the problem isn't sex the problem is that men are still expected to be traditional while women aren't

a_popful_mail · 2022-10-30T12:10:25+00:00

You know there is some really good points on stuff here. It really isn't fair that men get judged unfairly based on their economic situation or their lifestyle choices like if they decide to be a stay at home dad, for example. Feminism originally didn't really take this stuff into account because it was more pressed trying to equalize certain elements that at the time were really bad for women. That has ripples only now we are just starting to look into and address. I've heard people talk about the stuff here you just mentioned more and more, especially in leftist circles, and trying to work through it socially in those space and address those problems. Its not necessarily feminism's fault so much as a societal faulted byproduct of a great many things we need to all learn to address socially internally and otherwise.

Because I do agree. Its unfair that many schools still only contact the mother no matter what. Or that stay at home dads are often shamed. Or that many people value men less based on whatever value their pocketbook has. Or how many women are assumed to just be the default better parent. Lots of things. I really hope anyone who comes across this stuff really thinks this stuff over. We're talking gender equality here and we should always fight for that. All for everyone.

Nellylocheadbean · 2022-10-30T14:47:14+00:00

I agree, as a woman, I believe many modern women are basically hypocrites. Want traditional men (men approach them, provider, protective, exhibit masculine traits etc) but they do not want to be traditional (feminine, weigh less than a man, at all. They have all these standards for men but if a man wants a non overweight woman or a woman with low n count (things u have control over) they’re insulted (ad hominem) They want the benefits of modern feminism along with the benefits of a patriarchal society. That’s why the dating market is skewed. Men have adapted to this and unfortunately the average man may not be successful but the above average men have their pick of the litter with women. They’re the true ones in control and that’s due to the skewed market that women created. Women have leverage over average men but above average men have the leverage over everyone.

Wide-Illustrator2906 · 2022-10-30T04:47:10+00:00

We are living in an extreme culture clash in modern society were it is modern women and traditional men pitted against each other. The issue with modern women is that they are still seeking out traditional men while not being traditional in any way. Traditional men generally want traditional women. Until modern women adapt and start dating amd marrying non- traditional men the two sides will always be at odds.

Demasii · 2022-10-30T02:28:54+00:00

I agree that women have more social freedom to exhibit different personality types and lifestyles than men but ultimately the problem is women are more willing to stay uncoupled while enjoying their traditionally unattractive characteristics.

The "anticapitalist blue haired obese tattooed feminist" type have developed a sense of purpose in life that goes beyond the desire for male validation. Only a HVM can make these women feel like it's worth abandoning that purpose.

Men don't have that. Alot of men's life purpose still come from women.

Ok_Razzmatazz_1751 · 2022-10-30T17:05:52+00:00

Lawyer is not wifing up the Mc Donald's employee, she's just a Saturday night special.

Five_Decades · 2022-10-30T05:16:53+00:00

I think women's attitudes towards men who reject traditional gender roles is about where men's attitudes towards women who rejected traditional gender roles was in the 1970s.

Back in the 1970s if a woman was empowered, career oriented, educated, dominant etc. she'd be called a lesbian, made fun of, told no man would want her, etc.

Traditional gender roles for men are to be stoic, competent, self-sacrificial, career oriented, constantly working to better the life of his family, in control, etc. But some men reject that. Some men are submissive, overly emotional and just want to play video games all day when they're not working a job that pays $13/hr. They're perfectly happy to do that and perfectly happy to live that way.

So women call them losers, failures, manboys, incels, told no woman would ever want them, etc. Basically its ok to ridicule a man who rejects traditional gender roles and to say he will never find a partner, but ridiculing a woman who rejects traditional gender roles and telling her she'll never find a partner is socially unacceptable. Calling an overly emotional guy who makes mediocre wages and is not assertive a loser is fine, but calling a dominant female lawyer who works 80 hours a week a lesbian is not.

Basically male gender equality has a long way to go. A woman who rejects gender roles is accepted but a man who rejects gender roles is not. It'll be decades before male gender equality catches up to female gender equality.

Even when women say they want men to reject traditional gender roles, they really don't. They may say they want a man to be emotional and vulnerable, but they really only want those things on the woman's terms. If hes too emotional or vulnerable she will lose interest and call him some variation of a loser (in her head, or outloud) because his overt display of vulnerability makes her feel unsafe. A lot of women who say they want a man to be vulnerable just want the guy to show a hint of vulnerability before taking charge and solving the problem, ie to show vulnerability on the woman's terms in ways that benefit the woman.

liefelijk · 2022-10-30T02:06:10+00:00

Unfortunately, men’s rights activists aren’t fighting to support nontraditional men. Instead, they’re fighting to limit nontraditional women and return to an earlier way of life.

Traditional lifestyles were restrictive and harmful for both men and women, so why fight for them to return?

bluestjuice · 2022-10-30T01:52:19+00:00

I read all the way through this but I don’t really understand from the OP what being ‘a traditional man’ entails specifically, or what they would prefer to have the freedom to do instead.

I kind of think that at no time like the present have there been so many opportunities to reimagine various models of masculinity and find women interested in those models, but I feel like I need more specifics to really discuss.

Twinseo09 · 2022-10-30T04:00:58+00:00

Women do have more freedom. It’s due to men standards being lower but also because women do not base there entire actions around the approval of man.

Man do all this performative action for sex and validation from women. Feminism was about freeing women not men. Invest in your own fucking movemen instead of only fans, porn, video games and podcast and you might get somewhere.

wtknight · 2022-10-30T01:29:27+00:00

Men want to still be traditional because it's what women want and therefore gives these men more sexual opportunities. So the issue is not that men are expected to be traditional, it's that they want sex enough that they will voluntarily act traditional in order to obtain it.

fiftypoundpuppy · 2022-10-30T02:16:56+00:00

And honestly looking at feminism and its Origins it's easy to see how it was more so Female Supremacy than really equal ity because we are not seeing it today

Yes. So easy to see how women advocated for "female supremacy." They were practically dressing in white robes and burning crosses.

Right now in this generation girlfriend cousin sister or female classmate can choose whether or not she wants to be a traditional stay-at-home wife or a modern woman and there's almost no pushback or penalty from society

She has to find a partner in order to do one of those things. Just like a stay-at-home dad would. There's no difference. There's no societal punishment for stay-at-home dads, no smear campaigns against them. This is reeking of victimhood.

But the same is not true for men as every man knows if he tries to forego the male gender role, or whatever his generation standard of manhood is then he can expect to be made fun of, rejected, abused, bullied and emasculated.

Mainly by other men. It's called toxic masculinity.

And I think dating itself kind of throws a lot of what them to say out of whack because how many women they are just not the same look for different things and of course you're going to have inequality come to the mix

I have no idea what this is even trying to say.

An 18 year old girl in an 18 year old boy are not on the same level sexually as that 18 year old boy will not have nearly as much as attention or opportunities to have different types of relationships and sex then his female counterpart can

For every straight female in a relationship there's a straight man in the relationship with her, is there not? And what are "different types of relationships?" Again, if she's a straight woman in a relationship, there's a man in the relationship with her.

The "attention" is y'alls fault. Tell your cohorts to stop being so thirsty. It's not on the fault of women if men are fawning over them.

To top that off the only way men can appear attractive to women is through or perceived ask better than the woman which is harder to do now since women can earn just as much as man

A lawyer can date a McDonald's worker because he does not care how much she makes but a female lawyer will not date a male McDonald's worker because she still wants a man who was higher caliber

I'm going to assume this is intended to say something about men needing to earn more money than women because something something hypergamy. Women marry average Joes every single day. Even working class couples marry.

And this idea that women as a group marry up but men have no qualms about marrying down is ridiculous. Most people couple up and marry someone of their same socio-economic group. I don't know why this sub is so obsessed with the demographic of high-earning or highly-educated women who refuse to date someone without the same credentials. Men aren't that different here either. It's not some frequent occurrence to see male lawyers dating fast food workers, like come on.

What's frustrating as a modern man is that you're still expected to act like a traditional man and there's almost no choice especially if you want to actually lose your virginity or engage in casual sex

You learn quickly that you can't just really be yourself or try to be something not stereotypically masculine because while you can do it you also probably will not have as much female attention or success with women

You know, I'm going to take you at your word here for the sake of conversation and not nitpick about what the fuck you even mean by "acting like a traditional man." What, exactly, would you propose to happen? Let's say that some men can only be laid by lying about who they are because no one is attracted to their true selves. Obviously there's a contingent here who would have no qualms about supporting the deceit. Of course, I do not. But what you can't do is control how someone else reacts or feels about you.

So what is the point of the "conversation?" You either find it ethical to lie to others to get your dick wet or you don't.

kalashhhhhhhh · 2022-10-30T08:42:57+00:00

A lawyer can date a McDonald's worker because he does not care how much she makes

Bro a male lawyer isn't dating a McDonalds worker. Sleeping with her? Sure.

New_Relative_8709 · 2022-10-30T01:45:50+00:00

I had a stroke trying to read this, so many spelling and grammar mistakes

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BlackPorcelainDoll · 2022-10-30T02:02:21+00:00

What part of the United States of America do you all live?

Tricky_Dog1465 · 2022-10-30T08:02:38+00:00

I'm not sure I agree with this.

I know quite a few young couples where the woman works and the man stays home with the kids.

I know couples where both work and both care for the kids and home.

I don't think there is a traditional relationship tbh. All couples should be sitting their happy butts down and deciding what is best for themselves.

Draggonzz · 2022-10-31T21:16:45+00:00

This is definitely a thing. As a guy it feels like I'm boxed into a corner of having to exhibit all the traditionally masculine traits everyone can enumerate reflexively: initiate with women, be confident, strong, stoic, funny, work full time at a good job and make a lot of money, yada yada. If you're not those, society sees you as, basically, a loser.

As a guy who's extremely passive, unconfident, unfunny, and has no money, I get how this goes.

On the other hand it seems women are 'allowed' to manifest many different personality types and lifestyles without it negatively impacting their status in society. It's much more difficult for a woman to be seen as a loser.

It's like women are living in 2022 but men still have to conform to 1952 standards.

Booexgirlfriend · 2022-10-30T05:13:07+00:00

A question. Are these girls feminists?

I'm asking you this out of ignorance because I'm a bit confused and it will help me to understand you better.

Also, is it possible to "expect" masculinity in one (taller, bigger) man than in other men?

Men can stop doing "it" and continue looking for a woman willing to take them as they are. They will do it?

A young woman has "power" in dating because men wanted it that way. Even nature wanted it that way.

If a man doesn't care about her job it's because she's hot (and young) to not care enough about her money. Men are willing to provide and play the role of a traditional man when the game is fair to them.

Also, these men are not usually average men.

Let's see, I'm not going to have sex on a first date because that's not my dating style and I don't want him to pay for my drink because I don't want to owe him anything.

Different concerns.

And I admit it, I enjoy the company of a masculine man. But don't confuse toxic masculinity and masculine energy.

Progressive men should date progressive women because they exist.

Or completely give up the need of femininity on women.

These women don't expect to be taken care of, tend to earn their own money, and have a higher opinion of emotionally open men.

It's a win-win.

therealcosmicnebula · 2022-10-30T02:38:46+00:00

Traditional men?

Where are all these men financially providing for women? 🤔

The vast majority of modern women earn their own money and pay for their own expenses.

A man occasionally buying a meal for a woman isn't "providing" shit, really.

Interested_Redditor · 2022-10-30T11:04:09+00:00

I have a brother who totally destroys this whole trope.

He was successful young, earned a ton of money and invested it. He stopped working and just lived life. Now he has a wife who makes substantially more than he ever did, annually, and he will be a stay home dad when she gives birth to their first in a few months.

He has no penalty or remorse because he's not on social anything and simply doesn't give a fuck about what a concentrated crowd of idiots, none of whom he knows personally, think about his arrangement.

monkymonkk · 2022-10-30T01:54:19+00:00

Right now in this generation girlfriend cousin sister or female classmate can choose whether or not she wants to be a traditional stay-at-home wife or a modern woman and there's almost no pushback or penalty from society

This is just an available option for all women? Why has the number of two income households dramatically increased within the last few years?

An 18 year old girl in an 18 year old boy are not on the same level sexually as that 18 year old boy will not have nearly as much as attention or opportunities to have different types of relationships and sex then his female counterpart can

What does this have to do with gender roles? The reason women get more attention is because men are hornier and easy.

A lawyer can date a McDonald's worker because he does not care how much she makes but a female lawyer will not date a male McDonald's worker because she still wants a man who was higher caliber

Yeah that’s how dating works. It’s exclusive and people don’t have to date you for whatever reason they want. If a high earning woman refuses to be with anyone but of a man in her caliber, that is her right and she must accept the consequences of her choice.

januaryphilosopher · 2022-10-30T07:41:00+00:00

Women are still expected to be traditional. "Modern women" are seen as less desirable, especially the more they deviate from roles. That McDonald's worker is probably going to be expected to quit or reduce her hours to help out her lawyer husband, although realistically she's end up dating another McDonald's worker as men don't tend to date outside their class either (being hypothetically willing to date someone doesn't really mean anything if you don't do anything about it). "Modern women" are generally just women who fulfil the female role while also working to help out men. Women who spend time making themselves look pretty, who are caring and helpful especially in the home, who are chaste, who aren't seen as loud or aggressive, are still seen as more desirable and way more likely to be chosen.

GovernmentSelect923 · 2022-10-30T03:49:23+00:00

A woman can become a lawyer, but a man can't give birth to a kid. Period, case closed.

Academic_Snow_7680 · 2022-10-30T21:37:21+00:00

I don't know what Bible-belt you live in but where I live nobody would be made fun of for being a SAHP.

You need better friends or to update your perception.

GoldSignal · 2022-10-30T03:53:23+00:00

Who would you be bullied/criticized by for not being “traditionally masculine”? Men. Who would take advantage of 18 year old girls sexually? Men. Who set up the rules of society and gender roles in the first place? Men. This entire post is a self report.

missionarymechanic · 2022-10-30T12:31:05+00:00

There is not a single American that I've met who's pressured me towards marriage when discussing the topic. Specifically in the vein of trying to find even one suitable American woman: vanity/slovenly, emotional instability from jacked-up/divorced families, crushing amounts of debt, and "just don't know if they want children."

And that's not including a few personal needs like: faith, being single, intelligent, and friendly.

That was the case before compatibility with missionary work was necessary. And even after, in an incredibly lop-sided demographic that has our own niche missionary dating website, American women are just... not really worth the effort. I'll respect anyone's calling, but even the ones who claim to be flexible... there's just nothing.

Meanwhile, foreign women? It's like night and day. So as long as you're not a douchebag or dressed like a tourist, you probably have a 90% success rate for grabbing coffee with a girl if she's single. If you're only there for 1-2 weeks, don't know the language or have connections? I wouldn't expect anything, but they're still way nicer.

Diamond-Breath · 2022-10-30T11:20:56+00:00

Since when? Women still take care of the home and the children, a lot of them do it while working too. It's men that are still pushing back, they don't want to provide and they don't want to participate in the child-rearing and house-keeping neither. You'd rather have everything on a silver platter and do nothing.

Lost-Zebra6453 · 2022-10-30T06:01:33+00:00

Feminist fought for the right to be able to work / be in positions med held.

Men have always had the choice available to them what they wanted to do that hasn’t changed. A man always has the right to be non traditional - he may not get respect sure if he wants to stay home and not work but the point is he always had the right

Women did not always have the right, and still fight for respect in male dominated fields

Stop woe is me. If you don’t wanna be traditional that’s fine, Sind someone who doesn’t mind you have that right. Respect isn’t always given unfortunately and that goes for everyone.

gate18 · 2022-10-30T12:28:54+00:00

I agree.

Hence, toxic masculinity.

And who are the proponents of this mentality? Men and forums like these.

There are plenty of men that forgo the traditional roles: some have fine lives, and probably some aren't getting any.

However, the consensus is, if you want to be successful you need to be an Alpha.

So your cretique is correct, but it sounds as though you aren't pointing to the issue - toxic masculine POVs, which are all over this sub and others.

How many times have you come across people recommending that men should be more like the women that have friends and talk openly with them, and see sexual relationships as a bonus but not as a lifeline?

"Oh no, you see, evolution" - rubbish.

Men are slaves of toxic masculinity.

You have incels that listen to Tate and whatever. agree that a man should bottle their feelings and should be Alphas. They are still incels, and have many other issues. Yet still insist that their "science" is correct.

anonymousUser1SHIFT · 2022-10-30T04:39:32+00:00

probably because we were born into a patriarchy which means we wrote the rules

edit also women making more actually balances things out for men with higher standards, as those women are forced to date down. Competition for women who are intelligent/driven has to be at an alltime low, the professional world seems to be full of married men and single women

kennedyking · 2022-10-30T12:58:51+00:00

I think the bigger question is why aren’t you masculine in the first place? Why don’t you naturally behave like a traditional masculine man ?

Mrs_Drgree · 2022-10-30T01:30:58+00:00

[permanently deleted]

EugeneCezanne · 2022-10-30T22:33:00+00:00

the fact that it really only freed up expectations and gender roles for one gender

Umm... it's called feminism. If men want to free up gender roles, they should just woman-up and make a movement about it.

But the same is not true for men as every man knows if he tries to forego the male gender role, or whatever his generation standard of manhood is then he can expect to be made fun of, rejected, abused, bullied and emasculated.

I would have agree... when I was 17. Then I started trying it. The consequences turned out to be largely nonexistent. Occasionally, if some guy did have a problem with it, I came to sort of pity them rather than being personally bothered.

ApplesauceThegod · 2022-10-31T05:54:10+00:00

It comes down to social class, Women comprehend that reality.

2022-10-31T15:38:38+00:00

how?

the vast majority of women partnered with men still work full time jobs.

2022-11-23T02:24:21+00:00

Yep. I’m better with kids than every woman I’ve met yet I’m having criticized for not wanting to be a provider, ie a good little ATM.

Wish I could marry up and be a STAHD. Or even marry same, I have a good job. But would rather do the childcare while she works

Title	the problem isn't sex the problem is that men are still expected to be traditional while women aren't
Author	ApplesauceThegod
Upvotes	236
Comments	297
Date	October 30, 2022 1:17 AM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/yh0y1s/the_problem_isnt_sex_the_problem_is_that_men_are/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/the-problem-isnt-sex-the-problem-is-that-men-are.1137379 https://theredarchive.com/post/1137379

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