Sometimes we need to remember that oppressive gender roles hurt everybody. (x-post from 2x)

I dont disagree with what its saying, and you are correct that in what it says. There is an underlying theme to it though, and that is with what I have an issue. There are many men who dont give a damn about the gender role of needing to be a leader, they dont want to be ever. I have a bigger problem with men who always insist on being the leader, even when it isnt their job or they are not qualified for the position. That is a military thing, and doesnt address my issue with the poster.

Actually I prefer a strong woman to a weak one, but being submissive is very different from being weak. They are not the same thing, you can be both, but one does not always need the other. Someone can be submissive without being a doormat, there is a distinction. My ex was a doormat that wanted to be taken care of and everything given to her, everything was a power struggle with her. My current wife is a very strong woman, independent, capable, and confident, it is much more attractive, yet people still try to put the bullshit gender stuff on her.

People tend to assume things about other people, they will see someone as weak when they arent just because they dont fit the gender role that is somehow in everyone's minds. This poster plays to that, and IMHO doesnt take the idea far enough, and only leaves relevance to men as the ones who want to be more like the female gender role. I am not one of those men, and I have other issues about the gender roles. Mainly those that say men who do take charge are more violent, or that we are so alpha we cant control ourselves, among others.

Im not sure I am making sense right now, the numbness from the dentist is wearing off. We dont disagree really, I just see things from a slightly different angle and I see some of the power struggle bullshit in there, rather than equality.

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[–]airboat 1 point2 points3 points 14 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

In the first three examples, the girl is clearly the superior person. She is strong, intelligent, and emotionally stable. The boy, on the other hand, is vulnerable, burdened, and emotionally shunned.

The fourth is a valid enough point.

The fifth tries to touch on the fact that girls are socially expected to enjoy things such as EZ-Bake ovens, but the fact is that nobody is going to get upset if a girl doesn't. On the flipside, a boy wanting to play with an EZ-Bake oven is absolutely bizarre by social standards and would undoubtedly earn harsh judgements.

The sixth one doesn't even really have a real issue for the boy. It's an issue for the girl because it's absolutely true that advertising doesn't really go after the self-worth of men, whereas woman are constantly bombarded by ways they need to improve themselves, but the contrast to that is supposed to be that the boy has to resist advertising affecting... his desires? It doesn't compare.

The seventh has the unfortunate connotation that the girl is the only one who is actually capable of improving the situation for both genders.

[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

She is strong, intelligent, and emotionally stable. The boy, on the other hand, is vulnerable, burdened, and emotionally shunned.

Yes because it is stereotyped that women are vulnerable, and emotionally unstable, while men are strong and emotionally stolid. I agree that it's not perfect, but I don't think anything negative was intended.

The fifth tries to touch on the fact that girls are socially expected to enjoy things such as EZ-Bake ovens, but the fact is that nobody is going to get upset if a girl doesn't. On the flipside, a boy wanting to play with an EZ-Bake oven is absolutely bizarre by social standards and would undoubtedly earn harsh judgements.

Well yes, but that's the reason they included that. It's just more acceptable for women to not be in their own roles, but what said was true.

The sixth one doesn't even really have a real issue for the boy. It's an issue for the girl because it's absolutely true that advertising doesn't really go after the self-worth of men, whereas woman are constantly bombarded by ways they need to improve themselves, but the contrast to that is supposed to be that the boy has to resist advertising affecting... his desires? It doesn't compare.

I think a better example would be that "There is a boy showing advertisers that he isn't a bumbling idiot" or something to that effect. Or "they he is a good father" or something. I don't know how to word it exactly, but something along those lines.

The seventh has the unfortunate connotation that the girl is the only one who is actually capable of improving the situation for both genders.

It does, but I think (and I am taking off of a comment I saw in TwoX about this exact thing) that it was more that "boys can accept help too, and girls can lead just like boys." However, reading it, it can be interpreted in other ways too. I don't know the real meaning behind it, but it can be taken something like "If you let women break free, that is how you break free." or something like that.

[–]anachronic 3 points4 points5 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

As someone that did not conform to gender roles growing up, I love it every time I see them weakening a bit more. Childhood was rough for me and it'd be nice if things got easier over time for kids who want to be different.

I tried to not let it bother me too much... my parents gave me a very STRONG grounding and sense of self... so I was/is a stubborn fuck that would rather put up with all the teasing and ostracism in order to be my own person & follow my own path rather than pretend to be someone else merely for acceptance.

I always learned my lessons the hard way, and honestly I think I'm a better / more well-rounded person because of it.

edit: I always feel like society is a few decades behind where I am... unfortunately it probably always will be... I just keep growing thicker skin and learning how to cope with living in a world where most people would be confused and really angry at how I chose to spend some of my free time. I've gotten exceptionally good at keeping my personal life separate from my professional life so that most people I work with have NO IDEA how weird I really am ;)

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The typical MRA response to an outsider is no different from the typical SRS response; it's either wrong or not good enough.

Your attitude will drive people away from your cause. I had to say the same thing to SRSers when they were overly critical of me just for being there and asking questions. If this person is a feminist and an MRA, then so be it; so am I.

And seriously, the monolithic nature you ascribe to feminism is very, very suspect. You should not be saying "Feminists do X" any more than feminists should be saying "MRA's do Y". The fact is they're all individuals and they do whatever they want to do, individually. What you've seen as the actions of the entire movement of feminists should not impose any ethical weight on any individual who didn't support them, but just so happened to carry the same label as those who did. I'm an American, but I shouldn't have to feel guilty for the overconsumption and warmongering of Americans in power. This person is a feminist, and they shouldn't have to feel guilty for the actions of feminist groups. I mean, honestly, how much power do you think pretidophyta has over the directions the NOW takes? And if it isn't enough to change those directions, then what is the purpose of your post?

It seems like a good 60% of this board is unable to understand the concept of a feminist who is also an MRA. I am one. We exist.

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Who's upset about the order of placement? I was answering your comment.

Myself, I don't like the poster because it portrays the MRM's complaints about male gender roles as limp reflections of feminism's facile complaints about female gender roles. Also, I see it as hypocritical; feminism hasn't done so much to abolish gender roles as it has to enforce new ones, about male aggression and female victimhood, about liberated women and enlightened, apologetic men.

These are the gender roles feminism has offered men: enlightened supplicant, chauvinist oppressor, or angry loser. Notice what they all have in common? They are all based on the man's relation to women. He can help the female cause, or he can oppose the female cause, or he can be bitter about his failure to appeal to women. Feminism never considers masculinity as it relates to men.

And then there's that last line. The way to male freedom...is by liberating women? Right, because that's been working so well.

Here's my counter-offer: the way to "liberate" women is by granting men freedom. Free the men of society from the burden of supporting the women of society, and the women will be truly independent. Abolish practices like child support, alimony, male-only "death professions," gender discrepancies in criminal sentencing--basically, stop offering women unilateral protection and support on the backs of men. That is the only way to help women attain independence. You wouldn't raise an independent child by paying their rent and bailing them out long into their 30's; why do we think offering similar protection and support will produce independent women?

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I'm not sure who you are angry at. I can only guess it's one of three options.

1) You're complaining about the obvious "troll comments" that have been downvoted into oblivion. Every subreddit has them, and equating a subreddit with its most downvoted comments isn't fair or accurate (as you very well know).

2) Perhaps you're complaining about fair comments that criticize many feminists for a strong anti-male agenda. It only takes some political awareness to see many influential feminists (not internet trolls, but well-known and powerful feminists) stereotype men as violent rapists and murderers who are trying to hurt women and protect a male-run society. They also lobby for legislation that hurts men (particularly when it comes to divorce law). If you honestly believe that every single political feminist is completely fair in their regard for gender roles, you haven't been paying attention. This isn't just MRA being competitive and playing teams, this is factual information.

3) Maybe you're mad at the people who raise fair points about the poster in question. Every point in that poster is an equally opposite reflection of one of the stereotypes about women. But while these stereotypes are hurtful, they aren't the ones that are hurting men most. The poster doesn't address the true issues that MRAs are fighting for — stereotypes (and resulting laws) that view men as violent and rape-mongering. That is why many feel that the sign misunderstands and trivializes some of the things that MRA is fighting for.

I really think you should reevaluate how you have reacted to this whole thing. I personally thought your reaction was immature and unreasoned, and if you take a brief tour of our community, you will easily see that we have a long relationship with supportive women fighting for gender equality and male rights. And they don't fly off the handle like you have.

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Nobody is ever fucking happy. There's always something to complain about.

Welcome to power group politics, where imbalance of power is the root of all evil. The first rule is complain and complain loudly.

Feminists have been successfully employing it for quite some time now, and with smashing success.

Men are just starting to cohere as a group, and to realize how important it is to protect their interests as men, against the continual onslaught of slurs agaibnst them (misandry). If this were not true, if men have been organizing well to protect their interests as men some time, then how do you think VAWA with its primary aggressor doctrine (and other outrages) got passed, and how do you think men accused of rape had their rights to due process stripped away to the point where the burden of proof is on the accused, and not on the accuser?

Power groups have 3 main subsets: peace makers, partisans, and rank-and-file. The partisans job is to make hits against rival groups by, among other things, making the other groups out to be composed of assholes. When the partisans from both sides are doing their jobs, they cancel each other out and the rank and file allow the peacemakers to negotiate in good faith with each other.

Now suppose group B's partisans aren't effective. The slurs from group A are hurled against B and they stick. Then the rank-and-file in A will stop listening to the peacemakers, and start promoting the partisans to higher levels of influence in A until B's partisans start being effective, at which point A's partisans start losing status in favor of the peacemakers.

I like the sentiments in the pic you posted. They look like a feminist peacemaker wrote them. I think a few years ago, before the MRM's partisans really got going, a poster like that would have received a cold reaction in most feminist spaces. Now that the MRM partisans are much better established and effective, I think sentiments like that are starting to gain traction in feminist spaces.

That said, I have larger ambitions as an MRA than the particular list of issues raised by that poster being addressed. For example, I want VAWA to be rendered gender neutral. I want due process for the criminally accused. As welcome as the sentiments in that poster are, they come nowhere near recognizing my larger issues. But they are a start.

As those things are achieved, my level of bitching will go down. Obviously, that's a way off. At the same time, whilst bitching, however, I do give feminists credit when they make genuine efforts to recognize the legitimacy of men's issues.

I think the bitching you are seeing in this thread can be understood in terms of the principles of power group politics that I just outlined. You have no right to expect an absence of bitching here. You do have a right to see some positive reactions, however, returning the good faith of the author of the poster. And I think you have.

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The principles of equality which are founded on feminism are not, in any way shape or form, egalitarian. It is incredibly insulting, ignorant and even destructive for you to perpetuate such a blatantly disingenuous, and false, ideological notion. Let's say for example that I have one apple, you have one orange and someone comes in and says "well, apples suck, so I want two apples, or an apple and an orange, for every orange you get". Is that equality? No. Equality under feminist terms is not equality at all. To call it egalitarianism does nothing but belittle the meaning of word, reinforces this unwarranted monopoly from feminists and hurts its cause.

The picture you posted here does not represent an egalitarian mindset, it presents a feminist bias on the general topic of equality. Feminism has had decades to work on equality, on the male side of thing as well as women's, but they chose to ignore those issues and focus exclusively on the female and the feminine. There's a reason half those things are considered taboo today and the other isn't.

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Sorry I'm not aware of what NAFALT is.. I agree that Feminists are egalitarians, but not all egalitarians are feminists. The two terms are not synonymous. I also agree that MRM does have a hatred for feminism, and there is a strawman fallacy. However, when you see the bullshit some feminists leaders come up with, the very people who have actual power to change things, the feminist politicians, the ones that are meant to represent the entire movement... you can't blame them.

When they are pushing for laws that actively harm men, that's a problem. It could be argued that these people are radicals, that would be correct, but the scary thing is that they actually have the power to do something. Their actions reflect on the entire movement of feminism in a bad way, sure not every feminist agrees with them but it's hard to see that when these radicals scream the loudest.

[–]Unconfidence -1 points0 points1 point 14 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

NAFALT - Not All Feminists Are Like This

Basically people call NAFALT anytime a feminist tries to explain that they doesn't espouse radical feminist views. It's meant to discredit arguments which try to distract from the main feminist issues, but it succeeds at boxing people into a straw man created by those who use the term to discredit people.

I find it funny that when people say feminists are egalitarians, people call NAFALT. Because they're not even saying that, they're saying that moreover, most feminists are egalitarians. This just happens to be the very same message the MRM is trying to send about men being rapists and abusers. But they get the same treatment by radfems, and dish out the same treatment in return, like that's ever going to solve anything.

And yeah, I can blame them for not treating people individually. I mean, it's pretty presumptuous for me to hear someone espouse the Republican Party and to immediately assume that they denounce gay marriage, much less to discredit their denial of such by insinuating that it's a fringe view of the Republican Party. I mean, the fact is that people just want to fight with each other. I was in Thailand and met a British man with the same problem; he would not stop attacking me for being American, because Americans use a lot of the world's oil. It didn't matter that I didn't even own a car at the time and bicycled everywhere, or that I politically support a total moratorium on oil drilling and imports, it just mattered that I donned a label which he saw as a target. We do the same thing to feminists here, and nobody seems to see how intellectually dishonest it is.

Yeah, some feminists push laws that hurt men. Some do so because they don't even know that the laws hurt men, and if they are explained the predicament, change their tune. I know this, because this is the bulk of feminists I've met. If I explain MRM issues to them, they immediately join the cause and start advocating.

I mean, imagine if an entire group started labeling you as the enemy because of misconceptions spawned of the actions of the worst but most vocal members of your group. Oh wait that already happens to us and we just do the same thing right back.

[–]ExpendableOne 0 points1 point2 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Not a single feminist or female study major I have ever met, in my entire life, were anything close to an egalitarian. If anything they were, for the most part, female chauvinists, entitled, bigots and were just as happy to defend and abuse double-standards as long as it benefits them or hurts men(personally, financially or professionally); often even using some very bad information to justify a lot of hatred, violence and abuse(verbal, psychological, emotional and physical). In fact, the most egalitarian women I have ever met in my life have all nearly unanimously been unaffiliated or anti-feminist. The history of feminism, and the history of feminists, do not in any way coincide with your statement. You are either oblivious to the obvious harm that feminism causes or the sexism it is founded on or choose to ignore it(if not simply for sexist reasons of your own such as female solidarity or male subservience).

[–]shady8x 4 points5 points6 points 14 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Uhhh, out of the last 100 links on the r/mensrights front page, yours has the most upvotes, by far. Seems like the community is pretty happy about this post, overall.

Either you are upset that people don't completely agree with the linked image because it represents male issues that are the least horrible ones effecting men(though still things that need to be worked on) which makes it obvious that the person writing this does not know that much about male issues.

Or you were looking for something to get mad at and after seeing the (heavily downvoted) troll posts decided that you were right all along...

or maybe even hoping that this would get downvoted so that you would have proof that we don't support it(personally I agree with most of what it said), and are now trying to elicit downvotes with your insults.

Either way, this was a rather childish response to what was shaping out to be a thoughtful conversation, though after you made this post, people started taking offense to your post and many started posting things that are more confrontational than they would have otherwise.

Anyway, thank for your post, but please try not to post comments until you learn to converse in a more civil manner.

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I'll always stick up for males and strive to be a true egalitarian

Fuck most of you.

Yeah. Totally Convinced.

Every single fucking thing turns into an anti-feminist circlejerk.

How can you claim to be about equality and still not recognize the harm feminism causes in society? Posting an old picture present one small aspect of the issue, and saying "see yall's we should all work together" without ever properly addressing that issue(and every other issue on the matter) isn't really being an egalitarian or sticking up for men; nor was it even being that helpful to begin with. If anything, you confining your views of these issues to a feminist perspective and advocating them as such probably causes more harm than good. Either way, this spiteful little outburst of yours, and how easy it was to simply turn your back on this movement, just goes to show that you weren't really into it the first place.

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I disagree, Patriarchy is not a term that should be interchangeable with oligarchy. "Patriarchy" implies a rule by men, for men. I don't see any evidence of the ruling class showing a special concern for men as a group. And the top rung of society was absolutely not predominantly male - the public face of it was. The ruling class has always been half female, because it has always been made of families. The women of the ruling class played their role, helping to plan family alliances through marriages, gathering and transmitting useful information through the semi-separate female social web, and instilling ruling-class values in the next generation. And you can bet, in many cases, advising their husbands and in some cases steering them. These were women who grew up around money, power and politics. They weren't vapid incubators for the next generation of little princes. It's funny, the PC view is to assume that women's contributions are hidden from history - for every bit we know about, there are ten we don't. Except when it comes to the uncomfortable parts - those we're expected to assume women were merely mute witnesses to. Who thinks the wife of the wealthy slave trader didn't know how her silks and jewels were paid for? Who thinks his daughter didn't understand where her dowry came from, to ensure her a good marriage? Does anyone think these women didn't mercilessly wring any idealism or egalitarian sympathies out of their sons before they were put in charge of the family's fortune?

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You don't understand this subreddit at all. The problem isn't individual feminists, it's feminism itself. An ideology predicated on the premise that women are an oppressed class, and men the oppressors. Feminists can be the most caring people in the world, but as long as they subscribe to an ideology that stresses the agency of men and the lack of agency in women, you will always end up with people blaming society's ills on men, and ignoring their problems.

It's similar to antisemitism, in that even if an antisemite is willing to concede that not all Jews are like that, they will always think that most problems stems from Judaism, or Jews themselves (replace with "masculinity" and "men" as needed). Hence "toxic masculinity", "rape culture", "pay gap" and so on. And while feminism is an ideological construct one can choose to believe in or not, there isn't much men can do about who they are, and it is quite condescending to tell them who they should be (shouldn't we decide that for ourselves?).

But in the end, the real problem with the feminist cultural substract, is that to correct this "male problem", you always end up using some kind of violence against men, whether legal, social, economical or even physical. And everytime the MRM tries to remedy those problems facing men, feminists oppose us.

So, when we rail about this prejudiced ideology which has a clear misandrist core, and that you then accuse us of being "hateful"... this makes about as much sense as the KKK complaining about racism among blacks.

So yes, most of us dislike feminism because it is misandrist at its very core, and oppose feminist activism which robs us of legal protections, parental rights, economic opportunities, and never seems to stop smearing us with the "rapist" or "oppressor" brush. It is quite a normal and justified reaction to their bigotry, and you'll note that there are quite a number of women MRA's among us, just as feminism attracts many men.

I hope this will clarify our stance, and raise you out of your funk.

Peace.

Edit: before replying the usual banalities about the plight of women, watch this video first, please. girlwriteswhat has done excellent work about our stance on feminism, there.

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Here's the issue as I see it. Feminism claims to be about equality. And that very well may be true. It's a truly noble goal. The issue arises from where feminism views the "starting points" of men and women. If feminism's default position is that women are inherently oppressed by men, the way to achieve "equality" is to disadvantage men so that women reach parity with the perceived advantages that men supposedly have. The issue is that feminism's primary assumptions are flawed from the outset. Women are not "oppressed". The assumption of course, is that women start out at such a low point, status wise, that men must be disadvantaged in order to level the playing field. Unfortunately, when making the comparison, only the womens side of the equation is factored in. Men and women both face advantages and disadvantages. Feminism seeks to only address the issues facing women as they view men to have no or few disadvantages in comparison. The only way that we will achieve actual equality is for the feminist movement to realize (fat chance, I know) that we need to address our issues in a non gendered way and to stop heaping the blame for society's ills at the feet of men. The reality now though is that the financial incentives to continue in this vein are such that feminism will continue to create new and better ways to portray women as oppressed by "The Patriarchy". As long as Feminism continues to follow this philosophy, MRA's will be fighting back against it. As it stands now, Feminism has already achieved such goals as 18 years of indentured servitude for fathers, indefinite servitude for ex husbands, presumption of guilt in sexual assault with minimal rights of defence, primary aggressor status in DV, zero reproductive autonomy, Debtor's prison, and several others too numerous to list. Men and boys are born into all of this and you think you are doing us a favour by saying it's OK if we want an EZ bake oven and calling that fighting for equality? Fuck. That. Noise.

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Men have power because they are men

Wat.

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I think it is true that men commit most rapes. So, those things are trying to cut out a big chunk of rape by targeting men with their message. HOWEVER, I did notice that the message on the urinal cake implies that only men rape, which is shitty. That may be because it is a message on a urinal cake without a lot of room for nuance, but it could have been done much better.

But, to speak to your main point, "only men can stop rape" slogans don't mean that feminists, as a whole, think that men, as a whole, set out to intentionally make the lives of women, and only women, worse, and only worse. It means that the creators of those slogans think that men, people who identify as males in male bodies, commit almost all rapes and that they sacrificed the accuracy of their message to the catchiness of their message.

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Of course it shouldn't...but why should a man be judged and condemned if he behaves in a manner traditionally considered feminine? Femininity isn't bad. Why should a woman be judged and condemned if she behaves in a manner traditionally considered masculine? Masculinity isn't bad. What if that's who these people are? Not every woman is womanly... some are mannish by nature. Why should they have to pretend? Same goes with men - some are naturally more feminine and they shouldn't have to pretend otherwise. It's not fair to pigeonhole everyone and make everyone adhere to one role only; people aren't cookie-cutters. We're individuals. We should be allowed to be.

This isn't the same as making a negative choice and then expecting to be free from the consequences of that. This isn't the same as deciding, for example, to cheat on your spouse and then whining that society is judging you and saying you're a bad person. I'd agree with you if that were the case with this particular issue, but it's not.

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Title	Sometimes we need to remember that oppressive gender roles hurt everybody. (x-post from 2x)
Author	goofygoobarock
Upvotes	709
Comments	315
Date	May 30, 2012 2:46 AM UTC (14 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/ubh9i/sometimes_we_need_to_remember_that_oppressive/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/sometimes-we-need-to-remember-that-oppressive.1020826 https://theredarchive.com/post/1020826

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