Women don't age like Milk

CautionaryWarning · 2022-04-25T17:49:16+00:00

Healthy and fit people age gracefully, the rest are bananas outside the fridge.

TonytheNetworker · 2022-04-25T18:26:07+00:00

Just like your post has alluded to there’s too many factors for it to be a simple blanket statement. If a women was in her mid 30s but kept herself in shape and presented well I would prefer her over a early 20 something year old girl who doesn’t stay in shape/bad habits.

The argument is that younger women are universally more attractive than older women. And admittedly there’s some truth to it. Younger women tend to have no kids, less baggage, more fun (whatever that might entail), etc.

One overlooked aspect is that guys have an extremely wide spectrum of women they’re attracted to so guys Will still happily talk to older women. Women aging like milk can be rooted in fear mongering, making women feel like they have less value as they age or “their time is up soon.”

Lift_and_Lurk · 2022-04-25T17:41:39+00:00

Wife’s joke: “hard drugs, late nights, and hard alcohol will make you age like milk. But: Yoga, weekend brunch and White Claw will help you age like MILF”

Wide-Illustrator2906 · 2022-04-25T19:37:26+00:00

There are exceptions to every rule but the rule is still the standard. Women in their 20's are more physically attractive than women in their 30's. In your example you gave the younger woman more negative traits because even you know if they were both even in terms of looks, status, behavior and occupation, 90% of men would choose the 23 year old over the 33 year old.

Teflon08191 · 2022-04-25T17:44:19+00:00

Obviously youth alone won't be able to negate a bunch of giant red flags in a woman, but youth will always be the deciding factor for desirability between two otherwise hypothetically identical women.

There's some truth to the phrase you mentioned in the title of this thread due to that specific fact. 31 year old Sarah will always lose to 25 year old Sarah in desirability.

hhhhhhikkmvjjhj · 2022-04-25T21:15:38+00:00

I think women have historically had more options in terms of plastic surgery and makeup etc then men (social acceptance). I think this has a huge impact on how we view aging. Men tend to age faster because we can’t hide it.

pielok · 2022-04-25T17:41:00+00:00

Honestly, this thought process would turn me off from ever marrying a man if he thought this way. Why would I bother developing a relationship with someone who would leave me after I “hit the wall” in my thirties and trade me in for someone younger? Do men realize their wives will age?

Fortunately I’m engaged to a guy that doesn’t think like this.

AZNDevil · 2022-04-25T19:06:09+00:00

If age/body youthfulness is the only difference then we are going with the 21 year old vs a 31 year old woman.

In your example, it's a bad comparison because having all those characteristics in one person is just flat out so unlikely in probability. In terms of finding that stuff in the younger generation? Much easier except the whole college degree because of the fact they're younger so they probably have done less what a 31 year old has done in her life.

sarkington · 2022-04-25T17:49:17+00:00

Kids often do a number on women’s bodies. Not all, though

PlayfulLawyer · 2022-04-25T17:51:47+00:00

Physically, you are right, it's really about taking care of yourself, eating right, working out, hydration, sleep, genetics, etc.,

I always took that quote to mean what I always say is that men see women as sex objects, women see men as success objects, and despite what people think male and female attraction is not symmetrical so a woman whose 20, a guy who still looks good but is also established in his career at age 28, 29, 30 or whatever is going to be more attractive than the other way around, and how a woman doesn't have quite the same relationship options at 28 or 30 compared to when she was 18 and 20, and how generally a guy's value especially for what we want has to be built, whereas women are born with it and just have to preserve it, it's like the candy store analogy, trust fund babies vs self made lol

Dramatic-Emu-1196 · 2022-04-26T04:16:06+00:00

There are tons of women who are hot as fuck into their 30s. Some even into their 40s, and a rare breed into their 50s.

This idea that women hit "the wall" at 25 or whatever is fucking stupid. Yes, your average 22 year old will be hotter than your average 32 year old, but that doesn't mean that there aren't super hot 32 year olds.

But at the end of the day, this sub is ruled by male virgins who would be lucky to fuck a 400lb whale. So what's the point of even asking? They'll lick the cheeto dust off their keyboard and tell you that a 140lb girl is fat.

Potential_Respond224 · 2022-04-25T21:01:36+00:00

Milk doesn't age like milk.

I know milk that's been in the freezer for a year that I can defrost and drink that'd be just as refreshing as milk I could buy at the shops today.

Meanwhile, you have milk that can be bought today and be rotten tomorrow if I leave it out in the sun uncovered for flies and maggots to get at it.

The amount of time one goes round the sun is not the only factor affecting its value.

Lateralanouncer · 2022-04-25T21:04:29+00:00

It's really not your place to tell the opposite sex what to think. When men are considering a woman for a long term or even family investment standards go up dramatically.

silveryspoons · 2022-04-25T22:48:26+00:00

I'm a 23 year old woman. Everyone thinks I'm 16, maybe 17-18. I've gotten 14 and 15 a few times this year already. I'm not boyish or short or anything like that whatsoever. It's just my overall look and face hasn't changed since I was a teenager. I have no idea what this "women are less attractive past 18-22" crap is. Bro can you even tell? 18-22 is freakishly young too. I still feel like a kid.

Where I work I serve hundreds of customers daily. I assume moms with teenage/young adult daughters are at least in their 40s? Maybe late 30s if they were a teen mom but eh. They might even be in their 50s. Pretty much all of the skinny moms are attractive. The only ones that don't look good are the fat ones. Most of the moms are genuinely prettier than the daughters. I saw an absolutely stunning mom today with 4 children, including one baby about 1 year old. Women age really really well. I think having kids helps because it keeps you active.

Green__Bananas · 2022-04-25T23:51:28+00:00

Your thinking is flawed. You’re thinking in terms of possibilities, not probabilities.

On a balance of probabilities a younger girl will be more attractive than an older one.

343_peaches_and_tea · 2022-04-26T15:47:05+00:00

It's mostly about averages.

The average 23yo woman is much more attractive to men than the average 35yo woman.

The women aging worse than men is more about how men of many ages all chase after than same women. Men in their 20s,30s and 40s are all chasing after 23yos. Men in their 30s/40s are often using their credit card to make up the difference.

The same doesn't happen with women so much. They tend to prefer their own age and older.

This generally means that women in the 18-25 range get a LOT of interest which dies off quicker with age than it does for men who IMO peak in their mid 20s.

I remember being 20 and seeing men in their 30s all trying to date the same women I was.

In terms of aging in general into the 30s. Both men and women can fight off aging by eating well, using sunscreen, not smoking, and exercise. When you hit your 30s the gap between those who look after themselves and those who don't becomes huge. Those who relied on good genetics plummet HARD if they don't put effort in.

purplish_possum · 2022-04-26T16:32:29+00:00

MC/UMC women usually don't hit the wall until their mid 40s. It shouldn't surprise anyone that a college educated 31 year old woman is still attractive.

mountainofjoy · 2022-04-28T05:03:51+00:00

I feel like people ignore genetics on this sub 😂

Don’t forget there are people out there who just LOOK YOUNG no matter what.

I’m going to turn 30 this year and could EASILY pass for 20. I don’t smoke or drink or so drugs, sure, and that helps, but I also just have a very young looking face and personality. I’m starting to appreciate it now lol.

There are people who just WILL look younger forever. It’s in their genetics. (My parents are in their 50s and look 40 tops) my brother in law has the youngest looking face; when he’s 30 I’m sure he’ll still get carded.

sfalgo · 2022-04-25T19:12:29+00:00

The issue for me with early 30s women is not that they can't look just as attractive as women in their mid 20s (they can), it's that they are going to want to rush into having kids which is a huge turn-off. Also, if early 30s women "accidentally" get pregnant they will probably keep it -- another turn-off. If you're man that has the ability to date either women in their 30s or 20s, 20s is just a better all-around choice in most cases (unless you're a single dad or something like that).

Hoopy223 · 2022-04-25T18:12:39+00:00

Oh boy.

Everybody ages but women have a couple other issues that make it tougher. Pregnancy for example is very hard on the human body. Weight gain is another, women don’t burn calories the same way men do because of hormonal issues among other things.

Also fitness and being healthy isn’t popular like it used to be. Being overweight is in style now. So then they get to 30 and they want to be in better shape except its much harder. A relative of mine is a physical fitness trainer and he gets a ton of new clients every New Year’s. Three months later that New Year’s resolution to get in shape goes out the window lol.

When I was younger I didn’t take care of my body either and now I’m paying for it. It’s really really hard to stay in OK shape.

DivineWakaloon · 2022-04-25T19:53:51+00:00

Let's put it another way. Women's fecundity markers age like milk. Sure remains strong and independent, stunning and brave, but her fecundity goes to shit. And what were positive markers become negative.

That does mean she can't get laid and date men, women can do that well into her 80s. That never changes.

Someone wanting her for a viable wife and mother, however, disappears. Because her fecundity to produce children aged like milk.

Pastelitomaracucho · 2022-04-25T20:19:36+00:00

Yes they do.

Lurrtopia · 2022-04-25T23:25:38+00:00

Aged milk is cheese. Everyone goes mad for cheese.

ogsimpology · 2022-04-25T20:53:00+00:00

I've seen 20yo women who look like shit, I've seen 50 year old women that made me salivate.

Shredddz · 2022-04-25T23:37:17+00:00

the thing is youthfulness is valued more than in men, especially youthful tight collagen rich skin, which rapidly declines after 25. This is connected to hormones lowering, and is what causes the loss in attractiveness, a long side enthusiastic behavior getting lost, hair loossing their texture, lips flattening etc which are all dimorphic features.

On top of that you have body count, trauma, life experience with is inherently bad, and the rapid decline of egg cell quality, which is exponentially more severe than with sperm.

I am not opposed to having sex with women who are in their 30s even though Im only 23 if they retain attractiveness, but young women who are equally as attractive at the same age are light years better in every way. An older women just doesnt make me feel masculine, doesnt trigger protective instincts, doesnt respect me like a younger women regardless of what I do just for looking younger, you children will be way uglier because of the DNA damage to egg cells, there wont be any enthusiasm and euphoric behavior at that age, nor are they as adventurous as younger women.

they can be as in shape as they want, the youthful features are not coming back.

Id rather have a 20 year old 6 than a 40 year old women who was a 10 when young. maybe if she was like 30 it would make up for all the downsides.

athlete2biz · 2022-04-25T17:48:25+00:00

this is a dumb post

complete non sequitur

Fit-Faithlessness149 · 2022-04-25T18:48:03+00:00

The phrase doesn't mean that women in their 20s can't be undesirable or that women in their 40s are always undesirable. It means that youth is the number one selling factor from a primitive lizard brain point of view in men. The youthful version of the same girl will almost always be better than the older version except in cases of extreme weight loss and personal makeovers. On the other hand men tend to become more desirable as they age into their 30s because we not only trade on looks but also clout and resources which increases with time.

errrright · 2022-04-25T18:41:51+00:00

I’ve seen it go both ways in the 18-35 year old timeframe.

Women who are attractive during their college years but drink, smoke, and/or eat like shit will start seeing the effects on their faces and bodies in their mid-twenties.

On the other hand, women who take care of themselves might actually find themselves to be more attractive as they go into their thirties - this happened to me. I had my wild child phase in college but I still took care of myself, ate well, and stayed active. At 27, I am much more attractive than I was at 18-22 - I lost a lot of my buccal fat, my skin cleared up, and my body is stronger and fully matured.

Of course genetics also plays a significant role in this, but as far as aging beyond our prime years, very few people (women or men) actually age like fine wine. I don’t any people who look naturally better at 50 than they did at 30, unless they went through something like a significant weight loss.

SurelyWoo · 2022-04-25T21:54:03+00:00

To me, women age more like a roller coaster. The newest model may appeal to some, but the older one is still an exciting ride and provides a more comfortable experience. And for some, not being able to have children is a feature, not a bug.

Moneydamjan · 2022-04-25T21:42:26+00:00

a chubby cute 20 year old woman is still more valuable and desired than most 40 year old women

HazyMemory7 · 2022-04-25T21:53:19+00:00

A 31 year old woman straight up can't compete with a hot 20 year old girl

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NockerJoe · 2022-04-25T22:23:10+00:00

There are a few of things I've noticed that kind of decide the whole thing:

Modern western(and especially American) people have a tendency to age worse. Some of this is genetic since most of them come from groups that tend to show signs of aging a bit faster, some of it is lifestyle since Americans eat a lot of processed foods and have poor nutrition for various reasons, and some of it boils down to a bunch of other little factors that add up like cultural mindsets or individual common practices and conditions that can age people differently.
People in the west have an extreme extreme view of how young and old works. A big part of this goes back to the boomers in their youth being really rebelious and anti establishment before getting into the Regan/Thatcher conservativism but there's a general idea that when you're young you're hip and hot and a free spirit but by the time you're like 30 you're stodgy and old and boring and past that you're not really culturally relevant anymore.
People who are really young(still students, surrounded by students of the same age group generally) often have a really unrealistic idea of how life works in relation to age. If you go around social media it's trendy for a lot of young women to talk about how they planned their whole life out meticulously where they do a bunch of shit on a schedule and then settle down as mature sophisticated adults in their mid to late twenties with the kind of status and position that's in actuality more common in your 30's or 40's. Even here you see a lot of people who are in that cohort who talk about being fat and balding by the time they hit 26 as if it's the norm.
The whole concept of looking younger as you age is still kind of a new idea. A lot of the concepts being explored about this only really go back to like the 90's in a theoretical sense and talks about how to actually accomplish it in measured ways weren't super common before like the mid to late 2000's. Things like antioxidants and telomeres and the actual nitty gritty of the mechanisms you can use to do these things only became sophisticated and accessible fairly recently. Human trials on concepts that yield actual substantial results have only really begun happening in the last two years or so for most concepts on how to significantly slow aging. Since most of our cultural ideas on how aging works in the west are rooted in 20th century norms it's going to take a while for people to catch up.

We're in a kind of weird time where longstanding rules for how people age are being actively redrawn with some regularity and if you ask a lot of actual experts in actual labs putting out breakthroughs they don't really know how aging actually works. There are a lot of new therapies and tests being done that seem to age people in reverse, with cells being rejuvenated faster than they can degrade due to age, with lab rats losing basically all of their age related disabilities and being reset to youthful vitality. The scientist interviewed for that one revealed his own biological clock was reset from his cells acting like they were around 50 to being around 30 and he looks the part so he's obviously onto something.

I think the reality is if you're in your 20's now "the wall" isn't really a realistic concept if you put in enough time and effort. Scientists are talking about reversing bodily wear and tear, tacking on over a decade to womens fertile periods, and a whole lot of really ambitious claims that are in many cases actually being proven correct. A lot of early adopters who found similar practices are now senior citizens who are visibly more young and full of vitality than their peers, and we're starting to see people who are up to 100 years old or even older who are more or less fully mobile and still competing in some sports, some of which they took up as senior citizens.

EthicallyIlliterate · 2022-04-25T23:07:52+00:00

Hell nah they dont man. After 50 yes but if she takes care of her self no way. Gym is a must.

DeliciousPussyNectar · 2022-04-26T01:02:44+00:00

Nobody disagrees with this

BecretAlbatross · 2022-04-26T01:42:08+00:00

I care about a woman's body a lot more than her face so wrinkles don't really turn me off. I know a lot of guys like a youthful looking appearance more, so I recognize I'm probably in the minority of men. I agree with your premise, but if most men don't feel that way, then most men don't feel that way.

oneandonlyA · 2022-04-26T01:55:20+00:00

Aging like milk might be an exaggeration but there's certainly something to it.

Compare these two graphs:

A woman's age vs. the age of the men who look best to her

A man's age vs. the age of the women who look best to him

There's no doubt some women peak later in life. I remember a woman around 32 at my work place and none of the men could keep their eyes off her. I stalked her Facebook, and she was really average around 20-24, wasn't fat or anything in her early 20s, I honestly couldn't explain what it was, but she certainly was WAY hotter at 32.

These type of women are rare though. The absolute majority of women are going to look the best in their 20s when women appear the most fertile. It is possible to look better in your 30s, if you didn't take care of yourself in your 20s. However, a woman that took care equally care of herself in 20s and 30s will look better in her twenties 99 % of the time.

Key-Selection-522 · 2022-04-26T04:22:21+00:00

Some do, some don't. All walks of life, different backgrounds. Some have some fire genetics.

_Wolfszeit_ · 2022-04-26T11:25:13+00:00

Yes there's definitely a difference between chronological age and biological age and as you pointed it out, good or bad habits, genetics and some other factors can influence biological age in a positive or negative way.

Head-Inspection-5984 · 2022-04-26T14:06:15+00:00

It depends on how hard they work on themselves. My mother could’ve passed for my older sister when I was around 14, and she was in her mid to late 30’s at the time. And she worked hard on her fitness.

MissLute · 2022-04-26T14:30:17+00:00

everyone ages like milk, only the genetically blessed and/or wealthy enough to afford treatments don't

DisregardTheBard · 2022-04-26T14:53:50+00:00

Can't "hit" the wall if you just step around it.

EstablishmentKooky50 · 2022-04-26T15:05:19+00:00

That a girl in her early 20's is more valuable than one in their iearly 30's.

No! You are confusing attractiveness with personal value. A girl in her 20-s is POTENTIALLY more sexually attractive then the same woman in her 30-s. It says nothing about how valuable she is as a person. Mother Theresa was a very valuable woman, but let's be honest she wasn't attractive.

It's all about potential for both sexes and it is possible for us all not to live up to our potential. Some women do better in their 30-s but that doesn't mean that they couldn't do even better in their 20-s if they wouldn't "let themselves go". Wether we accept it or not, women's fertility decreases and pregnancy becomes more dangerous/risky for both mother and child with age.

Christian_Kong · 2022-04-26T15:25:01+00:00

Due to various factors I would say they are likely to age more poorly.

Women put on weight easier and due to their stature wear it worse. I believe this has to do with hormone cycles. If you compare to average BMI men/women to eachother the man will typically look better(as in better weight distribution. I believe it is actually harder for women to lose weight than men, but don't quote me on that.

I feel there are other social factors that ugly women at a higher rate but in large that is because men kind of go from ugly to aged/ugly and women often go from cute to aged in that time. These are all personal theories off of anecdotal evidence though.

detoxiccity2 · 2022-04-26T15:37:40+00:00

I'd say it depends on the person and how they take care of themselves, lifestyle and genetics.

I've noticed that women typically age better than men simply because men are more subjected to austere conditions, some by themselves usually because of signaling theory

Except for doctors. Every male doctor that I've seen aged really well, I mean really well, in comparison to women.

penguintransformer · 2022-04-26T17:31:15+00:00

White people age like milk. Everyone else not so much.

zerofeetpersecond · 2022-04-26T17:47:41+00:00

It’s not just about “hotness” or else men would exclusively date hot cougars who are insatiable. The issue is men who want to build families don’t want a last minute baby with older women. Of course there are some 40 year old woman who take a better picture than women half their age, but they can’t have 3 kids as easily or safely as the younger women.

JumboJetz · 2022-04-26T21:06:50+00:00

This post is a cope. Of course you can find women in their 30s, 40s, 50s that look better than some 20 year olds. But no the average 20 year old woman will look better and have an easier time looking good.

Women in their 30s onwards need to really work at being attractive. It’s not unattainable but they need to work at it and actually invest time in their day to do so and not slack off.

PutthegundownRobby · 2022-04-27T00:43:42+00:00

P.S. Milk ages extremely well depending on the circumstances. You can get buttermilk, sour cream, yogurt, kefir, cheese, fancy butter, even liquor from it. Nothing wrong with fermented dairy! Nothing wrong at all.

king-bi-angel · 2022-04-27T15:54:36+00:00

I also think we look more like our lifestyles than our age sometimes. Genetics also play a major part (like how Black and Asian people physically age slower than white people on average, stuff like that). I’m mixed, only 21, but I regularly get confused for a 15-16 yo 😂 Then again, I’m also vegan, cannot stand cigarettes, drink responsibly, and don’t go overboard with skin/scalp/hair stuff (unless it’s my dry ass hands. Servers get it lol)

DrugDoer9000 · 2022-04-27T18:30:39+00:00

It’s pretty troll to raise kids beyond mid-30s, and human biology is raising red flags because ultimately you want successful offspring. So there’s certainly a stigma against older women even if they stay attractive.

Even putting aside pregnancy risks and lowered fertility, imagine becoming pregnant at 35, newborn at 36. By the time that kid graduates college, the parent will already be 58 years old. You’re probably going to have health issues and maybe even die before your children are financially stable. If your kids then also waited till 35 to have children, they’ll be about 10 years old when their grandparents hit the average life expectancy. Then imagine if you wanted more than 1 kid.

These age dynamics affect men, but imo to a much lower extent. Through most of human history it was a definite possibility for the father to leave or die, while the mother raises the children.

Rook_Cross · 2022-04-28T00:26:08+00:00

It's true, generally. Women take better care of themselves and hair loss can really, really have an effect on a man's looks. You'll get all these comments about 20 somethings being more attractive, and that is generally true. However, that doesn't mean the 30 something is unattractive, or even much less attractive. The other thing is about how "women want resources". BS. These attractions evolved back when we lived like animals. Older men got supplanted by younger, just like you see in every other species. Younger sperm has a higher chance of impregnanting a woman. Athletes tend to end their careers early. Women like youth too, genarally. The thing is that looks is not the only thing that matters in a partner and we are, at least a little, more enlightened now and understand their are higher things than the youngest, hottest model. I think RPers focus on this one thing because it's their personal obsession, looks. but yeah, I'd say women age better, even without make-up, but, especially when you factor in hair dye and hair care and men losing hair. Skincare is the other big one too. Extra weight is unattractive on both and will age you.

urukshai · 2022-04-28T18:48:45+00:00

That a girl in her early 20's is more valuable than one in their iearly 30's.

Personal and social value and styke? It often Rises.

Sexual value? Not so much.

But don't worry... People are not less valuable for not being sexually desired, but there is value in sexual desire and attraction itself.

Unless you lost lots of weight or got a very radical surgery after tour 20a... No more free stuff from guys in your 30s as in your 20s, sorry sis.

creekcrystall · 2022-04-29T05:57:07+00:00

If you don’t want to age terribly, take care of yourself. That’s means no drinking, smoking, partying, drugs, eating out everyday and so on. But that’s too boring for most people which in turn causes most people to look 45 when they’re 30 or 25.

Of course genetics plays a role in this too.

Jazzlike-Banana-7010 · 2022-05-08T20:45:38+00:00

Neither

OldSimpsonsisbetter · 2022-04-25T21:42:27+00:00

Anyone can age well if they look after themselves appropriately. Lifestyle is the biggest factor.

I don't understand why you said this though:

"Change my mind"

Clearly you don't want your mind changed. You just want to get on your soapbox and state your opinion.

AbbreviationsHot1200 · 2022-04-26T00:12:52+00:00

Its because wrinkles on a man's face can still look good.

Wrinkles on a woman's face don't.

MOProG2 · 2022-04-26T01:49:09+00:00

I'm only 23, and I've seen several girls I went to highschool/ some college with, that let themselves go badly

I think that probably proves yourself. Men are generally attracted to physical features, Women are generally more open to behavioral/survival traits in men (charisma, financial stability, maturity etc). The things that make men attractive take more time to develop. The things that make women more attractive generally fall apart with the aging process (slower metabolism, cellular degeneration of the skin, fair falling out. Women can mitigate that with diet and exercise, but because of multi-billion dollar industry of sugary junk food, that all but ensure only a minority of women actually fall into the "healthy" category over 30. Not to mention that fertility is inversely proportional to age.

So in short for building a family with biological children (short of using a surrogate, IVF etc) women "age like milk" in that sense when we are talking about dating. But as people/platonic friends everyone gets better with age.

Transmigratory · 2022-04-26T03:36:48+00:00

Man takes a general idea and tries to disprove it with outliers and says gotcha.

Tbh, social class or socioeconomic status makes a difference. Your older hotties are probably higher in the income ladder and younger uggos are probably lower.

deoutro_planeta · 2022-04-26T08:21:50+00:00

You will never be loved.

PutthegundownRobby · 2022-04-27T00:33:45+00:00

The "age like milk" is such a stupid concept, it's hurtful and misogynistic too. I think the guys who say that shit might be degenerates who are into lolitas anyway. Ignore them. There is nothing wrong with an older lady. Nothing wrong at all!!! Many of them take good care of themselves, are fit, and have a high sex drive so...

Title	Women don't age like Milk
Author	ThoughtfulObserver99
Upvotes	35
Comments	232
Date	April 25, 2022 5:28 PM UTC (4 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/ubqijf/women_dont_age_like_milk/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/women-dont-age-like-milk.1113455 https://theredarchive.com/post/1113455

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