Gap)
Any studies showing men and women have biology-based mating imperatives are wrong because only animals exhibit these behaviors.
That a particular study/paper is not "peer reviewed" when in fact it's just not peer reviewed by the correct group of left-wing ideologues.

In any case, to deny Red Pill is to deny the lived experiences of men. Oh, there's another example of the sexist double standards and hypocrisy. Those who's hair spontaneously combust if a man were to "deny women's lived experiences" do this exact same thing to men on the regular.

I know Red Pill to be true because it mirrors my lived experiences and experiences with woman (both sexual and non-sexual) almost to the letter. That's all I need to know. Red Pill works for me and it protects me from this odd innate desire to want to pedestalize women and overlook some of their shittiest behaviors (one of which is to suggest only men exhibit shitty behaviors!)

Words spoken by women, and written here, are of secondary importance.

Primary importance is to listen to women less and watch female behavior more.

I don't need to listen to what people think they are doing when I can simply watch what they are doing.

Holden_Frame · 2023-04-26T20:49:50+00:00

These are all debatable, and I'd hazard to guess that this is largely based on self reporting which notoriously skews women's sexual admissions. So throw the "cheating" one out based on that.

With "empathy", I'd agree that women show more empathy outwardly towards people experiencing misfortune, however they do not extend that empathy towards men in general.

The empathy gap and women-are-wonderful are factors here as well.

I don't even think it can be argued that women judge men far more harshly than they would say children, the elderly or other groups.

The ones that you did not address (conveniently) are:

Hypergamy
Preselection
In-Group Bias
Sexual revulsion toward emotionally weak men
Social Assassination / Reputation Sabotage
Dual Mating Behavior
Susceptibility to things like "dread" and "negging"

All of those are RP truths / concepts that, afaik, are not even acknowledged elsewhere.

katyushas_boyfriend · 2023-04-26T18:43:14+00:00

Recent studies have debunked the idea that women's sexual preferences. Yet many Red Pillers still cling to the idea.

Even if the ovulatory shift hypothesis is incorrect, I don't think that rules out the possibility of their AF/BB theory, or cuckolding as an evolved reproductive mechanism in human females.

Some genetic research estimates that in prehistoric human hunter-gatherers, prior to the Neolithic revolution*, around 3-5 females reproduced for every male.

* the massive drop in estimated male reproductive population size (Y chromosome side) starting 10 000 years before present coincides with the advent of agriculture, I'm not going referring to that. Even before that there was a massive reproductive disparity between males and females.

Red Pillers say that women are solipsistic and men are empathetic.

I've never never once seen anyone on TRP say that men are more empathetic than women.

Many Red Pillers say that women's self-esteem is too high and that they need to be knocked down a peg. Yet men have a higher self-esteem than women.

People often suggest that internally low self-esteem tends to manifest itself in outwardly assertive behavior, at least in men. Hence, "Napoleon syndrome", "he's compensating for something with his car", etc.

I don't think having low self-esteem internally is mutually with exclusive behaving in a haughty fashion.

Red Pillers imply that women cheat more than men. Even this appears to be untrue.

It should be noted that the research they cite focuses exclusively on married couples, and that questions regarding infidelity are likely subject to heavy social desirability bias.

At any rate I personally don't believe that women cheat more.

AnUnstableNucleus · 2023-04-26T18:21:38+00:00

Red Pillers say that women are solipsistic and men are empathetic. Yet many studies show that women are more empathetic than men.

Yeah, but are women solipsistic ?

SecondEldenLord · 2023-04-26T22:16:59+00:00

These are all anectodal though. TRP goes by a lot more studies than the one that seems suitable to your views. It has been shown many times that women are less empathetic than men because women lose respect to men who show their emotions. Also, yes, more women have a lot more self esteem than men, because very rarely you will see an unattractive man who thinks he is entitled to a model woman but very often you will se an unattractive woman who thinks she is a 10 and deserves a 10 guy. And yes, women cheat more cause they have more options. I personally can find so much more data that disproves your points.

Flightlessbirbz · 2023-04-27T00:08:32+00:00

A lot of it is basically a pseudoscience tbh. They cherry pick studies, use their own sciency-sounding but unscientific language, misuse scientific terms, and act like their little “theories” (that definitely don’t meet the criteria for a scientific theory) are facts. It reminds me of the “science” racists and xenophobes used to use to show how “inferior” other groups of people were based on the shape of their skulls or some shit.

Maelas84 · 2023-04-27T10:19:41+00:00

Ok so what about this 90% of women want the top 10% of men? Plenty of dating sites put out stats on this if I remember correctly? Is this also untrue?

WilliamWyattD · 2023-04-27T12:49:12+00:00

TRP is ostensibly based on the best estimations we have of gender dynamics using a multi-disciplinary approach. It is supposed to draw from everything. It's main selling point was that it was not going to distort the truth due to any kind of political correctness or desire to be nice or sooth feelings, etc.

But ofc there is no hard science of gender dynamics. It isn't physics. All the disciplines, from evo psych to theology to behavioral 'sciences' are very soft sciences at best.

Now, have a lot of TRP thinkers succumbed to their own biases? Probably. Hard to avoid some of that when real scientific rigor is impossible in this space. But this is all different than say evo pysch just being people making shit up.

bifewova234 · 2023-04-26T18:22:39+00:00

I dont even know what it means to be red-pilled specifically. Is there some list of beliefs? I havent seen one. What I do like about TRP is the metaphor of accepting the truth regardless of how bitter it is. Thats about discipline in belief formation - Not deluding yourself with feel good denialism about the state of things.

Sad_Top1743 · 2023-04-26T18:23:21+00:00

Women can be more empathetic and also solipsistic

Women can struggle with self esteem issues if they’re primarily attracted to men who can get better

Scarce12 · 2023-04-27T00:13:11+00:00

Recent studies have debunked the idea that women's sexual preferences change based on their menstrual cycle. Ye

A point Rollo Tomassi writes, that this correlates with the recent increase in participation of women in this field, causing a replication crisis.

It hasn't been debunked btw.

But it's certainly obvious that the research papers now, compared to papers 20 years ago, are written in a more censored style, particularly when it comes to dual mating strategy.

Many Red Pillers say that women's self-esteem is too high and that they need to be knocked down a peg. Yet men have a higher self-esteem than women.

The statistic that doesn't lie on this is suicide.

Suicide statistics are far more accurate than this bunk research saying men are too confident.

Red Pillers imply that women cheat more than men. Even this appears to be untrue.

Pre-wall women cheat more than men. That appears true.

SteveSan82 · 2023-04-27T05:28:15+00:00

Did you even read your own links? It straight out says these are anecdotal.

Women viewing lying differently than men. So she will cheat on her boyfriend but say it’s not cheating but just practice

tricep_bro · 2023-04-26T23:39:26+00:00

You are using a few singular studies to discredit some redpill talking points.

Not only is that not enough to discredit them (especially the men having higher self esteem than women and men cheating more, very arguable), but the fact that you are using research to discredit redpill theory proves that it is scientific.

Also, whether we like it or not, redpill is the most scientific research there is on relationship dynamics.

Bluepill thinking certainly isnt close.

And traditional approach is a bit better than bluepill but doesnt take into account the changes to the dating market and dating dynamics in the modern world.

asdf333aza · 2023-04-27T03:28:25+00:00

People against the TRP would tell you that a women is just as hot in her 40s or 50s as she was in her 20s. They'll tell you the 200 pound girl deserves just as much attention as the 130 pound girl.

Some times you just gotta leave them to your own thoughts and do your own thing. Like Leonardo. Be in your 40s and 50s and banging 20s somethings. Women will be mad and men will Wan to be you.

rootsnyder · 2023-04-26T21:54:48+00:00

Tries to debunk the redpill:

Provides minor evidence against almost irrelevant redpill concepts that no one in the redpill really clings to.

Mayybbe 5% of redpillers believe women cheat more then men.

Maybe 2% believe men are more empathetic.

Zero percent believe women have higher self esteem, HOWEVER, 99% believe women shoot far above their worth in the dating world and 99% believe strongly in the evolutionary mechanisms for this entitlement.

As for your dual mating "victory" I hate to make you fall right off your high horse, but dual mating comes from observations in the primate world, nearly all apes have been observed to mate in this behavior, the whatever the hell period study was largely irrelevant, no matter how much it was posted, and honestly I have doubts your study really has disproven much on that study either.

Come back when you do some actual digging to debunk us and I'll give you an actual argument.

Sabrepill · 2023-04-27T01:41:33+00:00

Red pillers mix in a lot of objective truths with extremism and exaggerations. For the most part it’s very good to be red pill aware and understand all of the “uncomfortable truths” without believing their conclusions

AloneOnTheStrange · 2023-04-27T03:29:11+00:00

Most of TRP is anecdotal. For myself, I don't consider that a bad thing. Not because anecdotal evidence should be trusted over scientific studies, but because the scientific studies aren't going to be accurate unless they're targeting these specific ideas.

If you go out every day and see and live the things TRP says are true, it's hard to reject that because some scientific studies say it doesn't happen.

Maybe if they targeted your situation better, I might give them more weight. For example, the study that says women are more empathetic than men. Who are they more empathetic to? Starving children and sick puppies? Their boyfriends? Other women? Lonely unattractive males? Victims publicised on social media campaigns?

LouisdeRouvroy · 2023-04-27T00:39:17+00:00

Red Pillers say that women are solipsistic and men are empathetic. Yet many studies show that women are more empathetic than men.

There's a difference between understanding how others FEEL and understanding why others act.

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Specialist-Action-33 · 2023-04-27T04:30:38+00:00

Im gonna play devil's advocate here and say its mostly anecdotal experiences coupled with confirmation bias

DiamondLilyD · 2023-04-27T11:01:31+00:00

Men don't care about facts, they care about what "feels" right to them.

DzejSiDi · 2023-04-27T12:21:12+00:00

Ok. I've read research from frontiers in psychology

In a remarkable study, Roney and Simmons (2013) asked 43 naturally ovulating women to complete a daily diary, which included daily ratings of women's sexual desire, over the course of up to two full cycles. Saliva was collected nearly every day for assays of estradiol, progesterone, and testosterone.

Super solid "science" in form of self-filled questionares strikes again, empirical PUA's findings in shambles. At least hormones measuring is legit.

For one, hormones could affect libido (...)

XD I mean, it's 100% true, but for me it sounds like "getting hit with stick might hurt." Yeah... that's possible.

Fourth, our understanding of women's sexuality, including possible differences between estrous and extended sexuality, is not well established.

They took a study that sounds like redpill 101 and did some polemic with it in direction "eeeh it's hard to say" + usual replication crisis in soft science. Where's the debunk?

This debunk exist in the head of datepsychology guy, which possess some decent trp knowledge, but definitely not good enough, which is especially visible here: https://datepsychology.com/what-the-manosphere-gets-wrong-about-alphas-and-betas/

The only true part is half of the title: TRP is not science based indeed, evo psych is science based, to be more precise it's a soft science and due to that cannot be proven or disproven by one published paper lol that's not math

KayRay1994 · 2023-04-27T14:36:59+00:00

I think a lot of RP “science” is based on some initial truths, ex. gendered behavior primarily driven by hormonal differences, societal and cultural roles across centuries, social beliefs becoming the norm and so on - but where the redpill fails dramatically is that it takes an initial truth, blows it out of proportion, misinterprets things and mixes it with very strong personal biases, so the end product of what RP “science” resembles only has about 1-10% of the real truth involved layered and slathered with a whole lotta bs - RP beliefs are the very best example of “give an inch, take a mile”

Ohyarlysmiles · 2023-04-27T18:44:21+00:00

TRP is right about us living in a gynocentric society and there is pervasive anti male bias (I was shocked too).

It's wrong about the effectiveness of game....the main practical nugget in TRP.

Billsandasonom · 2023-04-27T19:26:16+00:00

Women are more empathetic in general - more likely to exercise empathy and care toward humanity, their communities, and re: for example social or environmental causes, but actually less so in the context of dating and any prospective or current men.

Ohms2North · 2023-04-27T22:38:26+00:00

Women may not cheat more than men, but they cheat a hell of a lot more than Society is prepared to admit

HobbitShaker88 · 2023-04-28T17:26:14+00:00

Alot of studies arent criticized enough so I cannot take to heart any of this or really any post here using studies most of the time. For instance, many studies show men cheat more, some show women cheat more (these are cited constantly in the divorce subreddit here as it is mostly men) the most well conducted studies show genders cheat the same amount. Many studies show women do more childcare and housework, a few show men do, the best ones show women still do more but maybe not as much as you think as a median.

I cringe at people posting Google studies and not studies that have gone through the rigors of the scientific process and that one needs a research login most of the time to fully access. You can find any study off of Google to support what you think. The ones I described are the ones that should be taken more seriously and they all list their flaws too so its obvious which ones are more credible.

TRP is a bunch of egotistical, selfish, shallow, often bitter men finding things to justify their worldview. To me they are like conservative Christians who use the Bible to justify their views.

LingonberryGood3915 · 2023-04-30T21:21:43+00:00

TRP is based on science. the scientific method is observation to theory to presiction to testing/looking it stats and how good the prediction is. the theory has to be cohesive with currently valid theories and observations/data.

all of that is the definition of RP. they observe how women act, develop a theory based on observations and evolution/culture, make predictions beyond their initial observations, and look at data/collective experiences as well as stats if available.

that's certainly far more scientific than anything women or even all major scientific institutions or text books claim

Title	TRP is not based on science, it's based on what intuitively sounds true
Author	Novel-Tip-7570
Upvotes	52
Comments	203
Date	April 26, 2023 6:15 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/12zsdue/trp_is_not_based_on_science_its_based_on_what/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/trp-is-not-based-on-science-its-based-on-what.1216869 https://theredarchive.com/post/1216869

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