John meets sarah and has two options

OffTheRedSand · 2024-07-29T21:25:17+00:00

Basically at this point he either lies about his intentions , gets laid and ultimately hurts her feelings

Most men will do this. They justify it by being horny and sexless for the longest time.

This is why most women want to wait for sex, it's the best vetting strategy.

Downtown_Cat_1173 · 2024-07-29T22:26:17+00:00

If I were Sarah, I would stop having sex with guys on the first date unless I am looking for a hookup. They are obviously going to lie about their feelings.

Also, I think this scenario is unrealistic. Unless they were having a love at first sight vibe, there’s no way to know if you want a serious relationship with a guy you went on one date with.

studentOfWisd · 2024-07-29T20:20:33+00:00

Tell her the truth. The human heart is a delicate thing and trampling on someone's because I want pleasure is wrong.
I think men who'd lie to get laid are being selfish and are putting their urges above their morals. I understand why but I think it's wrong.
No.

EulenWatcher · 2024-07-29T20:26:05+00:00

1) Be honest about his intentions, because that would be ethical.

2) People who lie about their intentions are shitty and make it harder for everyone.

3) Nope.

januaryphilosopher · 2024-07-29T20:37:41+00:00

It's wrong to lie and I don't know how a halfway decent person could enjoy having sex with someone they're lying to in order to have it. No it doesn't matter if anyone else likes you or not, lying and manipulating is wrong.

Junior_Ad_3086 · 2024-07-29T22:52:58+00:00

if sarah doesn't want to be played maybe she should stop sleeping with guys she just met off tinder, because realistically a lot of men will just hook up with her anyway. sure, those guys are doing something wrong but at some point you have to be realistic about how life works rather than focusing on how things should be in an ideal world. personally i would be honest but a lot of men wouldn't and they'll use plausible deniability to justify their actions because sarah can't know how these guys actually felt in that moment. especially when they met on a dating app, as there are very few repercussions for their actions.

i think men who lie to get laid are selfish but sometimes it can be difficult to do the right thing if it hurts your own interests, especially when plenty of women have no qualms about lying themselves (like about body counts). that's not a justification fwiw. if the guy was a friend of mine i would definitely give my opinion but i would not stop being friends with him over it for example. to the people itt who are saying sarah did not consent to a hookup, that's not how consent works from a legal perspective.

EugeneCezanne · 2024-07-29T20:31:06+00:00

Sarah does not consent to having sex with John under present conditions. John would have to purposefully trick her into having sex.

He has to be honest. No, his looks and recent success levels are irrelevant.

ShinyTentaquil · 2024-07-30T00:00:04+00:00

Tell her the truth
People who would lie are amoral
No

SadCahita · 2024-07-30T04:26:26+00:00

Get laid and after that slow the communication gradually. Wait no, last time I gave pity dates to someone it didn't end well.

I don't see Tinder as an app for serious dating. If you meet a guy from tinder and suck him off the first night you meet him and he leaves I think it's pretty much on you.

Demasii · 2024-07-29T22:04:55+00:00

Obviously the right thing to do is not to have sex with her.

But if John does have sex with her I wouldn't really think less of him because sex can change people's minds.

Sara could be the best that John ever had and he warms up to her voice. John could be the worst Sara ever had and she completely change her mind.

It's the first date. We put our best foot foward and are not a 100% honest about what type of person we are.

There is a scene in the movie Trainwreck where the lead is going to have a ONS. She goes through this obvious scripted routine of saying "I never do this. This is so weird for me" while she takes off she clothes without hesitation.

Specs400 · 2024-07-30T02:52:40+00:00

If her voice annoys me, I know that early on. Like 10 seconds into the date. If it's enough to preclude anything more than a hookup, we're not making out and things aren't escalating.

Off topic, but what gets weird about these scenarios is that lots of men and women are open to a quick fuck or a LTR. Probably more men than women, but if the moods right.... And then both men and women who genuinely want a LTR have sex with people long before they know whether they want that person long term. If a man bolts after having sex once, maybe he's a user, but maybe the sex was that bad or at least they were that incompatible. If he leave after 3 months, that doesn't mean he played her. He may have, but he may have learned something about her that in a still new relationship was enough to turn him off.

A man (or woman) leaving at any point isn't in and of itself evidence that anyone got taken advantage of.

apresonly · 2024-07-29T21:05:38+00:00

be honest and have self respect (which means you will actually like yourself and not be depressed and suicidal)
lie and live w the knowledge that you have to trick women into sex and the psychological damage that entails

Wide-Illustrator2906 · 2024-07-29T21:23:26+00:00

I've done both, it doesn't feel good either way
I don't judge, everyone has their own moral code.
Not necessarily, it's human nature to do what's in you're best interest regardless of others opinion

Same-Treacle-6141 · 2024-07-29T21:52:20+00:00

I thank God (or whatever) that I met my wife almost 15 years ago and never had to go through this…

According_Second4222 · 2024-07-30T02:56:39+00:00

Be honest, lying is bad for business and the entire market just gets worse. If people expect dishonesty, they will start acting dishonest. This will eventually hurt you too. If he's attractive, she'll probably cave thinking she can change him anyway.

BrainMarshal · 2024-07-30T04:10:26+00:00

John meets Sarah on Tinder,

and even when he wins, he still loses.

SadCahita · 2024-07-30T04:37:35+00:00

Either she does want to have sex per se or she does it transactionally for having my favor in the future.

If the former, then I don't see it wrong to pump and dump as she did want sex. If the latter, she should know better and do it transactionally for money or a more realistic favor like helping her to move out, not for a relationship. Men are not vending machines where you put a sex token and get a boyfriend plushie.

Disastrous_Donut_206 · 2024-07-29T20:52:48+00:00

She did not consent to a hookup.

Hoopy223 · 2024-07-29T21:35:36+00:00

That’s not a realistic scenario, if she’s pretty and they get along well BUT her voice is annoying he will buy earplugs and keep seeing her. I know of guys who have been married for 20yrs like that lol.

DreaminInChocolate · 2024-07-29T21:39:17+00:00

John can do what he wants, but he better not complain when Sarah lies about being on birth control or uses him for a free dinner and fucks Chad afterwards.

SameNotice4306 · 2024-07-29T21:43:30+00:00

Interesting. It’s heartwarming to see so many comments pointing out what a trash individual John would be if he went through with it knowing he has every intention to ditch Sarah. I agree.

My first instinct as a woman however was that Sarah was silly for going to his place while so called making it clear she wants something serious. She sounds like a: I don’t usually do this airhead.

Sarah needs to get a brain, some self worth, some self preservation instincts, something… quick or she’ll end up a pump and dumped mess with zero accountability.

You don’t go to some rando’s house if you want to be taken seriously. Your words are meaningless when your behavior says something else.

Getting ditched is amongst the least dangerous things that could happen to her there given the poor choices she seems to make. She’s behaving like a hookup. The chances she gets treated as one are high.

holyskillet · 2024-07-29T22:39:39+00:00

Sarah does not only have an annoying voice, but she is also very, very, very stupid. To the point where I don't care if someone breaks her heart.

It's very odd for Sarah to sleep with a stranger and put so much expectation into this encounter. You are either willing to give something up and not have a return on it or you are not, and if you are not, act accordingly.

SaBahRub · 2024-07-29T23:04:43+00:00

Sex or morality, your choice

Redpill-mind · 2024-07-29T21:05:16+00:00

1/What would you do ?

Not date a Sarah

AcephalicDude · 2024-07-29T21:11:53+00:00

I think people that will be dishonest in order to get sex are gross. Maybe not immoral, not evil, not horrible people, not equivalent to Hitler. But just...ew, you're really gross.

sprckets21 · 2024-07-29T21:02:48+00:00

If you’re in this situation and you can just get another tinder date tomorrow, you don’t even sweat a decision and just let her go.

If you think she’s hot and have to have her despite the voice, you see if she will just come to your place the next date. If she won’t and wants to be taken out again, she don’t want you bad enough and you move on.

Most guys if she’s attractive or they haven’t got laid in awhile, will literally say whatever they think a girl needs to hear to get laid.

boom-wham-slam · 2024-07-29T21:58:34+00:00

Tell her the truth. However I don't find your example realistic. Why would I decide I don't want to date a hot girl without fucking her first? I'm generally open minded and prefer not to decide shit until post nut clarity. So I don't forsee a situation with a hot girl I hit it off with saying no way no how.
I don't really care much though. Yeah it's dick move to lie, it's a stupid move to trust a man you just met and sleep with him. Basically she deserves what she gets.
Why would it matter?

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Goonerlouie · 2024-07-30T04:59:38+00:00

Just do it regardless of his attractiveness. Quantity quantity quantity! I am sure there is a fine balance between what you can compromise on versus how great the sex was.

Savings-Bee-4993 · 2024-07-30T05:23:08+00:00

I would not hook up with her. I would be tactfully honest about why I don’t see this working. This is the right thing to do.
I think men who choose such options are acting understandably but immorally.
Not at all. What is moral or immoral, honorable or dishonorable, has nothing to do with this attractiveness or hers.

TraditionalPen2076 · 2024-07-30T05:49:35+00:00

1) First option. I will have the best outcome served to me as women do the same.

2) They are called chads. It's on the woman the enforce the strict boundary of no sex before commitment as she is the gatekeeper of sex. If she's willing to "risk it" with you before commitment, congratulations you're "chadly" enough to achieve sex.

3)It absolutely it. The stricter the boundary for no sex is, the less attractive the guy is

Upset_Material_3372 · 2024-07-30T06:55:22+00:00

1: I wouldn’t be having a one night stand or caring about the sound of a woman’s voice. Because I don’t like the idea of hookups and I don’t put much weight on the sound of someone’s voice.

2: if a man has options to choose from then he is more desirable than most and will probably be pickier than most for commitment since he’ll have the majority of women attracted to him..

3: his attractiveness is absolutely a factor not only would a less attractive guy not care about something like the sound of a woman’s voice but he’d also not even be considered by Sarah. If he IS less attractive he’d probably be more likely to lie to her as this is an opportunity he will likely not have again anytime soon if at all

SecondEldenLord · 2024-07-30T07:48:36+00:00

I personally would use her for sex cause I barely get any options anyway.
Their choice, nothing illegal there. Women are selfish in the dating market all the time so why not men?
If John can have other options, he should seek other options and not hurt her, but if he doesn't have any options and doesn't want a long term relationship, then just use her for sex and that's it.

Werevulvi · 2024-07-30T11:14:00+00:00

I think men choosing to lie just to get sex are awful people. They're taking advantage of honest women. There are men who complain about women taking way to long in the dating process before being willing to have sex, but this is literally why most women refuse sex on the first date. Even if the guy is super hot and we're super horny for him, we still gotta wait just to weed out these kinds of manipulative liars. One thing I've learned is that guy wanting sex on the first date is incredibly suspicious. Unless it's a guy who's a long term friend and it's obvious he has romantic feelings for me, I would never take such a risk, unless I'm fine with some occasional hookups during my dating process. But if so, then I'd say that.

Because yeah, I sometimes did that in the past. But nowadays I just have zero interest in hookups and casual sex. With all these opinions on "loose" women not being dating material I eventually decided "no more casual sex" to show that I am serious. And then there's just way too much of a risk to have sex on the first date. Better wait til the 20th date or something. And yes it's a test to see if a guy is truly into a serious relationship with me or just pretending to be to get his dick wet. Because clearly, that's a necessary strategy.

Sure it's not illegal to lie but most people still don't like liars. I shouldn't have to explain that to you. Your boss will hate you if you lie about being sick, your mom will scold you if you lie about where you were last night, your friends won't trust you if you lie about what you're using money for that they gave you, and so on. Lying makes proper communication impossible. And how does anyone secure their needs and protect their boundaries when not able to have proper communication? Even for consensual hookups, communicating boundaries is super important.

In this particular scenario, lying is a way to bypass the woman's consent, as she's made it clear she'd only consent to sex if he's serious and wants to give her a chance to have a relationship. Bypassing consent just to get what you want is a big no-no as far as most women are concerned.

I mean, just turn it around: if a man consents to sex only if the woman is serious about dating (there are men who have zero interest in hookups for all sorts of personal reasons, be it values, religion, trauma or maybe he just has trust issues) and she lies just to get a hookup, he'd reasonably be hurt by that too. It's not that the sex is automatically bad if it doesn't lead to something more, it's that it's disrespecting the other person's sexual boundaries if you lie to get sex on different conditions.

I know for a fact that men absolutely care about sexual consent and boundaries too. Just look at the trans debate for ex. All the men who feel awful at the thought of a transwoman lying about being a biological woman just to get sex from them. It's the same principle. And I think a big reason they do that is because men frequently lie to get sex from women, so a lot of people think it's fair game to manipulate men for sex too. So if you don't want that kinda stuff done to you, then maybe don't do it to others.

But also, I hope karma gets to those kinda men. They honestly deserve to have a taste of their own medicine. I guess that's where my empathy stops.

shadowrangerfs · 2024-07-30T16:31:27+00:00

I tell her that I don't want a relationship and say goodbye. She's made it clear that she would be hurt if she is used for sex. I make the choice of whether to hurt her or not. Also, I'm not a liar.

I think less of men who lie about wanting a relationship in order to get sex.

His attractiveness doesn't matter. He's not gonna die if he doesn't sleep with her.

gntlbastard · 2024-07-30T19:15:25+00:00

Be honest, for every woman who isn't DTF there is one who is. Why bother lying?

McPigg · 2024-07-30T21:14:03+00:00

1 I would be honest "look your great and all and super cute, we match well, but your voice is kind of a problem and im not looking for sth serious here. You can still come up, it wil be fun, but turn the damn marriage bells down all the way" and let the chips fall. Based on her behaviour in the example i would see a pretty good chance she still does it, actions speak louder then words, and when i made my stance clear its her problem

2 i think its pathetic and bad karma to string on and hurt girls like that, so i dont do it, but i understand many guys will do it but thats their own problem

3 the guys with more options arent neccesarily the more moral righteous ones

AlmostKindaGreat · 2024-07-30T23:49:17+00:00

I would tell her the truth and not have sex with her.

If I knew I would hurt her I'd rather not have the momentary pleasure because I would be haunted by the idea of another person being hurt intentionally by me. I'd like to say this is 100% altruism but I'm sure some of this is because I'm ego invested in the idea of being a "good guy". I'm not proud of this but at least it contributes to me doing the right thing in this case.

Hmm. Right is right and wrong is wrong and I think a guy, deep down, knows what he's doing here.

That said, I can somewhat understand a jadedness and "all is fair in love and war" attitude because most people have been the victim of the "plausible deniability" or "not technically lying" kind of loose ethics in relating to others romantically. Women do it and men do it too. Doesn't make it right and people should try to be better than the ones who took advantage of them but I understand a bit of a "don't hate the player hate the game" thinking. Again, doesn't excuse wrong actions, but I understand how the cycle is propagated.

Along the same lines, circumstances shouldn't matter when it comes to ethics. But I have some additional thoughts.

Relating to the following point, we all know that needs for emotional and physical acceptance aren't on the save level of basic needs for survival. But I do view a thief who steals bread to fight off gnawing hunger differently than a thief who steals an iPhone. So I also judge a less attractive guy who is dealing with self-esteem issues from feeling not accepted physically less than an attractive guy who just wants the 3rd new notch on his bedpost this week. I think the less attractive guy should take the validation that this woman would accept him if the circumstances were different but I relate to his desperation even if I can't defend his actions if he goes through with it.

throwaway1276444 · 2024-07-31T12:21:30+00:00

John ends up having sex with Sarah. She is a star fish. He is not a dick head, and changes his mind.

So he goes on another date or two. Ends up liking her. Sarah then acts as if they are together. Makes him feel like she only has eyes for him, and is very much smitten with him. He really likes this, because he always wanted to feel a girl being romantic with him.

In the mean time, she is still going on tinder and checking out her new matches and/or having sex with her exes.

They have not had the exclusivity talk yet. So Sarah is having sex with the better looking guys. They then talk about being exclusive, they both agree.

3 months later John sees a message on Sarah's phone and decides to be nosy. He finds out that when they were talking on the phone about becoming exclusive. Sarah was in bed with another guy.

John is heartbroken, makes a post about it on r/relationships where all the women berate him for complaining, breaking her privacy, etc. Since they were not exclusive.

John goes back to Sarah and apologizes for being in the wrong, and accepts the situation. 9 months after that John finds himself on r/DeadBedrooms, wondering why Sarah won't have sex with him anymore.

Jello_Vivid · 2024-07-31T20:48:11+00:00

I would be upfront and honest as hookers do exist so if I was desperate for sex I could just do that. I like to be honest about my intentions and not lie my way into bed. I think that men who do decide to lie are probably thinking with their dick and feel like they have no other options.

Slipthe · 2024-07-29T20:40:29+00:00

If I was him and I was deadset on having sex with someone despite knowing I don't have their interests at heart, I would continue seeing them just long enough to have plausible deniability that I 'tried' but it didn't work out.
I do find it uncanny to have such a strong desire to have sex with someone who disgusts you in some way. And for what? Momentary pleasure for a burned bridge and pain. I wouldn't want to make enemies like that.
If he's more attractive, it's kind of worse because he didn't do it out of a lack of options.

NoDanaOnlyZuuI · 2024-07-30T01:38:27+00:00

Be honest because I’m not an asshole
Men who would are douche bags
No.

Objective_Ad_6265 · 2024-07-30T05:04:34+00:00

If he uses her for sex he is evil sociopath, she doesn't consent to casual hook up, she doesn't consent under his conditions if she knew the truth.

GymBroTRT · 2024-07-29T21:01:34+00:00

That’s not how you do it. Firstly, John decides what he wants before he even leaves the house. If he just wants to get laid for the night, he is definitely not taking a woman on a date. He is either calling a FWB or going to a bar/club where he knows he can pick up a woman who wants some fun.

If John has left the house having decided he wants to find a serious girlfriend and Janet or whatever her name is is too annoying and not a fit, he ends the date early and goes home.

MongoBobalossus · 2024-07-29T20:22:19+00:00

Get laid and tell her after. If it’s not going anywhere, it’s not like you’re going to be seeing her again.

banthaaa · 2024-07-29T20:56:15+00:00

Probably lie or bend the truth but more to see if I can successfully than because I actually want to have a one night stand

TallFoundation7635 · 2024-07-29T21:07:30+00:00

Be honest about it, not because it is the right thing to do but because it has the chance to destroy you. Lying to a woman can get that woman to lie to the police or your friends about you beating her or raping her. Also i think having an abundance mindset for a man is really important, and lying to a woman just to get pussy in spite of the massive risks of doing so makes you lose respect for yourself.

Edit: Just saw someone comment that you should have sex with her and string her along until plausible deniability can kick into place. That is probably the best way to go about it.

I understand why some men would lie, but it is a stupid idea.
Same as point 2.

ta06012022 · 2024-07-29T21:34:24+00:00

She explicitly said she's down to go to his place if he's down for something serious. I would argue he doesn't actually have consent for a hookup. That's probably not the legal definition of consent, but morally it would clearly be wrong for him to sleep with her.

In my opinion, it would be fine for him to sleep with her if they never discussed serious vs. ONS at all, but not if she's said no to a ONS.

half3mptyhalffull · 2024-07-29T21:43:07+00:00

unpopular opinion: if youre looking for something serious, wait to have sex until youve vetted the person.

wtknight · 2024-07-29T20:55:10+00:00

What would you do ? Why ?

I wouldn’t be having sex on a first date. So I would be honest and tell her that I’m not interested in a relationship with her.

What is your opinion on men choosing each options ?

Men and women are under no obligation to be honest with each other about each other’s intentions. As long as those intentions aren’t criminal, men and women can say and do what they want. It’s up to the other person to vet.

Is john's attractiveness a factor in your analysis ?

No. It’s up to people to get to know other people before doing something that they might regret later.

Title	John meets sarah and has two options
Author	Jazzlike_Worth_9908
Upvotes	10
Comments	190
Date	July 29, 2024 7:27 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1ef8e6q/john_meets_sarah_and_has_two_options/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/john-meets-sarah-and-has-two-options.1525714 https://theredarchive.com/post/1525714

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