Do you that marriage is largely obsolete today now that social norms have been largely relaxed?

bluestjuice · 2023-12-31T20:46:49+00:00

Hm, your post isn’t all that accurate. Having an illegitimate child was a problem historically but didn’t typically end in burning at the stake.

More relevantly, the legal aspect of marriage is the oldest aspect for many of the reasons you mention. Marriage traditionally has facilitated the formation of a new legal unit and normalized the transfer of property through familial lines with reference to these legal units. Children act as both property and sometimes agents according to these paradigms, depending on their age and gender. But the business aspects, i.e. the formalization of property partnerships, are the oldest core element of marriage and this is the element the state does have an interest in (as it does with other business partnerships and property questions).

It’s not surprising given this that the aspects of modern marriage that retain the most functional clout are the legal ones that establish the marital couple as a formal entity, even though romanticism has obscured this as the purpose of marriage vs. other types of romantic pairing. Even couples with rather progressive views on things like sexual exclusivity or gender roles still frequently choose marriage as the vehicle for their relationship due to the benefits they receive in terms of tax perks, inheritance rights, and formal next-of-kin designations that open up access to things like insurance and healthcare decision-making power. To the extent that these legal benefits continue to be advantageous, marriage will likely continue to be chosen by many couples despite shifts in social beliefs and norms.

I should add that we do see an uptick in couples eschewing marriage, and my hypothesis is that much of that relates to an increase in the population at low wealth levels, for whom the legal benefits of marriage are less likely to feel relevant. For these demographics I do think that the relaxation in social norms has allowed them to opt out of a legal system that does not seem to provide them many other advantages.

MikeArrow · 2023-12-31T20:47:09+00:00

What I don't understand about marriage is spending tens of thousands of dollars on a huge ceremony when that money should be used for a house payment or something practical.

grillopie · 2023-12-31T20:37:38+00:00

The legal aspect is the only important aspect. I dont see how its bunk. The government isnt entering your bedroom, thats a crazy take. You voluntarily enter into this contract. No one forces you to.

I agree you should be viewing this in a calculating way, its not a romantic decision, its a life decision.

Of course it has a place though lol. Its a legal partnership. If you want to enter into it, you get all the benefits and drawbacks of an equal partnership. Both people no longer need to focus on money. You are protected if you do things like support your spouse through school so they can eventually step into a breadwinner role, or you can make career sacrifices to take care of kids and spare tons of childcare money, and you can have peace of mind knowing if the relationship ends, you wont be left high and dry.

Soloandthewookiee · 2023-12-31T20:59:35+00:00

Declaring the "legal aspect" of marriage to be bunk doesn't actually make it so.

Marriage still has tangible benefits and many people appreciate the symbolism as well. Since it's now more socially acceptable not to get married, you don't have to partake if you don't want to. It seems like a pretty perfect system.

spanglesandbambi · 2023-12-31T20:31:08+00:00

I wouldn't say there are no legal reasons for us wanting children an sharing property being married was an easy way to tie everything together. We eloped so it wsnt a gaint coat thing.

I think less marriage will happen in the future though as we will have a generation of children raised by unmarried couples. This will demonstrate marriage isn't needed for a secure family unit.

baiser_vole · 2023-12-31T20:35:08+00:00

In Western history, the concept of women being completely confined to their homes is not a common cultural or legal norm across all societies. However, the extent of women's participation in public life and their freedom of movement has varied significantly over time and by region.

According to ChatGPT

Ancient Greece and Victorian England, sure.

WilliamWyattD · 2023-12-31T21:07:38+00:00

Whether marriage will become obsolete is an open question. What won't be obsolete were the issues that widespread monogamous marriage addresses, including keeping male sexual inequality at a manageable level, providing stable homes for children, providing male and female role models to children, socializing men (and to a lesser degree women), and so on.

So whatever paradigm you replace it with has to also contend with these eternal facts of life. And society definitely has an interest in the aggregate of these otherwise personal decisions. It's great to say that the government should be out of your bedroom; but this only works so long as the sum of everyone's personal sexual decisions falls within a certain range that is conducive to a healthy society. So there always has to be some community involvement in or influence on our mating and dating choices. Question is what the best way to protect the public interests here is.

Gitsumrestmf · 2023-12-31T20:43:23+00:00

government should stay out of our lives and our bedrooms

Sure.

you could not reproduce without getting married, or else you were burned at the stake.

Where? When?

Women literally were not allowed to leave their homes

Where? When?

you had to go through the whole courting process and talking to her father and getting permission

In select cases, in certain times, in certain countries. That was not ever the norm accross the world, as you imply.

people regularly have kids before marriage and have sex before marriage,

Which destroyed families, destroyed relationships and is destroying entire western society.

Seen the birth-rates in the first-world lately? We are a dying breed.

Safinated · 2023-12-31T22:14:57+00:00

Since most people do it, no

wtknight · 2023-12-31T23:07:57+00:00

Marriage still allows for certain tax benefits.

It also allows phenomena like fiancé visas to exist.

So basically, it's kind of a way to show the government that one is contractually bound in a financial sense to another person, and that therefore one's relationship is more "serious" than a couple that has chosen not to do this.

McTitty3000 · 2023-12-31T23:55:29+00:00

I think it's fair to say that, I do think marriage is still the best and most secure way for raising children but at the end of the day it's not as if the kids these days haven't seen their parents not together so there's a chance that that will continue.

We've seen all kinds of marriages succeed and fail so there is no foolproof method, I probably wouldn't have even married my wife had she not ticked the boxes as well as she did and even then I still had to have my lawyer draw up some stuff for me, because it is a business decision lol

ArtifactFan65 · 2024-01-01T02:36:28+00:00

The purpose of marriage is to trap the husband in the relationship to make sure he keeps providing resources for the wife and kids.

Willow-girl · 2024-01-01T14:20:05+00:00

Problems arise when children enter the picture. Unmarried parents are less likely to stay together than married ones, and being raised in a single-parent home, especially one with mom's boyfriend/dad's girlfriend, puts children at heightened risk for all sorts of ills.

LaPrimaVera · 2023-12-31T21:31:37+00:00

Married women suffer less abuse from their partner than unmarried women.

Married women are less likely to suffer violent crime in general than unmarried women.

Children from married parents suffer less child abuse than those from unmarried parents.

Children from married households are more likely to live longer.

Both sexes are happier, live longer, and have better mental health if they get married and stay married.

SupposedlySapiens · 2023-12-31T23:00:31+00:00

OP really needs a history lesson

poopy_head4 · 2023-12-31T20:56:56+00:00

a woman remaining unmarried looks bad. it implies that the guy doesnt like her enough to tie the knot

also i think youre a bit confused on how marriage was in the "past." marriages have existed in pretty much every culture i can think of, including civilizations and tribes. its certainly not always just a business transaction

januaryphilosopher · 2023-12-31T21:20:45+00:00

There is still a social meaning of marriage, but that social meaning is changing. You're just not seen as "together" with your partner in the same sense if you're not married, and families will usually be a lot more willing to merge if you're married. Friends, employers and even civic institutions will treat you differently if you're married versus not, even if they claim otherwise the difference is noticeable. And that's not to speak of the great personal significance of the promises you make and how that affects a relationship, or how marriage gives some legal security that can help those who want to share assets or habe children. Of course, some people don't want to become one unit with their partner and might not want to get married, but that doesn't mean it's meaningless. People around the world are still fighting for the chance to get married, don't forget that.

AnalSexIsTheBest34 · 2023-12-31T21:45:41+00:00

So I personally don't think that marriage should be a legal institution at all, I really don't think that a person's relationship has any business to do with the government.

It is the government's business when a relationship forms a new permanent social unit that relates differently to the sociopolitical and ecomonic surrounding than single individuals.

I think the government should stay out of our lives and our bedrooms

Our bedrooms, sure, but our lives? That's impossible. If you are a participating in a sociopolitical organisation, you are bound by its rules and regulations.

So the legal aspect of marriage is pretty much bunk and has always been, but I'm talking more specifically about the social aspect of it

The legal aspect is pretty much the only reason why I'd ever consider marriage. If there are no benefits to legally forming a new social unit, then I don't care about the social aspects at all. I am completely fine with living in an extramarital relationship if getting married will only restrict us both and bring little actual benefit on the economic and legal front, regardless of the social condemnation.

Back in the day, you could not reproduce without getting married, or else you were burned at the stake.

You didn't burn at stake, that was for heretics only. You would just be accused of fornication and your children would be removed from any inheritance.

It's kind of gross how we've Twisted it into being about romance these days when the origins of marriage are so cold and superficial.

It isn't gross and twisted, the times changed and women have become active politico-economic participants in the society, thus far less dependent on fathers and husbands to have any resources. I'd say that's a good thing.

But society and general has become a lot more socially liberal since then, and people regularly have kids before marriage and have sex before marriage, so from a social standpoint unless you're very religious, I just don't think that marriage really means anything these days.

From the social standpoint, I agree with you. If the marriage doesn't confer any significant economic and legal benefits, it is simply meaningless to waste money getting legally tied to a person you could have been with without the law binding you to them. You also spare expenses on the divorce if it happens.

It's certainly doesn't give your relationship more legitimacy, whatever that means.

I'd say most people in the West still believe getting married makes your relationship somehow more legitimate than remaining an extramarital couple, even if there are no actual legal changes. It's pretty dumb, if you ask me.

do you think that marriage has a place in society today, or do you think that through our more liberal social ideas that we've kind of made marriage obsolete?

Not at all, marriage still has a place in our society, but only if the governments increase the benefits of being in one. As is, marriage is just some paperwork that makes people feel more special in their relationships.

ladyindev · 2023-12-31T22:46:29+00:00

It's kind of an odd question. How can something be obsolete if it's by definition...not obsolete?

Plenty of people still get married and value marriage. Those people should be able to get married, if they want to.

I'm very leftist, but I personally started dating seriously specifically to find a husband. I totally support alternative forms of living, but unfortunately, the data still shows worse outcomes for unmarried couples and for the children to those couples. Even cohabitation before engagement still has negative outcomes in a lot of the data we have on divorce. I find marriage still very relevant for building families together in the most financially secure ways. Also, whether or not anyone doesn't like it, there are still a lot of legal, economic, and tax benefits to marriage. I also like the symbolic commitment to one another. That has a psychological impact on how couples view one another and their relationship that I don't think is as easy to replicate without that major, public declaration of commitment. I'd want to get married even if I didn't want to have a kid at all, and it is a requirement for me right now to have a baby.

I think if the data showed similar outcomes more overwhelmingly and consistently and being in a civil union had the same benefits as marriage, perhaps I'd feel less inclined to pursue that path. But that's not the world we live in, not even now, so personally, I made it clear from the first couple dates with men that it's what I was looking for. My bf and I are pretty close to being engaged and I'm excited about it. However, even if the reality wasn't what it was, I would still look at gf/bf relationships as different for me from whatever other more public declaration of combining lives together for building a family. I want that level of commitment and bond with my partner, specifically if we are building a family together - with or without kids, but especially with them.

I hear your feelings though. When I was young, I used to be against marriage (and kids) for myself because of its objectifying history for women. I support anyone in choosing not to get married because of its history. However, there did come a point where I had to develop a comfort in living with contradiction. As a socialist feminist and atheist, I could try to rip every single aspect of life down to try and remove myself from the problematic structures that govern my life, and I would still fail. I simply don't have the energy to make every aspect of my life a political statement. The personal is political, and I also have to choose what brings me happiness, comfort, and peace as well. I do what I can, for sure, but I also have to live and make decisions that seem the most logical for my own best outcomes.

Also, people have always recaptured structures and redefined them for themselves, as they make peace with the reality around them and maintain their political and moral convictions at the same time. Things often have to be redefined and reshaped or significantly reformed, even if your ultimate end is its abolition. To even be American itself requires a significant amount of reformation. I am not about to go campaigning to destroy the nation tomorrow just because we have done and still do horrible things. The founding of this country is built on terror, slavery, genocide, and destruction. I'm not going to leave the country just because of that, but I would understand someone else who makes that decision. I try to be active among the people who aim to push for more progressive narratives, fight for a more equitable world, and make our systems better for people. This is also how I view marriage - horrible history that I don't support, but it doesn't have to be that way today and/or in my relationship. Changing marriage to include romance is extremely important. Most people will get married, and it's better to add that component than not to, as it may lend to more emphasis on choice, freedom, or even justify delayed marriage.

I do share your logic on certain things like religion that can at first seem less objectively significant to people's material realities. But even though I am an atheist, I'm intelligent enough and empathetic enough to understand the psychological and social realities that can be significantly impacted by religion and spirituality. So whereas I may want an end to the antiquated worship of imaginary beings, I also would support movements that reduce harmful, overly conservative interpretations and practices within religious communities because that will make an enormous impact on many people who will follow those faiths whether I like it or not.

So, balance.

You develop a way of accepting what you can't change, accepting the decisions that you need and want to make for your best outcomes, while also choosing to leave some things on the table to take your moral stands. Most normal people can't and won't ever remove ourselves completely from structures with horrible histories. Being American itself is a doozy. We definitely should take our stands where we can, but I personally don't think marriage itself is a worthy stand for me anymore. It has been reshaped so drastically in the West that I don't personally have a significant enough issue with the institution itself, in the Western world, even if I can still criticize issues for women who do marry.

I'm actually a little concerned with a trend in not marrying among certain socio-economic groups now, as I care about the economic and social impacts on marginalized people. We've started to see a growing class divide in who marries and who doesn't now - more educated women are both most likely to get married and least likely to get divorced. This concerns me, even though I don't want to praise the nuclear married family as the end all. This gap likely has real consequences for transfer and building of wealth, outcomes for children, maybe even negative outcomes for women as well. Nuance is important if you care about seeing the whole picture. Yes, be mad about oppressive histories 100%, but you also have to have your eyes on the multiple directions and turns seemingly good outcomes can have on society. For example, if marriage is one of the primary ways that most people will build intergenerational wealth and secure comfortable lives for their children, and it seems that less educated women are marrying less and divorcing more, then we have a slew of problems that could get worse if this trend continues or worsens. Less educated women are more likely to be lower-income. Single mothers having children outside of marriage or who are divorced are also more likely to be low-income. Being low-income has a significant impact on children's psychological development, safety, educational opportunities. Being low income also has a higher correlation with domestic violence / abuse. Being low income and a single mother also makes things like daycare (which is expenssssivvveee) difficult to afford, especially on top of attempts to further education for higher paying jobs, etc. Even just buying a house has become significantly more expensive, not to mention the cost of an education. My parents climbed their way out of poverty together and being married helped my mom afford graduate school comfortably, for example. If marriage becomes less and less accessible for uneducated and low-income women, there could likely be economic, social, and safety impacts as a domino effect around that reality.

Just food for thought - it's not just about what is acceptable socially. Yes, that's great! But what are the material outcomes that we see happening as well.

RevolutionaryJob7908 · 2023-12-31T20:52:56+00:00

Absolute merit in truth to op on the support statements. Missing citations to show reference material but by far the best post I've read in a month historically accurate. +1 for that.

For myself I wish we had something soul bonding and marriage was supposed to be that but instead it turned into a take half your money exchange based on reports of other men over the years so it ruined the experience or motivation to chase for marriage. If it's happening.. it's enough to not want to marry. There doesn't seem to be any garentee marriage makes her yours, and you hers . I don't have comment on what we should do about it

Warm_Gur8832 · 2023-12-31T21:58:33+00:00

The idea that marriage is obsolete because it’s pushed in the direction of its own goals over time - you marry someone you love and loving someone requires letting them be themselves and be free - has always struck me as odd.

macone235 · 2023-12-31T20:41:21+00:00

Yes, it's obsolete in most cases unless you can get a significant power advantage to mitigate risk, i.e. an attractive outgoing rich guy with an ugly shy broke woman.

doggiedoc2004 · 2023-12-31T23:21:59+00:00

In a free society you are free to skip out on this tradition/legal institution. Isn’t that awesome about living in America? Everyone can do what is best for themselves including taking the risk in the legal contract of marriage or living together without a contract.

Marriage in the past was absolutely different especially for women who were forced sexual slaves. Marriage today has lost some of its luster for both sexes because of perceived and real inequalities.

Governments have a vested interest in marriage as a legal institution because marriage on the whole likely leads to a more stable society, more taxable income when women can work outside the home because childcare is ideally now a shared responsibility. Also, and most importantly, many studies have showed that children do best when raised in a two parent stable married household. (I am not sure what the differential is between a stable LRT monogamous but non married household vs the exact same but married is)

toasterchild · 2024-01-01T01:01:31+00:00

If you want a traditional relationship where one person stays home it's definitely not bullshit. If you expect someone to give up his or her earnings there should be legal protections that require you to split assets. It's not about being owned, it's about being owed. So many posts all over reddit about stay at home girlfriends getting totally fucked when he leaves her 12 years later with 3 kids, no income, no home, no nothing. Then it's pretty easy for him to get primary custody.

It's simply an agreement to split assets that offers major insurance and inheritance benefits. If your lifetime partner you live with dies tomorrow chances are their parents/ kids/ siblings get all the assets. That can leave you pretty fucked if you joint own property or have rent due that you can't fully afford on your own.

sublimemongrel · 2024-01-01T02:37:46+00:00

People who say stuff like this generally have little idea how much the government is “involved” in literally every aspect of your life.

Whether you can drive: government involvement

Whether you can travel, especially between countries:government involvement.

Your rights and obligations for any type of legal employment: government dictated except maybe you have additional special terms per contract and/or union involvement (two things which, surprise surprise, are also heavily government-involved)

Your rights and obligations concerning your kids: heavy government involvement

What happens when you/a loved one dies: government involvement including if you have a will

Marriage isn’t for everyone and not everyone should do it. This isn’t my “please let me sell you on marriage” post. Don’t get married if you don’t to.

I’m not sure what about the legal aspect of marriage is “bunk” it’s pretty much been a primary purpose of marriage from the beginning.

Specific_Praline_362 · 2024-01-01T03:18:48+00:00

I love being married. We lived together for 4 years before we got married, and I had the whole "whats a piece of paper" mindset too.

Then his granddad died and it was so awkward that I was his "girlfriend" because we were so much more than that.

Then we got married in 2014 and it is so different. Being married is so different than just living together. It really is. It's another level of commitment and it is amazing.

ClassicManagement393 · 2024-01-01T05:33:11+00:00

Well it is pretty disrespectful to have a child with someone and be their live in boyfriend or girlfriend forever without ever formally committing to them.

KikiYuyu · 2024-01-01T06:29:28+00:00

Marriage is more than just legal stuff, it's culture and tradition. We don't keep traditions around because of effectiveness, we keep them because we find value in old things passed down from older generations.

Sea_Roll_2099 · 2024-01-02T06:45:24+00:00

Our society puts too much emphasis on individualism.

Humans literally go insane when left without human contact.

We're far more collective than we're lead to believe.

A marriage is a union of two souls/spirits/animus into one.

DecisionPlastic9740 · 2023-12-31T21:54:13+00:00

Sure. Marriage doesn't stop her from cheating. Doesn't stop her from leaving you or giving a dead bedroom. It should just be a symbolic religious ceremony.

Bassist57 · 2024-01-01T01:31:38+00:00

It’s obsolete for men, massive financial risk for very little gain. For women, it’s the easiest way to move up in society.

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CasseroleTruck · 2023-12-31T22:59:46+00:00

Not really pertinent to the OP but was talking to this girl earlier from a parasocial circle (? lol) and she just casually brings up that she's getting a divorce. She didn't sound unhappy or crushed, she was actually cheerful, but I know masking is a thing. Weird since she's said nothing but great things about their marriage and also she's like 20 and has been married less than a year. Just one more time people prove to me that wedding vows just aren't taken as seriously as they used to be - for better or worse.

ItWasBrokenAlready · 2024-01-01T00:14:09+00:00

Marriage is a way to make someone your legal family. My husband is my family, and it is nice we can have it recognized as such. The government cannot really 'stay out of our lives' if you want to have any rules regarding next of kin, inheritance, shared property, hell, in my country I couldn't even give anything over 2-3k $ to my husband without him have to pay about 20% of that in gift tax if we were not married.

captainhowdy82 · 2024-01-01T00:49:58+00:00

Marriage is totally irrelevant for me. I have no use for it.

Sunshine12e · 2024-01-01T04:58:46+00:00

No, I don't think it is obsolete, because in any couple/relationship, people have to make life decisions that involve sacrifice from the other person. It is much riskier or more difficult to do things like decide to move for one partner's job, without marriage. Also, decisions made if one person becomes incapacitated.

one_time_animal · 2024-01-01T10:25:20+00:00

I think marriage is reverting back to a form it used to have just without polygamy. I'm pretty sure the lower classes just did not get married and it was something necessary to help divide up property after teh death of whoever had it before. See: Crusader Kings.

Fact is without property there wasn't much of an impetus to get married in history. Maybe christianity and some other buck that trend somewhat? But you see it today. In 2011 72% of blacks were born out of wedlock - a number sure to have only become worse in the 12 years since, and will be exacerbated even more by deep red states with high black pop banning abortion.

But they're jsut the canary in the coal mine. It's coming for everyone. The Hispanics that come here from SA and make up 20% of the country now will lose their religiosity in 2 generations.

I think class structures are going to become a lot more apparent in the US over the next few decades, and this is going to be exacerbated by there being so many blacks and hispanics clearly in the lower classes. Asians will be taken to be upper class on sight. Having married parents will become a class identifier.

Lift_and_Lurk · 2024-01-01T16:13:02+00:00

I think marriage has become what it should have been in the first place: a commitment from two religiously faithful people where they promise in front of god and family their devotion to each other.

It’s not about what’s socially expected

It’s not about finding a provider to survive

It’s not about getting someone so you aren’t alone

It’s not about a government contract for tax and benefits

So it’s about two people actually committing to each other in front of their family and church community. And celebrating it.

Not that many peyote religious anymore.
People no longer feel societal pressure anymore

So the way fewer are actually doing it for the right reasons.

That’s not a bad thing

XXXblackrabbit · 2024-01-01T17:15:47+00:00

Marriage is absolutely USELESS especially for men in todays society. A few small benefits that are largely inconsequential do not override the downsides. Don’t do it, if we want to live in a progressive culture, that’s fine, but men should refuse to entertain the traditional institutions that don’t benefit them in the context of a progressive culture.

nofaplove-it · 2024-01-01T17:42:06+00:00

If you’re not having kids, there really is little benefit to getting married.

Flightlessbirbz · 2024-01-01T19:53:43+00:00

The legal aspect is still important. If you want to have kids, own property with someone, and grow old together, those legal protections are important. It is in some ways like a business contract, and there’s nothing wrong with that.

There’s also nothing wrong with people wanting to attach religious or sentimental value to marriage either, as it’s a personal choice. If you don’t want to marry the nice thing is that is a viable option these days. If you want children though, the wisdom of skipping marriage is questionable. Your lives will be inextricably linked either way, and without marriage, men face more risk regarding parental rights and women face more risk regarding financial loss due to time away from work.

Great_Reset_ · 2024-01-02T18:04:46+00:00

"do you think that marriage has a place in society todaY"

Yes. You always have no idea what you're talking about.

"do you think that through our more liberal social ideas that we've kind of made marriage obsolete?"

the kind that has people having sex with animals, and a generation of kids who have been brainwashed into thinking they are transgender?

lol imagine it was a video game. Your side vs mine, you know which side would win and would side would destabilize from it's own debauchery.

relish5k · 2024-01-02T18:18:49+00:00

The primary beneficiaries of marriage are children. Children born to married parents are significantly better off across all dimensions than children born to non-married parents.

CountMandrake · 2024-01-03T07:32:04+00:00

It is largely obsolete, specially for men.

Gay marriage, on the other hand...

Damn like, I wish I could get married to my two brothers.

Legally speaking, I mean. We are bussines partners and we share a huge net but we get taxed like crazy while normal couples do not.

The idea behind marriage as a social institution is that the State is intrested not in the social and economic factors of said union, but in securing and incentivizing the main "goal" of marriage, which is every State main preocupation...

Children.

The State wants to secure, regulate and of course, incentivize, the production of children. Which mean, of course, more citizens.

That's why the State gets in between men and women. To institutionalize traditional families where children can grow up healthy and safe.

Of course birth rates are at all times low so I guess tradcon marriages are not doing their job.

Time to remove those silly privileges haha.

Do you that marriage is largely obsolete today now that social norms have been largely relaxed?

Comments

CHILD

Title	Do you that marriage is largely obsolete today now that social norms have been largely relaxed?
Author	Tripp_583
Upvotes	28
Comments	182
Date	December 31, 2023 8:23 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/18vg91l/do_you_that_marriage_is_largely_obsolete_today/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/do-you-that-marriage-is-largely-obsolete-today-now.1241990 https://theredarchive.com/post/1241990