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Bortasz
[–]herewegoaga1n 438 points439 points440 points 11 years ago (189 children) | Copy Link
I wish common sense wasn't such a rare natural resource on this planet.
[–]Bortasz[S] 191 points192 points193 points 11 years ago (174 children) | Copy Link
http://womenagainstfeminism.tumblr.com/ For lifting the spirits. There are reasonable and normal women out there. Majority of them do not agree with feminists. But feminists are the most vocal, active and organize...
[–][deleted] 100 points101 points102 points 11 years ago (59 children) | Copy Link
I believe that feminism can be a good thing...
...in countries where women are actively oppressed.
Countries where women aren't allowed to drive, to make big money decisions on their own, where they are punished for being raped and more. We've passed that stage here.
Compared to that the 'problems' feminists here care about are so very petty. And I find it ridiculous that women seem to get less harsh punishments for the same crimes. Do the same crime, do the same time.
[–]koji8123 11 points12 points13 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
There's not a lot that will disagree with this. Feminism achieved what it needed. Neofeminism now is just entitlement and hypocritical whining.
[–]theJigmeister 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
When you run out of real issues to fight for, but you still want the money to keep flowing, that's when you wind up with modern feminism. After all, there's a lot of money in victimhood, plus they get to hate a group of people for free and feel like special snowflakes!
[–]koji8123 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
B-B-but the pay-tree-arc-E! :,(
[–][deleted] 22 points23 points24 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I agree. The silly thing is that when you bring something like this up to a western feminist, and they respond with the "fighting for womens rights in third world countries" argument. If that were the case, why aren't you over there in those third world countries fighting?
[–]nopurposeflour 23 points24 points25 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Slacktivism.
[–]Jerzeem 21 points22 points23 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
If that were the case, why aren't you over there in those third world countries fighting?
It's dangerous over there and that's what (expendable) men are for.
[+]Bortasz[S] -18 points-17 points-16 points 11 years ago (50 children) | Copy Link
I do not believe feminism of today can be good for anybody. I believe that in this country like Iraq People are oppressed. Not just women. If we wish to help them we must help them all. Women are Wife, Daughters, Sisters. Men are Fathers, Husbands and Sons. If we do not start helping FAMILIES they we will not help them all. Parafrazing Watson: If we help men, situation for women will improve as natural consequence since they are connected. Also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5eqYEVYZgdo
[–]TheDerpyDonut 19 points20 points21 points 11 years ago* (49 children) | Copy Link
While I agree that places like Saudi and Iraq need protection for families, this a place where women deserve more attention. If a woman is raped, they are disowned and neglected for bringing shame to the family for example.
[–]Lauzon_ 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
That the reality is that in countries where women are treated like shit, [non elite] men are also treated like shit, arguably worse. We naturally have more sympathy for women, so we need to be careful to guard against this bias.
[–]TheDerpyDonut 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I know. I'm not biased to either side. I'm just saying it's a lot more severe. I've known people who suffered through it.
[–]Bortasz[S] 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (44 children) | Copy Link
And also in this place you will teenage boys who sell them self to support there mothers and sisters. Situation there is shitty. But if you will focus only on women. You will not help. There entire situation is bad. Entire society suffer. Entire population need help.
[–]TheDerpyDonut 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (43 children) | Copy Link
I know. I think everyone needs help, just they need a bit more.
[–]Alzael 11 points12 points13 points 11 years ago (40 children) | Copy Link
That's the same kind of thinking that gives us the oppression olympics we all love feminism for.
Who are you to presume who suffers more?
[–]TheDerpyDonut 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link
Someone who has been to the country and seen it first hand.
[–]Alzael 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link
So have I.But how does that give you the capacity to rate the suffering of one group over another?
Not withstanding the fact that your anecdotal experiences are indicative of nothing factual or even realistic. If you've already presumed that women have it worse off,then it's likely what you're going to see.Especially since people already are naturally inclined to treat womens problems as worse than mens.
But still,who are you to make judgements on the suffering of other people?
[–]geekygirl23 -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
See, someone makes a post here that is reasonable and not really inflammatory to sensible people. Then I read the comments and see the same idiots saying the same thing they've been saying all along making this sub look just as bad as any other extremist section of reddit and the asshole feminists.
[–]Alzael 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
So saying that both have equivalent problems that should be addressed equally is extremism?
You have an interesting grasp of the nuances of the english language.
[+][deleted] 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
[permanently deleted]
[–]Lauzon_ 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I'll dispute it. In Afghanistan, boys as young as five are required to work 12-14 hour days to support their mothers and sisters. Boys and men are the overwhelming victims of violence, both by foreign occupiers and domestic police/soldiers. Programs are created to uplift girls while ignoring boys.
The reality is that both men and women have more sympathy for women and girls. It's just biology. Men are the disposable sex. So we naturally assume that atrocities committed against women are infinitely worse than atrocities committed against men and boys. The CIA certainly recognizes this, which is why documents exposed by Wikileaks reveal a concerted effort by the American government to highlight women's issues in the middle east while virtually ignoring men's issues.
Many women in Saudi Arabia have no desire to drive; they prefer being treated like "princesses" with male chauffeurs (see Karen Straughan's analysis). Similarly, it was only when a majority of women in the US actually WANTED the right to vote that male politicians gave it to them -- many women from the time period were concerned that they would be obligated (like men) to fight the state's wars. As it turns out, no such obligation was demanded.
And we wonder which sex is more "privileged"?
[–]Alzael 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The earth being flat was once thought to be common knowledge.Didn't make that true.
But I never said that men were worse off than the women. In fact no one did.What was said is that both have serious,but different problems and both should be addressed. It is people like you who are trying to claim that one side has it worse.
Which is the oppression olympics mentality that I had been referring to.
[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link
I object to your assertion that suffering cannot be quantified. An example of such is that a paper cut is not worse than two broken legs.
[–]Alzael 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
All right then.Quantify the variance in levels of suffering between rape and slavery.
It's easy to strawman by using extreme opposites.
[–]Bortasz[S] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VupEC0cAWo I hope that I did not send you this already.
[–][deleted] -4 points-3 points-2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I personally don't agree. Under "help" also fits education. Education young boys and families as a whole to help them understand that such things are wrong even if they are socially "acceptable" in their country, would go a long way.
[–]barleyf 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
the only?
While I agree that places like Saudi and Iraq need protection for families, this is the only place where women deserve more attention. If a woman is raped, they are disowned and neglected for bringing shame to the family for example.
I agree. The shit like that, that goes down in Saudi Arabia makes my blood boil.
[–]Blutarg 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Craig, which country would benefit from having a movement that says all men are likely rapists who need to be reeducated, that drafting only men to fight in wars is worse for women than men, that you can't rape a man because men are brutes who always want to get it on, that people shouldn't clap to show approval because that's mean?
[–]MarlboroMundo 37 points38 points39 points 11 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
Anyone who takes such a polarized view on gender is niether reasonable or normal.
[–]redroom101 7 points8 points9 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Im not if this applies to her or feminism?
[–]MarlboroMundo 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Take this as a general statement not focused at a single person or demographic
[–]d3k4y 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
Nor do they follow the original principals of feminism. Originally they wanted equality for both sexes. I sometimes wonder if things would be different had they chose a different name. Dude here by the way. I'm not defending feminism by any means. I just think it's a sad state of affairs.
[–]oneiorosgripwontstfu 14 points15 points16 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I don't know which feminists you've been reading about but it's been a gynocentric approach to genderless issues at least as far back as the suffragette movement. People today seem to think the suffragette protests happened in an environment of all men being able to vote, and no women. The facts tell a different story.
[–]Lauzon_ 15 points16 points17 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Feminism has ALWAYS been about granting women male privileges without corresponding responsibilities, and indeed refusing to even acknowledge female privileges, let alone expanding them to men. It's a female supremacist movement. Period.
[–]Demonspawn 9 points10 points11 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Nor do they follow the original principals of feminism. Originally they wanted equality for both sexes.
This is a common falsehood.
The original principals of feminism were equal rights. Feminism ignored that men had more responsibility than men did.
Feminism, since it's inception, has been a female supremacy movement. The only real difference between then and now is that it's harder to hide it's nature after women have obtained men's rights.
[–]ghebert001 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Nor do they follow the original principles of feminism
Other than maybe Christina Hoff Sommers and a small handful of others labeling themselves as feminists I don't think anyone follows the original principles.
[–]d3k4y 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
That is my claim. It has gotten far more extreme and anti-male
[–]copenhannah 63 points64 points65 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
This is absolutely brilliant! I've always cause trouble with feminists and I'm called out on my opinions and they always state arguments like "women fought for your rights, you should respect them" etc etc. Certain feminists don't seem to understand the sheer hypocrisy of some of the things they say. I have never felt "oppressed" by men and wasn't even aware of that until feminists tried to align every male action as oppressive in some way. If a man tries to chat me up, I tell him where to go. I make it perfectly clear I'm not interested and generally men leave you alone after that. Yes you get some weirdos but you shouldn't stick around out of spite, just because you shouldn't have to deal with how these men are behaving. If somebody is acting inappropriately towards me, I'm going to fucking leave. I'm not going to strike up some bullshit feminist argument how I shouldn't have to leave just because of this person's lack of respect for me. It is highly unlikely to change his behaviour if he hasn't already accepted a clear "No. Fuck off." Why would I want to remain in potential danger (as I am told that all men are dangerous??)? I don't need feminism because the fact I am a woman does not share every facet of my life. My career, my interests, my opinions are not formed on the basis of my sex. And I don't feel being female has hindered any aspect of my life.
[–][deleted] 17 points18 points19 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It's an interesting concept that fighting for something demands unbounded respect. I'm sure quite a few soldiers in WWII were racist, but just because they fought for my freedom doesn't mean I need to respect their racist ways.
[–]oneiorosgripwontstfu 6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Feminists also hate that hashtag. They've had the most hypocritical response to it. While there are many of them who work themselves into a tizz with cries of invasion and spamming if women post dissenting statements in feminist-created hashtags like #yesallwomen or #ifiwereaboy, they feel entitled to post the same type of dismissive and hateful rhetoric in #yesallwomen that the woman in the above image talked about.
[–]Bortasz[S] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UtAByXu_U-I I think this is nice comment on Approach of Feminism to what you say.
[–]oneiorosgripwontstfu 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It's amazing how feminists call male MRAs creepy and then hang out with men who try to use horror stories about how men would dominate and oppress women if feminism wasn't there to stop them to force an unwanted ideology on their nonfeminist counterparts.
[–]Starkiller713 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Reading those felt good.
[–]Adito99 7 points8 points9 points 11 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link
People tend to act in their own interest and therefore seize on groups that seem to represent them. The non-oppressed woman does this just like the non-oppressed man. That's no reason to single out feminism, a movement with clear roots in a desire for equality, as more guilty of this sin than any other group.
I doubt I'm the first person to say this here but mensrights folks and feminists are on the same side. No need to pick fights with idiots and strawman the people wanting to help on issues this sub is about.
[–][deleted] 7 points8 points9 points 11 years ago* (8 children) | Copy Link
Feminism produces anti male legislation, propaganda that covers up abuse and silences any talk of most mens issues in the feminist movement, and will bully, abuse and demonize people who try bring them up.
Mens Rights - after a long period of trying to work with feminists now aggressively opposes feminist legislation that infringes on mens rights, points out how toxic feminist propaganda about men is and and is debunking it with information that tells both sides of the story instead of one - and hope that once feminism is gone, there can be a true equality movement.
[–]MattBD 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I think it's also worth noting that the vast majority of the inequality in the world is along class lines and not gender lines.
[–]Keiichi81 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Look at all those poor sock puppets with internalized misogyny being forced to lie by their Patriarchal oppressors. Such a shame. It's a good thing feminism is out there fighting for their right to say how they really feel, which is to say how feminism tells them they should feel.
[–]sir_edge -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I feel like you got down voted for lack of sarcasm tags / someone didn't read the last sentence.
[–]Keiichi81 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Unfortunately, no matter how thick and obvious you feel the sarcasm is, it's not thick and obvious enough.
[–]MagnusTheGreat 9 points10 points11 points 11 years ago (71 children) | Copy Link
They are extremists. Saying that all feminists are alike is like saying that all Muslims are alike because less than .1% of them are terrorists. And that is just plain ignorance.
[–][deleted] 15 points16 points17 points 11 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link
Unfortunately pretty much all feminists support the propaganda and the legislation created by the extremists.
A good litmus test is do you support VAWA, or do you believe the feminist claim that abuse is large a gender issue with men as the abusers.
You will find a very rare outlier that will answer no to both, but not among the average feminist.
[–]Vandechoz 24 points25 points26 points 11 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
The manspreading campaigners, the campus feminists setting up cuddle-party "safe spaces" at speaking events...these aren't the extremists. They are not radfems. These are your average, everyday feminists, and they are the leaders of the movement. The ones that introduce legislation and run academic institutions. They are not just some vocal minority.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
the wage gap myth is not propagated by the extremists, neither is the 1 in 4 rape hysteria.
[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (37 children) | Copy Link
While less that .1% of thenm may be terroists, the percentages that support them are a lot higher. Only 57% of muslims worldwide disapprove of al-Qaeda 26% of young muslim americans believe that suicide bombings are justified. And 49.9% of muslims worldwide polled support Osama Bin Laden.
[–]SilencingNarrative 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Source?
[+]MagnusTheGreat -6 points-5 points-4 points 11 years ago (23 children) | Copy Link
And how many Americans and Europeans do you know that approved of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan? Only a few soldiers from the West actually fight (compared to the entire force), but a huge majority of people support their cause. The only difference is that one side is wealthy and supported by their government, the other is people that want to restore order (even if it is incredibly harsh and unfair and murderous) to a country destroyed by war and assassinations from the West.
Oh, and remind me of who financed Osama Bin Laden when he was fighting the Soviets.
Then there is also the fictional side of war. The people that support war are almost always the ones that have never seen what it does. The families it rips apart, the people it kills, the people it cripples... It's the same with extreme racists. They usually don't talk to the people they want to be killed or deported and therefor know only what other people tell them that are equally ignorant. You know the people that want to join ISIS? Well, a lot of the people that join them want to return, cause it's so much different than they thought.
When I was younger, in my teens, I wanted to become a soldier. I love guns and explosions and to be honest, huge numbers fascinate me. I really like big battles and huge wars. Which is why the Battle of Stalingrad and the Battle of Kursk have been my favorite battles. 2 million people died in Stalingrad alone in 8 months. But the more I learned, the less I wanted to fight. It is said that 80% of a soldiers life in the front line is waiting. Waiting and being bored. Extremely bored. And then 20% of the time is terrifying. Explosions, people you see as your own brothers die around you and you might even kill someone...It won't settle in yet, but 1 year, 10 years, or 20 years down the line, you might suddenly realize that you killed someone that was just like you. And that is what is the scary part. The people you hate and think are so different and vile and disgusting are just like you. And most of them are just normal people that struggle in life. The rest are soldiers that have friends and family, love their country and want to fight for it...
TL;DR: Ask the people that say they support these things whom they think is to blame. Ask them how they'd react if they saw people they hated killed. If they say "I would stand there solid like a rock and smile", ask them how they would react if you'd cut their dogs throat and held his head up in victory. Cause someone will feel much stronger emotions seeing their father killed in front of them.
[–]WorkyMcWorkmeister 11 points12 points13 points 11 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link
hahahah the moral relativism and mental gymnastics on this one would be hilarious if they weren't so fucking revolting.
Equating the American occupation of Afghanistan to ISIS, what are you smoking?!
" You know the people that want to join ISIS? Well, a lot of the people that join them want to return, cause it's so much different than they thought." NO SHIT, they are a blood soaked genocidal theocratic war band. You've had to much liberal arts kool aide to call that what it is. Evil plain and simple.
"normal people that struggle in life. The rest are soldiers that have friends and family, love their country and want to fight for it..." No they're fucking not you slobbering coward, these men are literally the living embodiment of cruelty, and mid-evil retardation.
[–]cheezehead4lyfe 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
That was one hell of a rant
[–]redroom101 -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
99.2 % of info like this is ass
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Would you like sources?
[–]utmostgentleman 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
So #NotAllMenFeminists?
Picture a bowl of Feminists. Ten percent of them are M&Ms. Go ahead, take a handful.
[–]Grasshopper21 -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
Feminists are like lysol. 99.9% of them have it out for men.
[–]BlueDoorFour 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Almost every feminist I know isn't "like that," just as every Christian I know isn't a bible-thumping fundamentalist. This still isn't an argument for Feminism or Christianity. I can reject the ideology without thinking the worst of its followers.
Religious groups do some good in the world. They help the homeless, provide comfort to people at the end of life, offer community and comforting traditions. Still, that doesn't mean the faith is right, and it can lead to well-meaning people doing a lot of harm.
Feminists do a lot of good, too. They support the LGBT and black communities, promote awareness of women's rights issues (some valid, many kinda BS...), and motivate discussions of gender in academia. Still, the ideology does directly lead to people doing a lot of harm, especially when it comes to universities and the legal system.
[–]Harmless_Glum -3 points-2 points-1 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
I think it's safe to say all feminists are extremists.
[–]R33V3R13 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Its never safe to say "All X are Extremists"
[+][deleted] 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]SuramKale 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It's leaking.
[–]Griddamus 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
The mouse who squeaks loudest gets the cheese, unfortunately
[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
The mouse who squeaks loudest also attracts the attention of the cat. chomp chomp chomp
[–]TheAverageBro 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Turns out the rat was a mutant with super retard strength and the squeal projected in the most bitchy tone you've ever heard in your entire life. Curiosity ended up killing the cat is what I was gettin' at breh.
[–]ShitArchonXPR 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Turns out the rat was a mutant with super retard strength and the squeal projected in the most bitchy tone you've ever heard in your entire life.
Moral of the story: don't pick fights with Skavens.
[–]TheLonelySnail 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Wow, very sorry any of that happened to you. Mens rights, womens rights, people need to be supported, not ridiculed. You are very brave to take a stand like this.
[–]Bortasz[S] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Eeeee. Do you are sarcastic?
[–]TheLonelySnail 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
No I am not being sarcastic. It takes a lot of courage to stand up to a group of people that you belong to. In my opinion, more courage than standing up to a foreign group.
I do not understand you. Maybe it is because I do not am use to, to getting praise.
I'm not on this Picture. I just post it. But I support it fully.
[–]jostler57 8 points9 points10 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Shhh...
[–][deleted] 6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Kind of Ironic calling it 'common' sense then.
[–]Spinkler 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Hang on... By very definition common sense is common.
... Maybe we're the crazy ones? :o
[–]herewegoaga1n 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
That's an interesting thought. Allow me to offer a counter-point.
[–]Lauzon_ 23 points24 points25 points 11 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link
Since this was front-paged I'm gonna hijack the top post and link to the work of Karen Straughan. She posts here occasionally and will hopefully chime in on this thread.
Me a feminist? No way:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PqEeCCuFFO8
Is Feminism hate? [skip to the 20 min. mark]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDYAVROaIcs
How Feminism conned society
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RozEFVPDxeg
Benevolent sexism?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VupEC0cAWo
The Tyranny of Female Hypoagency
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBgcjtE0xrE
Feminism and the Disposable Male.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vp8tToFv-bA
A few good videos by Lindy Beige on female power in history:
Women power in the past
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xrgovSZ32Yg
Sex Power: when women were different and men were disposable
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSX7iT0n65Q
Nice summary of Issues here: Why we need a men's rights movement
http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/2xmm3p/i_cant_believe_people_think_we_dont_need_a_mens/
Good reading:
The Myth of Male Power
http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Male-Power-Warren-Farrell-ebook/dp/B00IDHV5EM
The Privileged Sex
http://www.amazon.com/Privileged-Sex-Martin-van-Creveld-ebook/dp/B00EX5PJC2/ref=sr_1_sc_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1427403378&sr=1-1-spell&keywords=privilged+sex
No More Sex War
http://www.amazon.com/More-Sex-War-Neil-Lyndon/dp/1856191915/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1427403395&sr=1-1-catcorr&keywords=no+more+sex+war
The Second Sexism
http://www.amazon.com/Second-Sexism-Discrimination-Against-Boys/dp/0470674512/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1427403501&sr=1-1&keywords=second+sexism
The War Against Boys
http://www.amazon.com/War-Against-Boys-Misguided-Policies/dp/1451644183/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1427403440&sr=1-1&keywords=war+against+boys
[–]DestituteTeholBeddic 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
This content is one of the reasons I am anti-feminism, feminism,= seems only to focus on how females are the victims or got passed there victimization somehow. I on the other hand, believe people are individuals, and we all have different strengths, and weaknesses I believe in equality of opportunity, I do not believe in equality of outcome.
Will edit later on mobile
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
deleted What is this?
[–]drinkthebleach 87 points88 points89 points 11 years ago (22 children) | Copy Link
I stopped posting here when someone messaged me my parent's home address. I hate how acceptable doxxing is when it's against a person you disagree with.
[–]RadioHigher 36 points37 points38 points 11 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link
Posting here, to /r/mensrights? How did someone get your parents home address? Doxxing isn't allowed on reddit. Am I missing something?
[–]drinkthebleach 43 points44 points45 points 11 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link
A few years ago, basically all I did was sit here and read and comment and work, it really stressed me out, I wouldn't advise it. So when SRS started doxxing people I got that message, was pretty easily found through hunting around google. I just lurk now. Was around the time that Jeremiah guy was all over the place, if you remember that.
[+]RadioHigher -29 points-28 points-27 points 11 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link
I'm still confused. What did you say that warranted a doxxing? Why don't you make a throwaway or at least an account that isn't so easily traceable? Why are you suddenly posting again?
[–]drinkthebleach 22 points23 points24 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
Jesus, calm down. I thought I'd share I had a similar experience to the image posted was all. First off, nothing 'warrants a doxxing', I wouldn't wish it on anyone. Inexcusable. Second, I'm sure it wasn't one thing that I said, I was very active, every day with a ton of posts about how feminism hasn't been necessary for years, and from arguments on other subreddits, I know I got under a few people's skin.
[–]Bortasz[S] 33 points34 points35 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
He was here. He was in the enemy base so he is enemy. There is nothing more required.
[–]Daniel_Laixer 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Confused? Here, have some downvotes /s
[–]Egalitaristen 12 points13 points14 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
What did you say that warranted a doxxing?
That's why.
It's like asking "He raped you for no good reason?"
[–]Mhrby -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I would say the only difference is, that doxxing someone has 1 circumstance, to me, where it is acceptable.
If A is threatening to or has doxxed B, doxxing A and providing A's information to B (but not spreading it publically) is justified, i.e. assuring they know whom to report to police in case legal action becomes necessary
Not really any situation where raping someone back is justified/helpful
[–]Egalitaristen 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I didn't say that it was a completely fair comparison.
Still, the question of "What did you do" is victim blaming and plainly stupid.
[–]Mhrby 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I agree wholeheartedly with that, asking what a person did to provoke doxxing or any other attack, is not acceptable
[–]FriendlyAlcoholic -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Somehow I have trouble believing that you got doxxed and didn't switch to a different account or stop posting. This sounds like something you'd make up for fake internet points.
[–]drinkthebleach -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Psst.. I did stop posting. I don't care if people believe me I just thought it was relevant to the picture.
[–]FriendlyAlcoholic 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Well that sucks. It's kind of a shitty thing to do to someone who isn't hurting anyone. :/
[–]comrade-jim -4 points-3 points-2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Doxxing isn't allowed on reddit.
Obvious troll is obvious. Typical feminist/SJW. Just laughing harassment off and blaming the victim.
[–]flyingwolf 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Got me too, I was sent two links to google maps, one a street view of my house, one of my kids school.
Abandoned that name, never used it again, it would have been 6 years old this year.
I tracked down the person who doxxed me though, sent their info to the admins and the police. Their account has not posted since I did that.
[–]labiaflutteringby 13 points14 points15 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I'm a feminist and similar things have happened to me on reddit. Doxxing isn't ever acceptable.
[–]gramsespektrum 160 points161 points162 points 11 years ago* (157 children) | Copy Link
I think we need to define feminism whenever we discuss it. I know some girls who call themselves feminist who really want female privilege instead of equality. But I also know girls who call themselves feminists who want actual equal rights between genders.
If we're bashing feminists, I feel it's important to define what we're bashing. Surely, /r/mensrights support equal rights?
EDIT: Okay, I just looked up a couple of difinitions of feminism.
The Oxford Dictionary says: "The advocacy of women’s rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes."
Wikipedia says: "...to define, establish, and achieve equal political, economic, cultural, personal, and social rights for women. This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment."
I think the classic definition is pretty clear. It's about giving women the same rights as men.
EDIT 2: A lot of you are arguing that all feminists are crazy, that feminism is hateful, and that feminists don't want equality. I never claimed that some feminists aren't like that. The whole point of my post was to remind you that we need to define what feminism is, when we're criticizing it. Also, lots of women call themselves feminists without being like you guys describe them. Some of you seem to think that all women are crazy. Good luck with that. Misogyny is bad, mm-kay?
[–]Pathfinder24 12 points13 points14 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
"The advocacy of women’s rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes."
It's not about giving women the same rights as men. It's about giving women equal rights as men, only in areas in which men are currently advantaged, while maintaining discrepancies in areas where men are disadvantaged. This is not real equality.
[–]-Fender- 37 points38 points39 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
And in every single instance where feminists seek equal rights as men, we've supported them. What we take issue with is when they try to impose equal outcomes, even when equal opportunities were afforded.
What we argue against is legislative privileges and double standards being given to people on the sole basis of gender. We hate hypocrisy and support consistency in one's beliefs.
If someone labelling herself a feminists claims that she wants equality for all and actually acts and behaves in a way that is consistent with this statement, then we will take no issues whatsoever with her. An example of this would be Christina Hoff Sommers.
However, if they claim to support equality but only every argue about issues faced by a single gender, or if they argue in favour of female supremacy, then we will call them out. The large majority of feminists fit in this category. They might not all think that all men are horrible rapists and may not believe that the world would be better off without them, but they will still believe the feminist religious ideals of patriarchy (where being born a man is the original sin), and they will still believe that women should get recompense from men because they were born with that sin.
If someone does not believe in Patriarchy Theory, then I would not consider them a feminist, as that is probably the primary, core ideal of that ideology. If they do not believe in it and still support equality, then they would be Egalitarians. No matter what the dictionaries might say, this is basically where the divide resides nowadays.
[–]50PercentLies 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
What we take issue with is when they try to impose equal outcomes, even when equal opportunities were afforded.
So much of this.
[–]l-x 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
There's something profound about arguing against feminism in favor of egalitarianism. "No, you aren't a feminist," is such an arrogant, hostile, and condescending thing to tell someone. Take issue with the word as much as you want. Take issue with feminists who aren't, by Oxford definition, feminists at all. But don't tell a woman that she isn't a feminist because she believes in equal rights.
I understand the distinction you're making here, and I'm not saying you go around telling women they aren't feminists. I know a lot of people who DO, though, so I wanted to clarify that a bit.
[–]-Fender- 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
The people who label themselves as feminists have to understand that more and more, the distinction that I made is becoming the perspective of society. If they chose to label themselves as such, then they have to be aware that they will be perceived as supporting all of the anti-male propaganda done by feminists, as well as supporting all of the feminist politicians who are blocking bills that would grant men some of the same rights given to women.
A person can label herself as whatever the hell she wants. She can call herself a literal lemon, for all I care. Makes no difference to me. But their stated labels will have an impression on how people and society perceives them. It would be foolish to think otherwise.
So one should still give special attention to how he labels himself. If their beliefs are more egalitarian than feminist and they don't agree with what the feminists with legislative or societal power are currently doing, then they have to decide whether or not they wish to associate themselves with the actions of these people.
[–]l-x 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
There's a difference between saying, "listen, I'm a feminist, and by that I mean x" and having someone go, "oh cool, I get that."
And having someone instead go, "no no, that means you're egalitarian."
"No, it means I'm a feminist."
"Yes, but really, you're an egalitarian."
"Pretty sure I know what the fuck I am you condescending shit."
"Oh, so you're one of those feminists."
[–]-Fender- 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
What kind of autist would ever get in a conversation like that?
[–]l-x 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Hahahahaha ugh, thank you for not being a tool.
[–]DasUberVega 46 points47 points48 points 11 years ago* (61 children) | Copy Link
Personally Feminism and gender equality are two different things to me. Even the word 'Feminism' suggest that it is about women. Feminism suggests that men have all the rights they need and that women need those same rights. However, to say that women don't have certain advantages in certain situations is simply wrong. I feel everyone can get behind the term 'gender equality' but the word 'Feminism' just brings about so much hate.
[–][deleted] 39 points40 points41 points 11 years ago (22 children) | Copy Link
so let's call ourselves "men's rights."
[–]Pathfinder24 22 points23 points24 points 11 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
MRAs want equality in areas where men are disadvantaged and feminists want equality in areas where women are disadvantaged. Neither consider equality in all areas to be a primary focus.
I think MRAs have a greater argument (assuming the two are competing or contradictory, which they may not be) because their inequality is provable and institutionalized in the justice system, whereas inequality against women (which I do agree does exist) is mainly cultural and social, and does not manifest in law.
[–]R-Ra10 6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
The key distinction that everyone fails to make is the difference between equality of worth as persons and equality of function.
Feminists are dedicated to the perverse homogenization of gender functions. This is to force men and women to abandon their respective gender functions and to compete with each other at their complementary gender functions. It makes about as much sense as men competing against women at giving birth of women competing against men in an arm wrestling contest. Both will fail because they are neglecting their own gender functions to compete for a function that doesn't suit them.
Equality of worth as person however does not rely on equality of outcome. While men and women are both equally necessary because they each fulfill a vital gender function that the other cannot fulfill, their outcomes are not equal, as they were never meant to be. To unnaturally focus on equality of outcome as feminists have done is to destroy the harmonious gender functions of both men and women that are designed to complement each other.
[–]Lauzon_ 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Interesting post. Are there any essays/books you have come across that expound upon this view? Thanks.
[–]Pathfinder24 -4 points-3 points-2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
/r/theredpill
Ah get the fuck out of here with that shit.
[–]Demonspawn 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Bingo. Each gender fills a vital role in keeping society going forward, and we need both of those roles in order to keep society advancing.
Men giving up their role would be instant social suicide. A lot of people understand this at a gut level, which is why we still pressure men into filling their role.
Women giving up their role also kills society. The issue is that it happens at pace slow enough that the majority of people don't see the cause -> effect chain.
[–]xNOM 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
There is no such thing: Equality between men and women is not achievable
[–]cymrich 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
really? cause I'm actually here because I want equality for everyone... I don't expect preferential treatment but I don't want to be discriminated against for my gender either. I thought that was the basis of this sub... however just like "fem"inism, I do agree that we need a gender neutral name if we ever expect to make real progress.
[–]missted_opportunity 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
This is misleading. If feminists really wanted equality, they wouldn't try to censor and suppress the very discussion of it in public.
[–]AkaviriDragon 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
What's in a name? A rose, by any other name, would achieve equality given people would fucking listen to us for once, judge us by our actions, ended gender quotas, sorted the draft, illegalized circumcision, and feminists stopped silencing our conferences god fucking damn it. I'd join a women's rights group given the chance but guess what I couldn't find one because feminists have yet to be smart enough to destinguish themselves from the loonies.
The reason i'm on Men's Rights is because i'm supporting men's rights because they god damn need it I mean when was the last time you saw the problems I mentioned affecting women? inb4 women have their own problem which I will ask sources for.
[–]IrishBoJackson 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Well mascinism sounds as offensive as feminism...
[+]Demonspawn -10 points-9 points-8 points 11 years ago* (9 children) | Copy Link
Yes, because the MRM is not an equality movement, despite the influx and takeover by leftists and egalitarians.
There is no equality between men and women. Attempting to seek it harms the status of men.
ETA: since this post has gotten the attention of r/all, I'll explain further:
"Until you can demonstrate a way of convincing society to treat men and women as equally disposable, this fantasy of equality between men and women cannot exist and is not a valid argument." --Me
[+][deleted] 11 years ago* (8 children) | Copy Link
[–]Castigale 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
This is gonna be a tough point, so try to follow along as best you can.
What about "men's rights" even comes close to suggesting "egalitarianism" is within the scope of focus? Granted the vast majority of PEOPLE (both men and women) are very much in favor of equality, but "Men's Rights" is concerned with Men's. Rights.
That does NOT suggest oppression, discrimination, segregation, or prejudice, but it also doesn't suggest a concern for equality on a wider societal scale. Men's Rights is concerned with fighting for issues that disenfranchise MEN. Its not a slight against anyone, its a promotion of better treatment for men in areas where injustice exists. All segments of society have they're own advocacy groups and they don't have to pretend to fight for the whole world to do so. Its not an insult towards others, its just a focus.
[+][deleted] 11 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link
[–]Castigale 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
No. I'm afraid I never did understand Corky, but anyway, seems you wanna fight so lets talk.
Unless you are equally concerned for all genders, you will never see relief for yours.
You seem to imply that unless your advocacy is so broad and vague as to include concern for everyone, that in turn no one will want to join you. That kind of flies in the face of EVERY POLITICAL ISSUE IN OUR CULTURE. Do you honestly think that the Democrats or Republicans would be where they are now if they fought for every single issue all at once?
I'm sorry, corky, but that's just bad strategy.
Equality includes everyone, and I'm all for it, but that's why everyone needs their own representatives. Frankly, that's the only way it could possibly turn out. Even if the MRM took on equality for everyone, it would still have to splinter off into men's issues, female issue's, PoC issues, homosexual issues, etc.
Believe it or not, you need others to accept you in order for the movement to be successful. This is why radfem is failing and feminism is losing credibility. They are not for equality, they are for the destruction of men. You are advocating the same thing which will equally disastrous results.
Well Corky you got me on the first point. A movement DOES require supporters, and wouldn't you know it, a movement in favor of men's rights has the support of other men who find themselves in need of it.
And while I'd like to agree with you on the issue of radfems, I have to disagree on how that applies to the MRM. So far I've seen nothing to suggest the destruction of women or the repeal of women's rights, or hashtags similar to "killallmen". I've yet to see anyone laughing at a woman who had her boobs chopped off (as opposed to the women on 'The Talk' who are seen gleefully laughing over stories of men who had their penises brutally removed) Its really not the same.
[–]Demonspawn 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
If being an MRA means thinking like that, I don't want to be an MRA.
Considering you have a grand total of 1 post to /r/MensRights in your first page of post history, I'll take your comments with a grain of salt.
You are the opposite of what the MRA movement needs.
Funny that someone who isn't an MRM is telling me what the movement needs.
You must understand that this approach is divisive
Of course it's divisive. The egalitarians need to GTFO and quit corrupting the movement. The leftists need to decide if the MRM or if leftism is more important to them, as the two are incompatible.
and will alienate any supporters sympathetic to our situation.
The MRM isn't a popularity contest. There is no political solution for the MRM.
[–]Demonspawn -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
No, I've earned being an MRA.
You think what you've gone through is what makes you an MRA rather than what you've done?
I think I've identified the problem.
I actually want and need the cause to be successful.
So which are you picking out of Revolt, Expat, or Turtle?
I want fairness and equality.
Those are contradictory terms. Which do you want?
[–]StartTheRuckus 6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Feminism and gender equality are different things to me, but that isn't necessarily a problem. I believe the problem stems when feminists claim that they are the same thing. Gender equality itself is just a part of general 'equality', something I think we all aim for. But it's a big, big word and saying "I just want equality for everyone" or "I'm not a feminist, I'm an egalitarian" seems both unnecessary and impractical at getting anything done. Humans work best when they can focus on one certain thing; it's the division of labour pretty much. People that fight for racial equality are, hopefully, also in favour of equal rights for LGBTQ people, but it would be impractical if they also had to actively fight for LGBTQ rights, and rights for the disabled etc. in the name of 'equality'. As long as a supporter of racial equality doesn't hinder the progress of equality in general, that's fine, and that's why focusing on the rights of women is fine, too. The problem comes when feminism tries to equate itself with gender equality, or even equality as a whole: it belittles the problems men face, and it ignores them. This is /r/mensrights, I don't need to list the inequalities faced by males in our society today. If a person would rather fight against the injustices faced by females instead, of which there are still many, that's fine! Similarly, if they'd rather be an LGBTQ activist, that's also their choice to make. But when feminism is seen as 'gender equality for everyone', as it claims and strives itself to be, things like 'men's rights' are seen as unnecessary, when that's clearly not true. There's nothing wrong with feminism, in general; in fact I believe it was and still can be a very good thing, though one I am not personally interested in. The problem is feminism parading around like it's the be-all, end-all of equality when it is far from that, and silencing the views of others that work towards better lives for other groups, or dare to question some of the more 'out there' goals and statements of feminism.
[–]AkaviriDragon 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
hey, sorta random question, what's happening in our comments? are we getting invaded or did we get turned into a default sub ?
[–]Vice5772 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
This thread went to /r/all
[–]gramsespektrum 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (34 children) | Copy Link
I think the reason it's called feminism instead of say, equalism, is that it was invented back when women really were oppressed. When they couldn't vote, make a career, be independent etc. The goal was still equality, not female privilege.
I don't see how it's different from his sub named Men's Rights.
[–]Demonspawn 10 points11 points12 points 11 years ago (31 children) | Copy Link
The goal was still equality, not female privilege.
The goal was men's rights while rejecting men's responsibilities.
The goal was equal rights, but equal rights with lesser responsibilities is supremacy, not equality.
Feminism was never about equality.
[+][deleted] -6 points-5 points-4 points 11 years ago (30 children) | Copy Link
Is this propaganda war helping to advance men's rights in any way? Can you explain how this zero-sum game mentality that asserts you must tear down feminism at every opportunity helps in any way?
[–]Vandechoz 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
As I said in another comment the other day, you can ignore a bully once or twice, but at some point the only way to get up is to push the bully out of the way.
[–]Feminism_Is_Evil 6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
Can you explain how this zero-sum game mentality that asserts you must tear down feminism at every opportunity helps in any way?
At every opportunity? No. Where feminism is spreading false information or toxic thought? Absolutely. Unfortunately for feminism, this sort of thing is depressingly common.
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
Is this propaganda war helping to advance men's rights in any way?
It isn't really propaganda though, women fought for the right to vote WITHOUT the added responsibility of selective services. The current state of the US is that women are provided with all rights by default whereas men MUST sign up for selective services otherwise they are denied citizenship.
The most pathetic part of this is that no feminist is fighting to have selective services abolished or to have a requirement for women to sign up for selective services as well. The claim to a desire for equal rights is a downright lie, it has always been equal rights, zero responsibility.
[–]Demonspawn 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
Considering feminism and Bureaugamy are the #1 destroyer of men's rights, yes.
Can you explain how this zero-sum game mentality
Do we have access to infinite resources?
[–]DasUberVega 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I understand that, but if both supporters of men's rights and women's rights are truly about gender equality, then both sides would drop the names which are essentially fighting against that.
[–]garglemesh42 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Bullshit. Women already have more rights than men in the US, Canada, UK, most of Europe, and probably some places I don't know about. They have equality of opportunity. Here in the US, they get the right to vote without having to sign up for selective service. NOW (the National Organization of Women) is fighting against 50/50 shared custody as the default for children of divorced parents. Most men don't bother trying to get custody if the mother really wants it, because they know there's no way in hell they're going to win without a protracted legal battle unless they can prove the mother is a violent abuser, a druggie, or an alcoholic. ... and protracted legal battles cost lots of money. Feminists perpetuate the "women victims, men are abusers" meme that erases male abuse victims and ignores female abusers. Feminist-run shelters for domestic abuse victims generally won't let men in, and they try to shut down men-only DV victim shelters.
There are some feminists that really believe in equality, but the ones that have money, run charities, and have the ears of our politicians are trying to hurt men to help women. If you want an example, look at the Title 9 college rape tribunal kangaroo "courts". Talk to the feminists that ask "Why can't we expel a man based only on an accusation?"
Men's Rights is about equality. Big Feminism, the only ones our politicians hear from, are not. They're about helping women, even when women already have it better than everybody else. They're the ones that think that when women commit crimes, they shouldn't go to jail for as long as men, in fact, we should get rid of jails for women altogether. They're not about equality. The feminists that believe feminism is actually about equality are dangerously misinformed, but they're useful idiots for the radfems and large feminist organizations.
Again, Men's Rights is about equality. When you look at the actions of feminists, while they may claim to be for equality, they're actively fighting against equal rights for men. They're not just standing in the way of equality, they're trying to make things more unequal. Who the hell in their right mind would support them? If you want equality, feminism and its poisonous ideas like the patriarchy hypothesis (it isn't really a theory) and its simplistic view of the world have to go. We're better than them. We may not have public sympathy on our side, but we have something potentially more powerful: Facts. Evidence. Proof of society's bias against men, proof that women have more rights than men.
Now, don't get me wrong. There may be some areas where women are disadvantaged compared to men. I've never really seen evidence of their existence here in the US, but I'm willing to concede that they might exist, and if those areas do exist, I support fixing it so that women have the same opportunities that men do - but once we have equality of opportunity I'm against forcing equality of outcome - that's called "tilting the playing field", or, more honestly, "cheating".
[–]overcherie 21 points22 points23 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
People who want equal rights are not feminists, they're equalists. I would love for this to be put on TwoX but it would get downvoted into oblivion. Women need to open their eyes and realize how privileged they really are. I am a woman and I hate feminism. It's putting one gender over another. We're all people.
[–]obliviious 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
they're equalists.
Humanists
FTFY
[–]jordanleite25 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Yep male feminist here. I fully support women paying for their own meals on a date, making women apply for the draft, re-doing sexist child support/custody laws, etc
[–]Vice5772 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
What about addressing the huge lack gender parity in Universities? 60-66% of women versus 33-40% men. What about taking gender neutral words like "bossy" and applying them to gendered issues of being the primary inhibitor of women seeking leadership positions? When we see stuff like this, we see that feminism is clearly full of shit.
[–]DavidByron2 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
all issues the MRA lobby on and the feminists lobby against.
[–]jordanleite25 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The ironic thing is I think this whole feminist wave actually backfired for the most part. I've seen more things that people realized women had going for them than they realized they had going against them.
LOL note that the word "responsibilities" appears nowhere.
[–]Sir_Nivag 42 points43 points44 points 11 years ago (27 children) | Copy Link
I feel this community has dramatically shifted recently. It used to be about true equality and true feminists were on our side and we were on theirs. Unfortunately every group has its extremists or crazies. Sadly, that goes for us too and it's gotten worse. Now feminism is the enemy and stories solely about women are now men's rights issues. Now I have to defend myself and/or feel shame when openly stating my allegiance here.
I really just wish there was an all-encompassing equality movement that had no other agenda than just that. With a clear set of ideologies and beliefs that helped drive the movement and easily denounce the people who identify as a member but clearly have no place there.
[–]I_A_M 20 points21 points22 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Gender Egalitarianism may be what you're looking for.
[–]autowikibot 6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Gender equality:
Gender equality, also known as sex equality, gender egalitarianism, sexual equality or equality of the genders, is the view that men and women should receive equal treatment, and should not be discriminated against based on gender. This is the objective of the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which seeks to create equality in law and in social situations, such as in democratic activities and securing equal pay for equal work. The related topic of rights is treated in two separate articles, Men's rights and Women's rights. Image i - One of generic symbols for gender equality
Gender equality, also known as sex equality, gender egalitarianism, sexual equality or equality of the genders, is the view that men and women should receive equal treatment, and should not be discriminated against based on gender. This is the objective of the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which seeks to create equality in law and in social situations, such as in democratic activities and securing equal pay for equal work. The related topic of rights is treated in two separate articles, Men's rights and Women's rights.
Image i - One of generic symbols for gender equality
Interesting: Ministry of Gender Equality and Family | European Parliament Committee on Women's Rights and Gender Equality | Minister for Gender Equality (Denmark) | European Institute for Gender Equality
Parent commenter can toggle NSFW or delete. Will also delete on comment score of -1 or less. | FAQs | Mods | Magic Words
[–]Sir_Nivag 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I like this a lot. This is where I should be.
[–]cvillano 10 points11 points12 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I think the rise of SJW and all the publicity they've been getting recently, from the likes of Anita Sarkesian, Suey Park, Rebecca Watson etc, has really rallied a lot of neutrals into the anti-SJW, anti-feminist camp and they're reacting very strongly to these new pc police. I think there's been a surge in people who didn't care either way that are now looking for ways to fight back and/or vent their frustrations.
[–]Vice5772 10 points11 points12 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Yep, the tipping point for me was Elevatorgate, where Rebecca Watson made every man who's ever propositioned a woman for coffee feel like a rapist. I don't recall any feminist outrage against Rebecca Watson for that bullshit.
[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It used to be about true equality and true feminists were on our side and we were on theirs.
Feminism has kinda always been against men's rights. There's a reason they drove Warren Farrell out of NOW so many years ago for standing up for abused men.
[–]fuckfeminister 18 points19 points20 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
Look at the fucking FAQ why feminism isn't the answer for mens rights. It's been debated over, and over, and over again. Most feminists don't support equality, the sooner people realise this the better.
[–]AnArcher 9 points10 points11 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Yes, I'm thisclose to unsubscribing to this sub because it's turned into more of a he-man woman-haters club, which is enough like the rest of reddit overall that this sub has become extraneous to me. There must be an egalitarian sub somewhere, but this aint it.
[–]xNOM 6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link
/r/egalitarianism. how hard was that?
[–]AnArcher 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I am not a smart man.
[–]questionnmark 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
But you know what love is.
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link
Why shouldn't you have to defend your position when you claim allegiance to what many of us have know first hand is a hate group? [Edit: misunderstood the person I replied to, he's not identifying as a feminist]
People are going to ask you questions and for evidence of your claims, they might even point out that you're wrong about something, if you don't like it you can find the door.
The fact that you don't understand how an article about a woman can be about men's rights shows you don't really know what you're talking about with regards to the content in this sub.
[–]Sir_Nivag -4 points-3 points-2 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
And on that note, I'm done here. I've not been here for a long time, though I wouldn't consider it short. I've obviously been in denial but I thought this was a place to shed light on the injustices done to men, and strive to correct them at the expense of nobody, because that's how the world fucking progresses. Not by sitting here crying about shitty individuals and encouraging slander. We have a long way to go before this world is a sanctuary for men and women alike. The only way it's going to get better for us, for them, for you, is through mutual respect, empathy, and support. This arbitrary hatred you get off on is riddled with hypocrisy and is nothing but toxic to its own "cause". YOU are what stands in the way of equality.
I understand I'm being a hypocrite myself after mentioning awareness of the crazies within every group. I don't want to be a part of any movement where even a minute number of individuals believe its fundamental purpose is hatred.
Good riddance.
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link
What about my post espoused hatred?
The fact that your response to a post asking why you think you shouldn't have to defend your position is "I'm done" says a lot about you.
[–]Sir_Nivag -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
You literally said this is a hate group in your first sentence, unless I am misunderstanding.
I actually misunderstood your post originally, I thought you were saying you identified as a feminist and didn't like how you were treated here, not that you identified as an MRA and didn't like the way you were treated outside this sub, my bad
[–]Sir_Nivag -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Because I want to be a part of an equal rights movement that doesn't have questionable agendas / ideologies. Where people look at what the group is trying to achieve and have nothing to attack. I understand that's very idealistic. There's always going to be people with out-dated views that maybe certain demographics don't deserve equality, but at least the people attacking it would know that. Like, I want people who genuinely believe in equality to look at it and not be misinformed. MRA and feminism are both flawed in that regard. There's so much hate for feminism here and you don't even realise that 75% of them are on our side. Feminism isn't tumblr. But we have the same problem from their perspective.
MRAs heap praise on the occasional egalitarian feminist that gets notoriety (Christina Hoff Sommers comes to mind), and are critical of feminist policies and ideas that are harmful to men.
It's pretty reasonable when you are criticizing aspects of an ideology, rather than hating a gender.
Most of the bad press that MRAs receive is a product of poor public opinion on the idea that men aren't completely privileged and women aren't oppressed, and the subsequent media effort to smear the MRM as misogynistic, violent, pedophiles, etc because that gets clicks.
If you're going to limit yourself to movements which have a pristine reputation, you're going to miss out on any group that goes against popular narratives or the media or is even remotely controversial.
Look what happened with gamergate.
You're not at all suspicious of the fact that anything going against the top-selling claims of widespread misogyny and oppression or pointing out media bias, double standards, and hypocrisy gets labeled at misogynist by the media?
[–]SimCity8000 -5 points-4 points-3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I came here because I was curious about what the men's rights movement was about and basically found a donut of misogyny sprinkled with a few legitimate rights issues.
For example, I'd love it if there were more links to studies that find evidence of anti-male discrimination in family court than links that seek to debunk the gender pay gap.
[–]DavidByron2 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Feminism is a hate movement. In their popular phase hate movements are often seen as "progressive" but they are not. The clue is that feminists lobby against basic civil rights.
[–]blueXcat 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
...based on the premise that men have more right. And that's the problem.
Mens rights want equal right, but also fight were they have less rights.
[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
But I also know girls who call themselves feminists who want actual equal rights between genders.
Given that the vast majority of women reject feminism either that means this is not the definition or most women don't feel they deserve to be equal to men.
I'd put money on the former.
[–]cuteman 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It would serve to better define them as sjw or something similar. Disparaging feminism can turn some people off who might otherwise be allies.
Just like mensrights often gets combined with theredpill and while there may be some participant overlap, completely misses the thesis of mensrights and is therefore invalid as a philosophical comparison.
[–]Demonspawn 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Surely, /r/mensrights[1] support equal rights?
Do men and women have equal responsibilities?
[–]Flareprime 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I know some girls who call themselves feminist who really want female privilege instead of equality. But I also know girls who call themselves feminists who want actual equal rights between genders.
Third option - people who just default to feminism because they've been told its good and right, and have stayed that way because they've never put any thought or research into the subject.
Almost hard to blame them, with the schools promoting feminism and the peer pressure - they just become a groupthink mob (which can happen to anyone). Those are the ones I wish could be educated, but its all but impossible to break through that bubble of feminist social influence.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
It doesn't even need to be a groupthink mob. They might just identify with "feminism" because they like the dictionary definition, but it isn't something they feel or act very strongly about so they actually aren't even aware of the incoherent (with the dictionary definition) things done in the name of "their" movement.
[–]Vice5772 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
If you identify with an ideology because of a dictionary definition, you're an idiot. That goes for any ideology
[–]Electroverted 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
If you think that neo (third wave) feminists are going to care about dictionary definitions
You're gonna have a bad time
[+][deleted] 11 years ago* (10 children) | Copy Link
[–]gramsespektrum -4 points-3 points-2 points 11 years ago* (9 children) | Copy Link
Okay, says who? I was going with the Oxford Dictionary definition. What is your source?
Edit: downvote asking for source - wtf mensrights, get a grip.
[–]Castigale 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
The dictionary doesn't define feminism.
Feminists do.
[–]DavidByron2 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
dictionary also says marriage is between a man and a woman. Do you agree with that too?
[–]Brosona 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Sure, they argue for equal rights and opportunities, but squeal like a stuck pig if the outcomes for the higher class jobs aren't 50/50 or biased in their favor, but you hear nary a peep out of them regarding equality in lower class, dangerous jobs.
You never seem to hear from them when the time comes for them to have the responsibilities that go with their equal rights either.
There is a difference between wanting actual equal rights for men and women vs wanting the rights and privileges that men have on top of the ones women had but with none of the additional responsibilities.
[–]SweetiePieJonas 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
If we're going by the "classic definition," it's long since time for feminism to pack it in.
[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link
The problem with Feminism is they believe that females are below males and that they need to be raised to be on the same level that males are, but in doing so, they're actually raised higher than males because in reality, both Genders have their downsides and upsides, but it seems feminists only notice the faults in being a female.
I mean the entire movement focuses on women, it's named Feminism for gods sake. You'd think for a movement that supposedly wants equality between genders, would fight and look into all discrimination against the genders, not just female problems. Where's the Equality in that? That's like a campaign called "AntiRacism" that only focuses on racism towards black people, and not Asians, white people and Mexicans. Sure, racism against black people exists, but so does racism against all the other races too, and failure to see that is just ignorant, and you're gonna be hated by everyone else. So no wonder why nobody likes feminists.
Idc if I get downvoted for this tbh.
[–]Black_caped_man 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
but... but... all evil comes from the patriarchy and feminism wants to kill the patriarchy and when they do all racism, sexism, against all people will be gone! /S
I've been hanging around this sub long enough to have seen both types you describe... you know what usually happens to the latter (i.e. the ones that truly want equal rights)? they will try to open up discussion and bridge the gap and use all their good intentions to try to get us all to talk nicely together... and then the feminism sub will ban them!
[–]Amannelle 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The problem lies in what we see as "equality." Do we see it as equity and supplemental assistance, or do we see it as direct equal treatment regardless of starting point? If the former, then often women will be treated better than men, with some good reason and some not. If the latter, men and women will be treated equal and take longer to truly be equal.
[–]mindless_gibberish 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link
Feminism has a lot of factions, though. The Gender Feminists (ugh, men!) seem pretty terrible, or just misguided, while Sex Positive Feminists seem to have the right idea...
[–]DavidByron2 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link
But they all hate men. They all think men are rapists and believe there's a "patriarchy"
[–]mindless_gibberish 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
I'm no expert, but I never got that impression from the Sex Positive Feminists that I've heard from (mostly on the Sex Nerd Sandra podcast). They certainly don't hang their hat on the Patriarchy, or cast all men as rapists.
[–]Vandechoz 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
They certainly don't hang their hat on the Patriarchy
That's like a Christian not hanging their hat on the divinity of Jesus. I mean, I'm sure there's a denomination out there, but...why even call yourself a Christian at that point?
[–]mindless_gibberish 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I don't know... I think we could definitely have Feminism without Patriarchy Theory, just not the other way around.
[–]DavidByron2 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Honestly I can't remember any campaign or slogan or outreach by a feminist that wasn't based on attacking men. it's just who they are. Can you give an example of what this group says?
[–]mindless_gibberish 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
My understanding is that they are a reaction to the anti-porn, slut shaming "all sex is rape" school of thought.
[–]DavidByron2 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
They just seem to be women in the sex industry reacting against feminists attacking them.
I suppose there is truth to that. It seems to be a legitimate offshoot of feminism, though
Sex Nerd Sandra
Why do you think they are feminist?
Her blog has no real, mention of it and "sexism" and "feminism" aren't even categories. Google search of entire site has about two mentions of the word by commentators (one is saying Sandra needs to stop being down on feminism?)
http://sexnerdsandra.com/tag/feminism
http://sexnerdsandra.com/tag/sexism
[–]mindless_gibberish 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I don't know about Sandra herself - it isn't a feminist podcast. But she has interviewed porn actors and sex educators, many of whom would identify as sex positive feminists. Nina Hartley comes to mind.
[–]DavidByron2 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Nina Hartley
I can't really find her talking about anything but pornography. She sometimes mentions "equal pay" and "patriarchy" (which are both areas where feminists lie about men and use hate slogans) as legitimate issues for feminism to attack but she never says what she means by them. So on face value that's some anti-male stuff she's saying but she might just be saying that out complete ignorance because she really has no interest in anything but porn. So I guess in what sense is she a feminist then?
The only topic she knows about, she opposes feminism. If she knew the wage gap was bullshit anti-male hate too, would she change her mind on it? I don't know.
[–]redunndan 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The Oxford Dictionary is giving us the sugar-coated politically correct definition of feminism. It's paraded around as some noble notion of gender equality. But we shouldn't define it by its faux sentiment but rather its real world application.
In its simplest form feminism is the usurpation of male authority by women. It represents women's desire to control men.
Control isn't bad, but when authority is put in the hands of those unqualified to wield it, it becomes oppressive. Rule by women translates into oppressive finger-wagging. They simply aren't qualified to control men. This is why men are designed to be in charge.
[+][deleted] -11 points-10 points-9 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Surely, /r/mensrights support equal rights?
LOL
It's funny how when someone criticizes feminism for the extreme statements made by feminists, so many "real feminists" come by to say how these are extremists who don't represent feminism.
Yet when the extremists who "don't represent feminism" are making these statements of which we complain, the "real feminists" are nowhere to be found.
Funny how that is?!
Until you "real feminists" shout down the extremists with the same fervor you reserve for anything that could questionably be considered "misogyny" (whatever that means this week), I'm lumping you all in the same category.
Silence is endorsement.
[–]Bortasz[S] 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
This is so infuriating... If they put half of effort they put in to screaming NAFALT in to actually fighting radfem... God world would be so much better place.
[–]DavidByron2 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
If they put half of effort they put in to screaming NAFALT in to actually fighting radfem
Then they wouldn't get the sexism they want.
[–]CoffeeQuaffer 233 points234 points235 points 11 years ago* (56 children) | Copy Link
"We're not all like that." Rather than, "I'm sorry"
Umm... yes, that's completely right. They're not all like that. And someone who is not guilty shouldn't have to apologize on behalf of someone who is.
Having said that, this line of reasoning was not acceptable to feminists when they, by and large, painted all men as rapists, murderers, pedophiles, etc. and men responded with #NotAllMen.
Here, I'm just talking about a line of reasoning. Men, as a group, and feminists, as a group, do not share the same amount of sin on their shoulders.
[–]bluescape 59 points60 points61 points 11 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link
Even still, one is a group that you're born into, the other is a group that you choose to be in. You may be born Russian, but you choose to be a communist. I get what you're saying about group responsibility, but I think the distinction needs to be made between being born into a group, and choosing to affiliate yourself with said group.
[–]outcastded 33 points34 points35 points 11 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
Yes. But even if I became Muslim, I wouldn't feel the need to apologize for the terrorists.
[–]Just_pass_it_to_Will 12 points13 points14 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
You are correct, however muslims do hold protests and rallys to show that they do not agree with what the muslim extremists are doing. After any terrorist attacks that was caused by muslims, right afterwards muslims will usually hold rally to show the world that they do not agree with the extremists. I've never seen feminists publicly protest the crazy feminists that are giving the movement a bad name. This post actually surprised me I haven't seen many women call out modern day feminism.
[–]Winter_of_Discontent 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Solid point.
[–]Cthulu2014 -4 points-3 points-2 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
But ... you would still presumably denounce it or go out of your way to let people know their actions have nothing to do with being Muslim
[–]outcastded 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Yes. Probably. Muslims have actually done that here in Norway.
On the other hand, it seems that even "good feminists" stay silent when their "terrorist sub culture" are being loud.
[–]jb_trp 12 points13 points14 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Exactly. And accepting the label of "feminism" legitimizes the radical, angry, hateful feminists. Do I think there might be one or two actually nice people in the Westboro Baptist Church? Maybe. Would I ever join that church or feel okay with others joining that church? Hell no. I wouldn't want to encourage even more hate or support to that worldview. Why would I want to do the same for feminists? However, simply accepting the title of feminist and encouraging others to join the movement does exactly that for the hateful feminists.
[–]CoffeeQuaffer 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I agree, of course :)
[–]fanboat 23 points24 points25 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
I feel like feminism suffers from a similar problem that Islam does. If there are a bunch of people claiming to represent the group doing evil stuff, what do you do? I mean, if enough people (maybe a dozen) roamed the world stabbing children shouting "for Buddha!" eventually there would be a consensus that 'the Buddhists' needed to get their shit straight.
The difference being the ratio of one set to another. I've seen feminist speakers that I've wholly agreed with but their point of view does not seem to be shared widely nor viewed as representative of feminism.
[–]geekygirl23 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Oh yes, the poor misunderstood pedants choosing to call themselves feminists instead of just not being sexist assholes. Whatever will they do if they can't use that exact word. It's in the dictionary you know!
[–]fanboat 9 points10 points11 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Well that's my point. Who's to say the 'real' Muslims aren't the ones out blowing shit up? If someone holds up your name or cause or whatever while doing shit you don't like, what do you do?
[–]EclipseClemens 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The extremists are always the more true religious followers. Example: If you don't believe in a literal garden of eden, you don't have any reason for Jesus to die for original sin. Now I'm an atheist, but it's undeniably true the more hardline the religion, the more closely they follow the text.
[–]geekygirl23 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Find a cause you agree with.
[–]jonnytechno 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Most progressive Muslim communities have publicly denounced atrocities such as 9/11 7/7 et al, something that feminism does despite 're knowledge that the message & practice have veered off corse (misandry & play do safe spaces)
[–]Pegguins -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
What you do is drop the poisoned name. If you truly represent equality, neutrality and all the good things then the name of a movement should be pointess. Instead making your movement as strong as possible to change as much stuff as possible should be your goal. As it is, the endless inbickering and "no true scotsman" nonsense that goes around and around in feminism, not to mention the impressions young men (due, in large part, to how the "feminists" have treated them) mean its a much weaker movement then it should be.
[–]Alzael 14 points15 points16 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Men, as a group, and feminists, as a group, do not share the same amount of sin on their shoulders.
I would disagree in the case of a group that you willingly belong to. There is a responsibility for the group,because you support the group itself. So when the group acts, it acts with your help unless you do something to actively oppose it.
To go with the Nazism example you used below.Hitler could only do what he did because he had the support of millions backing him,without all of his followers he would have just been some second rate painter.His followers do hold responsibility for what Nazism did because they supported Nazism,even if they didn't personally kill every Jew.They gave their support to the regime that did.
I would also point out, that feminists are perfectly ok with being blamed for everything when it's something good. They will proudly declare that all of feminism was responsible for women voting, or give all feminism credit for the things they like. So, it is only fair to hold them equally accountable for the bad things feminism does. Of course that's when they hypocritically pull out the NAFALT.
[–]BALROGG 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
"We're not all like that." Rather than, "I'm sorry" And someone who is not guilty shouldn't have to apologize on behalf of someone who is.
And someone who is not guilty shouldn't have to apologize on behalf of someone who is.
I don't think she means it as an apology but rather a sign of empathy, such as "I'm sorry for the death of your relative."
[–]Electroverted 6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Men do not have a choice when identifying themselves by gender.
Women most definitely have a choice when identifying themselves as feminist.
Therefore, a woman who identifies as feminist and responds with "not all feminists" instead of "I apologize for their conduct" is a shit-head too.
[–]hugolp 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
You are correct from a theoretical point of view but I think he is just referring to common courtesy. If I identify as a part of a group and someone tells me someone from that group said or did something hurtful there is a difference between answering: 1) well, we are not all like that, or 2)I'm sorry that happened, hopefully you get to know us better and get a better impression.
Its obvious that you are not directly responsible for what another individual does, but no need to be a dick about it. But given feminists "in your face" "I can do no wrong attitude" I can imagine the common sense they displayed.
[–]SilencingNarrative 6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
I don't think the woman in the poster was blaming a person who said nafalt for the actions of the ones who doxxed her. She was saying that a label, like feminist, that is not actively policed well enough to exclude doxxers is not a label she wants to adopt. The inability, or unwillingness, of moderate feminists to call out the hatred of men in their ranks renders the label feminist dishonorable.
When people who assert that women are morally or intellectually inferior to men are not routinely called out in the MRM, I will stop calling myself an MRA.
[–]Jesus_marley 8 points9 points10 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
It's more the reaction of becoming instantly defensive of the in group rather than acknowledging that members of that group behave atrociously and denouncing them for that behaviour. I'm sure you will note the very public efforts the MRM has shown to weed out those who claim solidarity but act contrary to the goal. An example is the public dunounciation of the attacker of the feminist protester. No one ever did learn that persons identity, but the MRM pulled together and created a tangible reward for any info leading to their arrest. Now, some people may claim that there never was an attacker, and that may very well be true, but until there is evidence that shows that to be the case, we assume the attack to be real and react accordingly.
Contrast that to the typical NAFALT reaction whenever real evidence of feminist hate comes to light. All you see is handwaving and a declaration that most feminists are good people, but they as a group still just sit back and ride the waves created by the hatemongers...
[–]MarkRippetoesGlutes 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
It's definitely complex but I think this is an important distinction to make.
If you look at /u/bluescape's comment about choosing to be part of a group vs being born into it, I think that further adds to this point too.
If you're a muslim and someone says that muslims, motivated by islam, attacked them, then you saying "I'm sorry that happened to you" already suggests that you disagree with that outcome as well as respecting the experience of that person. When you say, "nah urh, not true!!" it turns the conversation into a denial of the persons experience. Now if the person is wrong in there account then that's a different matter altogether but unfortunately there are bad people in every group so it's not unlikely what the person in OP's pic experienced.
But by establishing their actions as wrong first, you equally establish that you, in this example you are a feminist, also think that those actions are wrong and hence an apology makes sense i.e. "I'm sorry that you experienced that", not "I'm personally sorry for those events even though I wasn't a part of them".
We're talking "sorry", like "I'm sorry for your loss", not "I'm sorry because I was responsible".
EDIT: I'm a little confused as to why this is now marked as a controversial comment so if anyone wants to chime in I'd be happy for the opinion.
[–]geekygirl23 7 points8 points9 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Someone that isn't sexist and discriminatory shouldn't pick a moniker that
a) Sounds sexist and discriminatory.
b) Has a vocal group of assholes claiming that same moniker and making sure everyone knows it.
Say you are for equal rights, hell, just say you are a decent human being. Calling yourself a feminist is unnecessary and loaded.
[–]CoffeeQuaffer 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I agree. It sounds discriminatory, and in some feminist conferences, they actively discriminate against men: men are allowed to visit, sit, and listen, but are not allowed to speak there. And I also agree that among feminists there are a vocal group of assholes, etc.
I have friends who call themselves feminists, but they have been so busy achieving great things in their lives that they have paid little attention to these noisy feminists. So, when my friends call themselves feminists, it's just a harmless label, and I don't care enough to convince them not to use it.
[–]ShitArchonXPR 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
Exactly. They should not have to apologize.
What would be a good idea for them to do, however, is at least admit that those people who said she deserved to be raped were terrible people and what they did was wrong. If they want to get her to support feminism, can't they at least say "that's terrible! Those people are bad, don't internalize what they tell you! They are just calling themselves that to feel good about activism without actually doing anything, come hang out with us REAL feminists!" Instead of saying "not all feminists" with the subtext "how DARE you insult feminism just because feminists treated you like shit as a female sexual abuse survivor," they could at least say "not all feminists" with the subtext "those evil fucks! What they did was terrible! Those aren't real feminists, those are egotistical pricks! How dare they claim they were empowering women!"
They don't. Because, unlike childhood abuse victims, SJWs have no awareness of and sensitivity to people's emotional states, so saying things that actually are compelling to people never occurs to them. Big Red's actions on camera are how you can tell that radfems don't become radfems because they were abuse victims or grew up being molested and beaten by their dad or other males (whereas Jocelyn Zichterman actually was). She does not have self-awareness or sensitivity to how she comes off to other people.
They also have no guilt. It's like when John Stossel would catch con artists on live camera. They had no shame that they were caught red-handed lying and ripping people off, they were angry and offended that someone would criticize them. After being caught, they'd keep it up and be at it again. At least the child molesters on To Catch A Predator show some fucking remorse on occasion; the con artists are people you want to punch in the face. Rebecca Watson and Anita Sarkeesian have been known to con people for money. I think they have the same personality as those assholes John Stossel confronted.
Another reason they don't is that they feel like they are being insulted when she talks about the people who shat on her. In other words, they perceive the bigots as members of their group, when they should percieve the bigots as assholes who have nothing to do with them, who are giving them a bad name, who donned the label "feminist" to feel good. It's like the Dragnet episode where a con man bilked people out of their money wearing a police uniform. Detective Joe Friday didn't shame the witnesses for saying what happened, he told them it's a con man and took steps to stop him. He did not have the mindset of "they're insulting my tribe," he had the mindset of "that's not a real cop, that's a criminal who is wearing a police uniform."
[–]Bortasz[S] 9 points10 points11 points 11 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link
But Only feminists that call out bullshit is Christina Hoff Summers. and she is Attack by feminists constantly. Called that she is not True feminists constantly. When I search for women who are in this gender debate and A) do not hate men, or B) supporting rights of men. I come here, or go to http://womenagainstfeminism.tumblr.com/ Sorry but if Feminists wish to clean there name they must call out women like Valenti who not only hate men but she glorificate it.
[–]CoffeeQuaffer -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
I agree with you. I think that the ideology that feminism represents is damaged beyond all hope of repair. Analogous to how people shouldn't try to reform Nazism, but abandon it and move over to something cleaner.
In my previous comment, I was only talking about a line of reasoning.
[–]copenhannah 8 points9 points10 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
When Patricia Arquette spoke at the Oscars about equal pay between men and women in the US, a load of feminists attacked what she said by saying she had completely disregarded fundamental aspects of feminism and intersectionality. She had mentioned nothing about women of colour, or trans-women etc. and this made me so mad. A well-known actress makes a statement about equal pay in the country she is located in, and a large group of feminists condemn her for not mentioning every single aspect of worldwide feminism? I think it's disgusting how women who claim to be feminists try and add hierarchy to the movement. They are "better" feminists because they include all women and whenever anybody doesn't acknowledge this, then it is a negative commentary on feminism? NO!!! The sentiment she held was genuine - she was talking about a specific sub-section of feminism and didn't claim to be speaking on behalf of every woman ever. She was speaking from a position she knew something about - pay laws in her own country. SH wasn't talking about Ugandan FGM policies so it wouldn't have made sense to comment upon it.
[–]a4187021 10 points11 points12 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
She was speaking from a position she knew something about - pay laws in her own country.
While I totally agree with your overall point, I just want to add that the gender wage gap, as most people understand it, is based on a misinterpretation of the numbers. The statistic which states that women earn 77ct for every dollar a man makes is based on the overall average wages and it doesn't factor in career choices. It's simply not true that women get payed 23% less for the same work.
I'm all for equality and against discrimination of women. You can't solve anything if you base your assumptions on false facts, though. That just makes it harder to see where the real problems lie, and what could be done to deal with them.
[–]AkaviriDragon 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link
I agree with you. I think that the ideology that feminism represents is damaged beyond all hope of repair. Analogous
Groups are made up by individuals but when a group sistematically does wrong it MUST apologize, shun those who have done the damage, and distinguish themselves from those who did it, or it will lose credibility. When we see feminists constantly harassing/doxxing/threatening women who dont agree with them, silencing men's right conferences, lying about gender pay, wanting shorter sentances for women, etc, and they do so in large numbers, they CANNOT be excused with a "we're not all like that". Yes, NAFALT, but the majority is! And if not the majority then we can both agree its enough to fucking matter!
And in this, the mystical wonder-feminists who should be shunning these man-hating cunts at the same rate that they spew out hatred have stayed nearly dead quiet.
[–]CoffeeQuaffer -5 points-4 points-3 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
I don't share your views at all. I will never apologize for someone else's actions, no matter what group I associate myself with or am presumed to be associated with. Did you also buy the feminists' #YesAllWomen response?
[–]AkaviriDragon 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I suppose to an extent apologizing could apply to supporting the growth of a movement that then performs wrongdoings, not unlike creating a monster, but to be honest I'm not of that opinion after all. Apologizing only applies if you commited a mistake or were responsible for a mistake. If someone else in your movement does a mistake its their wrongdoing, you only need to Denounce&Distinguish, which would be a good step for good feminists to take.
But for the rest I said, I stand my ground.
To give an example, If men's rights started hoisting a bash-a-bitch day unironically I would denounce it. I wouldn't apologize for it as it was not my fault per se even if i'm part of the movement. If the men's rights started advocating for this 50/50 or more, I'm pretty sure i'd denounce it and distinguish myself from the movement some way, probably using a different name like how christina sommers uses "equity feminism" to distinguish herself. Otherwise the wrongdoings are going to keep happening with the group's name on them.
[–]geekygirl23 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
You showed us!
[–]AkaviriDragon 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Lol, he nitpicked what I said, bloody shame but common when you dont want to adress what someone says.
What's happening in here anyways? Why are we getting invaded by feminists?
So you're equating a birth group with a political groups as to representation?
Seriously you need to think that through. If someone says "I am of political belief X" then it's perfectly reasonable to think that X represents them. if someone was just born X, then it isn't reasonable to think they are just like any other X.
Can you not see that?
[–]Emergencyegret 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
exactly. "not all men" is the same response the other side has.
[–]asifnot 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I think she might have meant "I'm sorry that has happened to you at the hands of people calling themselves feminists" rather than "I'm sorry on behalf of all feminists"
When they say "We're not all like that," it's like saying "We're ok with what they did, but we don't really want their jackassery to make us look bad in the process."
[–]memorableZebra 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
While I agree with your statement, I think you're glossing over underlying point being made which is: "We're not all like that" is typically used an invoke a No-True-Scotsman argument to excuse any behavior or position pushed by the largest feminist (or really any single-sided "equal rights" group) organizations.
If someone wants to argue against the mainstream position of a political movement, if someone wants to argue that a political movement actually doesn't represent what an individual says it does (in this case arguing that feminism isn't about equal rights, but instead is single-mindedly focused on advancing the position of women and women alone), using examples from the biggest voices and organizations representing that movement should not be met with the response "We're not all like that".
It's common for people (feminists and MRAs included) to say that they support equal rights. Meanwhile they only support organizations that favor one party. They then excuse their support for those organizations by saying those organizations' single-sided support of one party is just an "aberration" and that "not all of us are so one-sided".
Literally, you are correct. And if one is defending a race or gender from wide sweeping discriminatory remarks, I would defend its use. But in the context of this image, it's specifically in reference to individuals who attempt to excuse themselves from taking responsibility for the wide-ranging discrimination of the party they identify with.
[+]chaospherezero -10 points-9 points-8 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
Nice straw man. I don't know any feminists who think all men are rapists, murderers, pedophiles, etc. Most feminists have fathers, brothers, male friends, etc.
Maybe you shouldn't base your knowledge of feminism on TumblrInAction.
[–]CoffeeQuaffer 6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
It's not my fault you have been living under a rock and missed out on all the "teach men not to rape" drama.
[–][deleted] 189 points190 points191 points 11 years ago (71 children) | Copy Link
How did "Feminism" call her anything? Particular people who claim to represent that philosophy might have said nasty things, but to claim the entire dogma is speaking to her is pretty dumb. I'm all for calling out over the top pc bs, but this whole post is nonsense. Are you all just so eager to circle jerk that you don't use logic when someone is on your side?
[–]Slyndrr 68 points69 points70 points 11 years ago (32 children) | Copy Link
Saw this from /r/all and wondered what the hell this has to do with men's rights.
[–]AkaviriDragon 16 points17 points18 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
Feminism is the greatest adversary of men's rights. They constantly silence our conferences and make us look bad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO_X4DkwA_Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvYyGTmcP80 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iARHCxAMAO0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OFy0HMxsn4I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CRWff4gCwTw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOnuZsXRwTA
[–]Slyndrr 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
When even mainstream reddit (well known for being fairly anti-feminist) thinks you're being too harsh on feminism, maybe it's time to re-think things?
Maybe the reason it doesn't feel "safe" is because it's actually becoming hatred? Look at this post. It has absolutely nothing to do with what should be the agenda for a men's rights group.
Do you think getting branded as a hate movement helps getting MRA into universities and general gender discussions? If you want to bring something to those academic discussions you need something besides "feminism sucks!".
I'm sorry but it's not feminism doing this to the movement. It's the movement doing it to itself by allowing criticism become extremism without trying the least bit to remove internal hateful elements and by refusing internal or external criticism.
[–]AkaviriDragon 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Who said its mainstream reddit? I'm yet to see proof of that. It doesn't get frontpage on r/all and stay there without most people being ok or agreeing with it.
And well, we're picking fun at a hate movement disguised under tons of propaganda. Stuff like that should be criticized and satirized. And quite frankly we don't make fun of them any more than they make fools out of themselves. Yes, i've criticized this kind of posting before, but if you seriously think this is all the men's rights group does, then you need to go to the sub before judging a book by its cover. There's a whole subsection for action oportunities that's not just picking fun of feminism.
[–]Slyndrr 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
This comment and the similar comments were upvoted when this post hit /r/all, that's how I found it. Now that it's again out of mainstream view, the downvotes are trickling in.
Calling feminism a "hate movement" is just absurd. Yes there are individuals who are hateful, scornful assholes and still call themselves feminists. They are far from mainstream. Take a look at the feminist subreddits and compare the headlines with this one. Try to sort out what is hateful and what is not. Take a look in some other heavily feminist subs, such as trollx. Is the discourse there hateful? What views are being downvoted? Why is the hatred and disdain and high pitched voices so much more accepted here than there?
Even pure hate subreddits based on racism, nazism or violence will sometimes have some not-too-offensive material and constructive dicscourse. That doesn't stop them for being central places for hatred. That this subreddit has two (!) articles actually discussing on a more sane level does not stop it from being mainly concerned with feminism or blaming women in general.
This subreddit right here is the biggest gathering of MRA I have found. If you have a bigger site or subreddit that better reflects the mainstream of the movement, and redeems it then please do show it to me.
Its tagged properly under Feminism at least. But I agree that this shouldn't be the focus of our sub.
[–]Electroverted 9 points10 points11 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Probably that part about men not having to carry guilt on their shoulders, but I guess your tunnel vision is pretty narrow?
[–]YT4LYFE 39 points40 points41 points 11 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link
This post is this subreddit in a nutshell.
[–]Slyndrr 13 points14 points15 points 11 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
Yeah, I just took a look at the other headlines.. wtf. This is just a feminism bashing circlejerk. Too bad, the topic should deserve better than that.
[–]BlueDoorFour 9 points10 points11 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
While I agree that this post in particular is mostly a circle-jerk, there is a discussion in this sub about how Feminism itself is a men's rights issue. When the dominant voice on gender politics informs policies that deny and/or exacerbate men's issues... it becomes our concern. There's enough in the FAQ and in the top posts so I won't explain it all here.
Yes, a lot of this sub is venting about it. There aren't many places where it's safe to do so. Personally, I would prefer that these kinds of posts go to r/mensrants and that this sub be reserved for more substantial conversation, but this is the more visible sub and these posts are popular.
[–]AkaviriDragon -5 points-4 points-3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Lol. Feminists trying to make us look bad. Nice try, asshole.
[+]Mehiximos -7 points-6 points-5 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
It used to be, then the war with SRS happened
[+][deleted] -8 points-7 points-6 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
No. A bunch of angsty assholes turned this sub into a hate sub. Its no longer about equal rights its about "our gender is better than your gender"
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
But isn't that the point of subreddits? They didn't set this place up to debate people on the other spectrum. They come here to discuss issues with people who view the same ideas in the same light. I don't understand where they could go to be "circlejerky" if this isn't the place.
[–]YT4LYFE 12 points13 points14 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
The point is that MensRights isn't quite the same thing as FuckFeminism.
[–][deleted] -5 points-4 points-3 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Sure it is. If I made a sub reddit for the Green Bay Packers, you better believe "Fuck the Bears" would be all over the place.
[–]YT4LYFE 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
That's a terrible comparison. Friendly shit talking between 2 rival sports teams is not even close to the same thing as 2 social movements, that on the surface do not have opposing ideals and actually have similar end goals, constantly trying to discredit each other. This was never supposed to be a competition or a rivalry.
Do you not understand how a subreddit of a social movement that claims to "promote honest discourse in regards to male issues - including but not limited to custody, alimony, reproductive health and rights, and education" turning into a giant circlejerk of strawman arguments regarding women and feminism, that do nothing to promote their agenda would be a bad thing?
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Lmao, reread your second paragraph. The problem is you think these subreddits are filled with active people that aregoing to do anything about it. This is reddit man, people who are serious about taking action aren't spending their time on these subs. Shits a joke and full of people who just want an outlet to bitch about the other side and feel wanted or "belonged" for the first time in their lives. Nothing comes out of these subs except bitterness. Plus the larger they become the more diluted the content is. These people will spend a few years complaining and making memes but that's all.
[–]YT4LYFE -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
you think these subreddits are filled with active people that are going to do anything about it.
I do not.
Shits a joke and full of people who just want an outlet to bitch about the other side and feel wanted or "belonged" for the first time in their lives. Nothing comes out of these subs except bitterness. Plus the larger they become the more diluted the content is. These people will spend a few years complaining and making memes but that's all.
I mean yea that's mostly true, but the FAQ reads otherwise, and that's part of my point. There is some quality content on here. It's not ALL circlejerking. I'm just saying that for the people that are actually trying to make a difference (and they DO exist), it would be a good idea to moderate this sub a little better.
[–]AkaviriDragon 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Well yeah but they have to say that, how else are these feminists invading us going to make us look bad?...
[–]Slyndrr -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Continue the discussion somewhere else. It surely needs to be held, as a feminist I do admit very willingly that there are many topics that feminism can't or won't deal with for men or boys although there clearly are overlaps.
[–]waawftutki 28 points29 points30 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Coming in from /r/all to say this. I knew this subreddit was pretty circlejerk-y, but this is just nonsense. You could find an asshole in every single movement/religion/etc., and make a little provocative paper about it, to take a selfie with.
[–]Castigale 9 points10 points11 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I used to feel that way too, but the rabbit hole goes much much deeper.
You're not required to take an interest, but if you do, you'll find the problem is much larger than just a few assholes.
[–]ckiemnstr345 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Once you are deep enough the rage sets in and you have to tell everyone how history and feminism really are and they look at you funny. After awhile you cool off and are reasonable and don't go out of your way to try and show people what the true history of feminism is and only show the people that want to truly know.
[–]thelotusknyte 7 points8 points9 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I think you're harping on her poor word choice instead what she's trying to say. Would you find it hard to believe that more than one, or even many feminists treated her that way?
I've come across feminists who are how she's describing in my every day life without looking for them. I've only met a few who are like Big Red, but I'm not surprised at all at her experience. Many feminists that I know (I live in Boulder, so I know a lot of them) would consider her a traitor. The kinds of threats she claims she's had are perfectly in line with 3rd wave fundamentalist feminism, which takes its methodological cues from socialist anarchists, or maybe it's the other way around, either way, it's not outside possibility that what she says is true.
Its enough feminists pulling this shit and enough people willing to prove it that it raises a legitimate concern for the credibility of the feminist movement.
When you encounter that kind of attitude again and again and again from all kinds of feminists...it starts to seem reasonable to say that "feminism" did this to you. After all, what is feminism, but a movement made up of individual people?
[+]Momochichi -10 points-9 points-8 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Uhh, this is a Men's Rights group. All they do here is circlejerk.
[–][deleted] 18 points19 points20 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
The crux of the matter is that (some) feminists believe that mens opinions do matter less, precisely because they are men. If a man is against feminism it's because he is sexist (in the eyes of a feminist). But if a woman is against feminism, it's not so easy to write off as sexism. So yes, sometimes a woman denouncing feminism has more weight than a man denouncing it.
Just my two cents.
[+][deleted] 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
[–][deleted] 24 points25 points26 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
I'm not saying people who call themselves feminists and are mean to people online aren't true feminists, I'm just saying lots of different types of people with different opinions call themselves feminists, and saying an entire school of thought is hateful or invalid because some 12 year old told you to kill yourself online is a dumb way to think. In rhetorical terms I would call it overgeneralization. Ex: A black person stole my car. Therefore, all black people are thieves.
[+]ndstumme -11 points-10 points-9 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I understand what you're saying, and it's great and all in a perfect world.
But if you're implying that the woman in the OP shouldn't have made that image, then Men's Rights is going to lose the battle for puplic opinion.
[–][deleted] 7 points8 points9 points 11 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
OP can make whatever she wants. I just think it is strange so many people are celebrating what seems like a stupid statement. Almost any topic I can imagine discussing online (mac vs pc, atheism vs belief) is going to include some butthurt agro people telling other people to kill themselves and the like. That's just the unfortunate cost of anonymous interactions with strangers. Really, nothing in the image has any validity at all for me (just all personal circumstances) other than when she talks about male self hate. As the father of a young boy, I do think in the US school system certain more stereotypically male behaviors are unduly frowned upon in a problematic way. I am not a developmental expert, but little boys seem to like to run around, be physical, and play fight. This has gotten tons of kids I know into trouble, even calling for things like therapy from the teachers, when it seems like pretty basic behavior we just don't tolerate.
If instead of the language of victimization she uses throughout, she focused on that aspect of her experience and discussed what in particular she was facing (what was being taught that caused the boys to feel self hate), I would understand this having some value, but since it is just the same kind of nonsense, decontextualized victim speak people usually attack various feminists for engaging in. As is, I just don't get the upvotes.
[–]Drizu 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Fallacy fallacy.
[+][deleted] -11 points-10 points-9 points 11 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
Particular people who claim to represent that philosophy
So what is a feminist?
[–][deleted] 15 points16 points17 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
Why are you asking me? I'm the one saying broad labels are dumb. In context it might make sense (person A claiming such and such identifies themselves as a feminist due to that argument), but in the abstract it is a meaningless label.
[+][deleted] -10 points-9 points-8 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
that argument could be applied to most things. so either we label nearly nothing, or we label them as they identify themselves.
[–][deleted] 12 points13 points14 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
There is no they. That's my point. There isn't a unified feminist conspiracy of people with the exact same ideas. There are various people out there who for various reasons use that label. Each individual should be held accountable for their actions. If there is an idea you don't like, then point out the idea, not the label that it is tagged to.
[–][deleted] -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I actually agree with you. People labelling themselves by ideologies / political beliefs etc is silly to me. My point is that if someone labels themselves, when you refer to them you can use their label.
In this case it's implied that is a number of people. I'm assuming that they identified themselves as feminists (i could be wrong), but if they did, and if she didn't call them feminists, what should she call them. Surely she can't be expected to identify them individually
[–][deleted] 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I don't know, the comments seem to be full of people focused on feminism generally, not whatever particular assholes harassed this lady. Plus, the title of the post is Just Feminism. I really don't think people are viewing this as localized issue. I get that there are a bunch of idiots out there doing awful shit and calling themselves feminists. In my experience, that is true for every social issue out there. There are some smart people working hard to make the situation better, and tons of other people yelling and screaming about the issues in the most reductive way possible, usually because they are mad about something entirely different in their lives.
[–][deleted] -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Yep. Good people drowned out by banner waving idiots with megaphones. To be clear, my original question: What is a feminist? Anyone who wants to be. Feminism is and ideology, feminist is a voluntary label
[–]heyboyhey 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Well traditionally it is someone who wants equal opportunity for women, but lately it seems people only mean man haters.
[+]comrade-jim -6 points-5 points-4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I think it's satire.
Theres another movement called "why I need feminism" or something.
But yeah if you've never been harrassed by an internet feminist you haven't been on the internet very long.
[–]Old_Army90 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I don't have anything intelligent to contribute, just that I spent a good amount of time straining to read what was on her sheet only to realize after that the exact same text was written on the right.
[–]Dr_Bishop 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
You're preaching to the choir, but still...
[–][deleted] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I used to follow this girl on twitter before feminists bullied her off. She wrote sexual fantasy books but her livelihood was threatened by rad fems when they got amazon to pull her books.
Links!
[–][deleted] 8 points9 points10 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Feminism in 2015 is a complete joke. It's literally just turned into a war on men and any woman who disagrees with there beliefs. Have a woman stay at home to take care of her children and her home, feminists call her an oppressed woman who's being treated horribly by her misogynistic piece of shit husband. But tell her to work at a daycare where she can watch other people's kids, it makes her a strong independent female who is there definition of why women need feminists. It seems like women who are extreme feminists are scared that if they don't take a stand and try to replace men all together, they will somehow become useless. But as the only sex who can give birth to children, no matter what a woman's job is, or how much she gets paid, women will always be useful to men and to the world. So feminists that are hardcore need to just sit back, and relax a little bit.
[–]Bortasz[S] 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
They are Religion. With Dogma, cannon, high priests. Listen and Believe.
[–]GrilBTW 21 points22 points23 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Online pictures of people holding text become super credible when they confirm my bias.
[–]vasheenomed 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
I have so many friends who their argument has always been "well we have been opressed for centuries, it's fine for us to get treated better now since girls have been 2nd class for so long"
it makes me angry :/ I'm a guy and I believe that the past is behind us. I treat girls just like I treat guys, and for some reason that isn't good enough for some girls
I REALLY get upset though when people say "you don't know what it is like, you're a white male".... wtf? I'm also autistic, and I don't go around all day talking about how I deserve special treatment and benefits because I hear people making fun of autistic people all the time
idk.... the last few years I've felt like I'm sexist, I try my best to think of equality and such, and not to be biased by gender or race, but with how some people talk to me I can't help feeling like I'm oppressing women somehow XD
[–]DavidByron2 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
It's hate movement logic. Jews killed Christ so therefore all Jews are murderers. That's why it "makes sense" to these people that an imagined crime from centuries ago should deserve completely different people being punished.
With feminism it makes even less sense than usual because everyone has 50% ancestors who were women and 50% men.
Basically it's feminism saying men are inherently evil, and therefore must be attacked.
[–]Bortasz[S] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I call this Equality in Time. I was oppressing you for 10 years, so now you can oppress me for 10 years... Sadly this will not get us any closer to balance situation.
You're probably going through college which is liberal hell and feminism is a fad there. It's bullying in disguise in a place that's virtually jail.
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It's so weird to me when people on reddit sit and make fun of their reflection.
[–]HydrogenxPi 10 points11 points12 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Bizzaro Big Red
[–]RadioHigher 9 points10 points11 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
"I'm reading, fuckface!"
[–]konoplya 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
shut the fuck up
[–]IcyTy 0 points1 point2 points 10 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I'm trying to understand the timeline here
9 April 2013 Dan Perrins http://www.avoiceformen.com/education/little-red-frothing-fornication-mouth/
23 April 2013 Danielle Paradis (coincidence initials?) and Anne Theriault http://rabble.ca/blogs/bloggers/feminist-current/2013/04/mens-rights-activists-advocate-human-rights-rape-and-death-t
This mentions:
This woman, who has been re-christened “Little Red Frothing Fornication Mouth” (so charming!) by A Voice for Men
So assuming that it was Dan Perrins on April 9 who christened her LRFFM, if this was a "re" christening then the name "Big Red" must've been the original nickname, introduced at an earlier date.
Only thing is, I am not sure who first came up with the idea of calling her BR or when/where it was done. Anyone know?
I think LRFFM is better because 'big red' is already in use for all sorts of things, like for example, WWE Superstar Erick Rowen: http://www.wwe.com/videos/erick-rowan-vs-luke-harper-raw-january-5-2015-26987254
Erick is bigger so he deserves the moniker! Plus http://www.pwinsider.com/article/89930/lots-of-wwe-news-and-notes.html?p=1 indicates that WWE registered the trademark.
Minus the self-entitlement, bigotry and physical assault?
[–]AkaviriDragon 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link
Can someone tell me why exactly the comment section is getting invaded? This has been going on in other posts also. OP, you know anything?
[–]Rezda 6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link
Made the front page so all the people who "don't care" about this movement suddenly feel the need to post about how much they don't care rather than refute any points made on the sub or this post lol. Basically everyone is crying
[–]AkaviriDragon 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
lol! but do you know if we're defaulted, or are these people who are subbed to men's rights just to hate us?
[–]Rezda 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
lol idk but it would make me laugh more if we had that many people who subbed just to hate u then pretended to not care what is posted
[–]AkaviriDragon 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
aw nope, just confirmed, we got defaulted.
http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/30cgxn/just_feminism/cprc5va
so now the feminists are trying their best to make us look bad.
[–]Rezda 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
lol just look at the things they are saying. Not one single real refutation just a bunch of "No not all of us are like that!" reminds me of when you criticize a religion and you get the same answers. All I can say is "Well we are not talking about YOU then we are talking about the people who hold the idea or act in that manner". Maybe they can go to the no clapping, puppy filled, safe place since they are getting anxious now lol
[–]AkaviriDragon 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
"NAFALT", Yeah no shit! Of course not all are like that, but its enough to fucking matter! But the difference is that if someone comes into men's rights and does something like "Female Tears" or "kill all females" they'd get denounced, men's rights would say this is not their stance, and if half or more of the men's rights movement turned into that then the good men's rights advocates would separate and make their own movement. Denounce&Distinguish. Yet when a feminist does it almost nobody in the feminist movement says anything! And they don't destinguish themselves from the crazy people in their movement either! They all lie about wage gap and shit like that. Only christina hoff summer separates by calling herself equity feminist. Why is that? I'm starting to think NAFALT is just the public excuse they use to avoid looking bad!
[–]Rezda 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Of course it is, if it was not they would say "Ya we are ashamed of people like that" The same way we do when a real douche bag pretends to understand and advocate for this movement. Jokes on them, a post doesn't get 2k upvotes and hit the front page without it ringing true to people.
[+][deleted] 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
I think if we are being honest here, post-modern feminism is a big deal for mensrights. The laws that affect us the hardest are usually pushed by pro-feminists groups, and our biggest critics are almost always feminists. Given things like "Male tears" it sounds to me like this has everything to do with /r/mensrights
[–]Bortasz[S] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
My highest score link. Get in to all front page so we have literally EVERYBODY trying to write there two sentence. It is overwhelming to be hones. I have more than 50 comment to read through.
[–]AkaviriDragon 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Its because we made it to /r/all, this got the attention of SRS and we got brigaded. http://i.imgur.com/XZnhJDU.png (its the last comment, it seems she deleted it but it doesn't show on her history?)
[–]Holyhitman173 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I'm sorry that I may be blind to this but not once have I seen a sign of women being discriminated or anything.
[–]JeebusChrist 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
"The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."
-Friedrich Nietzsche
Usually quoted by enlightened fedora-tipping neckbeards lashing out against their "religious oppresshun," I think this quote is highly applicable, and it somewhat explains the echo-chamber SJW circlejerk on Tumblr these days.
[–]jellybean2010 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
All of this. My only experience with feminism.
Verbally? You was lucky. Some of them think they can attack you Physicly, and many time this is without repercussion.
Yep. remember big red, and also the meninist prank?
"Mocking others that who think differently."
[–]DevilishRogue 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Wow, I feel really bad for the person who experienced that. Hope she is doing okay now.
[–]buboniccronic 7 points8 points9 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
I've literally never met a feminist like this outside of tumbler. Most people who say they are just strive for equality and the fact that reddit hates on them so much is ignorant.
[–]Bortasz[S] 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Maybe if you organize does good feminists so they start calling out Bullshit, and stop tolerating Men hating, people actually start agreeing with you,
[–]DavidByron2 7 points8 points9 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
This subreddit is full of examples of high profile feminists pulling shit like that.
[–]AkaviriDragon 11 points12 points13 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Well, i've literally never met a feminist that isn't like this so I guess we're at an impasse.
[–]DarkLordKindle 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Regardless on what the message is. I am really glad someone translated it to plain text. Too many times I can't read the hand weiting
[–]Actionbuilding 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
A good portion of that description can be applied to all organized religion, too.
[–]sunshinetime2 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
A-fucking-men
[–]redroom101 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
Friend: " if I fight for equal pay for woman, does that make me a feminism? Cause I want them to get paid the same as man, but Im scared people will think im a feminist"
Me: hit head on wall
[–]AkaviriDragon 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Well, even if it ignores the fact the gender pay gap is a myth, its a legitimate concern, he doesnt want to look like an idiot.
[–]DavidByron2 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
It's like saying "I want to stop the Jews running all the banks, but I don't want people to think I'm a white supremacist."
Too late.
Supporting hate speech and anti-male conspiracy theories? yeah people will think you're a feminist OK.
[–]KosmiCate 8 points9 points10 points 11 years ago (25 children) | Copy Link
This is just so wrong... Why do we call those people feminists?? People like her are feminists, not those hypocrites.
[–]pirarchy 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The same could be said for many groups among many movements. There will be misinterpretations. There will be extremists.
We are allowing the views of both misandrists and misogynists to drive a wedge between humanity. I just want to promote equality without being called a militant bitch, and I want men to do the same without being called patriarchal pigs. World keeps spinning, I guess.
[–]SilencingNarrative 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago* (10 children) | Copy Link
The people who say they believe in equality and call themselves feminists still believe in the idea that men as a group took advantage / enslaved women as a group for the bulk of history. In other words, they believe that men are morally inferior to women.
You can't believe in equality and supremacy at the same time.
[–]Doom721 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Trying to make the current generation of people pay for the mistakes or misdoings of the generations before them is just unfair and silly.
Its so clear if you just treat people equally, and realize they have different needs based on gender.
[–]KosmiCate -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
That's an interesting point of view. I for myself think that men and women are very different in thinking and acting, and that's what caused and is still causing the disadvantages BOTH sexes have or had. But my point is that hating on each other will only increase the gap... I'm for equal rights (that means the harsh opinions that people on both sides have must change). Not equality, because we just are so different, and that's a good thing.
[–]SilencingNarrative 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Do you ever find yourself speaking of the patriarchy?
[+][deleted] 11 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link
[–]autowikibot 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Feminism:
Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies that share a common goal: to define, establish, and achieve equal political, economic, cultural, personal, and social rights for women. This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment. A feminist advocates or supports the rights and equality of women. Feminist movements have campaigned and continue to campaign for women's rights, including the right to vote, to hold public office, to work, to fair wages or equal pay, to own property, to education, to enter contracts, to have equal rights within marriage, and to have maternity leave. Feminists have also worked to promote bodily autonomy and integrity, and to protect women and girls from rape, sexual harassment, and domestic violence. Feminist campaigns are generally considered to be the main force behind major historical societal changes, particularly in the West, where they are near-universally credited with having achieved women's suffrage, gender neutrality in English, equal pay for women, reproductive rights for women (including access to contraceptives and abortion), and the right to enter into contracts and own property. Although feminist advocacy is and has been mainly focused on women's rights, some feminists, including bell hooks, argue for the inclusion of men's liberation within its aims because men are also harmed by traditional gender roles. Feminist theory, which emerged from feminist movements, aims to understand the nature of gender inequality by examining women's social roles and lived experience; it has developed theories in a variety of disciplines in order to respond to issues such as the social construction of sex and gender. Some forms of feminism have been criticized for taking into account only white, middle-class, educated perspectives. This led to the creation of ethnically specific or multiculturalist forms of feminism. Image i - International Women's Day rally in Dhaka, Bangladesh on 8 March 2005, organized by the National Women Workers Trade Union Centre
Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies that share a common goal: to define, establish, and achieve equal political, economic, cultural, personal, and social rights for women. This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment. A feminist advocates or supports the rights and equality of women.
Feminist movements have campaigned and continue to campaign for women's rights, including the right to vote, to hold public office, to work, to fair wages or equal pay, to own property, to education, to enter contracts, to have equal rights within marriage, and to have maternity leave. Feminists have also worked to promote bodily autonomy and integrity, and to protect women and girls from rape, sexual harassment, and domestic violence.
Feminist campaigns are generally considered to be the main force behind major historical societal changes, particularly in the West, where they are near-universally credited with having achieved women's suffrage, gender neutrality in English, equal pay for women, reproductive rights for women (including access to contraceptives and abortion), and the right to enter into contracts and own property. Although feminist advocacy is and has been mainly focused on women's rights, some feminists, including bell hooks, argue for the inclusion of men's liberation within its aims because men are also harmed by traditional gender roles.
Feminist theory, which emerged from feminist movements, aims to understand the nature of gender inequality by examining women's social roles and lived experience; it has developed theories in a variety of disciplines in order to respond to issues such as the social construction of sex and gender. Some forms of feminism have been criticized for taking into account only white, middle-class, educated perspectives. This led to the creation of ethnically specific or multiculturalist forms of feminism.
Image i - International Women's Day rally in Dhaka, Bangladesh on 8 March 2005, organized by the National Women Workers Trade Union Centre
Interesting: Amazon feminism | Postcolonial feminism | Lipstick feminism | Index of feminism articles
[+]Bortasz[S] -22 points-21 points-20 points 11 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
Can you read? She is not a Feminists. And she write why. One of bigger problem with Feminists is that they label everything good as Feminists, and everything bad as not feminists. Sorry but no. You will own you shit.
[–]drukqsx 8 points9 points10 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
You just did exactly what youre saying feminists do. If they like it, its feminism. If they dont, its not. This woman is a real feminist who wants equality, not female advancement.
[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (30 children) | Copy Link
Funny. When I disagreed with /r/mensrights, I got called fat, ugly, brainwashed and stupid too.
[–]WaynesCotting 29 points30 points31 points 11 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link
Where?
The only thing I see in your entire user history (your account is four days old) is this:
https://np.reddit.com/r/SubredditDrama/comments/304jht/can_your_pussypass_get_denied_if_youre_a_14_year/cpppa65?context=3
And all I saw is you discounting a person's opinion about circumcision being a problem because, among other things, "it isn't talked about outside of the manosphere". Despite the fact that he was telling you, having experienced it, that he had the opinion that it was a big issue. Seemed pretty dismissive and like you had a preconceived notion you were upset that you had to question.
After you wrote a long post with lots of points he'd probably want to respond to, you concluded by saying that you wouldn't even listen to what he had to say from that point on. Why? Because he discussed a topic you didn't like:
This is such a typical, thoughtless /r/mensrights argument. Bringing up the draft of all things. Jesus Christ. Respond if you want, I'm not going to read it. You've managed to piss me off, though. I hope you're able to enjoy whatever satisfaction it brings you.
[–]AkaviriDragon 10 points11 points12 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
Well, I say that never happened. We're at an impasse unless you show some proof of it.
[–]NegativeGPA 12 points13 points14 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
And now you learn the true secret: groups lose intelligence after they reach a certain size. Genius tends to work better in very small circles. Admire people, not groups
[–]fuckfeminister 11 points12 points13 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
This thread sure got brigaded. Sure you did.
[–]Curious_Swede 9 points10 points11 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Yeah. I havn't visited /r/MensRights for a while but I can tell that this whole subreddit has been brigaded as usual.
[–]AkaviriDragon 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Oh shit, quick, pose and greet.
Hi, SRS and feminism. Greeetings from men's rights!
[–]tenelka3001 -3 points-2 points-1 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I haven't gotten called those specific names, but typically if i say anything i get down voted like crazy. At this current moment i take people in r/mensrights about as seriously as I take most feminists. I keep coming around because I'm a masochist, I guess, and keep hoping that maybe I'll see a little less hate and a little more common sense. Today is the first time in a while that I've seen that. Maybe there is some hope yet.
[–]MrDeanings 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
Almost every instance of feminism I have encountered has been directly sexist towards men.
Even the term Feminism is sexist. It suggests difference, and therefore inequality.
We should re-name it - Equalism :)
[–]WaynesCotting 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The actual word for this is egalitarianism. There's a subreddit for it /r/egalitarianism
Their stated purpose is to not value one group over the either (feminism vs. mensrights).
Sidebar:
Egalitarianism (from French égal, meaning "equal") is a belief of thought that favors equality of some sort. Its general premise is that people should be treated as equals on certain dimensions such as race, gender, religion, ethnicity, political affiliation, economic status, social status, and cultural heritage. Egalitarian doctrines maintain that all humans are equal in fundamental worth or social status. Even /r/MensRights and /r/Feminism. All thoughts and dogmas are welcome here. We ask you remain respectful and simply treat others how you wish to be treated. You may disagree, but that doesn't mean you need to attack the author while attacking the argument.
Egalitarianism (from French égal, meaning "equal") is a belief of thought that favors equality of some sort. Its general premise is that people should be treated as equals on certain dimensions such as race, gender, religion, ethnicity, political affiliation, economic status, social status, and cultural heritage.
Egalitarian doctrines maintain that all humans are equal in fundamental worth or social status. Even /r/MensRights and /r/Feminism.
All thoughts and dogmas are welcome here. We ask you remain respectful and simply treat others how you wish to be treated. You may disagree, but that doesn't mean you need to attack the author while attacking the argument.
[–]jonnytechno 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I completely agree, most situations where something is rebraned are a means of shortchanging you, if the aim was equality at the beginning it should have been named as such, by rebranding as feminism there's confusion from both the outside & within as well as the overriding fact that the main goal isn't being achieved
Feminism has done a pitiful amount for men that isn't negative, it needs to be recognised for what it is & as mentioned, should be replaced with egalitarianism
[–]MrDeanings -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Good word ! I had to look it up.
Comes from the French for equal , ègal.
Saves anybody else looking it up :)
[–]CopyX -3 points-2 points-1 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Funny how equalists only care about how feminists name themselves and never equal rights for women.
[–]MrDeanings 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
If this is directed at me, my comment in no way suggests I am not supportive of equal rights .
The term "Equal rights for women" almost encompasses the entire issue . Just "Equal rights" will suffice. Surely any other term is "one sided" (for want of not using the term sexist again)
I could spin this the other way . Would I have equal rights in a child custody battle ? If all other criteria are identical , job , income , home, lifestyle? I'm unsure but I presume the balance would tip to the mothers side .
What I find funny is how "feminists" only seem to fight in corners that improve the rights of women. Equal means equal. It was never my intention to offend anybody . This is just what I have experienced.
[–]fuckfeminister 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Funny how feminists care so deeply about the label that they refuse to reject it, despite it's history of decades of man-hating and spreading propaganda.
Sounds like feminists only care about rights for women.
Clearly this is a sock puppet.
[–]Zankman 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
So now all feminists are evil and delusional?
Thinking like this won't get anyone anywhere positive...
[–]AkaviriDragon 9 points10 points11 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
I don't see any feminists denouncing this bullshit and the movement is so twisted that at this point the few remaining sane feminists should be destinguishing themselves under a different banner, however I have yet to see any doing so.
Actually Christina Summers identifies herself as an equity feminist, I suppose its a good place to start.
[–]DavidByron2 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link
If only someone had been around to tell everyone to not worry about the Nazis or the KKK the same way. I'm sure that would have worked out much more "positive" for everyone.
I know Christina Hoff Summers... Do you know another main stream feminists that is calling out Bullshit?
[–]velrick 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
We seem to have hit that unfortunate state that happens all too often these days; the good thing has been poisoned by hateful people.
The normal approach is a re-branding and an attempt to leave those "bad apples" behind. That's not exactly worked excellently in the past, however.
If you can find better solution give me a call. I'm all for this.
[–]velrick 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Solutions are always difficult, but i'll give it a try.
Firstly, I think the "re-brand" makes sense in this case. (since it isn't a twitter hash tag)
Perhaps it could be called something like humanism(already used for something else) or equalism.
Distill feminism down to its core concept. Women and men should have the same opportunities, rights and be treated with the same level of respect. That's it. By that definition every reasonable person would be considered a feminist.
Traditionally feminists have been female, because they as a group were disadvantaged. That type of classic feminism and activism has largely narrowed the gap, but seems to have mostly run it's course.
For this new 'equalism' group it would be important to include men, ideally 50%men. This serves a number of purposes. It brings in a broader number of perspectives; It allows the group to handle men's issues as well(admittedly fewer); It stops outsiders from stereotyping the group as easily; It makes things less adversarial(working together to forward gender equality, rather than one group versus another).
It's important, I think, to separate body image and societal sexuality from this new feminism. While those are both important issues they distract from the core issue and invite unhelpful, aggressive discourse.
This group should focus on civil discourse. Politely, but firmly point out that things are inappropriate, rather than attacking people. I feel like "that is offensive!" is thrown around too often.
That's mostly it. It's a pretty rough concept, but it seems reasonable.
[–]Blutarg 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
She's not ugly. And her handwriting is lovely.
[–]cymrich 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
this sounds so much like the radical theist attacks on atheists/gays/anyone who doesn't believe the same thing they do...
Because it is. Feminism (and Political Correctness as well, I think) has become a cult.
[+][deleted] 11 years ago* (39 children) | Copy Link
[–]DavidByron2 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Explain why feminists lobby for and pass sexist laws then.
[–]Ricwulf 25 points26 points27 points 11 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link
Difference would be who is leading who. Feminists have people like Andrea Dworkin, Sarkeesian, and Lena Dunham who are looked up to, while within their own group, feminists like Christina Hoff Summers are looked down upon by the majority of modern feminists.
I haven't seen anything resembling that in the MRM, though I will say that I am not full into everything, and just peruse every now and then, so if it does happen, that would be why I don't know about it.
[–]STARVE_THE_BEAST 17 points18 points19 points 11 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link
Let's not forget the illustrious GamerGate troika they've rallied behind as brave heroes.
There's also The Mad Queen Shandly, practically a feminist icon. Women like Big Red are not crazy outsiders. These bitches have fan clubs.
[–]STARVE_THE_BEAST 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Also all their comrades-in-arms protecting muh precious narrative at any cost and by any means necessary in the media, academia, on wikipedia, in politics, etc. They're a vicious little cult with ZERO intellectual honesty and integrity.
[–]AkaviriDragon 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Hey, you seem to know your shit. Odd question, what's with the feminist comments? Did we get defaulted, or are we getting invaded or something?
[–]Ricwulf 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Either a moderate leaning towards Feminism, a lurker in here, or someone from r/all, if I had to guess.
[–]copenhannah 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
This speaks volumes I think. I agree that the views of certain women shouldn't be representative of feminism. However, in reality, feminism (like any movement really) is guided by the media. Prominent figures carry weight in their words and WILL be representative because they have a following. If you hold any sort of influence, your views are going to be considered to align with a large portion of society. Women look up to societal figures and emulate their opinions. Whilst the few don't define the many, if those few are media heavyweights then the scales are tipped considerably.
[+]Siiimo -9 points-8 points-7 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
Does Lena Dunham suggest rape, call people fat, ugly, stupid and brainwashed, wish death on people, threaten their children etc?
There are extremists on both ends. There was a post upvoted the other day advertising a white supremacist group. To highlight the extremes on either side and claim they are representative of the majority is a straw man that's just not helpful.
[–]Ricwulf 13 points14 points15 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
So what happens when it is the extremists that are leading the group? The majority might not be like that, and might ignore it, but looking at those who are advocating and have the following to back them? Yeah, that is representative of the movement.
I agree that there are plenty of good feminists out there. I'd like to believe that it is the majority that are just silent. Doesn't change that there is a serious problem with those who are held up as leaders and idols within the group, and then CHS and others like her are shunned for daring to go against the vocal feminist circlejerk.
And if Lena isn't "bad" enough, let's go with Jessica Valenti then, and all those at Jezebel, with the staff that boast about how they have beaten their boyfriends.
[+]Siiimo -7 points-6 points-5 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Do you really think that the people who are suggesting this girl get raped and die are the feminist leaders and representative of feminist ideology? Or are they closer to those who threaten women with rape then call themselves MRAs?
[–]Ricwulf 8 points9 points10 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Are you trying to tell me that those who are sending the threats are not the result of those leaders? These leaders have made it abundantly clear to plenty of those who follow, and that is that the enemy is not a person. Attacking the enemy (not refuting or debating) is justified to them. They are either a disgusting male, or a woman with internalised misogyny who is just trying to get some attention from those disgusting males.
It becomes clear that the leaders absolutely are the problem.
I want you to read this Tumblr post about a guy who was doxxed and ended up talking to his doxxer.
Do I have a grudge against that kid? None at all. I feel sorry for all others out there that are like what she was. Those that truly have justified their actions to that point. And then like this post says, people don't call them out, no, they just say that it isn't all feminists that are like that, or that they aren't a True Feminist™.
When you ignore your own movements flaws and let them fester to that level, then it absolutely is the groups responsibility to take care of it.
[–]Hereforthefreecake 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
So you think the actions of people admired within the context of a movement is the same as words used by obscure nobodies "claiming to be MRA's"? I thought you were a class act a few weeks ago when you tried to sell me on the idea that coders are "basic IT". Now you are trying to sell me on the idea that "actions = words"? You're too damn much.
[–]ky_windage 14 points15 points16 points 11 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link
Sooo... let dismiss everything in this post and act like it never happened.
[–]ronep -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link
No, don't dismiss it, but don't claim it's a fair characterization of feminism. It's no better than when people point to the most offensive MRA's and claim that they represent the idea of Men's Rights. Both sides have demons, both sides have legitimate gripes, to demonize either side is unhelpful.
[–]Hereforthefreecake 20 points21 points22 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
To be honest, I just lurk both /r/feminism and /r/MensRights and Id say 99% of the people I talk to in the real world have no clue what the "Mens right movement" even is. I honestly don't know a single person I have mentioned this movement to that knew what I was talking about. But almost everyone I know not only knows what feminism is, but has a negative story about feminism. I think socially feminism , good and bad, reaches more people. I think a lot more people can relate to the message OP posted than can relate to "the worst of the MRA's"
[–]STARVE_THE_BEAST 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link
But are their gripes legitimate in terms of the already entitled and privileged western woman?
[–]ronep 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link
There are most definitely still legitimate gripes. Mostly with how socialization of men and women differ. There are tons of studies that show how we raise girls and boys is different, and that those differences ripple through the rest of their lives.
[–]STARVE_THE_BEAST 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link
Socialization differs because our genetic differences are amplified in culture. Trying to consciously counteract that is destructive and unnatural in that it leads to an even more out-of-balance society.
[–][deleted] 7 points8 points9 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
This has always been a problem of mine with some facets of Feminist theory in that they perceive differences in how children are raised based on gender as inherently wrong.
I don't think it is inherently wrong unless one gender is getting completely disadvantaged over another, however this clearly isn't the case so I don't see the point in trying to make the way we raise our children gender neutral.
[–]STARVE_THE_BEAST -4 points-3 points-2 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
It's perfectly natural to raise substantially different biological entities in different ways that are specifically suited for their natural roles. No different from tailoring a suit. They want you to think this analogy is dumb, but they don't understand the principle that all dualities find their reflections in all other dualities.
They want to eliminate nature and re-envision a humanity that can define its own nature at whim. But we don't have that technology, and if they run the asylum, we never will.
[–][deleted] 4 points5 points6 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I think as opposed to claiming its natural, it should be called what it is, and that is "healthy".
We live in a society with gender roles, roles that exist for a reason and shouldn't necessarily be torn apart as they are not inherently harmful. To raise a child in opposition to these roles when the child has expressed no desire to be raised as such would basically lead them to being in a bizarre form of limbo in which they may not be entirely satisfied with how they have been raised.
Basically, it would be safer to raise a boy/girl with traditional masculine/feminine themes respectively UNLESS the child expresses a desire to the contrary. Forcing the opposite on them when they don't want it just to break down gender roles would be cruel to the child.
[–]STARVE_THE_BEAST -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Yep that's exactly it.
[–]ronep 6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I mean, if you actually clicked on the study you'd see that the ability of boys and girls to self-regulate differs hugely based on the country they're raised in.
[–]Zoltrahn 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Just because other people have it worse, doesn't mean problems aren't problems. Even us privileged westerners, male or female, face difficult issues. This isn't a zero sum game.
[–]STARVE_THE_BEAST -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link
Yeah but their gripes are primarily about eliminating personal responsibility for the consequences of their actions and getting things they never earned. I don't see how those are valid.
[–]Zoltrahn 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Then lets argue against those ludicrous ideas. I'm tired of arguing over labels. Having privilege of any kind doesn't negate discrimination you face in another part of your life.
[–]STARVE_THE_BEAST -1 points0 points1 point 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
What they face in the west is not discrimination. It's social privilege mixed with the biological advantages and disadvantages of being female. Apart from that, it's the same human struggle.
[–]copenhannah 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Calling a woman entitled and privileged kindly goes against the entire concept of equality. Women shit all over other women yet then claim to be feminists fighting a cause. Feminism takes different forms and seeks different objectives. But if those different strands of feminism turn on each other (like calling Western feminism "entitled" for example) you can't really be said to be a feminist. You are seeking your own ends, not the ends of women as a whole. You have your interests as the primary focus and use feminism as a justification for having these views.
[–]RadioHigher -3 points-2 points-1 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Please stop typing.
[–]madarapt1 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Unfortunately, the whole is equal to the sum of the parts.
How many simple discussions have been completely shut down by the radfems on college campuses? Too many, and you damn well know it's true. How many men's groups shut down women only talks? These are not the 'stupid ones' these are the ones who get the most publicity for their radical acts, and as a result, have become a sort of face for feminism.
I'd even go so far as to say many mainstream feminists are completely against the idea of rational discussion of differing viewpoints, oftentimes calling into question the other sides sanity, their worth, or their intelligence. Anything that is said bounces off. Completely. What you are left with, then, is a movement that promotes victims perpetuation for the sake of its own growth, and encouragement to complete cooperation or public shaming and harassment.
Again, the whole is equal to the sum of the parts.
[–]ronep 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Your claim that feminism isn't open enough to dissent is completely different than saying "I don't need feminism because they want me to die."
[–]madarapt1 5 points6 points7 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
It sure is buddy.
[–]PatrikPatrik 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Sounds more like she doesn't need Internet rather than blame it on the pursuit of equality.
[–]Frittern 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
It seems consenting doesn't exist when it comes to being a feminist these days. Contemporary feminism is kinda like ideological rapist, stripping away peoples agency and ability to identify as they choose. When this kinda feminism decides it wants someone it simply refuse take no for an answer.
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Just enough to matter.
True
What did she want her new hairdo in the pic or something? Lol
[+][deleted] 11 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link
[–]Bortasz[S] 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
Write more. I do not understand you.
[–]Bortasz[S] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
Go to any site that is Feminists. Post anything that put men in any other light that vile monsters. See reaction.
[–]Bortasz[S] 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
O_o This will cause Feminists to first implode and than Explode. Stupid one. Smarter one will call you troll and ignore. Go with something less obvious. For example: "What do you think about fact that 80% suicides are men? Does Feminists try to help them?" or "I just speak with my male friend about equal custody of child after divorce. He was saying that feminists opposes it. Does it is true?"
I do not have tumbler.
[–]Vergil387 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
I think I'm in love....
A-Men. Love this so much. I've been disrespected by feminists FAR more than any man. In fact, I'm struggling to think of a single time that I have felt violated either in word or opportunity by a man based on my gender. Nope. Never. Sorry feminists. I won't subscribe to your ignorance.
Welcome to world build by Men who were supported by women. We call this normality.
[–]babyalpacas 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
wait how is this men's rights? this is just antifeminism... oh wait..
[–]Lauzon_ 6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link
Feminists are actively opposed to men's rights. Indeed they protest whenever men get together just to discuss issues like the boy crisis or male suicide. Why in the world do you think MRA's should NOT be hostile to feminism? (Ironically, many of the most prominent MRA's were former feminists. They realized that patriarchy theory is basically horseshit and began looking at areas where females are privileged and males disadvantaged. The rest is history).
[–]AkaviriDragon 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I don't know, maybe because they silence our conferences and then pretend to be saints, that could be it.
Maybe its because they advocate for the gender pay gap myth which has been debunked since the 80's. Maybe because they dont care about male genital mutilation or draft. I don't know, you tell me, there's so much to choose from.
[–]konoplya 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
womenagainstfeminism.tumblr.com/
[–]russbii -3 points-2 points-1 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I was appalled at this until I saw the sub. Got it.
[–]DavidByron2 12 points13 points14 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
You were appalled that a woman could hold her own opinion that disagrees with yours?
[–]adaam_93 -3 points-2 points-1 points 11 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link
The "feminism" she has encountered here is not real feminism.
There are assholes in all groups, especially in groups that have been marginalized for a long time. They become angry and bitter and can view any dissent as an attack.
But just because those assholes exist doesn't mean the whole group is horrible. IE Not all Muslims are terrorists, not all Christians are RWNJ fundies.
Don't let the rotten apples spoil the whole bunch.
[–]DavidByron2 9 points10 points11 points 11 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link
How do you explain the huge support among feminists for the hate laws they lobby for?
[–]fuckfeminister 10 points11 points12 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Except they choose to identify with a group who has openly lobbied against equal rights, subscibe to man hating preposterous theory and supports the radicals in power. This is what the fucking average feminist do, and it's not the fucking first time in history either.
[–]adaam_93 -3 points-2 points-1 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
If they are opposed to equal rights and hate men then they are not the "average" feminist, they are militant feminists.
The radical subsets of groups make all the noise, get all the attention, and make everyone think they represent the group as a whole, but that is not the case.
[–][deleted] 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
get all the attention, and make everyone think they represent the group as a whole
i'm curious what do you think should be a "feminist" solution to this?
[–]foyamoon 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
No true Scotsman!
[–]PadaV4 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
idk, why where you downvoted. Seems to be a typical case of "no true Scotsman"
he got downvoted because we're getting brigaded. seems like SRS has been busy. http://i.imgur.com/XZnhJDU.png (its the last comment, it seems she deleted it but it doesn't show on her history?)
I need feminism because I don't understand the point of signs and how you're only supposed to write like two sentences on them max.
[+]whamboom -9 points-8 points-7 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
The title should really read "Just Feminazism".
[–]DavidByron2 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Same thing.
Sure, if you can show significant amounts of achievements, goals and and people who contributed to society through the feminist movement and not just first wave feminists.
Because I can show you significant amounts of damage done under the banner of non-extremist feminism.
[–]STARVE_THE_BEAST -3 points-2 points-1 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
There's a difference?
[+]TidyBastard -11 points-10 points-9 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
oh mens rights are anti womens rights? Got it.
[–]DavidByron2 9 points10 points11 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Since 76% of women reject feminism, it's more like the feminists are anti-woman.
[–]AkaviriDragon 8 points9 points10 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
Lel. Men's rights are siding with a women (who doesnt like feminism), what a group of fucking sexists amirite guise?
Feminist isn't defending women's rights. Its about promoting women's interests. They're rights are already very well defended within the law, and with hardly any chance that law gets changed, unlike laws for men when people like elizabeth sheehy want to legalize women murdering their partners and call it battered woman syndrome, or when feminists lie about the wage gap to get women more money at the cost of men.
But, you know, if you don't agree with National Socialism, you must hate your nation and your people, right?
A movement isn't based on what it claims to be or its defenition, it's based on people's actions and achievements.
[–]BALROGG 0 points1 point2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Not sure if you are joking...
[–][deleted] -5 points-4 points-3 points 11 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link
I don't understand her poster. Why would her sons grow up thinking they have to hate themselves in order to respect women because of feminism? Who told her that she deserved to be raped? I'm sure no real feminist told her that. I also seriously doubt the feminist movement wished death upon her. She doesn't explain any of her reasoning. Did this get seriously upvoted or is this a satire of some sort? I'm having trouble understanding how a post like this got so many upvotes. This type of post makes this subreddit look awful, and won't help advance any good discussion.
[–]DavidByron2 6 points7 points8 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
Why would her sons grow up thinking they have to hate themselves
Feminists are constantly running men down saying they are all rapists who hurt women by looking at them.
[–]Guy_who_makes_GIFs 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
She was probably on Tumblr, in which case all of these things are not just plausible, but likely- and by people who call themselves feminists, too.
Do we actually have a gender equality thread? I am tired of hardcore feminists also but also tired of not seeing actual mens' rights on this sub being discussed. It would be nice to have a thread that brought up issues for both men and women. Maybe /r/genderequality or something along those lines.
[–]R50cent -5 points-4 points-3 points 11 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link
Where does this woman live, I would like to send her flowers.
Edit: or... grenades? I WAS BEING SERIOUS WHAT DO YOU PEOPLE WANT FROM ME
[–]StrikingEarth -4 points-3 points-2 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
That was deep, good for her.
[–]Rhac_o_dac -3 points-2 points-1 points 11 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link
"I don't like feminists because I know some REALLY shitty feminists!" is not very different from "I don't like men because I know some REALLY shitty men!"
[–]HTARCADE 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link
Except feminism is a political movement and men are a biological sex. It's a poor comparison unless you're making the argument that men are some political group.
[–]Rhac_o_dac -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link
I chose men to more easily relate it to people in this thread. I could also say atheists, theists, republicans, democrats, etc. Every movement or people group has its shitty members, but feminism isn't shitty because of the shitty feminists that shout louder than everyone else.
[–]HTARCADE 3 points4 points5 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
The difference once again is that men, like any biological group are not tied together by a core ideology. Unless you can provide some evidence to suggest men are inherently bent to some shared political view point that is only unique amongst men then yes your comparison would hold.
In contrast to men, one isn't born a feminist it's something you choose. It's a political faction meaning that when you subscribe to this group you thereby inherent all that comes with it. If feminist want to restore the name of feminism they would be better served to call out the feminist who are giving them a bad name as opposed to telling everyone else they aren't real feminist.
[–]YabuSama2k 1 point2 points3 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
shitty feminists that shout louder than everyone else.
That's what feminism has become. Any other types of feminism have surrendered the movement to the crazies. Any reasonable feminists that are left have no voice in the movement and stand meekly in the shadows.
[–]noktoque 2 points3 points4 points 11 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link
Sex is an innate attribute you are born with, feminism is an ideology you embrace at your own discretion.
Because criticising someone's politics is just like saying they are shitty for how they were born!
To a feminist.
[–]stop_stalking_me -2 points-1 points0 points 11 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link
ITT: people from /r/all brigading
Good. Let them come. We have Truth and science on our site.
© TheRedArchive 2026. All rights reserved.created by /u/dream-hunter
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