Men who are not obsessed with women are also demonized

EuphoricBrightTipper · 2023-11-10T16:38:19+00:00

Many women criticize most men for using women as validation, but the fact is that men that are also obsessed with sports, video games, porn, etc. are...

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I think you're leaving out an important part of this. Anyone who's observed subs like these for some time has an enormous amount of experience seeing women speak on behalf of all women and insisting that they, themselves, are the baseline of what most if not all women think.

I don't think there's anything wrong with pointing out this particular irony. It doesn't have to be to the point of obsession at all - women want men to be interested in whatever specific women want those specific men to be interested in. This differs woman to woman and sometimes it changes with the same woman in the same day.

The problem is we're so often told by individual women that all women think x. Heck men are even told by women that men live life on easy mode by virtue of the fact that they are men because 1% of men are mega-elite billionaire overlords.

[–]MidoriEgg 8 points9 points10 points 2 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

If you can understand why women acting like they speak for every female is illogical, why does the same not apply for men acting like women are a hive mind.

There are always random people who get mad that people aren’t interested in the specific things they think they should be interested in; religious people get annoyed when you aren’t interested in their god, adults get mad when their kids are interested in tiktok instead of school work, old men get mad when you’re interested in pop music instead of the kinks, certain internet men get mad at women being interested in ‘chad’ instead of them etc etc etc verbatim.

I’ve seen men say some pretty crazy stuff like ‘It’s natural for a man to want to assault woman if there’s no laws’ or ‘no man really respects a woman.’ But I’m not dumb enough to use that as an excuse to brush all men with the same tar.

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When I accused that dude of being awfully sus, he said that I forgot that Pacific Islanders and Native Americans exist. Which...I mean I don't think that's what he meant but okay.

A significant portion of what is mainstream in "women's entertainment" (like Bravo!), affectations within the gay community, and pop culture comes directly from Black women. You cannot deny the influence of Black women on a very significant amount of American and less so but still significantly global culture. KPop, as an example, takes a lot of elements from the R&B heavy periods of the 90s and 2000s. BBLs. The adoption of AAE into everyday language. The popularization of body types that aren't anorexic model chic from the late 90s. Being assertive as a woman.

With respect to African Americans, though, women heavily outnumber men. The African American gender ratios in Table 1 are all lower than corresponding White ratios, and gaps between African American and White gender ratios are sizable. In Cook County, Illinois, which includes the city of Chicago, there are only 76 nonincarcerated men of age at least 18 for every 100 comparable women; the relevant number of White men is 93.¹

In New York, almost 120,000 black men between the ages of 25 and 54 are miss- ing from everyday life. In Chicago, 45,000 are, and more than 30,000 are missing in Philadelphia. Across the South—from North Charleston, S.C., through Georgia, Alabama and Mississippi and up into Ferguson, Mo.—hundreds of thousands more are missing.¹

They are missing, largely because of early deaths or because they are behind bars. Remarkably, black women who are 25 to 54 and not in jail outnumber black men in that category by 1.5 million, according to an Upshot analysis. For every 100 black women in this age group living outside of jail, there are only 83 black men. Among whites, the equivalent number is 99, nearly parity.¹

At the same time:

It is common for Black women to have received two messages. One message states, "Because you will be a Black woman, it is imperative that you learn to take care of yourself because it is hard to find a Black man who will take care of you." A second message frequently received by young Black females that conflicts with the first message is "your ultimate achievement will occur when you have snared a Black man who will take care of you." In discussing early socialization experiences with countless young Black women in recent years, I have found that most of them agree that these two messages were given them by socialization agents and agencies such as child caretakers, relatives, peer group members, the Black church, and the media. When internalized, these two messages often produce a Black woman who seems to reject aspects of the traditional female sex role in America such as passivity, emotional and economic dependence, and female subordinance while accepting other aspects of the role such as expressiveness, warmth, and nurturance. This is precisely why Black women seem to be more androgynous than White women.²

Black women's androgyny, though, may be more a function of necessity than anything else. It may be related to the scarcity of Black men who assume traditional masculine roles in male- female relationships Whatever the reason for Black women's androgynous orientations, because of such orientations Black women often- times find themselves in conflictual relationships with Black men or in no stable relationships at all. The scenario generally can be described as follows. Many Black women in early adulthood usually begin a search for a Black Prince Charming. However, because of the dearth of Black men who can be or are willing to be Prince Charmings for Black women, Black women frequently soon give up the search for such a Black man. They give up the search, settle for less, and "like" what they settle for even less. This statement is important because many Black women's eventual choices are destined to become constant reminders that the "female independence" message received during the early socialization process is the correct message. But, because Black women also have to deal with the second socialization message, many come to feel that they have failed in their roles as women. In an effort to correct their mistakes, Black women often choose to enact the aspect of their androgynous role that is decidedly aggressive and/ or independent. They may decide either to "go it alone" or to prod their Black men into becoming Prince Charmings. The first alternative for Black women often results in self-doubt, lowered self-esteem, and, generally, unhappiness and dis- satisfaction. After all, society nurtures the "find a man" message far beyond early socialization. The second message, unfortunately, produces little more than the first message because Black women in such situations usually end up in conflictual relationships with Black men, who also have undergone a rather complicated socialization process²

That explains quite a bit, there. It is the case that Black men are twice as likely to marry interracially than Black women, but that still means that, of those who get married, 76% of married Black men are married to a Black woman, and 88% of married Black women are married to a Black man. Both rates are still below the just over one-third (36%) of Asian newlywed women have a spouse of a different race or ethnicity. 7% of intermarried couples include a black man and a white woman, only 3% include a black woman and a white man (I included that because it surprised me) ³

There are so many factors that go into it, I really could keep going. My point is that marriage rates are unreliable for this cohort, but also we must recognize the myraid factors that influence whether someone enters into a relationship or not. No matter what though, Black women are the least likely marry someone of a different race, and if there is no one available, they might just not marry at all. If that's something they wanted to do in the first place.

Another thing, it must be noted where the concentration of Black people are in the United States. 56% live in the South⁴, and across all US metro areas, the average African American lives in a neighborhood where almost half his neighbors (48 percent) are Black, even though the US population is only 12 percent Black⁴. This follows through to schools, places of employment, places of worship, places of recreation, and friend groups of course. There's an inherent isolation involved. Even still though, at the very least most Black men like Black women, and vice versa. I personally have dated people of several races (White, Asian, a Jewish woman, down here in Texas you can't not have dated a Hispanic woman before). I have a preference, but it's not like a requirement. Here in Austin, we have a small Black population that's getting smaller, 7%, so twice now I've actually dated Black women I met online, on twitter. Going well for me, I'm wifing her up.

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I just find it really strange how many posts on here just basically boil down to ‘some women criticised something online so all women must hate xyz’.

When the overwhelming cultural voice seems to largely agree when it comes to judgement of men, men's interests, men's behaviour, men's problems, it shouldn't be a surprise that they start putting the puzzle pieces together to form a picture which shows that women, as a class of people, broadly hate them for their gender.

Some exceptions apply, hell, maybe it's only a small vocal minority of women saying and promoting these things, but if there's nobody out there shouting "these women are wrong, this is disrespectful, guys have so much potential, let's stop attacking them as a gender" then... well, nobody's going to be aware of any dissenting opinion, are they? They're only going to hear the hardcore feminist rhetoric, see the campaigns for women (often at the expense of men), and so on. What reason would they have to believe that women don't hate them and want to stamp them down?

[–]MidoriEgg 8 points9 points10 points 2 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

It’s not nice having your interests judged.

As I teenage girl in the 2010’s, I know from first hand since everything that teenage girls like was seen as stupid, superficial and dumb. Like remember how hated Twilight was, ‘still a better love story than twilight’ is still a meme. And Justin Beiber? I remember there was like a million FB groups about how dumb his fans where. Kardashians, TOWIE etc where all seen as shows for idiots. Dumb entertainment for men (like the latest Michael Bay movie) was never under such scrutiny or derision. In TV shows and movies, hyper feminine characters (like blonde, wears pink, and makeup) where always negative, either dumb blonde or an alpha bitch, and the cool girl had more masculine hobbies and ate pizza was one of the boys.

I don’t remember seeing a single boy defending hyper feminine women’s interests nor would I expect them to.

I also didn’t interpret this to mean men hated women as a whole. Things are rarely so black and white.

I’ve seen men on here say women shouldn’t have the right to vote, I’ve seen men say that women are too dumb to chose their own partners.

But I understand men are not hivemind. I’m not so sensitive to think ‘all men hate women’ based on a few people. I don’t even think all men who are direspect women hate them. People are more complicated than that, and I’m not interested in acting like a victim.

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Sure, I made it up, because as we all know, media that teenage girls like(d), such as Twilight, Justin Beiber, boy bands, Barbie (pre movie), princesses, selfies, tiktok dancing, wearing makeup is all held in such high regard and not at all seen as superficial or stupid, and hyper feminine women are never consistently portrayed as either dumb or alpha mean girls.

And of course, boys bullying girls never happens because every boy in high school views ever one of his female peers as a potential girlfriend. And boys are always nice to girls who’s attention they want.

And yes, you’re completely right, bullying is completely illegal in every single western country and this law is always enforced.

Everything you’ve said is extremely logical and true to life, it isn’t at all indicative of living in your own bubble and not being able to perceive any struggle that isn’t your own.

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I don’t remember seeing a single boy defending hyper feminine women’s interests nor would I expect them to.

I mean... why would they? I don't remember any girls defending my interests as a kid/teenager, why should it be expected that I'd stand up for theirs? School/teenage years are just like that, whether we like it or not. People take the piss, they try to climb the social hierarchy, they try to make a name for themselves. Girls did it just as much as boys.

What am I, the class nerd (at the time), going to say to the class bitch who's shitting on some other girl for liking something dumb, when I'm just as likely to get bullied for speaking out as she is to get bullied for what she likes? I have no more - perhaps less, even - social currency than she does. In my experience she wouldn't even likely have befriended me for it if I had, so what would be the point? Now two people get bullied instead of one and they don't even find solace/friendship in each other.

If I stood up for those things when guys were the ones talking shit, my masculinity would've been even further questioned, if that were possible, I'd just be cementing myself as the least give-a-shit-about-able kid in school. It wouldn't have achieved anything, except giving them more ammo to fuck with me.

Having said all that, I don't even recall girls being targeted like that. Perhaps I was too wrapped up in my own bullying to notice, but I don't recall a single instance of girls getting made fun of for their interests. Didn't seem to me like anybody actually cared.

[–]MidoriEgg 3 points4 points5 points 2 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

You literally quoted my ‘nor would I expect them to’ (defend women’s interest) then typed up a whole reply about why I shouldn’t expect men to defend mens interests. Why?

I only brought up that I hadn’t seen men defending women’s interest because you got angry about women not defending men.

I don’t blame you for not recalling how feminine interests are demonised because it wasn’t targeted at you, and it’s so accepted that it isn’t really seen as an issue. But think of anything that girls, particularly teenage girls really like (my examples are twilight/Justin Beiber, boy bands in general, reality shows, cloths shopping even Barbie) are all seen as shallow and superficial and dumb. They are placed under a higher level of scrutiny than action films or other boys interests. It isn’t a massive issue, but we’re all in our own bubble.

My original point was that pretty much every interest or hobby gets judged, you can sit around getting mad and think it means the world hates you or you could realise it’s not that big a deal.

[–]bottleblankMan, AutoModerator really sucks, huh? 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

You literally quoted my ‘nor would I expect them to’ (defend women’s interest) then typed up a whole reply about why I shouldn’t expect men to defend mens interests. Why?

I did, yes, because "nor would I expect them to" didn't really seem to grasping the issue, at least in the context of what I'd said before. I acknowledge that you said those words and I also acknowledge that you said that you don't think men are a hivemind as a result, but the point of my earlier comment was that being judged unfairly, on gender lines, from so many different angles and to such a great extent, is causing men some quite serious issues.

Frankly I think it was trivialising to compare it to liking Twilight when other people thought it was stupid, but I went with it because, OK, fair, being bullied for anything isn't great. I agree. I admit I was also very vague in explaining what those things are for men. But I'm talking about far worse than that. Things which, if they happened to women, feminists would be burning down the gates to stop.

So when you said what you said regarding the solution (ie: to stand up against it), I connected that with the issues I was talking about, the issues I said people should stand up against (the demonisation and devaluation of men, to the point where it can cause severe identity/existential crisis). When you look there, you see women (and men) standing up for women's issues. Which is fine. Except nobody does that for men.

I replied in the context of your points about interests and hobbies, but with the framing of the problematic treatment and depiction of men in society, so I accept that may have been confusing. In that context, however, it is expected that people stand up for women, as mentioned above, but not for men. So the obvious solution is to stand up for and support men in the same way. Which you acknowledged but then dismissed with "nor would I expect them to".

Hence my response: I couldn't stand up for that at school because of my standing and I can't stand up to it now for the same reasons. I have no power. But the other side does. If I speak up, I get called out for it and my reputation is further damaged.

tl;dr: The conversation became muddled because you, essentially, changed the subject.

[–]MidoriEgg 6 points7 points8 points 2 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I haven’t changed the subject. The original post is about how men are demonised for their common interests (video games, sports). I pointed out how every hobby/interest has its critics, and feminine issues are specifically seen as dumb/useless, but that doesn’t mean all men hate women and their interests.

I’m not denying there are some corners of society than demonise men (and that is an issue) but you’ve said that you think it’s logical to think that ‘women as a broader class hate men for their gender’. So I’m pointing out women are also judged for their interests, there are also sects of society (some of them in Government) that view women as inherintly stupid and deceitful and in some cases wanted to limit their rights , but I am still able to understand, as any reasonable person should, that not all men think that and not all men hate us.

You will get a lot more productive discussions without hyperbole.

[–]Atlasatlastatleast 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Your arguments are very reasonable. I’m wondering why (mostly the people you’re arguing with) everyone sees it as “only one group is demonized” as opposed to “our society harms many people in various ways. One of ways it harms men is blank, a women are affected by blank.”

I totally remember Justin Bieber being uncool, people loving bedazzling but it also be clowned on at the same time, and other ways lots of things girls liked were demonized. Though some of it seems self-generated, like teenage girls really are so fucked up to each other sometime, it’s impossible to deny media influence. There are some parallels as well, but not worth getting into.

As has been established by many, Western Capitalist cisheteropatriatchy as a system has resulted in an elite class of men of some women becoming successful, with many other men and everyone else falling either victim to it, or put into a role of perceived power without having any. As the feminist movement progressed over the last 60 years, some of the tide has turned (but by no means all) which has left some men feeling like they never had power (and many didn’t), an upheaval of some hypermasculine aspects of society, lots of people feeling like they just missed the bus, and some women feeling like they’ve just caught up to the bus and it’s their turn to drive, and some falling victim to those left in the wake of the aforementioned.

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I haven’t changed the subject. The original post is about how men are demonised for their common interests (video games, sports). I pointed out how every hobby/interest has its critics, and feminine issues are specifically seen as dumb/useless, but that doesn’t mean all men hate women and their interests.

Yes, but what I was saying, as I tried to explain, is that this goes much deeper than that. It's not just about "men's hobbies are stupid", it's almost all aspects of masculinity or being male that are considered negatives, coming from everywhere, be that educational, institutional/governmental/legally, charity, or corporate interests.

It's not "some corners", it's damn near everywhere, that's the problem. As I said to the other response to you here, there's help, support, and encouragement for women now, in ways that men don't have (and arguably never have had).

Saying "yes but women's interests are considered trivial silly wastes of time too" doesn't cover the whole story, it singles out one specific element and makes it seem like there's no other problem, it's just a shared and equal issue with other people thinking each other's hobbies are dumb. But that doesn't explain the myriad other issues; the poor educational outcomes for men, the suicide rate, and so on. Quite clearly there's a lot more at play than just "video games are stupid".

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Except when that's depicted in media that context is lost and men who aren't in a relationship begin to get the impression that the things they enjoy and care about are alien to women, unwanted, childish, dismissed, even hated. The message becomes "men have shit hobbies and are too stupid to care about women properly".

Also, regarding video games, it's often implied (or outright said out loud) around here that the men who are struggling to get relationships would find their lives a lot less meaningless if they "got off the couch and stopped playing video games". Again, with disregard for context, no nuance, the message becomes "the things that you enjoy are shit and if you stopped liking them then women would like you".

The term "manchild" doesn't exist out of nowhere. It's a judgement on those men's hobbies and interests.

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IMO, men who are crazy about football are walking red flags.

Top comment:

Essentially, having stuff you're passionate about is fine (and IMO a very human and good thing) but taking it too far to the point that you disregard everyone else around you is gross.

It's most noticeable with football as it's by far the most common obsession for many men. Screaming/throwing things/etc. is behaviour you'd associate with a toddler, not a grown adult.

Not quite to the extreme you've described, but I've seen a lot of stuff making light of how during the world cup it's expected that men will just completely ignore their partner and family and that's just normal and should be accepted apparently?

It's fine to like sports, but if you're throwing shit, grow up.

Anyone else glad football season is over after today?

Top comment:

I'm a girls sports coach. Numerous times we've had events the same day as NFL games. Every time we get emails from moms asking if we'll have a TV set up with "the big game on". Dad's straight up refuse to go to their child's event, unless they can still watch their game... It makes me so sad every time.

It's fine to like sports, but if you're skipping your children's lives to watch games, grow up.

Not quite the oppression you're imagining.

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It's not about the anger it's about men.

We're constantly being shit on in the west and most of us are seriously tired of it.

Most of us can't avoid it unless you're top alpha sigma dog male with God tier genes. Even then you'll still get hate of course simply because you're a man but it's definitely less.

No one WANTS to be angry, but we do want to be heard in which we just aren't. Our problems don't exist and if by God a miracle happens and a woman admits to an issue we have, were told we need to suck it up and figure it out ourselves even tho men were a part of every social movement including feminism. So why are we told we have no problems or to do it ourselves? Why are we constantly belittled and attacked simply for being men and existing? Because society told you the big bad wolf is men and it's acceptable to hate us and not every other group on the planet.

It is anger, but it's not about the anger.

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Uh plenty? Not a single person wants women to "suffer" we just want to be equal which we definitely aren't.

I'll just give a small list

Judicial system is HEAVILY rigged against men Including family court. Allimony is also heavily rigged and men get screwed out of their assets even if they were earned before the woman entered his life OR even if the woman doesn't do a single thing ie. Work or take care of kids she still gets his shit

Drafts are still only for men, we have no bodily autonomy and at any point can be FORCED into basically suicide.

We have no bodily autonomy, we can't get away with killing our unborn children because that's murder but we also can't just not pay child support even when we clearly can't afford it or aren't ready for parenthood

The social movement of feminism while necessary has become such a cesspool for man hate that it's become unnecessary. Neofeminism is a plague on society and until we stop being okay with shitting on men we won't stop fighting for it.

Women aren't gonna hurt themselves by helping men are you psycho?

You're literally what's wrong with society and if you can't see that you need help.

Men and women both face issues systemically and societally but to completely disregard one over the other is disgusting.

Also why should I spend all my time money and resources moving across the world when I can stay where I was born and raised? I would move there and still fight for men's rights here because men are constantly the brunt of everything. Why don't women hop off their high horse and see reality for what it is? That's free

Now if I want to directly blame women, let's talk about how women are more likely to be a sole abuser in domestic violence cases

Let's talk about what YOU just did which most females also do, disregard belittle and ignore issues men as a whole face and tell them it doesn't exist.

Let's talk about body positivity, women can't be shamed or ridiculed for their bodies or you're a POS but men? Ahh who cares tiny dick energy, fat boy, ugly virgin etc.

You think women have it hard in the west? Why? What cant you do?

Because in reality right here right now men are worse off.

We don't go through education as frequently as women but there's no quota on that right?

We die more frequently on the job site but there's no urge for saving them?

Or the mental health pandemic that just keeps getting worse and men committing suicide at alarming rates, but we don't talk about that?

There's a lack of men in plenty of job positions but we don't talk about that? No quotas for men right?

Stop being a terrible hypocritical person for 5 minutes and pay attention to the world around you. Men are getting screwed over and everyone else including women are perfectly fine with that.

Now tell me that we don't have any problems😘

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Judicial system is HEAVILY rigged against men Including family court. Allimony is also heavily rigged and men get screwed out of their assets even if they were earned before the woman entered his life OR even if the woman doesn't do a single thing ie. Work or take care of kids she still gets his shit

See also lighter sentences when women commit crimes compared to men who commit the same crimes.

We have no bodily autonomy, we can't get away with killing our unborn children because that's murder but we also can't just not pay child support even when we clearly can't afford it or aren't ready for parenthood

See also male circumcision, despite massive campaigns talking about how it's absolutely brutal and inhumane that women somewhere in the world are experiencing genital mutilation.

We don't go through education as frequently as women but there's no quota on that right?

Graph showing that the education system got tilted in the UK in the mid-80s when they changed the school leaving exams from O-Levels to GCSEs. Not even just post-secondary/high-school education (college, university), but from the beginning, before you can even leave mandatory schooling, as a teenager, when your expectations of life are being set.

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Why do you think men and women aren’t equal? Just because we aren’t genetically the same doesn’t mean we both don’t deserve to have the freedom to decide what we want to do with our lives and who we are willing to spend our time with.

As far as issues with custody and support are concerned; women sacrifice their time, body and career opportunities to carry and give birth as well as to support men so men can grow their career faster. In return men make up for the labor and sacrifices of women with money. It makes it fair. Men are the ones who don’t want women included in the draft, most women either support women being drafted or support there not being a draft for anyone at all so this whole women shouldn’t be drafted is something traditional men push for not women. When it comes to having a higher suicide rate it’s because men use more deadly force like guns and women use pills which is easier to be saved from. More women attempt suicide but more men succeed. We should encourage both men and women to get the help they need by making medical care more affordable; again it’s not women’s fault! Also if men wanted teaching or nursing jobs they would apply for them but men see it as women’s work and belittle those professions. No one is stopping men from going into female dominated careers; if you want to go ahead more power to you.

It’s baffling why men complain that women in the west aren’t good enough but will not take charge and do something about it like move to the east to get what they think they want and deserve. Trying to make women change in the west is not going to happen due to freewill just like men will not change. The only difference is men are more likely to break laws by trying to physically force women to do something they don’t want to do rather than just moving on like women do. All that talk about men going their own way and passport bros but men don’t act on it. They talk the talk but don’t walk the walk. Over all it’s like hating your job but being unwillingly to change companies because you think the company should revolve its policies around your wants because you’re that special. That line of thinking is a losing battle and you’ll never win so if you care about yourself and value your time you will do what’s in your best interest and stop complaining about things outside of your control and move on. If you really don’t want to move then don’t move and accept your current situation since complaining will only make your life more miserable but hey if you want to be miserable then go ahead men like that are still not going to get the outcome they want.

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Because trying to explain something with someone with such an ignorant take as yours is a waste of time.

If you actually read my previous comment, pretty much all of what you said is completely irrelevant.

Personal attack? Where? Idiot who's sick and needs help? That just seems like reality man get a grip.

The reason men die more is because we don't care about them We don't provide them with resources to help them We don't even bat an eye because they don't matter. We don't even have domestic violence shelters because we simply don't fucking matter.

Therapy is gyno centric, it doesn't help men almost at all so saying to just get them treatment does nothing.

Your "opinion" on the draft is also incorrect. While yes many call for the draft to simply not exist. We have had MANY petitions started BY WOMEN to enable them to be in the draft FOR EQUALITY right? I agree I don't want anyone being drafted least of all incapable women and men however your argument is just simply incorrect.

Again trying to change your mind when you're clearly just too ignorant and bigoted to understand that men are suffering is a waste of breath. But I do hope you at least slightly understand that men aren't doing too hot.

This isn't to say women still don't fight battles but it's so very fucking clear it's less than men at the moment and the fact that no one gives a damn about these men is what upsets me.

Lives ruined because we couldn't say sorry this has gone too far.

Men shouldn't have to up and leave their lives because women in the west are absolutely disgusting. That's simply because that's not how it was before, the only reason women are so gross mentally as of late in the west is because we brainwashed them with neofeminism bullshit. Why do I have to suffer because women are becoming more and more pieces of shit?

Male abuse is on the rise with more women being sole abusers than men. Lesbian marriages are the least likely to last etc.

That's not on men, that's women's mentality and them slowly crumbling over all these false pretenses they've been fed since birth.

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Japans issue is with its work culture. Young people especially are overworked and mistreated at work to the point they die from suicide or health problems. It’s called Karoshi. If the youth are being forced by their employers to work all the time for a small salary just to barely survive how are they supposed to have the time to date, marry or have kids and better yet how can they afford kids if they struggle to support themselves?

The economy, job market and housing market have to change first before young people can have the time or money to have kids. It is cruel to bring a child into this world just so they can suffer in poverty and become a wage slave that will more than likely stay in poverty till the day they die.

Good news is that ai can help us fix the underemployment problem since jobs that are dangerous, psychologically taxing and low paid can be done by ai where as high paying, respectable and mentally stimulating/rewarding jobs can be done by the few humans left. We don’t need to keep making more and more we need to be sustainable and have a society we’re everyone can live a great life. Sure reward those who do exceptional work but don’t punish everyone else with poverty which is what happens in our current society.

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I know you have to know that a common depiction of men in the UK is lazy, feckless, ignorant football fan, perhaps misogynistic or at the very least too simple to respect women, glued to the TV, feet up on the table, can of lager in hand, and oblivious to the world when a match is on, whilst his partner is doing chores or trying to get him to respond with anything other than "I'm trying to watch the match".

Or the male partner she laments spending so much time in the pub or at the match in person, probably with his mates, also watching football, ladding it up in a way she thinks is an inappropriate, childish, irresponsible waste of time and money.

That's before you even get to the stereotype of violent male football fans, who won't think twice about smashing each other's (and everybody else's) brains in for the sake of their team colours, who may also be portrayed as wife-beaters.

Or the recent EE campaign when the women's football was on, in which men were portrayed as ignorant, threatening, dangerous misogynists, using phrases like "Tackling Sexist Hate: Not Her Problem" and pointing out specific actions like "sending death threats".

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men are in general more obsessed with anything they do and women often times have issues with that cause they arent as "autistic" in the same way. You have guys study chess for 12 hours a day trying to become world champion, most women would never ever consider that. you also have guys playing competitive video games for 12 hours a day for years on end trying to make it as a pro, most women would never even try to attempt something like that. On the other hand if you do become great and make millions in your endeavour then they will want to be with you. Its risky being a man in general you could have thousands of beautiful women want to be with you cause you are a famous video game player, artist, singer, chess player, boxer etc. but at the same time you could have 0 women want to be with you cause you spend years or decades trying to make it playing video games or learning an instrument for 12 hours a day but you never made it. Essentially 2 men can spend thousands of hours doing the exact same thing but who is the winner at the end decides who the women want to be with.

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I uh, so I'm a woman and I don't demonize men who aren't obsessed with women...but with that said:

Look, I think anyone super like obsessively into sports is a lunatic. Yes, I would criticize you, but that's not because you aren't obsessed with women. I think being obsessed with sports is as dumb as being obsessed with women. Women have nothing to do with it really.

In terms of video games, the only reason I would make criticism of someone obsessed with video games beyond say generic addictive tendencies, is if one of two factors is met: 1. They are in a relationship with a woman and are ignoring their adult responsibilities or their relationship/intimacy responsibilities to that woman. OR if they are upset they are unable to obtain the sort of relationship with women that they want. In the former case, my criticism isn't based on their lack of obsession with women, it's based on them being a shitty partner. In the latter case, my criticism isn't based on their lack of obsession with women, it's based on them kind of being a bad sales-man who I'm trying to help become a better sales-man.

Porn includes women (typically) so, it's kind of hard to argue you aren't obsessed with women if you're watching lots of porn. And porn has a lot of issues, so it's worth at least some criticism surely.

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What’s weird about it…the statement was women don’t demonize men that don’t demonize them regarding dating female nature…I simply pointed out a powerful example where this is not the case…your point regarding women’s funding of mental health is relevant but it misses the mark…the issue isn’t women’s (and I’m focusing of feminists in particular) attitudes towards mental health in general…It’s women’s attitudes towards men’s mental health issues….if you want to generalize my point, it’s that there is a feminist narrative now that they don’t shouldn’t care about men’s problems….that women have bore the brunt of the emotional issues and that they now leave it to men to deal with their problems…not only do I think that this narrative is untrue in many cases but I find it to be destructive…I find this narrative to remove any moral imperative women may have….we have a UNIVERSAL duty as a society to solve the problems that face us…just like I should deal with women’s health issues because my neighbors, mother, daughter, sisters are women, women should reciprocate…they have fathers brothers neighbors that are part to their community….this obsession with gender in how we treat people in our society nonsense and idiotic

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Oh that’s easy…because feminist narratives are focused on a mysterious cabal of men (which they call the patriarchy) as the object of their oppression…the feminist narrative is that women have had to toil with the emotional support for men and so no more…it’s a feminist narrative that focuses on NOT CARING for other human beings to free yourself from oppression…in other words, freedom is being free from a moral imperative…I find this narrative to be destructive

Actually you in your analogy, you commit precisely the cardinal sin Im complaining about…you are analogizing social and mental issues that effect pollution (corresponding to issues that effect women) to issues that effect animal welfare (corresponding to issues that effect men)…in other words you are saying that social issues that effect men and women are different issues entirely with our moral imperatives toward solving the issue being segregated based on gender….that’s just asenine…so if men are being robbed at gun point in Newark, that’s an issue that I should deal with but if women are being robbed at gun point in LA well fuck them their women, I don’t have to care….

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I am talking about feminist….look I’m not absolving men from responsibility l, get off your high horse…however this idea that it’s a problem with a particular identity group and therefore nobody else in society should not care about it is ridiculous…you are making it so that whether you recognize someone’s humanity is dependent on whether they identify with your identity group…it’s fucking madness…look those individual’s have personal responsibility…men need to look at what’s going on too…it’s not like I’m trying to lay the problem at women’s feet..:but this idea that if the involves men, women shouldn’t give a fuck or if a problem involves women men shouldn’t give a fuck is lunacy…we are part of society, men and women….we have to help each other and not treat each other like enemies

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Problems women face: “society must address it now! 😭”

Problems men face: “Waah. Cry more man child! Fix it yourself. Teehee. 💅”

SOME problems men face MIGHT involve larger social dynamics! For instance, if boys are struggling in education settings -- really struggling in school, basically -- that might merit a social response. It might merit a bunch of collective action.

The OP was about sitting around watching sports, playing video games, watching porn. Basically just consuming entertainment all day, not doing much. Those don't feel like social problems to solve (maybe pass regulations to prohibit some of those behaviors). By and large, feels like something for men to go pull themselves up and solve for themselves.

Put differently, if women were sitting around with most of their day binge watching reality shows and using vibrators watching James Deen porn and then consequently suffering collectively because of it, I'd agree men probably don't have any responsibilities to do anything here.

[–]neinhaltchadRed Pill Man 12 points13 points14 points 2 years ago* (7 children) | Copy Link

Those are all self medications resulting in various societal, institutional and cultural issues that negatively affect men that are well documented.

Men aren’t withdrawing from sex, relationships and social life in general out of thin air. They are being told they are obsolete, useless and “toxic” every single day from every direction and are damn near driven into those existences. Don’t be obtuse.

Are you seriously going to argue that there are not countless “outreach” and assistance initiatives aimed specifically at women by governmental and corporate institutions?

Put it this way, which of these do you think western society gives more attention to:

Women’s insecurity and anxiety over their appearance.
Men’s 4-5x higher suicide rate.

If you’re honest, one is treated damn near like a “public health crisis” while the other is basically not acknowledged outside of a few manosphere ghettos.

[–]dmatthews021120 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Kind of a bait and switch here though. Men are surely collectively struggling, SOME aspects of which are public health problems and ought to get social and collective solutions.

Men who are obsessed with sports, video games, porn MIGHT BE symptomatic of those larger problems but PROBABLY are often just men making bad choices. But OK! Some amount of male 'lazy degeneracy' might be downstream of larger social problems and some might be the result of bad individual choices; we can debate where the line is drawn.

But why does any of this confer unique burdens on women to solve? Solutions either involve a kind of social solidarity that involves all of us collectively, or need men to get their shit together.

I don't see why any of this requires unique focus on women or why we as men, as male advocates, need to sit around and scrutinize women in response to our collective woes.

[–]neinhaltchadRed Pill Man 8 points9 points10 points 2 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

Answer this question: why is any and every issue faced “by women” deemed a “societal problem” and largely expected to either be addressed by societal at large or often by men in particular?

Example: “women in tech”

Government sponsored programs and corporate D&I reporting were instituted en masse to solve this “problem” often with a focus on fixing the “boys club mentality” and “rampant misogyny” that was purportedly preventing women from flocking to become programmers.

I don’t recall anybody throwing up their hands saying “well, women just prefer to be nurses and secretaries. If they want change they should look inward and work harder and fix it themselves”

Example 2: “Breast cancer awareness month”

Every male sports team breaks out pinks shoes, bats, headbands, etc.

Can you show me the women doing the same thing “in support of men” for literally any issue including prostate cancer which kills more every year?

I’ll say it again: anything that predominantly negatively effects women is seen as a “society” problem while anything that predominantly negatively effects men is seen as a “men” problem.

And often it’s blamed on the man himself.

I’m not sure how you can even argue that western society doesn’t bend over backwards for women’s issues at every opportunity.

It belies reality.

[–]dmatthews021120 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

I’m not sure how you can even argue that western society doesn’t bend over backwards for women’s issues at every opportunity.

OK? Maybe! Feels very bait and switched again.

OP: men are demonized for pursuing hobbies like sports, video games and porn

Me: no

You: women are receiving too many social benefits and attention

Me: ???

---

Are you trying to say men need collective help escaping porn, sports and video games -- the way like a lot of female health issues like breast cancer garners a lot of collective social action? Just make a clear argument for me. Because I can't agree to that. It feels like these are just loser men behaviors, and that men just need to do better if indulging in this stuff is limiting their romantic pursuits or whatrever.

If you're instead argument that men have struggles unrelated to porn, sports watching and video games - I'm listening. I named one: boys struggling in education settings. I'll name another: men getting involved in crime and getting sent to prison (far more than women), and those social ills perhaps merit a lot of gender-specific collective social action tailorized and specifically designed for men. I'm on board with that! Maybe!

But what I'm reading is like -- just a bunch of disjointed RedPill talking points. It reads like: Blah blah blah I read a criticism of male hobbies once, some podcast guests were mean to men, for shame, let's cut breast cancer funding to retaliate, or something?

Make it make sense. Make it coherent.

[–]neinhaltchadRed Pill Man 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

OK? Maybe! Feels very bait and switched again.

There’s no bait and switch.

The point is that men’s self medicating behavior for their own deeper existential issues (porn, video games) is laid at their feet as a character flaw (ie op’s point) and they are called losers and pathetic but in contrast women’s self inflicted issues (social media addiction, attention seeking, cutting) are deemed to be “an issue that men are largely responsible for, society must fix and they are called “victims” and shown sympathy at every turn.

This contrast illustrates the fact that men exhibiting behavior resulting from negative feelings and social conditions is demonized in contrast to women doing the same thing

Are you trying to say men need collective help escaping porn, sports and video games -- the way like a lot of female health issues like breast cancer garners a lot of collective social action?

Move on from cancer and do “not enough women in tech” , “body positivity”, “rape culture”, eating disorders, anxiety and negative self image due to social media and self harm behaviors like cutting.

Maybe throw in sexist air conditioners while we’re at it.

Are you honestly going to claim there haven’t been policy initiatives, corporate mandates and “awareness campaigns” ad nauseum for those issues?

Just make a clear argument for me. Because I can't agree to that.

Here: Men’s self limiting behaviors are portrayed by western society as evidence of low character or weakness of the individual (up to and including suicide)

You cannot illustrate this without contrasting this with the starkly different way women’s issues are portrayed: Women’s self limiting / self defeating behaviors are actually not their own fault and instead are societies responsibility to fix.

these are just loser men behaviors, and that men just need to do better if indulging in this stuff is limiting their romantic pursuits or whatrever.

Yeah, thanks for proving the entire point with this asinine statement as always seems to happen in discussions that require a shred of empathy for men.

Anyway, this is not a good faith exchange anymore so conversation over.

[–]Appropriate-Ad-8030 7 points8 points9 points 2 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]dmatthews021120 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Appropriate-Ad-8030 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]ParkiiHealerOfWorlds 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I think you're misunderstanding what "caring" looks like, and a specific group vs an individual. I'm a feminist, I support women's rights and equality. I'm also a human who loves the men around me, my friends and family.

If there's a pro-women's mental health bill, sure, as a feminist, I'd support that. I'd wish it was more inclusive, but I understand that sometimes a narrow thing is easier to tackle.

If there's a pro-men's mental health bill, I'm not going to support that as a feminist, I'm going to support that as a human who has men in my life that I love... While also wishing it was more inclusive, but understanding that sometimes a narrow thing is easier to tackle.

It's not a matter of feminists "not caring", it's a matter of that issue not falling under the purpose of that movement. I support lots of movements, and sometimes their needs intersect, and sometimes they have their own individual needs. But I still care about them all.

[–]Appropriate-Ad-8030 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]ParkiiHealerOfWorlds 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I think what you're seeing is men complaining about an issue, gesturing broadly at society being "the problem", and then saying "Society doesn't care, feminists and women don't care, no one cares to fix this."

And feminists, deep in the work of tracking down WHAT societal issues cause problems we face, doing the research, doing the awareness campaigns, doing the writing of legislation, lobbying people in power, etc... are unsure of how to hear this other than, "You have a nice things, I want a nice thing, you should get me the nice thing. Imma sit here and call you an uncaring bitch til you get me the nice thing like what you just got yourself." So you see pushback.

What do guys expect women to do when they say we don't care? Do you just want us to tell you it's a problem and we're sorry you're dealing with it? You said you don't expect us to put men's issues under a Feminist platform, so what do you want from us? Specifically.

Additionally, some people suck. Some people don't care about people they don't identify with. That's pretty universal, it isn't unique to men or women. Ignore the haters and look for the supportive people. Or argue with the hater in the hopes you can turn them around, but don't let them get to you.

I've had to leave certain male centric spaces cuz they were toxic cesspools that were coloring my view of men. I'm sure you don't want me to judge men as a whole based on those dudes. And guys like that are allllll over, not just concentrated in a couple niche places. But that isn't all men. Some women are gonna suck, don't let them get to you, don't let them color your entire view of women or feminists. Just tell yourself you're talking to an asshole and move on.

[–]Leeola_Mcgillicuddy 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

I think the attitude should be that men don't need to blame their own behavioral problems on women, and think that women should be held responsible for problems that often stem from porn addiction, gaming addiction and lack of ambition for males. Especially when the addicts don't want to give up those addictions when they have been told over and over that they are unhealthy.

I think that women are doing their jobs in calling out the problems of porn addiction, gaming addictions and refusal to be an active participant in life in any domestic situation with a male like this. Women that live with males like this in the home rather it be brothers, boyfriends, fathers , uncles, sons etc.

The problem seems to be that women get attacked for mentioning these things as problems in the first place. Then when the male who doesn't want to stop the addiction is pressured to, they can't cope with that and will use the mental issue as an excuse to keep getting away with being too lazy to fix it , or too far gone to fix it. Or try to say it's misandrist to try and take away their addictions and blame them for having them.

People in general will grow weary of this and just monitor (in whatever ways are most effective) males who are this way to make sure they don't commit a terrorist crime before they go to their eternal sleep.

So separation may be good for women in this way. Since women seem to be getting demonized for even bringing up the problems in the first place.

[–]Appropriate-Ad-8030 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Leeola_Mcgillicuddy 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I advocate for separating women and even other vulnerable individuals from dangerous behaviors by mentally ill men. Whenever that becomes apparent , separation is the best immediate protection. Because as demonstrated by some depressed males they will not only suicide, but murder suicide.

Women are also separated from their children when they become dangerous to them due to mental illness. People are even now advocating for separation of them and their children if they become dangerous to the children.

Now as far as in a social scope. Women need to be separate from the men with these dangerous mental issues except for in a professional sense. As in being workers in mental health professions . Men can as well. However, if it came down to a physical altercation between a man and another man in a dangerous mental state he would stand a better chance of protecting himself.

[–]Appropriate-Ad-8030 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Appropriate-Ad-8030 5 points6 points7 points 2 years ago (16 children) | Copy Link

[–]dmatthews021120 6 points7 points8 points 2 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]Appropriate-Ad-8030 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]LetsDOOT_THIS 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]dmatthews021120 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

I think men largely need to take almost all the first steps to escape 'loser' behaviors (sitting around fapping to porn and playing video games all day).

As for the antecedents (why are men boring layabouts without much ambition) and consequents (men are useless, how do we make them more socially useful now that they're detoxing from porn and video games) -- I agree that feels more appropriately collective in nature and would involve all of us.

To lay my cards on the table, a lot of the "women are too shrill, complaining about video game porn and sport habits" complaining -- what a lot of men have in mind are like state-funded blowjobs to make these sad men feel better, or something, or like weird state enforced arranged marriage fantasies so that a woman is forced to live with them and sit nearby and give them head-pats while they do boss fights or some shit. I want to be very clear women don't really have any role or obligation solving *that* for men.

[–]LetsDOOT_THIS 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]dmatthews021120 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

ok so you agree that this is a societal issue that both genders have responsibility for because both groups combined are the totality of society.

Sure. But then no one needs to direct their negative or mental energies and thoughts to 'women' because women aren't really uniquely or especially involved. The OP is very into "women demonize men for their bad habits!" mindset, which feels revealing. Why is he taking a shared responsibility all humans have to care for each other and fixating on womens' roles here?

This is a rhetorical question. I have my answer. Underlying the OP's point is transparently some level of intersexual dynamic frustration -- he's not getting love, or sex, or affection, or some mix of things he expects. Or he thinks collectively, women aren't doing their part to support men through their struggles. But in this case, it's on us bro! Stop fapping. Put down the controller. We don't need our moms and wives and girlfriends to babysit us my dude.

[–]Aromatic_Ad5473Pills are dumb. Woman. 3 points4 points5 points 2 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Aromatic_Ad5473Pills are dumb. Woman. 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Aromatic_Ad5473Pills are dumb. Woman. 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Appropriate-Ad-8030 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Well what to do about it is a good question…and if men are resistant to it, well that something men need to deal with…Also is therapy really going to help these men…I don’t know, I’d like to hear more ideas about what a solution would look like…unfortunately, I don’t have a background in mental health and certainly these individuals bear some responsibility for getting their lives together

However, we aren’t talking about how to solve the issue…my point is that our moral obligations (whatever those may be) to one another are independent of gender…if we segregate moral imperatives in accordance to gender our society is not going to function appropriately…men have to care about women and women have to care about men and having our morality be dependent on gender is going to rip our society apart…

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[–]dmatthews021120 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago* (25 children) | Copy Link

Because that is normalized. Men being called "pigs" in disney films is not condemned, for example.

Sincere question: in what Disney film are men called pigs? Like, maybe Beauty and the Beast or something? I don't remember the gag and I'm not an expert nor am I going to go find a script or rewatch, but I remember a gag where Gaston ends up in a mud puddle with a pig.

I think that's pretty clearly a commentary about Gaston and not necessarily like 'men.' But maybe it is?

Big picture though. The argument you're making is: men are demonized because children's movies have some lines in their scripts that are misandrist, and you don't see enough criticism of that? Seems a little specious. For instance, I dunno, I don't think about Disney movies that much. What about the world outside of animation? Do we have some evidence of women criticizing men for being too into sportsball and games OUTSIDE of a preemptive assumption about men's dating struggles?

That is to say, what I see...

Some men: I want pussy! Love me.

Some women: play less videos games and watch less porn

I have never ever seen:

Some men: <silence>

Some women: play less videos games and watch less porn

--------------

The whole "stop indulging in porn sports and video games" trope is in response to an explicit or implicit demand of female attention and affection, never just in isolation. But maybe! Willing to listen. Just vague references to Disney movies doesn't feel sufficiently compelling.

[–]Song_of_Pain 6 points7 points8 points 2 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

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[–]dmatthews021120 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

Alot of these complaints feel pretty 'exception to the rule' though.

*"You'll meet some guys who are like this"

*"there are some threads over here on this platform"

*"some girls on a podcast"

My brothers in Christ, there are 7 billion people on this planet and we all have phones and internet connections, and cities are full of everything. Someone, somewhere is saying something controversial. Half of "these threads over here on social media" and "these girls on a podcast" are people consciously and intentionally edgelording for attention and engagement.

These just don't feel very representative, even if they exist. Sportsball, video games and porn are some of the absolute biggest industries around, generating tons of media coverage and shit, and men are MOSTLY the consumers of this stuff and their popularity themselves necessarily attracts some critics. But the notion that men are being shamed out of these hobbies -- that they are 'demonized' by scoldy women simply beggars belief. Again, I don't doubt someone somewhere demonizes men for this stuff, but the criticism is so niche and facile that I don't understand why anyone would care. Look around. These are popular shit. No one is paying attention to the critics insofar as if people want to enjoy sports, porn and video games that there's any real social norm stopping them.

I'm going to again draw a harsh line here and reiterate though that once men start complaining about their dating and relationship struggles, their hobbies can rightfully come under scrutiny and sitting around playing video games and fapping to pornhub are absolutely repulsive to women and rightfully so. This last paragraph here does not contradict in any way the ones before it.

tl;dr:

*men are largely free to pursue their video game, sports, and porn interests unperturbed by society

*men will absolutely and righteously run into pushback about how they spend their time once they start expecting something out of women

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Men who live that lifestyle alone are usually happy right? I can see why women don't want a lazy, gamer type loser. But I will admit that I find it cringe when women don't like men who go to the gym and workout . As long as the guy is not using steroids and being abusive, I think women with good mental health see it as discipline and a positive thing for a man to work on himself in this way.

But if he is saying weird misogynistic stuff while doing it, if it becomes clear that he is angry and constantly talking about how he doesn't want women instead of just self improving and keeping the negative stuff to himself, then why would a woman even have a reaction to him? A mouthy misogynistic man who goes on rants will not be liked by women. Rather, they be fit or lazy fat gamer.

Also, if the guy is "not chasing women" and wants to be left alone , I don't see a problem with that. I think women only respond to fit men who work out but continue to say misogynistic stuff or stuff that seems like they still have underlying hate or resentment for women . So women may tell those men that women don't want that. But I don't think most healthy minded women have a problem whatsoever with men who are working on themselves and staying fit and not being a mouthy , preachy misogynist towards women.

Also , I think if a guy told a potential girlfriend or wife that he was career focused and focused on staying fit because it helped him become disciplined and goal oriented, helped him stay healthy mentally and physically, lots of women would find that attractive.

[–]Operator_Diego77 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Believe me, a lot of people who starts in gym/martial arts are heartbroken or simply mentally broken. In my case I started in the way of personal growth bc of pretty hard life experiences, a toxic relationship and a quite big deception. I don't chase women, anf when I tell people that I don't chase'em bc they gotta chase me due to I'm a man that goes to therapy, to the gym, with a 2 degrees, 2 houses and that knows how to fight thus I can offer protection. They laugh at me and they say I'm egoist, selfish, bla bla, bla, all bc I don't wanna be simping. And no, I don't say misogynistic stuff. Certainly you've a lil bit of reason, one girl of my university invited me to her job (she's a waitress) and blinder her eye, the other day she was asking me (again) that If I worked, how old am I etc. So you're partially right, a lot of people (mostly of my family) have laughed at me for not simping and for being in the path of personal development

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Title	Men who are not obsessed with women are also demonized
Author	EuphoricBrightTipper
Upvotes	111
Comments	303
Date	November 10, 2023 4:38 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/17s7xww/men_who_are_not_obsessed_with_women_are_also/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/men-who-are-not-obsessed-with-women-are-also.1238042 https://theredarchive.com/post/1238042

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