Let’s talk about arranged marriages

BarestBranch · 2021-05-19T14:48:38+00:00

Arranged almost always just means that the (extended) family acts as mediator. From what I've seen with my own family, it's just a matter of meeting people through different means. Usually, cultures where arranged marriages are common are also less permissive of men and women mingling, at least one and one, so introductions through the family are a good way of finding a partner. And in those cultures, notions about sex and marriage differ as well. I don't really see it as more or less beneficial. It's a product of different social relations and family structure, a greater dependence on family as a source of financial security, and more conservative views on sexuality.

RandomUser8467 · 2021-05-19T16:45:59+00:00

You've already gotten a lot of really good answers. One thing I'll add is it's not a cure for being an incel. UMC Indian families place a lot of value on the partner's background which not only includes caste, education, job, their family's job, etc. And this applies to both men and women so ultimately it's not much different than natural assortive mating.

Men that are complete losers in Western dating will still be losers in arrange marriage Indian dating. However it is a practice that works really well for average men or successful men that aren't good looking.

For women it just depends on what your family is like. Women are allowed to reject suitors but there is still a pressure among families that still practice arrange marriage to be hitched by a certain age. Additionally daughters are often expected to work full time AND take care of the house (although once again, this can vary depending on the family).

Overall I don't think it's any better or worse than Western dating. It mostly comes down to what you're looking for in a life partner and how inclined you are to get married and have kids.

Good-Strong · 2021-05-19T13:58:45+00:00

I come from an Indian family, and honestly I'd say dating, despite it's own flaws and pit falls is far, far better.

Pretty sure the only reason why the divorce rate is so low in India is because for a long time, divorce has been a huge taboo in society, so even people in abusive marriages usually prefer to stay and suffer. It is only in the last decade or so that a significant change is being made in that department among the middle and lower classes.

Don't get me wrong, a lot of arranged marriages (both in older generations and right now) were/are actually healthy and happy.

But that is very much a thing of luck, as couples typically don't get very long to get to know each other.

Overall I would say it is a great system for people who just want to quickly tick off the marriage box lol, but if you actually seek to find someone you love and build a deeper connection over time before committing to each other for life- it's not really for you.

festethefoole1 · 2021-05-19T15:37:46+00:00

So I’m a white guy from London but with loads of friends from the Indian subcontinent who’s parents were arranged marriages.

What’s interesting is that arranged marriages (as a sort of human phenomenon) haven’t been a catastrophic failure at all and have most certainly stood the test of time. For me, they do offer a cause for optimism looking at the way that love can potentially grow between two people as they get to know each other. The divorce rate is obviously skewed by societal pressure but I’m quite convinced that if attachment couldn’t grow in the absence of necessarily super-attraction we’d be seeing it be far higher.

Alain De Botton said it best when he said you might marry the wrong person, but you’ll almost certainly marry a good enough person.

Whisper · 2021-05-19T16:56:34+00:00

Arranged marriages work much better in cultures where gender roles, and the responsibilities of a husband and a wife, are much more clear.

If being a good partner is a matter of doing what you're supposed to do, and you know what you're supposed to do, then "compatibility" (the shibboleth of the modern west's take on relationships) isn't as important a thing as you might think.

However, when expectations are not clear, people tend to need to spend years randomly bouncing off other people, trying to find one whose default behaviour fulfills their wants.

IcarusKiki · 2021-05-19T15:51:54+00:00

Arranged marriages only “work” because divorce or admitting your parents made the wrong choice is considered taboo in Indian culture.

doclee1977 · 2021-05-19T17:05:01+00:00

I’d challenge that marriage, as an institution, is a completely unnecessary anachronism in today’s world.

Seriously; marriage is an outdated social construct that has been deeply programmed into the minds of the world’s youth for millennia, but is honestly no longer necessary and in fact imposes a set of legal and social requirements on couples that may diminish happiness in relationships.

Lots of couples manage to have children, homes, monogamy (if that’s what they choose), and fully co-involved lives without the benefit of a wedding ring and certificate (which is basically a legal contract involving the state and gov’t in your relationship, and totally unnecessary).

If you choose to marry, I wish you nothing but happiness. But acknowledge the idea that you’re probably doing it more for other people than yourselves, and a piece of paper and a ring is probably not going to do one thing to enhance or improve your relationship, especially if your relationship already has (serious) flaws.

undead_pavanayi · 2021-05-19T13:11:17+00:00

I am from India so I can give an overview. The practice and customs may vary from place to place but generally the process is the same.

In arranged marriage, more than the compatibility of the individuals getting married, the compatibility of the families are tested. Which means that the bride and groom need to be from the same caste and social strata.

I'm not married BTW.

buntyisbest · 2021-05-19T13:47:26+00:00

Basically, an arranged marriage is often a relationship between two families, as opposed to two individuals. Since more people are involved, there is a lesser chance of things ending up in divorce due to really basic arguments - like you'd see in the case of love marriages. Moreover, the bride and groom are generally more understanding towards each other and expectations are often low, which is what leads to even greater success of these marriages.

Now to answer your questions directly:

how does it work? Do you get a say in who you marry?

In most modern families, you definitely get a say in who you want to marry. You level set expectations with your parents and then they either post an advertisement OR talk to some of their friends to see if somebody's daughter is of similar age and wants to get married. You are in fact allowed to meet, go out with and get to know your SO before deciding whether or not you two want to get married. Think of it as a date, but it's arranged by your parents.

do you think the practice has benefits? Any drawbacks?

The biggest benefit is that you don't have to go through all the hard work of finding a date yourself and let your parents do it for you. 😂 The biggest drawback post-marriage is that due to the lack of time you've spent with each other pre-marriage, you might find out later in life that you're majorly incompatible. Now you have to decide whether you want to live an incomplete, dissatisfied life with your current partner OR file for a divorce OR cheat. All of these are pretty unhealthy options as you can probably tell. This also happens to be one of the biggest arguments AGAINST arranged marriage.

how does it compare in your view with western views on marriage for love?

They each have their pros and cons. I think love marriage is great because you get to spend a lot of time with your partner pre-marriage, which helps to gauge whether you two are truly compatible for each other. Compatibility is probably the #1 thing that you need in any relationship! But if that is truly the case, why are divorce rates so high in the west compared to the east? That's the biggest argument FOR arranged marriages.

Hope that clears up a lot of your questions. :)

EDIT: I'm originally from India. But I've lived in the West - mainly the US & Canada - for almost 9 years.

geyejoe7 · 2021-05-19T16:19:02+00:00

It breeds successful marriages. But "successful" as in "can't divorce so it's low divorce rate". It doesn't imply happiness

cowfishAreReal · 2021-05-19T14:32:45+00:00

Arranged marriages only have a smaller divorce rate because the people in it force themselves to stay for religious reasons or because they don't want their family to disown them, it's not because they're actually happier

lady_ven0m · 2021-05-19T16:26:22+00:00

I’m Indian, and while some of them do work, I don’t really agree with the concept. It makes men feel entitled to a wife and they are raised with the belief that they will eventually be set up with someone and she will stay with him no matter what. Women are also raised to be subservient and made to believe they will be well taken care of by their future husband, and end up enduring a lot of abuse later for the sake of keeping the family together. Women will also marry for citizenship in another country because it means a better life for her immediate family. You’re usually married off early because they don’t want anyone to date around or act on their hormones, and there’s usually a significant age gap but I don’t know how common that is these days. Also, you’re expected to bear children so you will have a lot of pressure from both sides of the family to have children relatively soon after getting married.

I’m speaking generally and using mostly my own family as an example.

flamingoinghome · 2021-05-19T17:48:22+00:00

A friend of mine's parents had an arranged marriage. It's...bad. Really bad. They're actually distant relatives, but like...they don't even like each other. It was the "I want to get married, and you're here" sort of marriage, but because they're traditional, they can't divorce.

On the flipside, a girl I knew in college had an arranged marriage. They were friends from childhood, and did like each other--they could have said "no" if they didn't, when their families started talking it out. They seem really happy.

I think it's not a million miles from 'western' marriage in that it depends a lot on the people, circumstances, and motives.

Pinkalicious100 · 2021-05-19T13:31:05+00:00

I was on the market for an arranged marriage, more than the looks (on both parties) its about how you present yourself to the families on either sides. So a lack of chemistry or attraction doesn't really matter.

And divorce isn't rare, sometimes people just arent compatible and they get divorced. Idk about north India but in the south India its pretty normalised

goatismycopilot · 2021-05-19T16:19:02+00:00

I think arranged marriages are an effective to create a partnership when you come from that same culture and the baseline you already share some core values and have some political/business/financial interests with another family. It works when everybody agrees that the family take precedence over individual concerns. You partner up, you reproduce, and hopefully like one another a bit.

I happen to have co workers who more or less went this route. I do not think it is better or worse but it is harder to sustain if the couple leaves the influence of family. I can think of a doctor and a pharmacist I know both getting divorced ( two separate) couples. The male doctor got FOMO and was not thrilled about his good girl wife and had a fling. The pharmacist wanted very much to make her family happy and went along for the ride even though right from the start she knew it felt like a mistake. She is remarried now to a different guy who is more outwardly western and less wigged out about being married to a cute nerd girl.

GridReXX · 2021-05-19T13:18:48+00:00

Not from that culture but answering

Arranged marriages sounds like when my aunt suggests I marry the nice young man at church who helped her to her car.

Except in other cultures the two actually follow through on it and become maritally engaged within 3 months of the first date.

This has actually happened to me a couple of times. The problem is all of the moms/aunts/grandmoms find the same 8 guys to be “very handsome dutifully employed kind young man” for their young daughters/nieces.

Essentially it’s the 80/20 rule all over again 😂🤣. So our version of arranged doesn’t work out either because the elder women are identifying the top young husband material and it’s not enough to go around. And more importantly, those 22 year old guys at church are out Friday/Sat night living their best whore lives not trying to settle down any time soon. The church elder women don’t see that part.

ChiBron86 · 2021-05-19T17:52:26+00:00

Indian here who was in an arranged marriage last year for all of 3 months. Yep, lasted 3 months lol

The process for how we came together was typical. I was given the girl's information from an Indian lady who arranges people for a living. Lots of Indian "aunties" are in this business. The girl's biodata consists of her name, age, education, residence, family history and pictures of her. If you like what you see, you let your family know that you are interested in getting to know the girl. The girl also gets my biodata. If she likes what she sees, she lets her family know the same thing. It's not "forced" like a lot of people tend to think it is. If you don't like what you see, you are perfectly allowed to say no. The guy more so than the girl. The pressure comes from the fact that you HAVE to get married to somebody, eventually. There's no I-will-wait-until-I-meet-somebody or I-have-no-interest-in-marriage. Nope, you must get married. That's where the "forced" part comes from.

Anyway, once me and the girl displayed interest in each other, our families got in contact. The parents spoke to each other and when that goes well, an in-person meeting is arranged between the 2 families. In my case, I got to speak to the girl on the phone 3 times prior to seeing her in person. The phone calls were to establish getting to know each other, compatibility and all that. She seemed like a fine person. Then we met in person, which went fine too.

The whole process went very smoothly, in fact. With one issue though. I had no actual interest in an arranged marriage. I'm an Indian Muslim who moved to the US at 13. My family is very traditional and all my siblings did things the traditional way. They either got arranged with or chose Indian partners to settle down with. And are happily married to this day. Me on the other hand experienced a different life. I basically don't believe in religion and by my 20's, I was dating non-muslim/Indian girls exclusively. Even wanted to marry a couple of 'em, but couldn't because of my background. My family is completely unaware of this life of mine. When they began showing me girls to get arranged to, I would say 'no' to every single one of 'em. But they wore me down and I eventually caved in and said yes to one. And I chose the conservative muslim girl who grew up in the middle east and had very normal interests (netflix, ig, eating out, shopping). Figuring it would be easier to make it work with such girl, even though I had absolutely 0 interest.

And that's essentially what she saw too once we were married and finally spending time in person. Here's the thing about arranged marriages, there is NO dating going on at any point pre-marriage. The first time you spend time in person without family around is AFTER you get married. The most you can do prior to that is talk on the phone. So once we were finally together, saying I felt hollow around her would be an understatement. There was no spark of any sort. Mind you, there is nothing wrong with her. She looked decent and was a fine person. We even had some stuff in common. I just had no interest. I could be wrong, but I believe in most arranged marriages, the guy and the girl essentially have little to no experience with the opposite sex. So when they do get married, they are ecstatic to simply be with someone. Everything is new and exciting. That obviously wasn't the case for me (it was for her though), which is where everything went wrong for us, I think. One major turn-off for me was how clueless she was sexually. Like, literally knew nothing. And this woman was close to 30 years old. I just couldn't get past that. And obviously, when there's little physical intimacy right from get-go, the marriage is going nowhere. It eventually came to an end after 3 months of hell. I got hell from everybody for marrying her and then claiming to not be interested in her. But it was never really about her. I wouldn't have been interested in ANY girl through an arranged marriage.

My advice to other Indians or Pakistanis who'll be doing arranged marriages is to KNOW yourself. If you are relatively inexperienced when it comes to the opposite sex, I think it's a decent option for you. But if you are experienced, it may be hard for you to get excited by what will essentially be a stranger. You'll just end up comparing them to past men/women in your life. And they'll never be able to measure up from an emotional standpoint. Because the people from your past you CHOSE because you already liked them. That won't be the case in an arranged marriage. A few phone conversations and a couple of supervised in-person meetings mean nothing.

asdf333aza · 2021-05-19T15:57:05+00:00

There was a reddit story floating around with a guy who had an arranged marriage. They were supposed to both be virgins. Dude was some kind of middle eastern and a full blown doctor. So she hit the jackpot with him.

Anyways their families meet and they present their daughter as a Virgin and all around good girl. Buttttt, turns out she was a Hoe in college and got gangbanged and sucked a bunch of guys off. And there was video of it.

Well they get married and have a kid. And those videos resurface and make their way to her husband. Who proceeds to dump her and abandon her and the child. And her family is dishonored cause they were seen as a part of their daughters lie. The husbands family rejects her and the child. And the guy moves back to their home country where he is free from the US family court. And their marriage is dissolved in their home country.

So she ends up a single momma and she and her family are disgraced in their community because she lied about the arrange marriage and presented herself as something she was not.

wooden-drunk · 2021-05-19T18:20:51+00:00

Arranged marriages are a complete shitshow. It's just another part of living under your parents' thumb your entire sheltered life that leads to a loveless relationship where you perpetuate your parents' abuse back onto your children. Let's break down what will happen if you get an arranged marriage (my parents are indian so that's my perspective idk about other cultures).

Two american born: You're both autistic since you went down this route and either don't understand or don't like american dating culture. Your kids are fucked unless you raise them in one of the few enclaves.

American + fob: You're getting fleeced for a green card don't even bother.

I understand there are a lot of brown incels out there but your life is probably going to be worse if you go down this route.

Fobs will try to tell you it's not all bad and shit but they're not capable of understanding other cultures. Just look at how indians have integrated into american culture (lol) and compare it to every other group. Honestly I think it's abusive to refuse to assimilate at all to your neighbors' culture but then have kids who are going to be part of it. Apart from being socially stunted they will feel unloved (western) because their parents are stuck in an arranged marriage (eastern "love") and there is no reconciliation there.

_that_dam_baka_ · 2021-05-19T23:30:58+00:00

I'm Indian.

how does it work? Do you get a say in who you marry?

In rural areas, your parents tell you type getting married, you don't really get to talk to the person, but you know everything about them materially.

I'm from a city, you can get the other person's number and talk to them, and you know everything about their finances, which is usually the primary reason for marriage.

My brother and SIL meet at a mall with family members. They were encouraged to talk by taking a round around the floor while everyone sat in the food court. When they came back and they weren't sure, my sil's dad told them to take another round (was she testing a shoe?). As you can guess she's my sil now and he's made a lot of effort to get along. More than what he had be willing to do to get along with family members. Point is: she's had a positive impact on him.

do you think the practice has benefits?

You know their finances. And usually family situation. All the things that seen to be “private” in an American relationship are on the table. Maybe it's materialistic, but no one wants to marry a broke person.

Any drawbacks?

You don't know them personally by default. Things that are taboo like drinking, smoking etc aren't always disclosed with honesty. And you need to talk to them yourself and take initiative if you want to get to know their hobbies and stuff.

And dowry. Congrats to how it's approached in love marriages, it's much better in communities where they talk it over in advance and don't cause problems later.

Our neighbour is a couple where the wife got the house as a wedding gift. It's in her name and her mother lives with them.

Story time:

Imagine you're a girl. You introduce your parents to this dude you've knows for a while but you clear XYZ exams before he does. He gets pissy but still you love him so it's all good. Also he has connections and recommended you for your first job. Your parents agree for the marriage. So do his. Then he keeps stalling. Your parents offer to get you married in the local temple if he really wants to get married. He mentions that in his community, he'd get a car. Then he comes to you and tells you to quit your job to take care of his mother. You revise, so he goes to the person who's hired you and tells them to forte you, cz you came on HIS recommendation. Your boss asks you if that's your choice and you finally ditch him. And gets another job cz that was embarrassing as hell.

Based on a true story. She's doing okay financially and about to get married this year. He got married a few months after they broke up. He's Punjabi so he probably got that car he wanted.

There's this concept called stree dhan. It's when the bride gets to keep the wedding gifts for her to herself. So the neighbour aunty owns her own house. Not sure what happens to dowry these days.

.

how does it compare in your view with western views on marriage for love?

Americans aren't exactly oblivious to the flaws in love. 😋

Seriously though, I think most people with long happy marriages are ones who are willing to discuss long term plans instead of stupid grand gestures like public proposals designed to pressure the proposee into marriage. That's what comes to mind when I think of marrying for love.

You don't Marry for love, you marry for tax purposes. Marriage is a legal agreement. There's nothing preventing you from living together forever without marriage. The legal document is unnecessary of its just about emotion, right? Isn't it just a trap?

I think marriage is a partnership first. And no one really believes in love. The idea that you don't or shouldn't look at material things is stupid, imo.

As far as I'm aware: if you bring in a person who's got most of the qualities your parents value (could be looks, family money, job, etc.) there won't be too much of a problem. In most cases. A lot of parents/family members would just be pissed that you dared to find a partner yourself. Even if that partner makes more money in a month than they do in a year.

One thing that definitely leads to an objection is if they belong to a different religion.

_lemazaki · 2021-05-19T13:47:47+00:00

our way might not be exactly #winning either.

Dude. Once you got individual freedom... nothing "needs to work". lol

DetectivePure503 · 2021-05-19T13:49:32+00:00

Forcing teenagers/young adults to marry each other won‘t decrease the divorce rate of western civilization. If anything, it would increase it, because why should you stay married to someone you don‘t really love if you don‘t have to. I‘m not from India, but even I know that a divorce has a big impact on the Social status of the families involved, which is why they‘d rather stay together than getting divorced I guess. Western culture however is based on freedom, people rather decide on their own to do something that might not be bad for them than doing something they feel forced to do, although it might be good for them. Also being divorced doesn’t make you a social outcast in western cultures. Sure it feels bad, especially when there are kids involved, but obviously being married to someone you don‘t love anymore or never loved at all is worse than that.

xQueen-Bx · 2021-05-19T15:02:33+00:00

im not 100% sure im right about this, but jewish marriage is more like presenting men and women with SUITABLE matches to click with i think this is even presented in that film, rather than the families arranging a specific match between two people and they are compelled to marry each other. its more matchmaking than "Arrangement" which is more in keeping with western style courtship of the past, where the family gatekept the young men who had access to their daughters for them to fall in love with. once the pool of eligible matches is deemed "Suitable" it doesnt really matter which ones pick each other

Stevefr0mYellowstone · 2021-05-19T16:30:02+00:00

I have no actual experience with arragned marriages and am from the US where its obviously isn't common, but I think the way to look at it is arranged marriage is handling marriage the way marriage was originally intended. Marriage wasn't intended for love/lust and romance. It was for monetary and societal reasons. Marriage would be one's duty, not so much one's desire. It would be your duty to get married to this other person, have kids with them and so on not because you personally wanted to but you were responsible for doing so to help the family and society as a whole.

Marriage has almost entirely moved away from that. People get married becuase they are "in love" with each other. Which as we clearly see, doesn't last, as divorces are so common place. So whether an arranged marriage would work really depends on whether both the husband and wife buy into what marriage was really there for, and are in societies that embrace that. If they don't buy into that being what marriage is, then there no point in going through with it. Its just going to result in disappointment and misery.

ex_red_black_piller · 2021-05-19T17:25:42+00:00

> how does it work? Do you get a say in who you marry?

Depends on the family. Some families put a ton of pressure on their kids to say yes. I'd say a minority are cool and won't, most will pressure kids at least a little bit.

But yes, in most cases you have a say and if you have a backbone, you have a veto.

> do you think the practice has benefits? Any drawbacks?

Benefits: keeps people realistic, there is a massive contrast between the unlimited power I have seen women wield on dating apps and the humility they have on arranged marriage websites. (This is what convinces me that if men stopped being horndogs online, women would lose their power immediately).

Drawback: family pressures, lying and manipulation by any and all sides to make the relationship happen. It can also get really transactional.
> how does it compare in your view with western views on marriage for love?

Can't say for sure right now.

hopemoom · 2021-05-19T17:44:56+00:00

Arranged marriages work best in religious communities where divorces are discouraged. They do have more community support since it's the community that arranged them. So in a way, you can ask for help from the community so divorce risks might decrease. In romantic marriages, it's mostly about the 2 individuals so if they don't get support from family and friends, there's more reason to divorce especially if divorces aren't discouraged. But there are tons of happy couples that weren't arranged and also many unhappy arranged couples out there.

TheOffice_Account · 2021-05-19T17:55:53+00:00

Behavioral econ has entered the chat

This somewhat relates to the paradox of choice:

Situation A: You have 3-5 options, and you choose one.
Situation B: You have 100 options, and you choose one.

People in Situation A are invariably happier than people in Situation B, even (a) when people are asked which of the two situations they would prefer, they say they want Situation B, and (b) when the Situation A contains the best options of Situation B.

As a rule, most people don't know what makes them happy, and make terrible choices 🤷‍♂️ People feel that having the choice to date from 10,000 people in apps will make them happier, but six months after they get their dream person, they are wondering if there was someone else on the apps that they missed.

The only exception is folks who are looking for something very specific, for example (I only date red-heads below 5'0, but weighing above 150lbs, etc), can maximize their happiness through having a lot of choice, but it doesn't seem to maximize happiness for others.

eveleaf · 2021-05-19T18:15:04+00:00

I'm generally wary of arguments that assume higher divorce rates = bad, and lower divorce rates = good, without taking a closer look.

For many demographics where divorce rates are lower, marriage satisfaction is also fairly low. Unhappy people resigning themselves to stay unhappily yoked because of family, religious, financial or societal pressure is not a win, in my opinion.

For every divorce out there, you have at least one (if not two) partners who have weighed the pros and cons, and believe they will be happier apart, then staying together. And if they are in fact correct, and they are better off apart then together, isn't it a net good to divorce?

I would be interested in longterm studies asking divorcees if they regretted the divorce, 5 or 10, or even 20 years later. How many would say, it would have been better to stay together after all? Maybe I'm wrong, but my guess is that the regret factor would be fairly low. Most people do not spend their lives regretting leaving an unhappy situation.

words-for-blood · 2021-05-19T19:33:19+00:00

In an arranged marriage, especially in a culture where a gentleman may have several wives, is not based in love. Rather, the goal is child rearing and 'success' of the bloodline. Therefore, you don't generally love your husband, but you love your kids. And you make sure your kids get the same thing as the kids he has with his other wives. It's less a love-marriage and more a business-marriage, especially in cultures where women can't work, and their 'job' is creating children. Your husband is more like a business partner who helps you or hinders your success.

CharlesElliotFiddler · 2021-05-19T19:47:25+00:00

Arranged marriage is different from forced marriages.

While it is certainly true that all forced marriages are arranged marriages, not all arranged marriages are forced marriages.

Arranged marriages disgust us because it doesn't appeal to our taste in democracy. We see it as fundamentally unfair. While it is true that not that long ago, marriages were very much coordinated by the parents of the spouses, this has dramatically decreased.

The opposite of arranged marriage is a more natural form of sexual selection. At the same time, it is more chaotic, looser, and has more breakups. We are so individualistic that we would rather break up with somebody and find somebody else rather than fix the relationship. In the old days when the Catholic Church was in power, this was something unthinkable, it was considered 'unholy'.

But we don't have this anymore. We lose our virginities when we are in high school and from there on, its a bumpy ride trying to avoid veneral diseases, unwanted pregnancies, court orders, dating app problems, cheating, crazy in-laws, etc...

I have a single friend from New York who is in her early 20s and her parents are divorced. Her father, a middle-aged man, struck up a relationship with a girl one year older than his daughter, and during the quarantine of 2020, she had to spend time in this awkward social dynamic. But in other cultures, this wouldn't occur because the mother and father would probably not get divorced, and the daughter would already be in an engagement with the son of the parent's friends.

Dating, a more natural form of sexual selection since it is unregulated by the parents, church, or other institution, has its benefits, but it also over-idealizes relationships. It gives us the concept of 'soul-mate' and the belief that we should be happy when the truth of the matter is that a truly good and solid relationship based on love and mutual friendship is the exception, not the rule.

CrazyBaby8891 · 2021-05-19T20:39:13+00:00

I do not hail from such a culture and in all honesty never have been in favor of arranged marriage. I've recently read enlightening comments in a sub titled r/ABCDesis, most of whom in more than one thread pointed out the problematic nature of such lackluster utilitarian unions and the pressures to go along with their families' wishes (and many here are likewise pointing out those concerns.) One in particular on that sub summed it up well: "I had a decision to make and I chose my love relationship, and I'd honestly suggest that to anyone who's in the same predicament. When you're 80 years old would you rather look back at a life of marrying someone you truly love and spending your life by their side or marrying someone you don't love and be lukewarm at best and miserable at worst in your marriage just to make your backwards parents happy? I can't speak to every single person in this situation but for most that would be my advice." Some will say that love can grow after the wedding and that may occur in a few cases, but imho it's far too big a risk to take on for the rest of one's life.

I wouldn't say the process of matchmaking in and of itself is always a bust, but in order for it to work the couple should never be pressured to conform and/or rushed to meet a wedding deadline; their relationship should still form organically as a love marriage and they should experience enough one-on-one interaction to really get to know each other and determine for themselves whether or not they've fallen in love and are compatible. One commenter pointed out here about such a success story in which the couple have been childhood friends and apparently fell in love with each other naturally. Unfortunately that's not usually how it happens in practice, from what I can tell. And while people tend to only perceive arranged marriages as occurring in non-western cultures, there are other groups involved albeit not as common: the Duggars and other Americans from their religion, for example, obviously practice arranged marriage.

As for the oft-repeated divorce statistics, those are not necessarily limited to first marriages therefore remarriages are likely skewing the numbers to make divorce look more prevalent than it actually is (and there is no guarantee that all of those divorced couples married for love anyway; several of those could have well been utilitarian marriages too just without the cultural pressures.)

DaphneDK42 · 2021-05-20T01:08:51+00:00

My wife's sister and her cousin are in arranged marriages (not together lol). The sister now has been with her husband for 13 years. They have three children, and are as happy as can be. It was arranged by her mother and the husband's mother. They only met each other a few weeks before marriage. They were dirt poor back then, doing better now (by local standards). He is a good man, works hard, etc.

The cousin got married last year. She is now pregnant. She had some boyfriends before, but apparently they were no good and had other girls on the side, etc. So her parents arranged for her to be married to her uncle. But he is only some 13 years older. She is 20. Now she is pregnant, and they're buying a bigger house. They appear to be super in love, we went with them to Angor Wat for a week. He is a good man so I guess her parents choose better than the ones she found herself. Her sister was also supposed to have been married last year, but they had to postpone because of Corona.

This is Cambodia. In Cambodia the man pays bride price (which can amount to several years income), and the bride has to be a virgin. The wedding is big and expensive. They are buddhists. Divorce is rare.

Its not like they just meet each other on the wedding night, or that it is forced marriage. They spend some time together first, some weeks or months before, where the man visits the girl's family from time to time, to see if they want to be together. But its pretty clear what the parents look for in a husband & wife for their children. He should be steady-not-exciting, hardworking, not violent, etc. She should be good with money (which the woman handle), a good house wife, not a slut. When the man and woman find each other without parental intervention, the parents also have to accept.

Ppdebateismental · 2021-05-20T01:27:19+00:00

A beautiful talk today by Anna Sale, she went to a wedding soon after her divorce and the minister said,

“Love doesn’t grow marriage, marriage grows love”

Something to think about. I think many arranged marriages can grow love.

camelCaseIsWebScale · 2021-05-20T03:25:52+00:00

my understanding was they wanted to marry each other as opposed to it being a situation where she was set up with a stranger.

While this kind of case is still relatively less common back in homeland, the bride / bridegroom still have a say whether they prefer, at least in progressive communities.

Advantage:

People rather not waste their entire youth looking for a partner, and work on wealth and status, because social mobility is very important in India.

No, being virgin at 23 is not an insult in India. Even if you're attractive, if you're in upper echelons of academics, you are likely to be prioritising career (at least in the circles I see around me).

Disadvantages:

You may not know who you're getting tied with or whether they are compatible. May lead to broken or disinterested life but divorce is still rare because it's taboo.

You might be getting a sloppy second who enjoyed with a charismatic thug type in college and now settling with you because your status and her parents. (Betabuxx in this sub terminology)

However, half due to traditions and half due to superficiality of modern dating / "love", elders love to brag that arranged marriages are still more stable than "love marriages". However they will not have problems with you getting married with someone you found yourself, as long as they are from same caste 😂😂.

how does it compare in your view with western views on marriage for love?

West is "Do It Yourself" whereas Indian society is much more egiltarian. We live with parents until we complete education. We are not pressured to earn for our own education as long as parents can get an "education loan". You are not even pressured to find a partner yourself. Among my friends circle who are top tier in academia who are also conventionally attractive and pretty confident, none have seriously bothered about finding "love" till now. (Even the mindset of Indian popular culture is that you don't look for love, it happens spontaneously 😀). Our culture, at least in middle class and upper middle class, emphasizes social mobility and sacrifices some other conveniences for that.

poppy_blu · 2021-05-19T15:08:19+00:00

I'm not from a family like this, but I married into one. My hubby is Indian and his parents, and older sister had arranged marriages, his younger sister is unmarried and I believe their parents do not want to arrange for her (they hope she can find someone on her own).

Atleast in our community, the way it works is you ASK your parents to find a suitable partner for you. My SIL was 27 and unsuccessful in meeting someone naturally (family/friends, work, etc.). Since she felt like she was approaching a later age, she asked her parents to arrange for her. Her parents knew a family who had an unmarried son around the same age from a similar background (Pakistani Muslim Urdu speaking). They set up for a dinner between the ENTIRE family for everyone to get to know eachother. The two exchanged numbers and met one on one over a few months in order to get to know eachother before deciding. She said yes and they got married a few weeks later. But she did NOT have to accept. In fact I've heard it's very uncommon to accept on the first person you get set up with. Her parents (my inlaws) were actually set up in the same way your friend was, knew eachother growing up and once they were old enough the parents stepped in and asked if they wanted to get married and they both said yes lol. So you absolutely get a say in who you get to marry. If you see a situation where someone doesn't, that is a FORCED marriage not arranged!

I think it does have a lot of benefits. It has emphasis on marrying basically two families, not just individuals. I think it's helpful to have a good relationship between both parents or even just general understanding for eachother and no weirdness between parties. I can only give my account of this but, being in a relationship that's marriage focused really makes you look inwards on how you will always be commited to making it work. It made me think deeply of how I'd live my life with this person forever and thought how can we ALWAYS make this work together? I really had to break down my ego and learn to accept criticism and work on my flaws, and he also had to do the same. I think that's why it works because ultimately you are kinda forced to make it work lol.

Drawbacks... You could totally be forced into a marriage you don't want to be in to please your parents. You could not be ready emotionally to get married and understand what it really takes to make a marriage work. You could rush into marriage because of wanting sex. You could pick a bummy girl/guy and want an annulment. You could think "oh I can make this work" but the other partner is not willing at all to put in any work. You could overlook redflags because you want to "make it work" and get married. You could feel a lot of pressure from your community. Not a drawback per say but I've heard many stories of people being forced to marry and their new partner is still dating someone else and texting them daily and refusing to accept the marriage. Divorce is totally a thing in arranged marriages, I know of two people aged 20 who are divorced because their arrangement didnt work out. It's just typically done when they are young and kept on the hush hush. Not a lot divorce after 10-25 years of marriage the way we do in the west. (Atleast I haven't heard of).

Obviously I'm not Indian and come from a place where love marriages are normal, but I've always been marriage focused. We got married after one year of dating when I was 22. I think love marriages are fine obviously but I don't see good examples around me. A lot of my friends and family are kind of just floating around with the same person and constantly bicker. No one seems to be in "love" they all just seem to tolerate eachother. No one seems committed either. They all have these unbalanced roles in their relationships and it just seems like agony lol. The only good relationships examples I see are from my husbands family/community where people actually understand what commitment is, and work with their gender roles as opposed to against it.

MakeMoneyNotWar · 2021-05-19T14:02:19+00:00

I have a few friends (Pakistani Muslims) who went down that route. However, they were on the more liberal end where arranged really meant that parents and family members make introductions and set them up on dates, but they could decide for themselves whether or not they wanted to keep dating. They started the whole process in their mid-20's, after graduation and careers had taken off. In my limited data set, they seem pretty happy. It's very different from more conservative Muslims where the family may have total control and girls may be married off at 16 or something.

I would say it really works well for some of the more reserved guys because they wouldn't be struggling to get dates in the first place. It also works for women in some ways because if a guy tried to pump and dump a girl, word would get out quick and the whole family would be ostracized.

Mustbeaight · 2021-05-19T15:49:44+00:00

Lol marriages in the west fail because people think marriage is about “love” an “attraction” it’s about duty and responsibility.. I don’t care how hot your spouse is.. you’ll get tired of the mf or bitch.. there’s no way you keep that spark going for 10 consecutive years when you watch your spouse sat on the toilets every morning picking their nose and with the worse morning breath.. at one point shit becomes about knowing your role and duties within the marriage.. if you think the honeymoon lasts for 10 years à la Disney princess.. please don’t marry

WilliamWyattD · 2021-05-19T13:35:46+00:00

I think that in the right cultural context, arranged marriage can be very good. But in today's world, as societies have scaled up in size, and modern technology and western ideals have permeated and weakened many traditional cultures in different ways, it is easy for the process to have become corrupted. So often they can become very bad things.

Also, from a woman's point of view, most arranged marriages are going to be about supporting and enforcing a mating and family system that will naturally sacrifice her sexual desire more readily than male. This is primarily because, women being pickier, female desire is harder to satisfy. And also, related to the fact that women are pickier, men tend to have more extramarital ways to satisfy themselves sexually than women if the marriage isn't doing it. (Primarily prostitution, which doesn't work for women precisely because they are pickier.)

Ultimately, this isn't a big conspiracy against women. Given female selectivity and their role in reproduction, it has simply always been much harder to satisfy female sexual desire while also building a stable social and family fabric. But more and more in today's world, women are not willing to sacrifice their sexuality the way they used to. It's a fundamental tension that we haven't found a great solution to yet. It would be fantastic if we could find a gender and mating system that produces stable societies and families but that no longer requires women to sacrifice significantly more than men do when it comes to sexual desire and satisfaction. Perhaps this is a pipe dream, but one can hope.

undead_pavanayi · 2021-05-19T13:48:16+00:00

To answer the last part, what I think about arranged marriages vs "love" marriages.

A few years ago, when I was in an LTR, I believed that marrying for "love" was somehow superior and believed that we would have a "happily ever after".I was "blue-pilled" and had "one-itis" as the internet would say.

That ended and we went out separate ways. Today I believe that marriage is an "institution" not a relationship and success depends on how that institution is run regardless of whether it was arranged or not. Love and attraction would fade after sometime. How much you are committed into making your venture (yes it's probably like running a business) work determines your success - and both parties need to pull their weight.

Throwaway_for_redd · 2021-05-19T14:12:33+00:00

The divorce rate isn’t and hasn’t been 40-50 percent for a long time. Last year it was actually 2.7 out of a thousand. Why is this myth still a big thing and accepted as a fact, wtf

relish5k · 2021-05-19T15:29:56+00:00

I think arranged marriages are probably the best option for 50% of the population, and are in many ways more set up for success (e.g. not getting divorced) than love marriages.

It's all about expectation setting. If you just want to find someone to be a partner with, and share a home and children, have some sex and some closeness, then it's definitely a good approach, as long as you have enough chemistry with your spouse and they're not an abusive ahole. But a non-arranged marriage can also fall subject to a lack of chemistry and abuse.

Today we expect too much from our partners - we fall in love because of how we feel, and get married partially because we want to preserve that feeling forever, but that's not realistic. At least people who opt in to an arranged marriage are on the same page about that.

thegreyone3000 · 2021-05-19T15:43:41+00:00

Hmm, let me ask. What is the whole point of being married anyway? What purpose is it for?

Is it for the whole fairytale bs Disney feeds you?

Or is it to build a better future with someone you enjoy spending time with? - as the saying goes, two heads are better than one.

I imagine it’s the latter, so in theory, I can see why arranged marriages could be a better option, if chosen correctly that is.

But who knows, plenty of good comments here.

regularmaaz · 2021-05-19T16:40:20+00:00

Arranged marriage is not forced marriage just so everyone knows. It's like tinder but your family involved

redback-spider · 2021-05-19T17:45:43+00:00

The misconception is of disneyification of marriage. Marriage is a contract to birth children and benefit formost them, instead disney redefined it to be about some absurd not retainable bullshit as love.

Love will go away in every marriage eventually at best you have partnership, respect, friendship, if you are not fullfilled sexually or so, especially as guy you can fuck somewhere outside...

Therefor logically aranged marriages without the women having 50 people before marriage and having lost all capability to getting bounding to a man is destined to fail.

Inevitable_Gain_7456 · 2021-05-19T13:43:47+00:00

Rather a Russian mail order bride. Tall, Blonde and Lithe. She gets her hypergamy.

wtknight · 2021-05-19T14:14:02+00:00

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cunningcaring · 2021-05-19T16:56:44+00:00

Your assumption is that a marriage should last forever. America should last for as long as it makes sense. A divorce rate at 50% is not a sign of failure. Divorce is a sign of a couple successfully renegotiating their relationships.

mmeIsniffglue · 2021-05-19T17:07:57+00:00

I‘m middle eastern and almost every marriage in my family was arranged. Not always by the couples' families tho. My mom just met my dad, saw he was good with money and said "why not" (the families have to approve of the marriage first obviously). My aunt saw my uncle wearing a fashionable Jacket at a party and wanted to marry him on the spot. They often arrange it themselves, so yes, they get to choose. My uncles on my mom's side just called up their sister and told her to find them a wife. She did and they exchanged contacts, Boom! married. They don’t spend much time getting to know each other, my parents married within three months. My mom openly admits to not loving him the first few months of their marriage, she says love comes with time. Arranged marriages aren’t a must in my family tho, my uncle dated a German woman for 7 years before they married, it’s just more convenient to some.

It's really risky tho, you don’t know the person. You can’t know if you’ll be compatible later on. My parents were lucky, they work pretty good together. My aunt, the one who fell for the jacket, was less fortunate and is pretty much miserable now. She wanted to call off the engagement one month in, but my mom convinced her it was too late lol. Oh well. Poor aunty

I don’t know for sure if my parents really love each other. Sure there are probably arranged couples that fell madly in love with each other but honestly I wouldn’t risk it. Even if you grew up with the person, you have no idea how they are as a partner. People are much too complex.

poppy_blu · 2021-05-19T18:11:01+00:00

I specifically told my ex not to get a wife when he went to his home country and he got a wife when he went to his home country :(

So I am against for personal reasons.

MGTOWManofMystery · 2021-05-19T19:22:40+00:00

Why get married at all? We are all equal. Why can't we just come together and go apart like they used to in hunter-gatherer societies? Why cling to such an antiquated institution at all?

mss_Jolene · 2021-05-19T19:49:29+00:00

I’m from the northern part of Nigeria (Hausa) typically arrange marriage over here is meant to sit right with you the bride/Groom.

I can’t over emphasize the negative impact of arrange marriage . We have one of the highest divorce cases and arrange marriage contribute greatly to this societal menace. A Lot of women who are divorced end up struggling with life as they lack financial stability and economic development. These women and children becames vulnerable in the society.

I’m not saying I haven’t seen any that works out, I have, but that’s like 1 in every 3 arrange marriage.

Let’s also remember, some certain qualities you’re looking for in a partner might not be there or even the basic human attributes “empathy and kindness”

Over the past decades, women in northern Nigerian (Hausa) have started speaking up against some of the northern norms that’s actually benefit little to the department of marriage, family and decent environment.

Marriage is too much of a great bond for you to just pick “Mr A for Mr B”

alialahmad1997 · 2021-05-19T20:35:32+00:00

i am a syrian and the problem in your first question is that u assume that the people in third world country have the same mentalities

irl there is great variation in my community the girl decide(not arrange) the parents can veto though

un other the parents decide the girl can veto

in third both decide

in forth the girl has no say (u can swap the girl with the boy and u would be somewhat still right )

for if it has benefits well it sure do dont get me wrong i hate it but it has proven to be more stable people who practice it has family mentality not most find my true soul mate mentality the decision is not based on emotion so its less likely to fade away

the family intervene in case of troubles( how do they intervene is dependent on the comunity )

for the third part i think arranged is better than bad marriages but worst than successful one

u basically trade the risk for happiness /missury with content its better for some worst for all

of cours when its really bad is when the partners cant leave each others specially when some one is abusive

BrownEyedGringa · 2021-05-19T21:57:41+00:00

Hey this happens in my culture! I'd like to offer a slightly more positive perspective.

I will likely have an arranged marriage because I chose to get a graduate degree and if I go the dating route, there's no way I'd be married before 35 (because you typically date for 5 years or so before getting married in American culture). There's no time for me to date right now (I'm 26). I have no intention of being a forever girlfriend.

If I go the arranged marriage route, the courting period is usually 6 months - 12 months before you tie the knot. Any longer, and your family gets mad at the other family lol and calls things off.

There's no "leading people on" or "forever girlfriend" or "placeholder partner" type of thing. The way it works wouldn't allow for that.

Arranged marriage for marriage-minded women is far better. You don't have to "give it up" before marriage (i.e. not supposed to have sex before marriage), and as someone who treats sex like a Big Deal, it's perfect. I do not want to have sex with anyone who isn't wholly/totally committed to me.

Although sexual incompatibility is a risk you're taking, actual anatomical incompatibilities are quite rare, actually. If there's a serious issue that a man didn't tell me about, there is always divorce, but I find most guys are pretty honest and upfront during the arranged marriage process since they want things to work.

rilakkumkum · 2021-05-19T23:26:27+00:00

Arranged marriage is different from forced. It’s literally just being set up together.

Most people do get a say, like what type of person they’d like.

There’s good benefits, especially for those that were too busy to date (people in higher schooling/focused on their businesses) or are from cultures where dating is looked down upon.

I think arranged marriage is p smart because most of the cultures that have it, family is already a big part of your life. Involving the family in the process ensures less chance of getting paired with an asshole and they already know the type of people you’d work well with.

ryandiy · 2021-05-19T23:38:58+00:00

The only women I’ve wanted to marry would have been terrible choices for marriage.

So maybe I have have a broken picker. And maybe young people high on hormones and lust aren’t competent at picking life partners.

CraptainToad · 2021-05-20T02:18:05+00:00

Ahh as the resident Short Indian but not incel guy this is a fun topic to discuss!

how does it work? Do you get a say in who you marry?

You get much more of a say nowadays than before. The process is less forced and more akin to potential people being picked out for you. There are three methods of arrangement mainly used these days.

One is that your parents go through their social network to find someone for you. Here your parents act like Tinder. All arranged marriages I've seen irl have been from this.

After that is going through professionals called "Rishtas". This is a person whose job is solely to find you someone. You send them information and a picture of yourself and then it goes on from there. I recommend watching Indian Matchmaking on Netflix for this

The third one is using online sites like Shaadi.com. These don't work well from what I've seen.

In all cases it's up to the people getting married to make the final choice

do you think the practice has benefits? Any drawbacks?

The main benefit is that it helps you find people who have the same culture/values/religion as you. Your parents probably know you better than whatever algorithms dating apps use.

The drawback is that even if they aren't technically forced, there can be a lot of coercive pressure by family to get married. Also, it puts a damper on the motivation to lift/have a good style/develop social skills for Indian diasporic men since they can just import a wife from India.

how does it compare in your view with western views on marriage for love?

I don't really think it's any better or worse. The cultural pressure to stay married results in people being in long unhappy marriages, but it also gives a motivation to really try in your marriage.

About half the arranged marriages I've seen have been successful, where both parties are happy.

PsychologicalEbb9953 · 2021-05-20T13:12:40+00:00

1) It works differently depending on how religious/traditional your family is. A *traditional* arranged marriages back in the days meant that the groom and the bride didn't even see each other much less speak or know each other. Usually the families would meet and decide among themselves if they are compatible because most of the time it is a marriage/ alliance between two families and not the groom and bride, plus the bride usually moved in with the groom's family so having a similar caste/culture/religion was a must so she can seamlessly adjust. Back in the day, the groom and especially the bride had no say in whether they want to marry that person or if at all, marry. It was more like getting a Russian roulette roommate assigned to you-if you're lucky you'll get on well, if not....eh, you just have to suck it up. Nowadays, the bride and groom usually not only get to see and know each other, but also "date" ( long engagement)before they marry. They can also reject the match if they don't like it. But the old way is still prevalent in small towns and villages.

2) It has the benefit of already having your family on board with the match if you like the person first of all, so family support is guaranteed throughout your marriage. They'll even try as hard as possible to mend any conflict between you and not let it ever get to the point of divorce usually, which is why arranged marriages have a low divorce rate along with the fact that both of you come from a similar set of culture and values where you consider marriage as a sacred bond only to be broken in extreme situations. The other benefits I can think of are not dying alone lol if you cant get girl/guy on your own and slowly falling in love with your partner instead of out of it like in most marriages. The drawbacks are that it is very hard to get out of, your family on either side will consider it a huge shame upon themselves if you get divorced. Divorce is usually taboo. Other drawbacks are usually about desi toxicity but I dont want to get into that.

3) I think it should be used as a last resort and it usually is, it's very rare to hear someone from a liberal family say they want to have an arranged marriage. Its not as easy-breezy. Dating is taboo, once your family knows you are dating, even if they made the match, they want you to get married as soon as possible to seal the deal. The pressure is immense. You can't just keep dating and rejecting one match after the other or it will make you and your family look trashy and easy. You can only date the match if you commit to marrying them shortly, yeah no sweat. There are tons of other things, but this already as long as it gets.

Title	Let’s talk about arranged marriages
Author	poppy_blu
Upvotes	72
Comments	274
Date	May 19, 2021 1:03 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/ng594z/lets_talk_about_arranged_marriages/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/lets-talk-about-arranged-marriages.754263 https://theredarchive.com/post/754263

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