Time to get positive. What would help alienated men?

lolalion2313 · 2014-05-27T23:34:18+00:00

I believe that until we fix society, and let it be okay for men to feel things, and display things that are considered 'weak' there wont be a way to fix it. And it sucks. Men have so much pressure put on them by society. They are not only expected to do everything correctly, and fairly but blamed when any little thing goes wrong.

AlexReynard · 2014-05-27T22:54:25+00:00

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AlexReynard · 2014-05-28T00:25:29+00:00

I'm being serious about this: we should give away Doug Stanhope CDs to young men.

This routine in particular cuts through so much bullshit about the pressure we feel to have sex and the actual realities of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=QYA9DaSIddo#t=231 I wanna hear the word "Blort!" everywhere. When some kid's being picked on for being a virgin, I want him to look back at the assholes and make fun of them for centering their whole concept of self-worth around BLORT. When a woman tries to manipulate you into spending all sorts of money on her before she'll show any kind of affection, I want the guy to reply "How 'bout instead I just go home and BLORT! for free?" I want people to wake up to the fact that this is the 21st fucking century, and we have better things to do with our lives, to enrich ourselves as human beings, or plan for our careers, than to waste all our focus on the unending quest for BLORT.

Also, unrelated, I'd love to spread the message to young people that ROMANTIC COMEDIES AND ACTION FILMS ARE FUCKING TERRIBLE FOR RELATIONSHIP ADVICE. You will never have a stable relationship with anybody if you think that all it takes is just waiting for the perfect person to drop into your lap, and then performing circus tricks for them until they start loving you. I'd tell them to throw the very notion of Disneyfied romantic love in the toilet and just look for someone who'd make a great best friend. The best thing you can say to yourself when you're starting out finding a relationship is this: "Why am I worth it? Am I a person I'd date? What kind of person do I like to be around? Why do I like them?" And the best thing to remember about other people is: A great personality can make an ugly face turn beautiful in time. But the prettiest looks can only hide a toxic heart so long.

tallwheel · 2014-05-28T03:38:01+00:00

I think a good start would be creating an honest awareness of just how much males attach their self-worth (and worth of fellow males) to how much attention and sex they receive from females. We can take a page from MGTOW philosophy and teach men that their value is not determined by how much sex they get - or even whether or not there is a woman in their life.

Of course there will be no way to stop men from continuing to base their value on female attention, but I think the most important step is just being more brutally honest about it in the public discourse. There is already some dialogue out there for girls telling them they don't necessarily need a man or marriage to be happy (most hope to get married anyway), but the way everyone ignores the elephant in the room about female validation is getting us nowhere.

LemurTech · 2014-05-28T00:53:42+00:00

I'm thinking back to my life as a socially-awkward kid in the early years of high school. I'm wondering what it would have been like if, every year, there had been a required workshop lasting a few weeks, in which girls and boys were exposed to materials and discussions about these issues, in such as way that they could receive both validation ("there are others who feel as I do") as well as coping mechanisms ("I don't have to feel this way, at least not forever.") I could imagine much of the time in same-sex groups, led by same-sex teachers, but also with cross-over interactions. Have a variety of ways of digging into the issues: some will need more extroverted approaches, while others will require more introverted means. An intelligent course designer could find "media" for most temperaments, while having novel ways to bring together temperaments that would not normally gravitate toward each other?

What is it really like to be a "geek", a "jock", a "slacker", a "bully", the "bullied", or one of the other groups that kids pigeon-hole each other and themselves into? Every type of kid has their challenges and insecurities. The more kids come to understand this, the more chances their are to develop empathy and perspective. And talk about some of the harsher realities of young romantic attractions, and the reasons (perhaps from an evolutionary standpoint) of why these relationship can be so stereotypical (e.g., pretty girl + jock) at that age. But also with plenty of examples of how life will soon turn many of those dynamics around. Socially awkward geeks can, and often do, end up being very attractive to beautiful women. Those kids that were so popular in high school can also end up with very ordinary lives (and very ordinary-looking spouses). Show some real stories, find people to come in and talk about their lives.

Commission well-known, ballsy comedians to record fresh routines that deal with issues like depression, masturbation, fear of the opposite sex, rejection, alienation, virgin-shaming, creep-shaming, same-sex attraction, etc. Topics that the typical teacher can't bring up without loosing face in front of the kids who see them every day.

I'm just throwing out ideas, and I've gotta run, but maybe someone else can pick up on this.

outhouse_steakhouse · 2014-05-28T04:02:11+00:00

Over in /r/adviceanimals I saw a few guys posting confession bears saying they felt scared when they realized how much they had in common with Elliott Rodger. They were virgins, lonely, frustrated, and resentful of other people who were enjoying sex. The typical response was very disheartening: "Fuck you, go kill yourself before you kill anyone else." Elliot Rodger said that if only one person had responded to him and shown some sympathy, he would have called off his plan. What if there is another Elliott Rodger waiting in the wings, desperately reaching out and crying for help, and people slap him down with "Fuck you, go kill yourself"? That's why I made a point of answering at least one of those posts, and I would encourage other people to do the same.

theDarkAngle · 2014-05-28T03:46:50+00:00

Sort of touched on this in another thread...

Comedy. In my opinion it's usually the precursor to changing views. Black sitcoms helped humanize black characters in the eyes of white people. Will and Grace and various characters in romantic comedies helped humanize gay people in the eyes of straight people.

I still have yet to see a buddy comedy movie where Seth Rogen keeps trying to get Jay Baruchel laid and after much in the way of failure and comedic hijinks, Jay finally realizes he doesn't need to have sex to see himself as a man. If they made that movie, the ending would be that Jay Baruchel somehow magically gets the girl he liked all along and has lots of crazy sex with her until the sequel.

Because somehow as a culture we don't see male virgins as fully grown people. And, with the way our culture is going sexually, it's time we did, because lifelong virginity is trending upwards.

thatnewballsmell · 2014-05-28T13:13:04+00:00

Just want to point out that after recognizing these kinds of problems, the next step needs to be asking WHY these problems exist the way they do in/for men, and not immediately jumping around looking for a fix else we're just focusing on symptoms and not working to eliminate problems. I mean really sitting down and taking the time to give it serious thought and discussion. This is something feminism has been historically notorious for not doing. Not enough female STEM grads? Throw money at it, programs at it, push women into it, quotas, all the focusing on the desired outcome and disregarding the root cause. Creates all kinds of problems down the line. Unforeseen consequences are a hallmark for this line of thinking.

I'll use loneliness as an example since it's first on that list. Anyone can experience loneliness, and everyone experiences it at some point in their life. Is it different in men? If so, how and why? You can be the most popular guy in town and still feel lonely, likewise you can be perfectly content living in isolation. I think when most people picture a typically lonely male, they're picturing an unpopular guy who doesn't make friends easily and wants more social interaction than he's getting, but for whatever reason feels that he cannot.

Men don't have to fit this stereotype to feel lonely, so is it worth separating the different kind of men who feel lonely and addressing them? (I'd say yes if you have unlimited time and resources) Is it also worth looking for some underlying issues with loneliness that most men deal with as men, regardless of the type of men they are? I'd say yes to that as well.

Let's go further. Why do we picture a lonely man as a loner, unpopular, and socially stunted, awkward, or anxious? Does isolation, popularity, social grace, assertiveness and comfort in social situations, and anxiety share a causal relationship with loneliness? Perhaps the other way around? If so, why? Does that relationship affect men more than women? If so, why? Does loneliness often occur in tandem with another problem on that list? (Mental illness, Alienation from society, Virgin shaming, etc) If so, which ones? Any others? Why?

I could do this all day, but I think what would happen if you dug into all those problems listed and asked why they affect men the way they do, you'd find that masculinity is pretty close to bare metal. How we define it, drill it into men, what happens when they fail to meet its expectations, how we handle and treat men who do not, how women help define it and expect men to adhere to it, etc. The traditional definition of masculinity has in it a kind of built-in defense against redefinition even when it desperately needs it. Don't complain, keep your head up, man up, to say nothing of the obligations to others. These parts of masculinity work to prevent men from redefining what it means to be men. It keeps men from helping themselves. I like Karen and GWW, but it really says something when it takes a woman to be one of the most prominent voices in the public eye advocating for men, because men cannot voice their own problems without emasculating themselves. In contrast, to make an extremely generalized and very un-PC claim about it, "bitching" and complaining until you get what you want is damn near synonymous to the vicarious way women exert power for themselves. If men criticize or complain about what it means to be men, it immediately dismisses them as being men because criticizing or complaining about your situation is "feminine". It's one hell of a catch-22.

Feminism demanded to be the forefront expert on gender issues, and while they've fought for women to be whatever they wanted to be, live under a traditional view of womanhood, or co-opt those things traditionally expected of men and viewed as "maleness", or both, they have collectively sat on their asses when it's come to opening the door for men to be anything but what the traditional definition allowed. Letting your son dress up as a Disney Princess for Halloween and letting him cry doesn't cut it. Not when he's still expected to compete for your attention when he grows up, not when you forget he exists when he's unsuccessful, not when you keep him from his kids, not when you use him for his money, not when you expect him to be the one to fight your wars, not when you dismiss his problems, not when you call him a monster for what other men do, not when you demonize his sexuality, and everything else on that list up top, etc. You don't get to co-opt what it is you've define as masculinity and claim it's positive when women express those traits, cherry pick those things to keep about manhood that benefits women, and turn a blind eye to the rest, and try to fucking eliminate a group of men who have come together to discuss these things away from your influence.

Feminists failed men especially in this regard, and when addressing these male problems I think it is imperative to learn from their failures as not to repeat them. That means sitting down and really taking a look at how these problems arise, how they fit into the bigger picture, and what actions need be done to actually fix them while reducing additional problems down the road. Men and women, feminist or not, will fight any attempt to radically redefine manhood. Women will lose privilege they claim not to have because of it, men will resist it because of masculinty's aversion to redefinition, it will make losing gender roles for women look like a fucking walk in the park. But it's required if we want to address all of these problems and ever hope to fix them.

EnderWyatt · 2014-05-27T23:21:21+00:00

I guess we should tackle the notion that men aren't inherently masculine. I've experienced this as I suffer from Muscular Dysphoria. (In case no one is familiar) Essentially male anorexia, MD is the belief that your body doesn't live up to the standard set by body builders, wrestlers, boxers, etc. The fear that you're inadequate due to body size, musculature, and interests that don't line up to the "Perfect Man" stereotype.

When I was younger, I would starve myself and was rarely ever happy enough to not think about how my body looked or how I carried myself. And it didn't help that in my school, "emo" boys, "cutters", or "pussies" (essentially, if you weren't all about masculinity and showed the smallest signs of effeminacy, as I did and do, you were teased) were immediately labled as faggots and bullied mercilessly. So looking for adult help or help from my peers wasn't an option.

If I had an effeminate or overweight role model to look up to, I think I would've been a lot more comfortable in my own skin

I dunno, just food for thought I guess.

YetAnotherCommenter · 2014-05-28T06:07:16+00:00

Removal of gender norms which demand men "man up and deal with it" rather than seek help. This will have to be done from an MHRM perspective, focusing on men's problems. This is not to be framed in an hostile-to-women manner... both sexes' problems are interrelated and we can't blame any specific sex for this. Warren Farrell's statement about "when any one sex 'wins', both sexes lose" is the key principle here... its not a fight between men and women.

Recognition that 'non-alpha' men are actually human beings with innate rights and dignity. This is related to the above. A campaign focusing on the evils of the bullying which non-gender-optimal men face should be part of this... the macho dominance heirarchy crap starts in school after all.

Honest discussions about what women want. Face it, they like handsome (not hyper-butch grizzled, not delicate/femmy), athletically-muscular, confident men. Social status and wealth can play a factor in this too, and in some cases may outweigh the looks issue. There are also exceptions to this rule... its a generality. But we need to, as a society, accept that women are just as sexually superficial as men. Their sexuality is not devoid of Throbbing Biological Urges.

Respect for the concept of male spaces, just as much as we respect women's spaces. These are important support groups, particularly for non-gender-compliant men. The feminist war on 'nerd' culture as the source of all evil is in fact more damaging to gender-nonconformist men than it is to TRUE MACHO ALPHA MALES (GAAAAAAR).

dungone · 2014-05-28T01:36:16+00:00

Start off by convincing these visitors that feminists who pull fire alarms during talks about male suicide don't help.

We have to go further than merely demonstrating that we didn't cause a mentally ill person to go on a kiling spree, but that allowing men's groups to organize freely is actually the best hope there was of preventing the tragedy.

Somebody on a bodybuilding forum had referred to this guy as Patrick Bateman, the main character of American Psycho, famously quoted by one of the Duke Lacrosse players. Had this occurred within the context of a men's center on campus instead of an anonymous online forum, this level of openness and understanding could have actually resulted in something being done to save lives.

FirstBestLastChance · 2014-05-28T01:23:58+00:00

Boys need something to make them Men, Women have this inherent marker that they are growing up, becoming fertile or sexually mature, and in a way its a marker of the transition into adulthood. Men have no such thing but for the greater part of human history men have had certain other things that did this trick, ceremonies, special celebrations, initiation into different groups, from entering apprenticeships to military groups.

So what does this mean and what am I trying to say? So what I think it means is that it is a critical element to be a part of something, to feel that you are a member of a group, or brotherhood/sisterhood/dragonkinhood. The idea that the shared experiences in a group setting validate worth as an individual, women all (knowing there are medical issues that prevent this from someone and barring women who have transitioned from being men) have menses. Men do not have that luxury.

At this point with society, at least looking at most of north america, kids are just shuffled through to adulthood. Yes, you have high school graduations, crap like that, but non of it really is a tangible marker of transition, or a bonding moment with same sex peers.

So yeah, Men need to have something that marks the move to adulthood and men need to bond with other men.

I would easily wager that young men taking part in group sports, or young men who have been in the armed forces have less rates of these problems, oddly Judaism as well, I am not sure about Islamic traditions if they have a rite of passage.

I just kind of stumbled here from looking up info from a facebook post, so I do not really know what all is entailed in the MRM, I just think that any moment that is based on equality should not have a name the leans toward a gender.

Gawrsh · 2014-05-28T11:14:13+00:00

Mmm, I've also noticed "masculine" and "effeminate" behavior being mentioned.

Neither of those two behaviors should be gendered. Even calling them masculine and effeminate gives them a gender.

Aggressive, confrontational behavior is by far not male only, and unaggressive non-confrontational behavior by far is not female only.

Going back to males: for a male, these are two equally valid axis to be on.

If I had an effeminate or overweight role model to look up to, I think I would've been a lot more comfortable in my own skin.

If I could, I'd give past you a hug, EnderWyatt. You never deserved that.

Don't think of one mode of being any more valid than another. That's where we have to de-gender those words, whether feminists like it or not.

And if they want to be a part of this, they need to sit down, be quiet and LISTEN. (Not so much fun when someone says it to you, is it? :P)

There's room for the aggressive people who jump into things first, try new things and are passionate about their desires (so long as, like all aggressive people should, they are still considerate of others)

And there's room and equal importance for non-aggressive people. They often see things that their aggressive counterparts may miss while rushing ahead like they tend to do.

"toxic masculinity" is a lot like "bossy" (I don't want to hear which is worse, but the concept is the same)

The masculine root should not be vilified or pedestalized.

Change the language, so instead of behavior pointing to a gender, it describes a mode of human expression.

(And no, Alpha, Beta and whatever Greek word salad some people use, is not the way to describe this. Each word should have equal value to the other words, since each mode of expression is equally important and valuable.)

2014-05-29T06:08:28+00:00

If Elliot Roger proved one thing, its that money, attractiveness (he wasn't a bad looking guy), or fame (relative fame in his case) does not make your life any more enjoyable or help you attract women. Its all about your personality, and a huge chunk of your personality is self-esteem. I know plenty of guys who are into geeky things (games, shows), old things (music, movies) and without their self-esteem they would be loners/losers. You have to respect yourself and love yourself before anyone else can, as cliche as it sounds. Just remember, you have as much right to be here as anyone else, and you have as much right to like yourself as other people like themselves. No one "earns" happiness or self-esteem, its something that comes innate to most people, and that a few of us unfortunately have to work to cultivate. You're a product of nature, so quite literally the fact that you're on this Earth is not an accident. You were meant to be here. How you spend your time here, however, is your choice.

Loneliness- Its hard to address this without knowing the context of the person's life. For instance, if you're in school it is rather easy to make friends, so long as you have a descent reputation (aren't bullied/weird). At work you just have to be willing to talk to people. In all honesty, the older you get, the less important friendships become to you. In recent studies, the majority of people have from 0-2 friends that they can confide in. So just know that you're not alone. The majority of people can't realistically make a meaningful connection with others. That is because our society is still adjusting to the cyber world, and just coming to the realization that Facebook/Twitter/Tumblr can't replace actual human interaction. Loneliness, however, is usually a feeling, not an actual state of being. Lonely people have family, friends, acquaintances around them, but are usually dwelling one one specific person, or their inability to share one specific idea/feeling with their friends. If you feel lonely because you miss a specific person, and have done all you can to reach out to the person with no avail, its time to let go. If you have a feeling you feel you can't share with your friends, seek out a therapist or voice your concerns on the internet. I guarantee someone will listen to you, especially here on Reddit.

Mental Illness- I'm not joking when I say that you should seek therapy. Not only because you might be a danger to yourself, but because you might be a danger to others, and as long as you put off adressing your mental illness in a constructive way, all other aspects of your life (friendship, relationships, happiness) are going to suffer. People can pick up on, for better or worse, when something is "off" about you. Elliot Roger didn't get girls because they could sense something was wrong with him, and they were right. We've all got a "spidey-sense" in us to let us know when someone is not behaving normally. Unfortunately theres still a social stigma attached to mentally ill people, but if you go to a therapist with an open mind, you'll find someone who's willing to see you for who you are, and willing to put your problems into context so you can begin to fix them. Therapy is miraculous, I seriously recommend people try it. TV gives it a really bad name.

Alienation for society- Something that I hope I've made clear in my post so far, is that you're not alone. In fact, so many people are "alienated from society" that the phrase becomes somewhat of an oxymoron. Use resources like the internet to find like minded people. A big disclaimer I'd like to make here is this: I know the majority isn't always right, but if the majority of people enjoy something or behave a certain way, theres a reason behind it. I'm not saying abandon your individuality, but part of being a member of society (which you are, like it or not) is having shared experiences and interests with other human beings. Now, it might be true that the things you're interested in or the views you share are more popular somewhere else (I'm an American that likes European sports and culture) but that doesn't mean that you're alienated, it means your influence is needed in order to change social customs wherever you are, something you cant do if you continue to live in self-imposed exile. I know other people are dumb and insensitive at times, but embrace your fellow humans, faults and all.

Virgin shaming- No one can make you feel bad unless you give them permission. The only thing losing your virginity proves is that you've had sex. Knowing that my best friend, who's hugely popular and attracts women (who are both single and in relationships), is not only a virgin, but went limp when it was time for him to lose his virginity, was a huge relief to me. Even though we live in a sex obsessed society (depending on where you live, America was hugely repressed for so long that now it has jumped to the other side of the spectrum, which isn't healthy) the truth is that in polls, a significant portion of college students said that they were virgins. There are also a number of articles debunking the "hookup culture" myth. Basically, very few people are having more sex than you. And again, its not a competition, it doesn't prove anything other than the fact that you did the deed. There will always be people who will have more sex than you because their sex drives are just higher and their access to sex is just greater. Theres very little you can do about that. You're not obligated to tell anyone that you're a virgin either. I personally don't discuss my sex life with anyone, and neither do my friends who actually have sex. The majority of guys I knew were well into their late teens without even having a girlfriend, and their sex history, or lack of thereof didn't hang over them like a cloud.

Creep shaming- There will always be people who abuse popular labels to make someone feel bad. Again, it takes objectivity. You have to be willing to put yourself in the shoes of the person you're talking to. Elliot Rogers just proved that you can be rich, handsome, and still be creepy. Respect social norms, even if they don't make sense to you. I'm a sex positive person, so naturally I have no problem talking about sex, joking about it, and experimenting with it (verbally crossing boundaries others are too scared to cross). However, American culture is still very sexually repressive, which leads to individuals being guarded to the point of paranoia, but a culture that acts out in protest by hypersexualizing the media. My rule of thumb is, if you were a girl and wouldn't want a guy saying that to you, don't say it to anyone. Another technique I use is imagining my best friend saying or doing something I'm thinking of doing. If it looks odd on their part, its probably odd on yours too.

Depression- Same as mental illness. Therapists can and will help you take care of it. If not, there are medical procedures that can change your thinking pattern. Put your ego aside and seek help. Its better to say that you had to seek out help and were cured than you don't need any help and still feel miserable.

Demonization- Same as creep shaming. If its warranted, simply change the way you behave. If not, attribute it to people being mean and do your best to stay away from those people.

The truth is the solutions to these problems are more complex than reading one post on Reddit. If you actually try, however, you will start to notice changes. I read that someone mentioned meditation. It helps when you're dwelling on things in the past, or future events (that are not guaranteed to happen). Just treat others the way they treat you. Give them the same amount of attention they show you. Make an effort to change the way you see yourself. I know a popular meme these days is for men to be more emotional, more vocal about their problems and so on, but the truth is men focus on acting and looking tough because they get very little out of obsessing over their problems. Women get sympathy for being weak or different, men don't. At the end of the day, you have to decide if your pride or your fear of change outweighs the need to belong in society. Don't be scared to reinvent yourself and do what you have to do to take care of your problems before they fester. All of these problems, can in some form or another, be attributed to an issue that went unaddressed at some point in your life. No one makes it out of life with their ego intact. Stop taking failure so personally. There are millions of people in your shoes, but only a few willing to see that for the fact it is and work towards being the person they want to become. Stop worrying what others think of you. People are resistant to change and might even try to push you back in your place if you try to change. Just ignore it and behave/think like the person you want to be would. The people will notice in due time. Has your perception of a family member or friend change after they went through a dramatic transformation? I know mine has, which is why I have confidence that you will be able to change in a way that not just you, but those around you will notice.

JohnnyCwtb · 2014-05-29T18:05:41+00:00

So I'm exactly the type of person you describe when you say you've "drawn many curious people to see what [you're] about."

At first glance, there are some things I like.

There seems to be a genuine interest in supporting abused/raped/disempowered men, and I completely agree that this is an area where our society has failed - in that respect, I really like the sort of advocacy that I see here. The more you can support this, the better.

That said, so much of this page is filled with comparisons to feminism (why does it have to be an either/or situation? People have problems, we should help them) and worse, there seems to be more than a little outright hated of feminism and feminists, which really goes a long way to confirming the image that Men's Rights forums are little more than echo chambers for men who are angry with women.

I realize that just as there's "no true Scottsman" there's no single person that embodies the ideals of MRA, but I'm really interesting in your thoughts on any or all the following questions.

Do you think that Men have less political power than Women? Why?
Do you think that Men have less religious power than Women? Why?
Do you think that Men have less social power than Women? Why?
Do you think Men have less economic power than Women? Why?
Is your goal the equality of opportunity for men and women, or the equality of treatment for men and women?
Is there such a thing as Male Privilege?
Is there such a thing as Female Privilege? Can you give me an example?
Which is the more important statistic when it comes to making life better for Americans, that Men make up 75% of murder victims, or that Men make up 90% of murderers? Why?
How do you define Rape Culture?
Does a college or clinic have to deny resources or support for women to be able to provide resources or support for men?
How does (or can) Men's Rights benefit women?
What is the best way to combat male loneliness?
How do you define "a creep?"

Thanks, looking forward to some (hopefully) interesting, civil discussion. Honestly not trolling for a fight, just interested in better articulated and more nuanced responses to these controversial topics than the caricatures of misogyny that I see in the media.

Peter_Principle_ · 2014-05-28T00:43:58+00:00

Involuntary celibacy

Legalizing/decriminalizing prostitution is one possibility for that. OTOH, I sometimes wonder if that's a good solution. Legalization will make it less risky, certainly, but if it also drives up the price...

For men who are gay or bi, destigmatizing homosexual sex is definitely a path to improving conditions.

spazdor · 2014-05-28T02:48:29+00:00

I really like this post, and except for a couple of serious misunderstandings which I'm gonna try to address nicely, I want to commend the good intentions and good ideas I see here. Full disclosure: I'm a dude and I identify myself in daily life as a feminist. If you have to downvote me at this point I promise I'll understand.

First is the attribution that feminists assume maleness is inherently bad. I know it's going to be a hard sell trying to convince mensrights that feminists don't think this, but I think that whatever-it-is that makes you feel like feminists think this will make more sense if you try and decouple sex from gender. I see absolutely nothing wrong with any physical sex, be it male, female, intersex or neuter, just as I see nothing wrong with the body configuration or biochemical makeup which makes anyone who they are.

Along the gender axis, I see plenty wrong with masculinity, that is to say, the stuff about men which is determined not by our genes but by how society chooses to raise us in one way or another because of our genes. I think boys are taught a lot of stuff which isn't true, stuff about what it means to be a man and that's absolutely a men's issue which I'm so, so pleased to see is taking center stage in a lot of this discussion.

The other IMO misunderstanding from the OP which I think really needs unpacking is:

Creep shaming and virgin shaming

I find it really distressing that two such radically different things could be so casually connected with an 'and'. Virgin shaming is a monstrous injustice which is visited upon boys by all of society, which I think twists many of us in terrible ways, which can take us years or decades to overcome, and some of us never do. It's a critical, gamechanging plank in that 'masculinity' framework which I criticise above. The connection between male adequacy and sexual activity in our culture is, in my eyes, one of the biggest drivers behind sexual violence.

Creep shaming is something I can sympathize with more, because it focuses on behaviours rather than innocent states of being, and because 'being creepy' is a real thing which I have observed in the world, and it is characterized by people taking inappropriate liberties or placing demands on people who owe them no such consideration - it is a kind of social boundary-blindness which I think ought to be discouraged by social stigma just as other kinds of rudeness are.

What I think we need in addition to that stigma though, is some resources, compassion and help for people who have poor boundary sense. But the people providing that help can't be the girls they're macking awkwardly on, it has to come from the rest of us, their peers. We need to do a better job of teaching our brothers and sons how to reconcile being flirty with being respectful.

2014-05-28T07:08:45+00:00

I think this whole tragedy highlights our failures more than anything.

It's evident we're letting young men down.
We haven't impacted the dialog on gender enough.
We are still "fringe" rather than a reputable alternetive to the feminist narrative.
Who and what we are isn't widely accepted or known. It too easy for feminists and the media to conflate us with other groups, or outright lie about us.
We've seriously under-estimated the hatred and invective the establishment harbours toward men and men's rights.
We haven't brought key health issues that affect men into the national dialog.
We haven't changed the opinion of others in regard to men being human.
The empathy gap seems wider than other.

under_score16 · 2014-05-28T00:35:18+00:00

Rodger himself doesn't have much acute relevance to any of the above points except for mental illness imo. Yes he is strongly associated with the other problems but even if he didn't have them he would still be mentally ill - maybe things wouldn't have gotten as bad as they did but I'd wager a guy with his type of mind if left untreated would go on to cause serious problems in the lives of those close to him.

But those other points are major problems for some people though. To address the loneliness, "Incel", creep/virgin shaming and depression. Lots of people throughout history have probably had some of these problems - but from a young age we're not presented with the idea that you can be a loner you're whole life and that would be okay. No kid is told that they might never be in love with anyone. No teenager is told that. No young adult is even told that. They're told that someday they will find someone. And often times they do, but sometimes they don't. To say that this would be a major let down would be an understatement. This isn't one of those "first world problems". It takes an unusual person to really be okay with not ever experiencing the basic human need to be loved. I don't have a solution to the problem, but this is how I see it.

superfancypants · 2014-05-28T02:08:26+00:00

When talking about any form of mental illness, we could mainstream it and take away the stigma associated with it. Then people could get help if they need it, without the stigma, and move forward.

DeamonKnight · 2014-05-28T03:18:12+00:00

Meditation. (Reflective, stillness, and creative.) Singing. proper sleep, or sometimes just a nap (no joke, if you are in a shit mood and really angry with the world, if you can, take a nap) Go out into nature if you can. maintain a balanced diet and make sure you are not deficient in some things.

The sense of Self-efficacy (the feeling that one has control over the situation) is very very important to human mental and emotional health. If the human does not feel they have control they will try to attain it. If they cannot attain it physically, then they will either cope by letting it go, or develop anxiety of sorts. There will always be assholes. You cannot help that but what you can do is change your reaction to them. The power is your mind and you can choose to think whatever you want.

Gawrsh · 2014-05-28T05:34:07+00:00

Here's one solution.

Look to the person on your left, now look to the one on your right. Now look in the mirror. All three of you are assholes.

I'm an asshole, you're an asshole. We're all assholes: sometimes assholes in waiting, but still assholes.

And just when you think you're not an asshole and never were, that's when you could be the biggest asshole of all.

http://i.imgur.com/nnt5UZx.png

This applies to everyone reading this. If you're feeling smug because it's those others who are assholes but not ever your own enlightened self, you've just gone full asshole.

Edit: Although this post was made with humorous intent, the idea still applies. Try to be empathetic and people (men in this case) will be a lot happier.

ExpendableOne · 2014-05-28T13:35:21+00:00

Teach people to treat all men like people, and promote the idea that they still have romantic/sexual value even if they are shy, inexperienced or 'beta'. Teach women that it's okay for men to be shy or inexperienced, that not only should they not punish men for being new at something(especially when they are so eager to learn) but that shyness and inexperienced are temporary traits, not permanent ones. Teach women to view men as romantic/sexual equals, and promote a healthier and more balanced approach to heterosexual relationship. Form programs to help boys/men with their emotional/sexual health, and recognize that the basic human need to be loved/accepted is universal to men as well. Put an end to misandry, and misandric movements that would label boys/men entitled for being human, creeps for being different or threats for being born male. Recognize that these social gender issues do exist and that feeding boys/men drugs to desensitize them to those issues isn't really a good or viable long-term solution.

Lucifersmanslave · 2014-05-27T23:54:03+00:00

I don't think anything could have helped elliot. Usually, most incels and low dating value people find community among their peers. Elliot hated his peers and had a huge ego to go along with his inflated expectations and extreme jealousy.

Balegrim · 2014-05-28T06:03:49+00:00

-Loneliness

Not sure exactly how we can tell if a man is lonely or not. Some go through lengths to hide it. But I'd say as men trying to help men we should try to step outside our comfort zone, and make new acquaintances on respectful and friendly terms. In this endeavor, we should strive to exercise good etiquette and make people comfortable with us.

-Mental illness

Professional help is probably needed outside of personal support. If you know people who are mentally unwell, encourage them to talk to loved ones about it, spread awareness, and seek professional aid.

-Alienation from society

If we identify alienated males, they may be alienated for a reason. We should try to constructively help them improve on qualities that caused their alienation. Compassion needed. The only way to make someone unalienated is to get to know them and incorporate them as part of the group again. This is something that should be done with care.

-Virgin shaming

Don't do it. Mocking someone for never having engaged in sexual intercourse is as silly as mocking someone for the fact they have. As males, we should endeavor to ensure that the most important perceptions people can have about us is not found in our private bedroom experiences. We are so much more than these.

-Creep shaming

Constructively help men who exhibit tendencies of obsession and desperation understand why they do not need to be desperate. This is no simple endeavor. But we should try to help men who obsess over other individuals understand there are many more components to their life that rest within their control.

-Depression

This is sometimes chemical, and depending on the severity, will require professional help. The best we can do is be compassionate and help people find the help we can reliably identify they need, or encourage them to be open with their loved ones about these problems.

-Demonisation

Don't participate in the act of demonizing men. The goal is not to paint a villain. But we should be open to valid criticism and not dismissive of our own faults. There is a fine line to be respected here.

MRSPArchiver · 2014-05-27T22:44:29+00:00

Post text automatically copied here. (Why?) (Report a problem.)

RaptorSixFour · 2014-05-27T23:28:07+00:00

As far as loneliness, most men I know are only friends with other men because they have a shared interest. So, find something you like and go to gathering for said thing.

plasmatorture · 2014-05-28T01:21:28+00:00

I think, among other school reforms, we need to focus on mental health. They're already cutting way back on physical education which is bad enough, but both that and mental/social education should be a part of the curriculum.

Topics like sex, intimacy, friendship, bullying, ostracization, etc.. I have no idea how they would run but something like that or at least weekly counseling sessions or something that encourage people that talking about their feelings is okay and that it's okay to have negative emotions if you deal with them in a healthy way. We have to remove the stigma around seeking mental health help, especially for men. Perhaps having a point system where seeing the counselor for 30 min a week could unlock prizes or something. I know that would've been enough for me as a young teen - go talk to someone for a bit every week and by the end of the year I can get a Playstation??? awesome!!! - and I'm 100% sure by the end of the year I'd have been wanting to go because the counseling itself was good.

Of course, that requires the budget for it, the time in one's school life for it, and quality enough counselors for it to actually be practical. But we can dream, right? I think a massive restructuring of our education system and its funding is dire to our society's success.

I also think it'd be great if there were more sexual surrogates and that method of therapy was more widespread and accepted. Legalizing prostitution is one thing which could also be explored, but I don't think that's the solution to most alienated, depressed, and lonely men's issues. To work with someone on issues like intimacy and dating in such a close and physical way has got to be the best way to do so as far as I can tell. At the lower points of my life, I fervently wished that such a therapist existed in my area and would have sought them out in a heartbeat. Instead, I struggled through on my own, faced rejection after rejection, until I finally found someone who was a terrible fit for me. I finally had sex but what little bit of a relationship there was was incredibly unhealthy and manipulative on her end. If a person doesn't experience good, safe, healthy intimacy I think it can be incredibly damaging. My understanding is that's what sexual surrogacy offers.

DesignRed · 2014-05-28T02:54:17+00:00

Honestly, I think just having friends to talk to as men would help other men a lot. I started working out with a couple of guys I met at the gym and we talk about our lives and work and goals and push each other to work out and that sort of constructive positive behavior is quite helpful for men, since as boys that is how we learned to connect and somehow lost it when we started to chase paper/women. I would also suggest possibly volunteering at an animal shelter/ habitat for humanity and find ways to create a group of guys, a support system who you can talk to, outside of your normal friends, so that you can open up without worrying about your family/friends hearing about it and getting concerned or w/e.

jesterace · 2014-05-28T02:55:31+00:00

I don't expect women to stop rejecting men, or shaming them or demonizing them. Men don't have to participate in that process. The solution to most of these problems is convincing men to stop throwing each other under the bus, especially for reasons as silly as competing for female attention.

From personal experience, i know this is possible at the small scale. I'm talking about a handful of close friends. It even seems possible with small online communities of a few hundred or thousand. Beyond that i don't think it's possible.

As far as mental illness/depression goes, something as trivial as acknowledging someone's pain and suffering can go a long way. Sadly, i don't think people have enough compassion to do that. At least not for men.

Gawrsh · 2014-05-28T03:30:22+00:00

Loneliness (Yes)
Mental illness (Yes)
Alienation from society (Yes)
Depression (Very much yes)
Demonisation (Sure. Also 'Z' not 'S' ;) )

These are the one's I'd like to see focused on.

Samurai007_ · 2014-05-28T08:49:49+00:00

More friendship, more human interaction is what's needed. A chance to socialize with other guys and not be made fun of or put down as the butt of jokes. Hang out, play some games, whatever.

FelixFB · 2014-05-29T07:02:03+00:00

books, books compliment solitude.

2014-05-30T03:22:07+00:00

We need to drop Alpha/Beta. It is the male version of slut shaming, except we are shaming those who don't have sex.

TheRealMouseRat · 2014-05-30T08:33:50+00:00

We should show people approaching the MRMovement that what we want is more freedom for women. (which would lead to solving many of our problems as well.) People would see that we are not indeed misogynistic, and not only focusing on men's problems either; we want gender equality.

I have no tips for how to beat strawman and kafka-trapping methods employed against the MRM, other than to point out that it is indeed strawman arguments and logical fallacies.

Senray · 2014-05-28T03:15:35+00:00

Calling involuntary celibacy an issue like this is not helpful. Sex is not a physical need, nor an entitlement, and it's not a problem for our entire gender because some people want to have it and aren't. (I want a GTX 780, I'm not an involuntary GTX780 not haver)

Mental illness is an economic issue mostly. The parity requirement passed in the ACA will help, but we need more inexpensive, confidential options. Getting rid of the stigma(i.e. realizing that mentally ill people are not violent or insane most of the time) is also extremely important, but the fact that we're discussing it now worsens that stigma.

Loneliness also isn't much of a gender issue. It's a definite problem for many people of both genders, but I can't imagine how to solve it.

The shaming issue could probably addressed by no longer treating sex as transformative, i.e. Having not had sex does not make one less of, or any different of a person than having not flown an airplane, or run a marathon.

Demonization, etc, are symptoms of the inability of most people to understand risk and probability. If something happens rarely, but it's a big deal when it does, it will be looked and treated as a significant hazard. Getting good statistics on violence, and comparing them to other hazards would help here

DianaDewAsmr · 2014-05-28T08:02:42+00:00

I think that help for men should be structured for them. Women can ask for help, we are wired and we have the privilege of externalizing our feelings without being blamed or demonized for it.

Like AlexReynard said maybe men need a different approach to it so they don't see it as something "weak" but they can still let their feelings out.

What about camps where men are made to endure physical tests - not too hard of course, like military training but not as tough, but something that will make the man realize his internal strength. I dunno, I am a woman and I wouldn't wanna say stupid things but thinking of my male friends they'd never go in places where their feelings are pampered and taken care of, but if you promise sports and physical tests they'll take it up.

Maybe there is a way to work on this and I think we should only focus on how men live these issues, not taking women's methods, applying them to men and blaming men if this doesn't work.

darkaqua · 2014-05-28T21:30:03+00:00

Men, especially, need good mentors. This is very lacking in today's society for the main reason that true mentors have been supplanted by "professionals", who coach men in how to be, well, less masculine, basically. I'm sure that had the kid in question seen a professional counsellor about his issues with being a virgin, he'd have been told to be nicer, and then medicated.

Men need to have healthy outlets for their drives. Men, and boys, should be out doing stuff with other males. Today's indoor lifestyle is unhealthy and frustrating, filled with empty pseudo-victories, like gaming. Males need healthy physical activity with other males. This has been the way that men have operated since there were men.

Men need to eat better. All the crap young people eat today plays absolute havoc with hormones and other body chemistry. For one example, sugar ingestion significantly lowers testosterone for a short period of time. Of course, when you eat it all the time, those short periods start to mesh together. What happens with low T? Rage and a feeling of helplessness.

Men need to relax. All the work hard, play hard ethic that young people are so enamoured by comes back to haunt them with an inability to relax. But relaxation is super important. Everything in life requires balance and being on the go all the time depletes essential neurochemicals, leading to higher levels of stress.

Men need a purpose. Interpret that as you will. But going from school to college to work, without anything deeper than pursuit of money and sex leads to a hollow feeling eventually.

That'll do for starters.

Nomenimion · 2014-05-27T22:53:16+00:00

Respect their RIGHTS, including due process and free speech. Stop enabling false accusers.

Tzer-O · 2014-05-27T23:39:01+00:00

A different way to look at masculinity. NSFW Language

Piroko · 2014-05-27T23:24:14+00:00

One word.

MockingDead · 2014-05-28T05:24:34+00:00

Short: Bring back a society where men are rewarded for masculine traits of industry, aggressiveness, and risk taking. Give men a reward for doing, acting and being.

Loneliness, Mental Illness, Alienation, Depression

Bring back men only clubs - places where men can find a place without worrying what women think. Places where men can have a drink and bitch and say what they think and have it be acknowledged.

Stop saying men are useless, men are rapists, and asking where all the good men are. They are all around you.

Virgin shaming

Aside from having all men score, we need to make men able to take the risks needed to get a woman. Bring back traditional monogamy, letting the male 4s get female 4s again.

Creep Shaming

Teach women how to accept a compliment or an overture without flipping their shit or mocking the man involved. Teach men how to socialize. Bringing back social rules (parlors, polite talk, courtship rites) so that the boundary between friend and lover are clear and distinct.

Demonization

Stop demonizing men? Men are not vile curs and rakes.

I don't think any of this is possible, honestly. We've gone too far, and Elliot is the not the first sex-alienated omega to go on shooting, but he is not the last.

Men need to MGTOW. All of us, en masse. I don't think it's possible for modern man and modern feminism to meet in the middle. Men need to just disappear, wait for the world to crumble, and rebuild it.

aegorrivers · 2014-05-28T14:46:44+00:00

Here's the thing: I feel like we spend a lot of time discussing these issues and condemning society for these problems but really do nothing to support each other. Iin reality, that's what a lot of us need: a support network. I feel alone and left out almost every day. Even in my "friend" circles I feel like an outsider, but nothing I do seems to change that. I'm always the one running after them until they need me to do a favor for them, but I'm never invited to anything. I understand we won't ever be able to set up an online system that could create friendships and support systems that approximate the ones that other people have in real life, and obviously setting up a system isn't going to get us girlfriends. It's still important to have someone to turn to though. I think we should focus on making people feel welcome and happy. A lot of people say that there are people willing to listen to us. Where are those people? I'm not going to spend what little money I have on a therapist who really doesn't care about my problems, especially since I'm fairly high functioning and I don't even need a therapist. I need real friends. That's it. Even medically it's been shown that behavior and drug therapies aren't what solves the problems; rather, it's the warm interactions that the patients have with another human being that solves the problem. That's what we need. Human interactions.

iethatis · 2014-05-28T14:50:38+00:00

I believe there is a subtle atmosphere of misandry that pervades the entire cultural landscape and colors every interaction that we have. It's something that is felt by all men, even if they don't notice it.

If our culture was less hostile to men, there would be fewer people who feel so alienated and desperate.

TheThinMan34 · 2014-05-28T14:51:37+00:00

High grooming standards (no unruly beards) and wearing bitchin' suits should be the new in thing like decades of old. You can never go wrong with either of those things. And what man wouldn't feel like a badass, or look like a badass while wearing one?

IcarusBurning · 2014-05-28T20:13:08+00:00

There will be no easy answers to this. Solving this problem seems to me no easier than accomplishing all the current goals of the MRM.

Honestly I think if a person is constantly told by friends, TV, movies etc. over and over again that everything they do in their life is motivated by the desire to have sex, then they will start to believe it. If we want to truly tackle these problems, then we would have to destroy the idea of sex as a status symbol for men.

blooblahguy · 2014-05-28T21:20:53+00:00

I believe that most of these issues can be rolled up into how society views "weak" Men. Individually item in your list can be worked on, but I think they are branches of the core problem men face culturally.

I'm not sure on a solution but I think, especially in light on Elliot Rodger, mental health needs to be addressed as an egalitarian issue. Stress, disposability, shaming, and the rejection of the mentally ill prove to exacerbate these issues. It's not surprising that when we hear about these mass murders, the perpetrators have deep rooted issues in at least one of them. So my vote is a campaign outlining the mental health struggles men often face every day, there is a reason men commit suicide so much more often than women.

Kelmian · 2014-05-28T21:42:10+00:00

[permanently deleted]

mean0dean0 · 2014-05-29T18:05:21+00:00

Loneliness

Male group activities--I'm a member of several gaming groups and I could not imagine my mental state without hanging out with my male friends on a regular basis. Gaming used to be an in-the-closet shamed activity, but it is becoming more accepted in the mainstream as an alternative to "poker nights" or drunken "guys' night out" that perpetuate more negative stereotypes or attract certain types of guys who are more invested in perpetuated negative stereotypes about guys (heavy drinking, hookup culture, macho attitudes, emotionlessness--the "poker face", etc.).

Mental illness

Counseling. Counseling, counseling, counseling. While there need to be more institutional elements promoting counseling for troubled youths especially, but also troubled men of all ages, the best advice for mental illness is NOT TO BE SILENT ABOUT IT. Get talking, even if it's with a counselor you'll only see once a month. You probably spend more on gas in a month than you would on a twice-monthly counseling appointment, and just retraining yourself to TALK about your problems to others rather than "suck it up" is a life skill everyone needs to learn.

Alienation from society

Places like here on /mensrights are good, but groups like Men's Sheds in Australia are better. Getting more involved in society is essential, so consider joining a volunteer group feeding the homeless (primarily men!) or mentoring troubled teens (gang violence primarily affects urban male teens!) would go a long way towards increasing your sense of attachment to your community and society in general.

Virgin shaming

Virgin shaming is not the result of sex shaming--it is the DIRECT result of ADVERTISING. Congratulations--you have been led to believe that you need to be a stud in bed so that you will watch more porn, buy more expensive products, and make more money at shitty jobs to afford the lifestyle that will supposedly change your terrible position in life. Meanwhile, BACK ON PLANET EARTH, sex should absolutely be the LAST thing on your mind; instead, you should be following your ambitions, filling up your life with experiences, and enjoying your free time with people who don't SHAME YOU for being who you are. Who cares if sex happens (or doesn't) if you're too busy enjoying your life to care? Fill your life with what matters to you and if it feels right, sex will follow from those people you fill your life up with.

Creep shaming

Much like virgin shaming, creep shaming comes from societal pressures forced on you by people whom you probably can't stand anyway--so why are you hanging around them again? In just the same manner that you should fill your life up with people who make you feel good, you should also empty your life out of people who make you feel bad. Relatively few people are ACTUAL creeps, stalkers, sexual abusers and harassers; but people who try to make you feel like a terrible person are harassing you, and therefore are creeps. So like all rational people, you should kick them to the curb and move on with your life! Can we solve all of society's problems with maleness? No--but we can start the healing process at home by refusing to allow others to define us and refusing to live our lives based on the approval of creeps.

Depression

Counseling, counseling, counseling.

Demonisation

Kick abusers and harassers to the curb. If people will treat you like shit, refuse to associate with them. Don't yell or scream or make them RIGHT in their bad estimation of your worth; simply refuse them the privilege of your time and energy. Leave the conversation, leave the room, leave the group, leave the relationship, leave the company. Your mental health and sense of self-esteem is not worth a higher paycheck or some more bad sex. If you don't respect yourself enough to choose to surround yourself with people who respect you, why should you expect anything more than demonization and disrespect?

MockingDead · 2014-05-29T22:37:22+00:00

I have had to listen to a whole fucking week of women telling me how horrible it is to be a woman because men are evil. I'm fucking sick of it. Maybe we could, just once, tell men they are worthwhile.

kickinwayne45 · 2014-05-29T22:42:32+00:00

Idk about society but here's what you do in your sphere of influence:

Hang out with other men and talk about important stuff.

Get a beer, get coffee, get breakfast with your neighbor, your brother, your friend, and don't talk about sports, or cars, or work; talk about your relationships, your fears, your hopes, your struggles with porn, women, MRA, or whatever else only another man will get.

The alternative to the macho facade is not to be vulnerable and crying to the world. Be strong, be a provider, a leader, a protector, whatever. But find other men who you can trust to open up to and be vulnerable with on a regular basis and you will find yourself growing, healing, and you'll be able to work through all of these struggles society doesn't care about.

If we all do that within our sphere of influence, thats a big effect.

Chad_Nine · 2014-05-30T05:51:43+00:00

Reduce the incidence of single motherhood by providing incentives for parents with children to stick together.

A public awareness campaign about the transition to adulthood for young men, including a specific focus on realistic expectations out of women and relationships. (No, you are not likely to get a supermodel girlfriend, and why would you want one for a relationship based only on her looks?) And that men should not base their self-worth on the approval of women.

Nomenimion · 2014-05-28T18:22:22+00:00

Any hint of pity for this murderous traitor is a terrible mistake.

propranaror · 2014-05-29T23:01:58+00:00

Value men. Honor men. Respect men. All of them.

Make it a law IMO. It can be done. Kind of the same way if a white person says the n-word. The same consequences for someone who derides another's manhood; maybe they take issue with his ideas, or his behavior, or his appearance, but they NEVER question his manhood. By law.

NerdseyJersey · 2014-05-27T23:50:21+00:00

Why can't it be friendly to all genders?

KCIO3 · 2014-05-28T04:35:38+00:00

Honestly curious... Do any of you actually believe that what Mr. Rodger did was justified? I personally pity him, not because he wasn't 'getting any', but because he obviously had mental problems that were not dealt with correctly. And that's the real shame: he could have received the help he needed, and this tragedy could have been avoided. He might not have wanted it, though, and that's what brings me to the subject of society. Men are expected to be masculine, meaning they must be strong, capable leaders who don't show emotion. Women are expected to be feminine; so submissive and gentle. But I think that the terms masculine and feminine are completely outdated. Independent, successful, and headstrong women are attractive to me, though those traits are not considered 'feminine'. And I would never date a guy who didn't show emotion or weaknesses; those are the types of guys who, though they might not mean to, come off as kinda scary, distant or detached (I am in no way saying that men who act like that are bad or unfit for relationships; I'm simply stating that I would feel less comfortable around someone like that, whether they be male, female or any gender.)

The problems you listed above aren't exclusive to males, I hope you realize (except for maybe creep shaming, which has a female equivalent.) Therefore, new, potential treatments can't be only male-friendly. As cliché as this sounds, I think people should really just get rid of cultural gender boundaries, since they're the real root of all aforementioned problems.

As to the comment that feminists falsely assume that maleness is inherently bad, that's not true. If a women claims to be a feminist and yet says that, then she really isn't a feminist. Feminism is the search for EQUAL RIGHTS for women; consequently, that means that men would have EXACTLY THE SAME RIGHTS AS WOMEN, and vice versa, which is something that seems to be forgotten (FEMINISM IS NOT EVIL, JUST AS MEN'S RIGHTS GROUPS ARE NOT EVIL.)

Basically, just don't be dicks to people. That isn't an immediate solution. There isn't really an immediate solution. Aggressive comments and actions only escalate into much worse, so there's no point in those. As for depression and any other mental illnesses, you really should see a professional. If it makes you uncomfortable to be that vulnerable, remember that it can remain completely secret, with doctor-patient confidentiality. You will not be the first male patient your therapist or psychologist has seen, and by going to appointments, you are destroying the terrible idea that men can't show emotional weaknesses.

Kelmian · 2014-05-28T20:04:38+00:00

I want little to do with humanity. There is very little you can do about this.

drcarp2 · 2014-05-28T14:16:41+00:00

Premature ejaculation
Delayed ejaculation
Weak erections

Fercockt · 2014-05-27T22:56:00+00:00

We are so terribly afraid. Of girls, I'm going to say it. They can killus with a glance or a word. I'm sorry. And scared to say it.

totorox · 2014-05-29T14:42:07+00:00

We can take advantage of this by proposing positive, male-friendly solutions to such problems.

You're (the MRM) under heavy lobbying warfare and that's what you're proposing?

You're getting close to being officially labeled a hate group, there's even talk about branding you a terrorist group and that's your reaction ?

asupify · 2014-05-29T15:17:51+00:00

Fundraising or donation of supplies to your local Men's Shed. Men's Sheds are a extremely successful initiative to create gathering/work shop space for men, especially in rural communities. The goal is to provide support, social interaction, community engagement, men's health education and teach new skills. As well as combat isolation, depression, suicide rates and loneliness in men due to retrenchment, mental illness, living in remote locations, divorce and death of spouse.

It's also a great way to reach men who would not usually access primary health care with targeted men's health programs. The Men's Shed initiative started in Australia and due to it's success are now going global.

I've been donating supplies and helping with health programs at my local men's shed for a couple of years now. It's a terrific NGO.

avantvernacular · 2014-05-29T17:54:33+00:00

I don't know what we can do as a society, but as individuals we can all do a little something: Empathy, especially for the weak, the ugly, the weird, the creepy. All the people we ignore or suppress or mock for not being the versions of humanity society at large wants to exist. It we can just each treat one other person with kindness and openness and compassion that we otherwise would have ignored, maybe it just might have a shot to make a difference.

Perhaps it's just idealistic wishful thinking, but I suspect that if Elliot had just one person he could talk to about his frustrations and loneliness, it might have had a shot of preventing this from happening, and if we can all be that one person for someone else who doesn't have any, maybe, just maybe we could prevent the next Elliot Rodgers from ever happening.

It's a long shot, but perhaps it's a shot worth taking.

wolverstreets · 2014-05-28T00:27:49+00:00

This is why God invented prostitutes. Fuck sake, find an Asian massage parlor. Go to the gym. Body build. You'll get laid eventually.

Nomenimion · 2014-05-29T03:00:48+00:00

Men don't need to be fixed.

Balegrim · 2014-05-28T04:48:41+00:00

Treat women as people and peers.
Do not assume you are smarter than they are, or otherwise try to manipulate them.
Focus on having sincere discourse with women.
Understand sex is a mutual and consensual experience between adults, it is neither a commodity or guarantee.
Strive to make women feel safe and free from pressure in your company. Pressure for sex is one of the things they feel all the time from their large volume of male acquaintances.
Don't condemn female promiscuity. Many people experiment, especially young people. Men LOVE to experiment. I, as a man, love(d) to experiment with women and a variety of them. They are entitled to the same explorations and pursuits without fear of judgement or violence. Just like I was.
Do not be afraid to be polite, clever, and flirty. Or ask if a woman is physically interested.
Handle rejection well. If a woman is not interested, don't try to force the issue anymore than you would someone ordering a different beverage than you at the restaurant. It's a matter-of-fact matter. Meet other women. They will have different tastes. Respect that.
Don't let getting laid be the central component of your existence and validation of your identity. Embrace people in a wider spectrum and make them comfortable, and the physical possibilities will present themselves.
You don't have to be gorgeous to get laid. But an ambitious, non-judgemental, playful man with respect for boundaries will get play sooner or later. And in the spirit of these things, getting play isn't his chief motive in life.
Imagine the character that actually fits these precedents, develop a working idea of what it philosophically means to be that guy. This is not an investment and reward system. Relationships are not to be measured in investment and reward (reward being sex).

Do these things, and the results will shock you.

typhonblue · 2014-05-27T23:27:34+00:00

OK, jealousy. because some guys get every girl. There's nobody left over for the ones who work 9 to 5. The girls don't care, they want perfection. Eb=very boy should ahve a girl.

Title	Time to get positive. What would help alienated men?
Author	nicemod
Upvotes	114
Comments	274
Date	May 27, 2014 10:44 PM UTC (12 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/26n9w6/time_to_get_positive_what_would_help_alienated_men/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/time-to-get-positive-what-would-help-alienated-men.1000150 https://theredarchive.com/post/1000150

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