900↑ for "Most men will never understand what it's like to be denied personhood." Feminists, let's discuss

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Shouldn’t black men be leading the charge on men’s issues? There’s so much overlap. Education, justice system, poverty. All effect men more than women, and all effect black people more than white people. So black men get a full double whammy when it comes to discrimination.

We should

But if there’s one thing I’ve realized with nimrods like Fresh and Fit is that there is not really a genuine desire to uplift each other in a massive way, because media doesn’t respond to positivity the way it does negativity. That’s why Tate, F&F and the passport bros have become laughing stocks in the larger culture.

You’d expect that we’d be leading the charge, but when BM achieve status, they often try and shed their identities for profit/likeability. MLK and Dr.X died broke from our modern perspectives.

That combined with the natural hate and disdain that black minorities garner from the larger races makes a lot of what we say only apply to us, and in the ear/ out the ear of the other minorities. (Looking at you Latino men)

Maybe I’m wrong, but that’s my guess

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It’s just… like…. you can’t tell? By interacting? It’s pretty obvious when someone is tolerating large parts of you vs. genuinely in love with you. The difference is like night and day when you’re paying attention. So how much attention could you have paid to what was literally happening in front of you? You only believe something or not based on a man literally saying it?

99% of people aren’t such fantastic actors that they can go years masking such intense disinterest or dislike. Maybe I could buy that happened to you once. But multiple times? For years? At what point do you take personal responsibility for your interpersonal relationships, and recognize that you’re not a passive agent in them?

We aren’t talking about coworkers or friends of friends or even family that you’re obligated to interact with. You’re saying this is happening to you in your long-term (years long) romantic relationships, right?

If my partner wasn’t demonstrating (not just saying, but demonstrating) genuine interest in me and our life together, why would I stay with them? For YEARS?

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[–]Separate-Syllabub667 [score hidden] 1 year ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

You seem incapable of understanding that humans and relationships are nuanced, lmao. You are struggling to understand because you are trying to make it into a black and white situation and making assumptions I never led you to believe.

I date a man when I am 19 years old for 3 years. This is my first relationship. He takes me on dates. He tells me he wants to propose some day. He buys me gifts, introduces me to his family, friends, we develop new hobbies together. He moves into the home I purchase with me. Throughout this, I have a nagging suspicion he doesn't vibe with me as well as he says and acts. Maybe it's an annoyed look while I'm talking about a game, maybe he starts hanging out with friends more and me less. I ask what's wrong, are your feelings changing, he says no of course not and fixes the behavior for a few months, the cycle continues. Eventually he cracks because my questioning becomes more frequent. As you would have it, I apparently should've torpedoed the relationship the first time this happened, instead of taking time to make a decision.

Second relationship, it was the same way, and I hadn't yet realized this behavior was not normal because my first and only relationship was this way. This relationship I only waited a year before deciding to stop trying and end things, so regardless of what you think, I did improve and was not passively floating through relationships. You are framing your entire argument on this idea that I was somehow blind to my relationships instead of lied to. A man moves in with me and at 20 years old I'm supposed to know he's definitely lying about his level of interest? I was 20 with a house, I had better things to do than play detective. Be realistic. Humans are flawed. They don't always say what they want, and they don't always do what they want.

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Sorry, but objectification is not necessary black and white. Either or. I had this conversation with my partner years ago. Because she was taking in material about objectification, and starting to feel like I only was with her for her looks.

Which could not have been further from the truth. I like to objectify my partner at times. This means that I sometimes express my lust for her body. Yet I also have daydreams about what a great connection we have, all her great qualities as a person, how much joy spending time with her brings to my life, etc.

Just the amount of time I spend with her(non sexually) should have been proof enough that this was not true, but here we were with her feeling like this.

We would spend hours discussing a myriad of random topics with her. Laughing joking and having a great time. But she was still able to ignore all of that in the moment, because I was also showing lust for her body. Which, if it was missing, she would have flipped the other way, and wondered if I found her physically attractive.

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You aren’t having your personhood denied if no one else is doing anything to you.

Simply“not giving you what you want” isn’t enough to be denied personhood.

It’s the part where one person feels comfortable demanding something from you for their own sake, and don’t care that how the demand affects you as long as you give them what they want.

So wanting a girl to date you: NOT denying personhood.

A girl not wanting to date you: NOT denying personhood.

Allowing people to have preferences and desires of their own, even if it means not giving us what we’d like, is all it takes to avoid this sort of thing.

The people who deny a woman’s personhood are the dudes who claim they know more about what women “SHOULD” want than the women themselves, and go out of their way to try and make women do what they want. And don’t care if the women doesn’t want to do those things.

Most men don’t do this.

But enough men do that most women have experienced it.

(Also, men have their personhood denied as well, I situations like a gold digger expecting a man to pay for things he doesn’t want ect.)

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It’s where he prioritizes what he wanted over what she wanted.

She clearly wants to have a smoke break. She was outside having one.

He came over and said that she shouldn’t smoke because he doesn’t like the sight of girls smoking.

He didn’t succeed in stopping her. But he very clearly valued what he wanted from her over what she wanted to be doing. Because he told her to stop literally for his own sake.

Again, this sort of thing isn’t always major or traumatic. Women (and many men!) deal with this shit every day.

If you ask someone out, you’re ASKING if they WANT to go out with them. As long as you accept it if they say No, you’re good to go.

However, there are men who think they can convince a woman to change her No to a Yes. They’ll argue or guilt or debate or bargain or threaten a woman when she says No.

These are the men women are talking about. If you’re not doing these things, you’re fine.

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The only one of those 3 that rings true is sexually.

"Politically" doesn't even make much sense to me. Everybody has the same amount of agency politically, 1 vote. There are more men in politics, but that doesn't mean men have more agency in politics or that women are denied it.

Socially men are without a doubt objectified more. Like how can anybody think otherwise? The desireability gap and general out group bias for women in general means people go out of their way for women in a way they absolutely do not for men. Just how badly do men need to dominate all the worst parts of life for people to realize this? Suicide rate, homelessness, violent crime victimization, all men.

The objectification women fear is being treated like a doll. The objectification men fear is being turned into a literal object, a fucking corpse.

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Yep, I don't think some men realize that depending on age even their mother might have not been legally able to own property or have a bank account when she was a young woman. Many of our grandmothers certainly couldn't. Women didn't just immediately become equal to men when suffragettes earned us the right to vote, the fight continued afterwards.

It is really easy for disingenuous men to say everything is equal on paper now so stop complaining. Legally? Yes, absolutely correct. But social change is a different matter entirely that they often refuse to acknowledge, or they act like social change is linked to legal change. Black Americans have been fighting for centuries now and still aren't at complete social equality. I don't know that any minority ever will be, because we keep seeing radical counter culture movements that push us back every time progress is made.

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I live in a very big city. When I go in public by myself, men hit on me (even when I have my toddlers with me!), but when I go in public with my husband, they don’t even look at me. Just him. They do the normal dude head nod thing and seldom, if ever, make eye contact with me. Because they respect me as an extension of him, but not as a person myself.

Sometimes older men (like 50-60+) will acknowledge us both, especially older white men or in nicer neighborhoods, but in a (for lack of a better term) grandfatherly way? Usually when we have our toddlers. They say stuff like “You’ve got your hands full!” etc. but in a pleasant, older person way.

But otherwise, men under 50ish (and some older), they very clearly still see me (a woman) as an extension of my husband (a man) when I am with him, and if I’m not, they don’t respect the theoretical man (based on me having a ring/kids), and will assume I’m available for their pitch — even when I have a ring or my multiple young children with me.

On some level, I actually love going out with him and being treated that way, because it’s like I’m INVISIBLE to men. They don’t even linger looking at me. I can be in a skimpy bikini, and they still only look short and respectfully when I’m with my husband. I just wish I could get that response WITHOUT a “bodyguard”.

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Because they refuse to acknowledge that doctors should be consulted in matters concerning women's health, not theocratic lawmakers.

I had one of those abortion for health of the mother edge cases. My membranes ruptured at 14 weeks, rendering the pregnancy non-viable (fetal lung development would be inadequate in the absence of amniotic fluid that early on in pregnancy). Membrane rupture is also infection risk without delivery occurring closely afterwards. At the Catholic hospital where I was receiving care, three of their own doctors told me termination was the only reasonable path forward, but they could not perform the procedure because there was still a fetal heartbeat and it was a Catholic hospital.

Fortunately I live in a blue state with secular care providers, and they quickly transferred my care.

In Texas, the fetal heart beating would outweigh my health even though the baby would not survive one breath on its own. Instead of waiting to develop an infection and/or giving birth to child who would die a horrible death, I went on to have three healthy children without being unnecessarily physically and mentally traumatized.

My husband certainly mourned our lost baby, but when he heard the baby's prognosis and that I was showing signs of infection, his only questions were was I OK and was how fast we could get the termination. That said, he certainly wouldn't ever vote for Trump.

Men who vote for Trump and then whine about women not wanting them should learn something about accountability. Own your vote, find your tradcon queen, let her die of sepsis for the sake of a non-viable baby if that's what your God intends. Liberals don't want anything to do with you, for good reason.

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[–]untamed-italianPurple Pill Man 6 points7 points8 points 1 year ago (18 children) | Copy Link

How?

By invalidating men's experiences and framing them as sadists you deny them personhood.

The experience is very different

No, dehumanization is a very interchangeable experience. What genitals you have matter less and less the closer your proverbial cattle car gets to its final destination.

This is just Oppression Olympics bullshit. It helps no one but the oppressors.

Men often show zero understanding of how women are denied personhood and default to how men are and show zero empathy for how women are.

The same is true in reverse, as the post you are defending proves. Does that mean we should accept lies as truth? Does that mean we should deny humanity to our fellow humans?

How does that improve anything for anyone? It doesn't.

The self pity and sadistic cry bully bullshit needs to end.

[–]TinyFlamingo2147Hope Pilled Man 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago (17 children) | Copy Link

[–]untamed-italianPurple Pill Man 3 points4 points5 points 1 year ago* (16 children) | Copy Link

What lies

That most men don't know what being dehumanized feels like.

who are the oppressors?

The ruling, ownership class of the capitalist hierarchy.

Women don't oppress men, they aren't on top

Ruling class women do oppress everyone beneath them, men and women. No singular sex is 'on top' because humans reproduce sexually, so any ruling class capable of perpetuating itself must include men and women.

Ffs white women purchased slaves to rape them. During Jim Crow they fucked black men then falsely accused them of rape to have them lynched. Wherever there are disparities in power there are oppressors who protect power and the oppressed who are denied power.

Pretending like women do not occupy many of the most powerful offices in the world is just a lie. It's far from 50/50 but it also isn't 90/10 either.

Men aren't either, it's the rich and powerful on top.

The rich and powerful includes rich and powerful women, who are more powerful than poor men. It's not a matriarchy either, but the fact remains that upper class women do exist and perpetuate their power using the oppression of lower class people - including men.

The dudes lying to men that we're oppressed victims.

That's not a lie: everyone is oppressed and victimized by the capitalist superstructure in inverse proportion to the potency of their position in the hierarchy.

You're actively doing the self pity

It's self pity to deny a lie and correct a counterfactual, or to defend the dignity of the oppressed? No, it isn't. It is self pity to moan on and on as though women are the only people who know what it is like to be oppressed. Correcting that is an act of enlightened education, not self pity.

sadistic cry bullshit

How am I inflicting pain or reveling in the suffering of others by correcting a basic lie? You're just DARVOing.

now crying about how oppressed you are

What tears? Again, correcting a lying, bawling child isn't an expression of self pity.

If you're going into feminist subs

This isn't a feminist sub, it is a debate sub. Have you forgotten where this post was posted? Lol, get out of your feels already kiddo.

[–]TinyFlamingo2147Hope Pilled Man 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (15 children) | Copy Link

[–]untamed-italianPurple Pill Man 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago (14 children) | Copy Link

Who said men don't know it feels to be dehumanized?

Lovely goalposts do not need to be moved. I am talking about why even the claim "most men don't know what it feels like" is still a lie.

Most men are poor and are not white.

Feminists don't say that

Are you arguing that twox and the people who agree with the post are not feminist?

Isn't that up to them to decide, not you? Don't be a creep.

They point out how men dehumanize them and play oppression Olympics when they try to bring the topics back to the way women are dehumanized.

The topic of the post is explicitly how most men are ignorant of the experience of dehumanization, so that lie is the topic.

Men arguing against that lie in the post are examples of men defending the validity of their experiences against a dehumanizing lie, not 'changing' the topic back to the topic described by the title of the post!

Everything else you're talking about are problems with capitalism and racism. Not women and feminism.

Again, are you arguing that the post author and those who agree with it are not feminist? That is not up to you to decide.

You're jumping all over the place dude. What are you even talking about?

I'm quoting you explicitly and responding to each statement you make in turn. That's jumping around?

If you cannot grasp what I am writing why even bother replying?

I am saying that the claim "most men don't know what it feels like to be dehumanized/denied personhood" is a lie. Well, to be fair I am also mocking you a little for being so committed to defending your own dehumanization too. But it is mostly the former, I promise. 💅

[–]TinyFlamingo2147Hope Pilled Man 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago (13 children) | Copy Link

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[–]untamed-italian2 points 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Quoting and running down random tangents

You mean my specific replies and counterarguments to your claims?

Your inability to take them seriously says more about you than me. They're just words, what is there to be afraid of?

Being wrong is just another way of saying "in need of learning", and you can learn.

that have nothing to do with what I'm talking about

Says you. This is nothing but a hollow gasp of denial. If they are irrrelevant it is on you to prove they are irrelevant.

like women purchasing slaves to rape them.

Which is an example of women oppressing men, used to debunk your claim that it doesn't happen. Other people's arguments are not "random tangents" just because you cannot stop them from refuting your argument.

Your inability to harmonize harsh reality with your featherbed fantasy is proof that your premise is false. That isn't my problem to fix, it is the natural consequence of my refutation of your argument.

Welcome to a debate sub. Were you here for something else?

Now, the admirable thing to do at this point would be to take a step back and analyze why the debate played out like this for the sake of identifying what about your premise or your arguments need improvement. Hint hint.

Shotgun blasting a million different points for someone to address doesn't make you correct.

The term you are looking for is "Gish Gallop".

Unfortunately for you, responding to your points in sequence within a written medium and with no time limit for your responses means that this isn't a relevant fallacy for this debate.

The quantity of points to argue was in your control from the start of the thread through this very comment: I am only replying to the points you brought up.

At any rate, what makes me correct is the fact that my argument (that most men absolutely do know what the experience of being dehumanized is like) remains unrefuted. In fact it remains mostly unaddressed, since you decided to do me the favor of attacking me instead of my argument for most of this thread. 💅

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The U.S. draft hasn’t been used in over 50 years and will never reasonably be used ever again.

It is entirely reasonable that the US will have another draft at some point. It is entirely possible it might be needed in 2027-2030 if China invades Taiwan.

This doesn't change though that the draft is not only something the US has done historically, but is considered entirely legal. Draftees are literally alive today that you can go talk to. That they aren't arguing about it online doesn't really change the fact that Harris is just wrong, the US government clearly has a legal right over the bodies of men that they haven't exercised over women.

The incentive to voluntarily join are so good

We've been missing recruitment goals for a little while now, that's how good the incentives are.

and the social climate around compelled service is so in favor of the civilian

Because it is peace time

and warfare is so different now vs. 50 years ago… that you will never be drafted

If warfare is changing so rapidly, then how can you say that we won't need the draft at some point? That question aside, warfare really has not changed that much, so much as our objectives in wars have changed. Every war is unique, and we're in a period of higher tensions with China especially, but also Iran and Russia. The odds of a major war have gone up considerably just in the last decade.

So is your only gripe here that IN THEORY your bodily autonomy could be violated IF you lived 50 years ago or in an alternative timeline where modern warfare would need a draft?

It completely defeats the point that infringements on individual autonomy are limited to women.

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I disagree and this is me saying this as a feminist. I actually believe the opposite to be true. If we’re speaking about day to day life a man will tell you that he doesn’t get complimented or uplifted nearly as much as a woman does even among his own peers. The suicide rate is higher among men and the conversation about protecting the women and the children has been a thing since the beginning of time. There’s the male loneliness epidemic to also consider where, try as we might, it’s just harder to make friends as an adult. The women are wonderful effect is a psychological phenomenon which describes the tendency of people to have more positive feelings about women than men. Not to mention the way men are being treated throughout American and European society (granted because we’ve unjustly politicized women’s bodies but let’s remember white WOMEN voted with their male counterparts to get our president elect into office). Then let’s consider non white men to add an important extra layer onto that shit cake.

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Right - being denied personhood... like, for instance, if you're compared to a literal apex predator and found to be the less preferable option to come across in the wild. Meaning you're not considered a person, you're not even considered a predator, you're considered worse, and constantly compared to the absolute lowest scum society has to offer based on nothing other than the way you look.

Something like that perhaps?

Or, maybe, being treated like you're a monster when you just spend time with your children - and being told that you shouldn't change your daughter's diaper because that's "weird" and "creepy"?

Or being forced under threat of legal consequences to roll the dice, maybe you get sent to die in a war that you had no hand in starting - started by people who will never know your name, let alone care about you as a person?

[–]griii2Make facts matter again please (Man)[S] 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (14 children) | Copy Link

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Similarly, I don't think women really understand the societal ramifications of being a man.

When I meet a new person, I can't just say hi. In doing so, I need to prove myself safe. In every single new interaction as an adult, I have to prove that I'm not a monster somehow.

Tell me - if forced to choose, who would you rather comfort if you found them crying? A male friend, or a woman you met in a bathroom 10 seconds ago? How long would you have had to know that man for it to switch?

Weeks? Months? Years? For a lot of women, it's never.

This bleeds into every area of my life. Go to a bar? Can't look at people. Walking home? I feel unsafe, but I need to cross the street to make other people not feel unsafe.

Meet a new person? It takes days, weeks, months, or even years of perseverance, attentiveness, and sacrifice to finally reach the point that a woman starts at.

Gender affects life. That's a fact. But you'd be surprised just how much being a man affects you as well. Read Norah Vincent's "Self-Made Man" if you're interested.

Being a man gives me privilege. I don't deny that.

The cost of male privilege makes me want a refund.

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[–]Different_Cress7369Purple Pill Woman -2 points-1 points0 points 1 year ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]ArtifactFan65Anime Pilled Male 4 points5 points6 points 1 year ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Main-Tiger8593Purple Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]mashedturnipBlue Pill Woman 6 points7 points8 points 1 year ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]Main-Tiger8593Purple Pill Man 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]mashedturnipBlue Pill Woman 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Main-Tiger8593Purple Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]mashedturnipBlue Pill Woman 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]sanslumierePurple Pill Woman 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Main-Tiger8593Purple Pill Man 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]TermAggravating8043 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago (12 children) | Copy Link

[–]griii2Make facts matter again please (Man)[S] 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[–]TermAggravating8043 -1 points0 points1 point 1 year ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[–]griii2Make facts matter again please (Man)[S] -1 points0 points1 point 1 year ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ineedtogetthisout97Blue Pill Woman 2 points3 points4 points 1 year ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]griii2Make facts matter again please (Man)[S] 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ineedtogetthisout97Blue Pill Woman 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]griii2Make facts matter again please (Man)[S] 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ineedtogetthisout97Blue Pill Woman 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]griii2Make facts matter again please (Man)[S] 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Ineedtogetthisout971 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Savings-Bee-4993Cosmic Pilled Man (Virtue Aligned) -1 points0 points1 point 1 year ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Ineedtogetthisout97Blue Pill Woman 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Conscious-Truth-7685No Pill Man 3 points4 points5 points 1 year ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]griii2Make facts matter again please (Man)[S] 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]MissJejePink Pill Woman 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]griii2Make facts matter again please (Man)[S] 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Conscious-Truth-7685 1 year ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]RandomwoowooBlue Man Group[M] 0 points1 point2 points 1 year agolocked comment (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]0kayz00merPurple Pill Man 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]AutoModerator[M] 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]apresonlyfeminist woman entitled to your wallet 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Ineedtogetthisout971 point 1 year ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]InterestingDiamond35Purple Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]fleshcrayonNo Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]medicinal_bulgogiPurple Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]griii2Make facts matter again please (Man)[S] 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]medicinal_bulgogiPurple Pill Man 3 points4 points5 points 1 year ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]griii2Make facts matter again please (Man)[S] 1 point2 points3 points 1 year ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]fundamentally_comfyMan 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]bluehorserunningBlue Pill Woman 0 points1 point2 points 1 year ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]griii2Make facts matter again please (Man)[S] -1 points0 points1 point 1 year ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]bluehorserunningBlue Pill Woman -1 points0 points1 point 1 year ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]griii2Make facts matter again please (Man)[S] -1 points0 points1 point 1 year ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]bluehorserunningBlue Pill Woman -1 points0 points1 point 1 year ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]MachineMan718Hateful Misanthrope -1 points0 points1 point 1 year ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]RealityCold4693No Pill -4 points-3 points-2 points 1 year ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	900↑ for "Most men will never understand what it's like to be denied personhood." Feminists, let's discuss
Author	griii2
Upvotes	11
Comments	413
Date	November 12, 2024 2:59 PM UTC (1 year ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1gpmlwu/900_for_most_men_will_never_understand_what_its/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/900-for-most-men-will-never-understand-what-its.1535538 https://theredarchive.com/post/1535538

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