Socio-Economic Class Mega Thread

AutoModerator · 2021-02-21T21:00:14+00:00

This sticky is to semi-relevant hot topics that may change from week to week. This week, SES threads seemed to be a big hit, in particular how common marriages...

[–]OXOzymandiasBig Sexy 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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I’ll play...

1) 150k CAD per year in salary, bonus and stock matching

2) about 750-800k, with about 150-200K liquid

3) I don’t need someone with accreditation, or paper education, be inquisitive and curious, have something you are disciplined and passionate about, be able to have an intelligent conversation and get my humour. Income/job I am kind of the same way

4) just fine, own a home with a low mortgage in a good location, pension, 6 figure investment portfolio

5) not really, prefer to save. Drive a 7 year old mid-tier suv, buy good quality food and clothing/shoes because they last longer

6) yes, travel to Japan every few years, and pre COVID was taking a week in the winter in the Caribbean or central America, and not shit like Cuba and DR, I go to St Vincent or Roatan, Costa Rica, St Lucia...

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You want a brag? Here is one. I swear on whatever you care to name that this is true. I'm a semi-regular poster here. Throwaway for obvious reasons.

$300K plus
Around $40K. Although that is because I just started working and am 22.
Minimum Income: None, I can support my GF just fine. Education: She must have a Master's in a STEM field. More importantly she must be able to display signs of intelligent life.
Just saving up for now, I get in far more money than I spend due to being single etc. so it all gets saved.
I enjoy high end food, but I suppose pretty much everyone would. I recently bought a Patek Phillippe watch which I paid for with my own money. My first real splurge I should say.
Not really, had a few interesting vacations as a child but Covid hit soon after I graduated so didn't have time to go anywhere cool. Intend to do so once the restrictions are lifted.

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It could be any form of social media or television.

For example, Dr. Fauci’s status has skyrocketed in society. Why? Because of his ability to be seen and connect with others through television and social media. This guy is throwing the opening pitch at baseball games now.

Being a random physician and being nurse has the same similar status. The physician may have a little more because of the people they know but it’s not drastic enough. They connect with the same few people everyday. Let’s say 50 on average.

Now insert the internet and they connect with thousands even millions if people enjoy their content (tweets, posts, pictures, videos).

Look at this sub during purge week. Nobody is talking about the doctors or lawyers on here. They’re talking about the same 3 women they have a crush on who reject their view on the TRP.

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All the big VC firms recruit out of the I-banking Anaylst programs. Some suggest B-school, and maybe half (or slightly more) end up doing it.

The track is:

Ivy or mini Ivy undergrad.

Get recruited by the big I banks for their Analyst programs. A small percentage that they think will be superstars get recruited as Associates right out of undergrad - 4 in my class of about 150 joining a top tier I-bank back in the early 1990s. Of those 4 three went on to earn 9 figure annual comps - I was the exception.

If you’re a baller as an Analyst after 2 or 3 years you get hired to VC/PE/HF as an Associate or promoted by your bank. If not you go back to get your MBA

If you went back to get your MBA you will likely be recruited out of grad school by a competitor to your original bank. PE/VC/HF will also fill out their associate positions if they could not hire enough baller Analysts from the investment banking class.

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[–] jax006 1 point 2 points 3 points 5 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I don't know any of those things you just mentioned, gladly, but I will take your word for.it

And FWIW, pushing the envelope of physics and “doing cool things” largely is is pushing numbers just as pushing the envelope of econometrics and financial engineering to find better and more clever ways to manage risk

Nah lol I spend my weekdays flying in aircraft seeing how they respond to the input gains we develop, what can we.do better, how can we make this thing land itself, this sort of stuff does not yet exist in human analytics it is still pretty science fiction and we're still a long ways off from making it work flawlessly.

My favorite is when people opine about air taxis and the like.

I have already helped develop air taxis. It is called.a helicopter with an autopilot lmfao I am super happy to be at a company that is on the forefront of this stuff.

I do not think Being rich would move those same happy levers for me

[–] SeemedGood Red Pill Man 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I do not think Being rich would move those same happy levers for me

It’s not about being rich (though that’s a nice side effect). It’s about solving intractable problems, like accurately predicting how volatility affects itself over time, or how it is affected by different patterns of information asymmetry, or how to efficiently transfer certain types of risk within a given arbitrary framework.

Did you know that the mathematics involved in the pricing of equity options are essentially the same as those used to plot and control rocket trajectory and flight in an atmosphere? And interest rate options are significantly more complex than that.

Then consider that some of the smartest people in the world are competeing with each other to find the most efficient solutions to these problems. Trust me, finding a systematic error in the way the market is modeling credit derivative swaptions, designing a better model, and then testing it against say 100 other super smart guys around the world against whom you are competing with cold hard cash is as intellectually stimulating as it is financially rewarding.

[–] jax006 1 point 2 points 3 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–] SeemedGood Red Pill Man -1 points 0 points 1 point 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

This may just be a difference in innate interests

Probably because the airplane landing itself is a significantly less complex problem.

I also don't buy for a second about your claim that math regarding equity pricing is similar.to the math regarding launching rockets. as an aerospace engineer that makes literally zero snese.and sounds like bullshit.

Because you don’t know anything about options and how they are priced.

As an aerospace engineer you will likely recognize the importance of Brownian (and reflected Brownian) motion, the Weiner process, continuous time martingales, discrete or continuous Markov chains, and other diffusion modeling techniques in your field.

Those are the same mathematic principles that Fischer Black, Myron Scholes, and Robert Merton used to develop the original closed form option pricing models (for which they won a Nobel Prize). The state of financial engineering has developed substantially since then (50 year ago). As it turns out, modeling the pricing behavior of financial assets is not altogether dissimilar from the modeling done in fluid, thermo, and aero dynamics.

[–] jax006 2 points 3 points 4 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Probably because the airplane landing itself is a significantly less complex problem.

Disagree about this. However I say that from an ignorance of financial mechanics. But they're extremely different systems when it comes down to it; I guess what I focus on in my career is quit e a different subset of problems to solve aside from pure mathematics.

As an aerospace engineer you will likely recognize the importance of Brownian (and reflected Brownian) motion, the Weiner process, continuous time martingales, discrete or continuous Markov chains, and other diffusion modeling techniques in your field

Honestly I recognize some of this stuff but it is not what we use in our industry. I get that these high level concepts are used in design but this is largely not how modern aerospace companies design things.

At my job we do a lot of trial and error to snuff out the math issues. It is far easier to install data collecting units on a helicopter which yield data about the helicopters flight, rather than trying to play pinky and the brain and developing helicopter flight dynamics by analysis.

Maybe you're talking over my head with this stuff. (I kind of doubt it as the program at my company was the first to ever land a small airplane autonomously)

I don't disagree that there are extremely complex mathematical models that go into financial prediction, but it just doesn't seem fun in the same way that making a helicopter fly itself is fun

I am a big non-believer in the fallacy that there are magical engineers and mathematicians and physicists who will someday make Marvel style breakthroughs in science.

For instance: flying cars have already been invented. It is called a helicopter. There are classical physics based reasons that this isn't a good solution.

I look forward to the day that some math genius can explain and make use of what happens in a physical singularity such as the center of a vortex. Such a breakthrough will change the world.

I do not look forward to incremental improvements in how international investment banking firms make more money based on markets. To me that is dull and boring and kind of a pathetic track for humans, other than growing my own wealth, it is kind of sad to think of the investment the world puts into such endeavors. (Granted that is a function of incentive. But that has nothing to do with my original point)

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From what I’ve seen they get to work the job you spend you whole working career trying to attain as an internship for a summer before going on to their elite old boys club appointments at top financial legal or governmental organizations.

I had this one kid working with me for the summer, she was smart and ambitious, but like, I worked 10 hard years to get to where she was at that point, and she gets to do it for the summer before bouncing off to work as a quantitative analyst at a top trading firm. I half joke that a lot of the students I’ve had working for me will be my boss one day...but it’s going to be true. The UC and even some UMC have a massive leg up on the next spot on the pyramid below.

My observation anyway, as someone born WC (even a bit under class) and but in a UMC profession

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depends on how the family makes their money. if the family is wealthy bc they own a business, then yes, the kids dont need to major in STEM because they already know theyre going to help daddy run the biz when they graduate. my friends dad owns a successful business and she didn't try too hard in college because her post-grad job was already set for her.

if the family is full of doctors, lawyers, and investment bankers (generally these families are not as wealthy as the above bc theyre wage cucks), then the kids will be raised to do well in school and follow in their parents' footsteps.

if the family is in real estate, then it depends. usually they will send their kids to school to major in finance/economics/real estate from what ive seen.

tl;dr successful parents basically just want their children to copy them. if the family's success was largely due to the education they received, then the parents are going to shove education down the kids throats. if the family got lucky and their success is not correlated to their education, the parents will not be as strict w their kids when it comes to college.

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To me a guy who owns a landscaping business that nets 7 figures is definitely upper class, above a doctor who makes 300k a year for example

A professor isn't UMC no matter how educated he is

Guys this is so wrong it's not even funny. Both of these examples are literally wrong - no, the landscaping guy is not likely to be upper class, certainly not above the doctor; if he really makes 7 figures that does count for something but it's not the whole story, not by a long shot. Likewise yes, many professors are UMC irrespective of income (I assume there is a lot of income distribution amongst professors though, depending on school, specialty, and so forth).

Class is a complex intersection of income, wealth (these are different), respect, power, education, sophistication, intellectual interests, family pedigree, "type" of work (white-collar vs. blue) and perhaps some other things. Definitely not a one-dimensional question of annual income.

To be fair many people are misled on this because our usual model for assigning class categories is pretty flawed - it's a one-dimensional ladder when in reality it needs to be a matrix with at least two axes, e.g. income AND white-collar vs blue-collar. I've seen other models that work too.

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When I think "middle class" I think college educated but not necessarily high prestige (nurses, teachers, accountants, realtors, etc.) Probably went to a state school. Some may not be college grads but own a small business or work in commission sales etc. Own a home but not in the best neighborhood/suburb, maybe first gen college grad, not well-to-do and money may be tight sometimes but they're comfortable for the most part.

Upper middle class are higher-prestige professions like doctors and lawyers. Multiple generations of college graduates in the family. Went to public Ivy, actual Ivy or some other prestigious school. Owns land and/or multiple homes. International travel. Investments. Inheritance. Live in affluent suburbs, nice neighborhoods in cities or (if rural) on a ranch. Send their kids to private school or elite public magnets.

UC are, like, Kennedys and Rockefellers. Old money American royalty.

There are some gray areas and fuzziness at the boundaries but those are the general definitions I'd use.

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Sure, but I provided you with data against your position, by most of the objective, measurable metrics we use to evaluate long-term stability and viability of relationships.

Which was divorce and likelihood of marriage. I didn't say that UMC women divorce more. I said they are bad for anything serious. Divorce isn't the only bad outcome of marriage. I know there are incentives to get and stay married with UMC women that aren't present in other classes. I also know however that their upbringing incentivises some pretty crappy behaviors.

and no one can really change your gut feelings, especially if you aren't going to engage the counter data.

I was actually looking to see if it was a common observation or not. I already knew about the divorce stats and they don't sufficiently address what I'm talking about.

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What's the point in going to college when it's not what you know, it's who you know? Class is mostly static and success in most if not all professions comes down to connections.

To make bank as a lawyer you need to have wealthy clients. Who do wealthy people hire as their lawyers? Ivy league grads. Sure you might argue upper class people are more intelligent but most ivy league students come from at least UMC families or higher. Sure an academically talented working class guy might get into Harvard, but he doesn't have the right last name to be selected by elites unfortunately.

Maybe if you're a genius quant on wall street or coder you'll get lucky but that's a small minority of people.

Sounds like college is just credentialism for most people. Arts grads from Harvard get good corporate jobs from daddy so if you're upper class there's no such thing as a useless degree.

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My personal unicorn is a women who:

Holds a graduate level STEM degree (can talk in depth about C++ or particle physics, makes her own money)
Has low risk aversion (is physically fit, will go on mountain biking and camping adventures with me, is fun and open-minded sexually)
Is right of center politically (Doesn't have predictable, NPC-tier opinions that come from CNN)

Why is it that this combination seems to be a complete impossibility in 2021? For a man who desires these traits (can't imagine I'm the only one), it seems that a massive compromise is necessary no matter which way he goes.

Conservative and low risk aversion -> Less likely (not saying impossible) to be highly educated

Highly educated and lower risk aversion -> Near guarantee of nauseating politics

Highly educated and conservative -> More likely to be highly risk averse. I've met women like this but 99% of them are foreign and extremely sexually conservative and very uninterested in adventure or fun

I can say with confidence I have never in my life (I'm 43) run into a woman that had all three traits. So I ask my PPD brethren, does this unicorn I've described above exist? Is this an impossible set of traits to find in a women in 2021?

[–][deleted] 12 points13 points14 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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This is already the reality for many Conservative men, yet I've plenty of posts of them complaining about not being able to find even traditional Conservative women.

I would bet that most of those posts are authored by conservative men living in Slave States, who don’t attend church regularly, and who are over 30, in which case you’re going to have a hard time because the good conservative women hate the Slave States, tend to also be serious about their faith, and get married early.

Also, OP didn't ask for a tradwife, that lives in a small rural town who goes to church and is looking to get married young. He asked for a woman that is educated, Conservative, is open minded sexually, and has low risk aversion.

It’s becoming clear to me that you don’t know many conservative women and very likely live in a Slave State. Your view of such women seems based on what you have seen on TV rather than what you have actually experienced.

Plenty of traditionally minded wives who get married young and attend church are also well educated, and sexually open (with their fiancés/husbands), and have lowish risk aversion compared to most women (do risky sports, enjoy speculative investment, etc).

[–]OmarNBradley 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–] SeemedGood Red Pill Man 2 points 3 points 4 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]death_by_1000_cats 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm from a rural area in a "free state" and grew up in a very strict evangelical church in what was, at the time, the most conservative county in the US (maybe still is, not sure). I have literally never met a woman like the OP is describing, who was simultaneously educated (and not just educated, but educated specifically in STEM at the graduate level), conservative politically, and thrill-seeking/risk-taking. The one criteria most of them fulfilled was the "conservative" part. Most of them weren't educated at all, and the ones who were majored in something like nursing or early childhood education, not STEM (because these are the types of career tracks that generally appeal to conservative/religious/family-oriented women). Precisely none of them were into high-adrenaline outdoor sports (and it would be a challenge even if they were, since most women in my church didn't wear pants, let alone workout clothes). Not all of them were fat, but many were, and none of them were particularly fit.

On the other hand I've met a lot of outdoorsy STEM chicks in my current city, and zero of them are conservative politically.

I'm not saying there aren't a few women who exist who meet all these requirements, but the idea that churches in red state rural areas are teeming with highly educated STEM women is delusional.

[–] SeemedGood Red Pill Man 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago * (0 children) | Copy Link

Graduate level STEM women stretches it because ...well graduate level STEM women are rare AF, generally. In my Coastal Establishment Elite circle of (“progressive” “liberal”) close acquaintances, can’t think of a single graduate level STEM woman either - though there must be one slipping my mind. Closest is probably a physician. In my broader circle I can remember a very few Coastal graduate level STEM women (soccer mom’s) but roughly half were lesbian.

As for outdoorsy, don’t know where you’re from but the women around me are far far more outdoorsy than the women in any city in which I have lived or spent any significant amounts of time, including Zürich and Stockholm (where they are more “outdoorsy” than anywhere in the US). They hunt, fish, ride rodeo, ski, hike, mountain bike, play soccer, volleyball, manage livestock, and ride dirt bikes and snowmobiles. Heck, I could go months without seeing a woman in heels unless I was really looking for one.

[–]Assassins-BleedMixed babies are the future 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I would bet that most of those posts are authored by conservative men living in Slave States, who don’t attend church regularly, and who are over 30, in which case you’re going to have a hard time because the good conservative women hate the Slave States, tend to also be serious about their faith, and get married early.

What is it with people and gatekeeping. "Everything that is negative is not that, its actually this!"

Its so tiresome.

It’s becoming clear to me that you don’t know many conservative women

I grew up a Seventh Day Adventist, go look it up. I guarantee that its beliefs and practices are far more Conservative than what your denomination. I know many of women who were raised Conservatively. The attrition rate is pretty high.

and very likely live in a Slave State.

I'm very happy to not be living in Alabama or Mississippi or not freezing to death in Texas because my Governor is incompetent, thank you very much.

Plenty of traditionally minded wives who get married young and attend church are also well educated, and sexually open (with their fiancés/husbands), and have lowish risk aversion compared to most women (do risky sports, enjoy speculative investment, etc).

Saying that their are plenty isn't an answer. Where are they? Let OP know.

[–] SeemedGood Red Pill Man 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago * (0 children) | Copy Link

I grew up a Seventh Day Adventist, go look it up. I guarantee that its beliefs and practices are far more Conservative than what your denomination.

Meh. I suppose that depends on what one considers conservative. In my neck of the woods, the 7th Dayers are considered pretty far out there on the cult spectrum, and most certainly more “liberal/progressive” (read collectivist) leaning on the ideological spectrum.

According to Pew Research, only 37% of 7th Dayers identify as ideologically “Conservative,” and 45% are Democrats or lean Democratic in party affiliation (10% more than are or lean Republican in party affiliation).

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/11/03/a-closer-look-at-seventh-day-adventists-in-america/

I'm very happy to not be living in Alabama or Mississippi or not freezing to death in Texas because my Governor is incompetent, thank you very much.

Also happy to not be living in Alabama, Mississippi, or Texas - mostly because I grew up in Southern humidity and can’t stand it, but also because I love to ski. There are other Free States, however, and I’d much rather deal with some unexpected cold weather and the resultant power outages than tyrannical governors who overreach their authority to destroy the small business economies of their states.

Where are they?

I’ve already told you: more rural communities in Free States, at church, and largely married if over 25 or so.

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I think people make the mistake of not separating "old money" and "new money" when talking about this socioeconomic phenomenon of people picking within their class.

What I was told in my psychology class is that women marry across and up (socioeconomically) while men marry across and down. It is much much much much much much more common for women to marry into wealth at the top than it is for men to marry a partner of equal wealth and status.

As far as the "old money vs new money" argument goes, old money cares about status and reputation. New money, not so much. The only reasons why men might marry across are:

Relatability
Insurance/protecting assets

Men with money are acutely aware of gold-diggers or women looking to use them for their money or make off like bandits with a portion of their wealth through a divorce, and marrying someone with equal assets won't result in the "lost 50% of wealth and assets through divorce" like it used to, or like it still does with wealth disparities.

[–][deleted] 5 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]TheBookOfSeil 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Most of the discussion I've seen in this thread talks about UMC as if that classification is static, but your comment brings up an interesting point about 'new money'.

Yeah, I think the attitude comes from people thinking that everyone from the family carries the same class. My view is that everyone starts out in the lower class (with nothing) and they attain their own status. Of course, people in the upper classes have a bit of an advantage because of connections where they can move into a job that allows them to keep their status or remain upwardly mobile, but I don't think that just because someone comes from a wealthy family that they are the same class as their parents. Spoiled losers from rich families are still just spoiled losers if they don't make something of themselves.

Being happily married for over 11 years I haven't dated as a UMC, but even when I was dating as a LMC I knew my potential and dated across and up and never down, and my wife did the same. If I were to enter the dating market again, I'd definitely continue to date across and up based on my current status, never down.

Sure, you're able to have standards for the type of partner and lifestyle that you think you should be living, but men have generally and traditionally been observed as dating across and down (because men had the wealth and status) while women have generally and traditionally been observed as dating across and up (because men had the wealth and status).

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Maybe explain to her why it would be logical to get a prenup...?

In these cases, feelings > logic. You don't speak to someone about logic who doesn't really care about/want to hear logic.

Don't marry a woman who wants you for your money solely

We're not able to tell what someone wants just by looking at them. Some people can be very convincing when going after what they want, and they'll lie to get it. That's why trust is so important and in this case, a prenup does not convey trust, which is why the situation is not typically easy to negotiate.

I don't think marriage should be abolished entirely, especially since it's important to some people (religion wise mostly),

Call me crazy, but I think the religious idea of marriage is separate from the legal institution of marriage. People can still "get married" without having a piece of paper that is supposed to be a physical representation of their love and feelings for each other. We can get rid of the legal institution of marriage, or at least abolish the law surrounding it. If you need to be coerced by the law to do something like stay together under threat of legal action/punishment for separating, I wouldn't call that a legitimate relationship.

can have the potential to be a good financial move (especially since most people are not rich),

Not sure what that has to do with marriage unless someone IS marrying "for the money."

and has proven to be better for potential children

Marriage itself is not the important thing. Being together to raise the children is, and you don't have to be specifically married to do that.

When it works out, people have nothing but good to say. When it doesn't, they say the opposite, like anything.

That can be said of any relationship though - married or not.

[–]athrowaway283222blue is my fav color 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

In these cases, feelings > logic. You don't speak to someone about logic who doesn't really care about/want to hear logic.

Don't marry someone who doesn't have a clear head especially regarding finance. 🤨

Some people can be very convincing when going after what they want, and they'll lie to get it.

I agree.

That's why trust is so important and in this case, a prenup does not convey trust, which is why the situation is not typically easy to negotiate.

Not necessarily, everyone knows that something could go wrong. Look at the divorce rate. I think couples who take precautions would be the happiest couples and it shows that they did not marry for $$ reasons.

Call me crazy, but I think the religious idea of marriage is separate from the legal institution of marriage.

Not crazy, I respect that, but I think the legal implications of marriage are beneficial.

Not sure what that has to do with marriage unless someone IS marrying "for the money."

It's about marriage being beneficial for two people who don't have a shit ton of money. In fact, any LTR can be beneficial due to dual income.

Being together to raise the children is, and you don't have to be specifically married to do that.

True. For some reason, I'm not sure if it's for the fact that the couple is staying together or whether it's marriage, kids are less likely to struggle in school, when their parents are married, and kids or not -- as a unit, a married couple are less likely to experience poverty. It also sucks that it takes legality to make people take relationships, and especially parenting seriously, but most stats point to that being the case.

That can be said of any relationship though - married or not.

Yep.

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Everyone in my professional peer group owns a Peloton. Everyone back where I’m from does not lol. I think ppl who are exposed to a certain strata and make enough money to support said strata, tend to care about not looking like slobs and being healthy for the most part.

Growing up, all I had was McDonald’s and greasy corner stores near me. And they were everywhere.

Now there’s a Trader Joe’s, Whole Foods, wegmans and artisanal convenience store every 2 feet.

If I were craving a Mickey Ds fish filet sandwich I would have to drive miles and miles and miles.

It’s as if the more money you have the harder it is to actually be fat or unhealthy looking by accident. Growing up it was much easier to gain weight because the options convenient to us were awful and quite honestly we didn’t know better/ lack of exposure.

It’s systemic!

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fuck you rich (200k a year and or a million dollar house).

Totally aside: That's aspirational fuck you rich when you're 35 or 42, but not at all when you're 62. Medical costs will eat that up faster than most people realize. Insuring that life against contingencies late 50s and beyond costs about 5-8 million in the bank, no less, preferably more. (that's 50% of 200k saved for 50-80 years, in other words, you didn't come close, so don't quibble my numbers unless you can change it by orders of magnitude)

On longer timelines and with certain exponential costs (medical care mostly, though some aspects of kids education also qualifies), the difference between 40k and 75k is not much, and the difference between 120k and 200k is also disappointing. Fuck you income is probably right around top 1%, maybe higher. Fuck you rich usually means they aren't working.

200k a year is only upper middle class. If adjusted for actual inflation, perhaps early 2000s 80-100k, if adjusted for inflation on medical costs or education costs, way less. What I mean is 200k maybe has the medical buying power, or the education buying power of median wages in say the 1980s. Get paid more, and never get fooled by the K's.

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The seemingly unreasonable demands of many lower class single mothers on twitter (examples could be easily found on a certain subreddit) could be easily explained by the following: they are leveraging the vast value of fulfilling social obligation brought upon by their circumstances, which tend to entice exactly the types of males they need (ones that are motivated to be economically productive in order to provide those less fortunate than them).

However, the problem with that transaction is that these days there's a shortage of such males, for the following reasons:

rising gini coefficient (inequality) meant that its harder for males to even meet the social economic prerequisites to begin contemplating helping out single mothers.
While society still technically overtly proclaim that providers are good, in reality they are often shamed & mocked. This has the effect of dramatically lowering the social value of helping out the less fortunate. This makes the single mother's greatest asset into its greatest liability.

It's kinda like diamond rings: most people officially claim that they are valuable (to the point where it almost feel like they have an intrinsic value), but just walk into any pawnshop and the reality is that most of them are far less valuable than their appraisal value...

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why would a random man waste valuable resources on with kids that are not even his to begin with

There are males that are capable of thinking more abstractly, and thus willing to take on the burden for the greater good of society/community/whatever...

... that being said, those types are also breed out of society generation after generations, for obvious reasons. Combined with the active shaming and mockery of taking up these kinds of burdens means that increasingly there's a deficit of providers to take up the slack (which is increasingly taken up by the government welfare state*).

*this is also why I don't really like the welfare state. There's a reason that [the often cited reason for formation of government welfare] that private charities are inadequate to care for all of society's less fortunate: because people are dicks and they actually don't give enough fucks, it's just that most don't want to admit that so the burden is punted off to the government and everyone can pat themselves on the back for being virtuous and doing something.

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Thanks though that's not exactly my point either. Rather, it's a consequences of the rising gini coefficient in the past few decades: with the death of the traditional middle class (and it's effectively dead, the end of pensions being the real that did it in, even if most didn't really notice that): with economical mobility being all but dead for the younger generation, a separate hierarchy has been constructed based on a combination of level of education, social political affiliation, and networking/popularity points.

That being said, this immaterial social class system can only be maintained in the context of a welfare state (it could be argued that the entirety of the structure could be classified as "the leisure class", hence them generally looking down on the working class) and outside assistance.

[–] NeuroplasticSurgery 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago * (0 children) | Copy Link

There's a lot here. I'd disagree slightly wrt the middle class. It isn't dead yet, but it's definitely contracting. The pension is almost dead, but moveable 401k and IRAs tied to index funds have replaced them, and probably for the better in the long run thanks to inflation.

Pensions were more common in working class union jobs or LMC professions anyway (like cops and teachers, who still have pensions btw) and this difference highlights the exact class-cultural divide you were commenting on.

how the burger flipper with a masters in gender studies who is politically active on social media has higher social standing (or perceive themselves to be, same difference) than the blue collar working making 6 figures but only went to trade school and isn't virtue signaling on social media.

This point here is what my comment to the other poster was related to: that money does not necessarily equal class. There's a connection, of course. But class is more like money plus time and breeding.

In other words, that blue collar 6 figure business owner will probably have 2 or 3 kids: one of them will take over the family business, the other two will go to college and read Plato and Dante and Kant and go on to raise kids who are firmly UMC, by wealth and breeding.

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[–] ChibsFilipTelfordd Men should not date virgins 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–] reluctantly_red 1 point 2 points 3 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–] ChibsFilipTelfordd Men should not date virgins 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–] LeatherDifference583 1 point 2 points 3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–] AutoModerator [ S , M ] 0 points 1 point 2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	Socio-Economic Class Mega Thread
Author	AutoModerator
Upvotes	14
Comments	615
Date	February 21, 2021 9:00 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/lp6i1a/socioeconomic_class_mega_thread/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/socio-economic-class-mega-thread.744446 https://theredarchive.com/post/744446

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