Toxic Masculinity is bad for men and leads to depression and higher suicide rates

YetAnotherCommenter · 2018-09-06T03:58:13+00:00

I'm one of the few MHRAs that actually thinks "toxic masculinity" is a perfectly legitimate concept, however I'm going to contest your use of the concept here.

For a self-help place, TRP is filled with a lot of negativity and bitter people. Personally, I think part of the reason is that they promote so much toxic masculinity.

You're presuming people were made negative and bitter by TRP. The reality is that a lot people were already negative and bitter because of real world experiences. TRP merely gave them a place to vent and a systematic theory (or "narrative" if you prefer) to interpret their experiences.

They probably think its cool and masculine, but it ultimately leaves them depressed. Toxic masculinity is the reason so many men feel like their worth is attached to the number of girls they have sex with.

And TRP created this apparently?

These aspects of traditional masculinity are absolutely encouraged by and reinforced in general mainstream society and are certainly not products of TRP. If anything, TRP is just reflecting currently-existing societal tropes and not creating them.

Not to mention, women are half of society too. They play a role in enforcing and perpetuating toxic masculinity, through whom they choose to give sex to.

Also, if opponents of toxic masculinity really want men to stop feeling the need to prove themselves to women and to stop judging their entire worth by how much puss they crush, why do so many of them oppose MGTOW? MGTOWs are men doing just that... rejecting socially-defined and female-bestowed "real manhood" and instead defining their own masculinity. Yet they are subject to intense levels of mockery, often by feminists and others who claim to be against traditional gender roles, and are accused of misogyny for refusing to define their masculinity through the crushing of puss as a metric.

It's why they feel the need to dominate others, to not appear weak or sensitive, to not talk to people about their problems.

Again, TRP doesn't create this. Also, TRPers are talking to each other about their problems and yet they get called evil neckbeard rape-supporting misogynists for doing so. Men in general society, when they appeal weak or sensitive, get bullied and shamed... including by feminists, who sometimes say "men need to talk about their problems" and when men do start talking about their problems immediately scream about how terrible it is that men are saying nasty things on the internet.

It probably also affects homosexual and bisexual males a lot, as their sexual nature is looked down upon due by other males.

As a bisexual man, I resent your attempt to appropriate my struggles and difficulties, shove them into a radical feminist box, and use them to back your agenda.

Gay and bisexual men are/were victims of discrimination, bullying and wide-scale social mistreatment long before TRP even existed.

Second, gay and bisexual men are not hated because they're seen as "womanly." First, plenty of gay men and gay male subcultures are macho as fuck (check out the leather world and tell me that they're effeminate). Whilst some gay and bisexual men are effeminate, and many are kind of a mix/in the middle (which, let us be honest, a huge amount of straight people are too), there are also many that are generally conventionally masculine.

In addition, if homophobia/biphobia amongst males were really just an epiphenomenon of a misogyny motivated by toxic masculinity, and that gay/bi men were socially considered "honorary women" then why are gay and bi men never recipients of chivalry/benevolent sexism/female privilege? "Never hit a woman" didn't save a single gay man from being gay bashed.

Not to mention, if femininity and womanness were the objects of hatred, why are gay men and bi men treated much more cruelly that bi women and lesbians? Why do lipstick lesbians get treated better than butch lesbians even though the latter are less feminine?

Not to mention, you're making the presumption that it is straight men whom have historically been behind homophobia. Whilst it is true straight men have often been homophobic/biphobic, women have frequently contributed to homophobia. Many mothers reject their gay or bi sons. When women gender-police men they often play the gay card as a way of humiliating that man or extorting them. Not to mention actual research shows women habitually refuse to date bisexual men even if the women in question are bisexual themselves.

It clearly leads to depression and a lot of pressure on men. So, if TRP is supposed to be self-help for men, why does it support toxic masculinity?

Because TRP isn't meant to be generic self-help. It is advice to make you sexually attractive to the typical/average member of the opposite sex. To the extent women are attracted to behaviors and mannerisms and appearances reflective of traditionally masculine norms, including some of the less-than-admirable aspects of such norms, TRP will encourage toxic masculinity because women don't want unmasculine men in general.

There is also an important point to be made; many of the men TRP addresses are hypomasculine. They need to become more manly (by traditional standards). They don't need to work on "finding a balance" or the like since they don't have enough of at least one of the core ingredients in the first place.

Ask yourself; why are men willing to throw themselves into such an environment and be so toxically masculine in the first place when toxic masculinity imposes substantial costs upon them. What benefit are they incurring costs in exchange for? Or are they trying to relieve greater costs which are being imposed upon them by others?

Ask yourself these questions carefully.

Personally, the happier and sexually successful males I know don't have or promote these toxic ideas and behaviors.

Probably because they already have (and/or have habituated) the traits necessary to be considered sexually attractive, and they don't need to put themselves into a conscious training program that pressures them to man up.

I'm no fan of toxic masculinity (or toxic femininity, for that matter). But I don't think your argument holds very much water.

CainPrice · 2018-09-06T02:18:21+00:00

When a man is not well-liked by women, and women don't want to date him or have sex with him, he gets depressed because he is lonely and horny and feels like he's missing out on an important part of life.

This has nothing to do with men tying their masculinity to how many women they fuck. Men who suck with women aren't depressed over a word definition. Patting them on the head and saying "There, there. You're still a real man. The way you're living your life is still valid" doesn't make men feel better.

Because men who suck with girls aren't depressed over the definition of masculinity and whether they meet it. They're not depressed over word games. They're depressed because they're lonely and nobody wants to date or have sex with them.

hammerhaunts · 2018-09-06T02:56:32+00:00

Personally, the happier and sexually successful males I know don't have or promote these toxic ideas and behaviors.

So how do the unsuccessful males reach this position?

larrythetomato · 2018-09-06T02:18:38+00:00

Toxic Masculinity is a straw man argument. It is basically defined as 'what is bad' so of course it is bad by definition. Your argument boils down to "Evil is bad and causes problems for society"

Start by defining what you personally mean by Toxic Masculinity.

statsfodder · 2018-09-06T03:08:00+00:00

Masculinity isn't toxic, feminine biased society is toxic to masculinity. Society has begun calling everything men do "Toxic" meanwhile it denies women do anything negative.

The rate of depression and suicide in men jumps after divorce, of which majority are initiated by women.

PearsOfWrath · 2018-09-06T02:34:04+00:00

This actually makes some sense.

One small problem though. 'Toxic masculinity' attracts women. And as long as that remains true, toxic masculinity will stay around.

Personally, the happier and sexually successful males I know don't have or promote these toxic ideas and behaviors.

They do, they just don't tell you. Why would they?

Eastuss · 2018-09-06T07:32:48+00:00

Toxic masculinity isn’t the issue, the lack of masculinity is.

It makes sense that men who lacked masculinity are having issue, then go to TRP, then display toxic masculinity behaviour while on their journey to get better.

However, I think, like lot of people, you are exaggerating your perception of how bad everything about TRP is. Don't forget that men's only acceptable way to express their emotions is through ANGER and that you are then demonizing them for doing so.

If you were a man you would know that 90% of the male kids permanently insult each other at every hint of frustration, and it means nothing.

Then add to this the female lens you have, and anything that doesn't benefit women directly is inherently wrong, bad, misogynistic, ect...

MoodyBrizo · 2018-09-06T02:50:31+00:00

If women didn't reward men that display toxic masculinity with sex tonight it would be eradicated tomorrow.

An_ConCon · 2018-09-06T02:22:25+00:00

What exactly do you see as toxic? I see these words thrown around a lot, but sometimes people confuse normal male behavior with negative behavior.

AlanHalworth · 2018-09-06T03:07:41+00:00

if TRP is supposed to be self-help for men, why does it support toxic masculinity?

TRP is self-help for men in the same sense that Coca-Cola is self-help. TRP helps men who want more sex, and Coca-Cola helps men who want a refreshing beverage. Neither of these entities is especially worried about any bad side effects, such as depression or tooth decay. Just as Coca-Cola corporation creates ads about happy people drinking Coca-Cola on the beach, RP creates stories about happy men having sex. So far, I am in total agreement with you.

The problem is that these men have a genuine need - mostly, a need for a fulfilling relationship. But they are then told "if you want a fulfilling relationship, you will first have to learn to seduce women." "You had a woman and she left you - it's because you didn't know enough RP theories." "RP is your insurance that you need never fear again that a woman will manipulate you or betray you." It's partly about safety or security.

I think that you can't break RP's spell just by saying "obsession with sexual prowess is toxic and leads to depression." The human need for intimacy is very strong; people will risk contamination or toxicity to get it. You have to convince these men that they can get a fulfilling relationship; show them how to do it. Compromise is important, but there are limits. It seems unreasonable to ask someone to date a person they aren't physically attracted to. I'm not saying there is no solution, but that the solution requires more than a slogan.

Salty-Bastard · 2018-09-06T02:44:04+00:00

Higher suicide rates in young men is caused by society disenfranchising them, making them feel like second class citizens compared to women, taught that they are all assumed rapists and predators, and that they are disposable. What's lacking is men teaching young men how to be masculine in a society that calls all masculinity toxic.

[deleted] · 2018-09-06T16:03:52+00:00

No. It’s masculinity itself coming under attack in this gynocentric society that makes men want to kill themselves because they:

1) have no good male role models

2) do not have a, get this, “safe space” to talk about male problems

3) are always on the receiving end of convenient male bashing

4) have been told all their lives that typical male behavior makes them broken human beings

5) have to compete in an education system that favors girls more than guys, which is failing our boys

Men compete. This isn’t world shattering knowledge. However, many men today don’t know how to compete or what they must do to compete. What you see is a lot of “failure to launch” scenarios. And when men do get together to form male only spaces where older men can teach younger men a thing or two about life. Lo and behold those fucking “egalitarians” are coming in telling the men they need to be more inclusive and accept women into those spaces. And what about some poor bloke who’s down on his luck and wants to reach out online for some actual advice on how to navigate the treacherous waters of the dating world? People pile up on him and label him with shit like “incels” (a small minority of them channel their frustration into woman hating, while many are just ackward, lonely guys who want a genuine relationship) or give him dumb useless advice like “you need to have konnnnnfeeeeedeeeence”.

With nowhere to vent, no one to talk to, no role models to look up to (notice how in the media the men who are the icons of masculinity have all been reduced to the role of bad guys? Sopranos, Breaking Bad, etc), no meanings to go by in this post modern world, no connection with people around him. Gets his entire gender called out routinely for things he has never done. Constantly worried if he will be labeled as a predator. Either toe the PC line and live as a cuck or risk more ostracizarion if he dares to speak his mind, speak his preferences, act upon his desire (to look at women, to approach attractive women, or simply even expressing his attraction) Color me surprised if the thought of necking oneself has never went through his mind.

And we keep calling it toxic masculinity. Quit your god damn projection, it’s the society that’s being absolutely toxic to men today.

LUClEN · 2018-09-06T03:17:28+00:00

Toxic masculinity is largely bolstered by heterosexual women who reward the men who pursue it with their affection. It's circular, but there's evidence, across basically every mammal species, that women perpetuate it.

It's mostly bad for loser males: the human equivalent of the ram who loses the butting contest.

[deleted] · 2018-09-06T11:15:34+00:00

When my wife suggested an open relationship after 2 years of a near dead bedroom, I was at rock bottom. Depressed. Little self worth. I direction.

Finding the red pill has turned that all around. I'm doing things for myself now, so that I can be the rock my family needs. I eat better, work out every day, spend much more time reading and working instead of wasting time. I spend more quality time with my daughters.

I'm no longer depressed. I have positivity and energy. The bedroom is no longer dead. My kids and wife are all better off for me being better, myself. I make decisions. I do things I want to, to improve my life, and subsequently my family's. I take charge and stand my ground. I demand my wife bring as much to the relationship (including sex) as I do.

It all comes down to the person. MRP in particular, makes men focus on themselves first. Where they take that is up to the man.

analt223 · 2018-09-06T13:41:39+00:00

It has nothing to do with "men want to cry". Men want to be attractive. To 1 woman, multiple, who cares.

The main problem is that every piece of advice to men (even from feminists when being honest), is pretty much entirely why there is a patriarchy.

"Improve your career", "Get more skills", "Become useful", "Have more hobbies", "Lose some weight/gain some muscle", etc.

And then you wanna know why "all the directors in hollywood are men", "why all the biggest DJs in the club scene are men", "why bitcoin is a boys club".

Its fucking stupid.

MMDT · 2018-09-06T02:29:18+00:00

Are animals suffering from toxic masculinity because they base their lives around mating with females?

NalkaNalka · 2018-09-06T04:06:48+00:00

What leads to depression and a shit life for men is not being masculine enough.

Red pillers would know since the majority of them ended up at TRP because they were not "toxically masculine" enough and that gave them shit results.

Telling them to go back to not being about to get laid, to go back to being depressed disrespected and treated like a doormat is hilarious.

You want "toxic masculinity" to stop being a thing? simple, you just need to get women to be attracted to wimps, feminine guys and doormats. Good luck with that.

KikiYuyu · 2018-09-06T03:29:38+00:00

What even is toxic masculinity? Why even gender negative behaviour? Being bitter and mean is bad, the end.

RooseChange · 2018-09-06T03:42:41+00:00

Toxic masculinity is the reason so many men feel like their worth is attached to the number of girls they have sex with. It's why they feel the need to dominate others, to not appear weak or sensitive, to not talk to people about their problems.

What a coincidence. All things women generally select for. Or do you think virgin, weak, sensitive, doormat guys who talk about their problems are really playing the game at the same level?

higherpublic · 2018-09-06T04:05:48+00:00

TRP does not promote toxic masculinity. It defines the realities of biological differences between men and women so that men know how to act in order to be viewed favorably enough to have success with women, and in life in general. It is an underground safe space so that men can discuss how to be effective at their endeavors in life without being shackled to or being forced to prance around PC perspectives. It’s growing prominence is a response to the massive outgrowth of men who cannot be worth a damn in society currently, and want some hard truths laid out to them. Again: it is not a safe space for misogyny, it is a space free from political correctness.

There may be individuals who participate in the sub who spew actual toxic renditions of masculinity, but that’s true of virtually every discussion anywhere if there are men involved.

Be very careful how you speak about “toxic masculinity”. Point out exactly what classically masculine behaviors are toxic, and why. Instances of “Toxic” masculinity should be the outlier, not the norm. If you subscribe to the notion of “toxic masculinity” but struggle to find behaviors that are truly toxic AND inherent to only men, you are likely justifying lingering misandry.

ifeelfuckingterrible · 2018-09-06T08:00:45+00:00

the reason so many men feel like their worth is attached to the number of girls they have sex with

Men value sex with women BECAUSE THAT IS THEIR INSTINCT! They are literally born to desire sex with women, if they weren't then we wouldn't be here today! You can't just tell men "no, stop wanting sex with women" and they'll just be like, "oh! OK."

why they feel the need to dominate others, to not appear weak or sensitive, to not talk to people about their problems

Guess what sugar tits, these are all coincidentally behaviors that most women find attractive in men, whether you want to believe it or not. But you'd rather blame pressure to behave in these ways on some abstract concept that comes out of nowhere like that makes more sense? As if pressure to be "masculine" from...no one in particular, would be more influential than noticing what behavior women tend to approve of and reward.

also affects homosexual and bisexual males a lot, as their sexual nature is looked down upon due by other males

Lmao, yeah sure. It is only men look down on homosexuals, women NEVER do that! Also it can't be that men are afraid of being perceived as gay since it might hurt their chances with women.

"Toxic masculinity" is just a vague term that you're using to describe whatever you think is bad, and it's bad because you say so. If women really wanted to stamp out "toxic masculinity", they wouldn't just be telling nerds on the internet how to act, they would also back up their words with ACTION. They would stop sleeping with men who display "toxic masculinity" altogether. So maybe you should aim your message at women first if it is sincere and you actually hope to accomplish anything.

DevilishRogue · 2018-09-06T08:17:39+00:00

Toxic masculinity doesn't exist. It is just a term to denigrate men's sacrifice of their own interests on behalf of women. The depression associated with it is caused by women's judgement and reinforced by men policing it on behalf of women. Calling it toxic masculinity is doubly disingenuous as it ignores that the issue is actually caused by women on behalf of women.

TRP only addresses this as beta behavior because that is as far as it is relevant for TRP i.e. where it is self defeating with regard to sexual success, because that is what TRP is about.

I_sort_by_new_fam · 2018-09-06T11:06:49+00:00

well this comment section is worse than expected.

genethedog · 2018-09-06T12:32:51+00:00

Oh God. Toxic masculinity is just the latest shaming buzzword. Like seriously, what is it? And as far as I'm concerned, if there's going to be a conversation about toxic masculinity, where's the talk about toxic femininity. Oh right, it's on the MGTOW red pill board. Like c'mon.lets stop pretending that women are fucking angels and that they don't have primal drives that make them do shit that blows men's minds.

The female isn't the default axis from which everything should be measured. If that's the case then why can't men assume they are the default for measurements? After all, that is what the battle of the sexes boils down to. And if women didn't feel entitled to having children, then all the problems go away.

Why do women feel entitled to have children no matter how terrible a mother or bad their circumstances or awful choice of father? Because their biology tells them so and so does culture. But that doesn't mean it's right.

Men were the choosers of which women were good breeding until feminism. What woman goes "I'd be a terrible mother"... The same amount of people that say "I'm a terrible driver"... The answer is lol fucking zero. But we all know that can't be the case.

[deleted] · 2018-09-06T14:18:02+00:00

toxic femininity is bad for men and the happiest men are the ones who dont give a flying fuck about what any feminists, blue pillers, women ever say

lucky_beast · 2018-09-06T17:53:08+00:00

ITT: Bloops put up the flimsiest arguments in existence and are effortlessly slaughtered by terps

Really goes to show how much the mods have to censor terps for bloops to even stand a chance lol

abaxeron · 2018-09-06T07:31:34+00:00

For a self-help place, TRP is filled with a lot of negativity and bitter people.

Result-oriented places tend to have smaller amount of sunshine and rainbows than sunshine-and-rainbow-oriented places.

Personally, I think part of the reason is that they promote so much toxic masculinity. They probably think its cool and masculine, but it ultimately leaves them depressed. Toxic masculinity is the reason so many men feel like their worth is attached to the number of girls they have sex with.

Oversimplification. Claiming that TRP (the sub and the Manospherian metaphor) is about attaching the number of girls that men have sex with to men's worth - is as dumb as saying that feminism attaches a woman's worth to the amount of fetuses she has aborted. That's not exactly how any of this works. MGTOW monks use TRP as a term and don't have sex with women; and discourage others from having sex with women.

Finally, even the headline of your post is more-or-less inconsistent: if "toxic masculinity" leads to higher suicide rates AND depression, why t/h are depression rates higher among women?!

[deleted] · 2018-09-06T08:20:21+00:00

I think it’s important for OP to define toxic masculinity here.

_Last_Man_Standing_ · 2018-09-06T10:49:49+00:00

If men and women are the same as the leftists say...
And if "toxic masculinity" is a real thing...
Then there should be equivalent of it in female behavior... or "toxic femininity"...

@OP - can you give me an examples of toxic femininity please ?

[deleted] · 2018-09-06T13:15:53+00:00

First you have to define "toxic masculinity". You can't even proceed until you have a working definition.

Even then, you're wrong, because masculinity/TRP isn't what's causing depression and pressure on men. What's causing depression and pressure in men is an inability to compete in an SMP due to (1) completely incorrect info literally from birth; and (2) constant sandbagging and disadvantaging literally from birth.

GirlsHateMtgplayers · 2018-09-06T14:51:33+00:00

Female hypergamy is bad for men because it encourages "Toxic masculinity" in men. Since women are most attracted to men who exhibit a lot of traits associated with "Toxic masculinity", in order to be liked by women (and get laid), men need to be "toxicly masculine".
So what's really hurting men is "Toxic femininity" - the female attraction towards men who display toxic masculinity.

darksoldierk · 2018-09-07T03:54:46+00:00

See, your problem is, you refuse to admit to women's behavior. You've never been a guy talking to his girlfriend or wife about something that bothers him. Women don't encourage that kind of behavior, they say they would, but their body language and their attitude doesn't.

It isn't masculinity that ties a man's worth to the number of sexual partners he's had, it's women. I think it was asked here if women are willing to get involved with a man in his late 20's with very little sexual or relationship experience. Most women said that they wouldn't, because to them, it's a red flag. It's women who think that men who are virgins in their 20's are losers. And guys are forced to deal with it. I have a friend who is an engineer. I mean, this guy, he never went after women, he always had women go after him. He was always talking to women at parties, or when we went to restaurant, but he stayed away from relationships and sex just because he was focusing on his studies and on his career. He has a stable job now, but he's having problems finding a girlfriend.

The idea of toxic masculinity is women projecting their toxic thoughts and their toxic behavior onto men. Men see the world for what it is, it isn't toxic judge men based on their relationship history, it's the way of the world. Women do it to men, and men do it to men. Women just want to blame men for this kind of behavior.

Feminism fought for women's rights, but those rights left a gap in society which women are now expecting men to fill. Men didn't want those duties, they never fought for them. Men are being expected to "pick up the slack". It's like, if you and i drive one car, then one day I decide to sell our car with automatic transmission, and buy one with manual transmission and tell you to drive the car, when you say "what? I didn't want a manual transmission, I don't even know how to drive it and don't want to learn" I respond "what do you mean you don't know how, that's your problem, you don't get a choice". That is what's adding pressure on men. Suicide is increasing because men are lost. They don't know their roles anymore. They are being antagonized by women, they are constantly bombarded with messages that they are bafoons, rapists and pedophiles. They are forced to go through harassment in the workplace training in order to make the workplace more comfortable for women, and are constantly told that they are violent and dangerous by nature. YOU do this when you use the term "toxic masculinity". Men are intentionally disadvantaged in the education at the elementary level and are systematically being removed from higher level education. They are being persecuted against in the hiring process (as the experiment in australia proved just a few months ago), are being blamed for a wage gap that doesn't exist, and are being kicked out of the workplace to fulfill gender quotas in the workplace. In family court, men are being denied their right to have regular access to their own children (and no, 2 weekends a month isn't "regular")

Of course suicide for men is going up, they are being disadvantaged and vilified at every stage of their lives and are still being told that they are privileged.

jackandjill22 · 2018-09-06T03:17:47+00:00

Ludicrous reasoning.

MGTOWManofMystery · 2018-09-06T05:07:27+00:00

There's no such thing as toxic masculinity.

toronto87 · 2018-09-06T03:59:16+00:00

No the female supremacy movement does that

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[deleted] · 2018-09-06T04:52:14+00:00

For a self-help place, TRP is filled with a lot of negativity and bitter people. Personally, I think part of the reason is that they promote so much toxic masculinity.

They're a pickup artist place, most of their posts are about attracting women. Having said that it's the blind leading the blind because nobody who's successful is involved with self help forums.

Also toxic masculinity is attractive to many women so hence why it exists (even among feminist women gasp). However redpillers aren't masculine men (but they aren't feminine, they're inbetween the two extremes).

Toxic masculinity is the reason so many men feel like their worth is attached to the number of girls they have sex with.

Because it is a huge part of your status. Tell people you don't attract many (or any women) and watch their respect for you drop to zero. High school never ends, it just begins again.

It probably also affects homosexual and bisexual males a lot, as their sexual nature is looked down upon due by other males.

Women hate bisexual men more than men do.

It clearly leads to depression and a lot of pressure on men. So, if TRP is supposed to be self-help for men, why does it support toxic masculinity? It clearly leads to depression and a lot of pressure on men. So, if TRP is supposed to be self-help for men, why does it support toxic masculinity?

More like genetics or failing at life leads to depression. If you had toxic masculinity and you were succeeding in life you would be less depressed no?

Personally, the happier and sexually successful males I know don't have or promote these toxic ideas and behaviors.

Awesome good for them. Some men are losers and get desperate. So they become toxic, it's their only hope after everything else lead to nowhere.

trail22 · 2018-09-06T05:02:40+00:00

The reason incels in the sense of guys who cant date and hate women, exost because they have never had a positive female person in their life.

Toxic masculinity honestly does urt them, but more because it is a part of society that rejects them.

[deleted] · 2018-09-06T07:33:22+00:00

For a self-help place, TRP is filled with a lot of negativity and bitter people.

I mean... if they weren't experiencing negative feelings like bitterness why would they need a "self-help place" to begin with?

MindTheFuture · 2018-09-06T09:13:33+00:00

Ever read that RPW dominance-lvl/treshold post? (https://www.reddit.com/r/RedPillWives/comments/8s728s/a_new_way_of_looking_at_relationship_dynamics/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=usertext&utm_name=RedPillWives&utm_content=t3_8tx02m)

I think you’re not seeing beyond your own group and ignoring the views women who see high dominance men most desirable.

SilentLurker666 · 2018-09-06T10:40:13+00:00

For a self-help place, TRP is filled with a lot of negativity and bitter people. Personally, I think part of the reason is that they promote so much toxic masculinity. They probably think its cool and masculine, but it ultimately leaves them depressed.

Typical SJW; putting the cart before the horse. TRP exist because men seeks answers for all the problems they have in their lives which caused the negativity and bitterness, not the reverse. It's like you are trying to blame alcohol anonymous for promoting alcoholism.

Toxic masculinity is the reason so many men feel like their worth is attached to the number of girls they have sex with. It's why they feel the need to dominate others, to not appear weak or sensitive, to not talk to people about their problems. It probably also affects homosexual and bisexual males a lot, as their sexual nature is looked down upon due by other males.

The problem is that for a BP like you... any sign of masculinity is considered toxic... the truth is male nature is competition. Male, especially younger male desire sex and female companionship, and it's women and society's expectation for men not to appear weak.

It clearly leads to depression and a lot of pressure on men. So, if TRP is supposed to be self-help for men, why does it support toxic masculinity?

TRP supports masculinity; what's causing men to be depressed is society's conflicting message and expectations.

Personally, the happier and sexually successful males I know don't have or promote these toxic ideas and behaviors.

You don't see those virtue as toxic because they are happy and successful. Women only see masculinity as toxic when you see them lacking confidence and start pouring their feelings outs and venting our their frustration... it's hilarious because showing their feelings is exactly what you BP are trying to get these people to do. It's only toxic when it's negative feelings.

thoth5431 · 2018-09-06T11:40:15+00:00

Most self-help places are filled with negativity and bitter people. People who are doing well in life and happy usually don't need self-help. And the people who are doing well and happy in life usually don't spend much time in places overrun with negativity and bitterness, because it drags their mind down to that level.

Regardless, I think there's really two dominant camps of men when it comes to the sleeping with lots of women. There's the side who want to stick their dick in anything that moves, then there's the other side who is more driven to be monogamous. The two sides don't really interact in regard to sexuality, past casual locker room talk. I don't think I've ever heard another man say, "OH MAN FUCKED MY 100TH PUSSY!" And if some dude did, they'd probably get some smiles, nods, and good jobs to their face because it's not worth the conflict...or some "quit your bullshit, Doug." In my experience, the only dudes that genuinely encourage that behavior are other dudes who do that or who want to be that dude. And that isn't a majority of men.

You don't want to appear weak because everyone will use that against you. Every single woman, even the ones I'd consider good women, eventually threw my weakness and vulnerability back into my face to hurt me. But it's not just women. Plenty of men are bitches too. And frankly, though my circle of dude friends is pretty solid, they aren't really the kind of people who are good with personal problems. So no, I stopped talking about my problems with anyone but a therapist, because I know the therapist is legally required to keep their mouth shut.

It probably does affect homosexual or bisexual males, but I don't know. I'm neither so I'm not going to put words in their mouths. I do know a few guys that still look down on those guys, but it doesn't seem common in the circles I keep.

The happiest and sexually successful guys I know are generally independent, doing what they feel is right for them as a person. So, independent.

Toxic masculinity is just a byproduct of survival for men. Weakness and vulnerability are almost always taken advantage of by both men and women. TRP is just a response to that victimization, attracting men who were already depressed and unhappy, many of them who have been stabbed in the back. I think the shift to the heavy focus on sexuality is more due to the age demographics of the site. They aren't old enough to realize how much of a minefield women can be, and yes, I know men are shit too.

Also, according to your flair, you're a woman. So your assessment of how happy and sexually successful the men in your life is going to be subject to some variables, such as, how many of them are plastering a smile on their faces and lying to you for the chance to get in your pants?

ZodiacBrave98 · 2018-09-06T12:08:08+00:00

So, if TRP is supposed to be self-help for men, why does it support toxic masculinity?

It isn't self-help. It is a place to discuss sexual strategy ie. how to get laid.

Self-help ends up being a factor. But general life improvement is not the goal.

InformalCriticism · 2018-09-06T12:09:25+00:00

The one concerned with their own health go MGTOW; the truth does ruin some men. How they react to the truth is definitely a variable. However, calling the reaction to being shown how they had been lied to and taken advantage is not toxic masculinity.

Toxic masculinity is the reason so many men feel like their worth is attached to the number of girls they have sex with.

TRP teaches men that their value is not tied to women.

It's why they feel the need to dominate others, to not appear weak or sensitive, to not talk to people about their problems.

This is not true. A large volume of answers to asktrp often mentions counseling and mental services, but they insist on male counselors.

It probably also affects homosexual and bisexual males a lot, as their sexual nature is looked down upon due by other males.

This is bubble talk.

It clearly leads to depression and a lot of pressure on men.

Female nature is incredibly depressing, unsurprisingly.

So, if TRP is supposed to be self-help for men, why does it support toxic masculinity?

It doesn't. You wish it did, that much is clear.

Personally, the happier and sexually successful males I know don't have or promote these toxic ideas and behaviors.

Right, because they totally check in with you to police their thoughts and beliefs.

darudeboysandstorm · 2018-09-06T17:29:11+00:00

I think casual sex for men is very similar to being insta famous for a girl in modern times. It all comes down to a desire to feel desired. With the rise of things like social media etc, people are more inclined than ever to be seen as successful, cool, or just plain interesting. Casual sex is in a way, a means to proving to ones self they are that "cool," just like having a photo liked by 1000 people makes someone feel desired or special.

As a guy who hasnt had a long term relationship in about two years now, I find I get stuck in casual sex because most of the women my age seem immature or not worth spending long term time with. I think there is a lot more depth to why men keep certain women at a distance or to casual sex, but what in generally comes down to is those same feelings, and some women just dont make you feel like that.

TLDR we all wanna feel like we are with the right person.

yungvibegod2 · 2018-09-06T17:48:14+00:00

Wrong, when i was a fat fuck who never felt affection from females a year and a half ago I was depressed. I was the epitome of the classic “beta male”. I was constantly told “dont worry buddy you’ll find someone for you, looks dont matter” (JUST FUCKING LOOOOOOOL) by pretty female friends and sexually successful male friends, that shit never helped me. That was the blue pill.

Now that I am fitter, more confident and no longer see myself as a victim of circumstance, but rather seeing myself as having the ability to grow into an idealized visualized version of myself and constantly working towards that i’m significantly happier, sure i still struggle with depression but nowhere near when i was “blue pilled”.

The basic premise of TRP (if you remove the misogyny) is being responsible for yourself taking control of your life and no longer being a victim, and THAT is a liberating idea.

I’m also not really sure what you mean by toxic masculinity. From my understanding of the red pill it is an individual being the best version of themselves, so how is this toxic? I still enjoy “feminine” interests such as Art, Food, Music, Fashion, i’m just more into fitness, less victimized and more knowledgeable about what women truly want from men.

red_matrix · 2018-09-06T18:04:31+00:00

Toxic masculinity isn't a thing. Ignoring your own masculinity, not living naturally, leads to depression, anxiety, etc. Men need to "move", literally. Our sedentary lives are killing us. Men need to move, think and build things. Not sit in cubicles all day under fake lighting. Our body and brain chemistry are way out of whack.

atlantic68 · 2018-09-06T20:56:57+00:00

I agree theyre very negative but they were negative before the sub too.

They arent smart enough to know the difference between being a shitty or not to people

RedPill-BlackLotus · 2018-09-07T13:08:45+00:00

I found the red pill after I was on the plantation (married) so I come from married red pill.

For a self-help place, TRP is filled with a lot of negativity and bitter people.

To a woman or a emotionally weak man yes it would seem trp is full of bitter people. Anyone whoes feelings might get hurt needs to be weeded out.

Personally, I think part of the reason is that they promote so much toxic masculinity.

You don't get to label anything masculine as toxic. Females are attracted to masculinity. The masculine behaviour thats rewarded is what we shoot for. Don't listen to a woman about what's toxic about masculinity. Watch the men who are banging lots of woman to see what behaviour is rewarded. You yammering on about toxic masculinity is like a fish telling a fisherman not to use a hook. Why the fuck would I listen to a fish if I'm trying to catch a fish.

They probably think its cool and masculine, but it ultimately leaves them depressed.

We are the masters of our own destiny. If we allow anything to make us depressed then that thing has power over us.

Toxic masculinity is the reason so many men feel like their worth is attached to the number of girls they have sex with.

I don't think you fully understand the red pill. The main tenant is to make yourself more valuable the byproduct of that is more females attracted to you. If you choose to bang as many as you can thats a man's personal decision. We all walk our own path. Pussy is the end goal of a pickup artist. Self mastery and success in any personal endveor is the end goal of self actualized red pill men.

It's why they feel the need to dominate others, to not appear weak or sensitive, to not talk to people about their problems.

Weak men are taken advantage of. It's just the way it is. Sensitive people are easy to manipulate. We do talk about our problems, it's just with other men. The married red pill sub is nothing but men trying to fix the problems they caused to themselves.

It probably also affects homosexual and bisexual males a lot, as their sexual nature is looked down upon due by other males.

I'm attracted to men. I have mentioned it many times over on askMRP and guess what. Nobody gives a fuck. Everyone gets called a pussy faggot over there. I like pussy and I'm half a fag so its all good fun. Again, nobody gives a fuck! We all have enough on our plate dealing with the bullshit we did to ourselves. Besides, it's a lot easyer to dread your wife if she's intimidated by men aswell.

It clearly leads to depression and a lot of pressure on men. So, if TRP is supposed to be self-help for men, why does it support toxic masculinity?

It dosent. Rolo wrote a whole book on positive masculinity. We have all read it.

Personally, the happier and sexually successful males I know don't have or promote these toxic ideas and behaviors.

You don't get to define what a sexually successful male is. Only men get to define that.

The red pill fixed me and as a result fixed my marriage. For now.

Poster515 · 2018-09-07T16:54:35+00:00

Masculinity is just masculinity, and can be manifested in all types of negative and positive ways. At its core, masculinity and all associated hormones (eg testosterone) can fuel aggression, hostility, violence, all of which are key to survival. In times of peaceful civilization, certain types of expressions of masculinity become both less necessary and threatening to those with interests in maintaining societal stability - which is understandable - and yet this is why masculinity in part, and for some in its whole, is demonized and various manifestations labeled "toxic" as the SJW buzzword goes.

rassiamelo · 2018-09-09T05:08:42+00:00

I think people seek out TRP when they are in a negative space. Nobody who is doing well would need such a community (except for the fun game-playing aspects). So I think the toxic atmosphere is an unfortunate consequence of the members who are too jaded to seek out real connection.

niczar · 2018-09-06T08:24:08+00:00

"Toxic masculinity" is a meaningless expression. It means whatever suits those who use it, who incidentally conveniently and systematically fail to define it.

new2read · 2018-09-06T03:56:18+00:00

If that's not enough, all the sexually successful men are liberals.

goatismycopilot · 2018-09-06T13:17:42+00:00

The interesting thing about this thread as often happens is how many posters here are using it as an opportunity to shit on women rather than come up with suggestions to actually help men who deal with depression, suicide, and high incarceration rates.

Toxic Masculinity is bad for men and leads to depression and higher suicide rates

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