OPEN Q&A THREAD FOR MEN: Why are you shocked at how terrible males are? 😦

Lolbertarian42069 · 2020-02-06T20:32:28+00:00

Honestly, nothing here shocks me. It's repulsive, but any man who says "wow I had no idea you guys had to deal this this!!" has either lived their entire life with their head 10 feet under the sand or they're lying. I work in Criminal/Family Law (CPS cases) so grotesque behavior isn't much of a surprise at this point. We just had a case where an 8 year old child was continuously molested by her father (we do not represent the abuser, ever). At one point I had to speak with the father on the phone, and guess how he sounded? Normal, chipper, not a care in the world. If I didn't read the police report, I would have no idea who I was talking to. Abusers can be anyone, and chances are most men here are friends with one and don't know it (or they're choosing to ignore the signs).

About 3 years ago I heard a scream in the parking lot of my apartment complex so I ran over to see what happened. I found a woman, in her 40s, lying in the ground crying. I helped her up and asked her what happened, only for a man about 50 feet in front of us to yell at her, "There! There's your help". She revealed the man was her husband who had just physically assaulted her and thrown her to the ground. She went on to talk with me for about 20 minutes about all of the abuse that she suffered, and showed me pictured of her last hospitalization where he knocked her teeth out. In reference to the event where he knocked her teeth out, he later said "I should have finished the job". I pleaded with her to let me call the police but she was afraid, and eventually left our conversation because of fear that her husband was going home to harm her dogs (something he would do whenever he was mad at her). Even though she wouldn't call the police, I feared for her life and felt that if someone didn't intervene she would soon be dead. I filed a police report that night, and in December of 2018 I was the state's only witness in her husband's probation revocation hearing. He got sentenced to 10 years in jail, and as of a month ago his parole was denied.

When I told my male friends about it, the responses ranged from disinterest to confusion as to why I would get involved in the first place. Those reactions told me everything I needed to know. Men, on the average, don't have a lot of empathy. I read this sub because it's a breath of sanity on reddit. Men who complain about dOubLe StAnDarDs for men and women and men who tout punching a woman in response to a push as "equal rights" are so far removed from the dangerous, violent reality that woman have to live in every day. My heart goes out to anyone here who has been a victim of physical or emotional abuse of any kind.

NoThisIs-Patrick · 2020-02-06T16:37:58+00:00

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itsamberleafable · 2020-02-06T14:34:00+00:00

TL;DR - Thanks for pulling no punches and helping me learn.

I'm shocked by it because I don't see it or experience it. Men tend not to do this behaviour in front of other men so I went through most of my life thinking it happened way less than it did. In my experience most of my girl mates won't talk about this sort of thing because they're used to it or think guys aren't interested, which is why I started asking about it around 5 years ago after chatting to my girlfriend about it (when appropriate of course). I know that women get catcalled way more than we actually think, and most of my girl mates have been in at least one abusive relationship (not necessarily physical), many of my girl mates have had stalkers and all of them receive regular horrible creepy messages on dating apps when they've used them. Not even mentioning the amount of times my girl mates have really liked someone only to suddenly be treated with 0 respect and get ghosted. There's plenty more, but honestly the list is too long to mention everything. If you do the numbers roughly you can work out that there's a lot of horrible, shitty, abusive guys out there, and you clearly need some sort of strategy to avoid them.

One thing I would say is make sure the decent guys in your life are aware of the shit you have to put up with. The amount of times I've heard guys my age react in shock to this information means that there's probably loads of guys who haven't the faintest idea this is happening. I know it's our fault for being naive, but often if it isn't happening in front of you it's easy to underestimate something. Not excusing this of course and I know we're dense as shit sometimes, but just tell us. The more guys that are aware of this, the better.

I actually joined this sub to get your perspective, because I'm sure there's ways I abuse my male privilege without meaning to. This sub pulls no punches, gives men 0 excuses, and doesn't allow men to comment which makes it an excellent learning resource for men trying to better themselves. If I don't agree with something I can't open my big mouth which means I have to reflect. I may still disagree with a comment, but I will at very least understand the reasons behind the comment. Some of the posts have been really enlightening helped me make positive changes in myself, which although it might not be your intention has helped me. I wasn't really sure what I was going to say when I set out writing this post, but I guess I'm thanking you for speaking freely and not taking any shit.

Thank you!

Force_of1 · 2020-02-06T14:50:09+00:00

This sub has at times been eye opening, cringe inducing and highly educational for me.

I was fortunate to be brought up by a HV father who respected and revered my mother. I am working hard to be that type of role model for my son.

It has made me nervous af for my daughter. You always realize that men can be assholes - but as I try to surround myself with quality people- you don’t always see the full scope of behaviors.

Getting a behind the curtain view into the cultural misogyny, biases, behaviors has been heartbreaking and eye opening.

Please know- there are good men out there, and we have zero issues with this sub. I will share it with my daughter when she gets to an appropriate age, and am more aware / willing to call out other wrongs when I see them.

Thanks for what you are doing.

throughcracker · 2020-02-06T16:22:02+00:00

I'm always shocked by how little other men know about basic life skills. I can cook, clean, do laundry, repair stuff, and generally take care of myself and I still don't think I'm where I should be. The fact that some dudes get freaked out by nail clippers, the vaccuum, or a box of mac n cheese absolutely boggles my mind.

Edit to add: also want to thank the sub in general for helping me realize LV traits in myself. I'm leveling up!

ny-lady · 2020-02-06T13:22:23+00:00

I had cat callers by 11 years old, have been groped by multiple strange men in public places and Ive had my butt smacked several times by strange men too just walking through a crowd, etc.

Also those that blow their horn scaring the crap out of you driving by as a 'cat call'.

Ive lost cont on how many strange men have touched me and invaded my space when Im minding my own business.

Ive been assaulted by a man and more or less blamed for it by the police and they treated me like garbage.

Thelobsterlord · 2020-02-06T13:08:23+00:00

Honestly I think the way a lot of men behave is super creepy and I'm super sorry for what happened to a lot of the women here.

One of my friends has an ex who keeps stalking her and it's truly haunting how she always has this knowledge that he could be anywhere close to her but wont be able to know when hes there. Horrifying.

Since I myself am not one who ever had such an experience it's hard to grasp the reality of it.

I just wish the best for all of you and hope that you won't let all of these folks get you down.

HeadTorsoArmsLegs · 2020-02-06T13:31:58+00:00

I remember the first time I really realized how normalized this behavior can be. A female coworker of mine was known to have “revenge porn” videos of her online abc several male coworkers were talking about it at a happy hour one night. The way they were talking about it was so casual it was unsettling. They asked me if I watched the vids and was just like “no i find that incredibly violating and wrong.” And their reaction and attitude instantly changed. They all got nervous and put on a “yeah i was just kidding” attitude. Then i remembered when I had done the exact same thing years prior but i wasn’t affected because I didn’t know the person.

When i was a teen, I had viewed several hacked celebs pics and honestly looking back on it i just feel ashamed and guilty. I was exposed to someone in a way i shouldn’t have been, and I recognize that this is normal behavior amongst a lot of men to view and share. Seeing these grown adults speak so nonchalantly publicly about violating this girl just unsettled me. I don’t keep up with any of them anymore.

I can’t take back what I did but I can learn from it. This sub has also helped me realize how desensitizing porn can be to what’s supposed to be one of life’s most incredible and satisfying experiences and to discuss it with my peers. At least one of them agrees with me.

I can’t speak for every man just as I wouldn’t expect you all to speak for every woman. I am not surprised by the depravity if some people but, like this sub espouses, there are good people out there looking for companionship to get through the inherent chaos that is life. I think it’s a good thing that there are people discussing ways to protect themselves from manipulation or coercion.

I wish you all well.

balladwilds · 2020-02-06T13:40:25+00:00

This is so true i keep noticing that. Ugly men are so entitled i really wonder how can they think they can get a woman way out of their league. They don't even try to be nice why? Because they know its a lost cause. Deep down they know they can't have you but they still wish and fantacize about you. Its absolutely disgusting.

cannedboelyn · 2020-02-06T15:44:11+00:00

A lot of men always assume that it’s Chad that treats women like this but in my experience there were more guys who were fat and unattractive doing this

olivegram · 2020-02-06T16:36:23+00:00

This may be a little off topic:

As a woman who was considered "radically feminist" for my small town, (but now understand that I actually held conservative views relative to the rest of the nation) can I just say I am extremely grateful to this sub and it's mods?

This sub (and some others like r/notlikeothergirls , etc.) has really opened my eyes to hidden and engrained bias against modern women. The safe space created here has really allowed my mindset to grow.

No one would know this based off my appearance and attitude, but I used to think to myself "I know I don't want to be a boy, I just don't want to be treated like a girl."

I since phased out of that mindset and later discovered this sub, which helped me tackle some of my internal bias and feel comfortable in my own skin. I find it amazing that so many men ACTUALLY WANT you to feel uncomfortable being a woman, (and don't feel comfortable with THEMSELVES until you do) while not being able to comprehend any other perspective other than themselves and their own penis.

It hit me today reading this post how much hate the mods must wake up to everyday. Thanks for filtering out the smut so I can gain some perspective on myself!! I am finally comfortable being a woman and this sub helped me on my journey. Just wanted to comment some positivity amongst the negativity that gets filtered out daily.

Clayshaw22 · 2020-02-06T15:27:59+00:00

I don't really have an answer to your question, but I've been lurking here for a little while as a man who's lived most of my life as a nice guy/incel type who's blamed women for my failures. Turns out that's easy to do when I actively avoid women's perspectives on things and stick to reading about other angry guys like I was.

One thing I realized here is that this sub is literally the first place (irl or on reddit) that made me stop to think using porn every day shouldn't be a regular part of life. I was in complete denial that I had an addiction, that I looked at women like objects, and that my creepy stares in public weren't discrete and they did actually make someone uncomfortable.

I guess that does answer the question, really. I'm not shocked at all that men do these things because I did it too without even realizing it was causing harm. My guess is that guys who send hate mail to the ladies here were in the same boat as me in that they recognized they had problems but denied that they were causing harm to real people. Reading your stories of the real harm being caused leads to cognitive dissonance and then even more anger and lashing out. My only hope is that recognizing this behaviour can lead to me actually changing for the better soon

ivy176 · 2020-02-07T00:14:12+00:00

My ex was fat, with big DD manboobs, ugly, horrible jagged crooked teeth and infected gums, weak jaw, smelly ear piercings, scruffy patchy facial hair, no money.. and he treated me like shit. Very abusive stuff, like swearing at me and calling me names every day and hitting me.

He never did it in front of people and I didn't discuss it with people.

My situation is not rare, I am a normal person from a normal family. Not trailer trash, no crack addicted parents or any of that stereotypical crap. I didn't even realise it was happening because it built up over 10 years.

I've also been stalked and had a man show up at my house when I was underage. He was 15 years older.

I've had a 17 year old boy sexually assault me when I was 25. He grabbed me from behind, restraining me and rubbing himself on me and said let's go have sex over there.

My ex abusive husband raped me while I was on medication to make me sleep

I had a boyfriend who was 21 when I was 15, he was doing sexual things with me and I had no idea he had a girlfriend with kids.

I am afraid to walk in the street at night, I don't do it. Most women feel that way. I am afraid to walk in a quiet park in the day time.

I can't sleep in the same bed as another person since my ex husband, so that affects my relationship and being able to go on holiday together.

I have PTSD, chronic anxiety and chronic physical health conditions from my ex marriage. People don't realise that being stressed and abused every day can make you physically ill with autoimmune diseases, chronic fatigue, heart disease and all sorts of things. Your body malfunctions when there is too much psychological stress and cortisol long term.

I was also left with lots of debt because my ex wouldn't work for years and I struggled to support us both. But men go on and on about how little rights they have and how women always financially benefit from divorce. They even have the nerve to call it divorce rape.

My ex husband believed in female privilege and that women get everything in life. He was vocal about men needing more protection from domestic violence. He was a wife beater, he was 100% financially supported by his wife and was never taken advantage of or abused etc. So... men need to realise that these types are active in mens rights/MGTOW/red pill communities.

People think hardly any women get beat up or abused by men. I can't believe it even happened to me, it's a total blur and feels like another century ago. But my body and brain remember. People assume that if a man cries online and acts like a victim then he must of been treated really badly by his female partner.. but like there are so many delusional scary guys with unjustified victim complexes.

Men that hit women often feel like the biggest victims of all. They are not tough guys who are just angry, or psychotic people with rare personality disorders. They are just men who feel really wronged by the world. They lack remorse because they feel like they always got hurt more and hurt worse, no matter what they did.

I'm so sick of hearing from men how angry they are that we expect them to pay for dates they invite us to. They msg me saying HOW DARE YOU EXPECT A MAN TO PAY FOR YOUR WHOLE LIFE!!! And I'm like dude.. I financially supported a man in his 30s for 5 years while he abused me and hit me... and you think I have no right to expect a man to pay for a meal he invited me to? Or you think I'm just expecting it because I'm lazy and entitled? No I expect it because men with big victim complexes are dangerous and they're more likely to expect the woman to pay. I get messages calling me a gold digger and it's like... um.. my ex husband was a gold digger, I had my gold all dug out, I was the one left with 30k debt. So no, I don't want a scrub who can't afford to eat and I don't want a man who thinks he should have to put zero effort into romance or dating. Because I've already let a No Value Man destroy necessary parts of me that I needed to live a happy healthy life. I don't know what feeling ok feels like anymore. So yeah, if a man's interested in me, I'm going to be ultra cautious and on high alert and I'm going to expect him to make gestures that show he wants to put in effort, has respect for women and doesn't have a dangerous victim complex. Because I have no years left, no health bar left, no spare resources left to risk on anybody.

Stop viewing women as princesses who glide around getting whatever they want with no effort. You have no idea what we've been through. I had the fundamentals of my life ruined by my ex - health, mental health, finances, etc. I have low quality of life and feel like I'll be waiting to start living until the day I die. My life slipped through my hands because of men and my stupid decision to stay with him which was pushed on me by my outside world. Women are pressured to make marriages work and raise kids and put up with things that can literally kill you.

Even if you try to explain all of this to men, they'll often just say it was because you must have unusual daddy issues that caused you to let abuse happen to you. Or they'll believe domestic violence only happens to certain types of women like trailer park dwellers or people on drugs, cause they were practically asking for it apparently. They don't believe that a bunch of normal women walking around with respectable jobs have been raped or physically abused by men. We are all still walking around and functioning because we're conditioned into thinking abuse is not such a big deal.

I have told people I've been physically abused and not one person in my life ever acted shocked, upset, or anything like that. It was always just like.. um.. oh.. that sucks? Um.. yeah, I wouldn't have thought he'd ever do that" and that's it. I never brought it up again and neither did they. My mum didn't even know what to say. Nobody really cares. It's like welp let's all move on, he was just a dick. But my body doesn't move on, the long term consequences dont move on. I brought it up in a session with a male psychologist and he DID NOT ASK ME ANYTHING ABOUT IT. He pretended he didn't hear it. It was towards the end of the session and I assumed he'd ask a few questions to make sure I was safe and urge me to make another appointment to discuss it further. But no, he said "you don't need another appointment at this stage do you" and rushed me out. A fucking psychologist. I then tried to see a woman and she just said "that must of been hard for you" and didn't go into it. How the fuck are you meant to get trauma therapy exactly? She said she has 25 yrs experience with PTSD

P.s. my horrible ex is also very active in Christian church and everyone thinks he's a nice laid back guy. He impregnated some woman after I kicked him out and got adopted by her/her family with zero consequences. I'm the crazy ex, and our mutual friends still chat with him and encourage him. Not my friends anymore obviously. People don't want to think about abuse, seems it's human nature to push it under the rug which is why it's happened to way more women than anyone would realise.

closetskeleton_girl · 2020-02-06T15:07:13+00:00

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WillingBeing · 2020-02-06T14:32:40+00:00

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Shenaniboozle · 2020-02-06T16:20:15+00:00

What makes you think Im shocked by how terrible males are?

I have seen a man force open and attempt to crawl thru a drive thru window to get to a co-worker of mine because she wasnt giving him the reaction he expected to his pickup lines and no doubt tempting offer of the best dick ever. I zip over to keep this guy out, ill be honest, I was pretty amped over the completely justified opportunity to slam someones head in the sliding window, and I stated as much. She stopped me. "NO! youre just going to make it worse!" "What? im gonna, ju-" "shhhh-- Let me handle it, well talk later."

And handle it she did. It was awful to watch. It left me partially convince Jedi mind tricks are real. 15 minutes or so of a weird downward spiraling of slight ego strokes and subtle de-escalations, and he drove off.

She explained to me that while she would have paid real money to watch me scalp that dude with the window, she probably would have been fired for it. If that man complained that she wasnt friendly enough, she could get fired or demoted over it. Basically if that motherfucker slipped on a banana peel while she was in line of sight, she was going to get screwed over it.

A couple of months later we were talking about creeps dudes and I brought that guy up. She gave me a blank look. I had to bring up more details, "Ohhhh yeah, that guy yeah..."

What shocked me here isnt some guy "acting" like hes monster in a slasher flick, no, what shocked me was that my 5'2" coworker deals with this kind of stuff so often that she views it as unremarkable.

Most of my friends have been women, so, Ive either got to witness a ton more scenes like that 1st hand, or been treated to a retelling. I still dont know what to say when Im shown a full sleeve of deep fingertip and fist shaped bruises. I dont even know what to think when im told they go all down to the calf on that side.

I was already long married by the time the OLD scene came around. Never been Tinder, Never sent a dick pick. I dont understand it tbh. Im trying to picture who might be amazed by the miracle of erection, but Im drawing a blank. But I see a lot of women complain about the rogues gallery of unsolicited dick picks they receive, and yeah, that sounds gross, but Ive never seen anyone say why that particular picture type has the hard negative impact it does. So, Im going to take a stab at it. If Im going off in the wrong direction whathaveyou, Id really like to know, but anyways, my theory:

Im assumming it happens out fo the blue during an otherwise normal light, friendly conversation. Im also assuming that very few if any of the pics are with a limp dick. So if theyre not sending a softie, that means they have an erection, and this to me implies that they are masturbating while chatting to you. You think your having a decent conversation, making a connection, but your chat buddy is having a tug-o-war with cyclops. And he just sent proof. Needle scratch, You realize that he didnt "hear" a word you said, and it leaves you feeling tricked, taints everything with that person, and puts everything into a suspicious light. Makes you feel like they were only talking to you for one thing and one thing only and didnt give a shit about anything else. Leaving you with little or any doubt about the value they place on you.

So...? did I come close there? way off?

If any of these ugly ass men get a chance with a woman in their league or even above they will act like just like

I would say that doesnt go far enough.

If any of these weak men get an opportunity to have power over anyone they will exploit it ruthlessly.

Ive lost cont on how many strange men have touched me and invaded my space when Im minding my own business.

From behind, or from great distance, or corner of eye I get mistaken for a woman quite a bit. A curiously powerfully built woman with meathook hands and mannish walk, but I guess everyone has their type. Ive been followed, Ive actually had my ass grabbed, a hand placed on my shoulder, and a couple, "hey babe" type calls. So I really feel I can empathize with you, but Im not going to bullshit you and say I totally understand, cause thats where it ends for me. The guys following me thru walmart, one of them finally convince their buddy that thats a dude, and then comes an, "everyone laughs" moment. Or I say my wallets on the other side.. Basically, it never goes beyond annoyance for me sometimes its even amusing, They realize its guy, they can see Im more trouble than Im worth to try to fight me, and they just scamper away. I know there has to be an element of fear for women when that happens, and while I can appreciate that, I dont get it, if that makes sense.

Accurately describing the behavior of men sounds misandrist because you’re ACTUALLY TERRIBLE AS A GROUP.

Poison is marked as such for safety reasons. If you were expecting argument fodder, I hate to disappoint, but your not going to get one from me. In fact I dont think it goes far enough. I read commonly on the FDS boards how OLD is safe, or safer, and maybe it is, and maybe its unfair of me to point at that. But I think it makes it sound like there is an on/off switch to turn off unwanted, creepy, or even dangerous attention. Im looking at the sidebar right now, and its informing me that there are 1,101 Bitches Here Bonding Right Now. How many of them work retail? Fast Food, or really any restaurant? How many are compelled to make small talk with anyone that makes eye contact? Their name revealed to anyone who can see their name tag? Someone I dont know calling me by name kinda freaks me out, Hooooly shit, I cant even imagine if it was coming from someone I considered menacing and a possible threat. Point Im slowly getting at is there are men who are always out there, always hunting, always waiting, and unlike the lottery, you dont need a ticket to play. I feel like a bastard for typing that out.

For awhile, Liz_Lemondrop had on the sidebar "male lurkers want a flair to post on fds?" And she offered for 5 redpill type scalps a flair. I thought challenge accepted!

No... I was not up to that challenge, its was like where do you even start? it was infinite, and afaik no victory condition to be had in any conversation just broken warped garbage.

And I know it sounds like sour grapes, but it is not. Im assuming it was a genuine offer, but even If had earned it, I dont think I could allow myself to use it, because this really should be an area just for women's voices. And also for the reason I would not identify myself as an ally, I dont think you should drop your guard for a second, and I will not be a party to that.

I guess I really dont have a question. But I will say that I am amazed at the strength that women develop just from what they have to deal with in day to day life, and ashamed that more often than not they are forced to squander it on mere survival.

hekcellfarmer · 2020-02-07T00:14:05+00:00

I’m not shocked by how terrible men are...ultimately most recognized philosophical works of which many are foundational religious texts thousands of years old come to the conclusion that men are inherently evil and being good is a constant battle against intrinsic desire. I am surprised that women here expect “HVMs” to be on dating apps which are stereotyped to be places for satiating ones desires and not in more refined settings where people who actively control their intrinsic evil would be more commonly found.

UnconsciousBugbear · 2020-02-06T14:00:54+00:00

I knew there were terrible men, I just never associated with any of them. It wasn't until I looked online at personal accounts that I realized it's more common than I thought.

I'm a recent lurker to this sub, but from what I read I'm cool with the FDS. It sounds like a way to find a respectable partner that promotes growth instead of complacency.

This sub gives me a way to make sure I don't fall into bad habits, so thanks. Be safe have fun.

modernmedusaa · 2020-02-06T22:38:18+00:00

PREACH! So many wannabe chads

unclejoesmomma · 2020-02-06T14:10:29+00:00

I'm not shocked at all about how shitty some men can be, or even how frequently women get treated this way. I get shocked when I find out that one of my friends is among these men.

Chisox2005 · 2020-02-06T18:49:04+00:00

First of all, good morning all. I found this sub a while ago and I thought it was both fascinating and terrifying. My father is a very awesome role model on how to treat a woman. He always did the cooking and helped out with chores, never yelled or talked down to partners, etc.. So that was a natural starting point for me and how I always assumed most men treated women in my youth. Damn I couldn't have been more wrong on that.

I have several close female friends and it's always enlightening to hear about their experiences. But I was not prepared for what I have found here. I simply cannot believe the type of harassment and degradation that women have to deal with on a daily basis. What type of person could devalue others like this, I'll never know. Just that mentality in itself is such a foreign concept. Most of my friends are married or in seemingly healthy long term relationships and these types of behaviors are not visible.

What began to make me aware of this (and made me start reading this sub) is last summer, myself (41m), and 2 close friends (32f) and (33f) all were single and decided to join a dating site. I'm not sure if we're allowed to use names here, so it's the one that is a type of bee. While I had a pretty normal positive experience, my friends had quite the opposite. I ended up meeting a couple of normal women that we had great conversations and time together. Didn't work out but it was just chemistry issues which we both mutually acknowledged and enjoyed our time anyway. My friends, however, had VERY different experiences. Both of the girls received numerous unsolicited dick picks, zero respect as human beings, and were treated solely as objects. The phrase "yo girl" has become a running joke. One of them was actually attacked as a result of meeting someone. The guy followed her home and tried to kidnap her at gunpoint. Luckily she was able to scream, get help from neighbors, and the police were able to catch him.

So...yeah. In my personal experience, I guess it's simply not being exposed to these types of behaviors that made me unaware. Since that day I held my friend as she told me about her terrible experience, I wanted to become more aware and involved. I've always voted progressive and supported equal rights but not sure how to help further besides being an ally? Thanks for allowing the time to share and have a great day.

FDScheerleader · 2020-02-06T21:44:42+00:00

Been waiting for one of these. When I first started lurking here 14-16 weeks ago, I felt defensive, angry, and overwhelmed by the candid, truthful nature of these posts ... until right before the new year, when I conceded most of what you're "demanding" should be common courtesy.

Now, I'm frankly inspired by how you're raising each other up! After my wife of 16 years filed for divorce this past summer, I naturally gravitated toward TRP and PUA to stoke my disdain of women and gain an "upper hand" (obviously, as a man, it's in our instincts to blame women instead of reflecting on our own faults). It almost sucked me in, but a lot of the overt manipulation tactics didn't sit quite right with me and the communities seemed like a bunch of man babies whining about how evil wahmen were ruining their lives and society.

I'm glad I stuck around here, though, because it made me do three things I hadn't done enough of... be critically self-aware of my past actions, as well as knocking down my over-inflated sense of self worth a few pegs. Also, I didn't look at dating from a female perspective before because I was so comfortable in my marriage. And wow, I think more men would benefit from realizing just how unspecial they are, I know I have!

Here are a few changes I've made from the revelations I've had here which have drastically altered my outlook.

acknowledging I'm largely responsible for being divorced based on my actions for the first 13 of 16 years of it. Despite my improvements the last couple years, once I woke up from the anti depressant induced, emotionless robotic trance I was in, it didn't matter. The damage of me treating her like a mommy who also gave me sex was already done and I didn't do enough to be equals until it was too late. I'm committed to not making the same mistake the next time around.
Just because I'm good looking enough to have sex with girls in their young to mid twenties doesn't make it a good idea. You're right (again), it's predatory and is more of a reflection about my own shortcomings than it is a "natural attraction" like TRP had lead me to believe. (I'm 38 btw). The ones who fawn over me likely have subconscious daddy issues and I'd be best served pointing them here rather than taking advantage of them, further messing up their psyche (I've referred a half dozen pickmeisha's here this year).
Stepping bank and understanding that jumping into new relationships without fully taking the time to heal from the last one lends itself to codependent partnerships which inevitably fall apart. Some more spectacularly disasterful than others. Men are just as guilty, probably moreso, of getting into another relationship right away to soothe their own insecurities/issues and that just creates more traumatized women. I'm committed to breaking that cycle and hold off on dating until I don't feel like I "need" a woman to complete myself. I'm getting there.
low value dick REALLY IS abundant and I'm not that special, especially for a HVW. That's why I'm attracting pickmeisha's, because I'm not ready for the big leagues quite yet. I'd be no better than a rotational option. It does more harm than good when trying to date with unresolved issues even though it seems like a good idea.

I suspect I'm not the only scrote you're also inspiring to level himself up and look at it from a different perspective. Props to the mods for being ruthless. And props to all of you reading this. 2020's gonna be your year!

Noob_yolo · 2020-02-06T19:20:55+00:00

FDS is an amazing Sub! This place has helped me improve who I am as a person and has shown me a path to a happy relationship.

I do not want to be “that guy”, the LVM that causes so much harm. I look to this sub so I can be a better, man to my female co-workers, better Husband for my wife, a better father for my son. I want to set a good example of what a HVM is for my son so that he too becomes a HVM.

Thank you FDS!!

MBRV · 2020-02-06T18:23:09+00:00

I am not shocked, this sub just confirmed my observations. I'm 27yo, not HMV, but never hated women for not choosing me. /r/femaledatingstrategy and /r/trufmcels are among my favorite subs, so much truths and actually funny people, I wish men support groups were like that, but they're toxic as hell. Internet is full of people who are going to make death threats to you just because you state simple facts or refuse to treat men like heroes just because they're decent people.

Well, thank you for just existing, reading your post improved me more than any bro advice, but sometimes it's just very uncomfortable to feel like I actually HATE men and can't expect much from them. Example - having male roommate is terrible, you have to control them to do basic home chores and many of them act annoyed that you don't want to live in dirty place. I know many women are the same but for men it seems almost everyone is like that. I started noticing it after reading YOU so feel responsible haha. One even told me to "stop fathering them", I was just angry they vomited on their pillow, throw it under the sink and left for few days.

And these are young men, my father and his generation are even worse. He's alcoholic smoker and often have arguments for money with mom, sometimes she refuses to share and says "this month we are feeding themselves", it always ends with his capitulation because he can't into groceries shopping. Once he came to doc and was malnourished, blamed wife because she didn't cook for him.

Sorry for making it about myself, but there are so many bad things about men I've seen in my life and you're the the people who won't say it's too far to say those thing are common. They're, people just overlook them to don't feel bad. Once again. thank you girls. Wish you the best!

ActualDeest · 2020-02-06T16:25:36+00:00

Male lurker here.

First of all, i lurk on this sub so i can learn. Plain and simple. I want a high value woman, and so i want to be a high value man. I want to know how not to act and what not to do. I want to be worth starting a family with and worth having goals with.

I think the biggest problem with dating, society, and relationships these days is that men have lost their grip on what it means to be a man. Lost their grip on the fact that competence, honesty, and being trustworthy are what matters as a man.

A friend of mine (young woman) asked me a few weeks ago what my "dating strategy" consists of. And my response was "well, step one is to be a remarkable person." I really believe that, and i genuinely think men have forgotten this. It sucks, man. It really sucks.

If you're looking at relationships in the more classical, traditional way, a man's role is to protect and be worth looking up to. Be a leader. Be a person you can place your faith in. Be a person who can raise a family to be better off than they would have without him. (And then there's the question of submission and the specifics of partnership, which usually has religious undertones and is a separate conversation from this one.)

I really think the best way to fix the relationship problem is to fix men on an individual level. And yes, i do mean "fix." Because we need some god damn work. We need a serious reorganization in priorities.

Condomless sex is not a good priority.

Getting a woman to be submissive to you when you don't deserve submission is not a good priority.

Having a woman cook for you and not offering to do the dishes is a jackass move.

Being in a relationship, when you don't have any sense of sacrifice or responsibility, is not a good priority.

I'm beginning to get long-winded, so I'll stop. But man the state of relationships kills me. The psychological state of men kills me.

I appreciate the opportunity to comment here.

redbirdflies · 2020-02-06T20:31:30+00:00

Off topic: OP I love your posts and I think it was a good idea to open the discussion safely for men to join the thread.

It’s refreshing to see that some lurkers here value some of our ideas and concepts and are interested in implementing positive changes in their behavior as a result of what they’ve learned here.

I’m not averse to the idea of you holding these discussions more often here 😊

forgetfulkiwi7 · 2020-02-06T20:22:37+00:00

I have to admit that I am thankful to FDS, because it allowed me to see the other side of the coin. I have never thought much about what women actually go through.

Of course I was aware of the worst sides (rape, abuse for example), but there are were so many other aspects that I was clueless about. I guess many of those were just things I was socialized to consider "normal" and acceptable, without giving them much thought.

It also helped me realize more about myself: I used be what you would call a LVM (and probably I still am). I have never treated my ex-girlfriend the way she deserved, I was lazy and not enthusiast in general about us.

Thanks to FDS, I realized I am not ready to be in a relationship: I am broke, I have a shitty job and I am too insecure about myself. In short, I can't give an hypothetical girlfriend the commitment she would need.

Even though this means I have to be lonely it doesn't bother me so much anymore because now I know that I am not hurting anyone.

Kat-Believes-in-us · 2020-02-06T22:03:10+00:00

Little BG on me. 27M I work in Special Ed Life Skills at high school level. People think I'm a teacher, but I do way more care taking. feeding toileting, social interaction etc. my students are usually non-verbal.

Tbh, the revelation that someone is horrible is never really shocking. Given how some parents treat their special needs kids, it's possible to understand what leads a person to have harbor darkness in their heart. (regretting a late life special needs birth and following care costs diminishing one's retirement fund. a parent told me those were her feelings.)

Usually, it's the novel details that illicit the greatest reaction from me; watching video of a woman being kidnapped and knowing she's already dead, chilling text conversations, stories of bad SOs, and those insane FB posts detailing women's "biological role".

The wording of phrases, the eyes of a person being taken, the specific details of long posts about the last few days, more often those things shock me.

malzinn87 · 2020-02-06T18:08:24+00:00

Not surprised by anything I read here, I will say in periods of my life where I’ve entered new relationships, I’m blown away by the tales each girl tells me regarding shitty things previous men and partners have done, I think we tend to forget in the absence of a woman who feels comfortable enough to share these stories - sometimes about men we know who we wouldn’t expect it from.

In the past, I’ve been terrible to one girl after a 4 year relationship and did the classic realising I’d fucked up after she’d moved on and travelled the world 🤪 This was a huge lesson for me and I’ve more than learned my lesson since, needless to say I wouldn’t wish what I did to her on my worst enemy.

To my memory, I’ve been creepy to one girl I didn’t know and the memory of it still makes me cringe.

As a male lurker, I enjoy reading this sub and I’m not triggered by much of the content, some posts do remind me of toxic partners in the past who would gaslight/infantilise/emasculate me in the name of me being flawed and them deserving better. One in particular had a special hatred for cheats, while admitting and justifying her own cheating on her ex because he made her miserable, for example. I wonder how many people FDS conscious (on reddit or otherwise) partake in their own toxic behaviour in the name of self-value and striving for better. It’s a tricky one.

DiamondRivenNa · 2020-02-06T23:27:04+00:00

I am man. While some of the stuff on this sub is a bit extreme there is a WHOLE lot of good advice to be taken from this sub. Some advice I have implemented in my own life and hopefully has made me a better person. I am not the most attractive male so my dating life is pretty dead but I hope to be considered a HVM by my future wife one day as I strive to be the best for her.

fuckerwith50bags · 2020-02-06T20:09:45+00:00

Honestly, this sub reminds me of male locker room talk and it's refreshing. Keep it up 👍

DJAdam12 · 2020-02-06T17:51:56+00:00

I'm not. I'm bi. My ex boyfriend was trash. I feel quite a bit of the things said here.

Plus I hear the way they talk to me like were the same. Thanks to shared interest in girls.

Theres a lot of problems I have with men and masculinity in general.

I think of this sub when I hear this song. And my ex and how shitty I felt about myself to enable his behavior.

https://youtu.be/ytHioHhPM5I

AccomplishedCoyote · 2020-02-07T02:46:20+00:00

I'm not shocked. It makes perfect sense within the context of history; mankind has been awful to each other since the begining of history, only within the past few decades, and only in specific regions of the world has a veneer of kindness come over human interaction. It makes perfect sense to me that when the cameras are gone, and when our friends can't see us, most men act exactly within evolutionary parameters. A few decades of topical civility will not undo millennia of behavioral programming.

ThrowawayGreenWitch · 2020-02-06T13:16:24+00:00

Can we please not make threads for males to whine in? They have the rest of reddit to do that.

I like that this is a women-only sub and what males think about FDS is irrelevant.

CulmanO · 2020-02-06T23:14:54+00:00

I never really thought about it until once, during cross country practice, where my female teammates got a comment like: "damn!" Then they started talking about it and it really showed just how much it happened.

andy_el_gato · 2020-02-06T18:08:18+00:00

Despite the hate this sub gets from men, I agree with a lot of the things you girls mention. I did know that men can be pieces of shi but it made me realize how the men around me were doing some of these behaviors. I agree that a lot of men are crap despite how they look or how much money they make. They cheat and are aggressive with their woman which I think is wrong. I think we do need better men for sure but sometimes this thread attacks men as a whole without making exceptions. I wish I could debate some of the points to better understand where you are coming from.

Since you mentioned society: dont let people define what you should do or be. You take their input and decide whats best for you but take responsibility for everything you do. Best of luck!

DeliciousAward8 · 2020-02-06T23:43:31+00:00

Just popping in to say that while I don’t really have a problem with like 95% of what you ladies say , it’s undeniable that a lot of you make fun of short guys for being short. If it wasn’t for that I wouldn’t have a problem with this sub.

glazedhamster · 2020-02-06T17:02:26+00:00

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redbirdflies · 2020-02-06T16:00:52+00:00

I’m not shocked but what is shocking is when I read FDS threads I think 3 things:

I get the impression HVM does not exist to an FDS women or is an unobtainable status (thinking so must imply I’m LVM)

In regards to OLD and what FDS women are saying about men is similar to what the MGTOW men are saying about the women, so there is common ground there.

FDS and certainly Redpillers share the same disdain for porn. I’m in this camp but I don’t identify as red pill.

Thank you for the opportunity to participate in your discussion.

TheOGJammies · 2020-02-06T16:08:34+00:00

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jonnycash11 · 2020-02-06T19:38:12+00:00

No. I’m aware of rape and assault statistics—I have people close to me who are victims. But it’s sexist to lump me in with other guys just because of your experiences.

I hope your criteria for a (male) partner does not includes that he must hate his masculinity or the fact that he was born with a penis.

I disagree with anything that denigrates a group based on race, ethnicity, gender, language, religion, etc. Women and men are equally precious and deserving of respect and love.

Edit: not surprised at all that this is getting downvoted. So much for supporting gender equality. Hypocrites.

trdcameron · 2020-02-06T16:54:56+00:00

Also a recent lurker. For me it's shocking because my social circle is probably a major bubble. 90+ percent of my friends are college educated with good jobs and married for many years. If there's any of this behavior going on it's extremely well hidden. I have a total of one friend who has been divorced.

I have no clue what goes on in dating culture today but I sure as hell want to know since I'm raising two daughters that are about to be tweens. There is a fair amount of overlap between how my wife and I are trying to prepare them for the world and much of the advice given here. I find the posts useful up until the point where they turn to 'all men are garbage' at which point I disregard them. The biggest thing I've learned is to warm them off all the dangers out there but also not become too jaded.

NoThisIs-Patrick · 2020-02-06T19:07:49+00:00

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Altair1234ss · 2020-02-06T21:23:49+00:00

what LVM means im new around here

Pilesofpeopleparts · 2020-02-06T13:56:33+00:00

I'm not shocked. We are all terrible. Most people are better as parts. Trust me, I know a parts guy.

BlasterTheBurro · 2020-02-06T15:13:42+00:00

What do all of your three letter acronyms mean?

leondante · 2020-02-06T17:19:44+00:00

Hello, glad to be heard somewhere in here. I think there are toxic people in both of our genders. I known toxic women and also, of course, toxic men. Sadly they are the vast majority in our population, no matter if men or women. The goal here is to be a good person and to find a good person also. I fight really hard and I has been really alone for years and years, only not to be around toxic people. Is pretty hard. I also noticed that a lot of people thinks the other sex is all of them toxic, only because don't know that in their life never gets to know a group of people that are not that toxic. Is a must not to judge people because their sex, but individually, looking if they really are good people or not. As a note, after years of work, I have a really happy marriage and I am really proud each second that I see my wife blooming like a fresh young flower of happiness. It took a lot of work, both of us had issues that we solved making sacrifices in order to be what the other one needed from each of us.

2020-02-06T18:35:49+00:00

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StarLord13n · 2020-02-06T13:16:28+00:00

We would like to try move past putting people down. Can we move onto actual dating strategies. From just a few mins lurking I can see this subreddit is more about men than about strategies or dating. At the end of the day you do you. Probably won't come back here.

This_Is_Written · 2020-02-06T19:05:38+00:00

Can't say much because I'm at work. Need to provide for my High-Value self one day along with my High-Value tax write-off dependents. I'd prefer you call me a Medium-rare Value Man: 1/3 Handsome, 1/3 Financially Stable, and only 1/2 Porn-sick.

___car___ · 2020-02-06T13:23:45+00:00

I guess the only thing I don’t really agree with here is the idea of “leagues”. whoever will go on a date with you is who is in your league, just like the (monetary) value of something Is what someone is willing to pay for it.

I think everyone should be allowed to want what they want, although expecting to get it is a different story. I do wonder how you would react to a man being incredulous that an ugly woman would desire to be with a man who is more conventionally attractive than her. It doesn’t seem fartfetched for a woman to want that, nor would I have a problem with it, nor should anyone.

Seems like the problem with sending dick picks and pervy stuff is just that, not the choice of which woman a dude decides to send that to.

Zinedshinobi · 2020-02-06T15:51:05+00:00

That’s because the “Chad” status men can act like assholes and get away with it because you women reward them with sex. The less “chads” are seeing the chads act like assholes and get sex, so they think it will work too if they imitate the chads.

That’s all there is to it. You’re welcome. So to answer your question, no I’m not surprised at men acting like this. In fact, I expect it, because you reward it.

Shenaniboozle · 2020-02-06T18:02:26+00:00

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NoThisIs-Patrick · 2020-02-06T15:41:02+00:00

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TheOGJammies · 2020-02-06T19:06:25+00:00

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TheOGJammies · 2020-02-06T13:52:52+00:00

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Stro1e · 2020-02-06T18:03:44+00:00

Is anyone else shocked by how terrible human's are? Women are not an exception.

I got lucky, being raised in a good family, so it's hard for me to empathize with the women in this group. I am curious, how many women on here want an equal, respectful relationship with their man?

Personally, I think dating is about finding a person that you enjoy being around, without needing a specific reason. Once you form a loving bond, you discuss what you both want out of life. If you agree, then you both help each other achieve your goals. Life is too short to worry about HV vs LV people, and that definition is going to be different for each person anyway. I understand how chasing a HVM would provide security for women, but are women actually finding happiness and love this way?

dragonjock27 · 2020-02-06T20:20:50+00:00

Honest question and an honest opinion...not meant to be hostile or anything...but this is in regards to one of your other posts earlier this week addressing male lurkers...

If a female believes she deserves to be treated like a queen, does that mean the same female believes her SO deserves to be treated like a king?

If the answer to that question is "No, my SO doesn't deserve that", then that female might need to look in a mirror and realize she's quite a hypocrite and is holding her SO to an unfair standard...and that SO should run FAR away...

kingdyl07 · 2020-02-06T22:17:29+00:00

They are not all "terrible" because there are lots of assholes in all genders and races. It's like saying germans are bad because Hitler. There are some manipulative men but not all are this way. More importantly it is not right to try and maximize your own self gain through a relationship male or female

Fabreeze63 · 2020-02-06T13:07:51+00:00

Your problem is sample bias, you mostly date up so ofc you are going to encounter more assholes as more attractive/wealthy/interesting men can afford to do so.

Also, we don't judge people as a group, that's ridiculous.

We aren't all responsible for what bad men do, just like all women aren't responsible for what bad women do.

Most of this crap posted here is just AVERAGE interactions women have with men.

Nope, people don't report average, they report BAD experiences.

2020-02-06T20:14:14+00:00

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NoThisIs-Patrick · 2020-02-06T20:32:21+00:00

[removed]

Title	OPEN Q&A THREAD FOR MEN: Why are you shocked at how terrible males are? 😦
Author	TheOGJammies
Upvotes	245
Comments	318
Date	February 6, 2020 12:50 PM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/FemaleDatingStrategy
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/FemaleDatingStrategy/comments/ezrwf5/open_qa_thread_for_men_why_are_you_shocked_at_how/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/FemaleDatingStrategy/open-qa-thread-for-men-why-are-you-shocked-at-how.751067 https://theredarchive.com/post/751067

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