Do you think that cheating is different between the genders?

tritoneharmonies · 2021-01-24T16:05:21+00:00

Yes, it boils down to not giving a flying fuck basically, but the reasons why people are not able to give a fuck vary from emotional immaturity and impulsiveness to internal moral dissonance and self-sabotage. While those reasons don't justify betrayal, they're a focal part of the truth the cheater is experiencing.

Most people who cheat don't think of themselves as people who are about to destroy their spouses, because that's an aspect and a consequence they want to avoid admitting. It is not usual for a human to readily acknowledge their potential of being the asshole of the situation, especially when talking about something this serious. It's very rare to actually be messed up enough to want to destroy your spouse. Cheating at it's core is mostly selfish escapism and inability to face one's own shame/guilt.

Basically, to be ready to cheat, is to be ready to ignore the possibility that you're selfish and unjust. It's your own ability to sideline serious promises, ability to prioritize pleasurable escapism, the ability to pick and choose when you give a damn about someone who really trusts you. This is true for both genders. The intricacies of the whys and hows are more gender-specific.

badgersonice · 2021-01-24T15:26:55+00:00

I think both are completely unacceptable even if they are somewhat different in practice. Like, I’ll agree that the marriage is dead if the wife cheats.

But I disagree with all the men here rationalizing that the marriage is still ok if the man cheats. It’s not. The “but he still loves his wife” is meaningless drivel when he’s put in a great deal of effort to pursue other women and destroy the marriage. Remember, it takes a lot of time and effort for a man to attract a new woman for sex or a relationship, right? A man can easily claim he loves his wife and cares about being loyal in his marriage, but if he’s putting in hours and hours of effort to be as disloyal as possible, it’s all just a hamster rationalization. Actions tell you what a person truly cares about, much more so than their own self-serving rationalizations.

crookedsummer2019 · 2021-01-24T13:47:11+00:00

Regardless of the reasons, the emotional effect and pain is still the same. Some men like to use the ‘I still love her’ clause, but given that infidelity is one the top reasons for break ups, it’s doesn’t seem as if that clause is accepted by most women.

Professional_Gold_25 · 2021-01-24T16:28:34+00:00

Sure. When women do it, it's men's fault because they were/weren't doing [insert crime against humanity here]. When men do it, it's still, without exception, their fault. See? Simple.

MasterTeacher123 · 2021-01-24T13:49:38+00:00

Women get dick offered everyday online and off regardless of what they look like. They have more opportunities to cheat.

For men it’s different. Ladies unless your man is exceptional no one is throwing the pussy at him. If he cheats on you it’s because he went out and looked for it.

I’ll never forget an older guy at a barbershop told me the reason he stopped cheating on his wife is not because he’s a “good guy” now. He just too tired to go out and chase pussy lol. Like if it was thrown at him he would but it has never been so at this point it’s like fuck it.

Scores_Man_Mund · 2021-01-24T18:35:12+00:00

If you think a guy cheating is okay if he "still loves his wife," ask yourself if you'd feel the same way if a woman says "it was just sex, I didn't have feelings for him!" If you said yes to one but no to the other, you might be a hypocrite. If you think both are okay, you're just a specific kind of person who should either avoid relationships or filter for like-minded people

DuncanIdaho88 · 2021-01-24T16:13:05+00:00

In movies and drama series (eg. The Notebook), it's often portrayed as romantic and exciting if a woman cheats. Particularly if her parents do not like the guy she's having an affair with. It's brushed off with "girls just wanna have fun". It doesn't matter how well her husband or boyfriend treats her. Some emotionally unstable women pick up on this and act accordingly in real life.

If a man does it in a romantic movie or a drama series, he's automatically an irredeemable sociopath who deserves to have his car vandalized.

I've been on both sides of this fence. I'm not proud of it, but it was after I had forgiven my BPD ex girlfriend for cheating, moving out, gaslighting and constantly threatening and lying to me. If an attractive and kind woman shows you that you are not what your BPD girlfriend accuses you of being, it's very easy to cheat.

moviecooknl · 2021-01-24T14:10:59+00:00

Personally I think that it has got to do with loss of mutal attraction and chemistry first and as a result most men will cheat when their sexual needs aren't met (lust) and most women will cheat when their emotional needs aren't met.

AngelWeyesDelRey · 2021-01-24T18:11:57+00:00

So basically “muh dick”? So we can keep our bodies in shape, make him happy, be great in bed, support him, be fun yadda yadda and he will still cheat. Then whats the point in getting married????

YveisGrey · 2021-01-24T17:14:47+00:00

Not to mention you potentially expose your partner to STDs. Many women have died from HIV their husbands gave them from sleeping with hookers.

superlurkage · 2021-01-24T16:11:52+00:00

No. It’s just convenient for dudes to pretend it is. No one buys it, of course

JohnDoe9564 · 2021-01-24T13:31:18+00:00

The marriage could be repaired when the man cheats, but it's typically almost always over when the woman does it.

Redpillisposion · 2021-01-24T14:47:51+00:00

Cheating is wrong for both genders. Men always use muh dick bullshit excuse to justify their digusting behavior.

ticklemybanjo · 2021-01-24T13:31:33+00:00

Yes

TL/DR:

Men cheat because of their innate desire for multiple partners. They can be happy with their woman but still crave sexual variety. The phrase "it meant nothing" is quite literally true.

When women cheat, it’s because they have checked out of the relationship emotionally and are looking for an upgrade.

RedPillMissionary · 2021-01-24T15:08:42+00:00

Yes. A man cheats because he lacks self control over his desires. A woman cheats for psychological reasons, ie, to have a dirty secret, exercise power, punish her husband, to feel sexy or complimented, or falling in love with someone else. Theres a book of womens responses to surveys called Why Women Have Sex

2021-01-24T15:59:49+00:00

Yes- men tend to cheat with their dicks. Women cheat with their hearts first then their vaginas.

RepresentativeSwan1 · 2021-01-24T13:58:03+00:00

I would bet that when a man cheats, it does not signify that he no longer loves his partner, but when a woman does it, it does signify that.

Nago31 · 2021-01-24T20:14:54+00:00

Cheating for either gender is a reflection of a breakdown in the relationship. Usually starting with communication but that is certainly not the whole of it. Other reasons can be goal-driven, bedroom-driven, activity-driven, etc.

Ultimately, cheating is an act of cowardice. A person that is not fulfilled in the relationship but lacks the courage to speak up for what they need or courage to admit that the relationship is over.

StrugglingRando · 2021-01-24T15:26:05+00:00

Men I imagine are typically fighting biological forces when deciding not to cheat. Women on the other hand get male attention all the time and can still not be tempted. Therefore when women cheat it's a very premeditated middle finger to their significant other. Neither is more or less reprehensible, as men are expected (and should be expected imo) to fight their urges, and women of course should deal with problems in the relationship in a more ethical manner.

2021-01-24T17:38:08+00:00

Cheating is cheating, but, it does depend on the boundaries that the couples set while within the relationship. Some women, and even men, believe that pornography is cheating since they are visually getting off to someone of the opposite sex. Some people think that old fashion porn (magazines or internet porn) isn't cheating, but VR porn and/or OnlyFans is cheating. Some people are fine if their partner has a fling when their sexual desires can't be met. Some people are fine with their partner's character having sex with another person's character in D&D, and others aren't. It all depends on the people.

However, when that boundary is crossed, then it can be considered cheating.

For example, my definition of "soft" cheating is flirting, and possibly even an OnlyFans subscription depending on the context and how much the hostess interacts with my partner. My definition of full blown cheating is either an emotional affair ("I love you", "I will leave my partner for you", "I can't wait to just hold you - I miss you so much darling") or a physical affair (kissing, sexual actions like oral sex and/or handjobs, full blown intercourse).

However, with all this being said..? Both sexes still cheat.

Women tend to cheat if their emotional needs aren't being met, while men tend to cheat if their physical needs aren't being met. Sure, these two can flip flop around since women still experience lust and attraction, and men still need their emotional needs to be met, but it's typically for that reason. Loving someone and being in love with someone is different. You can still love and care deeply for someone and cheat, but you just threw the relationship in the trash because you're not IN love with them, which prompted the thought of cheating.

nacho-chonky · 2021-01-24T17:59:13+00:00

I’ve heard women argue that women cheat because men aren’t giving them enough emotional support 🙄 maybe talk through your feelings like an adult then instead of fucking random dudes

basedmillennial95 · 2021-01-24T16:30:42+00:00

Yes, but they are still morally wrong.

goatismycopilot · 2021-01-24T17:05:11+00:00

Men who cheat frequently and say they love their wives had a family for pragmatic reasons to begin with. What they like is whatever comfort that family life gives them and most people default to familiarity. If they married an attractive woman who produced genetic material that they more or less like and are in any kind of profession where public image matters they want the outward mask of compliance and marrying some chick and having a few kids satisfies that.

UMC women who don't have to work aren't going to flip out and get a divorce and be forced out in the workplace and lose whatever prestige they had because he bangs some side chick.

Men can cheat and go back to their wives and kids because the relationship is symbolic to begin with they aren't heavily emotionally connected to either.

BlackPorcelainDoll · 2021-01-24T20:02:47+00:00

Cheating has causes not reasons. What causes cheating seems to have some variation, but not that much. The most common is low impulse control/being seduced/neglect, etc.

DirtyPartyMan · 2021-01-24T23:14:37+00:00

It’s been my observation that a woman will emotionally leave a man months before she physically leaves him. Yet says nothing between either points.

Lord-of-Circles · 2021-01-25T01:59:19+00:00

men and women are different so of course it is.

What is this trannie post bullshit?

_mwk · 2021-01-24T13:53:55+00:00

i think cheating is worse when men do it, but i think paternity fraud is worse, however i count it as more than cheating.

i have nothing but disgust & disrespect for people who forgive & stay with cheaters, but i guess they do what they have to do to keep their marriages or whatever.

jdobrila · 2021-01-24T15:09:54+00:00

you’re prioritizing “strange” over the self-esteem, ability to trust, and heart of your partner

Cheaters don't assume they will be caught.

Brilliant-Hornet1916 · 2021-01-24T13:49:07+00:00

I think being cheated on as a man is worse in terms of psychological damage, and I'll explain why.

From an evolutionary perspective (procreating and passing on genes), it makes sense for men to find women sexually appealing outside of his partner, even women who are less desirable than his partner as he can impregnate an almost infinite amount of women. Sleeping with other women also doesn't stop his partner achieving her biological goal as she can still get pregnant whenever she wants. Women who are cheated on can tell themselves "men are just dogs who will fuck anything".

For a woman, it only makes biological sense for her to cheat with a man she deems more attractive and desirable than her partner, as she can only get pregnant from 1 man at a time for a limited window. So when she cheats it hits a lot harder from the man's perspective in that you know she deemed the new guy as better quality seed. Also if she has been impregnated by the new man, it stops her partner from achieving his biological goals as she can't get pregnant again for another 9 months, and it potentially means he will be stuck raising another man's offspring (paternity certainty that women don't have to worry about).

Now, cheating is not justified on either side, but talking about the psychological damage on the victim in both scenarios, I can see an argument for men having it worse.

I do think you can be in love with someone and cheat on them - both men and women. Some people for example just cannot handle their alcohol and have poor impulse control in those circumstances. You have a responsibility though to not put yourself in situations where something could happen.

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amwfhunter · 2021-01-24T15:47:08+00:00

I think cheating is cheating. I do believe that some people can love their partners but still cheat. I don't know if humans are meant to be monogamous. I am at the stage of my life where relationships to me aren't anything to take seriously. My main concern for any more invested commitment partnerships is financial. As long as they don't touch my money, I don't really care anymore. That includes any gifts or uses. More the reason why I'd rather date a millionaire than some girl at Starbucks. Should there be any issue of infidelity on either end, just a clean break unless it is an open relationship or not that serious. That is how I approach relationships now. Remove financial implications and just like them for who they are for a finite time. If it works great, if not walk away.

Professional_Gold_25 · 2021-01-24T16:28:50+00:00

Sure. When women do it, it's men's fault because they were/weren't doing [insert crime against humanity here]. When men do it, it's still, without exception, their fault. See? Simple.

TheGoldenRaven · 2021-01-24T18:06:48+00:00

Im inclined to to believe that both men and women are wired to cheat on a biological level, but for different reasons. From a survival point of view for men the more partners they mate with the more likely is their bloodline is to continue, but for even higher chance besides just mating with as many females as possible there is an additional strategy, to mate with a single female and put your energy on the survival of that mates child. For females however the strategy of mating with everything that moves doesn't work, so they have to be selective to find the best genes around, however just finding the best genes is only half the work as the other half is to secure a mate who is going to support you and your child. And those two are often not the same. So even from evolutionary standpoint it's a fucked up thing to do, cause you'r ether saying that, "oh well, you are good enoght to give me your stuff, and provide for me, but not quite good for me to have your kid, I'm gonna have you believe that I'm having your kid so that you provide for me", or as a man you are betraying the commitment to the child you are having together, and decide to spend some of the resources which are ment for that child on another mate and potentially on another child. Cheating is an evolutionary mechanism to ensure the survival of your bloodline in which we BETRAY our partner in order to ensure the continuation of your genetic code.

LotBuilder · 2021-01-24T18:59:36+00:00

Both genders cheat for completely different and the same reasons. Sometimes they are just damaged people with deep trauma that get reassured through people desiring them. These people have high body counts before marriage or a ltr. They have cheated on their past partners. They just are not great candidates for long term monogamous relationships. It’s never going to work out. Anyone dating or marrying them and expecting a different outcome is their problem.

Then there are people without trauma or anything that have been ignored and neglected to the point where they give in when someone gives them a little attention.

nemma88 · 2021-01-24T20:26:58+00:00

I think the hurt is the same, but if you go all the way up the reason both genders do it is for validation and it feels good. The details of why might be different but its under tee same umbrella.

gypsyismylover · 2021-01-24T20:49:14+00:00

I’ve heard many people (especially men) say “you can cheat and still love your partner very much; you just want some strange!” But they don’t seem to realize that if you’re prioritizing “strange” over the self-esteem, ability to trust, and heart of your partner, you probably couldn’t give half a fuck. And the promises thing is self-explanatory.

Well this isn't about their partner. It's exclusively how THEY feel about their partner. So you're right to a degree maybe they don't care about those things in a sense of it takes two to gango but peoples feelings are theirs alone and so I generally understand what people mean when they say that.

It's like if my partner doesn't like mango but I do. Obviously there's other factors that make it different but on a basic level it's the same thing.

armordog99 · 2021-01-24T22:08:58+00:00

I remember reading a study about adultery during the Clinton-Lewisnky scandal. It founders that 85% of husbands that cheated on their wives had no intention of leaving the marriage. 92% of wives that cheated on their husband intended to leave their marriage.

I think that this is a reflection of a lot of men being in dead bedroom situations. Everything else in the marriage might be good, or there are children involved and they don’t want to put them through a divorce, etc. However they aren’t willing to spend the rest of their lives without sex, so they cheat.

By the time a woman is ready to cheat she is ready to leave the relationship.

Edit: I dated a woman who’s father would always get dressed up and go out on Friday’s. I finally asked her about it and she said after the birth of her youngest sister her Mom had told her dad that she didn’t like sex (and had never liked it) and wasn’t going to have it anymore. But she understood if he needed to go get it. He tried to get her to go to counseling, she refused. He didn’t want to break the family up and she was a SAHM and he owned a medium sized construction company and didn’t want to lose half of it in the divorce so he took her up on the offer. Her younger sister was 9 at the time so this has been going on for 9 years.

Sid_Insidious · 2021-01-25T01:17:30+00:00

I think cheating is fucking gross. However, I'll have a bit of sympathy for a person who is in a "sorry this isn't a sexual relationship anymore" situation.

I also have ZERO sympathy for women who throttle intimacy and use sex as a dog treat for behaviour they approve of. Whenever I hear a man being subjected to this sexual manipulation I've actually recommend he get his needs met outside the house.

Manufacture-Insight · 2021-01-25T02:43:27+00:00

Cheating IS cheating, f*** the rest.

ThrowawayCOVID999 · 2021-01-25T08:54:50+00:00

Of course it’s different. You catch your gf cheating and her friends and your friends will side with her (she probably cheated with those cocksuckers anyway.). But when a man get caught cheating everybody knows he did something wrong.

OrganicReflection86 · 2021-01-26T06:22:14+00:00

I’d say women probably get emotional more than men, generally of course.

2021-01-29T11:14:55+00:00

The third reason would probably be "I'm dumb enough to think I'll get away with this & not end up hurting my partner". Never works, obviously.

ThrowawayCOVID999 · 2021-02-18T21:49:06+00:00

Nah, there’s no difference. No matter who cheats the wife keeps the house and the husband eats shit.

Mustbeaight · 2021-01-24T14:34:04+00:00

Yes when a man cheats it’s usually just to satisfy a quick sexual urge...he « lovingly » goes back to his wife later..but when a Woman cheats that marriage or relationship is forreal done..because women tend to cheat emotionally too.. when she cheats it means you have effectively lost her physically and emotionally... that’s why monogamy is kinda ridiculous to me... men and women aren’t naturally meant to be with only one partner....especially men...so yep... that’s why I’m not mad at promiscuous women like a lot of guys..they’re just doing what theyre supposed to do... men are promiscuous too..although the consequences for promiscuity could be harsher for women

DevilishRogue · 2021-01-24T16:29:26+00:00

I mean to cheat on someone you literally have to say “I am about to destroy my partner...worth it!”

Most people assume their partner won't find out. Like criminals, they weigh the likelihood of getting caught ahead of the consequences.

they don’t seem to realize that if you’re prioritizing “strange” over the self-esteem, ability to trust, and heart of your partner, you probably couldn’t give half a fuck.

This kind of teenaged-level analysis is the default on reddit but the reality is massively different. And whilst not everyone grows out of such naivete as subs like adulteryhate demonstrate, the reality is that demonstrated by other subs like deadbedroom.

Women predominantly cheat to branch swing or to find excitement they are missing. Men predominantly cheat because the opportunity cost of not doing so is too high. Of course it is different for the two sexes because of the different ease with which either can and the different consequences for either sex of doing so. A woman always knows that her child is hers, for example.

BossTerrier · 2021-01-24T14:42:09+00:00

I think both genders can cheat for largely the same reasons, as neither gender is really built for monogamy. I do think men are far more likely to cheat out of straight horniness and women for the emotional validation and excitement of a new partner.

That being said I think that men have the capacity to feel more guilty after being confronted by cheating. Men's "instinct" for sleeping around doesn't manifest as a constant desire for multiple partners, but as brief flare ups of arousal when directly presented with an attractive sexual partner and an opportunity. When directly confronted with their infidelity there's no longer any testosterone softening their frontal lobes into making them a short-sighted, selfish horndog so they're left with the reality of the damage they've done to their partner. Though the fact that men can be made to feel worse doesn't mean that in practice they do, as men are just raised to be less empathetic than women are.

Women's current relationships with men is more in tune with their mating "instincts" in that they're driven to secure long term relationships with stable providers and to "copulate" with high status/popular men, but there's no instinctive compulsion for both of these to be the same person. Women's AF/BB tendency is omnipresent, regardless of current arousal level. They instinctively see their "nice" but boring provider male as "not their sexual partner" so there's a limit how guilty they can feel towards not being faithful. Leaving their husband at home to bone their supervisor just makes sense to women on a level too deep to be touched by societal standards of faithfulness. You can't make a woman feel bad for doing it anymore than you can make a bird feel bad for building a nest.

That being said I do think you can love your partner and still cheat. I've never cheated before but I have been close and it took considerable self discipline to walk away, not necessarily "love" for my partner. It was more about not being a cheater than not cheating on her, if that makes sense. I do believe that arousal essentially works the same way as drug addiction and rewrites your brain chemistry to be more sociopathic in your pursuit of a "fix." That being said it is still a betrayal and I end things with any woman who does it. At least now I do. :/

Willow-girl · 2021-01-24T18:03:19+00:00

I mean to cheat on someone you literally have to say “I am about to destroy my partner...worth it!”

I disagree. I think most people who enter into adultery believe they're clever enough to avoid getting caught. They're just trying to get a little on the side. The mentality is more akin to, "I can have my cake and eat it, too!"

The problem is that when you start having sex with a new person, you tend to bond with that person. Your affection transfers. Your spouse becomes the person on the outside. Instead of defending your marriage from interlopers, you end up defending your affair partner from your spouse! Which is just fucked-up.

Emotional affairs follow the same trajectory.

FoggyDanto · 2021-01-24T18:29:55+00:00

ALL men can cheat, what just matters is can they get that sex in the first place, how hard will they have to work hard to get it and will the lady keep it a secret

If men can buy sex: sex work is such a booming industry, you can imagine if they get it for free.

For men sex is something physical, like taking a dose of weed in a corner or just taking a short call.

For women sex is complicated. Also women cheat with just one person at a time, it's emotional and usually that person is a possible (and in fact better) replacement to the current man she is with

crookedsummer2019 · 2021-01-24T13:58:43+00:00

There's no way to argue it isn't different.

Now, for an anecdote. Whether what I did/do is/was cheating is in the eye of the beholder but...

When I met my LTR (4 years ago) I was a virgin, and I fucked her first. I was pretty straight-up and said I couldn't LTR a girl and never fuck anybody else, but I really liked her and wouldn't want to lose her.

Now, imo, I didn't "cheat" because I told her and she agreed--and it was set up before we ever even 'entered a relationship.' But the gist is similar.

In any case I banged a lot of women the first couple years we were together. And lo and behold... it had precisely nothing to do with my feelings towards her whatsoever. You can try to discredit what I'm saying, not believe it, whatever--but it, to me, was completely and 100% basically the equivalent of having a side business or hobby or something. It was something I dumped a little time (that we wouldn't have seen each other during anyways) into and didn't matter when we were together.

It was motivated by a desire for variety. Had nothing to do with her. And when I 'got my fix,' I was satisfied. I haven't done that in a while, though the door remains open because she definitely built up a trust for it (because I stuck to my word the whole time, like I said I would).

But... flip the genders on that. There's more issues with that than the American political system. It would not have been the same at all.

I mean, for one, a girl can definitely get a rise out of 'damn, my BF fucks all these girls and picks me. That's kind of sexy' whereas... the flipped-gender version reads more like "all these guys use my GF and don't want to date her."

In any case I am highly against true cheating. I think people have a right to go for what they want (as I did). But dishonesty is messed up because I think women have a right to attempt to "BB" a guy. And a "BB" discretely cheating means he'll probably catch feelings and betray the woman, just like a woman would likely do if she discretely cheated. Women are only going to approve of what I did if they think the man they're with is very HV, and I think they have a right to treat the situation like that. People deserve to know what they're investing months or even years into.

So... I think true cheating is messed up by both genders, but for different reasons. But I think "extracurricular sex" is entirely different based upon the gender of the person having it.

Aldabruzzo · 2021-01-24T13:40:58+00:00

Very different reasons.

There are also different effects on the relationship, depending on whether the man cheats or the woman cheats.

tropicsGold · 2021-01-24T17:13:19+00:00

Women cheat either because they get bored with their husband, or he loses attractiveness. Men cheat either because they are players who never really intend loyalty, or because their woman loses interest and stops having sex with him. So men’s cheating is definitely not always about not caring about his wife, check out dead bedroom sub. Some guys cheat out of despair because their wife is no longer interested.

pillchangedmylife · 2021-01-24T22:29:59+00:00

Cheating - to break the rules of the game

You can't cheat if you don't commit.

Personally as i get older as a man I'm not going to commit anymore.

To have (supposed) easy access to sex with one woman in exchange for MY money time and effort is just not worth it anymore. Will i die alone in my old age? We all die alone in our old age.

How do i have Children? Maybe i will meet a woman honest enough to admit its not about me and its just the money for the children and come to a reasonable agreement / arrangement.

abaxeron · 2021-01-24T23:02:08+00:00

When men deceive women into raising other women's kids thinking they're their own, I'll agree that cheating by men and women is comparable.

Suck-Less · 2021-01-24T14:40:59+00:00

Women get far more attention than the average man. They don’t have to look to cheat, they just have to say yes. In western society women are constantly told not to settle for anything. So the second she gets bored, she has dick on demand, willing to tell women all the excuses they want to hear.

Most men are not like that. Most men probably cheat because the bedroom dried up, or because she started nagging him to change behavior and he found someone that will both fuck him and treat him well.

Nothing is 100%, but I’d bet most fall into those categories.

Title	Do you think that cheating is different between the genders?
Author	_pineapplylemon
Upvotes	96
Comments	328
Date	January 24, 2021 1:27 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/l3zf94/do_you_think_that_cheating_is_different_between/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/do-you-think-that-cheating-is-different-between.727448 https://theredarchive.com/post/727448

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