Q4MEN What is, in detail, the problem you have with us feminists and feminism in general?

AmericanHistoryAFBB · 2016-12-19T19:19:43+00:00

My main problem with feminism is that it was a kinda good, OK idea run amok. You feminists and your movement have massively, massively overplayed your hand.

What started out as OK (women working, earning same rates of pay as men) has gone completely off the rails. Your movement now is characterized by hatred of and hostility to men; a ridiculous focus on nonissues like "microaggressions" and slutwalks in a desperate effort to stay relevant; and just all around insanity. Feminists' obsession with the virtually nonexistent "rape culture" is borderline mentally ill.

It's really difficult to take seriously a movement that has accomplished every goal it ever set out for; and yet claim that women are "oppressed". Western women are the most pampered, coddled, protected class of human beings ever to exist in all of human history. Things have literally NEVER been better for you; and you continue to bitch and moan about how terrible your lives are.

You have literally destroyed this country with your demands. The sexual marketplace, dating, sex, marriage -- all a complete wasteland minefield. You've destroyed them all; and it STILL isn't enough. You can literally fuck whoever you want, whenever and wherever you want, and it still isn't enough. You have the federal government giving you FREE birth control, free Gardasil, free EVERYTHING; and it STILL isn't enough. You have access to privilege at every conceivable stop in life: education. Jobs. Career advancement. Leisure time. You have privilege over men everywhere; and it STILL isn't enough.

You want to know why we now have a President-elect Trump? YOU are a big part of the reason why. You have yourselves and your Black Lives Matter crowd, and your "basket of deplorables" comments, to blame.

Ultramegasaurus · 2016-12-19T19:08:29+00:00

Trying to make it easier for females to defy traditional gender norms while still rewarding men for fulfilling them.

ThirdWaveMeninism · 2016-12-19T20:51:25+00:00

I'd say that the fact that the Feminist sub banned you proves quite a lot about what people think is wrong with feminism.

For me, it's the neverending hypocricy and double standards that gets to me.

"Don't objectify women, you creep, but check out these how bulges on olympic athletes"

"Treat me as a strong independant woman, but also give me a safe space where i can run to if reality becomes too hard for me"

"Women should earn just as much as men", but 60% of women still openly say that they would refuse to date any man who earned less than them

Women make up 60% of all university positions, and the biggest problem women have with this is that they can't find well-educated men to date.

Essentially, it's gone from a strive for equality into a movement that actively promotes benevolent sexism towards women and who excuses sexism against men.

cxj · 2016-12-19T19:26:15+00:00

HOW MUCH TIME YA GOT SONNY???!!! (Clayton Bigsby Voice)

Like most modern citizens of the Western World (USA, Europe), I have no problem with women voting, having careers, owning property, etc. These things are totally normal to me and I have only ever seen them opposed by the most extreme redpillers, and even then it's hard to tell if they are trolling or serious. IMO feminism was fine up through about the second wave maybe because its original goals were clear and objective, IE women quite literally did not have the right to vote and they wanted that specific right.

Unfortunately, after the second wave or so, feminism devolved into a tornado of unchecked irrationality and entitlement, to the point where things like air conditioning and spreading your legs on a subway are considered sexist. Challenging such absurdities carries the serious risk of online mob retaliation against your employment and/or professional reputation.

Additionally, third wave feminism also produced some very nasty, prejudiced legislation like the Violence Against Women Act (VAWA), which almost ruined my life. My ex gf physically attacked me, ransacked my house and stole my mom's iphone so I called the cops, who then arrested me and charged me with domestic battery and preventing a 911 call. VAWA and other policies such as mandating arrests at any DV call and designating men as "primary aggressors" make it almost impossible to beat the charge once its levied. I spent over 10 grand and almost lost my professional license over this, as well as set back my schooling by a year. I also had to risk spending 6 months minimum in county jail, and the particular jail in my county is notoriously violent and dangerous. My ex was able to do all this damage to me for attempting to use the law to prevent her from attacking me. Not only did she get away with domestic battery, she got to do even more damage. My lawyer told me the main reason I beat the charge was that she just didn't show up to the trial.

lagavenger · 2016-12-19T22:58:30+00:00

It's because feminism has been hijacked. It no longer represents equality, but to empower women, and classify dissenters as sexist.

Examples in recent history:

1) women should be allowed to serve in the infantry, but not be forced into the draft.

2) women should have full authority over abortion; men's vote should not count. Yet men should still be forced to pay child support; men rarely win custody battles.

3) "equal pay for equal work" is only aimed at getting women into high level white collar jobs, often ignoring plumbing, construction, and other physically demanding and "dirty" jobs.

Modern "feminists" don't debate issues, they simply say that everyone else is wrong. If you want to challenge or debate them, you're a misogynist. If you have a wife or are a woman that enjoys life in a traditional gender role, you'll be attacked (Kaley Cuoco).

I'm all for equal rights AND equal social status, but there are complicated cases that don't have an easy answer, and I believe they should be challenged. If they can't be challenged, they may not be the right answer.

Also, you can't be a feminist today if you're not a far-left liberal. As if views on fiscal and foreign policy are that intertwined with social equality.

So I stand by my statement, feminism has been hijacked. I'm sorry, because I believe it hurts the struggle for equality.

That is just my perspective, which doesn't matter since I'm a white, middle-class male.

Ultramegasaurus · 2016-12-19T19:01:34+00:00

Feminism is petty, anti-male and anti-free speech, simple as that.

I can bring countless of examples of this, but you'd probably just go No True Scotsman like "moderate" feminists always do.

DucksCanDance · 2016-12-19T19:07:22+00:00

I want to know whether there can be some common ground

The framework feminists work with makes discussions with them annoying and unconstructive.

You can kill any conversation by throwing in words like privilege, entitlement, patriarchy, oppression, rape culture and so on

DucksCanDance · 2016-12-19T19:23:33+00:00

It is an interest group for advancing women's interest, my only real issue is that they get some people to believe they're more noble than that

prodigy2throw · 2016-12-19T19:30:58+00:00

Your whole movement is a farce. You want all the privileges and none of the responsibilities a man has. There is no evidence that women face serious discrimination in the workplace and quoting that stupid statistic that has been debunked over and over doesn't help your cause

FairlyNaive · 2016-12-19T19:19:34+00:00

My problem is that the term is used to promote a huge variety of issues, by huge variety of people with different or sometimes even directly opposite views on a number of said issues, so instead of discussing how to better split custody, weather the gender quotas are good idea and how to prosecute rape in the most efficient way, we discuss weather a person proposing certain idea is an enemy of women or not.

disposable_pants · 2016-12-19T19:06:06+00:00

Feminism is an advocacy group that tries to get the best deal for women at the expense of everyone and everything else that masquerade s itself as an equality movement.

I'd have no problem with it if the intent was clear

kick6 · 2016-12-19T20:21:06+00:00

You're pretending like we owe you absolutely everything you ask for, in a zero sum game, and then call us horrible names when we disagree.

And then to make matters worse: you try to convince us that our existence is both toxic and unnecessary, and that losing at this zero sum game is therefore in our best interest.

darksoldierk · 2016-12-20T05:00:25+00:00

I have a problem with the amount of power that feminism has. Feminism has made sure that it is unacceptable to say that women are, in anyway, inferior or even "different" (in a potentially negative way) than men. We are human beings, and each and every one of us has advantages and disadvantages. Being a man has advantages and disadvantages. Being a woman has advantages and disadvantages. You can't just say "nope, sorry, women are perfect and anyone who says otherwise is a misogynistic piece of shit".

Let me give you an example to help clarify. As we all know, being a firefighter has some fairly brutal physical requirements. It needs physical strength and endurance, it needs a high pain tolerance level, it needs a strong psychological character. Since men have the advantage of testosterone, they are naturally better at being fire fighters. Yet, here we are, each station has to have at least one female fire fighter. Now, imagine what that's like for the male firefighters. Imagine knowing that the person that may one day need to drag your 250lb unconscious (dead weight) body out of a burning building is a 140lb person who got the job so that the fire station isn't accused of being misogynistic. Is it so wrong to say "yes, women not an optimal choice for the firefighting profession"? I don't think so.

Let me give you another. I recently read a study that said that women are "better" than men at investing because they are less likely to take risk. Any person with any basic business knowledge knows that there is no such thing as being generally "Better" or "worse". Risk is a part of business. And if you are going to try to make money, you need to take risk, often very high risk. This article, which was government sponsored (ie. funded with taxpayer money) was obviously trying to change the prejudice that the financial world has about female investors. Nothing wrong with trying to change the negative image of female investors, but saying that women are better than men because they take less risk is aggressive and it turns it into a "male vs female" conversation as opposed to "high risk tolerance vs risk averse investors" conversation. If the study found that risk averse investors tended to end up making more money than investors who took on more risk over their lifetime, then it should have said that and presented it's data. In some economies, being risk averse is more beneficial. In others, taking risks is more benefical. The study should have focused on what strategy is more beneficial in our current economy as opposed to which gender is a better investor. Every investor is different and while some groups of investors share similarities (such as risk averse level) you cannot segregate all investors into two extremely broad categories such as "males" and "females", unless the foundation of your study is bias and you already have a preconceived conclusion for which the study was created in order to prove.

My other problem is, feminism generally fights in order for women to obtain the benefits that men enjoy, yet when those benefits are accompanied with more responsibilities, feminism fights against forcing women to also take on those responsibilities. What ends up happening is, women enjoy the benefits without paying the price, and men end up having to pay the price of both their own rights and the rights that women enjoy.

Again, let me give you an example. Women wanted careers right? Well, you know what? Many, if not most, men had to and continue having to give up their family life for their careers. Many men missed pivotal moments in their children's lives in order to have their careers. Many men missed their child's first words, first steps, plays, recitals, graduations, award ceremonies etc. in order to have a career. THAT was the price that men paid. And here we are, in a world where women can have careers, but are they paying that price? No. If a man went to a graduation instead of completing that week-end report, he would likely be fired or would lose position in his company since he would show that he put something above his company, ie. he showed that he is committed to something more than his company. When a woman chooses to get pregnant, she is essentially choosing to show that she wants a family more than a career. A corporation should be allowed to replace her or demote her, just like they were allowed to when men chose family over work. Yet, because of feminism, they can't. Instead, corporations have to pass on her work while she is on mat leave and while she comes in late to drop off her kids at school and leave early to pick up her kids. That workload is usually passed onto men. In other words, men are paying for a woman's choice to have a family, yet women are gaining the benefit of being able to continue her career. Benefit without cost.

Another example, Gender quotas in the workplace. Here it is, it's implemented. Now corporations have to fire men and hire woman simply because men have a penis and woman have a vagina, but in what kind of jobs? only in higher level BOD positions. Women refused to accept gender quotas in professions that are female dominated such as child care services and educational services or in dangerous jobs such as logging, construction or fishing. They want the benefit of being hired because they have a vagina in high paying, cushy BOD positions, but hide behind their vaginas when it comes to jobs they don't want, or when it comes to professions where they can lose their job in order to make the workplace more gender equal.

Another example. The draft (I'm sure you've heard of this one). Yes, the draft will likely never be used, but the draft's only purpose now is that it is a symbol. That symbol, if nothing else, shows the face feminism behind all of the pretty make-up. It shows what feminism truly stands for. When it was suggested that women also be required to sign up for the draft in the interest of gender equality, feminism got it's panties in a bunch. Women went nuts. God forbid women be expected to give up their lives for the rights they enjoy and the countries they live in. God forbid women be expected to pay the same price as men for the same benefits.

I can go on and on and on with examples where feminism prioritizes benefits for women over equality of the genders. If you want to fight for benefits, fight for benefits, but don't do while screaming "I'm not fighting for benefits I'm fighting for equality". It is propaganda. It paints all women as hypocrites.

hentaipolice · 2016-12-19T20:41:41+00:00

One of the biggest problems I have is that the movement is so fractured (just as you experienced) that there are a lot of instances of "no true Scotsman" in that movement. It makes it very difficult to take any of them seriously, or even discuss issues.

Feminism to me seems very hypocritical, dishonest, and ignorant.

Most say they want equality, but what they really want is more rights and less responsibility. Many women still want/expect men to pay for everything even though they make their own money.
There is a lot of lobbying to get women into more STEM careers, but no lobbying to get more women into dangerous/blue collar jobs. There also is no lobbying to get men into more traditionally feminine careers. In fact, men who do so are demonized.
Even though there's a push to get women into the workforce, there isn't a push to get men into homemaking.
Women aren't willing to date down like men are, so their standards keep rising until there is a big gap of both single women and men which makes everyone unhappy.
Feminist solutions only focus on short term gain and don't even think of the consequences.
Promotes destruction of the family, leading to many social and economic problems.

Overall, feminism has destroyed everything that it has touched. The original premise of equality sounds good, but their solutions were terrible and have done more harm than good.

DarkLord0chinChin · 2016-12-19T21:02:32+00:00

Feminists hate men but at the same time want to become men.

Basically lesbian fefees made into a political movement

Lonny_zone · 2016-12-20T00:00:55+00:00

I hate:

The demonization of men and male sexuality.

Puritanical thought policing and censorship.

Delusional conspiracy theories like rape culture.

Paradoxical reasoning (wanting special treatment while simultaneously demanding equality).

bonersNlaughs · 2016-12-19T19:21:23+00:00

I see it as outdated, there is no inequality between the sexes, at least in the UK, it shouldnt be so vocal and worse mainstream. I can't hate on femenists as individual snowflakes when i remember they are just useful ideological idiots, all for making the wealth gap between the top and bottom bigger and the consolidation of power.

TheSandbergPrinciple · 2016-12-19T22:54:31+00:00

The problem with feminists is that you aren't a political movement for the equalization of the sexes, you act more like a union trying to get the best deal you can, even if it's at the expense of men.

calling_cq_to_anyone · 2016-12-20T01:38:26+00:00

Feminism has become its own echo chamber. In this way it's like certain right-wing movements (e.g. free-market fundamentalism, Moral Majority) in that it sees everything as a binary - you are either for women or you are against them, and if you disagree with feminism then you are against them.

You have seen this for yourself, and you understand how stupid this is. I've just stopped caring, and have decided that I have no reason to care, because even though it promises to make things better for both men and women, anyone who tries to address the problems men have is shouted down as a misogynist.

So, hey, let's not care about how awkward men want to commit suicide because they can be accused of harassment with no evidence! Let's bash Scott Aaronson for suffering emotional abuse by Andrea Dworkin! Hell, here's a non-dating example: let's not care about how there are unemployed blue collar men with no more sense of self worth!

Each of these problems relates back, in some way, to gender norms, which feminism promises to get rid of, but doesn't really do shit about, at least not as far as equality is concerned. In theory, feminism is thus doing us a public service.

The problem is, if you want to eliminate gender roles, you must do so for both/all genders. You must teach everyone to accept everyone else for their own choices. Teach men to embrace non-feminine women. Teach women to embrace non-masculine men.

The problem is (and this is from someone who went through college within the last few years, so my knowledge is fairly current), this is not the way the movement has operated. It has given a great deal of support for women who want to break out of traditional gender roles. And at first glance, it seems to do the same for men - see references to non-binary genders. However, they have not received nearly as much support as non-gender-conforming women.

Think: have women been publically urged to tolerate men who aren't tall? Who have high-pitched voices? Who have no sexual experience? Think of the ways in which men have been persuaded to (quite legitimately btw) accept women who act more traditionally "masculine," e.g. showing assertion and confidence, and how women have not been taught to accept gender non-conformity from men. In fact, as can be seen from the rest of this subreddit, the exact opposite is the case.

Going back to the echo-chamber nature of feminism: whenever someone tries to point this out, to get feminism to do it's fucking job, this person is inevitably denounced as a woman-hater and ridden out of town.

The ideology has become ossified and impractical. As a result of seeing all this, I've decided that I don't fucking care if feminists think I'm polite or ideologically proper. I just don't. I'd rather stand with the rejects and the nobodies any day.

TL;DR feminism intended well, but has turned into Frankenstein's Monster, and become too ideologically inflexible for it's own good. So I'm telling it to go kiss my ass.

ianiemasns · 2016-12-20T04:01:34+00:00

Also, feminists constantly act like assholes and then try to claim that the people who dislike them are against equality.

Feminist: #killallmen, male tears, quit mansplaining, all men are dangerous animals

Average person: wow you're an asshole

Feminist: Why do you hate women?

caesarfecit · 2016-12-20T20:01:38+00:00

My problem with feminism is simple and doesn't require much explanation:

It holds that women are simultaneously the victims of male oppression and therefore need special protection/privileges, but are also equal to men.

You can't have equality and entitlement or freedom and protection at the same time. That is literally having your cake and eating it too.

IMO almost every complaint about feminism comes back to that central contradiction.

Personally I think this contradiction comes from the flawed assault on gender roles and this idea that femininity is forced upon women and is used as a tool of control.

I believe gender roles are a natural and somewhat unavoidable consequence of biology, psychology, and society. And like many revolutions throughout history, a bad situation (gender roles are set in stone) got replaced with a worse one (gender roles are a social construct and a tool of social control). That's not even good for women, and you can see that in how some women reject feminist orthodoxy for a variety of reasons, such as:

They don't have a problem being a traditional woman.
They don't have an axe to grind with men.
They like having men care for them, provide for them, protect them etc.
They don't feeling like wanting male attention, being sexual/submissive is selling out the sisterhood.
They don't like being pressured to beat men at their own game, or the drawbacks of full gender equality such as signing up for the draft, or male standards of personal responsibility.

I personally believe that many of these contradictions can be resolved with one simple realization:

Gender is neither discrete states, nor an amorphous spectrum - it's a polarity. It's a bell curve with two peaks and a trough in the middle.

That way we can still have men be men and women be women, while recognizing that those two themes have all kinds of variations. And that ultimately what both genders need aren't special perks or gender role expectations forced on them from on high - it's freedom to carve out their own identity and let the chips fall where they may.

TL;DR: What could and perhaps will save feminism from itself is revisiting the topic of gender roles and the bad dogma surrounding it, as well as a strong dose of libertarianism when it comes to public policy and societal issues.

cxj · 2016-12-19T19:00:03+00:00

Clarifying question to the OP:

What do you mean by "feminism"? Feminism as it exists now? Feminism as it existed at some other time?

daveofmars · 2016-12-20T03:15:16+00:00

Feminism wears a mask to appeal to the normies while obscuring its real intentions. Feminism - the academic root of it at least - says the ideology is about equality, but in practice Feminism has rarely ever touched the needs of men. If Feminists somehow do tackle men's issues, it's because they, as women, also get something out of the deal. They never help men just for the sake of helping men without secondary benefits to themselves. They're not truly altruistic; they never want to see the other side, which kind of undercuts the whole equality thing. Feminism is just a self serving contradiction.

Being self-serving wouldn't be a problem if Feminism was just honest about its intentions. Just come out and say you're doing it for yourselves. Nobody would care and nobody would stop you. Keeping up the lie for appearances ruins credibility, and it prevents a functional men's advocacy movement.

YetAnotherCommenter · 2016-12-20T04:27:48+00:00

My personal problem with feminism is quite simple:

Feminists generally claim to be against traditional gender roles. In reality, I don't think they are. They merely want to make the gender roles more pleasant for women through amplifying all the female-advantaging parts of these roles (including the obligations they place on men) whilst taking away all the negative parts of these roles (the restrictions they placed on women).

In short, I consider contemporary feminism to be Cafeteria Patriarchy.

I also consider contemporary feminism to be hateful towards gender nonconformist men - the wars waged by third wave feminists (I presume you wouldn't be one of these since you hate the victim mentality) against nerd culture, in particular video games and the atheist movement, made it pretty clear that today's feminism doesn't care about gender-atypical men.

Am I for equality under law? Yes. Am I for equality in social treatment? Absolutely. Am I for allowing women to go into any career they want to do and can perform competently? Yes. Am I for letting women make any choice as to their own personal lifestyle as long as those choices don't constitute force, fraud or coercion? Entirely. I'm also pro-abortion pre-viability, which is the standard enshrined in Roe v Wade.

But I am not for the nerd-shaming cafeteria-traditionalist misandry of today's feminist movement.

I also philosophically reject the entire basis of Third Wave Feminism; as I am in favor of Enlightenment Individualism and Empirical Reason. Oppressor/Oppressed class analysis is bad social science methodology. And I loathe the postmodernistic, relativistic, anti-Western trash being pumped out by feminist ideologues. No, not all cultures are equally valuable and not all cultural practices are equally good.

ifelsedowhile · 2016-12-19T20:24:13+00:00

the concept of patriarchy as a social cultural structure that privileges men over women is demonstrably wrong because men build this whole civilization with their sacrifices and their hard work and only a marginal pc of them was in power. everything else wrong with feminism stems from this false premise.

drok007 · 2016-12-19T21:00:03+00:00

I'm not a collectivist, and I don't think women as a group are owed anything for simply being women.

Dissentient · 2016-12-19T21:39:58+00:00

As you can imagine, the kind of feminism that I see while not being a feminist is a vocal kind. I don't know how big part of feminism they represent, but I see what I see. Things that I don't like about what I see:

A huge number of double standards in regards to what is acceptable for men/women to be done by them and to them.
For a movement that should be about gender equality, they don't seem to care in any way about issues that only affect men, male side of issues that concern both genders.
Rape culture / patriarchy conspiracy theories that are not only completely false, but also sexist.
Just misandry in general.

The kind of gender (and race/orientation/etc.) equality that I want is one where everyone is treated equally, not one that considers some people more valuable than others. The feminism that I see tends to classify people this way, and what's more, it classifies and discriminates them based on exactly same things that it claims it wants to end discrimination against, things that a person doesn't choose about themselves. It also tends to completely ignore issues of class, which are way more important for a person's wellbeing than all of those things.

And in general, feminism looks like it tries to reinforce all gender roles that benefit women, while only caring about eliminating those that they see as harmful to them.

darkmoon09 · 2016-12-19T23:57:12+00:00

Modern third wave feminism is basically a screeching harpy bitching about things like 'mansplaining', labeling every guy a potential rapist, shaming male sexuality, and pulling fire alarms on gathering discussing men's issues.

SilentLurker666 · 2016-12-20T00:54:26+00:00

I'll rather give you some complains about what some former feminists have to say about feminism:

https://www.quora.com/Why-are-most-feminists-so-hypocritical

http://quietriotgirlelly.blogspot.ca/2010/04/why-rapist-is-dirty-word.html

Also I'll equate Feminism to leftist ideology. It all sounds wonderful on paper, but horrible in practice. Here's just one recent example of feminist policy in practice:

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/gender-equal-snow-removal-procedures-left-stockholm-paralyzed

Also feminist often falsely interpert statistics (and I was being generious here... I'll actually say they purpose propagate misleading statistics) to further their agenda...

Here's an example of feminist doubledown on the gender wage gap

http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/07/what-78-cents-wage-gap-means/

Also The Rape culture all traced it's roots on Mary Koss's 1 in 4 statistics... and here's an article that debunks it:

http://www.city-journal.org/html/campus-rape-myth-13061.html

Finally, the definition of Feminist is a person who supports equality for both genders.. then could you explain the following?

http://floridapolitics.com/archives/193015-womens-group-calls-on-gov-scott-to-reject-tom-lees-proposed-alimony-bill

https://www.bustle.com/articles/22935-can-you-be-a-feminist-and-still-expect-guys-to-pay

This doesn't even go into /r/tumblerinaction but here's just a few glimpse of the horrors within

https://twitter.com/heightismxposed

Entropy-7 · 2016-12-20T02:36:26+00:00

In My Fair Lady Rex Harrison sang a song "Why Can't a Woman be More Like a Man".

50 years on it still holds true if you take away the cartoonish way that it was presented.

Feminism is bullshit because these women want what men have but refuse to work for it like men do.

First Wave? Ok, I am on board. Second Wave? I am feeling a bit iffy. Third Wave? Fuck that shit! These bitches be crazy!

[deleted] · 2016-12-19T21:41:42+00:00

[deleted]

DarkLord0chinChin · 2016-12-19T22:28:44+00:00

With all their rhetoric about fighting toxic masculinity and normative gender roles feminists should be standing with us incels - instead they backstab us.

cesarema · 2016-12-19T22:50:24+00:00

I don't support Feminism because I'm not a woman and I don't care about women's rights. I dislike Feminism because it presumes to tell me how I should behave and interact with women and live my life. I also dislike Feminism because I feel that it has played a small part in ruining society. That said, my dislike for Feminism is more of a casual disdain, it's not enough of a threat to warrant actual hatred or my full attention.

voteGOPk · 2016-12-19T23:34:12+00:00

feminism = eugenics.

I like it for this reason, but others most probably don't

ianiemasns · 2016-12-19T23:38:53+00:00

Well, for one thing, you turn every concept into a meaningless "I win" button.

Mansplaining originally had a very specific meaning and was actual social commentary. Now literally anything a man says can be dismissed if it's "mansplaining", and literally anything can be labeled "mansplaining".

Gaslighting used to have a specific meaning. Now anytime someone disagrees with a feminist, they're "Trying to gaslight her."

See also 'tone policing'. See also 'privilege'. See also 'silencing' and 'erasing lived experience'.

Nagicman1 · 2016-12-19T23:41:35+00:00

I have no problem with feminism, however I'm a Marxist feminist, not a stupid bourgeois feminist.

winterrider · 2016-12-20T00:10:40+00:00

While I support equal rights and equal pay for women I vehemently disagree with feminism and feminists on a number of issues but I will cover a handful here.

First thing, a woman deciding to be a mother is an awesome and beautiful thing. If she wants to be a stay at home mom or work part time while she takes care of her children I 100% support this choice, just like I would support the choice of a woman to become an engineer or a CEO. Despite what feminists say, a stay at home mom or a woman who works part time doesn't suffer from internalized misogyny.

Second thing. Stop blaming men for women's decisions. If a woman for example decides to commit some crime, she is responsible and is not a victim. She deserves the same jail sentence a man would get for that crime.

Third thing. Rape. Rape is a horrible, evil and brutal crime. Feminists harm women who have actually been victims of rape and make things dramatically harder for them when they glorify women who are widely known to have lied about being a victim of this horrible crime such as the notorious "mattress girl" who was exposed as a fake, who invented a story of rape out of malice, yet even after being exposed and a known fraud, was honored by the National Organization for Women.

Porn and sex work. I don't care if a woman decides to engage in stripping, porn or other sex work. It is her body, her choice. Feminists blame men for women deciding to engage in these activities which is ridiculous.

salami_inferno · 2016-12-20T03:07:04+00:00

I think feminism is great, except that a lot of feminists pretend that the goals which they hope to achieve will somehow help men out once they're reached? I support feminism out of solidarity to all the women I know, but I'm also aware that it wont help me or make the problems that I have because I'm a man any better.

They'll still find submissive men unattractive and unsuitable to date, although they might accept that they exist. Although men should be accepting of how different they are and finding all sizes attractive, while they deem anyone under 6 feet ugly as fuck.

GaiusScaevolus · 2016-12-20T15:37:13+00:00

In short, 3rd wave feminism.

3rd wave feminism is fairly unique among ideologies, in that it tells it's target audience they are weak, and need Government/culture to warp from centuries of precedent specifically for there feelings.
3rd wave feminism creates mythical problems, rather than face legitimate problems.
- While girls in the Middle East get disfigured for trying to get an education, feminists in the U.S march around topless to protest men looking at them.
- While Saudi women cannot be in public without a man, U.S feminists persist in demanding legislating a special economic status for women, citing a supposed 23% pay gap, a claim that no reputable economist has supported in nearly two decades.
- While women in other parts of the world are raped with the tacit or overt support of their culture and government, 3rd wave feminists call the U.S a rape culture, citing unverified statistics, terrifying young women, and shaming young men into borderline sexual/romantic dysfunction by telling them they're all latent rape-monsters.
- When a western women does get raped, rather than teach her that the worst night of her life doesn't have to define her, and help her learn to be strong and reclaim her body/ self image, 3rd wave feminists tries it's damnedest to keep her in perpetual victim status with endless safe spaces and trigger warnings. Additionally, 3rd wavers have so bastardized and broadened the concept of what rape is, that women who seek and deserve justice for such a heinous crime are put in the same boat as the sorority girl who had one too many and regretted cheating on her boyfriend in the morning.

despisedlove2 · 2016-12-20T18:56:00+00:00

Feminism is a social special interest group devoted to minimizing female responsibility, and maximizing female privilege.

What is not to like?

/s

MorpheusGodOfDreams · 2016-12-21T07:07:57+00:00

It really depends on whether you recognize that Feminism IS Communism:

https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/3xojx3/what_do_you_think_about_the_relationship_between/

AutoModerator · 2016-12-19T18:57:20+00:00

Attention!

You can post off topic/jokes/puns as a comment to this Automoderator message.
For "CMV" and "Question for X" Threads: Parent comments that aren't from the target group will be removed, along with their child replies.
If you want to agree with OP instead of challenging their view or if the question is not targeted at you, post it as an answer to this comment.
OP you can choose your own flair, just press Flair under your post!

Thanks for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion!

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

LUClEN · 2016-12-19T19:49:34+00:00

The movement does not appear very organized anymore. The views are so varied and some are so wildly different that contemplating the issues the philosophy tries to tackle has become extremely laborious. Taking one position regarding a topic undoubtedly upsets someone from some other subset group of feminists and vice versa. Throw in the general hostility males face when they do engage with the material, ironically because of their sex, and you have a whole lot of reason to just avert attention to more thrilling mental endeavours.

alreadyredschool · 2016-12-19T20:20:53+00:00

https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/5ac9k8/why_do_so_many_women_oppose_feminism/d9fbimc/

Another big problem is that their solution to everything is "HEY LOOK AT ME I AM RAISING AWARENESS" or shaming.

TheSonofLiberty · 2016-12-19T22:19:09+00:00

I don't feel like writing a long post for this, but to be succinct, I've considered myself a feminist after reading a few works back in the 1800s, basically the first wave, after I found myself agreeing with most of what they said about getting the right to vote, economic independence, etc.

However, I don't agree with much of anything that is being pushed in the name of feminism nowadays, such as your example of having to police yourself for whatever is deemed 'microaggressions,' universities changing curriculums because reading things from white men is basically thought violence towards women + minorities, feminist school lessons being taught to children without any objections being placed in the curriculum - including feminist worksheets/homework to do, and last but not least - how mainstream feminism just conveniently happens to be so entrenched in identity politics, yet mainstream opinion leaders don't seem to be spreading any sort of class consciousness, even though class status reaches EVERY identity in existence. Maybe academics are writing papers about it, but I see no results out of this, just rhetoric about how the person wearing the boot and the suit needs to be of every color and gender but never questioning the nature of the boot and the suit in the first place.

Also: Steinem - "And when you’re younger, you think: ‘Where are the boys? The boys are with Bernie.’"

and Madeleine Albright - "There’s a special place in hell for women who don’t help each other.” - in the context of young women being more likely to support Bernie Sanders instead of H Clinton.

Thoughts?

dejour · 2016-12-20T05:25:35+00:00

Personally, I think that men and women are treated differently. Probably 100 years ago, women had more disadvantages than men, but nowadays I think there are relatively equal advantages and disadvantages on each side.

So I think there are two fair ways of approaching this:

1) Treat men and women exactly the same in every single way. This means that both women and men lose their advantages, but no longer have to deal with their disadvantages.

2) Keep a somewhat traditional system. Maybe like today's culture in small midwestern city?

I have a preference for the first system. But I don't think that option #2 is horrible. And if you think that sex differences are genetic to a large degree, you might have more people happier with option #2.

However, I feel that feminism is more like this:

3) Correct any disadvantages faced by women. Increase the advantages already enjoyed by women.

That seems unfair. And it only makes sense if you believe that women are treated much worse than men by society.

Why don't I feel that women are definitely worse off than men?

Think about the stats that are used to compare countries quality of life. And compare men as a country to women as a country.

Sure men make more money, are more likely to be political leaders or CEOs, etc. But women are more educated, live longer, less likely to go to jail, less likely to be homeless, less likely to be murdered, etc. There's a pretty good chance that the country of women would rank higher in a quality of life index.

Either fix both sets of problems or fix neither.

And to be honest, I think that a lot men's and women's problems are interconnected. So if you try to fix just one it won't really be successful.

sovietterran · 2016-12-20T05:35:01+00:00

I'm blue pill, so IDK if this counts for me, but I don't have a problem with feminism or feminists. I do have an issue with the gendered and gender essentialist language and approaches that still have sway on popfeminist culture, and the inclusion of borderline sexist extrapolations from day to day life being pretty common click bait.

A lot of the need to let women speak is still very necessary, but I don't feel there is enough of a midground in hearing men voice their experiences when we get into claiming how and why men act a certain way.

I was sexually assaulted by a girl when I was a kid. I've been groped and touched in ways I didn't want by highly 'feminist' women on multiple different occasions since. Every olive branch I've received on that end has had a leash on it, and that's where I draw the line.

Feminism is definitely a good thing societally, but there are some sexist and patriarchal ideas about men in feminism I don't have much hope of being tackled anytime soon. That doesn't take away from the good that they do, but it does make me hesitant around some topics.

winndixie · 2016-12-20T07:11:33+00:00

You complain. You complain so much that is seems like y'all make things up to complain about and complain about other people's problems. There is no law that says women cant be engineers, just go be one. Do you want to be one? If she's an engineer, or if she's a happy housewife what does that have to do with you? Yes there's obstacles. So what? I know girls who are engineers and couldn't give a damn about feminism. I wasn't born inheriting money like you generalize us men are. My family was raised on 14k. Funny enough, you guys don't protest how little old me was born so poor and there's an immigrant wage gap.

You make guys like me feel guilty to be a man. Tho, recently I've been accepting this as the point to any social begging. And that's all feminism is, a social begging for a charity, much like donation boxes, commercials with dogs and cats. I have no problem with that, I love the Salvation Army, but you don't even admit that. You want me to focus all my money, attention, and patience on you, with nothing in return, and disregard other things in my life. Why? Because you're weak and can't even dig yourself a handful of dirt from the ground we're born on. You need men. To pity you or keep you around to fuck and let you mooch off of. You do this by menshaming if you can so you don't have to put out. Not my female engineering friend, though. She does her real helpful work, she gets paid. You mooch of beta males without putting out if you can help it. Then you try to mooch off alphas by putting out cause you think it's worth it.

Don't get me wrong though, I'd love to keep some women around for a good fuck. Toxic people like us are meant for each other. You trick me for money then I trick you for sex. Or we can accept our own natures and cohabitat.

As much of a nuisance feminism is though, at its very core it's only a movement, if we ignore it, feminism is powerless and self-defeating. You gave us Trump, after all. Look, the pendulum is swinging back this direction again.

lbspredh · 2016-12-20T08:29:17+00:00

Sick of the whingeing, "oooh this minor annoyance in my white middle class life is a problem, now what is literally everyone else but me gonna do about it, I demand action from other people?"

Candy_Kittens · 2016-12-20T08:31:49+00:00

Real life feminism is excellent i feel, and has made great progress with equality over the years. However there is still much work to be done.

Internet feminism is really nothing more than thinly disguised misandry.

sse23 · 2016-12-20T11:01:24+00:00

For me it has nothing to with wanting women to "submit" ( although I want that sexually) women have the same opportunities in life as men. In many cases women have more rights than men.

What I absolutely hate about modern feminism is the hypocrisy and spreading of false statements, that is just so obvious it hurts to see how anyone can defend it.

[deleted] · 2016-12-20T21:08:18+00:00

If it weren't for the old form of feminism, I wouldn't exist. Mi mother got an education, found a good paying job and married for love with a man so out of her social sphere he could perfectly be a Martian. She gave her father a gigantic middle finger because feminism made it possible.

On the other hand, a warped form of what feminism means allowed a spoiled little princess to kick me down for the crime of being... Too stupid? "She's pretty." That was all I said. It didn't snowball to the size of some USA college scandals, but it destroyed my career prospects. It was extreme, all right. But it happened and it demonstrated how male privilege is fluid, and somebody with the label "woman" could easily outprivilege me, male white cis straight boy... Because at the moment she had the contacts derived from wealth, and I had none. In the end, I... won... and they paid for having it thrown under the rug.

On a more general note, though, I would mention that most feminist are with feminism... half the way. Their support ends where male role gets more flexible, where career must be open for them, and where they are called upon their own mistakes. Oh, I know... NAFALT. My entire circle of female friends (SO included) responds to the title of feminist. But an unhealthy number of them at large are like that: instead of centering on reforming roles and changing mindset globally, their pick of battles borders the bizarre.

[deleted] · 2016-12-21T01:46:07+00:00

Feminism directly conflicts with capitalism. Capitalism directly encourages the evolution of men. The evolution of men leads to new technology, discoveries and amazing art inspired by the newfound knowledge.

Anything that makes the world have less potential is pretty annoying, because the world is less entertaining.

However, feminism does manage to make up for that loss in another form. It has devolved society in ways that provide an absurd spectacle that I don't think we'd ever have if we stayed on a more conservative path.

Personally, either extreme makes life enjoyable as a spectator. Whether it's a patriarchal march to astounding feats of man or a feminist plummet into safe spaces and gender quotas instated by the prime minister himself, interesting times are interesting times.

But I have a side that likes fairness and Marxist ideologies do not have any respect for that. Feminism is a bunch of successful men using women's biological nature against men to kick the ladder.

azngirl7689 · 2016-12-22T13:18:12+00:00

I don't like how current feminism is all about you go girl with no consequences for bad behavior. It also disregards the problems that men have- something I believe is in opposition to their whole "equality between the genders" schtick.

[deleted] · 2016-12-19T19:15:14+00:00

I don't have any problems with feminism or feminists; I'm an intersectional feminist, so are both my partners, so are their other partners, and so on. Feminism is very common in the poly and kink communities; usually if you're mature enough to have non-traditional relationships and non-traditional sex, odds are you're mature enough to have outgrown a lot of the silly crap people still believe about gender roles and gender essentialism.

It'll be interesting to see what the followers of TRP respond with. Probably won't be honest, but it'll be interesting!

Dissentient · 2016-12-19T21:55:22+00:00

What is a microaggression? Is it this:

The term “microaggression” was used by Columbia professor Derald Sue to refer to “brief and commonplace daily verbal, behavioral, or environmental indignities, whether intentional or unintentional, that communicate hostile, derogatory, or negative racial slights and insults toward people of color."

Title	Q4MEN What is, in detail, the problem you have with us feminists and feminism in general?
Author	GeekyFeministDork
Upvotes	11
Comments	484
Date	December 19, 2016 6:56 PM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/5j85om/q4men_what_is_in_detail_the_problem_you_have_with/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/q4men-what-is-in-detail-the-problem-you-have-with.271150 https://theredarchive.com/post/271150

Comments