"Men should be offended" (x-post from r/feminisms) I whole-heartedly agree.

NemosHero · 2012-09-04T07:21:12+00:00

This is a fallacy, one I don't appreciate. It does not assume men are baseless animals who's natural state is rape, it assumes RAPISTS natural state is baseless animals who's natural state is rape. Unless you assume all men are potential rapists, it don't float.

bucketh3ad · 2012-09-04T06:09:50+00:00

You know, I'm not really offended when anybody suggests that reasonable precautions and awareness can help deter violent crime.

Counterpoint:

Poor people should be offended when someone claims that rich people should prevent muggings by not wearing certain things or not going certain places or acting a certain way. That line of thinking presumes that you are incapable of control. That you are so base and uncivilized that it takes extraordinary effort for you to walk down the street without robbing someone. That you require certain dress code be maintained, that certain behaviors be employed so that maybe today, just maybe, you won't steal from someone. It presumes that your natural state is thief.

Guess what? If you walk through the ghetto with a Rolex and a fur coat, pretty much everybody is going to leave you alone same as if you had on a plain white T-shirt and some threadbare jeans. However, that one mugger who is looking to rob a rich person is gonna see a big fat target.

Same as a would be rapist is going to see the flirtatious drunk girl in club attire walking alone as a potential target while the rest of us decent human beings do not.

What really offends me is people who assume a woman's natural state is victim and they are incapable of understanding danger or managing risk.

memymineown · 2012-09-04T05:42:16+00:00

No, no, no.

You can't combine all men and criminals. Rapists' natural state is a rapist, NOT Men's.

Curebores · 2012-09-04T06:00:01+00:00

This kind of thinking stems from a larger problem, which is that it is completely unacceptable to counsel women on ways to protect themselves from rape. Claims such as "women have a right not to be raped" or "a right to feel safe walking down the street" have shifted the onus of rape entirely to the entire male gender (the supposed perpetrators), most aptly illustrated in the "teach men not to rape" posters and a plethora of other campaigns all aimed to teach men that rape is bad.

The truth is that safety comes largely from personal vigilance and responsibility, and even then, sometimes all the precautions in the world won't prevent disaster. If you forgo caution and expect the world to accommodate, you will be in for a very rude awakening. It is naive to expect criminals of any variety to respect your "right to safety," and spending millions of dollars trying to teach men that they shouldn't rape women (which by the way, any sane man realizes by the time he hits puberty) while at the same time decrying cautionary advice bestowed upon women is not only doing nothing to help, but making things worse instead.

rabblerabble1 · 2012-09-04T11:45:29+00:00

I disagree entirely. You can educate people as much as you want about the moral implications of murdering people and stealing from them, but these crimes persist. The majority of the population would never involve themselves in such an act, but the fringe of society will always exist and thus the crimes are everpresent within our society.

I know that if I walk through certain areas of my town, alone, flashing my money around that there is a much higher chance that I will be attacked and have my money taken from me. Is this my fault? No. Could I have acted differently in order to protect myself? Yes. It's not my fault that there are people who will happily commit crimes in order to benefit themselves for whatever means, but they exist, and to ignore that fact is highly dangerous and will put me in danger.

If I told somebody that I was going to dress in a $10,000 suit with a $4,000 watch hanging off me, and a clip of $1,000 pouring out of my pocket whilst walking through an area notorious for crime, I would be mocked and asked to have my sanity evaluated. The risk of being attacked would be significantly increased.

For the life of me I will never be able to understand why advice which is intended to help is taken so offensively, and met with such resounding opposition.

OuiCrudites · 2012-09-04T13:16:46+00:00

So does "men can stop rape" yet Feminists have no problem beating that down the throats of the cultural zeitgeist.

Froztwolf · 2012-09-04T12:07:06+00:00

Me and whoever created this sign have completely different ways of thinking about this.

When women take precautions to ensure their safety, it is so that a rapist doesn't choose them as their victim when they are about to rape someone. Much like not going into dark alleys prevents you from getting mugged, but the mugger hiding there will still mug someone.

The creator of the image seems to think that it triggers rapes by guys that otherwise would not have raped anyone if women dress a certain way or behave a certain way.

I really don't think that's the way these things work. Women dressing or behaving a certain way doesn't create rapists, but it may influence their choice of victim.

SpanishGuy · 2012-09-04T11:23:22+00:00

That line of thinking presumes that you are incapable of control.

Bolds indicate where is the false conclusion. It requires a HUGE amount of stupidity to write that statement.

So if I warn you about a potential danger, does it mean that I am the one who's going to do the harm?... Of course not.

Or: If mom told you "don't talk with strangers", did she mean that she's a sexual predator who goes to the other side of the city to pick a child in her free time?... Of course not.

But then again there is the "I want to believe". Unfortunately, those people are a lost cause.

Amunium · 2012-09-04T12:28:58+00:00

How on earth could anyone agree with this?

It's a complete non-sequitur, as there is no connection drawn between men advising women to do something that will prevent a crime being committed to them, and these same men wanting to commit the crime.

It's like saying men should be offended if someone suggests people wear clothes when they go outside in cold weather. It's just a sensible suggestion - it doesn't mean men are creating the cold.

Funcuz · 2012-09-04T14:23:03+00:00

Sure it's offensive . Then again , who's been pushing that line for the past thirty or forty years now ?
Statistically , the odds of a woman being raped by some stranger jumping out of the bushes are slightly better than being struck by lighting during an alien abduction . Yeah , it happens but until feminists came along , most people didn't think of all men as rapists or pedophiles . It took years of PSAs , awareness-raising , and endless propaganda from the offices of NOW to convince all of the developed world that men simply are rapists waiting for a victim .

What's offensive is the notion that men can't be bothered to control themselves . What's even more offensive is that the same people who have been drilling this message into the public consciousness have now decided to change tactics and pretend that this societal view of men came along by accident .

Screw them and their phoney empathy . If it wasn't for them in the first place , we wouldn't have this assumption to deal with .

2012-09-04T08:59:29+00:00

Personal responsibility. Soon as people accept it the safer and happier everyone will be.

bigbadgreg · 2012-09-04T14:57:30+00:00

If I had a daughter, I would never in a million years allow her to walk through a bad neighbourhood alone at 3AM, drunk and dressed to the nines after a good night of clubbing. I wouldn't do it. I don't care if anyone thinks that I'm an enabler of rape. I wouldn't do it.

Smallpaul · 2012-09-04T15:16:14+00:00

The thing I find offensive is the idea that a rapists behavior reflects on me, because we share a gender.

toastydoc · 2012-09-04T21:33:51+00:00

The term "Men" and the term "Rapist" are not synonyms. You don't need to be male to rape, and to rape you don't need to be a male . Here is my problem with this r/feminisms post. :
It assumes that Men and Rapists are synonyms.

"It presumes your natural state is rapist".

No, it presumes a RAPISTS natural state is rapist. The creator of this word image is the one that put the term "Men" in there.
You know what? All people SHOULD be careful what they wear because there are male and female rapists out there who are looking to rape someone, and a visual stimulator can be the trigger that puts a person into the spotlight of a rapist.

curiouslystrongmints · 2012-09-05T04:10:30+00:00

[permanently deleted]

looolllzua · 2012-09-04T12:15:54+00:00

I disagree. Disliking something and trying to change it should not lead to ignoring realities. And this realities are that some places are dangerous, especially for women.

2012-09-04T12:34:26+00:00

I disagree. Why? its a lot like locking your house at night. You are not assuming everyone is a thief, but in case one comes along your way, you want to be safe.

otakuman · 2012-09-04T13:33:33+00:00

This reasoning is flawed. It's not that men are potential rapists, it's that rapists ALREADY EXIST and that they're ACTIVELY looking for targets.

Let's rephrase:

"People should be offended when someone claims that drivers should install alarms and security devices on their cars. This line of thinking presumes you are incapable of control. That you are so base and uncivilized that it takes extraordinary effort for you to walk down the street without stealing someone's car. That you require visible locks and GPS-surveillance labels so that maybe today, just maybe, you won't steal someone's car".

Do you see how ridiculous it sounds?

2012-09-04T14:54:37+00:00

Their logic is so bad.

Aavagadrro · 2012-09-04T17:34:14+00:00

To me it falls under the "No shit" category. Most males are not rapists, pedophiles or murderers, just like most women arent. The only people I have heard making the argument that men cant control themselves and women must wear modest clothing that covers them are religious types.

The idea that we are incapable of doing the right thing unless an invisible sky wizard threatens to punish us is ludicrous. Like someone else stated, people are not born rapists, they learn that sort of thing from the nurturing, or lack of it, they receive growing up.

The highly vocal religious right doesnt do us any favors, because they see women as property or at best second class citizens. They also see them as helpless and incapable, so we have to support them once we have defiled them by fucking them, since now they are damaged property and no pious man would want them after another man has been in there.

Its rather fucked up that quite a few of the problems we have as males today is a result of religion relegating women to being ten steps behind a man and other bullshit like that. You cant oppress someone and not have them want to end it, and usually they will want some sort of compensation. When your laws are based on someone being less than valuable, incapable, and useless for anything outside of making sandwiches and popping out kids, you are going to get fucked over by it just like they do.

2012-09-05T09:16:13+00:00

...as if the primary category of the rapist was their gender rather than their mental state

rottingchrist · 2012-09-04T05:48:48+00:00

Just the same way all strangers must think of themselves as kidnappers because parents tell their children not to talk to them, and all the people of a bad neighbourhood must think of themselves as criminals when people advise others to not venture there without good reason.

2012-09-04T10:07:12+00:00

That type of advice is retarded for other reasons too.

The clothes advice for example, no rapists interviewed in prison could remember that their victim was wearing.

People are raped wearing all sorts of styles.

The types of clothes that are alleged to trigger or increase the chances of rape are worn in millions and likely billions of incidents without a rape happening.

And putting this sort of useless advice out there leads to dumb asses telling people with PTSD, that they shouldn't have X or Y and in doing so - "blaming the victim", causing them extreme mental discomfort - and giving feminists a platform.

VerySpecialSnowflake · 2012-09-04T06:23:31+00:00

I have very rarely heard this argument seriously given. Sometimes people make an argument that a woman should make some effort to protect herself (I am not really a fan of these arguments in many cases). No one ever says that dressing slutty excuses rape.

2012-09-04T11:06:45+00:00

I am not offended as a man because I do not think that rape can be committed by men against women only.

Cybercommie · 2012-09-04T11:22:20+00:00

Feminists do like to tell us how to think and feel don't they?

ManAid · 2012-09-04T13:34:10+00:00

when someone claims that women should prevent rape by not wearing certain things or not going certain places or not acting a certain way

The use of word 'should' is wrong on so many levels and it means either the person who made the graphic poorly articulated it or is deliberately misrepresenting the people he/she is critiquing, The word 'should' implies that the women's actions is the decisive factor whether the rape happens or not and putting all the responsibilities on the woman, which is not true of course, and also not a position i have seen anyone here adopt,

The position i see most of the time is that of "take the necessary precautions (whatever they are) to decrease the chance of you getting raped"

That line of thinking presumes that you are incapable of self control

Yes, by following your flawed premise we can only conclude that that men are hypoagents that only react to the women's actions, and that women are entirely reasonable for their rape.

I can understand that maybe there would be an argument about what kind of percussions would a women take to reduce her chance of getting raped, but rejecting the notion of self preservation entirely ?

On potentiality: Precautions are most of the time situational rather than demographic (assuming that every man you meet is a potential rapist is the same as assuming every woman you meet is a potential false accuser) and even then demographic precautions is rarely attributed on the basis of race, sex or even religion, demographic precautions are 99% of time taken on the basis of repeated offence of a small demographic like the ghetto

examples: A woman that wears her coat or arms her pepper spray when she sees a couple of drunks in the middle of the night is enacting situational precautions

A man who records all his interactions with a woman who is known for falsely accusing people of rape is enacting situational precautions

A man who who carries a gun when he walks through the ghetto is enacting demographic percussions to reduce his chance of being mugged, even if the ghetto is composed entirely of one demographic and that is black people, it doesn't mean that all black or poor people are muggers.

SaucyWiggles · 2012-09-04T15:43:25+00:00

Personally when I'm talking to a woman about risk-management, I doubt that I'm the rapist in question stalking her in the night.

I say, "A potential rapist might trigger and attempt to assault you", etc. etc.

I'm not that offended.

tomrees · 2012-09-04T16:04:22+00:00

The link between revealing clothing (or even nudity) and sexual assault (meaning groping and abuse) is culture-dependent. It doesn't happen in Scandinavia (at least, to a much lesser extent).

I don't think rape has anything to do with revealing clothing, except insofar as such clothing signals vulnerability (a prostitute, for instance).

DavidByron · 2012-09-04T18:08:05+00:00

Men should feel offended by the people who say that stuff - who are always feminists.

jimjoebob · 2012-09-04T18:14:14+00:00

sorry, but this is the logic behind Islamic sensibilities regarding how women should dress. i.e., Muslim women are required to cover themselves because according to Sharia law, if a man looks at a woman's body and is sexually aroused, it's the woman's fault for being sexy to him. If she gets raped by said guy, it's the woman's fault cause "she tempted him."

backside_attack · 2012-09-04T19:10:14+00:00

This is a complete logical jump and completely ridiculous. It's this kind of unwarranted hate that makes our cause less legitimate.

2012-09-04T19:22:52+00:00

While I agree with OP's point, I think it's also important to consider that perhaps the implication is that scanty clothing is far easier to forcibly remove than, say, skinny jeans. It's not to say that men can't control themselves, but that a rapist set on rape will probably choose a target who is easier to undress than other candidates.

But then again, I'm more or less playing devil's advocate here.

2012-09-04T19:36:56+00:00

I agree a little with the sentiment. There are people who actually think that bullcrap in our society, mainly the religious right. But this picture automatically makes the assumption that men make up the absolute vast majority of rapists, something I disagree with.

I'm against the whole victim-blaming thing, not because of the consideration over how the victim feels, but if you get potential female victims to do that, it won't stop the hypothetical male rapist in this situation. He'll look for the easiest victim in relative terms. The only way women could really feasibly prevent rape through these methods is by wearing chastity belts and chastity masks. Even then, the rapist can threaten your life with a gun or a knife if you don't unlock them.

Women wearing certain clothes might be able to prevent themselves from individually getting raped, but it won't stop rape as a problem. My proposed solution to stopping rape against women is to have the justice system crack down on female rapists, since I think people who get raped are more likely to rape. And male rapists are more likely passing down their pain to their victim and vice versa.

2012-09-04T19:47:27+00:00

People should be offended at the notion that you should lock your doors and windows because doing such presumes that our natural state as humans is to be criminal.

It's the same logic as this PSA.

Molsenator · 2012-09-04T20:08:09+00:00

"I'd hit that," is not the same thought process as , "I'd rape the shit out of that.

mayonesa · 2012-09-04T20:24:36+00:00

Typical hivemind assbabble.

It presumes that the type of person who would commit rape is looking for an easy victim, so a girl dressed like a slut, stumbling drunk down some alley, is the perfect victim.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=--X12_2T3Hw

stemgang · 2012-09-04T21:29:30+00:00

But men are not allowed to be offended, ever.

Men's anger is scary to women, and they feel threatened.

Men will not have the same success that other groups have had in translating their "offendedness" into a politically-protected victim-group status.

We will have to try another route.

mayonesa · 2012-09-04T22:44:12+00:00

Many armed robbers have a chip on their shoulders and view life as inherently unfair, says criminologist Richard Wright, a professor at the University of Missouri at St. Louis and co-author of Armed Robbers in Action: Stickups and Street Culture. As a result, they often see someone else's success as a reminder of their own failure and inferiority. Worse still, they interpret outward signs of another's prosperity as a personal affront. "When they see people flaunting their wealth or driving fancy cars, they see that as an attempt to put them down," Wright says.

For this reason, robbers are especially apt to target people who are flaunting material possessions or even just displaying a cocky, superior attitude. Street predators have their own word for such behavior—"flossing"—and it infuriates them. "It's a very visible reminder of their situation," Wright adds, "of being poor, that they've got nothing in their pockets."

http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200812/marked-mayhem?page=2

warrior_king · 2012-09-04T23:18:41+00:00

http://www.reddit.com/r/feminisms/comments/zbay6/men_should_be_offended/ - In case anyone's interested in precisely where this is being x-posted from, as the OP rehosted at imgur.

AnonTheAnonymous · 2012-09-05T00:55:02+00:00

Feminists are the ones assuming mens natural instinct is rape when they post "men can stop rape" and "rape culture" and "pedo-hysteria".

Also, nobody blames a woman for getting raped for dressing a certain way. Well, at least not men. Women will do that just because they don't like other women dressing for more attention than they themselves are comfortable with dressing. Thus they say things like you will get raped for dressing like that to scare them into conformity. But the fact is nobody blames rape victims for getting raped. Feminists just use absurdly broad definitions of rape, and when everyone else says that no rape occurred because the woman chose to have sex, (e.g. drunk one night stands) the feminists will spin it and say everyone else is justifying rape.

AloysiusC · 2012-09-05T04:37:50+00:00

This victim blaming hysteria is blown totally out of proportion. No, people are not blaming the victim. They might be giving bad and unsympathetic advice but actually saying it's the victims own fault, no. So lets come to our senses and grow up.

AloysiusC · 2012-09-05T04:40:12+00:00

Funny how men are supposed to feel offended in statements like this, but when it comes to things like "men can stop rape", they're supposed to stand there hanging their heads in shame and nod.

rbcrusaders · 2012-11-28T07:02:35+00:00

I whole-heartedly DISAGREE. Claiming a woman should watch what she wears/acts isn't claiming that ALL men can't control themselves. It is claiming that sure, SOME men are just crazy people who can't control themselves. And that no amount of posters telling men not to rape is going to convince a sick person not to do the thing that makes them sick.

psparks900 · 2012-09-04T05:01:08+00:00

yup. pretty much sums it up.

2012-09-04T13:17:00+00:00

Why isn't this just a selfpost? picture of text doesn't exactly add anything to the quality of the submission.

Faryshta · 2012-09-04T16:20:14+00:00

So when someone suggest that everyone should lock their door at night. Are they considering me a default murderer?

AloysiusC · 2012-09-04T14:55:01+00:00

[permanently deleted]

xarlev · 2012-09-05T00:27:14+00:00

If you dress like a slut, people will think you're a slut.

Title	"Men should be offended" (x-post from r/feminisms) I whole-heartedly agree.
Author	JohnAdamZiolkowski
Upvotes	1061
Comments	283
Date	September 4, 2012 4:58 AM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/zbkrl/men_should_be_offended_xpost_from_rfeminisms_i/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/men-should-be-offended-x-post-from-rfeminisms-i.1014329 https://theredarchive.com/post/1014329

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