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[–]fhoward200 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I'm glad a graphic like this is being made, but I have a few comments:
1) What specifically would you say is wrong with the FBI studies that the huffpost article with that original infographic cited? I assume it has to do with the fact that the % of unreported rapes was self reported or something?
2) The 3rd fact could use a %. What is the rate at which women falsely report other crimes vs rate.
3) Are there any statistics gathered on the rape of men? I'd love to see a graphic that doesn't indicate only men are rapists.
4) I think the message of this image is a little extremist, probably could be more well received if it didn't have stuff about drinking the feminist kool-aid and was more focused on the terrors of false accusation. I'm sure many people on this subreddit would love to vilify feminists, but that's a pretty unpopular view and might cause the larger message to be lost.
[–]TheSacredParsnip91 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Just a few problems I have with the original graphic, using their numbers.
5-25% of rapes are reported - they go with the low side of 10% to boost their figure
2-8% reported are false accusations - they go with the lowest possible estimate of 2% to inflate their numbers again.
Anyone that understands statistics at all understands how despicable this chart really is (the original).
[–]SteelCrossx50 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
On their site they admit that as much as 50% of rapes may be reported. They go really, really low to inflate their figures.
[–]TheSacredParsnip36 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
The fact that people just read these charts and see them as fact is sickening as well. I wish people would read this stuff and actually read the sources. This is becoming a huge issue in 2X. Rarely does anyone do any critical reading. They see he headline and repost it.
[–]Dear_Occupant15 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I tend to cut regular people a bit of slack about that sort of thing. An infographic is supposed to be a quick and easy way for the reader to digest information. I'd place the blame squarely on the shoulders of the content creator who is either willfully deceiving their readers or simply engaging in sloppy work.
[–]PersonEveryman7 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
An infographic is supposed to be a quick and easy way for the reader to digest information.
Therein lies the problem. For complex societal issues, there is no quick and easy way to educate oneself. The desire for a TL;DR on every topic is what leads to misinformation, whether done by those with an agenda or otherwise.
[–]Mylon6 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Unfortunately this isn't enough. It's far too easy for one person to maliciously mislead with an infograph, take the fall, but a wide audience spread it around and around. Even if the creator is punished for it, the damage done is far too great. People need to be shamed for their parroting of misinformation.
For a good parallel of the spread of misinformation see Creationism/Intelligent Design. One person will publish a study with false credentials, it gets cited by a bunch of creationists and they just keep spreading it around. The end result? A frightening chunk of America think Evolution is false. We need to shame the people that spread this crap, not just the creators.
[–]drinkthebleach2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Not just a repost, people resort to violence over this shit they didn't even bother to read over.
[–]RedditBlueit13 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
The most despicable part is that every icon except those for "convicted" and "false accusations" should be labeled "alleged rapist". In addition about 8% of those icons should be labeled "unfounded rape allegations".
[–]SenorSpicyBeans9 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
5-25% of rapes are reported
Is it just me, or is a 20% margin of error absolutely fucking huge? Like, in the 'nowhere near scientifically useful' range?
2-8% reported are false accusations
Hell, even a 6% margin of error, for that matter.
[–]Mylon7 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
That's not how margins work. 5-25% is the lower and upper bounds. So we're probably looking at 15% +-10%. That's an error margin of 67%!
Same for the other stat, probably 5% +-3%., or 60% error margin. This puts a much better perspective on the spread involved.
[–]arstin-1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
You still have the obvious incongruity of false accusations having a 60% error margin but true accusations having a 3% error margin. DUN DUN DUN!!!!!
[–]HoopyFreud4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
The problem with this margin of error is the same as the problem with the margin of error in false reporting cases. The truth doesn't come out, so it's very hard to determine what the truth is.
Remember: everybody lies.
[–][deleted]1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Not everybody's lies get federal pork bloating backing!!!
[–]unitedamerika3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
They might be citing multiple studies from different areas. Generally, I assume the question in a poll was.
Probably in a more targeted way. That specific poll with create a very specific number. Such as, 16.48963490463pi % but a single poll doesn't mean much. So they gather more money and do another, and another, and another. Each with different sample sizes, ect.
As a educated person you sure to know that a smaller sample size while could give you the "true" ratios tends to have a lower chance of that being the case.
tl;dr:
It is useful, it multiple studies and as time and more data is gather we able to identify and deal with out layers of information and explain it. So, science is always useful.
[–]shadowbanned65 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
in reality, about 8% are obviously and proven to be false.
about 40-60% are estimated to be false, but for lack of prove the male is prosecuted anyway.
One in two rape accusations are false! Strauss-Kahn, presumed guilty, jailed, slandered without due process, escaped. Others are not so lucky
[–]trytokeepanopenmind2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
What about when a charge of false accusation turns out to be false?
Here
And here
In both cases, both of the rapists went to jail but only after who knows how much damage to the victims...and ask yourself, how many other victims have been wrongly charged for false accusation and how many rapists went free?
[–]shadowbanned62 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
this IS exceedingly rare. I believe these women recanted and confessed, falsely
Normally women accused of false rape accusations fully enjoy their constitutional rights of "innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt". They enjoy due process
With due process, there still are false decisions. That is lamentable
But those accused of rape get convicted without due process rights. This is what encourages false accusers to come forward. and this what makes false convictions so more frequent.
[–]HoopyFreud1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
From your source's source:
Among the cases analyzed, it was extremely rare that women with a normal, "orderly" life (without psychological or social abnormalities) would plan false accusations – to take revenge on a man, to gain financial or other benefits.
From your source:
We believe that these conclusions are mistaken, due to sampling bias. (This is just a hunch, we have not analyzed data to prove this).
Taken from here
One in two seems like a ridiculous figure. Of course false reporting is a problem, but the most common figure hovers around 8%, which roughly matches the anecdotal and statistical evidence that I've seen.
[–]shadowbanned63 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
The sampling bias comment refers to this statement
Among the cases analyzed, it was extremely rare that women with a normal, "orderly" life (without psychological or social abnormalities) would plan false accusations – to take revenge on a man, to gain financial or other benefits. (p. 265)
There is no sampling bias in the study, as it is all rape accusations over an entire year in an entire state
2) you can not know if 50% is ridiculous. You don't see a broad sample of accusers. You don't know how many whackos are out there taking advantage of the law, to take revenge
But the Bavarian police see a broad sample of accusers, and they think it is over 50%
[–]DashFerLev3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
They also shunt the two black figures aaaaaaall the way away from the "reported" rectangle.
It's dishonest is what it is...
[–]geodebug0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Most people understand percentages and ratios but don't understand much about statistics. Just a reminder to all to keep it simple.
[–]pntbttrkelly26 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Here's a Slate.com article that points out some problems they have with it and links to a couple different sources. It still has a feminist perspective but doesn't accept the graph as is, which I appreciated.
[–]robe_and_slippies0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
It's particularly interesting to consider that the number of false accusations may in fact be overestimated in the graph, due to conflation of false accusations with false claims (when no specific perpetrator is accused). Hard to know for sure but important to consider.
[–]oneiorosgrip20 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Are there any statistics gathered on the rape of men? I'd love to see a graphic that doesn't indicate only men are rapists.
There's some writing on the topic, and some limited statistics on specific populations.
Society's betrayal of boys
The Invisible Boy report
Sexual Victimization in Juvenile Facilities Reported by Youth, 2008-09 Approximately 95% of all youth reporting staff sexual misconduct said they had been victimized by female staff. In 2008, 42% of staff in state juvenile facilities were female.
Men often coerced into sex: male libido myth puts pressure on both sexes
There's discussion on why research is so badly skewed (which also explains why male victim stats aren't easily found) and the feminist response to equal treatment regarding rape
Straus Exposes the Academic Veils Placed on Domestic Violence Research, and Bias Against Men and Boys in Mental Health Research.
Male Bashing in Mental Health Research explains a strongly contributing factor to the prevalence of social perception of men and boys as violent and predatory
How the CDC is Overstating Sexual Violence in the U.S. (Washington Post article.)
Feminist groups have actively opposed treating female rapists as equal to male rapists under the law.
There is also writing and other discussion on the topic of female perpetrators:
female abusers have frequently gone unreported, but can have a profoundly damaging effect.
86% of survivors of sexual abuse were not believed when they said the abuser was a woman. (Warning - some NSFW discussion on this page.)
Female perpetrators and male victims - why they are so invisible
An Interview with "She Stole My Voice" Filmmakers Justine Chang and Armand Kaye (Link NSFW, Interview text relevant, but includes trailer for documentary which is graphic and violent.)
[–][deleted]13 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
1) Everything is wrong with the sources. The first source "National Crime Victimization Survey: 2006-2010" link leads to the front page of the survey. I spent about 20 minutes trying to find the data they used but could not. They do not have any FBI sources that I can find, unless their FBI source is the NCVS. Words from her own mouth:
"Some reports suggest that only 5-25% of rapes are reported to authorities. Other suggest that 50% are reported. We assumed 10%....."
Her assumption is unwarranted and clearly biased towards her final goal. By undercutting all of her stats, the final compilation of stats paints a very false picture.
She also cites a presentation training manual created by, you guess it, the feminist organization The National Center for the Prosecution of Violence Against Women that only 2% of rape claims made by women are false. Also, the manual states 2-8%, she undercut with 2%, then used bogus math to get that down to 0.2%!
2) No, sorry.
3) There are, but I'll let you find them!
4) It's a tad bit extremist, but extremism works. And I subscribe to the manta Play To Win (http://www.sirlin.net/ptw/), which means if my opponent is doing something I deem cheap or dishonourable, but I see that it is a very effective strategy, I copy it and use it against them! I used Kool-Aid because that slang fit best in my opinino. You would have to be involved in a cult to think 90% of rape claims by women go unreported. Again, feminism is all about min/maxing stats. They undercut and over-exaggerate a bunch of statistics and then use the naturally occurring errors to create a final grim outlook on female life.
There are 2 men on there for Falsely Accused. In reality all data shows a number more likely closer to 500 men. What happens when you minimize a bunch of stats and then multiply them all together is you're left with a very tiny number that in no way represents reality. And the creators of these false stats think they're being truthful because they're not changing 500 to 2, they're just removing a tiny bit off of each number as they go along their merry way. They feel truthful even though they're telling the biggest lies.
[–]drockers27 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
And your sources are from decades ago.
[–]Mylon-2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
People that get hit with false accusations can be jailed for decades. So the data is fair.
[–]binarypillbug3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
...what? i...what?
[–]Mylon0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
A false conviction on rape charges can land a man in prison for a very long time. Therefore, old data can still be relevant because it can still be affecting people in prison now.
Though they're still probably too far apart to be relevant.
[–][deleted]-4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
What is your point?
[–]drockers14 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Studies from 30+ years ago have no bearing in a sociology subject.
[–]rememberese7 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I'm not sure why you got so downvoted, as I had the same problems with the studies. Especially with the cases in the military-- there are huge problems with sexual assault for both genders and a study from 1985 before a vast majority of changes were made in the infrastructure are now outdated and less useful.
[–]drockers0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Because it's /r/mensrights. This sub-reddit has become just as bad as /r/srs.
By not agreeing with this guy's sources I've morphed from a brother in arms to a liberal girl with 60 abortions under my belt who beats my scrawny boyfriend each night. "The enemy".
Which is funny, because even if I was a female, or a feminist(which I'm not). Down voting people in an argument is hilariously self-righteous.
[–]dungone10 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I think you're missing the big picture of what's going on here.
These studies, when they came out, should have prompted sociologists to carry out far more in-depth studies going forward.
But instead, from the very beginning, the findings had been decried for completely spurious reasons. Hearing them decried now is nothing new. I think that the "meta" discussion here is that newer studies don't even come close to trying to address the prevalence of false rape accusations and can in fact be shown to actively suppress evidence that might be contrary to feminist politics. Just try to see how far you'll get pointing out the design flaws of a self-reported opt-in survey of college students that asked them a bunch of loaded questions whose answers were then re-interpreted by the researchers to conform to ideological definitions of rape and sexual assault.
We're dealing with people who don't even report the data they have honestly, where if a woman says she was penetrated against her will it's rape, but if a man was forced to penetrate against his will, it's just some lesser form of unwanted sex that doesn't count as rape.
The current environment is one where if men try to create a men's center on a college campus or go to a speech to hear about men's issues, they are subject to vehement protests. When all the available data shows X, and a well-respected liberal economist such as Lawrence Summers says X, he's labeled a heretic and run out on a rail.
So the point of bringing up Kanin is to force these attitudes to change. Eventually, someone will get tired of hearing "Kanin, Kanin, Kanin" all the time and try to replicate the study, perhaps even expand on it and find ways to improve the methodology. Until then, it's what we have.
[–]xzxzzx2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
This sub-reddit has become just as bad as /r/srs.
Haha. That you can even make that comment without getting banned entirely from the subreddit proves otherwise.
[–]Pharmakoza2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Quit being dramatic. This place is not anywhere near as bad as srs.
[–][deleted]-3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
The age of these studies has nothing to do with accuracy. This is not a study on crop rotation techniques. False rape accusations do not have an expiry date. If someone lies in 1980, did they still lie in 1980 is it is now 2013?
"I'm 100 feet tall" is a lie I just made now in 2013. In 2043 will it be true?
[–]drockers-5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Okay... how to break this down to a middle school level...
Which is more likely to be raped a 50 year old or a 20 year old?
Does a 20 year old not grow as a person, in 30 years?
Does society stay stagnant and unchanging in 30 years?
You would not read a book from the medieval ages on the social status of farmers any more than you would read a book about blacks during the apartheid. Or use age demographic from the 1940s to project viewership for a show in 2010.
So whose to say what societal changes have occurred in 30 years that would make sources from that time irrelevant. Especially since many of the people from the ideal "rapist" age group weren't even born.
So what can we learn from a 30 year old study? Lots of things! They can still be good and accurate statistics for that time frame
[–][deleted]2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Again, for the type of statistic I am using age is irrelevant unless at an extreme. If the study was 100 years or older, you have a point. But it is not, so you do not. And the data matches related studies that are much newer (2005+). http://www.cotwa.info/p/information-about-wrongful-rape-claims.html
[–]Godspiral2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Then and now, 20 years olds are more likely to be raped and to make rape complaints.
The key issue is has the cultural mentality of 20 year olds changed in the last 30 years. I don't think there has been any social awakening that treats rape claims more suspiciously.
I posted this elsewhere, but here is a quote from Kanin's report:
No evidence exists to suggest that something unique or defective is in the female condition that prompts such behavior. Rather, something bio- logical, legal, and cultural would seem to make false rape allegations inevitable. If rape were a commonplace victimization experience of men, if men could experience the anxiety of possible pregnancy from illicit af- fairs, if men had a cultural base that would support their confidence in using rape accusations punitively, and if men could feel secure that vic- timization could elicit attention and syrnpathy, then men also would be making false rape accusations.
You need at least a supportable hypothesis for how the world has changed to no longer make the above true, and not just rely that it might have.
Certainly if the study is repeated with different results, we should treat those results as more reflective of our time, but until further more current information, there is no reason whatsoever to think they don't apply any more.
[–]dungone-5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Yes they do, because science works that way. You are resorting to special pleading.
[–]drockers8 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
You can't use dated sources to describe present day phenomenon in sociology.
Psychology? Yes. Anthropology? Yes. Can you use aged studies to describe the past and theorize about trends in present day society? Yes.
Can you use 30 year old sources to describe modern day society? No.
Edit: And you used "Special Pleading" wrong. If I had refuted your sources based on their age and introduced my own 30 year old sources as accepted citation then I would be issuing a double standard. However I am simply commenting on the invalid use of dated sources.
Not much has changed in westernized society in the past 30 years in regards to having an effect on the frequency in which people lie about crime. I would even make the argument it is even easier to lie about being raped now than it was in the 1980's, considering all of the new laws that have been implemented that protect/encourage women to falsely accuse a man of rape.
[–]drockers-3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
wow more anecdotes how cute.
[–]Godspiral1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Its not anecdotes.
all of the new laws that have been implemented that protect/encourage women to falsely accuse a man of rape.
It would be a major effort to list all of the funding initiatives and legal changes that have occurred over the last 30 years, but too many resources have been thrown at increasing conviction rates, women's shelters and hate groups such as RAINN which manufacture rape claims, and post blatant false hate speech such as the original graphic in order to obtain funding and manufacture misandry and rape accusations, as well as court procedures that protect the complainant and her potential lies.
That social and political concentration to help rape complainants necessarily harms the accused, and necessarily facilitates lies, and facilitates their cover up.
Your attack based on the age of the study is completely baseless, other than the obvious point that we can't know for sure how things have changed. Its still baseless because there is no reason to think it has changed for the better.
[–]dungone-3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
False rape accusations are not just a present day phenomenon. At the very best, you are suggesting that there has been a dramatic shift in our culture in the last ~30 years or so where the number of women who lie about stuff suddenly plummeted. Evidence? I didn't think so...
I have used special pleading correctly. You are listening to poor sources that use incredibly poor methodology - objectively far worse than Kanin - and either ignoring or denying the sources that disagree with your foregone conclusions.
[–]Froolow1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
You have not used special pleading correctly. If a disputant demands you exclude certain details by alleging a need to apply special considerations to the data without due consideration as to why these conditions should be introduced, then that is special pleading. Drockers has asked that you use only contemporary sources in an argument about contemporary sociology.
This is not an unreasonable request - as a sociologist myself (well, an economist specialising in sociological issues) I can tell you that in academia a source is pretty much 'out of date' if it is more than a decade old, and hopelessly out of date if it is thirty years old. So Drockers has considered this additional request - that you exclude work that is very out of date - and if you chose to ignore this request it cannot be on the grounds of special pleading (perhaps you have reason to believe this particular paper is still relevant today)
If you prefer, consider this: Smith says "The sky is green", to which Jones replies, "That fact is not true, so it has no bearing on your argument". Smith retorts, "Aha, you are now resorting to special pleading by demanding I use true facts in my argument". Calling Jones' demand fallacious is facile.
[–]dungone0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
First of all, I've got a degree in economics and I've never heard of this rule of thumb that lets you conveniently get around issues of special pleading. You can't dismiss older data unless you have newer data that is methodologically sound. The newer data being presented is absolutely flawed to the point of being useless, which means that you can't throw out the older data which is far more robust on the basis of it's age alone. Now, if you had two identical studies that showed that a trend in an older set of data no longer holds true, then I will grant you your exception when talkign about now. It still doesn't discount the old data for talking about back then. But you do not have that situation. The premise here is a request that we should discard old data because the old researchers must have been inept cavemen, when in fact the newer researchers are closer to inept cavemen. It's got nothing to do with following social trends in this case, just with special pleading. It is a ridiculous request on the whole because I have no reason to believe that the whole population of women suddenly stopped lying within the last 30 years or so. If anything, we probably might be able to make the case that the degree of sociopathy in our society is increasing and that people are just as if not more predisposed to lying for personal gain than they were before.
Yeah, economists tend to stick with the idea that what was true in the 1950's is true now - it's the bane of my working life. But I meant to say by my claim to be an economist working in sociological areas is that sociologists tend to look very skeptically at data which are a decade old or more. It's not special pleading to bring this up, and it is not (usually) methodologically sound to rely on old data in social sciences.
if the new data being introduced are unsound then this is a different and wholly separate problem.
So just to reiterate; you may be right to introduce the data you have, but it is not - as far as I can see - special pleading to ask you to justify the inclusion of such data.
Also, just to double check you know this before you spend ages writing a long rebuttal, I'm not the guy you were originally arguing with, I just wanted to clear up a misunderstanding about the use of the 'special pleading' argument
[–]dungone4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
In my experience, sociologists say that not because they're following trends in our society, but because they're following trends in sociology.
[–]Froolow2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Potentially. I can certainly see the logic that human society changes so quickly that even a decade means work will be out of date (for example, mobile phones and the internet were only just becoming ubiquitous a decade ago and it was just after 9/11). Nevertheless, as both of us are economists I'm sure we've both spotted that this proclamation means that sociologists guarantee themselves work for the foreseeable future!
Anyway, I just wanted to diffuse a potentially derailing discussion about special pleading before it interrupted the interesting discussion you were having about the data in the two studies.
[–]dungone-6 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Older actually means better because there's been more time for people to attempt to reproduce the results. Numerous people have attempted to discredit the studies over the years and in my opinion they haven't been able to do so without resorting to dishonesty.
You want to know how I know you never took a science credit in University? Because you just wrote that.
[–]dungone-2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
You think that using an ad-hominem remark reflects positively on the idea that you had? If so, then perhaps your science credit should be revoked. FTR I have two college degrees, in both a STEM science and a social science.
[–]Zaragor2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
That was rather rude, so let me explain.
In a STEM science, you'd be absolutely right. Physics is constant, and a universal law can be assumed to be unchanging. Therefore, more time to disprove makes it more robust.
The same cannot be said for rape statistics however. There is no way to know if the unreported rape rate was the same 20 years ago - in fact I would assume it's higher, with recent feminist education programmes. So in this, assuming sample size and data collection and so forth are the same, recent studies are in fact more reliable.
[–]Ted83672 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I would assume it's higher
...
recent studies are in fact more reliable
Heh
[–]MexicanGolf12 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Since the two men you posted there weren't in fact confronted by the system, but rather by vigilantes, wouldn't you agree that it's completely useless?
People have killed people for many reasons, a girl screaming she was raped is just one of those reasons. Stick to your points, don't try to battle the human condition.
[–]Godspiral16 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
The social problem is presumed belief of rape claims. That affects both authorities and individuals. Its also the fundamental reason for rape lies. If they are believed, without question (because the questions would be too delicate), then they are powerful manipulation tools. Keep in mind that our species was capable of reacting to witchcraft accusations the same way, and the only cure was enlightenement.
[–]MexicanGolf-5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
This is not not quite the same as a witchcraft accusation, for far more reasons than one, so I'm not going to comment until I know why it was compared.
The issue isn't that they lied, or that they were believed, the issue with these two cases is that some jackasses saw fit to act on it. I don't mean to remove responsibility from the liars, however, but it would never be an issue if people didn't go berserk because of it.
I feel that those two cases you linked undermines any serious effort of your post. Because the message isn't bad, it's no lie that interest groups mess with the statistics to make a situation seem worse than it actually is and when someone points out the flaws backed up with sources, that's a good thing.
But those two cases? Entirely unrelated problems that have nothing to do with rape statistics.
[–]Alkanfel10 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
He wasn't comparing rape accusations to witchcraft accusations, he was comparing our responses to them on the basis that they tended to be believed entirely on hearsay.
[–]MexicanGolf-4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Fair enough, but even so I don't see it relates to the topic at hand.
[–]Alkanfel7 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Care to explain how?
Seems pretty simple to me. People tended to believe accusations of witchcraft despite the fact that there was no evidence for it aside from the accuser's observations/remarks. If the same weren't at least occasionally true for rape accusations, I have a hard time believing that a posse would have taken it upon itself to beat up an alleged rapist. It's quite relevant, actually.
[–]MexicanGolf-7 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Looking at it like that, yes, it's the same. Difference is that right now we got a system to turn to. It's imperfect and does wrong, but it's the best we've got. The people that assault a supposed rapist based on hearsay alone are the problem, far more so than the liar (although he or she is not absolved of responsibility either).
My main gripe is that it doesn't relate to what he was trying to accomplish with his post. His post was to point out the flaws in a statistic released, not to start a debate about the nature of other, non-rape, violent crime, because they are two separate topics.
I will admit and say there are some similarities between this and our treatment of accused witches, but only because the mentality is somewhat similar, and it's not something that's likely to go away.
[–]Alkanfel8 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Difference is that right now we got a system to turn to. It's imperfect and does wrong, but it's the best we've got. The people that assault a supposed rapist based on hearsay alone are the problem, far more so than the liar....
I think part of the point that OP was trying to make is that these beatings happen in part because people buy in to the bullshit statistics often invoked by feminists and their ilk. Because they believe the frequency of false accusations is so low--and also that many/most rapists get away with it--they feel compelled to act.
That's right. If you buy into rape culture and 1 in4 women have been raped then 40M American men deserve to be in jail, or receive vigilante stabbings. Its easy to think that the few thousand rape cases each year must therefore all be true.
[–]MexicanGolf-2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Then stick to disproving those statistics rather than introducing elements of a different nature.
And you may not like it, but they're free to release bullshit statistics. They're far from the only ones doing it, and they're in no way responsible for a violent man being violent.
[–]Alkanfel5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I don't want to sound like too much of a dick, but this is insanely preposterous. Mob justice is not an "[element] of a different nature," it's a direct consequence of the misinformation being spread, and the tendency for people to believe the hearsay. It is absolutely fair to include it in this discussion; I'd even call it necessary.
Well then, as you put it; I don't want to sound like too much of a dick, but enjoy never getting anything done. Think about what you can fix, and then about what you can't.
"The System" is an actual thing. It got rules, regulations and a process. It can be critiqued, and improved as a result. Change won't come easy, but it's achievable.
Mob justice won't go away as long as there's something to rile one up, and it's not isolated to rape. A mob can be created through fear, the promise of great success, justice or whatever. The idea of it is primal, and it alters the peoples perspective on justice and "what is right" by creating a larger body to which nobody feels entirely responsible.
My point is that it distracts from the actual discussion at hand and broadens the discussion to a point where it's no longer about rape, but rather the human condition.
But you're free to discuss this in whatever way you chose, I won't stop you.
[–][deleted]5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
American gender-feminists "Empower" themselves by Inflaming the public with faulty and inflammatory manufactured rape statistics. 16 year old Boys beaten to death in their sleep with baseball bats because of these "Inflammations" is a side effect.
The protocol perversions, semantics games, and re-defining what the meaning of is, is, that American law enforcement are now engaged in to "manufacture statistics", is not only a stain on American law enforcement, but is quite likely unconstitutional.
[–]MexicanGolf-3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Not to be an offensive cunt or anything, but holy shit that's dumb.
Are you seriously trying to blame feminists for creating violent behavior? Or are you blaming them for influencing the mentality in such a way that average "good kids" feel forced to bash someones skull in with a baseball bat? Either one is dumb.
Violent people will be violent. Liars will be liars. These are not new things, and while they're bad as all hell they're not the fault of feminist movements. These things were here long before we even started scoffing at the idea of gender equality, and they will be here long after we settle it.
Gender-Feminists "Inflame" the public with faulty and inflammatory rhetoric, how could they not be held somewhat accountable for the consequences??
[–]MexicanGolf0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Pretty sure that argument can be used with violent media as well.
[–]Catechin1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uwAo8lcAC4
It's generally not violent media that influences people. A more successful argument is that the news agencies or society itself influence far more violence than a movie or video game could ever hope to achieve.
Violent media isn't going around spouting lies. It's providing harmless entertainment. I don't even know how you made that leap, quite frankly.
[–]MexicanGolf1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Well you didn't really make it a hard leap to make. I may be the minority, but I tend to hold the people responsible responsible. "Excuses" such as "my girlfriend/Videogame/favorite movie/Feminist movement made me do it" aren't constructive. While I do agree and would say there's a lot of improvement to be made, they are not the ones responsible if someone goes out and commits a crime.
It's because there's a difference between a work of fantasy showing someone getting stabbed or blown up or, hell, getting raped. There's a disconnect because people are aware that they are nothing but fantasy.
Compare that to radfems and the like who use lies and inflammatory speech to rally people to their cause. It's completely different and not held under that guise of fantasy.
Violent people will be violent. Liars will be liars.
We're educated to be suspicious of lending people money on their word. We're not educated to be weary of rape claims. Feminist propaganda, in fact, demands that we believe all of them, and that every rape destroys every women in the outer-most limits you can imagine it harming them.
Yes, some people are more gullible and violent than others. But that gullibility and over-sympathy is enhanced by the feminist propaganda machine, and the consequences are innevitable. Hate crimes against muslims occur because of politician's war propaganda.
[–]AtheistConservative3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Hmm. A modern system where the accused has the burden of proof, and no one questions the accuser on their evidence. An old system where the accused had the burden of proof, and no questioned the accuser on their evidence. Immense penalties both legally and socially even if the accused proves their innocence. I wonder what they could have in common.
but it would never be an issue if people didn't go berserk because of it.
Yes, it's totally within human nature to be calm and non-judgemental when someone you care about tells you that someone hurt them severely.
[–]MexicanGolf-1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Since you didn't actually bring anything to the table I assume you just wanted to tell me that I'm wrong on all points, or something to that effect?
[–]AtheistConservative2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
In the first part I was rudely explaining the rather obvious compariosn that Godspiral was making.
In the second, I was pointing out that what the vigilantes did was a very natural thing. Of course people will try to seek revenge for their loved ones.
This all ties together about the idea of false accusation.
It's not an obvious comparison. We as humans hasn't changed, so naturally the mentality is going to be quite similar, but that's pretty much where the comparison ends.
Your second point isn't in regards to rape, or even liars, but in regards to peoples reactions and how much faith they put in a person. You can lie about more things than one, I've seen it happen too, and it's very easy to do so. Easier for some than others, yeah, but I thought the point was rather strictly to the botched statistic rather than pretty much all crime ever.
And a person's reaction is exceedingly important to take into account. I would generally be considered an incredibly calm individual and I've talked people acting aggressively towards me down more than once. But if one of my friends came to me and said someone raped them? I'd be ready to murder whoever did it. Should I act on it? Probably not. Would I? It's a possibility, unfortunate as that may be.
The burden doesn't lie solely with me or the person telling me about the situation. It's shared. But the very fact that said burden is shared means they better not be lying to me.
[–]RedditBlueit2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Faces of victims are powerful, because they belie the "no conviction, no harm" claims.
Some percentage of "falsely accused" belong in the "convicted" and "brought to trial" categories - those victims are certainly impacted by false accusations. But so are those who are never even visit by the police. Rape is so abhorrent that alleged rapists face official censure, social ostracization, loss of employment, violence, and even death.
We cannot allow people to think that false accusations are a victimless crime.
I agree with you. But making the accusation in a non-official sense, such as lying to serve ones motives, is a different thing altogether.
We can make it a better process for rape victims, and the falsely accused, all at the same time. I'm not the man to make it work, or even think of the specifics, as it is something "the system" will have to do. Our mentality of taking the word of a friend over that of someone we may already dislike is not going anywhere, and violent people will be violent until either evolution or medicine addresses it.
My point was the the two faces distracts from the rest of the picture, because they are two separate issues.
[–]SatanIsAnAtheist11 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
if my opponent is doing something I deem cheap or dishonourable, but I see that it is a very effective strategy, I copy it and use it against them!
Two wrongs don't make a right. If you have disdain for the people you're debating for their use of questionable or dishonorable methods, you should not sink to their level and be just as bad as they are. The result of doing so will just alienate the people in the center on the debate while riling up both extremes.
In this case, using that language in your image virtually ensures that only people who are solidly in agreement with you already will see or place any stock in this image, while the people who are undecided or who don't already have a dog in the fight will be far more likely to dismiss it as sour grapes or propaganda.
After all, the goal should not be to either preach to the choir or to simply put it in the face of those who almost surely won't see your side of the debate no matter how right you are, but it should be to educate and appeal to all the people in the middle who are uninformed and who don't have a strong opinion either way yet. Using language like you do in that last paragraph severely undermines this goal. "Playing to win" should not mean your goal is to rile up feminists or MRAs as that is very easily done and truth and facts are not needed to do so. To appeal to the undecideds you need to be less caustic with your stance.
[–]radamanthine9 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
The ncvs lists "threats of rape" as actual rapes. Everyone on Xbox live has been raped.
[–]Johnthereader1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Think being teabagged counts? If so, it happened to me about forty times yesterday. That guy was way too good with a DMR.
[–]radamanthine1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Rape survey? Surely it does. Hell, being in-game when someone else does that probably counts you as a rapist.
What about when everybody in a base does it when I fail to get them with a grenade?
It's literally India, at that point.
[–]BullsLawDan6 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
How did you arrive at the 1 in 1877 figure, versus 1 in 4? I'd love to have this.
[–]elwood784 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I was told that the 8% was the unfounded #, and not the same as false reports. Is this accurate?
'the fbi statistic is not for false reports, it is for 'unfounded' reports, which is 100% not the same thing. for a crime which rarely leaves physical evidence, many cases that are deemed 'unfounded' could still be actual valid accusations.'
[–]Godspiral3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
The FBI numbers are worthless because they have no methodology associated with then, and are heavily influenced by politics and the number individual police forces want to report.
In order to find out liars, you have to make a significant investigation effort, and you probably have to want to discover liars. If one police department takes a complaint, and then arrests someone if that complaint sounds like a crime, it will never find any liars or false reports.
What we can tell from the FBI statistics is that there is a significant police training problem in the US because they fail to find a 30%-50% false rate of rape complaints. Accusations cause significant hardship on the accused and tie up courts, and it gives time for the liar to become more invested in their lie, and harder to discover because the full arsenal of questions and investigations available to the police are not available to the defense.
A certain percentage of rape complaints are classified as "unfounded" by the police and excluded from the FBI's statistics. For example, in 1995, 8% of all forcible rape cases were closed as unfounded, as were 15% in 1996 (Greenfeld, 1997). According to the FBI, a report should only be considered unfounded when investigation revealed that the elements of the crime were not met or the report was "false" (which is not defined) (FBI, 2007).
This statistic is almost meaningless, as many of the jurisdictions from which the FBI collects data on crime use different definitions of, or criteria for, "unfounded."
False Rape Allegations: An Assault on Justice
[–]elwood783 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
This makes it even more confusing..
[–]RedditBlueit3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
The sense I get is that not all "unfounded" allegations are "false" (i.e. intentionally false or fraudulent) allegations. Some are; the rest range from "we're not sure anything occurred" to "someone did something to the victim, but it wasn't sexual assault".
What many people overlook is that not all false allegations fall into the "unfounded" category. Brian Banks puts a sympathetic face on those victims of FRA convicted of the charges.
Another pet peeve is that Rape Victim advocates will look at every reported rape that does not lead to a conviction as a rapist who got away with it. What happened to innocent until proven guilty?
[–]Mylon2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Re #4: Cheating and being dishonorable is not okay! If the other side cheats, refuse to debate them. Call them out on their dishonesty and attack their sources. Engaging in similar behavior is only going to give them more ammunition and further polarize the issue on emotional grounds rather than bring us together to eventually reach a rational common ground.
Thus far it seems like internet memes are a decent platform for demonstrating the ridiculousness of an extremist position. Beyond that, "corrected" infographics that attack cited sources of the original infographic (similar to the original picture of this thread) can help defang their attacks.
[–]HoopyFreud2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I subscribe to the manta Play To Win
[–]ellecon8 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I assume it has to do with the fact that the % of unreported rapes was self reported or something
"Hello, I'd like to self report an unreported rape please."
[–]shady8x6 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I don't know how much you have read on the issue thus far, but you should be made aware of how things currently stand on this issue:
Rape of male adults:
NISVS Report2010: http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePrevention/pdf/NISVS_Report2010-a.pdf PDF
Relevant graphic from the report:
http://i.minus.com/ibdWhAGbVpHg9Z.png
Males forced to penetrate(penetration without the consent of the male victim, which is known as rape) that year number in almost exactly the same amount as the number of females penetrated that year(penetration without the consent of the female victim, also known as rape).
The number of males penetrated is not listed. Since every year, males are raped(penetrated) hundreds of thousands of times by other males in prison alone(look for the prison section of my comment, below), it is obvious that more men were raped that year than women. Not sure if that is the reason they chose not to list any number for men penetrated or if they just didn't bother to check but whatever.
Their anti-male bias, the reason males forced to penetrate(male rape victims) aren't listed in the rape section of the graphic and the reason I think that they pulled the lifetime estimation out of their ass, can be found here:
Being made to penetrate is a form of sexual victim-ization distinct from rape that is particularly unique to males and, to our knowledge, has not been explic-itly measured in previous national studies. - page 84 of the report.
So in other words: "rape is only rape when perpetrated by a man against a woman and no one other than us has ever bothered to check if women force men to penetrate them. So our lifetime estimations are completely made up since ours is the only data point in existence."
They later released a 'fact sheet' that mentioned only the bogus lifetime estimations. I say bogus because they have no data to prove that every single year in the history of the world except the one they looked at, has wildly different numbers compared to the only one they actually looked at.
Study of 7,667 university students from 38 sites: 3.0% of men reported forced sex (of which 2.1% was forced vaginal sex... this is in fact men reporting victimization by women) and 22% of men reported verbal sexual coercion. 2.3% of women reported forced sex(of which 1.6% was forced vaginal sex) and 25% of women reported verbal sexual coercion PDF (Which by the way, corresponds to the NISVS Report at the top. The number of men raped by women is almost the same as the number for women raped be men. Also when you add men raping men, men become the majority of the victims. Which means the people writing the NISVS Report were either lying about being the first to check if women force men to penetrate or didn't know about this bit of research. Either way this second data point shows that the numbers are similar to what NISVS found for 2010, during a different time period, that what NISVS found was not an abnormality. So the lifetime rates for the NISVS are either very much incorrect or outright lies.)
The fact is that stats are misrepresented to make the rape of males appear to be less common than it actually is.(Very good article that I suggest you read)
Study of US college women - 12% of the respondents reported ever using any type of force strategy while 43% reported using a coercion strategy and 92% reported using a seduction strategy to initiate sex.
Force strategy, that is a very interesting way to refer to rape.
Rape in the military is rampant, and it affects more men than women due to their disproportionate numbers.
National statistics approximate that 1 in 4 women and 1 in 6 men will be sexually assaulted in their lifetimes.
Men often coerced into sex: study
Predictors of Sexual Coercion Against Women and Men: A Multilevel, Multinational Study of University Students
Yet when rape is discussed in the public sphere, it is always the men that are painted as the rapists and women that are painted as the victims. Jokes about males being raped aren't just common and accepted, they are expected. Men are taught to follow the rules or they will be punished by rape in prison.(ex:Don't drop the soap!)(even though most men raped in prison/jail, are raped by female prison/jail staff.)
In Prison/Jail:
Among inmates reporting staff sexual misconduct, ~ 65% reported a female aggressor. From Sexual Victimization in Prisons and Jails Reported by Inmates, 2008-09 PDF
A few highlights:
Female inmates in prison (4.7%) or jail (3.1%) were more than twice as likely as male inmates in prison (1.9%) or jail (1.3%) to report experiencing inmate- on-inmate sexual victimization.
Sexual activity with facility staff was reported by 2.9% of male prisoners and 2.1% of male jail inmates, compared to 2.1% of female prisoners and 1.5% of female jail inmates.
Up to 15.7% of US prisoners experience rape in 12 month period
Men Outnumber Women Among American Rape Victims(about prison rape)
the Justice Department came up with a new number: 216,000. That’s 216,000 victims, not instances. These victims are often assaulted multiple times over the course of the year. The Justice Department now seems to be saying that prison rape accounted for the majority of all rapes committed in the US in 2008, likely making the United States the first country in the history of the world to count more rapes for men than for women.
Rape of male children:
94% of sexually abused youth in correctional facilities reported being abused by female staff. Only 40% of the staff is female. From Sexual Victimization in Juvenile Facilities, 2008-09 PDF
2004 Study of teacher sexual misconduct. Those that are punished/reprimanded (96% male, 4% female) and those reported by students (57% male, 43% female) PDF (page 24, section 4.2)
The big list of female pedophiles
3 in 4 B.C. boys on street sexually exploited by women
How many were believed:
Sixty-five per cent of the survivors who tried to tell a therapist, doctor, teacher or other professional were not believed the first time they disclosed. Overall, 86% of those who tried to tell anyone were not believed the first time they disclosed.(Female sexual abuse of children pdf)
Long term effects:
Statutory rape victims forced to pay child support
Female Pedophiles Cause Children More Harm, According to Research by University of Bergen, Norway
According to multiple studies, 59% to 80% of male sex offenders were sexually abused by females.
NOTE: Rape is never justified, against anyone. My point is that for many rapists it appears to be behavior learned through personal experiences. The only obvious interpretation of this point, at least to me, is that we need to stop both male and female rapists to decrease the number of rapists.
"59% of the rapists had been heterosexually molested." (Petrovich and Templer, 1984)
Other studies showed: 66% (Groth, 1979) and 80% (Briere and Smiljanich, 1993).
These studies are cited and discussed in: Matthews, Frederick. The Invisible Boy: Revisioning the Victimization of Male Children and Teens. National Clearinghouse on Family Violence, Health Promotion and Programs Branch, Health Canada (1996)
This 25 page review on the issue of female sex offenders, discusses male sex offenders having been sexually molested by women on page 20, the relevant bit starts in the 3rd paragraph from the bottom, after the name Matthews.
Male penitentiary inmates reported higher heterosexual contact as children than did college men.
From the study:
15.88% of college men
45.75% of prison men(overall)
56.92% of rapists
36.96% of child molesters
47.27% of non-sex offenders
And yet, despite all of this, 99.6% of all people incarcerated for rape are men. We need to start putting away female rapists, much like we currently put away the male ones.
I wish someone made a corrected graph
Based on 50% false rape accusations, and whatever estimates are most damning for feminists
Furthermore, the conflation of consensual-but-had-3-beer rapes with forcible rapes like the famous case in India is simply appaling
It diminishes the experience of victims of real forcible violent rape
[–]cuteman1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I have comment about your comment that gives credit to the legitimacy of this subreddit and the movement in general.
This thread could very easily degenerate to a self confirming circlejerk, but instead the top comment is one that seeks to better understand and adapt the methodology in the pursuit of open discussion.
It the long run it does not benefit anybody to censor or accept items just because they are presented in slick graphics, but we should all be concerned and aware of the best available information at the time- men and women, mensrights and feminists both!
[–][deleted]0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Its a Major, major perversion of US law enforcement that now fosters and enables a "Culture of false rape accusations".
Not only is the manufactured statistics that only 2% of rape accusations are false, a stain on American law enforcement, Its also very likely unconstitutional.
[–]theozoph0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Let time-travel circa Germany, 1936 :
I'm sure many people on this subreddit would love to vilify Nazis, but that's a pretty unpopular view and might cause the larger message (anti-semitism is wrong) to be lost.
Oh, yes, please. Let's protect the people most responsible for this state of affair, and the root cause of the problem. I'm sure they'll eventually turn around...
[–]benevolentwalrus100 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
1-in-1877, really? I really don't think you'd have to talk to 1877 campus women to find one who's been raped or sexually assaulted (or even 188 for that matter). Also, the citation for that point is a joke.
Edit: After looking at it, the Kanin study is also a bad joke. His sample size is 109 (laughably small if you're trying to generalize nationally) and his methodology is to just trust the police department of a small Midwestern town to accurately record when rape allegations are false. Not to mention it's nearly 20 years old.
False rape accusations are terrible and most certainly do happen, but this is no more informational than any other sexual violence rhetoric. The numbers just aren't supported by the evidence.
[–]Beatsters47 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Seriously. It seems like people are too busy patting each other on the back for including sources in an infographic that they can't be bothered to actually check those sources.
[–]dungone3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I have yet to see an attempt to refute these sources that isn't just full of misleading strawman arguments and appeals to emotion.
Feminists have a lot of clout in terms of what research is allowed and disallowed. They have also recently compelled the FBI to change the way it defines rape (a bad joke in and of itself) for the sake of keeping statistics. They are very well positioned to try to replicate these studies, improve the methodology, expand the sample sizes, etc. But instead, they busy themselves creating rigged surveys with loaded questions and even then they will ignore the responses in order to inflate numbers.
[–]Jaekman7 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Well if the McDowell (1985) study could be traced then maybe it could be refuted. Forensic Science Digest doesn't even exist and the only thing closest to it, The Forensic Digest has no trace of the study ever being published in it. You can only find McDowell 1985 citied in secondary sources, mostly coming from a book by McDowell in 1987.
Stick to refuting just the ones you can "trace" and I'll be perfectly happy to dismiss the one you can't find. But no one has done it yet.
I imagine that military publications from 1985 might not come up in a Google search; you may have to actually go to a criminal justice library that catalogs it or even to the USAF to get it. Or contact some of the many authors of forensic science textbooks that have referenced it to check where they found it. I don't think anyone has actually done this, so the accusation that it doesn't exist is just an empty assertion. I don't have access to these sort of resources so all I'm going to go by is the sheer amount of special pleading and strawmaning that I see in the "refutations" of the studies we do have access to. I have no reason to believe that the internet feminist brigade would "refute" anything else any differently.
That argument was used to wipe it from wikipedia. I'd say its evidence to speculate the study was suppressed on political disagreement with its conclusions. If you research what McDowell has published, and how pro-rape-complainant it is, there is no reason to assume he'd lie in the other direction.
[–]Beatsters6 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Didn't you read the comment above mine? The sample size is too small. That's no strawman.
[–]dungone7 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
It's not too small. A smaller sample size just gives you a higher margin of error. If your results are still more significant than the margin of error, then your findings are valid. The general rule of thumb for sample sizes is that you use a 95% confidence interval under normal distribution, where 100 samples gives you a 10% margin of error. That's not bad, considering that Kanin's sample showed that 41% of rape accusers had recanted. That means you'll never get the "2-8%" from this data that other studies had pulled out of thin air just by margin of error alone - even if you expand it to 400 or 1000 samples.
Blindly making up stuff to try to discredit some data without having any apparent understanding of statistics is nothing more than special pleading. Which is what I'm saying is the only type of "refutation" I have ever seen about the Kanin study.
[–]dellsharpie6 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I'm inclined to agree with your perspective, but I think what the person you are arguing with is saying is that the original data being used is biased or compromised considering it's geographic location, which is a possibility. Your margin of error is essentially irrelevant if you conduct your survey in an area where rape couldn't feasibly exist (I am saying this from a theoretical stand point). That being said however, I do not understand why people don't look at this study and say it says something! Even in a sample size this small the numbers of recantations are large, especially considering the community structure. This should lead a social scientist to conduct further studies, like how much religious pressure is there to conceal activities, community pressure and the like, to paint a more accurate picture.
Essentially to disregard a study simply because the sample size is small, but the study was conducted properly IS a strawman argument. I don't believe that this study was meant to be comprehensive and all-inclusive, but people have to start from somewhere to get funding for further studies. Look at the Mary Koss study, despite the flawed methodology that was employed, this study being a first of it's kind should have created additional studies. Instead people run with the 1 in 4 rape statistic like it's the word of god.
Really what we have now is people convinced there is a huge rape problem because of biased statistics, and actual studies are always being attacked despite finds that don't coincide with the picture that was initially created. Do we need more studies on how prevalent rape is? Yes. Do we need more studies for the counter culture that over-reacting to rape culture is creating a wake of victims? Yes. Do people need to objectively look at both sets of data to draw accurate conclusions and create better plans moving forward? Hell yes.
[–]dungone2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
If the person I was arguing with said that the sample is not representative of other communities, I would have agreed with them on that. But then I would point out that the Mary Koss "1 in 4" study used an opt-in self-reported sample of college students and it didn't have even the slightest chance in hell of detecting false allegations, let alone real rapes. My argument isn't that Kanin was perfect, it's that the people who are criticizing it are doing so on ideological grounds and they don't seem to know good science if it hits them in the face.
I agree with everything you're saying here, especially the fact that Kanin's study should have prompted people to conduct far more thorough studies regardless of their ideological affiliation. It really baffles me that feminists actually believe that they can conduct a simple survey full of loaded questions and actually have the public believe that this "work" is good enough to supplant Kanin's.
[–]dellsharpie2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
On that we definitely agree.
[–]Beatsters3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Kanin says in the conclusion of the study that the small sample makes it difficult to generalize the findings. He says quite plainly that he does not suggest that the results of this study can be extrapolated to other populations. He suggests that more studies under similar conditions in different cities need to be conducted to corroborate his findings.
[–]dungone1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
He suggests that more studies under similar conditions in different cities need to be conducted to corroborate his findings.
Corroboration through repeated experimentation? Where did I hear that before? Oh yeah, it's the scientific method. That's true of every single experiment, ever. If Mary Koss said that at the end of her methodologically flawed study, would feminists denounce her data and stop using the 1-in-4 figure she came up with as if it were fact?
[–]Beatsters2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I don't recall denouncing the data, if that's what you're implying. I merely echoed the point that the sample size is too small to generalize nationally, which is a conclusion drawn by the study itself.
The sample size is not too small. You can keep saying it's too small all you want but it won't make it so.
Generalize nationally has to do with the sample pool not the sample size. If the sample pool is not representative then you can't generalize it no matter many samples you pull from it. But the sample pool used in this study was nevertheless far more representative than you would ever get in the sort of opt-in self-report surveys of college students that sociologists are prone to use. By this standard, we should be throwing away nearly every finding sociologists had ever made, including 99% of statistics generated by the feminist movement.
Here's a self-report study of men which found that, by the sort of definitions that Mary Koss had used, 95% of men had either been raped or sexually assaulted: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22375635
[–]Beatsters1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Ah yes I've been phrasing it incorrectly. I'll be sure to read that study, thanks!
[–]electriophile0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
That's not bad, considering that Kanin's sample showed that 41% of rape accusers had recanted.
Nope.
Kanin, Lisak writes, took his data from a police department whose investigation procedures are condemned by the U.S. Justice Department and the International Association of Chiefs of Police. These procedures include the almost universal threat, in this department, of polygraph testing of complainants, which is viewed as a tactic of intimidation that leads victims to avoid the justice process and which, Lisak says, is "based on the misperception that a significant percentage of sexual assault reports are false." The police department's "biases...were then echoed in Kanin’s unchallenged reporting of their findings."...
...He argues that the study's most significant problem is Kanin's assumption "that police officers abided by departmental policy in only labeling as false those cases where the complainant admitted to fabrication. He does not consider that actual police practice, as other studies have shown, might have departed from guidelines."
He assumed that all reports determined by a (corrupt) police department to be false had been admitted to be false. Given that department's investigative procedures, it seems more likely that the investigators in question intimidated and coerced many alleged victims into recanting.
False accusations are a bigger problem than some feminists may claim, but let's not destroy credibility by quoting faulty studies.
He assumed that all reports determined by a (corrupt) police department
I read Lisak's attack on the study and I read the study. Lisak is outright lying about it in a really fucked up way. I can't think of a better example that gets to the heart of what I'm saying about these "refutations" of Kanin's study and how ridiculous they are. The fact that so many people are going by what some idiot said about the study rather than what the study said goes to show just how much bias and ideological motive there is to find the study wrong at all costs.
Kanin's report:
The police department will not declare a rape charge as false when the complainant, for whatever reason, fails to pursue the charge or cooperate on the case, regardless how much doubt the police may have regarding the validity of the charge. In short, these cases are declared false only because the complainant admitted they are false. Furthermore, only one person is then empowered to enter into the records a formal declaration that the charge is false, the officer in charge of records.
Kanin spelled out in no uncertain terms that he was NOT using a police department's "label." He also had the case records himself.
A ranking police official notified us whenever a rape charge was declared false and provided us with the records of the case.
The records, which included the recantation. From which Kanin was not only able to determine that they were false, but also why the accuser had lied about it in the first place
these false charges were able to serve three major functions for the complainants: providing an alibi, a means of gaining revenge, and a platform for seeking attention/sympathy. This tripartite model resulted from the complainants' own verbalizations during recantation and does not constitute conjecture.
Seriously, Lisak has absolutely no credibility in his review of this study, which he got strictly from reading it the same way as anyone of us can: http://web.archive.org/web/20061229091333/http://www.sexcriminals.com/library/doc-1002-1.doc Why in the hell do people still quote Lisak about it, even years later, no matter how many times it's been shown that his review is a flagrant lie?
He assumed that all reports determined by a (corrupt) police department to be false had been admitted to be false.
Oh, the conspiracy theory argument. Heard it before, laughed at it before.
[–]Godspiral0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
First, Lisak is a worthless piece of shit liar.
On the issue of polygraphs in the Kanin study, the results of the polygraph (when it was used... sometimes it was just offered) were never used to determine that a complaint was false. ONLY the complainant admitting that no rape occurred counted as false.
A polygraph as an investigation tool is about saying "the magic box and the guy in white coat behind it think you are lying... is there something you want to tell us now?" If you say I am a lying cunt as a response, it is because you are a lying cunt. Not a breakdown because you are frustrated of not being believed. Wherever it was possible in the Kanin study, the complainant was asked what really happened, and it matched the accused's version of events every time.
Society doesn't want to believe rape lies are this common, but they are. Every experienced and competent investigator in every western country says from his own files it is 40%-50%
[–]electriophile1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
They have also recently compelled the FBI to change the way it defines rape (a bad joke in and of itself) for the sake of keeping statistics.
You mean the change in the definition of rape that allowed men to legally be victims of rape? That's a joke to you?
Why are you asking me a loaded question? Your question is a joke to me, as is the new definition. Why don't you actually ask me why instead of trying to imply that I view male victims as a joke? The new definition doesn't actually do what you say it does; it's got nothing to do with that.
[–]dungone15 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
raped or sexually assaulted
Limit your argument to "rape" and do not conflate "rape" with "sexual assault." The info-graphic and all citations were referring exclusively to "rape."
Besides that, your argument is not only anecdotal, but it's unfalsifiable. If a high degree of rape accusations are false, then you can "talk" to however many campus women you please and it does not do a single thing to prove or disprove the number of false accusations.
[–]benevolentwalrus5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
The graphic says "Feminists claim that 1-in-4 of female students will be the victim of sexual assault or rape during their time at college."
You're right on the second point and I'm not suggesting that asking directly would settle the issue of people lying about rape. I'm saying that 1-in-1877 is patently absurd. Does that honestly seem reasonable to you, based on your experience with women in the world? I mean, I doubt many people reading this don't know at least one or two girls who were sexually assaulted in college. 1-in-4 is an exaggeration too, but no more than 1-in-1877.
[–]dungone8 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
The "1-in-4" conflates sexual assault with rape in order to make the incidence of rape sound more prevalent. If you go through and actually look at the definitions used to come up with that figure, you would see that this is exactly what their aim was, with a study that was full of loaded questions. The point of the info-graphic was to fix the conflation by pointing out contrary evidence for rape. That way when we hear about the number of women who were raped, we're not mixing it up with women whose boyfriends asked, "are you sure?" once when they weren't in the mood.
(edited, sorry)
[–]benevolentwalrus2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Good point
[–]tone_0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
What the absolute fuck? I can say that I know exactly zero women who have been raped or sexually assaulted throughout my time studying and in adult life. Obviously this refers mainly to people I know well enough to talk to (a fair few!), but news and rumours would unfortunately spread either way, neither of which I ever heard.
I live in the UK, maybe statistics are different here. But I promise you it's not fucking normal for me to know anyone, or for anyone I know to know anyone who has been a victim of rape or sexual assault.
I'd actually go as far as to say in all of your somewhat, sometimes logical argument, the statement "I doubt many people reading this don't know at least one or two girls who were sexually assaulted in college." is a wildly misleading crock of shit.
[–]benevolentwalrus1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Haha! Okay, granted, the old "appeal to individual experience" argument isn't iron-clad. I was just trying to get at the fact that if the actual number were anywhere near 1-in-1877 then accounts of rape and sexual assault would be exceedingly rare, whereas my experience is that they are fairly common - far too common to be a statistical outlier. I'm glad it's not normal to you, but where I've been it very much is.
[–]tone_1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Okay, well it seems that neither of us are spot on then. As just because it's high where you are, doesn't mean what you're reading is inaccurate. Just like I can't say it's right / too common even, based on my experience. Also to quote that number you'd have to factor in, as others have already pointed out, a roughly 50-60% false accusation rate.
Your sample size is too small, and that's not how statistics work. You might not know anyone who has been raped, but someone else may know a lot of people who have been raped. For example, I know at least three people who have been raped: My mother, my sister in law, and my little brother.
What? I know full well how statistics work. Just because you know some people who fit into your viewpoint, that means you can claim statistics in your favour? By your same logic, you may know a lot of people who have been raped, but someone else may not know anyone. Why are you randomly picking sides and then telling other people they don't understand...?
[–]electriophile2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Just because you know some people who fit into your viewpoint, that means you can claim statistics in your favour?
No, but you can't claim statistics in your favor either. It's neutral. We both have sample sizes that are much too small; we only have the statistics published by people who did have sufficiently large sample sizes.
By your same logic, you may know a lot of people who have been raped, but someone else may not know anyone.
That's... exactly what I said. You said you don't know anyone who has been raped, and I said that could be offset by the fact that I know several. Naturally, it goes the other way. If A = B, then of course B = A. Again, that's how statistics work.
Agreed. But initially I said that your comment about knowing multiple or any victims was way off.
Again, please stop quoting "how statistics work". It doesn't look smart and it makes you appear as a total condescending asshole. I can thoroughly assure you, I am quite proficient concerning statistical analysis and I, like I'd imagine most other people here, do not require lectures from you.
You're now just parroting my initial point. I said your comments were leading, and that your basic summation about the normality of people knowing multiple victims was incorrect. I didn't say my viewpoint was correct, just that yours was incorrect, as it was based on your own experiences. Something you now appear to agree with. If you didn't really mean that all along, then fair enough, otherwise it was a valid comment.
I said your comments were leading, and that your basic summation about the normality of people knowing multiple victims was incorrect
I never said that it's normal to know multiple victims. That was /u/benevolentwalrus. I was just adding my experience because you were like, "What the actual fuck, it's not normal to know women who have been sexually victimized!" I simply added that your experience of what is "normal" may be a little limited. Granted, mine is too, but neither of us can go making claims about what is normal.
Well yes, whoever said it, it appeared you were on that side of the argument.
So what I originally said was that his opinion that he was expressing as fact differed from my experiences, and was thus not "normal". Which seems to be your view also. I even said "it's not fucking normal for me to know anyone." I'm sure you didn't intentionally misquote me.
I can and will make the claim that his definition of normal is inaccurate and wrong. Based on my belief that he does not have enough evidence, and my own observations and experiences. I also offered the possibility of locations being a factor, as I can give a pretty good definition of what is normal where I live. Taking into account my own experiences and the experiences of others I am close to.
I know a few girls who have lied about being raped.
The police station in question was repeatedly condemned by the US Justice Department for corruption and improper investigation procedures.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape#Kanin.27s_report
Wow, really good spin! The general practice of offering a polygraph test as a serious option to accusers was the only thing frowned upon by the Justice Department. This has nothing to do with this police station nor with corruption. Seriously, Lisak lied about the study and you're actually adding stuff on top of it that not even Lisak said.
the Kanin study is also a bad joke
The Kanin study has the right protocol, and replicated by McDowell. You have to ask difficult questions to a liar in order to find out liars. Results tend to depend on how good the investigator is.
his methodology is to just trust the police department of a small Midwestern town to accurately record when rape allegations are false
That is outright false. The methodology relied on only the liar admitting that no rape occurred. The results undercount the number of false rape claims, if anything, because many liars would never admit to lying.
His sample size is 109
That is enough to get a 99% confidence interval of +/- 12%, or 95% CI of +/- 9%. A 29%+ or 32%+ false rape incidence rate would still be a significant problem.
Kanin, also reported on a similar protocol study with 64 sample size that had a 50% false result. You complained about there being single department. That raises departments to 3. And total combined results are (45+32) / (173) = 44.5%, with confidence intervals of 7.4 at 95%, and 9.75 at 99%. That means we are 99.5% sure that false rape rates are at least 34.75%
full study
[–]braveathee1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Contrary to what the study says, this is rape :
A married 30-year-old female reported that she had been raped in her apartment complex. During the polygraph examination, she admitted that she was a willing partner. She reported that she had been raped because her partner did not stop before ejaculation, as he had agreed, and she was afraid she was pregnant. Her husband is overseas.
[–]super_cookies1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I would have to disagree upon the sample size of the Kanin study and its methodology. According the mean value theorem, a 99% confidence level of the study shows that the lowest confidence interval value would be 40.1%. You must also consider that it took nine year to gather results and that further gathering might have been financially impractical. What one might want to do is recreate the study and compare the results.
As for the reliability of the data, I found this tidbit comforting.
agency policy forbids police officers to use their discretion in deciding whether to officially acknowledge a rape complaint, regardless how suspect that complaint may be... The investigation of all rape complaints always involves a serious offer to polygraph the complainants and the suspects. Additionally, for a declaration of false charge to be made, the complainant must admit that no rape had occurred. The police department will not declare a rape charge as false when the complainant, for whatever reason, fails to pursue the charge or cooperate on the case...
As for the outdatedness of the study, I am not sure whether the trend in false allegations has changed.
[–][deleted]-5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
While the Kanin study standing alone appears to have it's problems (and it does, and Kanin himself even admits them), it combined along with many other studies using varying mythologies still come up with the same numbers; 9% to 50%, with researchers believing the real number being closer to 50%.
The age (20 years) has nothing to do with accuracy. This is not a study on crop rotation techniques. False rape accusations do not have an expiry date.
The numbers are supported by evidence, but it is near impossible for me to make a catchy graphic with all of the evidence that still fits on a computer screen :P. But it did grab your attention, and now you can spend a bit more time researching! http://www.cotwa.info/p/information-about-wrongful-rape-claims.html
[–]benevolentwalrus8 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
If you have a more methodologically sound study I'd cite that instead. This is kind of a pet peeve: combining studies without defining your inclusion criteria is meaningless. You can't generalize a bunch of studies of various quality and call it a solid conclusion (like that old story about how nobody knows how long the nose of the emperor is, so they average the guesses). "Researchers" also find [lower]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_accusation_of_rape#Rumney) rates.
Of course, this is a quibble over details, not your overall point. Just worth considering if you're presenting the data to someone not inclined to agree with you.
As I said in another comment somewhere around here, I whipped this image up in 5 minutes as I was late for work. The original image/news post came out recently so I wanted to jump on it fast rather than wait 12 hours to get back home from work. I could have done a better job, I'll keep your critiques in mind for any future images I make :p
[–]Vegemeister1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
come up with the same numbers; 9% to 50%
hwut
[–]sultanate52 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I like that you've compiled your sources and actually cited them, and it serves as a great counter to this extremely misleading graphic.
My only gripe with it is the inclusion of the Air Force study. Personally I think it seems a bit dated, and of anyone has any more recent data on this issue pertaining to military, I'd love to see it. A lot has changed for female service members in the last 27 or so years.
EDIT: I'm bad at math, I guess.
[–]Godspiral12 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
the inclusion of the Air Force study. Personally I think it seems a bit dated
The first thing to understand is that there are few proper studies of rape allegations because the real results are politically oppressed. Both Kanin and McDowell are/were prominent feminists that advanced the rape culture agenda, including oversensitive treatment of complainants and duluth model advocacy designed to maximize the number of men harrassed and put in jail.
The lack of repetition is directly related to the political ostracisation that resulted from truth exposing, and no funding for further truth discovery.
To consider it an issue that it is dated, implies that culture and the nature of society has changed significantly since the 80s/90s
To quote from Kanin's paper on his study
If the culture of presumed belief and sympathy for rape complainants hasn't changed in last 27 years, then there is no reason to think that the incidence of falsehoods has changed either.
[–]RedditBlueit1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I'm reading through the DoD's 2011 Annual Report.
There were 2353 Sexual Assault cases disposed (completed) in Fiscal Year 2011. 244 of those were considered "unfounded". Another 35 went forward for disciplinary action, but the Command declined to act because the claim was considered "unfounded". (This doesn't include 482 cases where the Command could not act due to lack of victim participation, lack of evidence, or statue of limitations).
So of the 2353 reported sexual assualt cases, 11.8% were "unfounded". The number of false allegations is not tracked, and little effort is put into determining whether an allegation which does not produce a conviction is a false allegation.
From the report:
The DoD uses the term “sexual assault” to refer to a range of crimes, including rape, aggravated sexual assault, nonconsensual sodomy, aggravated sexual contact, abusive sexual contact, wrongful sexual contact, and attempts to commit these offenses, as defined by the UCMJ.
blog.lib.umn.edu/jbs/maysession/KaninFalseRapeAllegations.pdf
Actually no, although we should both understand that we are dealing with an extremely technical exaggeration of rape either way.
Its definitely not rape, because pre-agreed limits on sexual activity 1 hour ago, has no bearing on what you are consenting to this second.
We don't allow consent/intent of pregnancy to affect any men's rights to parenthood, and so I don't think we'd allow them to influence women's right to abuse rape technicalities.
Only very demented people could view empowering women to coerce rape technicalities by withdrawing consent at climax time could view such empowerment as socially positive.
The DoD actually takes Sexual Assaults pretty seriously; they're under tremendous pressure to "do something". There are extensive statistics collected at the DOD Sexual Assault Prevention Center. Check the sections marked "Annual Reports" and "Research" at the bottom.
What you will not find on the site are the words "false allegations" or "false accusations". When word got out that AFOSI was using a questionaire to judge sexual assault victims' credibility, there was a shitstorm from feminists. It's not politically correct to assume anything but 100% truthiness from alleged victims.
[–]Apellosine1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
It's not politically correct to assume anything but 100% truthiness from alleged victims.
Fixed that last sentence up for you there.
[–]jeampz1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I agree, the final claim to me was the most eye-opening. Here's the link to the last article but I've had a hard time finding this claim of 1 in 4 being made. Does anyone have something to show that this isn't just a strawman?
[–][deleted]20 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
The 1-in-4 is not a Strawman. The 1-in-4 stat has been College/University drivel for years. It originated in a 1982 magazine poll, and even if you read the poll itself you'll soon see that even it doesn't go as far to say 1-in-4. http://www.iwf.org/news/2432517/One-in-Four-Rape-myths-do-injustice-too and a large collection of rape related material: http://www.cotwa.info/p/information-about-wrongful-rape-claims.html
[–]nowatermelonnokfc6 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
It's 'drivel', not dribble.
[–][deleted]6 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I have no idea what you are talking about ;)
[–][deleted]12 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I have read it and heard it from feminists and even just normal women for years and years. Christina Hoff Sommers refuted all these fake statistics, so I think her book would list the sources. I'm not sure which book I read, but I think you would find it in Who Stole Feminism. When I googled I found the NYT saying 1 in 5 (still unlikely IMO), and the Huffington Post saying 1 in 4. Another site says it is 1 in 4 but converts that to 15%, so...I guess statistics are kind of a patriarchal nuisance.
[–]ZorbaTHut4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I've had a hard time finding this claim of 1 in 4 being made. Does anyone have something to show that this isn't just a strawman?
The 1-in-4 number comes from an extremely old and badly-designed study by Mary Koss. There's a reasonably good dissection of it here, and GWW has a large teardown of it as well. It used to be used a lot more frequently - people seem to be toning it down lately.
[–]Ma99ie4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
The 1 in 4 statistic is used by feminist by mistake. The actual statistic was 1 in 4 women were the victims of rape, or attempted rape. This came from a study of Mary Koss. Mary Koss included incidents of alleged rape or attempted rape in which the supposed victim herself did not call the activity rape or attempted rape. It is feminist propaganda. Rape is a political tool that feminist for many purposes, and lie about its prevalence.
[–]sibqm_lmvm42 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Found this comment in the TwoX thread:
The graph is completely wrong. It does not match their sources at all. How did they even figure out the number of rapists? Rapes are measured not rapists. All figures exclude any men being raped, probably as a definitional matter. You also can't measure those falsely accused, because you don't know how many of those reported and not prosecuted were false claims. That also ignores non-legal accusations that can be thrown.
If I was even going to be generous and turn rapists in to rapes it would still be awful. The rapes vs reported, for example, on their graph is 1 in 10, while the Crime Victimization Survey puts it at 27% in 2011, which is strange because it was 50% reported in 2010.
>Some reports suggest that only 5-25% of rapes are reported to authorities. Other suggest that close to half are reported. We assumed 10%, which is dramatic, but possible.
Oh, I see. They just picked a low number out of thin air.
>This infographic doesn’t do a perfect job, but it combines data from several sources, both domestic and international.
Great! The sources could be mixed from Uganda, USA and the United Kingdom! This makes it highly informative. We aren't even talking about the US, that makes sense of it. We are talking about a mix of sources from all over the world where they pick a low estimate because they want to.
If you wanted to increase the number of convictions, the best single way to do it would be not to drop your claim or refuse to cooperate. Dropping the rape claim or refusing to cooperate are cited as the top reason for prosecutions not happening and cases being closed.
[–]Adake39 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Christ, the two stories of the boys that were assaulted were extremely saddening.
[–][deleted]35 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Indeed they are. Another recent and very popular sad story is the one in the picture of: http://www.cotwa.info/2012/06/bygones-be-bygones-unspeakable.html
[–][deleted]17 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
You know what I don't get? I've never seen his attorney's name provided. People should know not to use her as she's apparently not a good lawyer and also a bit of a racist.
You'd think this kind of screwup on her part would be punished by capitalism.
The idea that his OWN LAWYER refused to let him meet with his parents is, frankly, shocking and disgusting. That's disbarring-level shit right there.
[–]dinky_hawker5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
stepping away from the Banks story for a sec, I can see a reason for advising a client not to meet with parents (such as controlling behavior, or other treachery that the client refuses to see, etc.)
also, plea deals are often offered via hard-sell tactics. It's wrong, but not at all unusual.
[–]Greyfeld4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I was in trouble with the law when I was a minor, and my DA refused to let me discuss anything with my parents before making a decision, because he knew from my psych report that my parents were super controlling and would twist my arm to do what they wanted me to do, no matter what it was that I wanted for myself. I was really thankful to him for that.
Unfortunately, my situation isn't necessarily the norm.
[–][deleted]4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Terrifyingly wrong. His family sold their house to pay her!
[–]Adake14 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Fuck that woman. Fuck everything about her and her $750'000.
Although she'd probably enjoy it, the fuckhole.
[–]apotshot11 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Brian told her about his ordeal; oblivious to his suffering, she tried to match what he said by relating what she had been through.
rage so much rage
[–]RD_Is_Best_Pony5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Although she'd probably (falsely) accuse rape
FTFY
[–]nanowerx12 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Gibson was asked if Brian raped her, and she said, "No, he did not rape me." Mr. Parish said to himself, "Wow! I got it!" But she also admitted that was concerned she would have to return the $750,000 payment from the civil suit against Long Beach schools. She told Brian: “I will go through with helping you but it’s like at the same time all that money they gave us, I mean gave me, I don’t want to have to pay it back.”
Followed with:
L.A. prosecutors have also said they have no plans to charge Gibson for making false accusations, saying it would be a tough case to prove.
ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?! His conviction was eventually overturned because they got her on tape admitting he didn't rape her, but that isn't good enough evidence to convict her of a false rape claim?!! I give up, that...that is just some serious bullshit.
[–]Bragzor1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I believe that was the point. It's an appeal to emotions.
[–]Moustachiod_T-Rex26 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Whilst debunking that original graphic is very important, I object to the emotive use of those insets of the bloodied faces of falsely accused kids. It's manipulative. It's a point better made with words and a citation.
I also think that one of the key problems with the original graphic is that it the number of 'rapists' comes from a very highly flawed crime victimisation survey (I believe?). Explaining why the source used to create the graphic would be a much more succinct way of debunking it, rather than going through this very secondary route of not really debunking the graphic but rather just supplying contradictory facts.
I slapped this together in like 5 minutes because I was late for work (and this made me later haha) and in hind-sight I could have done a better job. It's not the best but it'll get the job done. As for the "bloodied faces of falsely accused kids" people see thousands of images in their days now so something needs to stand-out so they actually take the time to read the text. And I disagree that it is emotive. If I was posting images against Nazi Germany circa 1940, posting pictures of Jews and their physical condition in Auschwitz would not be emotive, it would be showcasing the facts and the horrors faced by them.
[–]Moustachiod_T-Rex6 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Thank you for taking the time to make it, regardless of any criticisms of it.
Those insets certainly are emotive. They trigger an emotional, not rational, response.
As I said in another comment, emotive images and text are great as a rallying cry internal to a group, but outsiders look at it much more critically. Graphics like this are most effective against people who don't already share your ideology when they appear to be unbiased. Bloodied faces of kids do not make it appear unbiased.
[–][deleted]-1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
It would be impossible for me to make something unbiased, it's just... human nature I guess. I do like the two faces I added though. It paints a pretty clear picture on what happens to High School aged boys who are accused of rape, falsely or otherwise.
[–]TheCatPaul1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
In regards to the Nazi argument. That is true, but that is how every Jew was treated. In this case it is, lucky I might add, a pretty uncommon incident.
Good point.
[–]cronus854 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I think it is important to frame this issue and other men's rights issues both episodically and thematically. Episodic framing such as those boys stories helps provoke an emotional response that can be very effective and places these issues in a more real context and lasts in the mind longer. Thematic framing, such as the exposition of false or misleading facts, ideas or narratives are more convincing from a rational point of view, but are shorter lived in accessible memory.
So, in the words of a small Mexican child - Why not both?
[–]Moustachiod_T-Rex4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Because how do you feel when you see a (flawed) feminist argument that uses manipulative and essentially meaningless emotive evidence? If you're like me, it makes you annoyed at the feminist that created it. "They only resorted to this because their statistics are flawed" you might think.
In the case of this post's graphic, it's difficult for us to see what's wrong with it because we already agree with it. We see those emotive insets as being justified and bringing light to an underpublicised issue.
Feminists, or homosexuals, or blacks, or druggies, or any other interest group feels exactly the same way about their emotive arguments. And internally to them it's a great rallying cry. But when someone critical looks at it, someone who doesn't already agree with them, they just see fraud and needless manipulation.
[–]cronus851 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
While I agree that hard evidence should always remain at the forefront of MRs, these pictures and stories are useful case studies and put a 'face' to MRs issues. To not use such a resource appears (at least to me) as being unwise.
Take for example the recent tragedy is India. Women's rights in India are known to be arse, this case rose the profile of women's issues there and it spurred action and there was evidence to back it up.
I don't think we should run off and print a bunch of posters with these boys faces on them just yet, but these sorts of cases studies could go a long way in shifting the perception that men not just the perpetrators of violence but also victims of it.
I think that the point of this graphic is to show that the original highly slanted infographic is cruel to some of the very real victims of false rape accusations. I think that the emotive use of those images conveys the reason why feminists should stop resorting to special pleading that dismisses evidence which does not line up with their point of view. Part of that is an ethical/moral concern, because we're dealing with people who are basically lying.
[–]McPuccio22 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
SO MANY SOURCES.
I dig it.
If someone showed me the original infographic with a bunch of reputable sources I'd also say...
Sources win the day, and the argument.
[–]McFeely_Smackup17 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I'm a former police officer, and for 6 years I was responsible for compiling the year-end crime statistics.
"False Rape Accusation" was a statistic we specifically tracked. Who decided that I don't know, but there was no "study" needed, you just had to read my report every year.
In the 6 years I compiled the numbers, our "false rape accusation" percentage never fell below 33%, and one year was 100% (1 out of 1...we didn't have any real rapes that year).
And just to be clear, "false" was defined not as "unfounded" or "found not guilty", it was defined as the accuser saying "I made it up"...so it's entirely possible the false number was even higher without the person ever admitting it.
Anyone who downplays false rape accusations isnt' living in the real world. It's far more common than they'd have you believe.
You know how you always hear "3/4 of rapes are never reported"...well, how many FALSE rape accusations are never reported? As in "if you don't do 'x' I'll say you raped me". False rape is a fantastically under reported phenomenon and there is significant political pressure to keep it that way.
American Gender-feminists groups "Empower" themselves over other groups with rape hysteria, and if the rape hysteria went away, their false "Empowerment" over other groups would soon fallow.
[–]McFeely_Smackup4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
You've made a very important point that bears repeating, or at least stating in simpler terms.
The Feminist Agenda NEEDS rape, the more the better. If they don't have enough legitimate rape, then imaginary rape will do just fine. If rape were somehow eliminated, the feminist agenda collapses... So that's the last thing the want.
[–]noodleworm16 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Its a good point, though i believe the point of the original graphic, even though misleading, was probably to encourage more women to report their rapes. I do know of a lot of girls who were raped and didn't report them, because anything other than stranger in a dark alley becomes 'he says, she says'. So I would have some doubts, if a large number of reports were recanted, does not necessarily mean it never happened, more so that the pressure of trial was just not worth it.
False rape claims are really serious and need to stop, but since I know women who have suffered, I hate the fact they think no one believe them.
[–][deleted]15 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
"I hate the fact they think no one believe them." So do I, and so does everyone else. The two biggest fears I have in life is 1) Being accused of something I did not do, and 2) Having something happen to me and no one believes me.
It does suck that some people are afraid to report their rape. But that is their problem to deal with, and theirs alone. Laws should not be changed, nor should the onus of proof be lessened just to make rape victims feel more comfortable. Reporting rape should be just as difficult, stressful, and painful as reporting any other crime. The best way to solve the problem of false rape accusations is to encourage real rape victims to report their crimes through counselling and peer help, not creating laws specially for women rape victims.
[–]TheSacredParsnip7 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
This is a great comment. I wish people would understand that we are sympathetic to rape victims. We don't want them to go unheard. We just want false accusers to have their day in court as well. This shouldn't have any negative impact on actual victims.
[–]baskandpurr1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
The problem is caused by the false accusers. If 50% of the rape allegations you ever hear are false, then any rape report is a might-be/might-not-be scenario. If women only reported rape in actual cases of rape, then no doubt would be attached to any report.
The feminist picture of rape as sex where the females changes her mind later only makes this worse. Rape is a terrible crime and its sad that feminists and women generally use it to gain power even if that harms the real victims. What you can't do is blame men for the doubt over rape reports. Men don't falsely report rape.
[–]JustOffendedYou0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
i have a totally data-less and unsupported, anecdotal at best and completely wrong at worst, pet theory about this.
tighten perjury laws. everyone seems to think that if we start to criminalize false rape accusations in a significant way, people will be more afraid to come forward. This is bullshit. Right now with our loose, 'report it if you regret it no harm done' approach, we've created a stigma that someone could very well be lying. Let's get rid of that stigma. Enforce strict laws that ruining someone's life over a false accusation is a unacceptable, and you will be caught if you try it. Then when someone reports a rape, people will have to give it more respect. More respect = less fear about coming forward with legitimate cases.
Source: absolutely nothing. About as much as that infographic has.
[–]cuteman3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I do know of a lot of girls who were raped and didn't report them, because anything other than stranger in a dark alley becomes 'he says, she says'.
The problem with that is that vengence does not help an actual victim heal or become whole. But justice and truth against False accusations could very well save somebody's life.
[–]noodleworm1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I don't think vengeance helps. I only think reporting is useful as a deterrent to stop the person doing it again. Obviously that depends on the case.
Indeed, but I definitely feel that the actual evidence is strong enough to stand on its own.
Lying about falsely reported rapes (and placing them among total theorized rapes--rather than reported rapes) is not an effective long-term strategy. We as a society are pretty quick to expose lies today and an exposed lie does far more damage in the long run to a good movement than it ever could do to help.
if a large number of reports were recanted, does not necessarily mean it never happened, more so that the pressure of trial was just not worth it.
Its a silly assumption though. You can choose to stop cooperating without recanting your story. A false recantation would be a prosecutable crime, and an unnecessary admission of one of the most despicably shameful acts possible.
was probably to encourage more women to report their rapes
There is no reason for such a policy. If anyone has a preference to not report a crime, that preference should be respected. They have no responsibility to a feminist rape-culture political agenda. Common reasons not to report include: "it was no big deal", "I feel partly responsible", "I forgive them", "it's a personal matter". You/society never has the information to second guess such reasons, and pressure to report, is in fact a common cause of false complaints.
About half of all false rape complaints are motivated by accountability avoidance: An excuse for failing at life or failing to meet parents/husband/boyfriend's rules and expectations (curfews/drinking/not fucking around). When you pressure a girl, who just wanted to get out of trouble with a lie to her social circle, to go to the police, you cause false allegations, and harm to men.
[–]CatManDontDo14 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
This is why I love /r/MensRights because of the facts.
[–][deleted]7 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Mensrights stats aren't necessarily true either. Both Mensrights and Feminist stats tend to exaggerate to move their cause. However, I can take a gamble that most mensrights stats are far, far more accurate than the feminists.
[–][deleted]11 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Why?
[–]dinky_hawker11 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
people tend to defend stats from the feminism camp and repeat them uncritically. They make MRAs prove it.
[–][deleted]8 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
The feminists have institutionalised academic infrastructure with which to come up with biased statistics.
[–]TheCatPaul3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Seriously stop treating this shit like a conspiracy theory.
It's actually an evidence-based theory
I don't think any particular feminists are conspiring as a group to do this. But such things can be emergent and unintended.
And the people that spread and use bullshit statistics (like the 1-in-4 women will be raped one) hide behind the actual academic feminist studies, which are much closer to reality, although they tend to be biased. The more sensationalistic ones are spread more widely, and nobody has a semi-accurate picture of what's going on.
It's unfortunate that we can't really know what's actually going on. Well... we could but I personally am too busy not being an academic sociologist to find out.
That's really true.
[–]Bragzor9 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I don't know. A lot of the stuff I see on Mensrights falls decidedly in the "conspiracy theory" category, but is seemingly equally accepted as the truth. Not saying that's the case here, even if the arrows seem to indicate a correlation between not being convicted and being innocent. That said, false accusations of any kind is detrimental to everyone, but most of all the true victims.
[–]blueoak91 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
"Not saying that's the case here, even if the arrows seem to indicate a correlation between not being convicted and being innocent."
Your lack of regard for due process is is not intellectual rigor, it is just a matter of esthetic taste. It's not really valid as anything more. If oyu care to be so rigorous, what metric other than actual convictions would you suggets to determine the incidence of rape?
Your lack of regard for due process is is not intellectual rigor
I fail to see how intellectual rigour is relevant. If what you are trying to prove depends on the assumption that everyone that is convicted is guilty, and that everyone else is innocent, then that should be backed up. Maybe I was a bit too sloppy when I wrote that. I didn't expect anyone to engage in a discussion about semantics. What I mean was not correlation, but equation.
it is just a matter of esthetic taste. It's not really valid as anything more.
I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion, but I sure am intrigued, so please explain.
If oyu care to be so rigorous, what metric other than actual convictions would you suggets to determine the incidence of rape?
I'm not the one trying to find a metric. Frankly, I find the whole infographic silly, mainly because of this issue. However, if I was forced, I imagine taking into account why the case was dropped/lost, studies (if such exist) about the number of guilty freed. In this case I might have used the very sources I was visualising, non of which indicated the number of false accusations that the picture suggests.
[–]DerickBurton1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Are you saying that someone falsely accused of rape is not a true victim or were you saying that the accused are the true victims?
No and no. I was saying that the picture suggests that if you're not convicted and sentenced, then you didn't do it, and are therefore being framed. This is clearly not the case.
[–]orsonames2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I'm glad that you pointed this out. I had no idea how to phrase the sentiment that you expressed, which is that even true, methodologically sound statistics can advance just about any cause they want, depending on their interpretation. People's inability or unwillingness to look critically at statistics and how they're used is incredibly frustrating for me to see.
I do not like the bullshit MRA stats, which is why you do not find the laughably bad ones in my image. And I not only posted sources, but page numbers too, so it's very easy to do your own research and form your own critique. I have nothing to hide. Critique my sources and at worst I will have to go out and find better ones (or change my opinion!). I would rather have sources that have stood up to the test of time than gamble on some enticing ones... like the "90% of reported rape is false" stat that floats around from time to time in MRA circles.
[–]fearlessducttaper12 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
My now ex-husband had sex with my body while I was asleep and I woke up towards his end as he came on me. I find it mentally traumatic because he had been doing that off and on (he admitted to me in an argument at the courthouse) and was probably how he got me pregnant twice.
I had tried to file for rape, but because we were married the cops said it didnt count.
Is it not rape?
[–]TheCatPaul11 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
That is rape.
Nope, that's rape. Is that the reason for the divorce if you don't mind me asking.
[–]fearlessducttaper8 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Yes, that was too far for me. It's had a strong impact, but I figure I'll get over it in a few years.
Just not with him.
If you still are interested in pressing charges you should contact a new lawyer, or a free support group, and look at your options. My best guess, using your post history, you are from America, so those cops have to be incredibly dump, or the law is incredibly dumb. Marriage is not a licence to have sex with a sleeping partner without prior consent.
[–]iMADEthis2post5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
That's rape indeed, unless there is some kind of understanding in the relationship that such behavior is okay. My SO and I were discussing this recently actually but along the lines of how the hell can anyone sleep through sexual intercourse, especially the initial insertion. Perhaps if drugs or alcohol or maybe even some kind of sleep dysfunction were involved we could understand.
Some people are heavy sleepers. My husband and I have both agreed that having sex when drunk/asleep/high/whatever is perfectly acceptable, and there have been many times where I've been on top of him for at least five minutes before he woke up. Sometimes he doesn't even wake up fully and doesn't remember the sex at all the next morning.
Again, we've already agreed that this is okay and in fact really fun. Without such an agreement, however, sex with a sleeping spouse (or anyone, really) is rape.
[–]iMADEthis2post1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Indeed my SO and I are of the same opinion, infact she loves the idea but I could't remain asleep personally I would wake either of us pretty quickly!
[–]fearlessducttaper2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I have an atypical sleep pattern from being homeless for such a long time.
Yeah I knew it had to be something like that or I don't think anyone could tbh.
[–]friestogo2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
because we were married the cops said it didnt count
I find this extremely difficult to believe. Unless you live in some undeveloped part of the world.
[–]clochejar3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Marital rape wasn't fully recognized as rape until 1993. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marital_rape
[–]friestogo3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Yeah, 19 years ago. I get the impression she wasn't talking about something that happened 2 decades ago.
Is it that hard to believe that some cops don't know the law as well as they should have? Or, even worse, the cops in question disagree with the marital rape laws and/or didn't want to deal with it?
Speaking for myself I find it extremely hard to believe that someone who has the faculties to post comments about it on the internet wouldn't by now have the full backing of feminist groups and the ACLU to go after such cops in the present day. One cop in Canada said "don't dress like a slut" once and it sparked international protests for years. That wasn't even a credible case of police misconduct.
In order to get the support of the ACLU or a feminist lobby, you have to actually inform them about it. She's clearly traumatized and embarrassed by it, so why would she want to let the whole damn country know what happened to her? Maybe she just wants to forget about it and move on.
She just let the whole damn country know about it. I love excuses, keep 'em coming.
Are you implying that the entire country reads /r/mensrights, and they are somehow able to assign her real life identity to a reddit username?
Edit: No, I'm implying that you're not making any sense here.
If you are concerned that this is a flagrant breach of justice, reposit at /r/feminism and ask them to do some real life activism to get this woman justice. Don't sit here and complain about how no one cares.
You're the one being irrational if you can't tell the difference between a blanket of anonymity and the having your face/story plastered all over the evening news.
Please don't sit here and complain about all the injustice in the world that we just can't do anything about because the victims just want to be left alone, even though they're speaking out, just looking for help. Give me a break. Show it to the same people who started Slutwalk for no apparent fucking reason, let's see them put their money where their mouth is and actually do something to fix some actual real life injustice against women. Maybe they can still give this victim her anonymity but this deserves a feminist protest if anything else does.
The people who started Slutwalk probably would not help women who don't want to be feminist pawns. Given that she's posting in /r/mensrights, I doubt she's parading around in feminist mobs railing against the patriarchy. I know that if I were raped by my husband, I would prefer to quietly divorce him and not draw (public) attention to myself; I certainly wouldn't contact NOW or FMF just so I could be used as the poster-girl for how horrible teh menz are because we ladies are so defenseless so let's pass moar laws!!!
I'm just going to say that you don't actually believe that this woman's story adds up in the way that you had implied, or else you'd do something. I would.
What can I do for an anonymous woman on the internet? Sure, I'd do something if I knew her, but that isn't possible.
I'm not talking about bringing her cupcakes and giving her a hug.
I personally don't believe her story that her husband admitted to rape in court and nothing was done about it. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Admissions made in family/divorce court can't be used as evidence in criminal court unless criminal charges are brought against that person, and in the case of rape that would require the victim to come forward. She tried, and the police did nothing about it.
This never happened. You are merely speculating and you're missing the point. I think you have this image of women filing for rape as if it's some sort of walk of shame that she has to do on her own with people tossing rotten tomatoes at her and telling her to turn back. This isn't the actual reality we live in.
If this woman was getting a divorce then she had a lawyer. If the husband confessed to rape right in court (WTF!?!?!?) then her lawyer, not some cop, would have informed her what her rights were and what she could do. If someone had actually prevented her from filing, then all hell would have broken loose. All I can say is that this whole entire story sounds like some crazy hallucination to me.
Fuck those cops. If you didn't consent at the time, or if you hadn't told your husband that it's okay to have sex with you when you're asleep (which is what I've done), that is rape.
Fuck anyone who thinks that a man or woman becomes their spouses fuck-toy the moment they get married.
[–]Godspiral-2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I side with the cops on that, even if its technically rape. You have every right to terminate a relationship for that reason or any other reason, but invoking the full force of the judicial system over it would be an abuse on your part.
The reason for my thinking is based on replacing "was it rape" with "was it something he deserves 10 years in jail for" which is basically the same question from the legal system's perspective.
I like this answer.
Good. Hopefully you can feel good about not resorting to abuse, and not bearing the responsibility of his extreme punishment, as a happier high road in dealing with any disappointments he may have caused you.
I drink heavily around others when it's socially acceptable and abuse otc meds when I have to be in public. I get scared when men look at me and I can't talk nicely to them when they talk to me.
I'm hoping it will pass, but my family and friends are making it worse. I give me another two years before I can turn it around. I get fantastic respite with children though. They don't understand how to really hurt others. They're safe.
I appreciate your sane response.
[–]ellecon12 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
When I was in college, I was dancing on the weekends to make money, so I had a stripper body and I'm kinda pretty too. I would have no problem talking about sex in class, and I wore sexy clothes most of the time. (Because I could before kids....boohoo....) Anyways, I went to parties and drank,got baked,etc.etc....
Not a single person ever tried to rape me during those years. There were a lot of attempted kisses and things of that ilk, but a fumbled pass isn't rape. I've made passes at people that were unwelcome but I'm not a rapist and because I'm female no one has ever called sexual harassment either.
Glad to hear you were not raped! And you are completely wrong about kids ruining your sexy-clothes days. I bet you still look rocking haha.
[–]ellecon1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Me too! I think the reasoning flaw people get caught up in is when we are told that anyone can be a violent criminal, it does not follow that everyone is. In fact, most men will not rape you or even try to rape you. Really, if you think about the hundreds of people each of us comes into contact with on a daily basis, and the number of times any of us has been raped, the percentage is very small.
Unless of course you live with a violent person/rapist. This however, is still only one person. That one person, regardless of gender, does not represent all people,obviously. So what difference does it make if the person is male or female? One man is a pretty poor sample size by which to judge ALL men, or even a large percentage of men. Or women for that matter.
I've had sex with many people in my life, and I was usually the one to approach the guy I usually knew as a friend first. I've also done things like slapped men's asses and if the genders were reversed I probably would have been charged with harassment or worse. However, we were friends and they were cool with it, and it went both ways. Why can't you joke around with people anymore?
[–][deleted]10 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
That's the best reworking that I've seen.
Hopefully the truth gets upvoted on here.
The downvote brigade is here.
[–]salient_punt8 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Holy cow, they sure don't like this one. Must mean it's a good one. I'm giving it two upvotes!
[–][deleted]3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I know! I'm watching the point count on just my comment about the DVbrigade go up and down like a yoyo! Guess the new improved infographic must have hit a nerve.
Edit: um, the two upvotes...how?
[–]salient_punt6 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I mouse click wicked hard
[–]binarypillbug-5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
...yes, that's very solid logic
What exactly is the point of the downvote brigade in /mensrights? I understand they want to shout down reason in /politics etc. but they can't actually believe the impact opinions here.
I'm also very curious about that.
[–]nowatermelonnokfc7 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
not to mention the probably extremely loosely defined rape they use in the first place
[–]123586 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
The original graphic, besides showing the lowest estimate of false accusations, implies that falsely accused people are not reported to authorities, did not have to face trial, and were not jailed.
American gender-feminists "Empower" themselves by Inflaming the public with faulty and inflammatory manufactured rape statistics. (the 2% NUMBER IS A MANUFACTURED STATISTIC). 16 year old Boys beaten to death in their sleep with baseball bats because of these "Inflammations" is a side effect.
[–]rshortman6 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Woman here...
Lies about rape are more common than actual rape. I know so many girls who lied about getting raped it's not even funny.
Did any of those girls say so openly to you, or were their stories all just too full of holes?
[–]rshortman5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Both. Also, in certain cases I witnessed what actually happened and the girl lied about it later.
hey now that statistic about 1 in 4 women being sexually assaulted is true, because sexual assault now includes things like having your ass grabbed on the dance floor
by this measure I've been sexually assaulted dozens of times, I should apply for some sort of federal assistance
[–]Coinin5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I upvoted, but I think any infographic like this should emphasise that false accusations by definition are an unquantifiable thing. If we had an absolutely foolproof method of testing the veracity of an accusation we wouldn't need trials and there would be no false accusations. The fact that any false accusations result in sentencing shows that we don't know the scale of the problem.
should emphasise that false accusations by definition are an unquantifiable thing.
Well, yes, but...so are unreported rapes, aren't they?
[–]Coinin4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Absolutely, the whole thing is guesswork. If someone says they know absolutely how many rapists go free every year, I'd like to ask them "How do you know for certain? And if you're so certain why can't this evidence be used to convict them?" If their answer is "Because patriarchy" I'm less than interested in their conspiracy theories.
[–]rockyali5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
What is your anecdotal experience with this?
I seem to know a lot of women who have been raped, and only one who went to the police about it. I know a couple who were making stuff up as well. That said, I know a number of men who were molested as kids, but not many raped as adults (at least not that they tell me about).
Just wondering how other people's experiences match up (especially since the study data seem to be pretty flawed).
Enabling women to falsely accuse of rape, is not only a stain on American law enforcement, it may be unconstitutional.
[–]rockyali1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Okay. Did you mean to reply to me? I wasn't drawing any conclusions or taking any sides, just sharing anecdotal data and asking for same.
[–]Spooman115 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
When I was 16 me and my buddy trashed several windows around our city, broke into a snack vending machine at our local rail station and stole 2 small old mopes. When we got caught he got into a juvenile shelter (did other stuff that was against the law before), my disciplinary measure was to pay everything I destroyed back + help out on a farm for 12 days. On this farm they told me (the familiy was really nice actually) that they had a 15 year old girl earlier that year (they took 4-5 teenagers each year since it got them some easy money). This girl accused her teacher of raping her, she got 7 days on the farm and didn't have to pay shit back.
boys trashing some windows and stealing mopeds punished harder than a girl guilty of false rape accusation. Any feminist I've met up til now just stfu about how unfair women are treated in our society after I told her that.
[–]MmmOnions5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Thank you. We do not live in or exist in a world that has a "Culture of Rape" and I'm tired of hearing that we do.
[–]Nitzi4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I dont understand why people would go and execute someone who has been accused of a crime, I mean we have a system, its forbidden to do that, yet people kill each other. Do they even think that's wrong?
[–]cdcox4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I usually wouldn't bother debating this but seeing as it's number 60 on /r/all
The Kanin study is shit:
"Also included in Rumney’s listing is a study by Kanin (1994), one of the very few U.S.- based studies of false allegations that is both widely referenced and criticized (Lisak, 2007; Rumney, 2006). Kanin reported that 41% of 109 consecutive rape cases investigated by the police department of a small, Midwestern city over a 9-year period were determined to be false reports. Unfortunately, Kanin provides little information about the methods used to evaluate the police department’s system for classifying cases. The study did not appear to employ a definition of a false report. Rather, Kanin asserted that a rape allegation was classified as a false report if the complainant “admitted they are false” (p. 82). Kanin recorded a case as a false report when he was notified by the police department that a case had been so classified. Kanin reported that he was given access to police files and given the opportunity to ask follow-up questions, but he provided no details about what if any questions he asked nor how he scrutinized the police department’s decision-making process. He apparently used no systematized method for analyzing the police reports (e.g., a coding system) or any system of independent raters or coders to guard against bias. These are particularly important limitations, given that the police department he was studying used procedures that are now specifically discouraged by the U.S. Department of Justice and denounced by the IACP. According to Kanin, the police department always made a “serious offer” to polygraph the alleged victim, a procedure that is now widely viewed as an intimidation tactic that frequently persuades already hesitant rape victims to drop out of the criminal justice process. This procedure is so frowned upon that the 2005 reauthorization of the Violence Against Women Act stipulates that any state in which agencies use the polygraph on sexual assault victims jeopardizes its eligibility for certain grants, and a number of states have passed laws prohibiting the use of the polygraph to determine whether charges should be filed in a sexual assault case (IACP, 2005b)." Lisak et al 2010
Most other studies where they actually looked into cases instead of trusting some overarching standard reveal around 2-10%. Lisak et al 2010 has a nice discussion and analysis of all studies up to 2010. I'm not saying this study is definitive, but the literature is FAR more mixed than this presents.
Anyone can find a study saying just about anything. Citing a single study or even a handful of studies that don't include a proper literature review is a good way to end up with bad information. I don't care very much as this isn't my area, but citing three pieces of literature and claiming you 'refuted' the original is hardly fair. Indeed I'm not claiming to refute you with my one article which reviews the literature and analyzes several studies, I'm just pointing out your fact is not necessarily true.
The Kanin source was already discussed in another comment here. You should read the discussion!
"...a procedure that is now widely viewed as an intimidation tactic that frequently persuades already hesitant rape victims to drop out of the criminal justice process."
Source that this process (lie detector) makes women with real (proven) rape cases drop their charges please. For all we know, 100% of all the women who dropped their charges upon being asked if they would like to do a polygraph could have dropped their charges because they were lying and did not want to get caught.
[–]electriophile3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
There is a reason why it's illegal to have your employees, for example, undergo a lie detector test. It's seen as an intimidation tactic, and even if the person has nothing to hide, the validity of polygraph tests is highly debated. Contrary to popular belief, there is no universal response when telling a lie. In fact, polygraph tests have very little support from the scientific community. Because of this, in 1998 polygraph results were ruled by the Supreme Court to be inadmissible evidence in a court of law.
Given the fact that polygraph tests have a poor reputation, someone being tested could be terrified that the test will yield a false positive, which (ironically enough) would elicit a physical response that the machine would detect as indicating a lie. NO ONE wants to take a lie detector test.
The wikipedia article about the validity of the polygraph test cites many more very interesting sources, which I recommend reading.
Its true that lie detectors are voodoo, but they were used properly in the Kanin study. A lie detector test was simply an intermission in the investigation, and used to get the complainant to admit to her lie. If I say I know you are lying, and your response is that I am right, its because you are a liar. Not because you are tired of the process.
At any rate, Kanin also discusses in his report a study covering 2 other police departments where no polygraphs were used, and a 50% false count was obtained using the same criteria of false includes only complainants that admit it was false.
The fact is, people turn down lie detector tests because they're afraid of false positives. Would I be willing to take a polygraph and be asked if I've cheated on my husband or stolen from my parents? Fuck no! I've done neither of those things, but like hell if I'm going to risk a false positive that could plant doubt and suspicion into the minds of my loved ones.
The Kanin report does shed an interesting light and supports the common idea that more than 2% of rape reports are false, however he gets his 50% statistic based off of reports that were classed by the police as false or unfounded; that doesn't necessarily mean the accusers recanted. Furthermore, just because an accuser recants doesn't mean it was false, they might not want to endure the trauma and interrogation of a trial, or be forced to relive their experience in front of a jury. To them, a conviction of their alleged rapist isn't worth it. Another possibility is that the alleged victim was telling the truth, but they misidentified their attacker (this happens fairly frequently, but it's not because of malicious intent, it's more due to judicial incompetence). And because most rapes are committed by someone the victim knows, the accuser may be subject to threats from the alleged rapist or his family, causing them to recant out of fear.
Don't get me wrong, I think false accusations are absolutely a problem, which is something you'd never hear a feminist say. However I think that a more realistic number would be around 10-15%. That's 1 in 10 -- that's HUGE. 10% being deliberately false accusations is an incredibly enormous number, and nothing to roll your eyes at or dismiss. I'm even willing the add misidentification to the mix, which would bring the percentage notably higher. But to say that 1-in-2 rape accusations are lies? That's pretty extreme.
he gets his 50% statistic based off of reports that were classed by the police as false or unfounded
Not true at all. Every false classification is false if and only if the complainant says it was false.
10% being deliberately false accusations is an incredibly enormous number, and nothing to roll your eyes at or dismiss.
While that number would indeed be huge, as you say, the real number is closer to 50%..
wikipedia says there are 29/100k rapes in the US, and only 1.4/100k in Canada per year (surprising difference because Canada is ruled by feminazis).
For there to be a 50% false rate, you only need 29 crazy US bitches (per 100k people) to either become extremely furious and use a rape accusation as a weapon, or prefer that the world think she has a good excuse for a pregnancy, drunken whoreness, missed curfew, poor school grades, or give her support and aid.
You shouldn't think of it in terms of 50% is a huge number. You should think of it as 29/100k or 1.5/100k (CDN) as the number, and that shouldn't seem high considering that an estimate that 1/100 women are crazy bitches is not high (with that estimate each crazy bitch making one false rape accusation every 30 years would get to 30/100k false rape claims per year).
Rape claims are mostly made by women 16-22. Reasons include a higher rate of promiscuity at that age, stupid rules against that promiscuity, immaturity indistinguishable from crazy bitchness, very wide social circle and importance of reputation and social esteem, innexperience with social/public situations and sexual attractiveness.
While many of these factors enhance the chance of rape, they also enhances the believability of rape, and the opportunity and lack of moral founding for using a rape accusation for manipulative purposes.
Again, the accuser recanting does not necessarily mean it was a lie. I outlined multiple scenarios above where an alleged victim might recant.
It's probably due to the fact that Canada is significantly more progressive than the United States, and far less religious, which means there isn't such a large stigma surrounding sex. Women there would be much less likely to be ashamed of a natural act, nor would there be as much reason to lie to save face since there isn't fear of being judged or ostracized. The prevalence of feminism may indeed have an effect on what gets reported as a rape, but I think it has more to do with sexual attitudes.
You outline a very good reason why many men (especially in /r/mensrights) shouldn't live their lives riddles with paranoia regarding the opposite sex. I've seen many men here swear off women forever because they're afraid of the (remote) chance that they'll get falsely accused. However, the idea of treating half of alleged rape victim like crazy lying bitches makes me deeply uncomfortable, especially since I know several rape victims (including my little brother). Plus, a sweeping shadow of doubt over female victims would also cast the same doubt over male victims who gather the courage to come forward and report their assailant. It would be far simpler to just raise the standard of evidence for rape to that of any other crime (which would require more than one person's word), and to keep the identities of the accuser and the accused a secret at least until an official charge is made.
the accuser recanting does not necessarily mean it was a lie. I outlined multiple scenarios above where an alleged victim might recant.
You listed a bunch of scenarios that might cause various misinterpretations of recantations, but they simply had nothing to do with the Kanin study, which controlled very specifically what was counted as false vs. not false.
You had some interesting views on Canada vs. US.
the idea of treating half of alleged rape victim like crazy lying bitches makes me deeply uncomfortable
I'd say your difficulty stems from wanting to treat victims and FRA as the same group of people. Of course, when we deal with complainants, it is one group of people, but whatever number of real rape victims you imagine exists, it doesn't affect the number of FRAs that exist.
a sweeping shadow of doubt over female victims
In my view, recognizing the prevalence of FRA is a critical step in significantly reducing the number of FRAs. The presumed belief of rape claims is what allows false claims to be effective manipulation tools. If feminism took that position instead of the denial of FRA, then, for me, it could cease classification as a hate group intent on perverting society and justice.
It would be far simpler to just raise the standard of evidence for rape to that of any other crime
Very sensible and effective. I think also, lower penalties, especially for incidents where no physical injury or threat thereof is made. The purpose would be to lower the stakes. As nazi-tarded as Sweden is on rape, they actually have lower sentences and wider range of offenses. An easier system to obtain restraining orders for no reason would be more appropriate than high stakes unresolvable sexual assault accusations.
wat. Freedom of the press is a thing, even when the press is printing bullshit about Abraham Lincoln being visited by emissaries from deep space after being resurrected by a passing Old One from Kadath in the Cold Wastes.
Everything is publishable in white Gender-feminist controlled media....accept the truth!!
[–]N64Overclocked4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Thank you for this. When they say things at assemblies in HS and college to the effect of "It's likely that one of the guys sitting around you is going to rape you" it pisses me off to no end. I'm certainly not capable of raping anybody, and I know that all of my male friends are the same way (granted some of them are so afraid of girls they run away when a cute one says "hi"). I'm sick of scare tactics that serve to put one gender down.
[–]JockeVXO4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
The three main problems with the original chart are:
It uses flawed statistics and poses them as axioms.
It fails to recognise female perpetration (they didn't even add a low female-perpetration prevalence, the perception of which comes from a sexist definition of rape).
It assumes all those alleged rapes (reported or unreported) were true unless they were proven to have been malicious lies. It is as accurate to say that only those jailed were guilty rapists (even though not even that is true, there are many falsely imprisoned) and the rest are false accusations. However, they don't even entertain this possibility and instead push their own dogmatic agenda as the truth regarding rape perpetration and prosecution.
They even refuse to consider that any of the cases where the accused was found not guilty, but the accuser was not found to have made a malicious false accusation, may have been actually innocent. It is sickening really. Guilty until proven innocent, and even then you're still guilty, you just got away with it...
[–]washburncrosby3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Feminism should have taught Women that being strong means being strong enough to not falsely accuse someone of rape to get what they want. Instead it has only taught many Women to act like self centered douchebags and use their emotional state to corner people into doing what they want. False accusations? You bet. Telling lies while crying is a great way to get what you want. It's a huge issue that most Women don't want to talk about and most men while perceiving emotional changes — often do not see the manipulation behind them. Is this Women in general? Not yet, but the younger generations of American women have no idea what it was like [before feminism, before the sexual revolution] and take everything for granted all while acting like manipulative shitty frat boys with emotional problems.
While incidents of vindictive false-rape accusations certainly exist, I think they are rare and frequently easily disproved (not that the damage isn't often done before the disprovinization occurs).
The real problem with false-rape accusations, and the problem with any study that attempts to determine a percentage of rape accusations that are false, is that frequently people honestly believe that they were raped when then alleged perpetrator honestly believes that no rape occurred.
To the dismay of this subreddit, I'll use traditional gender stereotypes, but it is the classic example of a guy & and a girl being together, drinking and the guy thinking he's getting "signals". They end up having sex and the next day, the two have a completely different perspective on what took place. Or, even worse, the girl is sitting around her dorm room 2 months later telling her friends about the night and how she feels bad about it, and they all start telling her that she was raped.
Until we get to a point where we all have a clear-cut understanding and agreement of what constitutes a rape and what doesn't, there are always going to be accusations that are labeled as false accusations. As men, the best thing we can do is protect ourselves as best we can by (a) not having sex with someone who has been drinking, (b) only having sex with people we trust (and are likely in a long-term relationship with) and (c) getting signed permission slips from our partners before engaging in sexual activity and clearly defining the sexual activity that is being consented to, as well as the necessary method to withdrawn that previously written consent.
[–]shadowbanned64 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
how can you easily disprove a false rape accusation, if her word is enough to convict a man?
Mainly dumb women's false accusations get disproved.
If an accuser plans it intelligently, it is very hard to prove one's innocence beyond reasonable doubt.
While incidents of vindictive false-rape accusations certainly exist, I think they are rare and frequently easily disproved
I was referring to situation where the falseness of the accusation seems quite obvious: The two never even had sex, much less non-consensual sex. The guy has texts, etc. from the woman (or vice-versa), saying "if you don't do X, I'm going to tell people you raped me". The victim confides in friends that she consented to the sexual activity.
In cases like those, the woman's word alone is not enough to convict a man. And, depending upon the timing and comprehensiveness of the police work, may not even be enough to arrest, charge or prosecute a man.
I believe that such incidents happen. It is a real problem, in that we should not tolerate any social coddling and presumed sympathy that harms the reputation of men, and should in fact encourage responsibility in women to indicate non-consent, and avoid their own confusions on the matter.
It is not THE real problem, in that the outcomes of "confused sex" rarely are very serious, beyond a compromised relationship. Police investigations and arrests are very serious, and THE real problem. Those police departments and officers and prosecutors that treat regretted tipsy sex as serious, are obviously also a real problem, but it is a real problem only in some jurisdictions.
I think we're both saying the same thing in different ways. I'm saying that the real problem is that what is, and isn't rape, is poorly defined. When you say
it (treating regretted tipsy sex as serious) is a real problem only in some jurisdictions.
it just confirms that what is, and what isn't rape, is poorly defined. What may be considered rape in one jurisdiction, may not be considered rape in another jurisdiction. Even worse, depending upon the "luck of the draw" as to what police officer is first to respond, what prosecutor is assigned to the case and what the make up of the jury is will likely result in differing interpretations.
Most people have a clear understanding of most crimes - theft, murder, assault - and most people's understanding of those crimes is reasonably consistent (i.e., if 100 people witness one of those crimes, most - and possibly all - are going to agree that it was a crime). With rape, you've got everything from extreme feminists who think that basically any sex with a man is rape, and extremists in the other direction that think that unless a woman is beaten bloody, she couldn't have possibly been raped. Then you have people of varying levels of rationability everywhere in between.
[–]JamesRyder1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Well it's been the goal of feminism for decades to paint rape as one of the worst things that can happen to a human being. The irony is most people will recover from a rape without permanent physical injury.
Compare that to losing a limb, receiving brain damage, blindness, getting shot, having a family member killed - all of these things are more traumatic and have more long lasting consequences than what most people would consider as rape.
I personally have had the odd bad sexual experience which would fit the feminist criteria of rape (I'm sure most people have). However, I really feel the same way about it as if I'd wasted 50 bucks in a casino. The problem lies in that pretty much any type of sexual assault is classed as rape.
There is no such thing as a "scale of rape", but there should be. Getting forcefully penetrated with an iron bar and dying from organ failure like that Indian girl is a lot different from having someone fuck you whilst you're almost passed out, and then the stereotypical bad encounter where you don't really want to but you say yes because it's easier and less hassle that saying no. Then there's statutory rape, which gives 17 year old boys permanent sexual offender status for sleeping with their 16 year old girlfriend, even though it might be actually be legal in a neighbouring state.
[–]shadowbanned61 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]apotshot3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Trigger warning: sources, reality.
Can you provide the source for the 2nd picture of the 16yo geaten beat up? I can't find anything on him on google. I want to share that story with some people.
Thanks in advance.
You bet!
http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scotsol/homepage/news/article4671526.ece
That's awful. That girl is a cunt.
So is the White Knight 41 year old man who savaged a 16 year old boy. This is one of the reasons why the fake "only 2%" statistics need to be challenged, so that people will think twice before they do this sort of thing.
I saw it here on r/mensrights
makes search easier ........
did you check the link written on the bottom of the graphic????
Thank you for doing the leg work and actually posting studies. I get exhausted and simply dismiss anything and anyone whom uses the phrases, "researchers state", "studies indicate", etc... Without linking or citing any real research!!! Bravo my friend. Bravo!
[–]ju11ce3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Very relevant: Joe Rogan and the Kilstein delusion
[–]geomn133 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Thanks for fixing this OP. I knew the original graphic was horribly wrong and misleading, didn't know there were so many good sources to prove it though!
[–]tandem73 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I'm curious what you think of this article posted by Slate, on the same subject? It has a somewhat different conclusion, although it agrees that the infographic is misleading.
[–]automatedresponse3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I'm glad men's rights is around. a few years ago I might have seen that initial graphic and not blinked an eye, but now I know it's wildly skewed to appease anti-male interests.
It's sad that in a country like ours, that by most accounts will protect women and is safer than the rest of the world when it comes to sexual abuse, that some people will seek to use our laws to circumvent that society and punish men who don't do what they want.
[–]ReverendHaze3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I already examined some of the sources for the original infographic in another thread, so I'll just copy the text from my other response here.
I'll bite. The numbers and methods used to generate this graph are dishonest at best.
For starters, the NDAA report on the prevalence of false rape claims is questionable.
The only US study cited placed the number at 7%.
The other studies fall into two categories: Studies that placed the number as high as 10% and studies that placed the number as low as 2%. The higher studies are either given brief statements or discredited, with the 10% statistic being discredited because it was carried out by the police. The lower studies, on the other hand, are lauded for their use of "quantitative and qualitative methods" without going into substantive detail about why the methods employed by these studies are better than the equally "quantitative and qualitative" methods employed by the other studies.
The final conclusion is that the number lies somewhere between 2% (about equal to the lowest study) and 8% (below two of the studies cited, including one against which no argument is made). Even accepting this conclusion wholeheartedly, the infographic assumes the lowest number available, 2% when the midpoint of the numbers provided would have been two and a half times that.
Moving on to the other numbers, the reporting rates are pulled from a UK paper that states, and I quote, "It is currently estimated that between 75 and 95 per cent of rape crimes are never reported to the police." The paper offers no further information about how the information for this claim was generated, no further support for these numbers and never mentions them again in the entirety of the document. The creators of the infographic once again chose the extreme rather than the midpoint and went with 10%. This is not quite as dishonest as the earlier choice, but once again paints the picture that the creators wished to paint.
Moreover, since the cited numbers are unsubstantiated, the use of those numbers makes the numbers used by Enliven unsubstantiated. Additionally, the very way the graph is subdivided plays up rapists who got off while downplaying false accusations that never went to trial. If a case went to trial and a confession of a false accusation was later given, that case, by the methodology of the studies cited by the NDAA, would be a false accusation and would presumably be moved from the "faced trial" section to the "falsely accused" section, leading to the conclusion that less of the accused face trial than crime statistics would otherwise indicate. The same goes for reported.
EDIT: I had forgotten to add the following paragraph and have placed it in 23 minutes after the original posting prior to any responses:
Additionally, what are we to assume of those who are reported and not tried or tried but not convicted? No explicit statement is made and no rationale offered, but the color scheme of the graph is chosen in a very particular manner. As a case gets closer to conviction, it trends from beige towards red. Those in the darker groups (outside of falsely accused) are closer to conviction. Once again, no explicit point is made, but the implication is clear.
There is not a single number on this chart that was not in some way cherrypicked or manipulated to make the point that Enliven wanted to make over the numbers that the statistics would have supported. As I stated above, it's at best dishonest and better characterized as Machiavellian.
While the studies cited by the Enliven image leave much to be desired, the numbers cited in the above picture leave room for criticism as well. Much of the difference comes from different perspectives on the definition of what constitutes rape, as NDAA is likely to choose a very wide-reaching definition, while the military is likely to choose a much more restrictive definition. Additionally, the studies cited in the image are 18+ years old. The infographic is seriously biased, but countering dishonest information with equally extreme examples doesn't encourage honest discussion.
[–]seraph853 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I have a little personal insight on the rape statistic from the military specifically the air force. Rape in the military has given the military a bad image to women wanting to join. My ex-wife was raped while we were serving in the Air Force. They essentially made her recant her claim and called her a liar and did a number on her mental health.
While I support this subreddit and this post in general take the military statistic with a grain of salt. The military tries its best to hide/reduce rape claims without a thought of the ramifications on individuals and families. Also the punishment for the guy you raped my ex he lost a stripe that'll learn him.
[–]SirDerpingtonThe3rd3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Shit, by the SRS definition of rape, we're all rapists if we've had sex before. "You mean she had one beer before willfully engaging in sex with you? RAPIST!" I'm sorry, I forgot people over the age of 18 aren't responsible for their own actions, oh wait, they are.
Rape is forced sex in which one participant is completely unwilling and is done so as a demeaning act. That is complete sociopath behavior and I don't buy that anywhere near the reported numbers of rapists can be both sociopaths AND elicit pleasure from forcing sex on an unwilling participant.
I wouldn't be surprised to find out that this rape fearmongering is just a way for some socially conservative group to inhibit women sexually since increasing numbers of people don't buy into religion anymore.
[–]throw_me_away_baby2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
This is brill. (just commenting so I have it saved in case I have to use it in the future)
[–]surilamin8 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
you can also hit the 'save' button, right under the story title
[–]throw_me_away_baby1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
well. Fancy that. Thanks <(￣︶￣)>
What is that icon at the end supposed to be? All I'm seeing is breasts.
[–]MockingDead3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Kirby giving a hug (>'.')> Right back atcha!
[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I have no idea how many accusations made are false. And frankly it doesn't matter as long as it is N > 0.
I do have a problem with the original graphic because it A) it basically makes up the number of actual rapes that occurred but weren't reported as if that were a knowable stat and B) it makes no distinction between those who were reported and failed to go to conviction for legitimate reasons (ie no evidence a rape occurred) versus illegitimate reasons (the police chief laughing at your accusations, doing the secret sign of the patriarchy then tearing up you charges and sending the accused male the customary fruit basket).
So it's outrage factor is based on the assumption that all accusations made that aren't proven fraudulent (without confession a damn near impossible task) are then legitimate.
I had a quick look at the Kanin study. It appears that Professor Kanin himself did not find a high percentage of the accusations were false, but rather relied on the number of accusations thrown out by detectives.
This itself would not be troubling if we assumed detectives were good judges of which cases were 'false' and which merely appeared false because of eg shaky victim testimony or unwillingness to submit for cross-examination, but this appears not to be the case; several other studies re-examining case data with a panel of experts have found far lower incidence:
O'Reily (1984)
Krasner, Meyer and Carol (1976)
Oregon Attorney General's Office (2006)
Kelly, Lovett and Regan (2005)
Do you have any explanation for why repeating Kanin's study using experts rather than non-experts should reduce the reported incidence of false accusation so dramatically? The only explanation I can think of is that Kanin inadvertently over-reports the false accusations because he is using a methodologically unsound criteria that sexual abuse experts would not, but I would enjoy a discussion of the methodology
User Godspiral has brought up some good points on Kanin. You should read: http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/166d02/the_truth_about_false_rape_accusation/c7t9ehh
The panel of experts approach was used in the McDowell study to "bump up" the total false rate to 60%.
It boils down to the skill of the investigator. Getting liars to admit lies is a difficult, very high skill cap, task, and no matter how good you are, you will not discover all of them.
I unfortunately don't know any of the studies you listed. I can tell you about the shameful Lisak study that is on the wikipedia page. He found an 8% false rate, but not only did the investigation protocol show extreme defeference and sensitivity to complainants, but there also had to be additional evidence above the victim's recantation in order to classify it as rape. Lisak's protocol thus intentionally handicaps any possibility of discovering liars, and therefore, is no wonder that he finds very few of them.
I'd assume that all variance in results come directly from variation in investigator skill, use of all available means to uncover liars, and a political outlook not invested in socially approved lies.
[–]falling2fast2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I really want to post this on my FB, but a few of my friends have already posted the original image and I KNOW I'll catch a firestorm of crap if I try.
Downside of FB is it'll resize this image small enough that no one will be able to read it anyway lol. By the time FB downsizes it and re-compresses it it'll likely look like a picture of a cute cat.
[–]JustOffendedYou2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
to say nothing of the apparent 100% male rapists. or of serial rapists who commit the vast majority of offenses.
[–]Raikumo2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Coolio. I'm going to download this one. I really disliked the one posted on /r/TwoXChromosomes. At least I got more upvotes than downvotes for complaining about it.
[–]CryAJagOnMe2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I am very glad this was posted. Although statistics are often unreliable and are meant to be taken with a grain of salt, this one was just absurd. It would be so difficult (impossible) to obtain anything even vaguely resembling the true numbers, that making a statistics chart out of this is in itself wrong. The OP with those numbers is misleading and coercive, and helps no one. It enrages the people who bought it, because they're mad about the fact that everyone is getting raped, and it's almost as upsetting for people who can see that there is no method to obtain any accurate information on this subject. With that said, I also don't agree with the new numbers written either, because it will only cause other people to spout the same argument I just proposed, but against mens rights activists. There is no way to come up with the proper numbers, so I think numbers shouldn't even be used concerning this subject.
[–]AllenJacoby2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
TwoXChromosomes sided with you guys on this one.
http://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/166s7g/amanda_marcotte_the_saddest_graph_youll_see_today/
Their title: Amanda Marcotte: "The saddest graph you'll see today" overstates false accusations, number of rapists, and reported rapes.
The comments section is full of hate for the graph.
Just saying.
[–]Bla341122 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I think many of the claims you make are extreme and outlandish. Especially those pictures of people who have gotten hurt unjustly provide more shock value than actually valuable commentary.
None of the complaints I would've made are on there.
[–]Soho_Joe1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I think when the '1 in 4 women face rape or sexual assault' stat is used, it is not only referring to forced penetration. It likely also refers to date rape, unwanted sexual contact, and sex under the influence (since in these cases, substances impair one's ability to give informed consent).
Note: I am not saying that using substances doesn't also impair men's ability to give informed consent, nor am I saying that rape by forcible penetration doesn't also happen to men. I'm just advising that we use a little charity when interpreting that statistic. Lack of consensus surrounding the definition of rape probably accounts for the variability between rape stats in OP's post.
[–]Godspiral9 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
and sex under the influence (since in these cases, substances impair one's ability to give informed consent).
The history of the 1 in 4 claim is pretty fascinating. They asked a women's studies class if they felt they had been raped. 1 in 16 said yes. But they also asked a bunch of other questions including "Have you ever had sex with someone you didn't want to because of drugs or alcohol", and the researchers counted everyone who said yes to such questions as having been raped.
In case its not obvious, the question does not imply an impaired ability to give consent. It covers quasi-prostitution and beer goggles. Further the entire context of being a sample of women's studies students necessarily oversamples hysterical paranoid misandrists with distorted views of their own experiences.
I had sex the other day and didn't really want to. I was raped. /s
Both Christina Hoff Sommers and Girl Writes What have deconstructed that statistic and no amount of charity will cover up the fact that it is pure bullshit. For example it includes women who didn't think they were raped (and went on to date their so-called "rapist") but the researcher decided it was.
[–]bomdiggabom1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
It's funny how many messages I've recieved saying "get over it" and I'm assuming you're all guys. Guys who have not woken up to a dick in your ass and a hand on your mouth. Cute.
I am a male. When I was 13, I was raped by two 14 year old girls, at the same time, for over an hour. I got over it. I find rape jokes funny, because I got over it. Many others, boys, girls, men, women, are in the same position as me. We got over it. You have a problem, and only you can fix it. Get over it. Get over yourself. Stop the pity-party.
I managed to wake up in time to throw my attempted rapist out of my room before she could get on top of me. Some guys aren't so lucky, and when they aren't they are on the hook for child support.
People are responding negatively to your initial post because you came in frothing at the mouth telling people not to discuss false rape accusations because it leads to people doubting real victims. Your rage is misplaced though. You shouldn't be mad at the people talking about the wrong that are done, you should be furious at the people making these false claims because it is their actions that lead people to doubt real victims.
I'm really sorry for your experience, I can only imagine how I would have felt had I not woken up when I did. You should be furious when you see this infographic. But not at the person who made it, but at the people who made it necessary.
[–]occupythekitchen1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
What's the chart the picture and graph are superimposed on? i plan on using this graph soon and was wondering what exactly it's portraying....
http://theenlivenproject.com/the-truth-about-false-accusation/
[–]xixoxixa1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
You should cross post this to 2X - see how they react over there.
It sounds like there are major problems with the Kanin study:
Kanin, Lisak writes, took his data from a police department whose investigation procedures are condemned by the U.S. Justice Department and the International Association of Chiefs of Police. These procedures include the almost universal[10] threat, in this department, of polygraph testing of complainants, which is viewed as a tactic of intimidation that leads victims to avoid the justice process[11] and which, Lisak says, is "based on the misperception that a significant percentage of sexual assault reports are false."[10] The police department's "biases...were then echoed in Kanin’s unchallenged reporting of their findings."[10]
From wiki.
TL;DR The police force was notorious for intimidating accusers into withdrawing their allegations.
[–]Arby011 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Lisak's criticisms of the Kanin study are significantly address by dugone in another comment, you should read that:
http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/166d02/the_truth_about_false_rape_accusation/c7te6bm
[–]RomeFlower1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I would really like to hear a comment from a feminist about this.
[–]frorge1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
that picture on the left, what is it showing?
[–]billybishop42421 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
this is the best infographic! ever.
[–]ProjectOXCART1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
This is an excellent point and I'm really glad it's cited so well.
Boys getting beaten to death in their sleep with baseball bats over false rape accusations, are a direct results of years of Gender-feminists Inflaming the public with rape hysteria, and manufactured inflammatory statistics.
[–]subjectiveoco1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Anybody who has actually read the Kanin report knows his study is vastly inadequate to make such a general statement about false rapes.
His study only looked at 109 cases of rape. His sample size was limited to white, poor, poorly educated, mid-western women all living in one town. The town is unidentified in the paper so it's impossible for other scholars to verify his work. Regardless if it's accurate or not, that kind of mistake would be unacceptable in any study in any field, ever.
He also mentions himself that his study cannot be used to generalize false rapes in other populations or demographics- read the conclusion. In the conclusion he says nearly half of the false rape reports were due to institutional/cultural barriers to contraception and abortion. Most of the women who reported false rapes did so out of desperation and to make it more likely for health professionals to give them abortions. Kanin concludes by saying if: "Rather, something biological, legal, and cultural would seem to make false rape allegations inevitable. If rape were a commonplace victimization experience of men, if men could experience the anxiety of possible pregnancy from illicit affairs, if men had a cultural base that would support their confidence in using rape accusations punitively, and if men could feel secure that victimization could elicit attention and sympathy, then men also would be making false rape accusations."
This is a scholar who is very sympathetic to the plight of women. Please read your sources before you make them into anthems for the MRM.
Thank you for doing this. I was pretty annoyed when I saw the original posted on Reddit the other day.
[–]oETFo0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Okay, so I'm confused. Can someone explain (in plain English, I'm not too bright) What is right/wrong with this graphic?
[–]ch4os1337-1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I never do this, and it feels bad doing it but.
Upvoted for truth.
[–]salient_punt-1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I always like the appeal to emotions when discussing feminisms. People who are susceptible to feminist propoganda generally are unable to process reason and logic, and therefore the emotional angle becomes the most effective tool.
The emotional angle is the most effective tool when discussing anything. Even what brand of Cola is best!
[–]robe_and_slippies-1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
These look like the crazed scrawlings of a serial killer. You guys need to indoctrinate some graphic designers.
[–]Kampane-1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
One problem with this chart is that it makes people think the system doesn't punish rapists. That subtly encourages more rape, and it encourages vigilante violence against accused rapists. That's evil.
[–]trollwnb-2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Feminist need to take the red pill, or continue to live in fantasy land....
[–][deleted]-2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
http://www.awolau.org/2010/04/05/myth-busters-false-rape-reports/
http://www.amptoons.com/blog/2009/04/15/eugene-kanins-study-of-false-rape-reports/
Your link/argument is wrong. There is nothing wrong with Kanin's methodology. In the 41% of rape cases he read, the women admitted to lying to police about the rape. BTW Kanin himself was a very prominent feminist, read his biography on any website of your liking. It's funny when feminists like his research they rant and rave about how amazing of a man he is. And then when he releases research that sheds light on the false rape accusation epidemic in America, those same feminists now try to discredit him. Funny!
Okay, I really can't deal with people who can't accept facts. Search this guy, 95% of the links out there find serious issue with his methodology, research, conclusions, etc.
[–]C1yde-4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Went home with a ugly guy? Better report a rape...
[–]chadratic-5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I keep looking for an al jazeera or mumbai times watermark on this...
[–]JustOffendedYou-5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I'd like to see a similar graphic with little female symbols. Same size and everything, except the categories would change: 'Rapists' changed to 'Women getting what they want'. 'Reported' changed to 'Laughed in my face.' 'Faced trial' changed to 'Told me I liked it' and 'Jailed' (which is of course an empty category) changed to 'Jailed? For what?' The falsely accused category can be left with male symbols and as is. Because fuck men that's why.
[–]canadijen-6 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Two pictures of beaten boys. I bet we could find hundreds of pictures of raped women and men. This has nothing to do with rape, it could fall under bullying. Those boys were victims of bullying, not victims of rape, and this does nothing to help any cause.
Actually one picture was of a murdered boy, he was not beaten. Some girl falsely accused him of rape, and then he was violently stabbed to death because of it.
I am not even sure what argument, or statement, you are trying to make?
"Those boys were victims of bullying, not victims of rape, and this does nothing to help any cause."
They were actually the victims of an assault, and in the other case, a victim of murder. I am not sure why you are mad they are not the victims of rape. Did you want them to be raped before they were beaten to near-death, or stabbed to death?
And this helps my cause, which is to see women who falsely accuse anyone of rape, or sexual assault, or really any crime, go to prison where they belong. And I will live to see the day where they do go to prison, and hopefully it is for a very long time.
I find it odd that you are against women who lie to get men sent to prison for their own personal gain, get sent to prison themselves for doing it! You do not contain logic in your thoughts.
[–]canadijen-9 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I'm not mad, or against anything, i simply do not understand your need to bring real rapists, into an infographic about false accusations. They are two separate issues. you are concerned about the miscarriage of justice, in that women have in these occasions, made false accusations, and have not been jailed. In any of these instances, was the accuser the perpetrator of the assault? Or was it some other third part trying to be the hero? Did said here act on free will? Or are you saying that "because she said she was raped," should be added to the definition of duress? Or just that woman who tell lies should go to jail? What would the limitations be? If 8 year old girls lie, should we jail them? What about hormonal, moody, downright crazy girls? This is where I'm going with bullying- it would be the only charge that might stick. Slander? The fact that a woman falsely accused a man (I'm not saying its right) of rape, has nothing to do with people who are actually raped. What is the point of this post?? Women are manipulative bitches and their rumors can become so out of control that men will actually beat or murder each other? That we shouldn't beat each other based on a crazy woman's word?? No kidding. That women shouldnt be insane liars? Why do we need Iump assault victims in with rapists? Does this honor their death? "Oh you didn't rape someone so you can be the poster child for false accusations?" What is this post advocating for? Don't trust women? Don't beat rapists in case they're falsely accused? Don't worry, rape her, she won't report it anyways? I just don't see any point or good coming from it.
1) Why do we need Iump assault victims in with rapists?
Iump? Assuming typo! Feminists and mainstream media downplay false accusations by both minimizing the actual numbers, and by downplaying the disastrous effects it has on the falsely accused. I am countering both with my image.
2) Does this honor their death?
No.
3) What is this post advocating for?
People need to realize how large of a problem false rape accusations are.
4) Don't beat rapists in case they're falsely accused?
Exactly. Vigilante justice is not right. EVER.
5) Don't worry, rape her, she won't report it anyways?
Do you really think people who are anti-false accusation are pro-rape? Logically speaking, do I need to be pro-rape in order to be anti-false accuser? Of course not. I am anti-false accuser and anti-rape. Both are a problem that society needs to fix, fast.
[–]canadijen-1 point 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
So you're trying to bring awareness to false accusations? And you're trying to say vigilante justice is not the answer? Ok. Fair enough. But you only answered a few of my questions. Did the perpetrator of the assault and the murder act under free will? Did the accuser demand/order/pay for the assault/murder? Would that then not constitute conspiracy and be tried that way? If we were to jail false accusers, are we only talking about accusers of rape? What about accusations of theft or physical abuse? Children of trauma often make false allegations of sexual abuse, should we also incarcerate them? Or just any person who lies about anything, which results in another human being committing vigilante justice? Do you take into account teenagers who will say anything to get attention, especially from members of the opposite sex? All I'm saying, is that your beef seems to be totally ignorant of mental health, adolescence, and that the perpetrators acted of free will. If there was a conspiracy to ruin an accuse rapists life, then absolutely conspiracy to defame or slander or what have you. Those charges are already law. The idea that we should make a law that says any false accusation should land a woman in jail is absurd, because like your studies say, so many suspected rapes are unfounded or unconfirmed. So just because a person who was taped was too embarrassed and ashamed for three weeks to go to the police, and now there is no evidence, she/he should go to jail for ever speaking up? If you can't prove it don't even speak it?
1) Did the perpetrator of the assault and the murder act under free will? Yes
2) Did the accuser demand/order/pay for the assault/murder? No
3) If we were to jail false accusers, are we only talking about accusers of rape? What about accusations of theft or physical abuse?
"We" already jail false accusers, of every crime. It differs, but usually at minimum is called something along the lines of "filing a false police report" or "attempting to pervert the course of justice". In cases of women falsely accusing men of rape, they are almost never charged, or even fined! Figure that one out.
4) Children of trauma often make false allegations of sexual abuse, should we also incarcerate them?
That's up to the judge & jury to decide on the specifics of the case. Though I doubt we'll ever see a kid go to jail for lying. Usually the parents/guardians would be investigated to see if they were put up to the lie. For example, in divorce cases women will tell their children to falsely accuse daddy of rape/paedophilia so they can win court custody and child support payments.
http://register-her.com/index.php?title=Victoria_Haigh_--_False_Accuser_of_Child_Abuse
http://register-her.com/index.php?title=Courtnie_Cutler_--_False_Accuser_of_Child_Abuse
5ish) So just because a person who was taped was too embarrassed and ashamed for three weeks to go to the police, and now there is no evidence, she/he should go to jail for ever speaking up? If you can't prove it don't even speak it?
You are confusing False Accusations with Non-Proven Accusations. A False Accusation is one PROVEN to be false. As in, their is solid concrete 100% evidence a lie was told to police officers for malicious intent. Yes, all females who make False Accusations or False Reports should go to prison. It's already in the law. I need this law to actually be enforced, because currently it is not.
You really need to read this: http://www.cotwa.info/2012/06/bygones-be-bygones-unspeakable.html
[–]canadijen0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
The 'bygones be bygones' article was a great read. I really felt that it summed up my point when the author wrote, "She needs to be charged to restore faith in the system."
The system failed in this case, failed Brian, and failed justice. The system, and our society need to look at our attitudes around racism, and the constant strains on the judicial systems. Perhaps a stronger attorney would have fought for his innocence, or refused the plea deal. It is a sad state that the country is in when people feel they have a better outcome lying than telling the truth. The state of the system is not Gibson's fault.
Brian should be regarded as strong, persistent individual. It states that he has been receiving a lot of media attention, as well as industry contacts. He has a future as a motivational speaker I'm sure. His character is demonstrated in his actions and reactions to this situation. Anyone who judges him based on a false accusation ten years ago is not someone he should want to be employed by anyways. Perhaps he needs the state to make right on their wrongdoings, and provide him some counseling, employment coaching, and help him to regain his self esteem.
And Gibsons? She's broke, had her kids taken away, and can't even pay child support. The 750k is obviously gone, although I do think that she should have to pay that back.
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." Brian was wronged by the justice system, racism, his own attorney, and had his whole life rattled. Bad things happen to good people. Reality though, even as stated in your article, is that in the end, Brian came out on top. Natural consequences occurred where the system failed, and karma was served. Bad things happen, and people turn out stronger because of it. Move on. She didn't kill him, she didn't rape him, she didn't steal from him. She was a hormonal 15(?) year old girl who made a mistake, and that mistake spun out of control by means of the justice system, perhaps her own mother, and the racist attitudes of all involved. Her lack of remorse even speaks to her total lack of understanding of the situation. She's obviously impaired somehow, and the fact that the police, lawyers and prosecutors didn't see that is just another way they failed Brian.
[–]Arby013 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Just a comment... I'm curious about your reasoning with this statement:
She's obviously impaired somehow, and the fact that the police, lawyers and prosecutors didn't see that is just another way they failed Brian.
And compare that to your reasoning towards a male who shows no remorse for a crime that had a significant (10 years of being in jail, what's the equivalent of that?) negative impact on their victim.
They're both obviously impaired, but one gender gets a pass because of the impairment, the other is ... a criminal.
Did the perpetrator of the assault and the murder act under free will?
Some idiots have murdered sikhs because they hate muslims because of 9/11, and hate propaganda manufactured to drum up support for war. You could say those idiots have free will, but you could also argue that they are programmed, and that those actions are collateral damage from their programming.
Cultural presumption that rape claims are true is similar programming.
[–]RobotPolarbear-7 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I'd have a lot more respect for the mens rights movement if rape denial was not part of the agenda.
Who in the MRM is denying rape? More specifically, could you cite some examples of men denying rape?
I don't think I've ever seen someone in this sub say that rape doesn't happen. I've seen a lot of sexism on reddit, people saying misandry isn't real or even that you can't even be sexist against men. On this sub, if you say rape doesn't happen or anything misogynistic, you get downvoted to the bottom pretty damn quick.
[–]bomdiggabom-11 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Going to go ahead and say this because I have never been more infuriated by reading something on reddit before.
Most women you know don't report rape. The ones who do are incredibly strong.
Then you ask those of us who have remained quiet and its because we know no one will take us seriously if we say something.
I was raped by one of my best friend while passed out drunk. Found out later in the year (after not telling anyone) that he had done this to 9 other girls I was friends with. They did not want to come forward though.
Know why?
Because we as women are always accused of falsely accusing rape. So none of us took it to court. Because we know no one will believe us.because everyone believes that girls are lying. Because even if we do come forward we will be brandished as whores, regardless of whether or not the accused is convicted or not. Look at Anita hill. She came forward (was forced) and look how that went for her.
And as for the whole rape kit argument, have that argument after you've been raped anally and vaginally by the person who you were a week off from signing a lease with. It was the most confusing time in my life, and I spent the rest of the year trying my damnedest to get ese girls to speak up. No one wanted to "ruin his life"
I never get physically upset by most of the shit I see on reddit, but when boys start slinging the word rape around like its a way for girls to gain a "leg up" on someone it makes me sick.
Ask that girl who was passed out and gang raped in Ohio. Now ask the kids involved, one of which was released from jail and still holds a full scholarship to Ohio state. Ask how much she was "faking it" and tell her to stop lying.
[–]typhonblue14 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Most women you know don't report rape.
All the men you know who were raped likely never reported it. Never told anyone in fact.
http://www.genderratic.com/p/836/manufacturing-female-victimhood-and-marginalizing-vulnerable-men/
Equal numbers of men and women were "physically forced into sex(or attempted)" in 2010.
You've just rendered invisible half the victims of rape(more if you include prison stats) and made it that much harder for them to come forward.
Congrats. You are what you hate.
[–]TheCatPaul-5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I'm sorry but that website seems biased as all hell. And for the record there is no way in hell that more men are raped than women.
It's not true because you don't want it to be true? Is that how facts work now? "Well, thank you for the cited information, but there's no way in hell its true." Either come back with facts of your own or accept that your bias is not reality.
[–]typhonblue8 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I'm sorry but that website seems biased as all hell.
Your rebuttal is contentless. My article is a cited examination of the statistics.
And for the record there is no way in hell that more men are raped than women.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2012/feb/21/us-more-men-raped-than-women
And that's just prison rape. (Which is, according to recent statistics, majority female prison staff on male inmate.)
[–]TheCatPaul-7 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
There is a difference between total rapes and rapes in prison.
[–]Endless_Summer4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Which is what?
[–]TheSacredParsnip11 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
You should be just as sickened by women who do use rape allegations to further their purpose. They're the people making this an issue. If no one ever lied about it then we wouldn't question anyone. But, the fact is, people do lie about this sort of thing. We're not telling you not to go to the police and report your rapist. In fact, we encourage it. What we don't encourage is lying about it.
[–][deleted]9 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
No one will believe you? Everyone believes girls are lying? Did Duke believe the girl was lying about their lacrosse team? Did the dead boy in the infographic get murdered because everyone thinks girls are lying? Rape is the only crime I can think of for which an accusation can be enough for a conviction, at least in the court of public opinion. Your victim mentality is woefully misplaced.
[–]newSuperHuman5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I'm sorry if I'm insensitive, but I still don't know why girls who are raped have such a hard time coming forward. Again, assuming you are raped, there are two possibilities 1.) you have some evidence, and the guy gets locked up, or 2.) the worst outcome (for you) is that there is not enough evidence and some people think you lied. Even in that case, it serves as "a warning" to the man- he can't pull the same shit ever again because the next time someone accuses him of rape, much less evidence will be needed on top of the original. It's not perfect justice, but it's something in a world without perfect evidence.
[–]MidnightStarChaser7 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Not to sound argumentative, but here's why it was difficult for me. It's incredibly difficult to talk about, especially to a stranger. The only reason I came forward was because I knew a campus police officer and was comfortable talking to her. But even if you're comfortable with the officer, it's still difficult to drag up all those memories that you're likely trying to forget. And you have to be as detailed as possible.
And the worst that happened? I lost half my friends because half sided with him (he had been a friend beforehand, which is often the case). I lost the case and his arrogance hit a new high. He suddenly felt that he could beat the law and could get away with anything. He told anyone and everyone I could that I lied and tried to get him jailed. I became "the girl that lied about being sexually assaulted" in my dorm. He used the no contact order to his advantage and would often choose to be around my friends, knowing that I was forbidden from going near him as well. The police told me that there wasn't anything they could do about that. Eventually I talked to my friends about it, but the guy continued to hassle me until the end of the school year and I moved out of the dorm.
I know reporting it makes it easier for him to get caught in the future. But most women don't report anything because its so emotionally difficult. And the consequences aren't as cut and dry as you say they are.
Wait wait, you lost the case? What did you expect? You think you can accuse someone of a horrible crime, not have evidence to back up your claim, then get pissed off that people turn on you? For what crime is a victim's accusation enough to convict? It should never be enough. We have courts and procedures and evidence and rights, you cannot expect the justice system to turn upside down because the crime is rape. The same rules of evidence, presumption of innocence, and proof beyond reasonable doubt apply.
[–]MidnightStarChaser4 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I'm not really sure where you got the impression that I'm angry. I fully expected to lose. But I was sure as shit not going to sit on my ass and let him not have to go through anything after what he did to me. Unfortunately, I didn't think about how winning the case might affect his arrogance. A victim's accusation should never be enough to convict someone. My case was a complete "he said she said" sort of deal. I knew I'd lose. I don't expect the justice system to turn upside down for rapes and sexual assaults. That would do awful things to the men and women who are falsely accused. I was simply trying to answer the question of why it's difficult for women to report rapes and sexual assaults. I'm not really sure why you think I don't believe the rules of evidence, presumption of innocence, and proof beyond a reasonable doubt shouldn't apply. They should. Always.
[–]Bluebird_North0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Memories? Were you passed out and drunk? What memories?
Please clarify.
[–]MidnightStarChaser2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Memories of being sexually assaulted. I wasn't passed out and drunk. I hadn't had any alcohol or drugs that night. But I do still have memories of that night and what happened. I often try not to think about them, but bringing them up with a police officer when they're trying to write a report brings up everything (as it should, nothing should go forgotten in rape and assault reports). They ask such uncomfortable questions (and I knew they would).
I'm not really sure how else to clarify than to say that I remember being sexually assaulted. I'd like to forget, but I remember.
[–]Bluebird_North3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
I apologize. I thought I read you had passed out.
[–]0ctopus3 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Do you hate when women act as though 'rape' is the worst thing that could happen to them?
[–]Better_Than_Nothing2 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Really not sure why you're being downvoted, thanks for sharing your story.
I think this graphic is flawed as well. It automatically assumes that all of the women who recanted their stories were lying about being raped. It doesn't examine whether or not they were coerced into protecting their attacker, or whether they decided later that they did not want to go through the painful legal process of testifying at trial.
Its common to use your own personal experience with rape as a basis to deny false rapes, but:
false rape accusations are serious as shit. Accusations of brushing against your tit is serious as shit. Both are MUCH more serious than most typical date rape interpretations or the event you explained happened to you, because that harm is a socialized mental process that should be blockable. (I don't mean to imply that it is not deserving of sympathy as well)
Siding with every other rape complainant, and implicitly believing them, makes you a piece of shit. You are obviously lying and covering up false accusations under the belief that if you can force society to believe all rape claims, then you will receive validation and support for your experience more easily, and gain ultimate revenge power over him.
So, instead of legitimizing your rape, your support for hateful lies denying false rape frequency completely discredits your human value. If you are willing to support all other women's lies, and support a political movement that absurdly lies that no women ever lies, then why should society have any respect for any concern you have?
I'd suggest directing your anger at the feminists who deny rape liars, and of course the rape liars, if you want to have any respect for yourself, or show respect to other rape victims.
[–]Jazzeki0 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
if you have been raped come forward.
it's no ones fault but your own that YOU didn't do that. the world isn't fair. it really really isn't but if you can't prove that a crime have been comited we can't as a society act like it has.
when you acusse someone of a crime as horrible as rape you should be questioned. not because "you are most likely lying" but because like with every crime we need to be sure.
it is especially important to be sceptical when it comes to rape again not because you might be lying but because it's a traumatic expireince and you might have missed something or seen something that wasn't there or plain remeber it wrong. this means it needs to be investigated.
You "knowing no one will belive you" is the problem. that is why you never got justice. it's your own fault and it makes it incredibly hard for me to have empathy for your situation.
[–]bomdiggabom-5 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
In addition; I will not deny that women do not make false accusations. But this picture is a fallacy.
[–][deleted]-7 points 13 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link
Sorry to hear about your experience. I understand your anger, but just because you have a problem you refuse to deal with does not give you or anyone the right to dismiss false rape accusation statistics. Nor do you have the right to demand that men falsely accused of being a rapist remain silent simply so it is easier for you to go through your life. How many completely innocent men must sit in a prison cell or commit suicide so you do not have to deal with your problems?
GET OVER IT
The only solution to your pain is to get over your rape. Tell someone, anyone, a stranger, and your anger will magically vanish. You will get your life back, and I know you will, because it is all I had to do to get my life back. As long as you hide from your anger, as long as you get mad at men who are angry about false rape accusations, you will be living a sub-par life.
And the picture is certainly not a fallacy.
© TheRedArchive 2026. All rights reserved.created by /u/dream-hunter
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[–]MexicanGolf12 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Godspiral16 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]MexicanGolf-5 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Alkanfel10 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]MexicanGolf-4 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Alkanfel7 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]MexicanGolf-7 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Alkanfel8 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Godspiral1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]MexicanGolf-2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Alkanfel5 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]MexicanGolf-2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]5 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]MexicanGolf-3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]MexicanGolf0 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Catechin1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]MexicanGolf1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Catechin1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Godspiral2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]AtheistConservative3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]MexicanGolf-1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]AtheistConservative2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]MexicanGolf-1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Catechin1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]RedditBlueit2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]MexicanGolf0 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]SatanIsAnAtheist11 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]radamanthine9 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Johnthereader1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]radamanthine1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Johnthereader1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]radamanthine1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]BullsLawDan6 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]elwood784 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Godspiral3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]RedditBlueit2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]elwood783 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]RedditBlueit3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Mylon2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]HoopyFreud2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]ellecon8 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]shady8x6 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]shadowbanned65 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]cuteman1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]0 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]theozoph0 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]benevolentwalrus100 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Beatsters47 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]dungone3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Jaekman7 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]dungone3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Godspiral2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Beatsters6 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]dungone7 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]dellsharpie6 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]dungone2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]dellsharpie2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Beatsters3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]dungone1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Beatsters2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]dungone1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Beatsters1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]electriophile0 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]dungone4 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]dungone3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Godspiral0 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]electriophile1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]dungone0 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]dungone15 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]benevolentwalrus5 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]dungone8 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]benevolentwalrus2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]tone_0 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]benevolentwalrus1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]tone_1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]electriophile1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]tone_0 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]electriophile2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]tone_1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]electriophile1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]tone_1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]0 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]electriophile2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]dungone3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Godspiral1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]braveathee1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]super_cookies1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]-5 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]benevolentwalrus8 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]-3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Vegemeister1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]sultanate52 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Godspiral12 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]RedditBlueit1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]braveathee1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Godspiral1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]RedditBlueit2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Apellosine1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]jeampz1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]20 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]nowatermelonnokfc6 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]6 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]12 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]ZorbaTHut4 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Ma99ie4 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]sibqm_lmvm42 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Adake39 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]35 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]17 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]dinky_hawker5 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Greyfeld4 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]4 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Adake14 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]apotshot11 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]RD_Is_Best_Pony5 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]nanowerx12 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Bragzor1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Moustachiod_T-Rex26 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]6 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Moustachiod_T-Rex6 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]-1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]TheCatPaul1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]-1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]cronus854 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Moustachiod_T-Rex4 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]cronus851 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]dungone1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]McPuccio22 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]McFeely_Smackup17 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]McFeely_Smackup4 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]noodleworm16 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]15 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]TheSacredParsnip7 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]baskandpurr1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]JustOffendedYou0 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]cuteman3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]noodleworm1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Godspiral2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]CatManDontDo14 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]7 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]11 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]dinky_hawker11 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]8 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]TheCatPaul3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]dungone3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]HoopyFreud2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Bragzor9 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]blueoak91 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Bragzor1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]DerickBurton1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Bragzor1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]orsonames2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]fearlessducttaper12 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]TheCatPaul11 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]5 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]fearlessducttaper8 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]iMADEthis2post5 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]electriophile2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]iMADEthis2post1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]fearlessducttaper2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]iMADEthis2post1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]friestogo2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]clochejar3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]friestogo3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]electriophile1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]dungone1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]electriophile1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]dungone1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]electriophile2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]dungone1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]electriophile1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]dungone1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]electriophile1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]dungone1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]electriophile1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]dungone1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]electriophile1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]dungone1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]electriophile1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Godspiral-2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]fearlessducttaper2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Godspiral1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]fearlessducttaper2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]ellecon12 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]0 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]ellecon1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]10 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]8 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]8 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]salient_punt8 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]salient_punt6 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]binarypillbug-5 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]salient_punt8 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]5 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]nowatermelonnokfc7 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]123586 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]rshortman6 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Godspiral3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]rshortman5 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]6 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Coinin5 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]5 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Coinin4 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]rockyali5 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]rockyali1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Spooman115 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]MmmOnions5 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Nitzi4 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]cdcox4 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]-1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]electriophile3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Godspiral0 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]electriophile2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Godspiral1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]electriophile2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Godspiral1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]4 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]HoopyFreud2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]N64Overclocked4 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]JockeVXO4 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]washburncrosby3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]shadowbanned64 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]0 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Godspiral3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]JamesRyder1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]shadowbanned61 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]apotshot3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]dungone1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]shadowbanned61 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]shadowbanned61 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]ju11ce3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]geomn133 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]tandem73 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]automatedresponse3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]ReverendHaze3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]seraph853 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]SirDerpingtonThe3rd3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]throw_me_away_baby2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]surilamin8 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]throw_me_away_baby1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]MockingDead3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]5th_Law_of_Robotics2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Froolow2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Godspiral2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]falling2fast2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]JustOffendedYou2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Raikumo2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]CryAJagOnMe2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]AllenJacoby2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]AllenJacoby2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Bla341122 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Soho_Joe1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Godspiral9 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]MockingDead3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]7 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]bomdiggabom1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]6 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]occupythekitchen1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]xixoxixa1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Arby011 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]RomeFlower1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]frorge1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]billybishop42421 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]ProjectOXCART1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]subjectiveoco1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]0 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]oETFo0 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]ch4os1337-1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]salient_punt-1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]robe_and_slippies-1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Kampane-1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]trollwnb-2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]-2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]-3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]0 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]C1yde-4 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]chadratic-5 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]JustOffendedYou-5 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]canadijen-6 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]13 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]canadijen-9 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]4 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]canadijen-1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]4 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]canadijen0 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Arby013 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Godspiral1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]RobotPolarbear-7 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]7 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]bomdiggabom-11 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]typhonblue14 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]TheCatPaul-5 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]11 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]typhonblue8 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]TheCatPaul-7 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Endless_Summer4 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]TheSacredParsnip11 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]9 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]newSuperHuman5 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]MidnightStarChaser7 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]MidnightStarChaser4 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Bluebird_North0 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]MidnightStarChaser2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Bluebird_North3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]0ctopus3 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Better_Than_Nothing2 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Godspiral1 point [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]Jazzeki0 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–]bomdiggabom-5 points [recovered] | Copy Link
[–][deleted]-7 points [recovered] | Copy Link