Isn't it counter-intuitive for men who want sex to shame women for having sex?

gymbro718nyc2 · 2022-12-18T15:08:49+00:00

Yes, it is something called the Marx Paradox. Named after the famed philosopher Groucho Marx who once observed: "I don't want to be part of a club that would have me as a member".

In essence men are saying: "Because I'm no good, the only reason a woman would sleep with me casually without me having to pay, impress her, date her or offer her commitment, is because she is so easy that she would sleep with any man."

It never occurs to them that women are perfectly capable of making their own adult decisions and the reason she had sex with him is because she liked his look, or his humor, or maybe she was bored and horny and he happened to be arousing enough.

Naru4odo · 2022-12-18T18:30:09+00:00

It is counterintuitive, but you err, because the men who are complaining about high n count women are those that actually want meaningful relationships with women. Men who just want sex don't care about a woman's n count.

dumbbitchcas · 2022-12-18T16:34:23+00:00

“All the Women should have sex with me and only me. If they have sex with anyone else their a slut”

Deadlocked02 · 2022-12-18T15:26:29+00:00

This kinda makes it sound less like "innate preference" and more petty reactionaryism. It does kinda sound like these dudes just saying "If women acted like men and pursued me and gave me validation the way men give it to women, I wouldn't have a problem with them having sex with men"?

Nah. Men who are desired and get lots of validation from women still separate them between “one night stand material” and “relationship material”. The degree of slutshaming promoted by them varies, but that they’re going to prefer women with lower body counts is a given. And they have a lot more power to choose and have standards. This is not something you can blame on sexless men alone.

wtknight · 2022-12-18T16:33:02+00:00

It's not counterintuitive if men want there to be two categories of women available for them - promiscuous women for casual sex, and chaste women or women who have only had relationship sex with one or two past boyfriends for when these men want to settle down into a relationship.

SumhDhood · 2022-12-18T16:01:04+00:00

Yes. The short answer is yes.

They want there to be drive-thru sluts but also very chaste women "of quality" for the relationship mechanics they dream up in their heads. A fantasy where they're regarded as a strong man who handles man stuff like a man.

Then they'll cite stats about how a woman who has had more than three partners is more prone to dissatisfaction and infidelity and they'll blame her for it rather than acknowledge that weak, insecure men don't make for good mates.

Raileyx · 2022-12-18T15:10:59+00:00

Men who do that are caught between their own desires and the compulsion to mindlessly reinforce outdated gender-stereotypes, because that's all they know and accept for themselves.

There's really no sense to it at all. But what can you expect from someone who is simply drifting along in the stream of culture and ideas, without ever being able to critically examine anything for himself? Not much, honestly. Of course they don't have coherent views. It'd be a surprise if they did.

Safinated · 2022-12-18T16:14:07+00:00

No, it’s just selfish and self interested, which is intuitive

armpitpics · 2022-12-18T16:01:33+00:00

Because sexual liberation stopped midways, right where it's ok for women to have sex out of wedlock, but still inappropriate for her to do it outside a committed relationship, a freedom that men have had for much longer.

Many men crave sex and the validation that comes with it, but still separate women into boxes. They want the sluts to have sex with them and good women to commit to who haven't had sex with many other men. They then get mad when they can't fulfill both of these desires and even madder when they can't fulfill either.

Carloverguy20 · 2022-12-18T19:55:55+00:00

Plain misogyny and a double standard.

IF men have sex, they are seen as cool, players, but if a woman has sex, she's seen as a bunch of derogatory names.

saraimarsena · 2022-12-18T17:35:08+00:00

the average male wants to spend his early 20s fucking around while apparently all other girls just sit with their legs folded and wait for him. men claim that all women have sex with the same 20% of men, but seems like that’s really the world they’d love to be living in if only they had the chance …

honestly it’s so stupid that young men wanna fuck young women while simultaneously complaining about young women fucking.

Perfect_Promise_943 · 2022-12-18T15:05:14+00:00

As a man who is celibate and will only date virgins and I hate the way men use women for sex, I don’t think you are right.

I get what you mean, and why you feel like that. But I think the simpler explanation is the fact that humans often have preferences that don’t equal to ourselves. You might be short but want a tall partner. You might make a lot of money but want a partner that doesn’t make much. You might not be fit, but want a partner with a six pack. You might love being by yourself alone, but want an extrovert partner that will push you to go out and you shame the guys that are introverts like you. Either way, shaming it’s not at any point okay. However, I think it’s totally human to have preference that we might not even follow about ourselves.

SmarmyPapsmears · 2022-12-18T15:15:52+00:00

It usually seems to come less from a place of reason or logic and more just... envy and jealousy, as it's often phrased "men don't GET to sleep around like women do" or "men don't experience what it's like to have a lot of partners" or "men don't receive that sort of constant validation."

I have to earn the right to have sex with women. Women just need to open their legs. We are not the same. All of my value as a sexual partner hinges on how tall I am, how big my dick is, how valuable I am for a relationship, how fit I am.

Meanwhile an obese woman working at mcdonalds could easily get triple digit n count if she wanted.

We simply are not judged on the same metrics.

EvaViaMusic · 2022-12-18T15:06:54+00:00

It's about jealousy... and profound insecurity. They want someone with a "low body count" because they think their dicks are too small or they're not very good in bed, and they want a woman who doesn't know the difference between him and a good/well-endowed lover.

WowYouMustBeJoking · 2022-12-18T19:15:01+00:00

The way you're phrasing it, yes, it's counter-intuitive, but you're not phrasing it correctly. Of course they are angry at women, but not because of receiving attention, but because of reciprocating it or giving it to other men more than to them. They don't shame women for having sex (as a concept), they shame them for having sex with other men. Think about it, they don't mind women having sex with other women.

FlexodusPrime · 2022-12-18T21:22:18+00:00

That’s like obese people fat shaming people for eating too much

YetAnotherCommenter · 2022-12-19T01:34:02+00:00

It usually seems to come less from a place of reason or logic and more just... envy and jealousy

Yes, that's precisely where it comes from.

guarana_Jesus · 2022-12-19T11:27:01+00:00

counter-intuitive and hypocritical. It reeks of jealously

LupeDyCazari · 2022-12-18T15:54:40+00:00

It's not really hard to figure this one out.

These guys are babies.

15-25 years old with a few middle-aged dudes in their thirties here and there, but the majority of the red pillers and black pillers are barely old enough to legally drink, and with a mass of psychological disorders plaguing them, they don't really have the emotional experience nor have they spent that much time with women to know what they themselves want.

Let's be real here, bro. All of these boys want a beautiful, fit, healthy woman with a high sex drive. You're telling me a woman like that isn't going to want sex?

She should be saving herself for the red piller and the black piller instead?

Then there's the fact that these children are afraid that the more men a woman sleeps with, the higher the chances of those guys having a big cock, being tall, muscular etc, and cock inferiority is real. There are dudes who legit are afraid their average-sized cocks or smaller than average cocks will never be able to make a woman enjoy sex, after she has had sex with a gigantic cock.

They are just little kids, dude. I don't take them seriously at all. Once they find themselves a girlfriend, they are going to drop out of the red/black pill.

Apprehensive_Cut_146 · 2022-12-18T15:25:57+00:00

Men will always have contrary opinions on women and will try to difuse their sxuality to match their emotional or carnal desire. Women do just the same. Nothing new

NotARussianBot1984 · 2022-12-18T17:17:54+00:00

2 recent comments of mine that relate.

TlDr, men who aren't apart of the top 20 slut shame. In monogamy society, those men would be married by 25. They struggle in hook up culture.

Imho men view women who are sluts for only chads as losing value, since when that average girl tries to settle down with average guy, she will compare him to previous Chads, making for a toxic relationship.

And why? As I said, less slut shaming. It's a free country, fuck whoever you want, but men will respond to it.

Btw I'm dating a girl that's sleeps around with not just chads.

Of course, but not exactly. There are many Chads out there that when it comes to their career are losers. I'm not jealous of the highschool drop out, and I'm not really jealous of his ability to get women, it's more that im like "really girl? This is who you want? So if I want to fuck women like you, I should drop out of school and sell coke? Hard pass"

Id think resentment towards women incentizing traits that can't be changed or are negative traits to foster, more so than jealousy if I had to guess

athlete2biz · 2022-12-18T20:01:25+00:00

Nah.

I am just straight up turned off by promiscuous woman.

I have no troubles getting laid or getting a relationship.

theres plenty of woman who are attractive, friendly and not promiscuous.

SuperCrazy07 · 2022-12-18T18:16:59+00:00

I think it’s similar to how some women will have sex with a hot guy and simultaneously look for a stable guy to ltr.

Most guys like slutty girls. Very few men irl are walking around slut shaming. They just want to marry a girl that didn’t bang a different dude every week.

This place tends to attract guys who aren’t having good experiences with women. So, your question will probably get an interesting perspective from their point of view, but I don’t think it’s the common one outside of Reddit.

novelgrowth22 · 2022-12-18T20:47:30+00:00

Men who shame women are usually are not attractive to women anyways so it's not really counter-intuitive

VastlyVainVanity · 2022-12-18T20:41:35+00:00

I'm a guy who stays celibate when not in a relationship, but I don't see that as conter-intuitive tbh.

Guys like that see sluts as women who are "for recreational purpose only", as they themselves say. But they also want to eventually be in a LTR, and so it is good for them that society sees promiscuous women as disgusting, because that will make it so not every single woman goes around fucking every guy she can.

A slut will keep being a slut regardless of slut-shaming. If anything, slut-shaming empowers sluts, makes them feel like they're some sort of counter-culture because they're fucking around (lol).

Ok-Cupcake-2854 · 2022-12-19T08:37:15+00:00

well when women tend to only have sex with men more attractive than them its annoying

HighestTierMaslow · 2022-12-20T06:15:55+00:00

It is. It also shows the man is selfish and misogynistic. It was always an instant deal breaker for me when I was younger.

DryOutcome3407 · 2022-12-18T19:51:37+00:00

Men don't want sex, he want a good relationship with sex. A high N women provides not a good relationship prospects.

odd_cloud · 2022-12-18T15:35:15+00:00

Some counterintuitive things make sense if you think about them and place them in the context.

Pavi2 · 2022-12-18T18:37:05+00:00

Idk any self respecting man that actually thinks this way they either find it repulsive AF and look for decent women or they reinforce this idea and sleep with sluts.

Wide-Illustrator2906 · 2022-12-18T21:32:59+00:00

Whether men shame women for having sex or not it has absolutely zero effect on their ability to have sex. We live in the most sexually liberated time in female sexual history where slut shaming women is widely condemned by society and we still have the highest percentage of male sexlessness in human history.

soundsshemade · 2022-12-18T21:53:43+00:00

What if we just say, "yea so what?"

Is that the whole thread. You're not allowed to police others preferences. Hypocrites can want hypocritical things and if they are capable of pulling it off then so be it.

Is the point of this thread to get those guys to "quiet down" about that preference? Because while that is logical, its unnecessary to ask for. And it becomes sour grapes on your end that you're upset that people can complain about something you don't think they should complain about. If they can accomplish their goal, contend with that, and if they can't, then they're not worth the discussion as they're just dreaming.

The ones who can pull it off are a valid topic. But it doesn't slide nicely into, "well then you should cut it out because it's hypocritical and shallow."

They'll say, "oh well, tell the girls in line."

_here_ok · 2022-12-18T22:14:35+00:00

I see both sexes do it, it's just a constant cycle of slut shaming. Only difference being the social group.

Numerous_Ad_1555 · 2022-12-18T22:26:34+00:00

Nah, men want sex in general but see a high body count as a red flag in a long term partner, you can have casual sex and still be a little bit modest about it

RGL137 · 2022-12-18T22:36:56+00:00

I’m sure there’s some hypocritical men out there with this view but, I think most men separate the women into different categories. “Hoes” for fun, less promiscuous girls for real relationships. That’s always have I’ve treated it, anyway.

Kobe_curry24 · 2022-12-18T22:55:11+00:00

Everything is better in moderation even whores plus it’s never the whores men are madd about at the basic structure A whore will fuck anyone it’s in the definition it’s the stingy women that man can’t have Lmfaoooo that’s really the problem , and to answer the question it’s definitely a no cause we’re living the era of whores Lmfaoooo and things are no better

BothWaysItGoes · 2022-12-19T00:14:53+00:00

What is counter-intuitive about it? You have written 5 paragraphs and none of them relate to the title of your post. Can you try to frame your position in a clear way, so we don’t have to second-guess the implications buried in your text?

gopher_glitz · 2022-12-18T20:03:13+00:00

Is it counter intuitive for a women to want men to pay for things but not want a man who's payed for women?

The entire reason men are adverse to investing in a woman that sleeps around is because of the deep DNA of parental uncertainty. Women are uncuckable, for men, it's about the worst biological/genetic outcome.

flakybottom · 2022-12-18T18:57:20+00:00

Well because sex for women is easy. It would be the same as chastising a dude for watching porn all day.

gmahogany · 2022-12-18T19:04:54+00:00

It’s only a paradox if you think sex is the same for men and women. If you think it’s different, a guy can have casual sex but only want to settle down with someone who doesn’t have a history of casual sex.

I’m not into shaming anyone for anything they do, and if a girl didn’t want to be with me because of my sexual past, I’d respect that. If a girl had my sexual history, I’d be hesitant to be serious with her. Not that it could never happen, but I don’t see a man and a woman having casual sex as the same thing at all.

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LogicianMission22 · 2022-12-18T21:45:26+00:00

I like what u/gymbro718nyc2 said about the Marx paradox, but there is also another theory which is basically in line with TRP.

Essentially, if you believe that the pursuit of sex is like a game, in which men win and women lose, then it makes sense. What do men often describe the pursuit of sex as? Often, it’s described as hunting, where the man is the predator and the women is the prey. Under this belief, men are supposed to pursue (hunt) and women are supposed to deny and be chaste (run away). This is also like the lock key analogy that TRP uses. Men are supposed to unlock as much as they can, and women are supposed to keep out as many keys as possible. So while an even more sex positive culture might have more sex (even for the average man), a lot of men wouldn’t feel like they are winning (at least not as much). Essentially, the chase is the most important aspect to a lot of men.

yelloestone989 · 2022-12-18T22:05:18+00:00

Nah, the men who women are having casual sex with are in the top 20%, so unless he is in the top 20% himself he does not contradict himself.

WilliamWyattD · 2022-12-19T01:21:51+00:00

We all have a deep intuition, likely biologically grounded, that someone can have had too many sexual partners. This applies to both men and women, it is just that our thresholds are different for the genders. No girl found Wilt Chamberlain more attractive for allegedly having had 10,000 women.

As for men and their attitude towards female promiscuity, there is not really a paradox. There is a lack of understanding where their interests truly lie, and of communal systemic thinking. Ideally, men would like women to be sexually restrained with everyone else, and wanton with only him. They would like a world where most men wait for sex, but they have casual and novel sex on tap. No paradox there. It is an entirely coherent IDEAL.

Now, in reality, average men were willing to subordinate their intuitive disgust at female promiscuity to their desire for sexual novelty when they thought the sexual revolution meant something like a free-use fantasy for average guys. However, it turns out that when you turn off female sexual restraint, it doesn't mean you turn up their attraction to average Joes. Rather, they will effectively share higher mate value men until they are forced to subordinate their own purely sexual desires to other considerations. Given how things shook out, average guys are now wondering whether suppressing anti-promiscuous instincts in return for greater sexual freedom was as wonderful an idea as they had thought.

OFC the real truth in all of this is that sexual restraint is good for all of us, male and female alike. Even if the sexual revolution had turned life into a porn movie for average guys, it still would have ultimately been bad for them. Probably worse. Too many sexual partners and trying to pretend that sex can be entirely casual hurts everyone, in both different and similar ways. Now, what an more ideal sexually restrained society might look like with modern technology might be a bit different than what was true in the past. There is no going back exactly; but it is clear that the future path towards completely unconstrained sexuality is not a healthy one for anybody.

PeaAffectionate5667 · 2022-12-19T02:15:37+00:00

Interesting point - but it’s (generally speaking) MUCH easier for women & I appreciate why that might make men feel envious.

Women sometimes complain that they feel envious of men having other advantages in life, don’t they?

Context: I’ve got a pretty high N-count, I’m a dude. One of my FWB has a similarly high one. Even she once stated she’s completely understanding that it was a lot harder for me to get so many notchs on my bedpost compared to her.

lovestocomment · 2022-12-19T06:51:52+00:00

You seem to get it mixed up. Guys who want casual sex do not shame women who have or want to have casual sex. They actually prefer women who are promiscuous in nature. Some of those guys are the biggest feminist you'll find, why it's simple. The more promiscuous women become the more access to pussy they have. No, obliviously they don't want kids, relationship or monogamy.

Men who shame women for living a promiscuous life cares about women when it comes to Thier dignity, ability to bond, ability to start families and to prevent them from spreading the thot ideology to younger women.

There was a point when a man had to actually put effort into getting laid, even if he's very attractive. Why? Because women understand what sex was in relation to them and men. Sex for have way more risks and consequences, both physically and mentally. Men not so much... So they kept Thier legs closed until a man proves himself.

So, it depends on the man and how much he cares about women.

2022-12-19T19:04:36+00:00

This is the biggest contradiction in redpill theory, imo. If men want sex and sex exalts them while debasing women, so women shouldn't have sex and men should, who are they getting sex from? Other men? 90% of people are straight. So they eff themselves by preaching to women that they shouldn't have sex until marriage. RP gurus should tell women to have sex with incels and guys withut muscles or money. But they don't -- they lie to 20's and 30s men and tell them they will have 18-yo's throwing themselves at them when they're 45 as long as they're fit and rich. Stats show this is not the case (and who would want a partner only with them for money, anyway? That is bound to end in resentment). So while RP gurus hate women, they might hate men even more.

2022-12-20T18:14:47+00:00

Yes, which is why I don't do it.

Title	Isn't it counter-intuitive for men who want sex to shame women for having sex?
Author	Gravel_Roads
Upvotes	66
Comments	253
Date	December 18, 2022 2:56 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/zp0ep6/isnt_it_counterintuitive_for_men_who_want_sex_to/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/isnt-it-counter-intuitive-for-men-who-want-sex-to.1143443 https://theredarchive.com/post/1143443

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