CMV: There is a shortage of eligible, "good men" who are family and marriage oriented

concacanca · 2019-01-21T16:59:20+00:00

So in general I don't disagree with you but I think you are just throwing out shaming language with this:

A lot of men think that because they have a reasonably good job and aren't living in poverty, that they suddenly have a license to be weird and sleep around with tons of women and be "playboys". Thus, they eliminate standard number 8 and are no longer good men.

Thats not really the reason guys are sleeping around. They are sleeping around because they a) can and b) they have requirements for marriage far above what they do for sex.

worldnewsie · 2019-01-21T16:51:10+00:00

Ok, sounds like you are ignoring point 3 for women - that is a huge issue these days. Also, you should add a point for no single mothers. That reduces the "large" number of good women.

peterlongc · 2019-01-21T16:53:00+00:00

women have played their part in creating the men that exist and continue to play their part in discouraging and devaluing men. it should come as no surprise that as women literally enter roles where men existed and displace them that now there will be less men that meet the standards women wish that men had. obviously we celebrate women displacing men and then ask why aren't there more good men with good jobs...

blame and responsibility are extremely complex, but simple people enjoy pointing their fingers and refusing to take any responsibility.

reluctantly_red · 2019-01-21T16:47:56+00:00

Wtf? You are describing the textbook beta male. And they're everywhere

When you look at your elementary/HS/college classes you honestly can't find any men who fit your criteria?

Five_Decades · 2019-01-21T17:02:31+00:00

You're describing the stereotypical beta bucks male.

A lot of men think that because they have a reasonably good job and aren't living in poverty, that they suddenly have a license to be weird and sleep around with tons of women and be "playboys". Thus, they eliminate standard number 8 and are no longer good men.

Really? In my experience, the market is full of average guys with good jobs who can't get anywhere with women because they aren't in the top 10% in looks. I know endless college educated guys with middle class jobs who are average looking, who can barely get dates.

Plopolok · 2019-01-21T17:35:45+00:00

With your requirements I'd suggest IT guys. Even so, you'll find few indeed.

60k : as someone said, the median in the USA is 43k.
willing to wait for sex until a serious relationship or marriage happens: it depends on what you mean by "serious", but it seems to me that you're again asking for more than the norm.
doesn't smoke weed or drink excessively: is it "(smoke weed) or (drink excessively)" or "(smoke weed or drink) excessively"? Because a lot of people smoke weed.

Still, the real problem won't be that you can't find people that meet these requirement, but that they won't meet your unsaid ones: happy, confident, desired by other women. And single. Actually, with "no track record of sleeping around" plus "family oriented" and "single", he practically can't be desired by other women. And you might not have written it, but it will block you.

Gravel_Roads · 2019-01-21T16:48:30+00:00

Your definition of “good” is just a bunch of different ways of saying “rich”, ningnong. It’s almost like we’re in a financial and housing crisis or something. If you think women aren’t suffering from it, too, you’re not looking outside what must be a very small social window.

The rest are kind of prudish slut-shaming that transcends gender, since women and men smoke weed and shit pretty equally (and are perfectly excellent aside from it)

Sbijsoda · 2019-01-21T17:42:47+00:00

I am all these things and still incel. There is no shortage of "good men", you just choose to ignore them.

KeffirLime · 2019-01-21T17:38:03+00:00

Men will gravitate towards behaviors that are sexually rewarded.

Meaning alot of your points will never be required. They will display a couple of them and get sexually rewarded halfway.

I.e. If they get sexually rewarded for just having cash, or just being good looking, or just having a good personality the incentive is not there to develop all the other factors that make up your "good man" model.

If he could only get laid after achieving all those attributes, I assure you there would be tons.

There are still alot of beta males who aren't getting much sex, who are still under the illusion that they can "good guy" their way there, but they're invisible to most women, as you just demonstrated by making this post.

blackedoutfast · 2019-01-21T18:33:24+00:00

I know at least 9000 mediocre women in real life who say this exact same bullshit. they would totes love to find some nice sweet guy to get married to, but there just aren't enough good men out there.

and every single one of those 9000 women is busy chasing dudes who are out of her league and have an abundance of much better options. dudes who would never decide to settle for some boring, dumpy, skinny-fat, near-wall woman. but these women always get stuck on those guys.

and every single one of those 9000 women also has at least one (usually more) beta orbiters who literally meets all of her claimed expectations for a "good man" but since those orbiter guys are so obviously interested in these mediocre women, those women have absolutely zero interest in them.

forget all this stuff about there not being enough good men out there because it's complete horseshit. women obsessively chase what they can't have, and lose interest in anything that they can get easily. that's all that really matters.

thoth5431 · 2019-01-21T16:53:43+00:00

Just wait until you realize that a lot of those people who appear put together and have everything under control are not as put together as they appear. It is super easy to fake that everything is fine to someone that doesn't intimately know you. And even then, plenty of people still manage to do that with their closest friends and family.

Everyone's expectations are too damned high. Humans are messy, dirty creatures. And the number of good men or women, no matter how they look from the outside, is small.

That opinion is brought to you by social work and getting to see behind the scenes of many so-called "pristine" lives.

HonestyOverCivility · 2019-01-21T17:10:15+00:00

By the same criteria there’s a shortage of good women as well...

zmndyeqm · 2019-01-21T17:50:57+00:00

Well you didn't put stuff like "confident", "forthcoming", and "having game" in there, so I assume you're fine with approaching men yourself instead of waiting for some "good man" to go out of his way to find you.

In which case stop whining about "men you know" and go meet new men that fit your criteria and ask them out.

equanimous_samsara · 2019-01-21T17:01:18+00:00

I know SO MANY women who meet the above criteria,

Men who have their life together get married, otherwise they're sleeping around because they don't give a shit if a woman meets her own criteria.

coratoad · 2019-01-21T17:40:51+00:00

Why not be the provider and get a poor but kind and family oriented man to be a stay at home dad?

Imagine coming home every day and seeing your loving husband playing with your kids. He would be happy. The kids would be happy. Wouldn't you be happy too? I think it would be wonderful.

PBRScagsquad · 2019-01-21T16:57:03+00:00

A lot of men think that because they have a reasonably good job and aren't living in poverty, that they suddenly have a license to be weird and sleep around with tons of women and be "playboys".

Yes they do since no one is stopping them from doing so and because they have the ability to do so. That's how it works. Get over it.

genethedog · 2019-01-21T18:05:21+00:00

So basically a good man:

1) Has money, 2) is in your age range, 3) modest (or inexperienced depending on how you look at it., 4) average to good looking, 5) has money, 6) has money, 7) has money, 8) doesn't expect anything in return, especially that which he most desires (also related to number 3), 9) may not have any other outlets for pleasure besides waiting/begging for sex and working to make more money.

Ok, now, what makes a good woman? You can know all the women in the world that have all that. Did you ever stop to consider that clears throat MEN DON'T FUCKING CARE ABOUT YOUR JOB/MONEY or SOCIAL STATUS WE AREN'T LOOKING FOR THE SAME THINGS AS A WOMAN

Why can women never get it through their fucking heads. We don't give a shit about your fucking education (usually in a people focused soft science), we don't give a shit about your money. 4 out of the 9 (45%) requirements you have are MONEY. Geez, this is such a new concept to men, we had no idea that women were attracted to money and status. /s

What's a "good woman"? And don't say it's the same as all the tings you listed for a good man. That's ridiculous.

Good woman (no particular order):

NOT A SLUT (less than 3 men yes, even by 40!)
Agreeable/Submissive (takes care of her man in a supporting role (cooks, cleans, provides physical pleasure and emotional support).
Doesn't get too fat.

There you have it. That's all it takes.

TheMarbleSlab · 2019-01-21T16:59:47+00:00

has a good job paying over $60k a year (in major metropolitan areas with a higher cost of living)

60k is peanuts in a major metro area lol that's like the bare minimum to not have roommates

Furthermore, when you go to churches, there is always like 3 young women for every young man. The women in my churches tend to have their lives together, but the young men tend to be mental space cadets who are poor and in crappy situations. Not to judge them for going to church, and I am happy for their religious journey, but they also aren't ready to marry at all.

Oh those poor tradthots with no hubby to wife up her n=50 ass

and for every "good man" there are like 3-5 " good women"

You assume every woman who wants to get married is good falsely

_Neon_Shadow_ · 2019-01-21T17:24:31+00:00

1) has a good job paying over $60k a year (in major metropolitan areas with a higher cost of living)

2) is between the ages of 24 and 39

3) doesn't have a super high n count or track record of sleeping around

4) is above a 4/10 in looks

5) has a car in cities where you need a car to survive

6) has an emergency fund if something happens to him, like his car breaking down or he loses his job

7) is not under crippling debt and is responsible with credit cards

8) is a loving, supportive, and good person who is willing to wait for sex until a serious relationship or marriage happens and isn't manipulative or abusive or tempermental

9) doesn't smoke weed or drink excessively (personally I hate alcohol).

Of these 9, how many do you meet? u/TheMarbleSlab

CrestfallenWolf · 2019-01-21T18:15:44+00:00

Being a guy who meets or exceeds all of those criteria I'll tell you; women look straight through me.

Being good isn't good enough. Being good is average and average is boring.

Fabianstrategy1 · 2019-01-21T19:21:38+00:00

The majority of women do not select for your criteria and therefore men have taken note and adjusted to the new paradigm i.e AF/BB. The "Goodman" is a dying breed because men are starting to take note that a virtuous life does not attract women, nor really offer any benefits or rewards for those behaviors.

hilupihapipapi · 2019-01-21T17:28:16+00:00

Why do you consider yourself entitled to a good man? The way you write about men tells me you're quite a ways from being a good catch, too.

"I am ready to settle down because I am in a stable place financially and emotionally".

Ahahaha.... emotionally, you say? Is that what they call getting dicked by dozens of men nowadays? You don't want a partner. You want a man who you can leech off of.

A lot of men think that because they have a reasonably good job and aren't living in poverty, that they suddenly have a license to be weird and sleep around with tons of women and be "playboys".

So. Salty. You can't lock men like that down, so instead of improving yourself so that they may consider you wife material, you want everyone else to change so that they can suit your selfish, solipsistic needs better. This, right there, is why no man wants anything to do with you.

Ahabs_Pegleg · 2019-01-21T17:26:22+00:00

I like how in your brain somehow "body count" is #3 issue, while being a caring or nice individual or even someone with a fucking personality is #8. Why are you so fucked in the head? Get off off line dude.

Pope_Lucious · 2019-01-21T18:24:13+00:00

No auto mod so posting this here. Just by your $60k income requirement, you’re in the top 31% of men already. And income skews older. So there are going to be more 40+ men making $60k than 24-39 men making that.

This is just your standard “here are my standards” daily post. But you never answer the supply side from what men are buying for in women-

What do you have to offer men with all of these credentials? Why would they pick you?

Monado_Moron · 2019-01-21T19:41:04+00:00

I haven't read all of the replies, but I'm surprised that it seems like men like this are hard to find. I think I meet every one of those criteria.

$80k+ salary in software engineering (in a small city of ~100k people)
27 years old
Dated around a bit but have only had one serious relationship. I think I would be a "TradCon" in TRP lingo.
Think I'm decent looking
Have my own car (and looking to buy a new one this year)
Have plenty of money in savings
No credit card debt, just bought my own place this year so I have a mortgage
Refuse to have one night stands
Have never smoked weed, only drink socially

If that's all it took to attract women, it would be easy. It seems like I'm able to attract women I'm not at all interested in, fat/ugly chicks or Left-wing/Progressive/Overly-feminist types. I don't often meet women I'm interested in, but it always seems like they like to string me along. Guess I'm just too much of a "beta bux."

Willow-girl · 2019-01-21T17:09:44+00:00

As of 2018, the median income for a man in the 25-to-34 age group was about $43,000. So by requiring $60,000, you're already eliminating more than half of your pool of eligibles. So ... good luck?

CamoWoobie10 · 2019-01-21T17:36:35+00:00

I dont think any of those requirements are unreasonable, except most women dont care about a guy's sexual history as long as it's not some crazy outlier and they're STD free. I think if more women had those requirements, everyone would be a lot happier. The problem is, you are projecting your own personal idea of what a "good man" is. What a good man is, is subjective, and a lot of women would place much higher or completely different requirements than what you have listed. I would say, if a woman is in a position of not being able to find a man of those requirements, she should look at herself and see if she is of high enough quality to demand those things.

I do think the bar for men is somewhat low (in the context of long term relationships) right now, but I also believe the quality of women has plummeted as well which is what is contributing to it. The figure of speech "why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free" comes to mind. These days the milk often isnt even worth the squeeze, so why would they even try? Also sex has become easier to obtain than ever.

Edit: Men and women have different standards for what they find attractive in a partner, measuring a woman by the yardstick you use to judge a sucessful male is your first mistake.

officerkondo · 2019-01-21T18:04:57+00:00

who is willing to wait for sex until a serious relationship or marriage happens

I do not understand why this is a moral good. You come back to it, so clearly it is one of your more important components of "good man" despite being number eight.

Furthermore, when you go to churches, there is always like 3 young women for every young man.

This is because western Christianity, more especially the Revivalist Protestant sects, are highly feminized. What does a man get out of going to the gooey self-help Powerpoint presentation at a megachurch?

reluctantly_red · 2019-01-21T18:05:25+00:00

How many women meet these criteria. I don't know a single one IRL.

TheMarbleSlab · 2019-01-21T18:30:00+00:00

What’s funny is this is EXACTY what the MGTOW community has been wanting people about.

So many women expect a rich model, meanwhile they are lazy overweight or unemployed themselves.

Im not saying the OP is that or is right/wrong or anything else. Just that more and more men complain that “women are trash” and don’t want to be in a relationship.

Will be VERY interesting if they were right and it brings up problems for women in general

abaxeron · 2019-01-21T18:31:15+00:00

On the Reddit/ manosphere communities, women are always shamed for not being married young and are constantly told that they need to lower their standards for what they consider a "good man".

No they aren't. Women are completely free and entitled to flushing their life down the shitters; my concern (as a fellow representative Redditor) is that I am FORCED to pay for consequences of their poor decisions... ironically, making me less eligible under conditions 1), 5), and 7).

This is as much as I've got.

Furthermore, when you go to churches, there is always like 3 young women for every young man.

The church is an institution designed to oppress and subjugate women, don't you know

throwinout · 2019-01-21T18:50:13+00:00

You are off about the number of "good women". There are not that many "good women". If there were, men would rise up to compete for them. Men are giving up and not working as hard because there are less "good women". Why work hard and be a good man if you are most likely just still going to end up with a trash woman anyway?

EsauTheRed · 2019-01-21T19:45:56+00:00

There are plenty of "good men" and "good women" around if you don't expect them to be pumped out like a factory product and shipped to you via Am(an)azon*

Who grows up and moves out with their shit completely together? Not most people, certainly not in their 20's and perhaps early 30's. Who is grinding away specifically for that family they may or may not have like a robot? Hardly anyone. Most people are hustling for what they want for their own reasons, and when you cross paths you're either compelling enough to create a course change or you're not.

Having this strict of criteria is fine for PPD and random discussion, but rl it's a handicap. People that succeed at the family game have to be more dynamic than lists, willing to grow and change with a person (and then little persons) because there's always a hierarchy of demands fighting for attention. I'd go so far as to say not going through that shift in priorities together could hurt in the long run. That's the stuff that teaches each other what you value, how well those values align, and how good of a team you are. It's also hopefully where you have shared memories of debauchery you'll never totally grow out of.

Part of good vetting is being realistic about how much of a project you're willing to take on until the perfect human factory comes online.

*I'll see myself out

cxj · 2019-01-21T20:34:01+00:00

A lot of men think that because they have a reasonably good job and aren't living in poverty, that they suddenly have a license to be weird and sleep around with tons of women and be "playboys". Thus, they eliminate standard number 8 and are no longer good men.

What exactly do you mean by "be weird?"

I personally have never witnessed the "UMC Atlantic article" phenomena of less common successful guys sleeping around with their more common women. I've seen the opposite, where the 100k/year SF tech bros are dry as a desert while my former band members turned bar tenders essentially live off of fucking multiple women via crashing on their couches and just rotating from girl to girls house. Some of these girls beg a plead for said bartenders to "get their lives together" but of course it never happens.

Regarding your 8), how long exactly does a man have to wait for sex to fit your criteria?

purple_pal · 2019-01-21T22:43:22+00:00

I've been lurking here for a while, but created a throwaway to join the conversation, since I don't want my main account to become linked to "pillosphere" topics

Furthermore, when you go to churches, there is always like 3 young women for every young man. The women in my churches tend to have their lives together, but the young men tend to be mental space cadets who are poor and in crappy situations. Not to judge them for going to church, and I am happy for their religious journey, but they also aren't ready to marry at all.

I'd seriously be interested in hearing some of your anecdotes regarding this, or at least some further elaboration of your perspective. In what ways do the women you're describing have their lives together, and it what ways do the men you're describing not have their lives together? Also, what would you say is your ratio of time engaging in personal discussions with women, vs personal discussions with men? I'm going to make a bold assumption that, as a woman, you probably have accumulated more insight into the female social perspective, than the male social perspective. Also, religious congregations can vary widely in terms of doctrine and culture, so it's possible that you simply may be in a community with a lopsided social field.

As a 29 year old male who grew up religious myself, and still loosely take part in a religious community, please allow me to share my perspective. For some background, I'd say I meet just about all of the criteria in your original post. I work in technology, make a salary in the low six figures, have been in a single 1.5 year relationship, haven't slept around and don't intend to, and don't smoke or do any drugs. However, I've all but let go of my faith, and the idea of dating and/or marrying a devoutly religious woman doesn't interest me in the least.

One factor which contributed to me giving up on my faith was observing dating culture within the church, and realizing that the motivations of religious men and women in the realm of dating don't actually differ all too much from those of secular men and women. The only difference I could see was that faith was used as an additional layer or tool by both genders to accomplish their goals in the realm of relationships.

As a generalization, both men and women are looking for the same qualities in a partner: attractiveness and stability. People have varying opinions of how much emphasis each gender places on these qualities, but it really boils down to those two things. Attractiveness can encompass physical looks, personality, intelligence, capability/aptitude, and general competence, while stability can encompass finances, assets, social connected-ness, loyalty, and health. There may be other subcategories, but I think you get the idea.

For many eligible bachelors/bachelorettes in a religious community, there's this unspoken hope that traditional or conservative values derived from faith will make for more stable partners. Especially the idea that both individuals will be looking for marriage in relatively short order. From my observations, the women in these communities are enamored with the concepts of weddings and children. I'm sure any given woman's motivation for a relationship is a little more complex than that, but as a man, I have more experience having deep conversations with fellow men rather than women, and this is what I found: Various men in religious settings have confided with me that marriage is an avenue to secure an exclusive sexual partner. Weddings, kids, and families are definitely other important factors, but chances are, if you get a male Bible study group together, one topic that never failed to come up was every man's struggle with sexual desire, and balancing this desire with holding out for the woman they'd eventually marry.

These struggles aside, the same men who would confide in me about their desire for a godly marriage had a very predictable pattern in terms of women they'd approach. It was usually the bubbly, slender, attractive gals at church, and rarely the more homely-looking, overweight gals. Meanwhile, I'd have conversations with guys who were rejected by women for not meeting their standards of being strong enough "Men of God", allegedly based on their dedication to the faith. However, based on my interactions with these guys, in my opinion they were decent enough people with good work ethic, and a solid moral compass, at least in the scope of the faith we followed. The common factors across these rejected religious men were their lack of outstanding physical attractiveness, or a high paying job.

In short, "Good Men" and "Good Women" are arbitrary moving goalposts based on the expectations on an individual level. The reason the dating landscape is the way it is right now is because human beings will utilize any tools/assets at their disposal to get whatever it is they're looking for in a relationship. And more often than not, people are not honest with others or even themselves regarding their motivations or expectations. The reason you or I can't find any "Good" single people we'd be willing to pursue a relationship with is because the people who demonstrate sufficient value are quickly selected and paired off early on. If you're looking to pair with a specific type of person, you have to become what that person is looking for, and then put yourself on that person's radar, one way or another.

TL;DR: Religious or moral systems have little to no effect on the mechanics of dating. At worst, they only conceal true intentions, and at best, they only add extra layers of complexity.

Emervila · 2019-01-21T23:33:08+00:00

I like the fact you use the same criteria to define good in both man and women at least there's balance. The weak point is your utilitarian vision to assign value to a person also your denial of history.

Utilitarian vision: you set up an economical barrier but this great job might go to hell in the next recession even savings lose value. Everybody accepts you have to be productive but set up a economical barrier leaving millions discarded seems non human.

Denial of history: through the entire history man carried women as economical burden being the only provider for centuries even milenia but now that women are competing and reaching the same places they're refusing to do the same. Women will never consider 60/40 or higher deal for them to support more than man, a man has no option to be at home and his wife be the provider in your equation that simply fact shows your outside reality... Man in the other hand can and will take a women 70/30 or even 100 of the support to be consider good man but housewives will always be valuable.

Women have to accept that at some point in the history, as it's been for all leaders and providers, they will reach a moment when they will have to be the main providers or only providers as men have been through centuries it's just simply math and history, if they refuse like you do you better be preparing to be the most luxury and successful cat lady.

I believe both a man and a wormen can take a 70/30 couple when the one providing 30 works also great at home and they're both committed to the relationship because a human is more than few numbers.

iFunnyPrince · 2019-01-21T20:07:05+00:00

Yeah, I smoke cannabis occasionally, so even though I meet the other requirements I'm automatically a bad dude. Shucks.

GradualDecomp · 2019-01-21T17:11:19+00:00

Not my experience at all. There's no shortage of good men, but there's certainly no shortage of losers and jerks either.

ssbmrai · 2019-01-21T17:59:26+00:00

Unfortunately for you, your definition of a good man doesn't mean shit. A man is a man when he says he's a man, not when a woman or beta male says he's a man. A man could have one or none of these things on your list, and he would still be a good man because real good men do not need validation from others.

SlimLovin · 2019-01-21T18:02:38+00:00

TIL I’m a good man.

hypermeganet · 2019-01-21T18:45:18+00:00

I think an issue you’re having is one of personality, if your posting pattern here is at all indicative of how you are in reality. You have standards and you say there’s not enough/any(?!) supply to meet them.

Are you at all concerned that your past being overweight has led to significant emotional distress that is coloring your male/female interactions?

You’re 24. There should be a significant supply of solid men in a major metro if you have the attributes you say you have. Something is acting as a barrier and it’s very unlikely to be a lack of supply as the primary issue.

Have you done a deep look inwardly? Not easy at 24.

Noxin__Nixon · 2019-01-21T18:51:37+00:00

1-8 is easy to find but they are usually serial monogamists so you have to just to be on alert all the time.

9) doesn't smoke weed or drink excessively (personally I hate alcohol).

Here is your deal breaker. You want all of the above but you also want a religious guy that doesn't party. Good luck.

You do realize that the cultures at most companies that employ college graduates in their 20s making over 60K/year have big party cultures right? Wall Street, Madison Avenue, Silicon Valley giants and start ups, Hollywood, every major law firm, young doctors. Reality is in the big cities most men that have 1-8 are not interested in being that religious and never partying.

If you were willing to compromise on one of those - he can either be into your religion or he is a sober person then you would have a far easier time.

And your 1 good men to 3-5 good women is just as bullshit as the guy claiming tons of good guy competition for every good women. I think its just that a lot of good men find good women and pair off quickly when single so there are not a huge amount in your dating pool at any given time whereas shitty people of both genders can't maintain relationships long so they flood the dating pool.

woolleybear · 2019-01-21T19:01:37+00:00

for every "good man" there are like 3-5 " good women"

I don't think there are any "good women" that would match 8 comparable metrics to the one's required for men.

ArcticFox2019 · 2019-01-21T20:55:40+00:00

I think #8 is your bottleneck.

If you live in a major metropolitan city "waiting for sex" is extremely hard to achieve because people are very sex positive here.

Given that men generally enjoy sex very much, you would have to be much better looking/richer than the other girls who wants sex early on to get a "good man"

[deleted] · 2019-01-22T03:02:55+00:00

Not sure what it is and I hope I’m wrong but reading these replies and the way you seem to just needle people makes me think your info is totally made up

Eastuss · 2019-01-22T08:30:03+00:00

Men aren't women. Men do not value women like women value men. Women aren't valuable for the same reasons men are.

It makes no sense for you to qualify a woman of being a "good woman" just because she would be a good man.

Men who fit your standards are going to be rare and that is right, but all your comparison with your so called good women is just utter garbage. You talk about the selfish and entitled men who think they can get free sex for having their shit together, but you sound exactly like them to me. You are not a good woman and none of your female friends are, you can bitch all you want that men do not fit your criterias but you do not fit men's criteria as well, you deserve no more than an average man.

HeavyCurtains · 2019-01-22T11:08:14+00:00

I meet every one of your requirements except I'm 21. I know lots of other engineers that are young and meet all of your requirements (besides age); pretty much every engineer I know.

Except the thing is that although we are "good men" (by your definition, barring age), we are easily the least desirable in our age group. And the argument "your time will come, just wait until you're older" is not very convincing or reassuring. At my age, being a "good man" is a death sentence if you want to find a "good women". It's easy enough to find "bad women", though.

P.S. I went to church regularly for over a year and there were pretty much the same number of women as men (this was at college, so all of the members were college students). The women were not "good women", generally.

lucajones88 · 2019-01-21T17:40:05+00:00

Point 3 is a strange one and not one I’d considered many women cared about and more of a male worry.

If a man has most of the rest then point 3 will trip him up and maybe you should talk to your sisters about why that is.

Plenty of men attain your other ‘must haves’ in order to get the sex that is literally thrown at them by women when they reach that point.

Good read though and I definitely appreciate the insight!

wtffellification · 2019-01-21T19:50:51+00:00

Yeah, these days you gotta be either lucky or consistently conscientious, probably both, to "ride with the wave of capitalism".. I lost at least 5 years by struggle practically imposed on me, I am now 24, I doubt I will catch up soon enough to make it by your standards at the right time.. even though I truly want to and am doing what I can. to squeeze in there

damaskrose · 2019-01-21T20:01:46+00:00

is a loving, supportive, and good person who is willing to wait for sex until a serious relationship or marriage happens and isn't manipulative or abusive or tempermental

Really, this is the only thing that's difficult to find. All the others are easy.

TheMarbleSlab · 2019-01-21T20:40:56+00:00

Because we've learned women have their own madonna/whore complex, beta bucks and alpha fucks. Beta bucks has become uncool and not worthy of respect.

0kool74 · 2019-01-22T15:51:03+00:00

I'm having a hard time determining if this is just a troll post, a long-winded attempt at humor, or if you're just a complete fucking idiot! All that stuff you listed? Shit woman you just swiped at least 50% of the male population. Hell, I know at least 30 of them just off the top of my head that meet ALL of that. But I think it's dubiously sneaky how you threw in that "above 4/10 in looks" so nonchalantly. The men here aren't stupid. You may think they are, but they're not.....as evidenced in commentary that's already here. What you're not saying in your steaming pile of rabid hyena dung, probably because you know you'll get roasted for it, is that you are primarily looks focused.....and it's a hell of a lot more than some 4 out of 10......and you only look at the other factors AFTER that is met.

And has a low n-count? Really?? Seriously??? And you're going to be satisfied with a guy who's relatively inexperienced sexually.....you won't have a problem with that and would not be looking to hop on other dick? I don't buy that for a minute. Riiiiiiiight. I've seem some pretty good delusion in women, but you actually take the cake. You put up this exhaustive diatribe to try and hide the fact that what you're pining for is an alpha male and we have absolutely no evidence whatsoever that you actually bring to the table what you're looking for other than to take your word for it. Bollocks!!!!

Here's an idea......how bout you post a picture of yourself so we at least know you're above 4/10 in looks.

AllahHatesFags · 2019-01-22T17:26:29+00:00

I will give you Paul Elam's answer to that question: If you have to ask where all the good men went, the answer is: away from you. There are plenty of good men out there, they are either just invisible to you because they aren't in the top 20%, they already found someone better than you, you didn't meet their standards, or they have GTOW.

[deleted] · 2019-01-21T17:16:25+00:00

Marriage is a scam

Christian_Kong · 2019-01-21T18:53:24+00:00

The most successful men I know hit marks 2,4,(sometimes)5 and (maybe, I doubt it but I do not know) 7.

This is who your 3-5 good women you know are happily dating. There is a lot more guys hitting more of the marks than the successful guys but they are not as high in criteria 4.

TheMarbleSlab · 2019-01-21T19:56:07+00:00

First of all, if you need to lower the standards I listed above what a "good man" is, that is an indicator that there are not enough "good men" out there.

That entirely depends on your definition of "good men". Arguably if the MAJORITY of men are like X and X isn't good enough for you you have high standards. That'd be like me demanding that every 50 year old looks like Marisa Tomei.

If I get to define what "isn't too much to ask for" I can put that boundary as high as I want. Instead, one should define "too much to ask for" based on what's actually readily available.

I don't know what the median income in your country is but except for point 1 most men should satisfy those criteria.

Lot's of men are between 24 and 39. More than there are women between 24 and 39. Significantly more.

You gotta actually bring arguments as to why this is a reasonable definition of "good men". I could equally define "good woman" as

Doesn't require men to have an income of 60k+.
Is between 18 and 25.
Willing to marry.
Doesn't sleep around.
Doesn't binge drink, binge eat, binge smoke or do drugs.
Has a job.
is a loving, supportive, and good person who is willing to wait for sex until a serious relationship or marriage happens and isn't manipulative or abusive or tempermental.
Isn't overweight.

and then start theorizing how many women would fulfill that. Also, if you earn 60k then why does he need to earn 60k as well? I'm not too familiar with the US but seing that the median income is 40k 60k should be enough to support a familiy?

RedSkeller · 2019-01-21T20:14:32+00:00

Let me define a "good man" A good man is a man who: 1) has a good job paying over $60k a year (in major metropolitan areas with a higher cost of living),

This is higher than average, unless you are in NYC/SF. Most men will have to graduate and work many years in their industry to move up to this. Which pushes up your age requirements right off the bat.

2) is between the ages of 24 and 39

At 24 making your required amount of money already pushes him into a higher bracket of SMV. He now is in the top 20% easily. If he's been single the majority of his life now in his late 30s, he's probably seen it all and is going to be that much harder to convince he found a unicorn and wants to get married after watching his peers get destroyed by divorce.

3) doesn't have a super high n count or track record of sleeping around,

Why do you care? You want a virgin or inexperienced guy who doesn't get you off? What's a respectable 'good guy' number. Once again, vague unwarranted standards.

4) is above a 4/10 in looks,

No way I believe this. Dudes need to be at least 7/10 or higher. You're telling me you'd gladly be with a soft body bald dude with yellow teeth? Because that's a 4.

5) has a car in cities where you need a car to survive

Reasonable request. Notice there is no standard here.

6) has an emergency fund if something happens to him, like his car breaking down or he loses his job

The majority of Americans don't have 2 grand in their bank accounts, let alone an emergency fund

7) is not under crippling debt and is responsible with credit cards

Once again, not the norm- as most people who went to college have student debts women and men.

8) is a loving, supportive, and good person who is willing to wait for sex until a serious relationship or marriage happens and isn't manipulative or abusive or temperamental

Why wait? There are tinder sluts giving it up for free and probably better than our third date where you reluctantly give me a duty OTPHJ. You're bringing the same non manipulative and non temperamental attitude to the table too right?

9) doesn't smoke weed or drink excessively (personally I hate alcohol).

I bet your definition of 'excessively' is more than 2 drinks a week right?

I would argue that the lack of 'good men' is more a symptom of an excess of 'bad women' than men behaving badly. Your standards are much higher than what the average guy actually is, and that's me reading it for what it is and not reading between the lines (I find it hard to believe you're not going to shit on a guy for having a beater car or settle for a 4/10). What are you bringing to the table again?

I know SO MANY women who meet the above criteria, that it is unbelievable. But when I think of the men I know out there who meet those standards, I can only count them on my hand.

Men don't want what women want and vice versa. I could care less if she makes 60k a year or is educated beyond high school. Will she be a good mother? Can I trust her? Is she a pain in the ass? Does she have hobbies/interests outside of social media/netflix? Can she cook or be supportive in my life? Does she have a good relationship with her dad or respect men? Did she not fuck around in college? She's at least a 6/10 without makeup. Now how many women can you count.

bwoodski · 2019-01-21T20:45:17+00:00

I fit all of that except for 3 and 9 (Love the reefer). The thing is, every woman wants that, so I have a lot of options.

Most importantly, what are you bringing to the table?

TheMarbleSlab · 2019-01-21T21:04:17+00:00

Lol at waiting for sex until marriage or a relationship. That is absurd, and no it isn't "good" it's stupid. No wonder you don't know many men like that, any guy who meets that criteria hopefully would have the self respect to not put up with such nonsense. And any man who would put up with such nonsense is either very low value and thus has no leverage, or is deeply religious and thus not likely to be in a urban area

petrichordium · 2019-01-21T21:13:44+00:00

but the young men tend to be mental space cadets

Absolutely disgusting comment to make while referencing your "churches". I'm not some atheist trying to have a "gotcha" moment either.

RadChadswell · 2019-01-21T21:46:26+00:00

for every "good man" there are like 3-5 " good women"

What's a "good woman"? Since you defined the bar for men, you'd have to let men define that bar for women for a fair comparison. I doubt that many would meet it. One reason so many men sleep around is because the women they meet pass "good enough to fuck" but not "good enough to marry".

I know SO MANY women who meet the above criteria, that it is unbelievable.

Men and women want different things. It's unreasonable to apply the same standard.

Lookist incels cry "but muh orbital rims are 7/10 why won't my looksmatch date me?" because they assume women rate men the same way they rate women, not counting their 17/10 autism and 1/10 mental health in the evaluation.

A good man is a man who:

I've surpassed 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 9. Low requirements. I'm also a loving, supportive partner, not manipulative, abusive or tempermental. But it sounds like 8 REALLY means a guy who will patiently wait till marriage without seeking sex or any risk of moving on to someone else, so I refrain from agreeing.

Here's the problem. Men who meet that standard have options. Other women like those traits too. That means we're not 27 year old virgins. Women liked us. We dated other women. If you didn't snag us back at 18 and marry your high school sweetheart, we slept around in between. That means most of these men either married young (low-n but not in the dating pool) or are high-n, failing #3.

A single, available desirable man with little past is rare... because he's desirable. You're not some special princess who catches his eye at age 30 when no others before did. If you're starting late, other women have been there first. Either those relationships succeeded (he's not single now) or they failed and he tried again with others (accumulating n).

The only exceptions are the late-bloomers, the ones who meet that standard now but were undesirable to women before. A late-bloomer who also meets your economic standards is indeed rare.

misunderstood_9gager · 2019-01-21T23:59:06+00:00

60k a year? Like why? That is a lot of effing money lol

darksoldierk · 2019-01-22T01:29:53+00:00

Every man I know, literally, each and every single one, has all of those traits except for "standard number 8". Ironically, I know maybe 1 woman who makes more than 60 k? I don't know a single woman who bought her own car, and I know 1 woman who actually owns her own place. I don't know a single woman with any kind of savings, much less an emergency savings.

Fact is, that standard is catered to women. There is no doubt that in your head, you are defining "loving, supporting and a good person" the way that YOU, as a woman, understand it. A "loving" woman to a woman is not necessarily a "loving" woman to a man. A "supportive" woman to a woman is not a "supportive" woman to a man. For example, I don't see a woman who sits there listening to my problems and agreeing with me as "Supportive". I don't think a woman cleaning the house for me is "loving" or a woman who plans a romantic dinner surprise or whatever is "loving". You understand? Men are loving and supportive in their own ways, and if you don't appreciate the way that men are loving and supportive, then maybe you should spend the rest of your life with one of those women who clearly meet your romantic partner criteria better than most men.

And then the laughable "is willing to wait for sex". Honey, sex is important to men. You know your list of 9 things? well for men ,that lists consists of about 5 things, and 2 of those things probably involves sex in some form or another.

I find it interesting how you said that for every good man there are 3-5 "GOOD" women without defining what a good woman is. Are you expecting that men agree with your criteria of a good partner and are assuming that a good woman for you is also a good woman for men?For example, I don't agree that the only good women out there fall between the age of 24 and 30.

DaphneDK42 · 2019-01-22T01:58:11+00:00

> I know SO MANY women who meet the above criteria, that it is unbelievable.

Meeting those criteria doesn't make her a good woman though. Also, if you're looking at $60k when the average is much lower, you are going to find very few in the lower age range. People need time to establish their career before moving to an above average income bracket. For men in their 20s you should look for potential instead.

In any case, what's so bad about things like school teachers, police officers, etc.? Perfectly respectable middle class professions which in general don't make 60k.

Tie5o11 · 2019-01-22T02:10:45+00:00

I know a few guys who fill all the above criteria, and struggle to meet women. I know guys who meet maybe half of those and get lots of women. Women vote with their vaginas. And since young women are more desirable to men, sexually speaking, its young womens vaginal votes that shape men.

The guys I know who meet the criteria are your typical beta males. Good dudes, average looking. Have good traits, but wont sweep you off your feet with their charisma or what not. Women don't seem to notice them nearly as much.

There's also a regional component I am sure. Coastal cities will have more put together people of both gender, than rural towns or what not. Even between cities, there will be a difference. Women in the San Francisco Bay Area can select from a plethora of men who meet your requirements, while as you move towards the North East US the gender ratio begins to skew more female.

trail22 · 2019-01-22T04:27:25+00:00

Define a 4/10 in looks. I think everything is very possible.

To me most women will reject a guy who is shorter then them. Who is not of their race often. Who was not born in this country.

I know plenty of guys who were exactly as you desribed and were single into their 40's because they were short non white guys .

Show me a 4/10 guy and put him on tinder. A real 4/10 guy will not get a match with anyone except for overweight women.

shonenhikada · 2019-01-22T09:29:27+00:00

Summary of female version of a good man in point form:

So a man who makes at least 60k/year (that puts u in top 20% in america)
Must be between 24 and 39 (arbitrary age restriction for a man to be considered "good")
Must have some experience but not be with too many women
Must be at least 5/10 (average in looks)
Must have a car
Must have emergency funds for himself if something bad happens (so no financial support from you)
Must not have much debt on him
Must be loving, supportive and willing to wait for sex until marriage and relationship even though girls these days are doing porn more readily and doing all the nasty shit for chad, tyrone, jamal, change, Jose within 3 hrs of meeting them.

DeeplyDisturbed1 · 2019-01-22T12:28:25+00:00

I read some of the comments below. But in order to give any sort of answer, we need to know how you define a "good" woman.

If you would define them using the exact same criteria, then you have some more work to do on your definitions. Men and women often want and need different things in a partner.

I also think you need to be honest about #8. Are you saying that there are 3-5 women who are chaste to every man who is chaste? The data indicates otherwise, so I would need to see YOUR data set on this one. Not just your personal observation.

I get it that you are pissed off. A lot of us are. American culture has changed for the worse and is going to get worse. There are ways to work around what has happened, but that is getting harder too.

Rather than hold onto the views you apparently hold onto, I recommend the following:

Let go of the idea of marriage. If you find a truly good man, he is extremely unlikely to marry any woman under the current conditions. If you find a man who WILL sign that contract, then you have a foolish man on your hands. What other horrible contracts and promises is he capable of?
Stop trying to breed more gender hatred. We get it - your feminist professor was amazing. But this ignorance tends to isolate people. A man can detect very quickly when a woman has this deep resentment. Any man with self-respect will walk away from such a woman and that woman will be left with the other sorts of men. Then their views will reinforce. Do you get how that works?
Your criteria for a good man are arbitrary and will get you a lot of negative results in your life. You might reevaluate those.

Good luck.

TheMarbleSlab · 2019-01-22T13:10:53+00:00

is willing to wait for sex until a serious relationship or marriage happens

This is only acceptable if she is a virgin.

tia-now · 2019-01-22T13:34:50+00:00

Couple thoughts as someone who mostly fits your description of a "good man" ...

1) Many of us got married young and did our best to make it work, because that's the kind of men we are.

2) Before we were married, a lot of the "good women" didn't notice us for various reasons. Let's just say "surface value" was much more important to them at the time, and they had no idea that the guy they were passing up now was the man they would want in a few years.

3) Many of us are back on the market, or were always there but not where and how you're looking.

The standards listed above are DEFINITELY going to weed out a lot of men who are objectively "good" and relatively "great", and the men that DO fit every one of your criteria are going to either already be taken or aware that they can have their own incredibly high standards. I'm sure you're a "good woman", but ... good luck!

TheMarbleSlab · 2019-01-22T16:03:08+00:00

There is a shortage of reasonable standards. Do you understand that your description unqualifies a enormous size of the population? Like this one:

has an emergency fund if something happens to him, like his car breaking down or he loses his job

It unqualifies 3/5 of the people (not men) alive in the US! You are crazy if you think someone with all these attributes are easy to find or even possible to the average woman.

I know SO MANY women who meet the above criteria, that it is unbelievable.

You know why your description is probably unrealistic? US census. This description alone about money, age and credit restricts those persons to less than 3% of the population. (Way more as I made it by head)

Or you live in mid of the rich and powerful of your community, seeing only the best of the best (like myself) or you are just plainly lying. Please do not lose the thread of reality.

But when I think of the men I know out there who meet those standards, I can only count them on my hand.

Like I said. your standards which are bad. Not the population. Again. Your standards are screwed. And I kind of understand why. Religion. Please live the world by what it is. Stop daydreaming. Thinking really hard about something will not change anything in the world if you do not move yourself.

You can or look to way more men. Like some more dozens of thousands. Or just decrease your standards. Do what you will otherwise you will probably end up alone.

AllahHatesFags · 2019-01-22T17:22:36+00:00

Your post made it to r/Whereareallthegoodmen.

Pastelitomaracucho · 2019-01-22T21:30:48+00:00

I can't change your view. You are right.

If a man has the characteristics you list, chances are they are already married or they just want to keep having fun - or as you say, they aren't good men any longer. Whelp!

Women have commoditised sex and cheapened out the value of commitment. We are loving it, tbh.

BenPennington · 2019-01-23T03:32:16+00:00

Let me define a "good man". A good man is a man who: 1) has a good job paying over $60k a year (in major metropolitan areas with a higher cost of living), 2) is between the ages of 24 and 39, 3) doesn't have a super high n count or track record of sleeping around, 4) is above a 4/10 in looks, 5) has a car in cities where you need a car to survive 6) has an emergency fund if something happens to him, like his car breaking down or he loses his job 7) is not under crippling debt and is responsible with credit cards 8) is a loving, supportive, and good person who is willing to wait for sex until a serious relationship or marriage happens and isn't manipulative or abusive or tempermental 9) doesn't smoke weed or drink excessively (personally I hate alcohol).

Unicorn; for the student loans and income requirement parts.

mistercheeez-o____O- · 2019-01-23T03:41:05+00:00

I agree, but the manosphere is an umbrella of many virtual communities that may oft times be at odds. The MRAs, MGTOW and RP may mostly agree on the current state of affairs in terms of relations between the sexes, but their conclusions may differ.

The modus operandi for the MRAs is egalitarian, as they believe, such as feminists believe, that the criteria for eligibility have to change, or equalize rather. In virtue of this, what you have described above should not be considerations of eligibility moving forward, or if they must be, than they should be at a lesser degree.

The MGTOW prescribe a strict doctrine of individualism. So when they talk about eligibility, it is most often to critisize the feminist narrative, and to expose the hypocrisy of a culture that encourages men to alter their roles and yet simultaneously punishes them for not living up to these roles. You can't forget that the MGTOW posite that men should live their lives with limited romantic involvnent with women altogether. Eligibility becomes a non issue if one were to apply their ideology philosophically. I think it's a common misconception. To them, the criteria you listed above are in accordance with one of their central arguments; women form long-term mating relationships with men in order to obtain resources, support maybe, but most certainly not because they love them.

RP is similar to MGTOW, and use similar verbiage most often in comparison with the MRA, but their conclusions are more machavelian. I don't think i need to unpack how that is on this of all threads. Lol

I agree many are failing at meeting eligibility, and women are exceeding us. I think there are some psychological issues there that need to be addressed. I know I need to figure this out in my life too.

virtualvirgincake2 · 2019-01-23T09:43:20+00:00

You complain of a lack of 'good' men suitable for marriage but what are YOU offering.

Others have pointed it out but you're blaming everyone else except yourself.

Women can compete financially, socially with men and even surpass them. What is their reason for getting into a relationship with you...? Why do they need to or want to? You guys seem to have it figured out.

I dont even agree with this viewpoint but I do sympathise with it. Women complain endlessly about a lack of real men but then offer absolutely nothing back.

Sprach_McGrachan · 2019-01-23T18:38:46+00:00

>A lot of men think that because they have a reasonably good job and aren't living in poverty, that they suddenly have a license to be weird and sleep around with tons of women and be "playboys".

What a stupid idea this is.

sandal_on · 2019-01-21T22:11:44+00:00

Want good men? Easy. First you need a society who encourages men , supports men and holds men responsible. This is down through these steps below.

Reduce women's right to a child's and make either her father or husband responsible for her.
Introduce Islam gradually into the society by meritocracy. Make the mosque a gathering place and the leader responsible for a part of a community. This way the leaders and the community holds men responsible.
Take away women's right to vote and also men's. Make only it so men who have proved who have understanding with practice eligible to vote.
Introduce sharia gradually into the society as the new law and change society into a meritocracy.

This is a rough short guide but it is how a society produces stable amount of good men who can be hold accountable if they screw up later.

AutoModerator · 2019-01-21T16:40:02+00:00

Attention!

You can post off topic/jokes/puns as a comment to this Automoderator message.
For "CMV" and "Question for X" Threads: Parent comments that aren't from the target group will be removed, along with their child replies.
If you want to agree with OP instead of challenging their view or if the question is not targeted at you, post it as an answer to this comment.
OP you can choose your own flair according to these guidelines., just press Flair under your post!

Thanks for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion!

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

Title	CMV: There is a shortage of eligible, "good men" who are family and marriage oriented
Author	TheMarbleSlab
Upvotes	20
Comments	471
Date	January 21, 2019 4:40 PM UTC (7 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/aibu64/cmv_there_is_a_shortage_of_eligible_good_men_who/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/cmv-there-is-a-shortage-of-eligible-good-men-who.257697 https://theredarchive.com/post/257697

Comments