why aren't open relationships more popular?

Pizzashillsmom · 2022-10-22T21:16:00+00:00

Tons of people are open to open relationships until they realize their partner is gonna fuck other people too.

hungrychick404 · 2022-10-22T22:09:30+00:00

One great partner you’re super compatible with is so much better than many partners who are only ok. I have a hard enough time enjoying the dating scene, so why would I want to subject myself to any more of that?

I am also sadly a bit of a jealous person. Knowing my partner was spending the night with someone else when they could have been spending it with me would be pretty painful for me. I also personally like having a partner who would feel jealous if I were to sleep with someone else. My emotional composition is not cut out as well for open relationships personally

SmilesLikeMardiGras · 2022-10-22T21:20:53+00:00

there is no need for polyamory when you can just be single and have FWBs. polyamory is highly ideological and in no way reflects human nature

wtknight · 2022-10-22T21:25:27+00:00

With all this freedom and info why do we still organize society around monogamy when we know deep down most people want to explore others, esp when they are married.

Why do we supposedly know this? If seems to me that if people really wanted to explore non-monogamy it would be happening already. Most people instead seem to like the idea of feeling in love rather than sexual exploration.

I'm not sure what is so special about sex, anyway? It's basically the same thing no matter who one has it with. On the other hand, relationships feel much more special, and loyalty is usually an essential part of that special feeling.

januaryphilosopher · 2022-10-22T21:12:43+00:00

Most people are naturally monogamous. They don't see the point of being in relationships that aren't exclusive. They're just friends you occasionally sleep with at that point.

Oli_love90 · 2022-10-22T21:09:51+00:00

To be honest, I’ve mainly wanted just a good partner. I know I’m not in the minority when I say that I have almost no desire to explore with others. I just see little to no benefit and more headache (stds, pregnancy, terrible sex, overall emotional messiness)

In my opinion, I don’t think society is stifling the urges to be with multiple people I think not many are interested.

liefelijk · 2022-10-22T21:22:07+00:00

That’s not something most people want. Part of the wonderful thing about having a partner is that they’re there for you, not there for everyone.

They also seem to get messy rather quickly. People say even one threesome can ruin a relationship.

anon018274031 · 2022-10-22T21:47:47+00:00

Can’t speak for others but I am monogamous. When I love someone I only have eyes for them, I don’t feel attracted to other people. I’d also find it incredibly upsetting if I had to then share that person who is my world, when I’m clearly not there’s 🤷‍♀️

toasterchild · 2022-10-22T22:10:50+00:00

Its no like some new idea nobody has ever tried before. We all know people who have tried it and it always ends up with lots of hurt feelings and drama. If it worked super well more people would do it.

CimZim · 2022-10-22T21:24:03+00:00

This is a great development, but why then do most women insist on commitment?

Commitment is not inherently the same as monogamy, unless you mean just sexual commitment.

You have the freedom to be with whoever, I have the freedom to be with whoever

Right. And I only want to be with one dude, not a bunch.

and we know now that a lot of this "love" stuff is just hormones and an invention of the jewelry marketing industry.

Neurochemicals control everything in our brain, this is a weird argument, like saying that estrogen is "just" a hormones and the specifically carved wood I'm sitting on is "just" a chair. Like...it's still real, my dude.

NJFlowerchild · 2022-10-22T21:28:02+00:00

Different people want different things. Those that don't want monogamy have poly relationships or no relationships at all and only have casual sex. People that want commitment seek commitment. No one is being forced to choose either of them.

Bikerbats · 2022-10-22T21:38:25+00:00

Because we (human beings) are of two minds. We are not naturally monogamous by nature, but ironically jealousy and wanting our mates to be monogamous is just as natural. The societal pact is to suppress the former in favor of the latter because it's more stable.

Open relationships aren't popular because human nature isn't changing and we're a jealous covetous lot that doesn't like to share.

2022-10-22T22:18:03+00:00

Women in love are incredibly monogamous.

chingness · 2022-10-22T22:26:19+00:00

I’m not sharing 😁

WilliamWyattD · 2022-10-23T00:01:32+00:00

Women are generally into one man at a time when they can find the right man, or no men until they do. That is the natural state if there is no need to trade sex for protection, resources or paternal investment.

While some women are outliers, few women truly desire to fuck around with many men at the same time, especially if that means accepting that man fucking around with a lot of women. And in a catch 22 sort of thing, any man that let her fuck lots of guys while he stayed true to her would instantly lose value and dominance in her eyes.

Even when women are promiscuous, for most of them, whatever their front brain is thinking, their hind brain is secretly hoping they can land this guy if he is high value. Yeah, there are the times when most women will be into casual with a hot (good physical DNA) guy that they would not actually want to land because he is clearly not husband material. But most women would tire of too many of such men.

Women's inompatability with monogamy more has to do with longevity with one guy, not with being paired with one guy at a time.

NoTomboyGfWhyLivee · 2022-10-23T01:46:49+00:00

Because relationship is a dance of 2 and a open relationship is never in favor of the man, every open relationship you see is the livid version of AFBB.

You need a men with pretty low self steem and self value to accept it

ConcentrateOk1933 · 2022-10-23T01:56:16+00:00

Open relationship = Circus

TheCultOfGrogg · 2022-10-23T03:57:36+00:00

Because there’s no such thing as an open relationship. Relationships are inherently exclusive.

fakingandnotmakingit · 2022-10-23T05:50:14+00:00

I think relationships where you're a person's "special someone" and someone is your "special person" is just better for me personally.

It provides you an avenue to build a life together and grow older together. And that takes a lot of compromise and communication and compatibility. Finding that in one person is quite hard as it is. Negotiating that compromise and communication with more than one person can get a bit much. The only people I know who've managed to be in a healthy open relationship or poly are people who are super great at communication and are almost always on the same page.

Humans are complicated. Two humans are complicated and have to negotiate their complications. More than 2 is harder. The bigger the group, the more feelings can get entangled

AstronautLoveShack · 2022-10-22T21:43:05+00:00

I invest my time, money, and resources into one person. I expect the same out of the other person. Also I don’t want STDs.

teetootom · 2022-10-22T21:09:42+00:00

I believe poly is slightly more popular with women than men, and it’s growing in popularity across the board very fast

classicslayer · 2022-10-22T21:39:01+00:00

Open relationships don't tend to work due to people having pride and egos. Jealously and insecurity is a powerful thing.

KikiYuyu · 2022-10-22T21:58:15+00:00

Why deny the pleasure of being and expressing your passion for others?

Because many people are like me and find the concept of sleeping around to be the exact opposite of pleasurable. I'd rather never have sex at all if my only choice was polyamory.

Clearly you don't know human nature as much as you claim :)

literaryhogwartian · 2022-10-22T21:59:30+00:00

My husband is MY husband. He is mine and I am his, we're not sharing each other with anyone

Aromatic_Shop9033 · 2022-10-22T23:27:26+00:00

Most people aren't degenerates.

BigZaddyZ3 · 2022-10-22T21:10:29+00:00

I feel like they are already on the rise among younger generations. But you know, old habits die hard. Give it another 10 to 15 years tho OP…

DisasterPeace7 · 2022-10-22T21:31:34+00:00

Well monogamy is not natural and I think more and more people are being honest about it so I I would say in the next 20 or 30 years it might even be commonplace amongst people I'm not sure

As far as why, from the male side of things the open relationship is going to overwhelmingly benefit the woman more and most men are or even more so not super cool with their girl banging other dudes

From the female side of things the times that I've seen a woman suggest an open relationship is with a man that she either doesn't respect or isn't that attracted to they don't normally want the same quantity like men do , they want the absolute best as opposed to Raw numbers, so if they have a guy who they really look up to in high esteem, they more than likely wouldn't even entertain the idea of asking him for an open relationship

Society as a whole also just has a negative view on open relationships, and to be honest if you found somebody that you feel is special, you're probably just not one for sharing, if I wasn't married to an amazing woman I probably wouldn't be opposed to the idea of an open relationship but never with a woman I planned on marrying or taking all that seriously

New-Context831 · 2022-10-22T21:41:54+00:00

Monogamy benefits woman, it's not going away

FarewellMyQueen · 2022-10-23T03:51:49+00:00

Coming from the open side, my partner and I are poly, and it works really well for us. We love each other deeply and we’re planning to marry.

That said, we are a childfree couple and both of us are somewhat unconventional. I’m also not naturally monogamous.

anonymous-platypus1 · 2022-10-22T21:08:15+00:00

They are extremely popular in certain communities and lifestyle. Most BDSM or kinky people you meet are probably poly. Personally, I’d be open to the idea, but I’d have to be the primary and only partner for a little bit. I also don’t ask for exclusivity at the beginning of a relationship because there are things I’m not doing: I’ve learned that not rushing into exclusivity has made the men I’m dating much more intentional with their actions toward me. I actually think it’s getting me into trouble (the good kind) because I’ve met and am talking to and spending time with a couple men that I like. And I find myself sad at the idea of having to cut one of them off if the other proves to be a better fit for me.

And I think they kinda feel the same way, because even though they have women that are having sex with them, they are still hanging out with and spending time with me. There is something to the open thing that allows there to just be less stress at first.

If people were more honest I think it could work. Also I think some just don’t know how to prioritize enough for it to work. And some just don’t want to share. (Which I get)

thedeadpill · 2022-10-22T22:30:50+00:00

Insisting on commitment gives them good odds that they can steal half your stuff later. If divorce laws/practice didn't overwhelmingly favour women, maybe they'd be less interested in forcing someone to commit.

Alternatively, it's possible that people really just want to bang one person only. That monogamy isn't some weird enforced-by-culture thing, and that it's what most people are actually comfortable with.

Speaking for myself, I'm a one-at-a-time kind of guy. I don't want to share, and if I'm interested in one person, I'm only interested in one person.

AshookaNaga · 2022-10-22T21:05:05+00:00

They are. Only trad cucks and gold diggers have a problem with them.

People that aren’t those don’t view sex as a negative thing.

Now before the trad cucks start whining or claiming they aren’t trad cucks, yes you are. Just sit in front of a mirror and look at your reflection. 100% trad cuck. Worried about “the sex” and that “the sex” is bad.

Gold diggers want exclusivity to maximize the gold being dug. Another woman might cause that gold to go to her.

Trad cucks fear the vagina going away, and gold diggers fear the gold going away.

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2022-10-22T21:21:41+00:00

Neat fact about sexual dimorphism (the ability to distinguish males and females from a distance).

Usually animals that are poly exhibit this, whereas animals that are mono the males and females can’t be distinguished unless you ‘check’

Valuable-Marzipan761 · 2022-10-22T21:39:12+00:00

must be deeply ingrained in humans to not want our partners sleeping with other people. Like you said, we're free to be non monogamous so the only rrason to still be is that it's a preferable system for most of us

blueberrypie02 · 2022-10-22T22:25:58+00:00

I think open relationships might be more popular in the future. Or it will be more socially acceptable to try one for a while to see if you’d like it better than monogamy.

Also don’t forget that open relationships can be just as hard as monogamy for different reasons. And there’s quite a lot of amount of c word going around the poly community. A lot of them say that ‘you don’t owe anyone’ while completely disregarding our natural predispotion to bond with others on a deeper level and not wanting to share. Then there’s the planing you have to put into it to get all those people on the same schedule.

And the last argument is that while I still find other people attractive, what my partner brings me is much more valuable than the possibility to bump genitals with other people without restrictions.

Hummingb1rb · 2022-10-22T22:29:47+00:00

If given the freedom to do so, and women still aren’t doing it, then they clearly don’t want to.

Sinkagu · 2022-10-22T22:36:41+00:00

I would say humans are selfish creature who would love to have sex with multiple people but humans are also jealous asf hence why some just stick to monogamous relationships. Most people ik don’t even like the idea of there bf or gf having opposite gender friends so having a whole other partner would def mess things up. But I’m friends with a couple of poly people. Mono, poly and open all seem to end just as quickly as each other. So ig humans just suck at relationships. Because I hate it when people tell me my long distance(3 years) won’t last when they have been through 10+ relationships in the same amount of time I’ve been in one.

ZealousidealAd7191 · 2022-10-22T22:40:05+00:00

Now we typically hear in these spaces that its women who tend towards monogamy where as the men tend to be be more polygamous. I’ve come to believe that men have phases. Yes undoubtedly men have a polygamous phase is their youth. But i also believe men have a pair bonding phase where they become hyper focused on family and children.

Humans have both polygamous and monogamous instincts as human children have one of the longest (cant remember the word but) period of needing their parents to survive.

I say this as a nearly 40 year old man and going through my own phases and now being married and listening to many men in this space who have had far more success with women in their younger phases and are now in their “cooldown” male-nesting phase.

SmarmyPapsmears · 2022-10-22T22:40:47+00:00

Men naturally want polygamy (assuming they can get it from women) and women want monogamy.

I mean that's why we have a "hookup culture" right now right? The top men are not committing and have tons of access to women. Women had it better off when they could lock men down.

Aiizimor · 2022-10-22T22:49:15+00:00

I have yet to see an open relationship that isnt awkward or falling apart. But thats just my personal experience

Menaku · 2022-10-22T22:55:09+00:00

Is that a reference to the opening from the first fullmetal alchemist at the end?

InfamousBake1859 · 2022-10-22T23:02:41+00:00

Why do you need a open relationshio? Just call it friends with benefit

Bad_texter · 2022-10-22T23:04:24+00:00

Not sure why you call out women. Plenty of men are against this too.

Jealousy, complicated relationships, risks of diseases and pregnancy with multiple partners are all reasons to avoid such actions.

MC-Purp · 2022-10-22T23:07:16+00:00

Even though women have gained more independence than ever before, that doesn’t mean they are “ do what the fuck ever I want rich”. Marriage in the modern world is more about pooling resources than evenly distributing women themselves. Most people don’t make 6 figures plus, so marriage is actually a great strategy for those in the middle and lower socioeconomic classes. Especially if you want to have children. If I’m going to want a partner to face the world with, or to build a family with, i’m probably gonna want somebody that wants to stick with me for the adventure. In an open relationship, it’s a riskier investment, on an already risky investment.

womandatory · 2022-10-22T23:23:26+00:00

By your (very poor) logic, STDs shouldn’t exist because that would be an impediment to your bizarre world. Very young men might think non-monogamy is a fine prospect simply because they’re horny all the time and probably don’t have much going on in their lives. Most of us actual grown ups who are juggling careers, children and elderly parents don’t think it’s great because we don’t have the time or resources to even consider it.

Current theory is that monogamy emerged so that men could protect their babies from other men who might kill them to mate with their mother. So if you don’t like it, along with so many other social norms guys complain about on this sub, you only have yourselves to thank.

Most so-called ‘poly’ or open relationships that I’m aware of are full of immature drama and bullshit. They seem to be predominantly sought by irredeemably mentally unwell people who want to be cool and edgy and believe they need to throw off the shackles of jealousy and insecurity etc etc in order to emerge superior so they can scoff at ‘normies’. They seem to mostly be aged mid 20s to early 30s. Beyond that I’m only aware of one couple with a ‘successful’ open relationship in their 40s and the wife is the only one who gets any action. It’s put huge strain on their marriage. Presently they are ‘closed’ while they navigate the dramas of their kids finishing high school. The husband comes across as a lecherous creep and none of my female friends want to be anywhere near him.

The biological imperative actually supports women having sex with as many men as possible when she’s fertile in order for the genetically superior sperm to emerge a clear winner. Men fucking around just creates a bunch of genetically inferior offspring that they usually abandon to being raised by a single mom or another man. Strangely, men didn’t like this truth, and so they cultivated a new one - that men are somehow programmed to cheat or seek novelty. They’re not, but when you allow yourself to be groomed by porn and social narratives that say you are, this is where we end up.

Most people are naturally monogamous because we don’t have time for the drama and bullshit in one relationship, much less in multiples, and men aren’t capable of properly raising and providing for multiple children with different mothers. The whining that goes on about child support is enough to prove that.

Most people who want poly or non-monogamy are the ones least likely to be capable of managing it from a maturity and ethical perspective. They want to believe they are special and above normal human emotions, when they’re actually just fucked up. Sadly, many of them won’t realise this until they’ve spread a fair bit of venereal disease, exacerbated their untreated mental health issues and had a few random kids, who will also grow up irredeemably mentally ill or deeply antisocial because they’re being raised by idiots who try to reject and disprove theories of human attachment to maintain their specialness.

rosephase · 2022-10-22T23:26:05+00:00

There are more open relationships now then in the past. At least more people willing to say they are open.

I’m a woman and wanted polyamory. I think as it becomes more of a visible option more people will do it.

But TONS of people want monogamy. Non monogamy requires a bunch of emotional work for most people that folks aren’t up for. Monogamy will likely be the most popular relationship shape for the foreseeable future. But non monogamy is certainly on the rise.

alphasupremacy5555 · 2022-10-22T23:30:46+00:00

The truth is that a lot of women do not really want their boyfriends and husbands having sex with other women. Women want to be able to have sex emotional intimacy with other men especially the high value alpha Chads, Tyrones, Pookies and Ray-Rays they weren't able to lock down for long-term commitment and use the guise of polyamorous open relationships/marriage to enforce the fact that it isn't cheating. Really and truly society is actually moving toward more polyamorous open relationships, throuples and so on it just hasn't become the norm yet. In the coming decades you're going to see more women multiple women sharing that high value alpha that they truly desire and fantasize about. Women would much rather do that than have a man they view as a ugly beta loser to themselves.

Upstairs-Rip-604 · 2022-10-22T23:35:59+00:00

I don’t want an open relationship.

missionarymechanic · 2022-10-23T00:02:04+00:00

This stated worldview is so skewed and out-of-touch with reality that it's painful to read...

Overall, you bring up that women have never been more free to be with whomever, yet they don't want to be, and that this is confusing to you and somehow less honest with their nature... I'm going to make a bold claim here: Perhaps it is because they do not wish to be. And that is, in fact, more honest about their desires.
If it's "just hormones," why be with anyone? This is a contradiction, not support for your argument.
This "love stuff" existed long before the "jewelry marketing industry," and exists independent of it to this day.
"why do we still organize society around monogamy" Society, as you know it, exists because of monogamy. The technology and laws that make women independent of men? A product of monogamy. The cultures that practiced various forms of polygamy? Couldn't compete. From a societal standpoint, it is a far greater risk profile if many women put their "eggs" into a few "baskets," as it were.
"...we know deep down most people want to explore others, esp when they are married." Who is "we?" Is that you, Legion? Because if you're going to appeal to the masses, you're going to actually need "masses" that agree with you. And you've already established that you're not really in the majority here. What most people "want" in marriage is a good and fulfilling relationship. The problem is that many people don't realize is that that is what they were supposed to bring into it.
"Why deny the pleasure of being and expressing your passion for others?"
-Humans have finite mental and emotional capacity. Generally speaking, you can be an inch deep and a mile wide, or an inch wide and a mile deep, but most people find the greatest benefit from the latter. And before you go in on the, "But it's possible to have lots of people who are special." No, there are certain categories of relationships, but you really only have one special one for each. (Even parents have favorite children.) If several within a given category are "equally special," then none are.
-Fewer partners, less drama.
-It is not a "passion for others," it's called being horny. Don't dress it up.
-"Pleasure" is a bit more complex. Most of what people get out of cheating is the thrill of "doing something naughty." But life isn't Hollywood and one-star ratings. Married couples actually have the most sex and report the highest pleasure ratings on average. Women rarely have orgasms on one-night stands because intercourse ends up being extremely short. And affairs are highly unstable.
"I think polyamory is more honest and in line with human desires." This is in line with polyamorists think and desire.
"It doesn't make sense to me that women aren't embracing this with open arms..." This should be your first indication that what makes sense to you might not be normal or correct. That is the crux of my counter-claim. On a personal note, I find this weirdly cultish and manipulative instead of persuasive. Straight up, reading the original post made my skin crawl.

That's what I think... Ta Da!

urukshai3 · 2022-10-23T00:33:16+00:00

Polygamous "relationships" almost always fuel on power imbalance.

She does not want him to leave, so he let him fuck around even given all the risks and issues.

He wants to fuck other women but he get mad she wants to fuck other men and it is easy for women to get dick.

So yes, these poly "relationships" are abominations based on psychological abuse.

NthKnife · 2022-10-23T00:52:54+00:00

I honestly think because only having to trust one person is less risky than having to trusting more.

I do know men and women who have tried poly and honestly none of them seem to love it.

It honestly reads to me as people not wanting to be alone but not having found a single person who meets enough needs, so they divide it between people and try poly because it works for their current goals.

I'm sure some people could refute that, but that is what I've seen.

Elegant-Historian961 · 2022-10-23T01:26:12+00:00

STDs
Noone knows who the father of the child is assuming protection failed or was not used
Even if they knew due to DNA test which is quite expensive, if the child belonged to outside the primary spouse, the primary spouse may not be good to the child or the child would not be with the birthing father.... so kind of a broken family.
People prefer monogamy because they can't bear their partner having sex with other people and possibly giving them stds etc.
Sex is not just physical but also emotionally vulnerable duration. People might catch feelings for the other people which can cause a rift with the primary spouse or divorce with the primary spouse.
Tax benefits to be shared with whom? Health coverage etc? Primary spouse,, secondary spouse, etc

Holiday-Reach-8948 · 2022-10-23T01:32:52+00:00

Personally, I have no desire to be with any other man besides my husband. He’s an awesome human and interesting to talk with. I like how we’re able to comfortably communicate what we want and how we want it as well as what we need and how to get there.

Also, just about every other post in this sub is some guy saying they will not be with a woman who has a high n count (some take it step further and claim they only want a virgin). And that’s fine and all - that’s their preference, but it seems to be A LOT of guys so I’m not sure howI “freedom to be with whoever” would work out for them (assuming they would hold themselves to the same expectations as their partner).

I don’t believe love is “just hormones”. I believe love is made up of a lot of different things.

Solid-City-3798 · 2022-10-23T01:41:55+00:00

Because women instinctually want protection from a man in exchange for sex and if he splits his time resources across several women, she does not get it. She wants him to sleep in her bed and guard her. "Hormones" matter. Also, as a woman, speaking for myself, I dont at all want to sleep around. I want one partner for life.

EBZ1722 · 2022-10-23T02:26:27+00:00

Humans are largely pair bonding animals, redditors that like to screech about pre Christian societies being polygamous fail to understand those arrangements were largely violently patriarchal where women were slavelike concubines for the men able to conquer their tribe/village

AbsolutelyNobody0 · 2022-10-23T02:47:59+00:00

This is the goofy shit I like reading. The stuff that assumes humans exist outside of nature...

"Women have grown independent of men" Women aren't independent of men. Men are the backbone of society. If enough men check out, society collapses. If one Russian guy drops a nuke, society collapses. Then women will go right back to reliance on men. It's an ever looming threat.
"Just hormones" Imagine thinking this... We evolved to have those hormones because they were beneficial to survival. We are not outside of our biology.
"Still organize society around monogamy" As stated near the beginning of my comment, if enough men check out, then society collapses. The reality is that you would end up with harems where tons of women get with very few men. Huge populations of men would lose purpose and check out leading to societal collapse. By the way, it's known as 'enforced monogamy' and it exists for a reason.

Just to add on, people generally have no desire to raise children that aren't their own. In the 'free love' society you imagine, men wouldn't know if a child is theirs and would lose desire to parent them. Without enough proper male influence, children become bad adults. Continue this process for a long enough time and society collapses. For an example of this, see our society and the sexual revolution - it's all going great, isn't it?

Be honest with yourself. Are you really so arrogant to think you understand a better way to run all of society more than 10,000+ years of history across countless cultures? What you're advocating certainly couldn't create a great society and it's almost certainly a fast way to destroy one.

2022-10-23T03:12:21+00:00

I don’t even like dating 2 women at the same time.

gymbro718NYC · 2022-10-23T03:32:34+00:00

I don't know. I don't think monogamy is exactly natural.

GloryToChadlantis · 2022-10-23T05:52:51+00:00

Men will either not deal with it for long or not at all.

Females get jealous when the man starts bringing comparable or better looking women over.

The shelf life of an open relationship or poly one is limited.

Longest poly relationship I seen was 3 years and the guy from the beginning became just a wallet.

He left and for two weeks the ex didn't even notice until bro posted an eviction notice for them to get out. Dude sold the house.

She added a white sound clouded rapper to the relationship.

And bro paid the bills.

Dude felt as though he got replaced. This was a high school sweet heart. One year into college and she decided it was time to add someone else.

Title	why aren't open relationships more popular?
Author	MOProG2
Upvotes	0
Comments	210
Date	October 22, 2022 9:02 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/yayjw0/why_arent_open_relationships_more_popular/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/why-arent-open-relationships-more-popular.1136861 https://theredarchive.com/post/1136861

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