Why cOmMuNiCaTe simply doesn't work. Extras is from "Men who hate women and the women who love them" by Susan Forward and Joan Torres

understatedalways · 2021-02-09T11:11:49+00:00

I’ve found that with very few exceptions trying to communicate my needs and boundaries repeatedly to a man is pointless. If they don’t listen the first time, they simply will never listen no matter how many heartfelt “communication sessions” you have. Men will get away with what you let them get away with.

WagonsIntenseSpeed · 2021-02-09T12:48:11+00:00

This exactly! Just yesterday I saw a relationship post where a woman asked what she should do after her fiancé coerced her into having sex when she repeatedly said no because she had the flu. This man then had the nerve to kick her out after the deed was done and make her sleep on the couch because he "didn't want to catch it". Clearly, a relationship with a misogynistic pos isn't worth saving and yet I still found comments encouraging her to communicate with him and tell him this behaviour isn't right. My god.

Kinkwhatyouthink · 2021-02-09T14:26:20+00:00

Last night I had one that I'd been talking to for less than 24 hours hit me with the following.

We were talking about DVDs vs VHS, and then about our troubles sleeping. And he suddenly pulls a comment that if I was snoring he'd just "shove his c*** in my snore box". Then in quick succession added on that he loves waking his partner up as he's right about to *** in her.

I replied that it sounded really creepy and that I don't feel comfortable with those types of sexual comments.

"aah sorry, just feeling frisky right now. Sex isn't my only focus. "

And mmm in the past I would have given another chance and ignored the red flag with a self dialogue that I need to be a "cool girl"/pick me.

But I shut it down. Told him it's too creepy and if he can't see what's wrong with that I can't help him, marked his number spam, curious what gaslighting he'd throw at me.

And sure enough, he "wasn't even trying to make the conversation sexual he was just joking. And clearly I don't get his sense of humor, I shouldn't have dissected his joke, and he shouldn't have to walk on eggshells.. besides, we matched on Tinder and not OkCupid so I should expect that" etc.

Mhm. Deleted and blocked. Can't believe he's been single an entire year!! Lol

If a man doesn't know better than to not say pervvy shit from the beginning, he's beyond saving. He was clearly trying to test the waters and see what other degrading things he could say and get away with.

xiao_sabiha · 2021-02-09T13:42:23+00:00

This sounds really similar to Lundy Bancroft's book "Why Does He Do That?" Simply put, he does it because it benefits him. He wants to be in control, he wants to have things his way. He doesn't care that you don't. And no amount of explaining or finding the right words or thinking of the perfect analogy will make a difference. Because he sees himself as the protagonist, and you as the sidekick.

I know, because I was in a relationship with an abusive misogynist for 8 years. And NOTHING did more to keep me in that relationship than the toxic advice about coMmuNiCaTioN and coMmiTmEnT. Fuck that.

hdost34 · 2021-02-09T15:47:43+00:00

I know this sounds harsh but this is what I’ve learned through extensive relationship experience:There is only one way to get a man to listen to you and that is to leave him and never come back.

tonha_da_pamonha · 2021-02-09T15:07:08+00:00

Even now this completely resonates with me. I told my husband recently that I was afraid to cry in front of him because I didn't want to annoy him with being needy or being too sensitive. I felt like he would truly be angered that I had emotions of sadness attached to his behavior. He looked at me entirely confused and said, it makes me sad that you feel sad, why would that anger me? And I realize how completely fucked my mind has been from dating shitty LVM misogynists in the past that I have been conditioned to feel like my emotions are burdens.

sealcrab · 2021-02-09T11:53:42+00:00

Communication can only work in very limited circumstances. The thing he did wrong must not have been a violation of any sort of basic standard of decency or respect. If he has done this, he is a misogynist and an asshole. It must have been something which someone could legitimately have been mistaken about, and it must not be part of a pattern of wilful ignorance. Once his error has been communicated to him, he must actually demonstrate that he cares by changing his behaviour. If he does not, further communication is pointless because he doesn't value the relationship enough to change.

Eluniae · 2021-02-09T13:59:06+00:00

Oh god, this hits home. I had a LV ex who would NEVER listen (or change anything) to whatever I was trying to say when I was convinced that “communicating” is the only way to make things work. He didn’t listen because he didn’t want to, he didn’t want to because he didn’t care. It took me long to realize, but I’m glad to see this get validated.

charr28 · 2021-02-09T13:24:49+00:00

I never used to understand why certain governments refused to pay ransom when their citizens are kidnapped overseas or why they dont negotiate with certain groups or demands. This is because you cannot negotiate/communicate with someone who has bad faith. They do not want to meet you in the middle, they do not want a compromise, they want their way. In fact to people like that willingness to talk is actually viewed as a weakness. By willing to make it work it reinforces that you still care and want to maintain a relationship. It completely gives them the upper hand.

Saitschik · 2021-02-09T14:54:16+00:00

They hear it, they understand it and they actively choose to anyway do what suits them better and is in their benefit. Like people, especially men, always do.

It's pointless.

myeggsarebig · 2021-02-09T13:44:43+00:00

OMG!!!!! This sooooooo much. I’m a social worker of sorts. I’m literally trained in communication. Nothing, literally none of the skills I have is enough to get through to LVM. And sadly it’s most men, not some men.

zombiessalad · 2021-02-09T17:18:50+00:00

The reality it when ur in a relationship with a narcissist as long as you are not validating the image that person has of themselves you will always be in the wrong in their eyes. One of the reasons therapy doesn’t work for narcissistic people usually is because the therapist is also competing with the image the narcissist has of themselves.

Moral of the story: misogynistic individuals typically up hold narcissistic traits and u better stay the fuck away from them.

crapeescape · 2021-02-09T19:14:46+00:00

I didn’t realize there was so many men that hate women until I started working, and then they all came out of the woodwork. The employment setting really highlights resentful, discriminatory and domineering behavior like I’ve never seen before Now I can spot them a mile away.

FabledAngryVillager · 2021-02-09T18:05:35+00:00

My last ex would say, "why didn't you tell me" when I would finally blow up. Dude was a covert narc. "My exes were all crazy" "My exes always tried to make me feel stupid." I only put up with him because my bff vouched for him.

I'm very communicative. They just don't care.

They can suddenly hear you tho when it's about sex 🤔

HaveNoIdeaWhatToPick · 2021-02-09T13:51:54+00:00

My father's example taught me that If someone doesn't want to change, then you will never manage to change them. It's sad, because those who are totally hopeless will never see that they need to change, they refuse to look at themselves from other people's point of view. It feels almost as If they were afraid of any self-reflection.

monnaamis · 2021-02-09T15:08:03+00:00

I know this is dating but that is literally my dad. Applies to all male relationships.

kaitybubbly · 2021-02-09T16:35:51+00:00

My ex in a nutshell. You can try to communicate until the cows come home but if they refuse to comprehend, its like talking to a wall- you're just wasting your energy. I wish I had known about that book sooner, I'll have to read it!

Cat_With_The_Fur · 2021-02-09T17:57:56+00:00

I can 100% witness to the accuracy of this. My marriage therapy was a huge waste of money for this exact reason. Luckily my therapist was ethical enough to stop it after a few sessions but I wish I could get that money and time back.

candyfox84 · 2021-02-09T21:26:30+00:00

Until recently, communication in relationships was a novel idea, born out of the pop psychology of the 70s and 80s. At that point, divorce rates had skyrocketed and people were seeking healthier lasting relationships. Women were asserting their power for the first time.

At that time, it seems communication referenced a check-in on very serious/rare issues vs. today's daily digest, where communication is a band-aid for everything. Let's be real, men back then worked, provided, and fixed things. They asked your parents for permission to date you and commitment was a baseline expectation. Women were expected to keep house and child rear. Men were fit because they had to be, especially in rural areas. Most men served in the military. They were harsh, tough, and quite frankly, way more masculine.

I'm not waving some MAGA flag - there were huge issues of domestic violence and other problems hidden behind closed doors. But this still exists today. Obviously there was no reddit where people could share and exchange ideas.

Yet so many of the issues I see women complaining about today are really specific to lazy, selfish, depressed, angry BOYS who don't work and don't provide, have no real life skills to speak of, cheat, and can't even invite a woman on a proper date. You're not going to fix that with communication.

oceanstains · 2021-02-09T16:33:27+00:00

Side note if y’all ever have in-law or parent issues, Dr. Susan Forward’s book “Toxic in laws” is SO GOOD. She’s so smart and helpful with setting boundaries and keeping drama low.

ponchoacademy · 2021-02-09T20:45:58+00:00

TLDR; thanks for posting this, cause now I dont feel like Im completely losing my mind and being unreasonable.

This is something Ive been struggling with, and really grateful to read this and the comments, cause everyone from friends to my therapist are telling me one thing and Im like..but I dont get it. and was feeling like I was just having a shit time wrapping this around my brain.

Thing is, I know my issues, Im not at all emotional, abusive childhood blah blah, but basically I protect myself by not showing my cards, and after all these years, I just dont know how. So I could be completely pissed off or incredibly sad, but no one will know it by looking at me. Which leads to issues where I'll say, hey this bothers me, but Im not taken seriously cause Im so calm when I say it, and people think its not that big a deal.

What makes sense in my head is...if I say something bothers me, that should be enough. I shouldnt have to scream or cry to get my point across. And I offer that same respect to others, the mere act of bringing something up says to me it was important enough for them to mention, and I'll be mindful about it.

So Im here between annoyed, pissed off, disappointed and confused cause I keep trying to ComMuniCatE with my bf, and he keeps blowing me off. I finally had enough and was like, we need to talk about this, cause this is getting to deal breaking / relationship ending levels, and he bursts into tears! All he doesnt know what I want from him or what to do, and Im like...maybe try listening to me, respecting when I say something, take me seriously. Like I repeatedly told him something he did really bothered me, and when I was like, Ive really had enough of that, he acted all shocked and said he thought it was just a cute quirk of mine and wasnt really a big deal.

If he was like, hey Poncho, Id really appreciate if you use the coaster instead of putting your glass on my table, I woudlnt keep putting my glass on the table and blow it off as a cute quirk that he mentions it every single time I have a drink. Or double down and get defensive that I dont think its necessary to use a coaster on that kind of table. And besides, he wouldnt even have to mention it to me cause I would give a shit and have respect for his home to notice hes using a coaster and Id use one too without him having to specifically ask me to. And its literally stupid minor things like that...overall he does put in a huge amount of effort and is incredibly sweet and kind, but the stupid minor things he just decides arent important enough to take seriously and acts oblivious about even though I bring it up all the time are getting to me.

Okay, Im going off lol cause I am pretty annoyed cause yeah, its like, its on me to communicate every single thing, repeatedly. And I cant wrap my brain around why its always my responsibility. Its not just this guy, just...in general in all my relationships, its like its on me to communicate, yet curiously, I dont need it explained to me how to be an attentive partner. And the fact that friends and my therapist are all telling me its my issue I need to work on just had me feeling like Im more effed in the head than I already know I am, cause Im here like, but arent there two people in a relationship? That doesnt make any sense?!

ferociouslycurious · 2021-02-09T22:30:14+00:00

I’m not sure I’ve ever met a man who’s not this way, TBH, and I’m 46. At least amongst those I have a personal relationship with. I do know some men who behave perfectly decently and respectfully towards me and other women, who are also happily married older men fwiw. They might be different.

sunnytimes4 · 2021-02-09T18:42:30+00:00

Oh, wow. I went through something similar to that.

Me and my ex had come home from dinner at another couples house, and he was shit-talking their relationship, and he asked if I had some complaint like the woman in question had... And I guess he thought I would say he was perfect or something like that, but I took it as an opportunity to mention..."sometimes I won't tell you things because you yell and blow it out of proportion" Man, did he yell and blow that out of proportion... Thankfully, it led to our breakup.

They do wanna talk, you see, they just don't want to talk about their faults that is!

ima35yearoldwhiteman · 2021-02-09T11:53:36+00:00

love this

KateJ1982 · 2021-02-10T00:40:33+00:00

I feel like the demands for communication with uncaring men is much more harmful than "irritating" the bull. At best, it puts the responsibility on the woman to teach basic relationship/life skills to a grown man who should know better. But even more concerning, it puts the woman in a vulnerable place because she's dealing fairly and expecting the same honesty back. She's thinking if she just worded things better, said it nicely or respectfully or a few more times, he would understand and change. It gives the man yet another opportunity to manipulate the woman.

Ladies, don't fall for it. If he wanted to, he would.

the-worst- · 2021-02-09T16:00:43+00:00

I can vouge for this. I'm currently in a relationship where he mansplains my health issues to me, refuses to give me any sort of words of affermation despite me insisting that is one of my love languages, and won't take any criticism. If I disagree with him, he shuts down the conversation altogether.

God, I wish I found this sub before I got married to this guy and had kids with him.

catandalady9 · 2021-02-10T00:28:08+00:00

Yep 🙌🏻 I must have communicated until I was blue in the face about his lack of effort (should have just blocked but was in a toxic cycle) .. and he had the nerve to say on our last day you didn’t CoMmUnIcATe clearly what you needed 🤥 men.

Engineer_Queen_Au · 2021-02-09T18:19:23+00:00

Hi. New here. This rang true for me with my ex husband. I would tell him what I needed from him (do x or be back at x time for y reasons). He would then proceed to not do what I asked. When I confronted him he would tell me that he misunderstood because I didn’t communicate clearly enough or he didn’t hear me because I didn’t make sure I had his full attention when I told him. It became painfully obvious that there was no “right” way to tell him what I needed. He wouldn’t do it because he didn’t want to and he didn’t care. Lesson learned.

allesweiser · 2021-02-09T12:38:57+00:00

I really needed to see this today. I can always count on FDS to come thru ✨🖤

teaed_up · 2021-02-09T14:28:20+00:00

Very that. I've repeatedly asked a friend of mine to stop being sexual towards me. Be it comments or random touching. He has 'unresolved feelings' for me and I don't have that for him. We used to be in a relationship too but that was 5/6yrs ago plus he's a 27yr old man so I figured hey we're adults here. - caught an attitude with me when I called him out for doing the same thing I said I didn't want after he said he valued me as a person and wanted to be friends and he will keep things normal - actually told me that he's attracted to me therefore I shouldn't/can't make him feel bad about that and he's not going to hide it - messaged me asking for sex I've stopped talking to him last week when he made a gross comment about my butt cheeks and then he proceeded to pretend he was concerned about what I was doing 'are you busy these days' followed with a lovely 12:01am 'omg I can't stop thinking about your 😸 can we have sex'. Then deleted his messages and proceeded to act like this is normal. Told him he doesn't respect me nor does he value my friendship or just me as a human being and he's like no I like our friendship. There was also a weak attempt to gaslight me and make himself the victim in all this. He actually reads FDS and told me about it.

Correct_Leek_1875 · 2021-02-09T18:47:51+00:00

That’s why you leave them. Don’t stay with these boys !!!

iamenoughsoareyou · 2021-02-09T19:49:13+00:00

Just yesterday I had this happen with my PA partner.

No matter how many times I try to explain my POVs or how certain things make me feel, communicating etc, he just doesn't understand.

He doesn't want to understand. I hang up on him while on call and just didn't write him since, I'll see if this was the last straw. Trying to get better for myself.

Honestly_th0 · 2021-02-10T03:20:35+00:00

The saying actually goes “Don’t try to teach a PIG to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the PIG.” PIG is more apt here anyway.

Affectionate-Cut-460 · 2021-02-09T22:29:46+00:00

The fact that this is loterally the life i love today and have full recordings of these conversations (fights)

breadandbunny · 2021-02-10T06:45:28+00:00

The title of that book reminds me of who I once was. Never going back!

smaller_ang · 2021-02-11T01:40:53+00:00

If the motivation to do something isn't coming from their OWN values and ideas of how to treat people, they're either 1) gonna do it for a little while resenting you, until they realize they aren't getting a prize, then call you a nag, 2) or not at all. In theory they could say "oh thank you I didn't realize how my actions affected you!" but it is a rare, rare case when I've seen that. Never with anyone I've dated.

MissGalaxy1986 · 2021-06-06T22:02:57+00:00

This is just painful, this guy reminds me of my greatest pickmesha moment ever and how it let to being borderline sexually assaulted and taken advantage of and being told that basically I have a great personality but it’s under the surface... I was going g through a massive depression at the timer tying get my spark back and this guy made me feel like utter toilet....

Title	Why cOmMuNiCaTe simply doesn't work. Extras is from "Men who hate women and the women who love them" by Susan Forward and Joan Torres
Author	nenindis
Upvotes	2101
Comments	111
Date	February 9, 2021 10:50 AM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/FemaleDatingStrategy
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/FemaleDatingStrategy/comments/lg0cqr/why_communicate_simply_doesnt_work_extras_is_from/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/FemaleDatingStrategy/why-communicate-simply-doesnt-work-extras-is-from.738320 https://theredarchive.com/post/738320

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