CMV: The "NiceGuy" trope, is nothing more than women takin out their frustration on shy/socially awkward men.

PPD-Angel · 2018-07-12T17:36:38+00:00

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KikiYuyu · 2018-07-12T19:53:42+00:00

"Niceguy" is used sarcastically. The "nice guy" trope applies to a man who acts nice, but as soon as he gets a whiff of rejection he becomes nasty.

A socially awkward, actually nice man is not a "NiceGuy™"

The nice guy you are talking about is not the nice guy people hate on.

officerkondo · 2018-07-12T17:26:19+00:00

The NiceGuy I'm talking about is the socially awkward guy that does not have any charisma, and uses kindness as a way to get a woman to notice him. This is the type of guy I am talking about.

This is not the NiceGuy that women are talking about. We are talking about guys who pretend to be our "friends" when they are actually just trying to fuck us. We are talking about the guys who, even when we directly say that we are not romantically interested or attracted, will say that they want to be our friends, only to later try to make a move or flat-out blow up at us that we are "manipulative".

I get it. A guy has to make a move to have a chance. But once you make a move on a girl and she shuts you down, MOVE ON. Unless you're truly capable of being her friend, don't stick around and keep pressing it.

S1imdragxn · 2018-07-12T21:12:21+00:00

Women are allowed to be repulsed by them.

I will say maybe a good relationship could open an otherwise shy guy up

Men feel good about getting some experience and can turn around from shy to confident

I get the impression that females have a distaste for bringing a guy out of his shell, the general instinct seem to be to get with someone already “whole”

OfSpock · 2018-07-12T21:44:27+00:00

Women mock nice guys because they're desperately searching for reasons to reject a man whom a "civilized and virtous" women ought to love.

No, women find not being attracted to someone quite a good enough reason. Some parts of society does try to shame women into not having this ideal. But mainly it's one of those awkward situations where you can't get the guy to leave and now you have to be the bad guy. Like it's late at night, you say to your last remaining dinner guests (an hour after the second last ones left) "This has been nice but we have to work in the morning" and they smile, nod and keep talking. Worse yet, when you finally get them to leave, they keep saying what a lovely time they had and hinting for another invite. You don't like their company but they won't stop trying to leech onto your time.

sublimemongrel · 2018-07-12T17:19:25+00:00

I don’t use that term very often tbh and I’ve only used it here on PPD when the concept comes up as a topic, never used it IRL. But when I have used it my intention was to refer to the dudes who get real mad and retaliate to a polite rejection. Like the stuff you often see on r/NiceGuys.

From what you describe the situation she is talking about in the video is referencing some dude a girl used for favors or whatnot - what terpers would likely call a “beta orbiter.” I could certainly understand the anger and frustration if a man was intentionally used in such a manner and found out the girl was bragging about it.

However, I tend to be charitable to posters here and when they say “nice guy” I assume they are referencing it the same way I have before, ie man who lashes out angrily after a polite rejection.

I can’t really get down with the whole “you just became friends with me because you wanted romance and that’s deceitful” definition because like almost all my BFs were friends first and yet I spent time getting to know them to see if I/they wanted something more. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with that, it’s pretty normal to me.

Library-brat · 2018-07-12T17:53:45+00:00

There’s a difference between a “Nice Guy” and a good guy. A “Nice Guy” is what women see often, and typically make fun of. The guy that is especially nice out of a desire to use them for sex. A good guy is someone who is kind, views a friendship as having potential to develop into a relationship, but not expecting that. A good guy treats women with respect, period. A “Nice Guy” treats women with respect..until they don’t give him what he mistakenly believes he’s entitled too. I don’t think you see a lot women ridiculing actual good guys.

Edit: grammar mistake

batman_is_dull · 2018-07-12T17:33:57+00:00

You are projecting. Naturally misogynistic men do not believe that women "should" date civilized and "virtuous" men. It's the nice guy who holds fast to this belief that he's actually kinder, gentler, more civilized, more virtuous, and would 'treat her better' than the man she actually chooses to date.

I don't go to that hilarious sub niceguys and show the funny ones to my wife to reinforce some coping mechanism because women "should" be dating the type of guys you think they should date. Strangely enough the nice guy always thinks that woman "should" be attracted to a guy just like him. No we go there to deliberately laugh and poke fun at delusional nice guys who fail to recognize reality no matter how many times it hits them right in the face. I get it it's really difficult to accept that you are not anywhere near as attractive a mate as you believe.

petrichordium · 2018-07-12T17:30:00+00:00

This is a very long version of the “No True Scotsman” fallacy. No true “nice guy” would act like a Nice Guy (tm).

I’m sure there is a perfectly smooth continuum of situations that run the ramp from total Nice Guy (tm) bullshit to the evil Machiavellian Woman who KNOWS a guy likes her and is exploiting his likes without the slightest intention of returning his affection.

Women who get yelled at on Tinder feel like the world is 90% Nice Guys. Men who haven’t learned their lesson on romance feel like it’s the opposite.

Personally i agree more with the women bc it seems like there are more Nice Guys than women who use men. The tinder experience is a day in day out flood of hot garbage. The nice guy who got burned is usually just one or a few traumatic experiences that have colored his understanding but he hasn’t fully learned from.

But maybe that’s just bc i am a selfish male slut who doesn’t spend time trying to feed nice tokens into the nice machine expecting sex.

LSTW1234 · 2018-07-12T18:48:14+00:00

Where are all these men who calmly accept rejection after investing so much time in a woman? I’ve never met any. Most guys who take the friends-first approach aren’t assholes, I have sympathy for them and I don’t think they deserve to be mocked, but they definitely don’t just accept a no. They try to convince you. They’ll mention all the things they’ve done for you, or you did for them, as if you‘re absurd for believing these are things “friends” do. They make you feel like a fool.

NietzscheanStoic · 2018-07-12T17:44:32+00:00

It's bullying. It's no different than say high school jocks and cheerleaders bullying nerds.

wtknight · 2018-07-12T18:15:59+00:00

“Nice Guys” are by definition of the trope guys who lash out because he feels that his niceness should be reciprocated with sex or a relationship from a woman. A man who quietly leaves a woman alone after being rejected is not a “Nice Guy,” and such a guy gets mocked by only the cruelest of women rather than by women in general.

2018-07-12T17:25:20+00:00

Naturally there is some slippery slope, where inconsiderate people will try and use this as cover for their own callousness.

JezebeltheQueen5656 · 2018-07-12T22:59:50+00:00

r/niceguys

browse at will and tell me those guys are the ones who rage or the ones being raged at.please and be as objective as possible. you are confusing NiceGuys with meek doormat males. this dude was the latter. NiceGuys are entitled pricks that push boundaries and threaten women. they should be mocked and humiliated.

Up2Eleven · 2018-07-12T23:07:34+00:00

It always hurts when you have unrequited love. Calling it "friend zone" doesn't in any way mean one feels entitled to anything. Men and women alike feel bad when they're into someone and the interest isn't reciprocal.

honeypuppy · 2018-07-12T23:38:13+00:00

I think it's complicated. It's not an either/or scenario of "entitled, misogynistic men think they deserve sex for niceness" or "women are taking out their frustrations on awkward men". There's such a wide continuum of behaviours and misunderstandings that it would be unhelpful to think in such binary ways.

A blog I enjoy, Slate Star Codex, has a couple of notable posts criticising "nice-guy shaming", Radicalizing the Romanceless, and Untitled (about computer scientist Scott Aaronson being attacked online by some feminists).

On the one hand, I do agree that some relatively benign "nice guys" are unfairly maligned by some feminists. On the other hand, I'd hesitate to malign feminists too much based on this. For one, the feminists SSC cites tend to sourced from places like Jezebel and blogs with names like "Bitchtopia" - probably not the most charitable and reasonable examples of feminists you can find. Secondly, even unfair feminists aren't necessarily being intentionally malicious - they may have had bad personal experiences that causes them to be extra sensitive to "nice guy" behaviour. Or maybe they're in a bubble where they think "/r/niceguys"-grade assholes are everywhere, which is less commendable (but probably no worse than thinking that hostile, hypocritical feminists are everywhere).

Probably the most misogynistic guy i know gets tons of success with women, most of the women he fucks are just another notch in his belt and he jokingly refers to the women as disposable fuck toys. You can get away with that when you're 6'3" with a swimmer's body and good facial aesthetics. Moral character has nothing to do with getting laid, that's why feminists attack 'nice guys', in order to rationalize a type of just world fallacy in their mind.

I think "feminists who complain about 'nice guys'" largely aren't interacting with guys like this, their social circles typically consist of a lot of nerds that exhibit "nice guy" behaviour, and so they tend to write about their own personal experiences. The women this guy is fucking are very probably not vocal feminists.

darknessbemyfriend · 2018-07-13T09:40:27+00:00

Every “nice guy” encounter I’ve had has NOT been shy or socially awkward guy at all. It has been someone that I kiinda know that wants to date. He’s usually super sensitive with a “tough guy” persona that is salty about his ex. He’s manipulative, condescending, entitled, and can’t understand why you wont fuck him because he thinks he’s a “nice guy”.

Honestly people that go “Don’t trust me I’m an asshole” end up being the most real, trustworthy and kind- they just beat themselves up too much.

Edit: Spelling

TwentyX4 · 2018-07-12T19:01:48+00:00

There are multiple kinds of Nice Guys, but the internet sucks at making that clear or admitting it. In general, the internet pretends that there's only one kind of Nice Guy and endlessly mocks him, leaving other (more sympathetic men) to feel like they're being mocked and degraded because he actually is a nice guy.

TLDR: The internet sucks at making distinctions.

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2018-07-12T21:53:51+00:00

I have had plenty of experiences with shy, socially awkward guys because my interests tend to attract those kind of guys. I assume we have a friendship. No favours, no gifts, 50/50 on everything. There is no flirting, no escalation and then after months of platonic convos about Dr Who - bam! He asks me out. I'm usually totally blindsided as there has been no hint of sexual chemistry, no flirting, nothing... This situation is really awkward for me. I hate having to turn them down. Compare this to a guy who the socially awkward guy might see as a douch who flirts with me, makes it clear hes attracted to me, builds sexual tension, seduces me and makes me feel sexy and desirable... He's the one I'll likely agree to a date with for obvious reasons.

newName543456 · 2018-07-12T23:20:38+00:00

I don't think it's taking frustration out on them though. They will bully them even without things going clearly wrong that would indicate any sort of built up frustration going on. I think it's just "kick the puppy" kind of thing.

Doom_and-Gloom · 2018-07-13T00:58:54+00:00

Karen Straughan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9XDb0nxSO4

Hey, look it's Girl Writes What back before she was shit.

nomansweb · 2018-07-13T12:20:52+00:00

The "nice guy" scenario has happened to me in reverse with the girl spontaneously "confessing" after a year of friendship and then getting bitter when I turned her down. Still I don't think the friendship was fake because of that or that she was manipulative or "entitled" (I hate that word, I mean in a way we all think we're good enough for someone to love us, otherwise we would kill ourselves) or is a bad person, I just think she was shy and have no hard feelings about the matter. I think it's sad that apparently many women view this behavior as evil when it's men doing it and I agree with the OP that at least some of the time it's a convenient rationalization for women.

2018-07-14T05:21:09+00:00

There’s a blog post called “nice guy TM”, about how women change between their labels of “good” nice guys and “bad” ones on a whim, i still can’t find it.

justhanging92 · 2018-07-14T06:12:39+00:00

Women mock nice guys because they're desperately searching for reasons to reject a man whom a "civilized and virtous" women ought to love. The indifference or disgust women feel towards these men must be rationalized

This sounds off, I think it’s more like womenarent thinking about sex as much as men, then a guy attempts to bring sexual energy when it’s not wanted and women are bothered by that. Essentially women don’t understand how important sex is to men nor they understand how the game might be harder for them, so women end up projecting in how they think men should act.

exhibitionistcouplez · 2018-07-15T23:50:06+00:00

Hot misogynistic guys get action, true.

1) From a limited subset of women who look for that
2) Often you're right in hook up culture who you are matters less than usual
3) Hook up culture is not how most romantic/sexual interaction takes place in the world
4) Nice guys are men who take actions "at" someone instead of "with" them. They do a thing and expect a result and get angry when it doesn't happen. Moreover, nice guys usually are men who don't bring much to the table. Except, they tend to lust after women who do bring a ton to the table. And when those women aren't interested, the nice guy can't understand why his mediocre self didn't get him what he wanted.

Nice guys also objectify the fuck out of women in ways they can't hide or cover over.

2018-07-16T00:38:30+00:00

Look, I enjoy horrible but attractive women a lot more than plain or ugly but virtuous ones. Nobody likes awkward people. There's something viscerally revolting about them.

superman1145 · 2018-07-21T15:55:26+00:00

shy/socially awkward men

Aka men who don't have good looking faces. Women love taking the piss out of ugly males, for example r/inceltears r/niceguys r/justneckbeardthings

exit_sandman · 2018-07-12T18:34:31+00:00

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Christian_Kong · 2018-07-12T19:45:14+00:00

I think women are %1000000 more likely to run into a "nice average guy" than a "nice guy." Nice average guy, friendly with them til they realize they aren't fucking, and they ghost them. Nice guys mostly accept their place as a non option for the woman. Then they realize one day that if they don't make any effort to be a friend towards the woman(text them to hang out, grab a drink, whatever) that they will either never hear from or only hear from the woman when she needs something.

The "nice guys" that flip out, have much deeper issues.

SerpentCypher · 2018-07-12T20:57:37+00:00

Honestly, I think that as with most things, the "niceguy" phenomenon is a case of both sides not understanding the other. I especially think there is a disconnect on what is meant when bitter rejected guys say "girls only date assholes!"

When guys say that girls like assholes, they generally don't mean they are assholes to the women themselves, sometimes they do, but this is rarely the case. In my experience it's more that the nice guy has been on the other end of the successful guy's assholery, either through bullying or ostracism or something of that nature .

To women this doesn't even compute, they couldn't care less about men being assholes to other men. They only judge him on how he treats her. In fact I would argue based on years of anecdotal observations that men treating other (lesser) men like shit actually increases her attraction towards him. It shows the asshole in question has clout and status.

When guys describe themselves as nice guys, they generally mean "I don't treat other people like shit like (popular guy) does, fairness suggests I shouldn't be less successful than him/them. To the women dating popular guy this doesnt register, as the people her boyfriend treats poorly are completely invisible to her, as they are low value men. So to her these complaining men just come across as bitter. Which they are, but not illegitimately so.

batman_is_dull · 2018-07-12T21:54:04+00:00

I have had plenty of experiences with shy, socially awkward guys because my interests tend to attract those kind of guys. I assume we have a friendship. No favours, no gifts, 50/50 on everything. There is no flirting, no escalation and then after months of platonic convos about Dr Who - bam! He asks me out. I'm usually totally blindsided as there has been no hint of sexual chemistry, no flirting, nothing... This situation is really awkward for me. I hate having to turn them down. Compare this to a guy who the socially awkward guy might see as a douch who flirts with me, makes it clear hes attracted to me, builds sexual tension, seduces me and makes me feel sexy and desirable... He's the one I'll likely agree to a date with for obvious reasons.

blackedoutfast · 2018-07-12T18:43:26+00:00

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2018-07-12T18:45:56+00:00

[permanently deleted]

Title	CMV: The "NiceGuy" trope, is nothing more than women takin out their frustration on shy/socially awkward men.
Author	batman_is_dull
Upvotes	119
Comments	391
Date	July 12, 2018 5:12 PM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/8ybo9m/cmv_the_niceguy_trope_is_nothing_more_than_women/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/cmv-the-niceguy-trope-is-nothing-more-than-women.261552 https://theredarchive.com/post/261552

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