Men being the ones to initiate is not a failure of feminism

Sure-Vermicelli4369 · 2025-11-21T18:23:13+00:00

Every woman is a feminist until it comes to reciprocation

Sick-of-you-tbh · 2025-11-21T20:10:09+00:00

Feminists try to act like they’re against traditional gender roles when in reality they are the absolute biggest adherents to them, just for men specifically though. They just hate traditional feminine roles. That’s called hypocrisy, can’t be surprised when people start to call that out.

VersionEins · 2025-11-21T18:09:09+00:00

Men are complaining about approaching because they have been told to stop doing it unless they do it "the correct way," which is just someone's subjective opinion.

SpicyTigerPrawn · 2025-11-21T18:11:03+00:00

The hypocrisy is treating unwanted male approaches as creepy while still expecting men to do most of the approaching. This creates a scenario where women feel creeped out and men feel like creeps until they either luck out or lose their confidence and give up. I think what most women would say is that they're already approaching men they like and if you're not being approached it's because nobody wants you. But it's a relatively small subset of men who are actively approached by women. Which leads to the next problem which is that nobody is warning boys that many of them will never be truly wanted and they need to prepare for a life largely devoid of reciprocated interest.

ConstipatedAvocado · 2025-11-21T18:50:19+00:00

There is no injustice or unfairness here. Men are equally free to boycott approaching women, and either women will be forced to start initiating or go without dates.

The fallout has already happened. 45% of young men have no approached anyone in the past year.

Main-Tiger8537 · 2025-11-21T18:50:44+00:00

what has a free individual person to do with equality that got and still gets demanded? mainly by liberal/progressive women who want a 50/50 relationship... it is pointless to argue about conservative dating behavior aslong as they date eachother...

nope not letting you off the hook here as feminists put up standards they themselves are not living up to aka double standards AND criticise people, groups or movements for behaviors they carry out on a daily basis...

projecteddesperation · 2025-11-22T00:05:55+00:00

This is called choice feminism which is condemned by feminists but really the vast majority of modern feminism is now just choice feminism.

The reason this is a failure of feminism is because modern feminism often masquerades as a gender equality movement and alleges having benefits for men for men too, some of those being what you mention here. Many women only advance feminist ideals they like but when it comes time to topple their antiquated norms and valuations of men...

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Jetpine9 · 2025-11-21T18:34:23+00:00

The problem is the level and kind of critique men receive around this, like that men have less social skills, or can't read the room. Then it absolutely is hypocrisy because women aren't "choosing not to", they absolutely lack those same skills they criticize about in men. PS: it doesn't help women by preaching that women shouldn't develop social skills or assertiveness, but instead should be passive and accept whatever the tides bring them.

IgorXY · 2025-11-21T17:54:36+00:00

The problem is that women are free individuals

Then why is my employer not a free individual if he does not want to hire women? Why men in Ukraine are not free individuals when they don't want to die on frontlines? Why is it ok to force men to do something that violates their free will?

Mind you, I don't say that women should be forced to approach. But if women's equality movement avoids areas where they have an advantage, it is a failure of the equality movement. Technically.

RealityCold4693 · 2025-11-21T18:08:45+00:00

So women are the one who complain about men not approaching and give their reason whatever reason so did become a men issue

Cultural-Ad-8486 · 2025-11-21T18:59:55+00:00

>Lately I've noticed a lot of hot takes from men bemoaning the idea that they're expected to approach women while women have the privilege of remaining passive. They argue that real equality would mean women take the role of initiator in romantic relationships just as often, and the fact that they don't is tantamount to feminist hypocrisy.

So, men are right here and really expose the hypocrisy of these feminists in their unwillingness to adopt not only the "pleasant" male gender roles, but also the less pleasant ones.

Sorry, but if you try to have your cake and eat it too, you'll be called out for it.

>The problem is that women are free individuals, and we aren't constantly acting as agents of feminism when it comes to our personal lives. Feminists can promote the idea that women approaching men should be socially acceptable, but it won't change the fact that most women are more comfortable dating men who bother approaching them, just like it can't force women to defy gender roles in other ways, like wearing men's clothing or taking on traditionally male jobs.

So, once again, this is an attempt by some women to just get only rights without responsibilities, which is naturally perceived less positively by men.

No, dear ones, this is either a full-fledged adoption of gender roles and their blurring, or everything remains stable as before.

Or you'll simply be called out for hypocrisy because that's who you are.

>There is no injustice or unfairness here. Men are equally free to boycott approaching women, and either women will be forced to start initiating or go without dates.

Great, so this is also a suggestion to men to just shut up and not get outraged by blatant injustice.

Although I'll remind you that the concept of justice is perfectly understandable even to animals (like the experiment with monkeys, grapes, and cucumbers), so demanding that men turn a blind eye to double standards here... It's not even funny.

Scary-Mouse4817 · 2025-11-21T17:53:47+00:00

I don't think its hypocrisy.

But I think if woman are not the initiators then they don't deserve the same outcomes as men.

And people instinctively believe and know this, which is why women will never be as respected as men on a one for one level, a direct comparison level, in society, in life. This pisses (some) women off, but they should think about why this is the case.

It would be hypocrisy if women said "we don't want to work as hard as men, but we want the same material outcomes as men!". Which is analogous to the initiator vs. recipient dynamic.

mcmlxiv1 · 2025-11-21T17:59:10+00:00

Women say this knowing that men will still approach them. At the end of the day they say things that sounds nice but know full well that men will still adhere to the biological wiring.

Any woman that says how amazing their single life is knows that they can change that in an instant. It’s a flex.

People who are truly lonely don’t like it. That’s why prisons exist, being alone is a punishment.

brassbuffalo · 2025-11-21T22:34:23+00:00

"Men are free individuals and they are not constantly acting as agents of feminism in their personal lives. Feminism can promote the idea that men should do more housechores, but it won't change the fact that men are more comfortable letting women do them, just like it can't force men to defy other gender roles in other ways, like wearing women's clothing, or doing most of the childcare.

There is no injustice here. Women are free to boycott doing housework, and either men will be forced to start cleaning or live in a dirty house."

If what you said was true I see no reason why this statement couldn't work either. Or maybe both statements are wrong ¯_(ツ)_/¯

analt223 · 2025-11-21T19:12:47+00:00

I think a lot of the pushback is that a lot of men were raised now (under the age of 40 or so) that "all differences between men and women are a part of social constructs". So women should be approaching more often based on this obsession with 50/50 ratios alone that feminism had for a fair bit of time.

I will say one thing that 4th (arguably we are in a 5th wave of feminism now as i think 4th wave was around 2007ish to maybe covid/just after covid) wave feminism has done is started to realize that discussion about social constructs/deconstruction only goes so far.

We are already seeing that people are going without dates, and are lonely. Finally, i think another question is is it feminist and empowering to pick and choose what aspects of feminism you (women primarily) want to adopt in their day to day life? Or is it hypocritical to have this buffet style of feminism which almost always be women taking all the easy and fun stuff but then the difficult stuff rely on men.

PuzzleheadedGrab8375 · 2025-11-21T21:11:56+00:00

I think it is totally fine for feminists to uphold that gender norm.

But the moment you say you’re a radical feminist (aka gender abolitionist) and uphold this gender norm you’re making a laughing stock out of yourself. You can’t argue for just abolishing the gender norms you happen to dislike. That is intellectual surrender.

But for all “non- radical” feminists i can’t detect any hypocrisy.

Independent-Mail-227 · 2025-11-21T23:20:40+00:00

You understand that even if men boycott anything the system that allow women to act they way they do are still in place right? That the government will still give tons of advantages and still cover the risks of female sexuallity. You do understand this right?

Large_Bed_4251 · 2025-11-22T16:05:51+00:00

This is why Bill Burr rightly pointed out that women see equality as a buffet where you just take the stuff you like.

Tbf men would do the same thing if they could

bruhholyshiet · 2025-11-21T17:51:29+00:00

It’s kinda tricky and messy.

I think it would be nice for men and women to approach each other more or less in equal amounts, rather than men overwhelmingly approaching often coming around as pestering (either deliberately or accidentally) and women merely giving “hints” (which aren’t even universal, what’s a hint for a woman is simply being friendly for another).

Buuuuuuut it’s not gonna happen anytime soon. The truth remains men have lower standards and a greater desire to pursue women, at least for casual sex. Call it biology, call it social conditioning, call it both, it doesn’t make much of a difference. The truth remains men desire women more than the other way around.

That means men will keep overwhelmingly approaching and women will have the luxury of not having to take the risk at nearly the same rate. This is even a pattern that repeats in many mammal species. It’s like the male is sort of programmed to crave sex much more than the female.

WebNew9978 · 2025-11-21T17:54:13+00:00

It all goes back to the idea that a romantic and sex life is one of our most greatest wants in life and never even having a chance to have one. We all want to have a chance to have one. Does that mean anyone has to give us that chance? No but our desires are just as important as the desires of the men women do want to be with.

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stockingsinrainboots · 2025-11-21T20:19:23+00:00

I think it's largely a matter of women having less personal incentive to approach. When I was single I cared less about finding someone than my male counterparts did, and I think that may be generally true, at least to some extent.

Kotja · 2025-11-22T08:44:31+00:00

But they criticize how men do initiatie a lot.

I feel like wife from those stories, where husband criticizes her housework, despite doing none. Wife then snaps and says that husband does housework now. Lot of comedy happens to husband doing housework.

If I have to make said husband to criticize wife's housework as much feminists criticize male approach, he would run his finger in white glove across surface nearly impossible to reach. He would be forced to eat that glove afterwards.

P.S. Like your Amálka avatar.

savethebros · 2025-11-22T23:54:42+00:00

If feminist women are allowed to abide by some patriarchal dating norms, then they have no right to complain when conservative men do the same.

cuddly--suar · 2025-11-21T18:24:13+00:00

Its not appropriate to blame feminism but I do think women should be allowed to be more proactive instead of only men making the firsy move

Tylikcat · 2025-11-21T21:53:13+00:00

And right now most younger folks are anxious, and more socially isolated and introverted than what we've seen in past times.

Women aren't required to approach men - more to the point, no one is required to approach you in particular. Women doing more approaching won't mean that you'll be approached. And right now, with the general anxious introvert profile riding high, I don't think anyone is well served lurking around hoping someone will approach them. This is what I tell women too. (Young men and young women just aren't spending enough time together in person.)

There's also a lot to be said for being the one who does the approaching. (Which is also something I point out to other women.) Back in the day, sure, I was approached all the time. Hell, it hasn't exactly stopped, and I work hard to look like the middle aged professor I am. But it wasn't a very efficient way to date the folks I was interested in, which was never most guys. So I've tended to do the majority of the approaching, which worked great for me.

(Or, y'know, I was at a party, and a friendly acquaintance gave me and another friend / sometimes lover home, and then I took both of them to bed, and ended up dating the person who used to be a friendly acquaintance for eight years. I'm not sure if approaching exactly came into it?)

Solondthewookiee · 2025-11-21T17:48:21+00:00

A lot of men here struggle with the idea that a woman not wanting to date them is not oppression.

Quantum_Supremacist · 2025-11-21T18:45:17+00:00

I like the way it works. I don't need to do much of anything other than ignore indications of interest. That's a priviledge.

QuestionMS · 2025-11-23T01:51:59+00:00

Feminists can promote the idea that women approaching men should be socially acceptable, but it won't change the fact that most women are more comfortable dating men who bother approaching them, just like it can't force women to defy gender roles in other ways, like wearing men's clothing or taking on traditionally male jobs.

There are entire scholarships and government programs that go into encouraging women to be in certain male-dominated fields. Programs stretching decades, outreach organizations, academic research done on increasing female membership, etc.

You think it's impossible for funding amounting to even a fraction of that to go into combatting gender norms in relationships?

You really think that's "too radical" an idea? To counter gender norms surrounding which gender initiates?

You are creative when it comes to ways to help women, but that creativity leaves the room when it's time to help anyone else. That is because you are a fundamentally selfish person. You cannot think beyond what can be done to benefit you.

What a shameful lack of creativity, u/ThotismSpeaks.

Avast_Lion · 2025-11-21T19:06:52+00:00

I mean, I think it is good to challenge gender roles, because it sets a precedent that makes it easier for other people to do the same. Personally, I ask out all people I am genuinely interested in, compatible with, and think I have a chance with. I never think "this guy would be a good match, but HE has to ask me out because he's the man." I think everyone should do it like this.

Now, lots of men choose to play a "numbers game," going on dating apps where men are hugely overrepresented and asking asking out a ton of women they don't really like all that much or have compatibility with in hopes that ONE of them will say yes, rather than forming social networks that include women and getting to know them. This is a dating strategy, like the "sit around and wait" dating strategy, that they are free to do but that does reinforce gender roles. Which is fine. Not everyone has to challenge all gender roles all the time. I shave my legs and armpits, and that's complying with gender roles.* But it's weird to say "I chose to ask out as many women as possible including strangers on the street. Why have I asked out so many women? Feminism made me >:("

*Though I admire women who don't, because they are setting a precedent at a social cost that makes it easier for other women to not comply with that gender role.

Apart-Gap2690 · 2025-11-22T07:07:05+00:00

Hashtag restrict the dick?

I honestly think it might earn men respect from women. Women have proven that they can live without men. It's time for men to prove that they can live without women.

BougieHeaux · 2025-11-21T18:29:33+00:00

Men loudly begging for equality with women is becoming my kink.

Superannuated_punk · 2025-11-21T17:52:32+00:00

The dudes who think this just aren’t getting approached.

Women can smell the aggrieved entitlement seeping from their pores.

Ignisyourface · 2025-11-21T19:52:44+00:00

I never approach men in the way that men approach women. If I’m interested in a man, I ‘drop the handkerchief’ and give him the opportunity to approach me if he so desires.

Humans, but ESPECIALLY men, do not value things that come easy. They only ‘like’ easy women because, well they’re easy but men do not value, respect, or love women who make it too easy.

So as a woman, it’s never in my best interest.

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ChewedMyWayOutOfThat · 2025-11-21T20:44:29+00:00

Are we piling more work on women now? Men already do less than half the childcare and household chores, despite their wives having their own full-time job. They don't do any administrative work for women like women do for men constantly. They also don't do any care work for their partners and elderly parents. Women who fall ill have a 20% chance of getting divorced. Women already do the majority of kinkeeping work that keeps relationships strong.

Men also don't go through pregnancy or childbirth and they do very little childcare for the children they wanted so much. Men want children more than women do, and they benefit greatly from being perceived as a husband and father, while doing as little work as possible.

Now women are expected to court the men?

So what exactly are men's jobs? Take the trash out every week, mow the lawn once a month during the warm months and take the car in for servicing once a year, where they just sit there and wait for someone else to do the job?

Title	Men being the ones to initiate is not a failure of feminism
Author	ThotismSpeaks
Upvotes	0
Comments	282
Date	November 21, 2025 5:44 PM UTC (7 months ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1p355sy/men_being_the_ones_to_initiate_is_not_a_failure/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/men-being-the-ones-to-initiate-is-not-a-failure-of.1567068 https://theredarchive.com/post/1567068

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