does social proofing on attraction show how women have lower levels of free will or independent thought?

badgersonice · 2024-01-24T15:00:57+00:00

Imagine thinking it’s your “feee will” and “independent thought” that causes men to think a tight waist and a wide ass are hot. Lol

Sharp_Engineering379 · 2024-01-24T14:31:54+00:00

Social proof means that a person is likable and safe to spend time with. That's it

If a woman works with two men who both seem interested in her, she's almost certainly going to feel more comfortable with the man who is clearly likable and functional versus the man who becomes a liability the minute she shows him any attention because the friendless man is likely to suffocate her with neediness and jealousy.

I'm quite sure this thread will be filled with men who claim that women started checking him out the minute he had a woman on his arm, but that isn't the case. If he was that thirsty loner before the girlfriend, his coworkers and classmates were avoiding his gaze because thirsty, lonely men interpret every positive expression as an invitation, and every friendly comment as flirting.

Once a loner has a girlfriend or marries, it's safe to smile and be friendly because he won't glom onto her and try to make a romantic relationship out of small talk.

Safinated · 2024-01-24T15:16:22+00:00

Nope

It shows that they mitigate risk and isolation

Realistic-Ad-1023 · 2024-01-24T16:16:48+00:00

I have guy friends who won’t date women because they’re afraid of what their friends will say about her looks. I have girl friends who could not give two shits what you think about her shitty boyfriend, she loves him.

I think this is less a women thing and more a “insecure people care about what other people think waaayy too much” thing.

Electronic-Pool-7458 · 2024-01-24T12:19:56+00:00

I think a significant part of our attraction is involuntary; we "fall" for someone. It depends on chemistry/hormones and is something we can't control.

Since love is uncontrollable, the social aspect matters less. Just look at all the women with partners their friends don't like. If it's a transactional relationship, social proof might be more important, but not in romantic love.

obviousredflag · 2024-01-24T12:24:29+00:00

Mate poaching happens in both sexes. Men also need to find partners with good long term relationship qualities, and not just look for youth and attractiveness, when looking for a woman to build a family with. Other men already having her selected as a good quality long term relationship partner does increase their attractiveness if you look for a LTR.

As long as we are dealing with "many women" and "not all women", i will just throw this in: many men use social proofing and preselection.

It has nothing to do with "free will/independent thought". It is a part of attraction for long term relationships, because it offers information by proxy, which is not attainable in other ways.

wtknight · 2024-01-24T12:56:50+00:00

[permanently deleted]

MistyMaisel · 2024-01-24T16:03:54+00:00

This is purely about safety and indications the dude is a "settling down type".

The idea that caring what others think isn't free will or independence is silly silly. We choose to care what others think clearly. And we are just as capable of choosing not to care what they think if we perceive their reasoning to be flawed. (Romeo and Juliet both knew their parents weren't fans. It wasn't just Romeo.)

If a dude has been vetted as a "good guy" by other women, we are more likely to trust him because we trust each other to be using similar judgement of what that means (he's safe, he isn't abusive, he's not sexually pushy or dangerous, he is willing to commit).

Open sourcing the vetting of safety is often extremely intelligent as decision making goes.

As for attraction. Everyone cares that others find their person at least acceptable. I do not believe men here would have no second thoughts if everyone in their family, social circle, and even strangers told them their girl wasn't good looking. You may still fuck her (that says nothing), you may even stay in a relationship with her (again, not a comment on how attractive she genuinely is), but you would have doubts and probably see her differently.

But, with that said, women are more socially attuned and thus disapproval towards our man from others may bother us more because we're aware that has consequences and ripples. Men are less socially attuned, thus less wounded, and less aware of the consequences and ripples. They're also slightly less reliant on the social fabric, thus they can more often afford to be disagreeable with it.

Cethlinnstooth · 2024-01-24T16:25:00+00:00

All the irredeemably orbiting men claiming they never wished that they had Jessie's Girl. Lol.

https://youtu.be/u2T7wKdQsTo?si=K-uL5MSNhZ5zcijh

New83659 · 2024-01-24T17:09:56+00:00

You can't have it both ways. Women on here will say women aren't all that attracted to looks alone they need to know you have good character traits and social skills too.

But then guys saying that having a gf, which usually indicates that you have some social skills and at least a decent enough character to get this other girl, makes them more attractive. They will also deny this.

According to PPD women, women are all borderline asexual and they will only get turned on based on a thorough and 100% objective assessment of a mans deep inner character.

AceOfSpadesGymBro3 · 2024-01-24T13:15:52+00:00

It's the same argument as a woman who says "How can a man be sexually attracted to a pair of tits or a nice round ass without knowing anything about the person they are attached to? Are men stupid? Are men animals? Are men incapable of using their brains?"

Women cannot understand how male attraction works and you can't understand how female attraction works. So you look at it as a negative, stupid, illogical, emotional, etc.

wtknight · 2024-01-24T12:20:53+00:00

While I don't think that social proofing is extreme as many make it out to be (I'm a married guy who has never gotten as much attention from women as I did when I was single), the idea is that women feel that a man is a "good guy" if other women think so, meaning that they have to do less of the cognitive work themselves to deduce this if other women are doing it for them.

There's also a sense of social prestige dating a man that other women also find attractive.

ullivator · 2024-01-24T13:27:06+00:00

The reverse is true, in the sense that men date women who are more attractive to other men as a form of social status.

However men’s attraction is based on standards that do not require social proofing to establish: youth and beauty.

Women’s attraction is more based on status, some of which can be objective: wealth, education, relative youth, ambition, etc. However status also depends on how others perceive you, so women’s attraction relies on that too.

Tldr: Both sexes want partners who are desirable by the other sex, men’s standards just require less confirmation by others.

apresonly · 2024-01-24T14:50:58+00:00

why would vetting mean you don't have independent thought?

i read reviews before i buy anything and i dont buy something that is poorly reviewed. does that mean i don't have independent thought because i'm unwilling to gamble with my money when its easy to look up info?

CraftyCooler · 2024-01-24T12:22:51+00:00

I don't think that's the case. Majority of women will be like: "she can do much better".

commentasaurus1989 · 2024-01-24T15:29:45+00:00

I studied persuasion for my degree. Everyone is susceptible to unconscious influence. The only way to combat their effects are to study them.

Salt_Mathematician24 · 2024-01-24T21:56:46+00:00

A lot of people have said what I wanted to say but I will also say, women's sexuality has been extremely repressed throughout history so I think in part that plays a role. Male sexual interests are represented everywhere so they're already communicated by our society. Women have to find different ways of communicating and "proofing" theirs whereas society has already done the proofreading for men at a macro level via porn, advertising, art and what have you.

The manosphere's obsession with framing everything women do in the least charitable, flattering and most contemptuous way never fails to amaze me however. No, this doesn't prove that women are less human/intelligent/worthy of rights. Sorry to disappoint you.

WilliamWyattD · 2024-01-25T00:47:20+00:00

'Free Will' and 'independent thought' are huge areas of philosophical debate in general. Plus, at some point one inevitably gets into language and semantics games in such arguments.

The relevant literature strongly suggests that while both genders are impacted by biology and culture/environment, female sexuality is more plastic and influenced by culture and environment than male sexuality. But having a stronger biological component relative to women doesn't necessarily mean men have more 'free will' or 'independent thought'.

namey_9 · 2024-01-25T01:42:52+00:00

free will is an illusion regardless of sex or gender

That__EST · 2024-01-25T10:10:55+00:00

When you really think about it though: why do women need to see other women being attracted to the person they feel attracted to? why is the reverse not true for mens attraction most of the time?

I'd say historically, women have been "protected" through social networks. If you go on and forge a relationship with someone who none of your kin feel like is a good person, and things hit the skids, you're out in the cold.

Green-Quantity1032 · 2024-01-26T00:05:25+00:00

No, but it does help show some men lack deduction skills

RAZBUNARE761 · 2024-01-24T13:49:39+00:00

I think there is more of a biological/evolution reason for this. In general they prefer the most desired male since biologically its the biggest chance for quality offspring and to protect and provide. They are natural followers because of this and why there are groupies for ugly famous dudes.

Hell, everyone knows they get more attention once in a relationship.

Two other quick examples. I once went to a club with 3 female coworkers and them dancing with me made half the club interested all of a sudden. Day before I was there with two male friends and we were as invisible as the next guy.

Other one was a friend of mine organised a party and the DJ didnt show up. He pushed me to pretend and just play a spotify playlist. Suddenly they were over all over me like im david guetta. Nobody cared the next day as another guy in the crowd.

RatchedAngle · 2024-01-24T12:46:25+00:00

Men misinterpret this phenomenon.

If a man gets more attention after getting a girlfriend, it isn’t because he’s been “pre-approved” and now suddenly women are attracted to him.

It’s a competition thing. A lot of (not all) women experience a thrill from taking a man who’s already taken. A woman pursuing a taken man couldn’t care less about the man - she’s primarily focused on proving her superiority to the other woman. It’s almost sapphic in a weird way. It’s one woman dominating another woman. The man is just a plaything in between (yet he sees himself as a stud because women are fighting over him).

Sadsad0088 · 2024-01-24T13:43:35+00:00

A man that my friends know or that other women have had successful relationships with is a better investment in my book when you think that a man could much more easily kill me than the opposite

apc4455 · 2024-01-24T12:20:28+00:00

I'm not sure how to answer your question but want to just comment that I have experienced this so many times.

Be single and women don't seem to be that interested etc. then when in a relationship the exact same women seem to be attracted, noticing them checking me out, seeking my attention, hitting me up etc.

Like, I'm literally the exact same person. Absolutely nothing has changed. I don't look better, I am not a better or more interesting person. But before I was "meh" to them and now they can't get their eyes off me.

So peculiar and weird to consider this from a guy perspective. Stopped trying to make sense of it.

No_Hat9118 · 2024-01-24T12:42:12+00:00

It’s confirmation that the guy is cool

mybotisonfire · 2024-01-24T15:51:08+00:00

Pre-selection is a major influencer.

A random dude with a good looking wife and ring on his finger is 10x more "attractive" than the EXACT SAME MAN walking into the room alone. And when I say "attractive" in quotes it's because he's equally attractive. Same looks. Same job. But, she looks at the wife and thinks:

I am easily prettier than her...

Oh, and female jealousy and competition is a big factor at that point as well.

Feminists talk about misogyny but nobody has more venom for women than other women.

It's a massive projection, really.

DarayRaven · 2024-01-24T12:26:58+00:00

I've been saying this for years, preselection or social proof is 90% of Game, because it gets you crazy results with chicks

A guy who can leverage a lot of female attention is by far the biggest attraction cue in any social context

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AlmostKindaGreat · 2024-01-24T19:26:24+00:00

Women tend to be more relationship-oriented than men, so it makes sense that a man would be more attractive if he is in a relationship, all else being equal. It confirms that he is willing to be in a relationship whereas otherwise this is unknown.

Preselection certainly has also an effect on women's attraction toward men for casual sex. On the other hand, men's preference of body types has changed in my lifetime, so men's attraction is also influenced by the culture around him and opinions of others.

It is difficult to quantify these so we have no idea who is more susceptible or who has more independent thought.

KayRay1994 · 2024-01-24T19:39:09+00:00

Women are attracted to successful men, whether success means financial, artistic, physical, stability, etc - On top of this, men are bigger and stronger than women usually, so from purely observational standpoint, a man trusted by many women is less likely to be dangerous (though obviously that doesn’t make it inherently true). Women are also far more social and people oriented, so a man with the attention of multiple women indicates that a man is socially competent, especially with women, as well.

I also think there is a natural confidence tied to it too, if a man has the attention of women (whether it be one woman he’s really interested in or multiple) he becomes far more confident and sure of himself, which is why tons of men suddenly get attention from other women soon as they get a gf

Hoopy223 · 2024-01-24T19:47:01+00:00

I don’t know why it’s so hard for some people to accept that men and women have different tastes and priorities.

If you are very handsome everything else goes out the window but if you’re in the middle like most guys then the size of your friend circle, your income, your personality these things become a big deal.

Mate Poaching is a legitimate thing. Women want the guy other women want. You see it in primates as well (chimps have “beta bucks” too lol).

Its how women are wired, just like how men are attracted to young fit women. Biology.

Women understand that part about men which is why they will go to the gym, diet, dress sexy etc. Men understand that women like “popular” guys so they will try to cultivate a persona via humor, friends, play the guitar or other performance things (climbing, motorcycles, etc).

IMHO most people “get” this stuff without any explanation.

confused_makeup · 2024-01-24T20:15:18+00:00

why do women need to see other women being attracted to the person they feel attracted to?

I personally don't like men in relationships (I think it's tacky to hit on another woman's man)

But - if a guy is single, (especially desperately so), there is likely a reason why that's got something to do with him/his behaviour

If a guy is in a relationship, someone else thought he was okay enough to date and he's more likely to not be a psycho

Just my 2 cents

Sabrepill · 2024-01-24T21:13:46+00:00

Women evolved to generally be agreeable and socially conforming as this conferred survival and reproductive benefit. Their symbolic animal is the sheep

Men evolved to be disagreeable and challenge social order until they achieve greatness or are put in their place through hardship and consequences. Their symbolic animal is the wolf

Boxisteph · 2024-01-24T22:24:18+00:00

Women don't 'social proof' for men. Men do that for women.

Women will spend time around men women are comfortable with because they assume the guy isn't predatory. That's it. Nothing sexually interesting, just safe

ta06012022 · 2024-01-25T04:43:04+00:00

Barice69 · 2024-01-25T06:34:39+00:00

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2024-01-25T18:29:50+00:00

Fat women are over confident.

feral-female · 2024-01-25T22:21:11+00:00

It’s mostly about safety idiot. Women will be more likely to trust men who are already trusted by other women. It’s that simple. You idiots tend to try and complicate everything to make excuses for your failures.

Hosj_Karp · 2024-01-26T11:45:08+00:00

there's no such thing as free will for anyone

LadyLazarus2021 · 2024-01-26T12:07:36+00:00

Women parter with terrible man. Men here: “you should have vetted better. You should have listened to your daddy or brother….”

Women ask advice from friends and family about man she is dating. Men here: “you are just a sheep! Men are more free thinking and independent!”

The answer is always the same - “any woman who is not riding my dick alone and rejecting everyone else is wrong. I am always the correct choice.”

Look, if only my brother had listened to his family, he wouldn’t have had that second abusive marriage. Alas….

Yes there are competitive mate poachers. God I’ve seen a few. Yes women seem to be more willing to consider the input of their friends - I did because I knew I could ignore red flags and it had bitten me in the past. But the constant derogatory beat that women are somehow less intelligent, less independent and less free thinking is so fucking old.

OtPayOkerSmay · 2024-01-27T23:57:38+00:00

I think it's subconscious. I'm inclined to think they want a man who has options and at least shows it throughout the duration of the relationship in subtle mostly-non intentional ways (looks in public, charming personality, etc), yes. It triggers that intra-sexual competitiveness. It's a subconscious tendency that can be manipulated for positive or negative effect.

That competitive nature is why PUAs advocate for spinning plates and a toxic dose of dread game. It's quite established within red pill off-shoots that women love that competition for a guy who can womanize, as plenty of women can be observed to be engaged in shadow-competitions in the soft-harems of highly desirable, actively womanizing men. I don't condone this - the men spinning because he knows women chase because of it. I don't think red pill is about spinning plates, but rather understanding tendencies. It's just knowledge.

So let's talk about what happens when the guy doesn't show he has options. When a person seems to have no people desiring them, they can easily become perceived as non-desired at best and undesirable at worst. Women weigh heavily on the perceived social consensus she sees in her partner, so if she in any ways thinks you might be deemed non/undesirable: she will be looking for ways to find you undesirable, which tends to lead to her competing for someone that is - cheating/monkeybranching.

As a bit of an aside... Maybe some food for thought for men: When a woman takes the reins on a relationship and is doing most of the interacting with waitresses and what not (IE: meek man - boss babe pairings), men can't flex that charm in a proper way; so I'm of the opinion that this needs to be cultivated early on - ie: a man should make a decent joke and wink at the waitress while his date/wife is watching. A man has to continuously show he's worth competing for if he really wants to keep the desire of a woman long-term. It takes work.

Title	does social proofing on attraction show how women have lower levels of free will or independent thought?
Author	genesislotus
Upvotes	7
Comments	195
Date	January 24, 2024 12:10 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/19efo31/does_social_proofing_on_attraction_show_how_women/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/does-social-proofing-on-attraction-show-how-women.1243657 https://theredarchive.com/post/1243657

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