Question for men who want "traditional" gender norms

mrsmariekje · 2023-12-07T23:44:55+00:00

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SlowEffective8146 · 2023-12-07T21:12:35+00:00

How is this a good faith question when you just jump to immediate extremism? (this is called a straw man) You can be a trad wife without being a slave, or completely covering your face, or not having voting rights lmfaoooo

No-You7911 · 2023-12-08T04:05:35+00:00

Those are extreme examples. Most men would just be happy to be appreciated and respected.

abaxeron · 2023-12-07T23:55:05+00:00

When you watch The Handmaid's Tail

"Tale"; published in 1985, based (in its most shock-horror parts) on communist Romania. Has nothing to do with European traditions of marriage and family.

Polygamist groups like the FLDS

Founded in 1913; is not based on European traditions of marriage and family.

The Kingston Clan

Established in 1977.

or you read news articles about how things are in Iran

Raised and trained the first woman to be awarded Fields medal. So much for a country where women supposedly can't study.

Saudi Arabia

Last time I checked, one of the only 4 countries in the world where adjusted gender pay gap is reversed in favor of women (don't quote me on this).

is that what you want society to be like?

Do I want society to be like a caricature made up by politicians to justify invasions and bombing other nations into Stone Age for stepping out of line, sprinkled with feminist propaganda, made up to justify giving even more unearned money and privileges to women? - No, definitely no.

If not, how do they differ from your aspirational society?

Not to overwhelm you, I'll just present my very own small checklist of absolute urgency (i.e. what, and in what order, would I change, given the limited supply of genie lamps).

The government shall pass no system of law allowing:

segregated or sex-exclusive inmate accomodation, forced labor (including military service), and sports events, but banning segregated workplaces and public schools and services at the same time;

people with lifetime immunity to war-time draft to constitute majority of voters for supreme military commander;

breadwinner spouses to have their surplus value reassigned against their will in support of single, divorced (not from them), and/or unrelated people at the expense of their own spouses, children, and relatives. No lawmaking or court decision can be made on assumption that generational prosperity of families is undesirable immoral evil;

financially or legally punishing a former breadwinner spouse for being abandoned at no fault.

Spyro7x3 · 2023-12-09T08:41:39+00:00

Hand Maids Tale is propaganda so not what society would look like in reality women were happier in the past because natural systems are always better.

It wouldn't look like Iran because our society has Christian roots it would look like well the past that we already had but probably better now that we know things like feminism don't work we have the knowledge to know we're on the right track

montana-blue · 2023-12-08T01:33:33+00:00

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SupposedlySapiens · 2023-12-08T01:12:23+00:00

Why does the simple word “traditional” cause so many people to absolutely lose their minds and imagine the most extreme possible outcomes?

gopher_glitz · 2023-12-07T23:13:43+00:00

Why do I have to always drive? Why am I the one always putting together all the furniture, maintaining the cars, roof, gutters, hvac, lawn? Why am I always the one expected to install the cameras, lights, stereo, mount the TV etc etc? Pay for the dates?

Oh right....because I'm a man. If I gotta do 'man' shit women gotta do women shit.

montana-blue · 2023-12-07T21:43:46+00:00

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LowCreddit · 2023-12-07T22:02:52+00:00

Those fantasies are meant to disturb you. I grew up in a community that practices women staying home even today. There are problems in that community, as there are in every community, but none of them stem from women staying home.

The Handmaid's Tale is written like typical softcore feminist porn written by women who talk about how awful it would be to be completely dominated like that and then giggle to their other friend's about how hot that situation would be. A society like that has never existed.

The LDS and other polygamy cults are an embarrassment. I think that marrying that young should be highly exceptional and not the rule. I also don't like polygamy. It has most of the same problems that our current society has, if not worse.

The norm should be that women marry in their early 20's to a man around their age. They should stay home to raise the children until elementary and then maybe work jobs that get out before school does. This is also assuming that there are schools in the area that are healthy.

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montana-blue · 2023-12-08T01:20:58+00:00

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AceOfSpadesGymBro3 · 2023-12-07T21:29:33+00:00

Here is a little tip for you (just the tip): I sincerely believe that most repressive societies are the result of a bunch of loser men who can't get laid. Any Muslim repressive regime, any Christian fundamentalist cult, even North Korea. All cause these guys couldn't get some pussy. Sad!

I think most redpillers would love to live in those distopias because they will finally feel like they have power over women and will show them their place.

Me, personally? I absolutely enjoy today's freedom and general promiscuity of people yet I still don't think everyone is having ENOUGH sex or at least not enough GOOD sex. Unfortunately, a lot of young women seem to be influenced by violent porn that normalizes mistreatment of women.

TheLonerCoder · 2023-12-07T23:15:21+00:00

Pretty sure most people want Gender roles but just aren't conservative extremists.. Only on the internet is it controversial lol

Lovers691 · 2023-12-08T00:14:40+00:00

Does polygamy disturb you or just those groups specifically?

apresonly · 2023-12-07T20:28:18+00:00

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montana-blue · 2023-12-07T23:41:00+00:00

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Tywinlol · 2023-12-07T23:07:01+00:00

Okay lets keep Handmaid's Tail separate from Iran and S. Arabia. Tail is an insane, ridiculous, brain-dead feminist nonsense. I'am big lover of fiction in general, historical fiction, sci-fi and fantasy, and HT is absolutely horrible when it comes down to realism and will not be able to function as society in real world. In addition it was incredibly boring.

Now I have never been to Iran or S. Arabia but Im sure that they have some problems just like any country. Like all countries they fail to live up to their ideals, but they are not some evil, dystopian nightmares. Those countries are different in terms of values and culture from us, but lets not pretend like they some kind of monsters. They have different social contract that emphasizes social responsibility and stability over individual satisfaction, which is fairly common across the non-Western world. This contract is build in both cases on their interpretation of Islam and their historical legacy, which is much greater then that of US I might add. They restrict individual liberty in the name of what they perceive as societal good, but that goes for men as well as women. I dont want to go into details as my knowledge of those countries is second hand, and while I have studied Iran in some detail and I dont feel comfortable debating virtues of its system, Im Ukrainian who lives in CA and is a US citizen, I would leave it to those who have greater knowledge then I. I will only say that there is give and it is unfair to portray women of Iran as slaves of men with zero rights that is just not the case. They can vote, gain education, employment and so on. They are limited in terms of dress code and in few other ways, but they are nothing like handmaidens.

As for my own personal preferences, I think society needs to find balance between personal liberty and responsibility. I dont have a problem with society encouraging women and men to live traditional lifestyle, as it is beneficial to the society and individual, but it should be done, preferably, with consent of the majority, with some safeguards in place against potential abuse. Ultimately, we are not Iran what works for one state will not necessarily work for another even if there is a desire to copy that system, and Im not saying that is what conservatives here want. We have to find our own way.

AbsolutelyNobody0 · 2023-12-08T06:07:41+00:00

I'm not a woman, so I don't watch slave porn. It's says more about women with how much they say it's awful, but love seeing it...

Your view of traditional is completely based on BS propoganda. Also, traditional doesn't exclude women working. Poor women have always worked throughout all of history. Before technology advanced, even washing clothes was work. Traditional gender norms are primarily about division of labor. Generally speaking, men and women are more suited to certain things. Are there some lesbians out there who want to go become a lawyer or something? Sure, but they can't speak for the vast majority of women.

'Women's Movements' were founded by a minority of women who were lebians that wanted some purpose in life. They dragged the rest of the women into something they didn't sign up for.

Fun_Push7168 · 2023-12-07T23:14:02+00:00

No. The government has no fucking business in personal choices and freedoms.

Nobody should marry until 25...but that's just advice.

Ideally;

Basically as long as I can afford it she shouldnt have to work outside the home but if she wants to fine. Ideally she would not while the children are young.

Regardless it should be fairly rare that I'm inside the house before dark unless I'm working on it...I've got plenty to do and if I don't then im valuable within the community...there are outside things that need done by groups of men like me and we help each other out.

Which places her mainly doing domestic things and she's also valuable in the community. There are things that need done by groups of women or they can provide each other breaks but either way they can also help each other out.

In reality....I'm not pushy about any of it because again I don't have any business making other people's personal choices. Just don't push them on me.

To include, Don't complain I don't do laundry when I just came in from splitting wood or that I was helping the neighbor run fence, when the only reason our yard is not a forest is because they helped me clear the land.

There's a lot to be said for some of the things women tend to lean into more naturally and some of the things men tend to lean into more naturally. So I like when we can both appreciate that.

I'm also pretty flexible though so if it's outside my ideal, meh, its cool.

montana-blue · 2023-12-08T04:22:10+00:00

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Barely-moral · 2023-12-07T23:13:48+00:00

Question for men who want "traditional" gender norms

Norms. Not laws.

I have a good faith question for men who believe society should go back to women marrying young and primarily being child bearers, wives, and mothers.

This contradicts the title. Gender norms. Not society turning back through laws.

When you watch The Handmaid's Tail, or exposés about Polygamist groups like the FLDS or The Kingston Clan, or you read news articles about how things are in Iran and Saudi Arabia - is that what you want society to be like?

No. I want gender norms for my life and I don't give a single fuck about what happens to society.

When I think of these societies as a woman, it disturbs me to my core

Ok...

and I view them as the ultimate goal of returning to traditional gender norms.

Your view is wrong.

Do you view these societies as aspirational?

Nah.

If not, how do they differ from your aspirational society?

I don't have an aspirational society. I want gender norms for my relationship/family and everyone else can do whatever they want/can and I will not care.

boom-wham-slam · 2023-12-08T00:28:41+00:00

There's many ways to skin a cat. Anything more traditional is better than this.

Crimson-Pilled · 2023-12-08T11:58:04+00:00

Yes. Gilead and countries under Sharia law are close to my ideal and admirable. My only issue with Gilead is the raping - women who are under the supervision of their fathers and a traditional society will be guided into fertile relationships they naturally enjoy.

Steakman1 · 2023-12-07T21:56:20+00:00

I don’t know how extreme Saudi Arabia and Iran go. I know they aren’t as bad as Afghanistan for example. But if they’re still requiring women to wear burkas, then I think we’re well past the need for that. And whether there was ever a need for that could easily be argued. I believe in Saudi Arabia they just require men and women to dress modestly though in that regard. But I could be wrong on that. Which I’m not sure how I feel about it being government mandated. But I wouldn’t mind a cultural standard like that. I also don’t believe people should be jailed for being homosexual. And I also don’t believe sex needs to be exclusive to marriage. I’m not sure how young you’re talking about when you say marrying young. But if you’re implying child marriage or marrying as soon as you turn 18, I don’t agree with that either. Overall no, I do not agree with the Middle East’s treatment of women.

A simplified version of my aspirational society is children that aren’t being raised by public school systems and daycare. Public schools being government funded means that the government is essentially raising children in this scenario. But it is very hard to accomplish children not being raised by the government when both the mother and father are heavily career oriented. Both parents can’t not work for obvious reasons. And I believe in general that women are much better than men at being the primary raiser of children.

Basically when I choose the mother of my future children, part of that decision is based on the values she holds that I would want her instilling into our children as well. It isn’t so I can simply use her body as a vessel to birth our children and then have strangers be the ones to primarily raise them and instill most of their values. If her and I end up both having big careers, then we better at least be sending the kids to private school.

I think more traditional gender norms are optimal for raising children when it is economically possible. If a couple doesn’t ever want to have kids, then I don’t think there is much of a point in gender norms.

Anti_Thing · 2023-12-11T07:14:31+00:00

I don't want society to be like that.

I don't view such societies as aspirational. I'm not exactly sure what you mean by "aspirational society". I don't believe in utopianism & I tend to be skeptical of radical plans to reshape society. I have a personal preference for women marrying young & having children but I don't support abuse of power. I believe that society should go back to women marrying young and primarily being child bearers, wives, and mothers, but without the abuse or lack of freedom we see in The Handmaid's Tale, polygamist groups like the FLDS or The Kingston Clan, or Iran or Saudi Arabia.

Title	Question for men who want "traditional" gender norms
Author	montana-blue
Upvotes	19
Comments	267
Date	December 7, 2023 8:12 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/18d4dcf/question_for_men_who_want_traditional_gender_norms/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/question-for-men-who-want-traditional-gender-norms.1240281 https://theredarchive.com/post/1240281

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