Madonna whore complex is the equivalent to alpha fucks beta bucks

Disastrous-Chart-928 · 2025-03-25T15:19:18+00:00

The average man is not fucking the 'hot whore', so this entire argument collapses right out the gate

ErenYeagerwasright · 2025-03-25T16:07:38+00:00

The difference is, the Madonna get's treated like a prized horse. While in the female version of the madonna-whore complex. The madonna, which in this case would be the "beta bucks" is still expected to treat her like a prized horse.

It would be okay if the woman would put the man on a pedestal and treat him like a prized horse, but that's not the case. If it was, then it would not be the problem. Then the sexy alpha bad boy got the sexual treatment, and the beta get's taken care of financially.

But since that's not the case, the beta get's the shit end of the stick. So it's a terrible deal.

leosandlattes · 2025-03-25T13:07:51+00:00

Men will marry the Madonna and then resent her when she doesn’t want to be a whore for him. Ironically hating the part of her that kept her chaste and pure even though he wanted it for marriage.

On the other hand he will love the whore’s sexual openness and adventurousness, but then resent her for having multiple partners before him. Retroactive jealousy starts and it’s downhill from there.

Funnily enough it also reflects the pattern of wanting the best parts of both sides of the dual mating strategy. In r/RedPillWomen we call this “Sexy Madonna” or the “Chaste Whore”, which is analogous to women wanting a “Greater Beta” or “Soft Alpha”.

The problem with this equivalence though is that it’s not 1:1 the same. You can be a Madonna and still be sexually wanted by a man (given that you present yourself as sexually available). When women do AF/BB, they are not typically sexually attracted to the turbo beta she chose for marriage; she used to him to fill in a generic “husband slot.”

missmireya · 2025-03-26T01:29:11+00:00

Whores? You mean sluts. Men of all ages love sluts and still marry them. I've seen it more than once.

OKSector69 · 2025-03-25T19:35:32+00:00

All of this back and forth is irrelevant. TRP was for straight men dating women. "But men do it too" is totally beside the point. It was about men trying to analyze and discuss womens dating habits. Mens dating habits are totally irrelevant to that conversation.

Schleudergang1400 · 2025-03-25T14:31:37+00:00

For relationships, men and women want something "in between" a madonnna and a whore, a beta and an alpha. The traits that go with those terms are not even all on the same spectrum. The whore can be sweet, the low n count girl can be hot. What people want is "the best of both worlds". And most people are way more "in between" than on those extreme ends.

The hot, sweet girl with the medium amount of sex partners. The safe, stable, provider, who is masculine, great with kids and also high social status and attractive.

Also, what most people get wrong about the madonna-whore complex: it's a rare condition and not something that applies to all men. Very few men have a problem of sexualizing their romantic relationship partner and mother of their children. Also "whore" is not meant to be a literal sex worker.

RegularGlobal34 · 2025-03-25T18:33:11+00:00

Bro what.

Okay sex worker may be an exceptional case so it's another discussion, but normally I would want to both wife up and bang the f out of the girl I like.

Also since you brought out the sex worker thing, I personally don't believe in "sex work" and treat it as human trafficking. Also calling her the w-word would be odd because sex work is not completely what you want and has a coercive aspect, so that's different compared to say someone who is extremely sexually adventurous and does a lot of hookups.

In this situation, our lifestyles and the way we view sex would be incompatible (because I treat sex more like a way of connection) so I doubt it'll last long. I'm not into hookup culture myself because it honestly seems so dead to have emotionless sex.

But yeah I wouldn't turn down a girl who's compatible with me and we vibe together and she's likes me just because she has a high count or was a sl*t. It depends on a lot of factors.

MilkyWayler · 2025-03-26T18:46:07+00:00

If women find this so bad why do they practice too? It's not men who are being hypocritical here

BobtheArcher2018 · 2025-03-25T12:59:30+00:00

Actual madonna whore is way rarer than what the manosphere asserts the AF/BB dynamic is, though ofc one may disagree on the prevalence.

Moreover, the 'whore' is not more desired than the good girl by most men. She's just more available. Meanwhile, the AF/BB argument is that BB isn't really desired at all.

These are not equivalents.

HighlightDowntown966 · 2025-03-25T15:07:16+00:00

The difference is that beta bucks cost. While alpha fucks for free.

sex worker or civvy girl both cost for beta brad.

Its not the same thing

AidsVictim · 2025-03-25T13:15:20+00:00

The obvious difference is the "Madonna" is not a compromise being settled for because she provides utility. "Beta bucks" implies a deficiency in the man (not attractive/exciting enough) that Madonna doesn't.

There's not an exact symmetry between genders so trying to call hypocrisy doesn't work well when their views are simply different.

The closest symmetry is in the idealized partners- women want the hot exciting chad that still provides and is loyal to just them, men want the hot chick that's a whore just for them while being stable.

Junior_Ad_3086 · 2025-03-25T13:55:54+00:00

the madonna gets chosen, beta bucks gets settled for.

TermAggravating8043 · 2025-03-25T12:45:28+00:00

It’s basic misogyny ain’t it?

It’s ok for men to put woman into 2 categories depending on what she’s most useful for. But if women don’t it to men, oh no, now she’s exploiting him

Atrass · 2025-03-25T12:35:53+00:00

Main difference imo is the fact that a woman would date the alpha if she could, but since she can’t she settles for a guy she does not really like.

Now If you take account the fact that most men do not like a high bodycount in a woman it means a beta is basically a loser, while a low n-count woman is not.

behappyfor · 2025-03-25T12:48:42+00:00

Men do the same exact thing lol, and even with the chad thing is also reversed with stacy. Men will date average chicks but if Stacy calls or is in love with them they will leave her for Stacy. Yet somehow women are the ones who are Chad obsessed when it's same for men People fold for attractive people a lot, men think it's applicable only to women when it's mostly applicable to men since they are visual creatures And the madonna whore complex is also the same exact thing men say women do, they will date s l uts and then marry the "innocent wife" that takes care of the house, but then they complain about the beta bux situation lol Everyone wants a hot attractive partner during dating but that person during marriage

Certain_Process_7657 · 2025-03-25T15:15:44+00:00

Men will fuck the hot whore but would he marry her? no. Would he marry the sweet low n count girl? sure.

Disagree. Plenty of men would still marry the hot whore. Looks and sex quality are paramount for most men, especially if they don't have super high optionality themselves. Not necessarily a pure beta buck, but not an absolute alpha fuck.

ColbyXXXX · 2025-03-25T13:31:12+00:00

Women fuck AND have relationships with attractive assholes hoping they will change for them. They get burnt out and leave him or he cheats and leaves her. This happens to lots of women and then the men she never would have dated have to hear about how men are terrible cheaters lol.

DietTyrone · 2025-03-25T13:48:35+00:00

This is quite hilarious to me when men have different standards for sex and relationships too! Men will fuck the hot whore but would he marry her? no. Would he marry the sweet low n count girl? sure.

This isn't what the Madonna-whore complex is. The complex is when a man compartmentalizes women into sexual or pure and can't get aroused towards women he deems pure. Obviously, most men have no issue getting aroused with women they view as wife material. So, most don't actually suffer from this complex.

Difference between what you're describing and betabuxxing is that wife material is generally treated better than the 304 and the man puts more effort towards her. While betabuxxing is forced to jump through more hoops other men previously didn't to prove he's worthy of a relationship because the woman is less aroused with him than with previous men. So he gets treated worse and forced to do more to essentially pay his way into a relationship by offering some utility. Something the alphafuxx (a man who actually atouses her) would never have to do.

TL;DR: Betabuxx it treated like the option she settled for, wife material is treated like the guys preferred option.

Competitive_Lion_260 · 2025-03-25T13:40:05+00:00

What an excellent point you make OP. :)

Intelligent-Insight · 2025-03-27T18:31:43+00:00

You are completely wrong here.

First of all, that's not what madonna-whore complex is. The complex is about seeing the same woman in a different role depending on familiarity. Say, if she gave you a child or you were together for a very long time. It's not about splitting women into 2 categories. That being said, it's clear what you were trying to say - that's there's af/bb for men. So let's assume you just used some different term and proceed.

It's still not at all equivalent and not pretty much the exact same thing. The reason for that is that in case of af/bb a woman settles more of than not. The man who gets with her later, will usually get a less enthusiastic and more jaded woman, who's "not like that" anymore. She probably finished her experimental phase and won't experiment with him and if he didn't try something - that's his problem, he should've done that before meeting her. We've seen these nightmare stories many times - she did stuff with the ex but won't with the current guy. She got burned in the past and is now giving hard time in the present. Etc. The reverse is rarely true. A "bb" wife will get his best, it's unlike he will refuse to experiment with her or do stuff he did with "af" whores (sure, there are exceptions), he will happily do anal, threesomes, eat ass, what have you. The numbers of stories from both sides where their partner gives them less are not comparable.

Finally, the last paragraph. Where is hypocrisy? There would only be a hypocrisy if the man himself was a sex worker sleeping with other men (or women, or both) but shamed women for sex work sleeping with other men (or women, or both - as long as the same as who that man was sleeping with). There's no hypocrisy in your scenario, though.

96mercy · 2025-03-28T01:26:39+00:00

Because women typically want to date the same men they fuck. Men typically separate relationship girls and just sex girls

desiringyouall8 · 2025-03-29T11:42:59+00:00

I've actually noticed this too.

Like you said, the problem with both the Madonna/whore and alpha/beta complexes is they lead people to seperate their more immediate, visceral desires from their more long term oriented needs and family life centered emotions, seeking to fulfill them in seperate people rather than looking for a single person to fulfill both parts of themselves in a single relationship.

And we cannot integrate these parts of ourselves within us when they aren't both directed towards the same person.

weenieandthebutt · 2025-03-25T13:36:23+00:00

The main complaint from men comes from the long term provider given the lesser sexual treatment in comparison to the short term hot guy.

Women wouldn't get with the betabux'd dude or even look twice his way if she were in her hookup phase whereas men would still always be attracted to the Madonna if she offered herself a hookup.

kimcen · 2025-03-25T16:38:55+00:00

I hope you read this.

For a man to be fully satisfied with a Madonna, all she has to do is get better at sex, literally follow his instructions in bed. A few years of relationship and they'll be good forever.

For a beta guy to become alpha, he has to change his entire personality and the way he treats women. He has to essentially do a 180º in who he is just for the woman to lust over him.

It's worlds apart from being similar.

throwaway98776468 · 2025-03-25T20:43:43+00:00

Claiming its hypocritical for guys to want their partner to find them sexually attractive, while not wanting to date a sex worker, who's job is to repeatedly cheat on them, is possibly the most deranged take I have seen on this subreddit in a while.

Commercial-Engineer3 · 2025-03-25T23:24:22+00:00

Most men treat the Whore like Madonna because their standards are on the floor. This would only apply to the top 10% of men. Women are spoiled for choice when it comes to the bottom 90% of men for their entire lives.

YetAnotherCommenter · 2025-03-26T00:23:21+00:00

Men will fuck the hot whore but would he marry her? no. Would he marry the sweet low n count girl? sure. So whys it such a problem when women will fuck hot guys who are dickheads but have relationships with more stable guys?

It is more likely to be a problem because men are still sexually attracted to the low-n-count sweet girl, whereas women who settle for Billy Beta are almost certainly NOT sexually attracted to him.

And this is an issue because sexual compatibility is a necessity for a successful romantic relationship, and in the event of a relationship failing and dissolving, almost all the relationship's exit costs fall on the man.

I'm not a fan of Madonna-whore thinking, but I don't think Madonnas & Whores can be analogized to Betas & Alphas respectively, as both Madonnas and Whores can be sexually desired by men on a purely primal red-meat-attraction level, whereas Betas by definition lack sexual desirability to the (vast majority of opposite-sex-attracted members of the) opposite sex.

Again it comes down to men having lower sexual standards than women.

Men need to stop being hypocrites... and self reflect...

If you want men to behave differently, you need to change the incentives they face. Since, in our culture, men bear the cost of relationship dissolution, they're going to have this Madonna-Whore Complex (as you've defined it). And that's without looking at the biological issue of potential cuckoldry, which almost certainly had an evo-psych impact on male assessments of relationship risk too.

Want men to drop the Madonna-Whore complex? Reduce the costs they face in the event of relationship dissolution and promote things that guarantee paternal certainty. It really is that simple. Change the incentives and the behavior will follow.

cuckspace · 2025-03-26T01:22:45+00:00

Most men want a madonna who is “whore” internally, but only for him. Nobody wants to date an actual whore/sex worker. I like sluts that enjoy sex for its own sake, but doing it for money ruins the appeal, makes it fake and transactional. Sex is a sacred act to be enjoyed exclusively or freely — not monetized.

The point is, madonnas who have a healthy appetite for sex are much more appealing to most men than sluts/whores, both regarding sex and relationships. BB or “nice guys” are not sexually appealing to any woman. They are at best a means to an end or someone to settle for, never the first choice.

phoenixalot · 2025-03-27T09:42:45+00:00

Because any women could be Madonna, but not every man can be Chad. For women being disadvantaged was their decision. For men being disadvantaged is their reality. It’s like saying what the difference between a guy with face tats and a black guy being discriminated against for a job opportunity.

Emotional_Meal748 · 2025-03-25T13:30:36+00:00

It’s the other way around. Madonna is the beautiful one and the whore is the ugly one. MWC is the equivalent of AFBB but not equal. They are duals of one another.

ThulsaDoomer · 2025-03-25T18:42:51+00:00

It comes from nature. Men are gene spreaders, women are gene selectors. Men are generalists, women are specialists.

Experience and high body count is valued by women. They would rather have a guy like that, than someone who is inexperienced and cannot lead. Experience and high body count means the man is valuable and highly desired. He must have good genes.

With women it's the opposite. Men are disgusted by women who have a high body count. A man would rather have a virgin than a woman who is very experienced. An experienced woman with high body count communicates poor choosing ability, lack of reliability, lack of trust, lack of standards.

You can argue all you want against this and that women and men are equal when it comes to promiscuity and it's a new world, but it is not, it's been like this for thousands of years. You cannot argue with nature.

wtknight · 2025-03-25T13:44:58+00:00

So whys it such a problem when women will fuck hot guys who are dickheads but have relationships with more stable guys?

Because men worry about the loyalty of women who have done this. On the other hand, most women don’t mind their male long-term partner having been promiscuous in the past if he is attractive enough to her.

So it’s not really the same because women often ignore men’s past sexual behavior as long as he “treated his previous partners well”.

Boxisteph · 2025-03-31T14:07:31+00:00

Both are terms designed to explain how men are unable to integrate their perception of people. A woman can have maddonna and whore traits a man can be an alpha with beta benefits. People's psyches are that polarised. If they are either than person has a personality disorder or your personality disorder is causing them to polarise around you.

DumbWordsmith · 2025-03-25T12:45:49+00:00

Except the Madonna gets everything the man has to offer. The beta is used for his money and emotional support and has to jump through endless hoops to receive affection.

IMO the short-term dude and the long-term woman have it the best.

ogskatepunkdaddy · 2025-03-25T13:08:22+00:00

I find these terms acceptable.

As long as no "whores" (male or female) start crying about not being able to find a partner to settle down with (because they choose their role when they were young) I think we have a deal.

Fichek · 2025-03-25T12:46:13+00:00

Oh, how refreshing! Something new on PPD.

Spice-Man · 2025-03-25T13:30:13+00:00

Idk if i have everything financially and status wise and im just seen as settling or a beta bux as you say then why not just cheat on these women. They dont really care why be honest at all anymore.

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Proudvow · 2025-03-26T04:39:15+00:00

Women can choose whether or not to be a sex worker or a virgin or something in between those.

The complaint you used as an example very clearly focuses on the man NOT being allowed to choose his role.

modidlee · 2025-03-25T12:43:35+00:00

Because when you’re a woman who “fucks the hot guys” then you relegate yourself to the status of the “hot whore.” And you may say why do men get to pick and choose who’s the hot white vs the sweet low n count girl. Because men are the ones who ask a woman to marry.

meteorness123 · 2025-03-25T15:32:59+00:00

Beta bucks doesn't really happen unless there's a big age difference or it's the autistic engineer and hot nurse ombo which rarely happens these days.

Title	Madonna whore complex is the equivalent to alpha fucks beta bucks
Author	Illustrious-Line-996
Upvotes	79
Comments	201
Date	March 25, 2025 12:24 PM UTC (1 year ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1jji35m/madonna_whore_complex_is_the_equivalent_to_alpha/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/madonna-whore-complex-is-the-equivalent-to-alpha.1547573 https://theredarchive.com/post/1547573

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