N COUNTS WEEKLY DISCUSSION THREAD

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[–]WebNew9978Black Pill Man [score hidden] 8 months ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]ta06012022Man [score hidden] 8 months ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]asklepios73 points 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Yes, basically all of them. The expert consensus is that both sexes care, but feminists only think that having preferences is wrong when men possess them.

Weber, M., & Friese, M. (2024). Sexual (Double) Standards Revisited: Similarities and Differences in the Societal Evaluation of Male and Female Sexuality. Social Psychological and Personality Science, 0(0). https://doi.org/10.1177/19485506241237288

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Busch, T.M., Saldala-Torres, P. The Impact of Sexual History and Relationship Type on Social Perceptions. Sexuality & Culture 28, 2608–2628 (2024). https://doi.org/10.1007/s12119-024-10246-8

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Stewart-Williams, S., Butler, C. A., & Thomas, A. G. (2017). Sexual History and Present Attractiveness: People Want a Mate With a Bit of a Past, But Not Too Much. Journal of sex research, 54(9), 1097–1105. https://doi.org/10.1080/00224499.2016.1232690

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Jones, D. N. (2016). The ‘Chasing Amy’ bias in past sexual experiences: Men can change, women cannot. Sexuality & Culture: An Interdisciplinary Quarterly, 20(1), 24–37. https://doi.org/10.1007/s12119-015-9307-0

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Allison, R., & Risman, B. J. (2013). A double standard for "Hooking Up": How far have we come toward gender equality?. Social science research, 42(5), 1191–1206. https://doi.org/10.1016/j.ssresearch.2013.04.006

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Garcia, L. T. (2006). Perceptions of sexual experience and preferences for dating and marriage. Canadian Journal of Human Sexuality, 15(2), 85–94. https://psycnet.apa.org/record/2006-22827-003

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Herold, E. S., & Milhausen, R. R. (1999). Dating preferences of university women: An analysis of the nice guy stereotype. Journal of Sex & Marital Therapy, 25(4), 333–343. https://doi.org/10.1080/00926239908404010

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Sprecher, S., Regan, P. C., McKinney, K., Maxwell, K., & Wazienski, R. (1997). Preferred level of sexual experience in a date or mate: The merger of two methodologies. Journal of Sex Research, 34(4), 327–337. https://doi.org/10.1080/00224499709551901

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O'Sullivan, L. F. (1995). Less is more: The effects of sexual experience on judgments of men's and women's personality characteristics and relationship desirability. Sex Roles: A Journal of Research, 33(3-4), 159–181. https://doi.org/10.1007/BF01544609

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Jacoby, A. P., & Williams, J. D. (1985). Effects of Premarital Sexual Standards and Behavior on Dating and Marriage Desirability. Journal of Marriage and Family, 47(4), 1059–1065. https://doi.org/10.2307/352351

[–]Muscletov2 points 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]Able_Donut2654Live fast die young man [score hidden] 8 months ago (35 children) | Copy Link

[–]SleepyPoemsin2020 [score hidden] 8 months ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Able_Donut2654Live fast die young man [score hidden] 8 months ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Ah the old dating preference hypocrisy charge. Not bursting at the seams with originality are we?

I'm sure you call all the woman that want a strong man while not being strong herself hypocrites?

Or all the women are want a man who is funny and can make her laugh while not being funny herself?

Or all the woman that want an ambitious men while not being ambitious herself. Hypocrites as well?

Or the woman who want a man that will take initiative when she won't take initiative, hypocrites one and all.

I could literally run out the character limit of reddit just listing how most dating preferences by both men are women make them hypocrites by your absurd standard.

Men and women want completely different things in a mate, qualities, attitudes and behaviors that they themselves to not posses.

It's funny showing up here and running into people so terminally online that you have to explain basic human interactions to them.

[–]SleepyPoemsin2020 [score hidden] 8 months ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Able_Donut2654Live fast die young man [score hidden] 8 months ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]SleepyPoemsin2020 [score hidden] 8 months ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Well you certainly know how to avoid the point. Or maybe you need me to spell it out for you more slowly.

A preference for physical or other traits is not comparable to creating double standards to excuse yourself engaging in behaviors natural to both sexes and associated with moral judgment that you feel entitled to restrict your partner from.

More analogous situations would be, for example:

Am I a hypocrite if I find a man undesirable for having a misdemeanor on his record if I myself have several felony convictions? Yes.

Am I a hypocrite for feeling entitled to eat out alone with male friends while expecting my man to always be in a group around other women? Yes.

Am I a hypocrite to expect to be free from my gender role while expecting my man to conform? Yes, which could arguably include some of the behaviors you listed, such as not taking initiative.

[–]Able_Donut26541 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You are once again deflecting with boundaries in a relationship when we are talking about preferences on what type of people to choose in the first place. Trying to earn that mental gymnastics medal?

In addition all my examples were of behaviours not physical traits which is another sad deflection that you tried.

Just because someone has done drugs does not mean that they now can only date drug users.

Just because someone is shy does not mean that they can only date shy people.

Just because someone likes juggling duck does not mean that they can only date people that juggle fucking ducks.

The entire concept is moronic and crumbles under the barest of scrutiny. Which is why you keep refusing to address my actual examples and keep deflecting. I know it's embarrassing to admit making a bad argument but it can make you grow as a person. You should try it some time.

[–]SleepyPoemsin20201 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You are once again deflecting with boundaries in a relationship when we are talking about preferences on what type of people to choose in the first place. Trying to earn that mental gymnastics medal?

I mean given you deflected from my original criticism:

But if you still look down on and shame women for doing what you either do or wish you could do - ie, sleeping with a lot of people - I'm still going to think you're a gross hypocrite.

to preferences for a relationship, which indeed are separate to acting like an asshole towards people who engage in the same behavior you do, it's funny how you're now trying to dismiss my examples by framing them as boundaries in a relationship and thus irrelevant.

First of all, the one regarding being turned off by a criminal when you're a worse one isn't about boundaries, it's clearly about preferences. Second, you can reframe the same examples as "preferences" and they still clearly illustrate the same point. E.g., having a "preference" for men who follow traditional gender roles while feeling entitled not to follow them myself would still make me a hypocrite.

In addition all my examples were of behaviours not physical traits which is another sad deflection that you tried.

Uh yeah sure. Except you said:

I'm sure you call all the woman that want a strong man while not being strong herself hypocrites?

Unless you now want to try to move the goalposts to say oh I only meant emotionally strong which nonetheless is a trait, and not a behavior, although traits can lead to behaviors. I clearly stated I was talking about physical and OTHER traits. Which again, sexual behavior is not a trait. It can be influenced by traits, but it is not one.

Just because someone has done drugs does not mean that they now can only date drug users.

Nope, but if they actively use drugs while shitting on other people who use drugs, or actively screen partners for drug use while they themselves are shooting meth on a regular basis, they're fucking hypocrites. Just like man sluts hating on female sluts for enjoying casual sex and feeling grossed out by them.

Just because someone is shy does not mean that they can only date shy people.

Just because someone likes juggling duck does not mean that they can only date people that juggle fucking ducks.

These are entirely unequivocal to holding a double standard about sexual behavior.

A neutral preference for complementary traits is not comparable to condemnation towards someone, who in the past, engaged in the same behavior you have.

Not restricting your dating pool to people who have the same hobbies as you is not the same thing as expecting your future partner not to have had the same experiences that you have.

But if you find shy women shitting on shy men and calling them disgusting, while seeing no problem in being shy themselves... By all means, criticize them as hypocrites. You have my blessing.

The entire concept is moronic and crumbles under the barest of scrutiny. Which is why you keep refusing to address my actual examples and keep deflecting. I know it's embarrassing to admit making a bad argument but it can make you grow as a person. You should try it some time.

What's completely moronic are your attempts to first move the goal posts and then attempt to define hypocrisy essentially out of existence so you can justify shitty, outdated double standards.

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[–]ta06012022Man [score hidden] 8 months ago (1 child) | Copy Link

The word you are looking for is disgust.

This is something I've never understood personally, as it relates purely to count.

I definitely feel disgusted (might be a strong word, but I'll use it) if I think about a woman I'm with having sex with someone else. But whether it was 10 guys one time each or one guy hundreds of times, I feel no more or less disgusted by the thought. Either way, it's a thing I prefer not to think about.

I've had women I dated comment that they get the ick thinking about me with other exes as well. Back in college, I was moving out of an apartment and the girl I was sort of dating was there with me. When I moved the bed, it was really dirty underneath and there was a bunch of hair of various colors. She said something like "most of that hair is definitely not mine". That was a trigger that opened up a whole can of worms and she started acting jealous and questioning me.

So it's not just a male thing. Most people just don't actively think about their partner's sexual past, so when they're confronted with it, I think it can be jarring and cause the ick for a lot of people.

[–]Colt_MasterBlue-red 🐎👞 law (Man) [score hidden] 8 months ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Colt_MasterBlue-red 🐎👞 law (Man) 3 points4 points5 points 8 months ago (6 children) | Copy Link

In these posts throughout the weeks, many men do argue at length about avoiding promiscuous women due to perception that they'll be bad partners, which can be labeled insecurity. Divorce stats is only scratching the surface of it, there's also the talks about how promiscuous women are likelier to have been alpha widowed, that they'll reminisce about past better partners, gotten trauma from having been pumped and dumped and thus jaded, how sex will feel less "special" to them, how they're likelier to be size queens since by sheer chance they're bound to have experienced big dick, how their libido for men in their league has been damaged, how their pair bonding abilities have been impaired, how it doesn't raise your ego as much to get something that many other men have already experienced, and likely more variants that I'm forgetting. And furthermore, many of these arguments come from an emotional point rather than stone cold logic.

Are all these arguments just "rationalizing the ick", or is it viceversa similar to what the OP argues?

Evopsych is far from a hard science and with our current knowledge, paternity certainty hypothesis is just that, a hypothesis. Meanwhile, it's far from an hypothesis that some men exist that feel insecure about promiscuous women.

[–]OutOfOranges [score hidden] 8 months ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]Colt_MasterBlue-red 🐎👞 law (Man) [score hidden] 8 months ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Just_Alternative3167moid -1 points0 points1 point 8 months ago* (11 children) | Copy Link

This is the real answer to end this stupid recurring thread. Do they all really think it's just a coincidence that cultures and religions all over the world from all ages converged to celebrating female virginity and stigmatizing female promiscuity?

Men don't want to be cucked and unknowingly spend time and resources on another man's child with genes that aren't his own, it's absolutely fatal from an evolutionary POV. Thus men who watched out and took the sexual past of potential mates into account were successful and procreated more so that this preference spread and became basically ubiquitous.

This never developed for women, they can at all times be certain that their child is their own, so they can't relate.

Today we have fatherhood tests and all but it doesn't change preferences hardwired in our biology.

Redpillers are so cringe citing their marriage statistics "she's more likely to cheat!" basically acting like women a lot women do, trying to rationalize their intrinsic, politically incorrect preferences instead of just owning them (not that they're incorrect citing those but they're more tangential). Real reason is that high n naturally feels gross and gives many guys the ick and makes them not want to commit.

[–]operation-spotPurple Pill Woman [score hidden] 8 months ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]ta06012022Man [score hidden] 8 months ago (7 children) | Copy Link

This never developed for women, they can at all times be certain that their child is their own, so they can't relate.

Women also prefer men with low n counts, but likely for different reasons.

https://www.psypost.org/new-body-count-study-reveals-how-sexual-history-shapes-social-perceptions/

https://www.psypost.org/new-study-identifies-the-ideal-number-of-sexual-partners-according-to-social-norms/

https://www.uncp.edu/sites/default/files/purc/posters/courtney_britt.pdf

Historically women were heavily dependent on men for providing things like food, shelter, and protection from other humans and predators.

Promiscuous men are risky, because women don't know whether he'll stay and prioritize the survival of her offspring or if he'll simply abandon them and prioritize the survival of other offspring from other women. Ensuring the survival of their children is a deeply embedded instinct in women. It makes sense that they prefer men who maximize their odds of that outcome.

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[–]Colt_MasterBlue-red 🐎👞 law (Man) 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago (1 child) | Copy Link

In these posts throughout the weeks, many men do argue at length about avoiding promiscuous women due to perception that they'll be bad partners, which can be labeled insecurity. Divorce stats is only scratching the surface of it, there's also the talks about how promiscuous women are likelier to have been alpha widowed, that they'll reminisce about past better partners, gotten trauma from having been pumped and dumped and thus jaded, how sex will feel less "special" to them, how they're likelier to be size queens since by sheer chance they're bound to have experienced big dick, how their libido for men in their league has been damaged, how their pair bonding abilities have been impaired, how it doesn't raise your ego as much to get something that many other men have already experienced, and likely more variants that I'm forgetting. And furthermore, many of these arguments come from an emotional point rather than stone cold logic.

Are all these arguments just "rationalizing the ick", or is it viceversa similar to what the OP argues?

Evopsych is far from a hard science and with our current knowledge, paternity certainty hypothesis is just that, a hypothesis. Meanwhile, it's far from an hypothesis that some men exist that feel insecure about promiscuous women.

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Systematic reviews are at the pinnacle. Here are a few:

REVIEW: In their report “Predictors of infidelity among couples”, Belu and O’Sullivan (2024) (PDF) identify a greater motivation and willingness to engage in casual, uncommitted sex (i.e., an unrestricted sociosexual orientation) as an individual predictor of infidelity, though this association may largely be explained by lower relationship commitment and greater attention to alternative partners (pg.270).
REVIEW: A narrative review by Rokach and Chan (2023) (PDF) explored the causes and consequences of infidelity in romantic relationships, identifying the number of sex partners before marriage and permissive attitudes toward sex as personal characteristics associated with infidelity (pg.10).
REVIEW: Buss & Schmitt (2019) (PDF) wrote that men assess and evaluate women’s levels of past sexual activity—behavior that would have been observable or known through social reputation in ancestral small-group environments—because past behavior is a good predictor of future behavior, and having a large number of sex partners prior to marriage is a statistical predictor of infidelity after marriage (pg.92). Cited is a previous book by David Buss, a professor of psychology at the University of Texas at Austin, which describes premarital sexual permissiveness as the single best predictor of extramarital sex (Buss, 2016, pg.108-109).

.

REVIEW: In a peer-reviewed article published in Current Opinion in Psychology, Fincham and May (2017) (PDF) synthesized findings on infidelity in romantic relationships, identifying key individual predictors such as a greater number of prior sexual partners and permissive sexual attitudes. These attitudes—characterized by a detachment of sex from love and a willingness to engage in casual, noncommittal sex—were strongly linked to increased infidelity risk (pg.71). As part of the Current Opinion journal series, the article reflects expert consensus on emerging trends, offering a systematic and authoritative review of the literature.
The study by Pinto and Arantes (2017) (PDF), involving 369 participants (92 males and 277 females) investigated the relationship between sexual and emotional promiscuity and infidelity. The authors noted that some researchers believe that infidelity is a consequence of promiscuity (pg.386), and hypothesized that sexual promiscuity and infidelity are correlated (pg.387). The participants completed an online questionnaire consisting of the Revised Sociosexual Orientation Inventory (SOI-R), the Emotional Promiscuity Scale (EP), and the Sexual and Emotional Infidelity Scale (SEI), along with demographic and infidelity history questions (pp. 388–389). Data were analyzed using Pearson correlations to examine associations between variables, t-tests to assess sex differences and infidelity behavior patterns, and ANOVA to evaluate differences based on sexual orientation regarding promiscuity and infidelity. They found that sexual promiscuity was positively correlated with sexual infidelity [r(323) = .595, p < .001] and emotional infidelity [r(323) = .676, p < .001] (pg.390). These would be considered moderate-to-strong correlations. The authors confirmed their hypothesis that there is a positive correlation between sexual promiscuity and infidelity (pg.393), and concluded that they are related to each other (pg.395).

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so the answer is 0, not low n count, but no n count.

Nope, to be technical, it's not really about the number but more about the ability to get women.

And not to burst your bubble, but women shame incels not because of n count, but because of what they say and how they act.

Yeah sure, like the involuntary in incel isn't the reason why they call men like that. Especially when it's used as a slur when the person using it know nothing about the life of the so called incel.

It's weird how I've been called an Incel, a Virgin, someone who can't get any pussy, around here, even when I stated that I have a high bodycount. No women ever called me a man whore. Geez, I wonder why.

i know that men don't usually see why, because to them what incels say is completely okay

Well, if men don't see why being called an incel is about what they say and how they act, why do women keep using it as an insult? Why not switch to assholes or moron? Is it because there is something more insulting behind "incel" than that?

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Studies have consistently shown that a higher number and/or permissive sexual attitudes is related to infidelity and relationship dissatisfaction/instability.

.

Study: Re-Examining the Link Between Premarital Sex and Divorce (Journal of Family Issues, 2024)

The key results here are mostly consistent across models: those with the highest number of premarital sexual partners as of Wave III (nine or more) have about triple the odds of divorce compared to those with none (ORs = 2.65—3.20). Notably, this effect becomes stronger as controls are added to the model, indicating such hypothesized selection factors as sociodemographic or religious characteristics actually suppress, rather than help explain, the effect of premarital sex for those with the highest number of partners. Those with one to eight partners are also at greater risk of divorce, though this coefficient is weaker than for those with nine or more partners. Specifically, in the full model the odds of divorce for those with one to eight partners are 64% higher than those with no premarital partners (10/23)

As expected, we find evidence of a nonlinear relationship between the number of sexual partners and the risk of divorce. Those in the highest category of partners (9+) consistently show the highest divorce risk by a substantial margin, followed by those with one to eight partners, with the lowest risk for those with none. In other words, we find distinct tiers of divorce risk between those with no, some, or many premarital, nonspousal sexual partners… although partner counts of eight or less have become increasingly normative, having more partners may indicate distinctive characteristics which are not conducive to marital stability. (16/23)

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/0192513X231155673?download=true

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Review: Predictors of infidelity among couples (Journal of Sexual Medicine, 2024)

Individuals who have a more unrestricted sociosexual orientation (ie, greater motivation and willingness to engage in casual, uncommitted sex) are more likely to engage in infidelity (2/4)

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/379535030_Predictors_of_infidelity_among_couples

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Review: Love and Infidelity: Causes and Consequences (International Journal of Environmental Research and Public Health, 2023)

Personal characteristics such as neuroticism, prior history of infidelity, number of sex partners before marriage, psychological distress and an insecure attachment orientation, as well as permissive attitudes toward sex, have been positively associated with infidelity (10/19)

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10002055/pdf/ijerph-20-03904.pdf

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Review: Mate Preferences and Their Behavioral Manifestations (Annual Review of Psychology, 2019)

Men apparently assess and evaluate levels of sexual activity by a woman prior to long-term commitment—behavior that would have been observable or known through social reputation in the small-group lifestyles of our ancestors. Past behavior is a good predictor of future behavior, and having a large number of sex partners prior to marriage is a statistical predictor of infidelity after marriage (16/34)

https://www.annualreviews.org/docserver/fulltext/psych/70/1/annurev-psych-010418-103408.pdf

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Review: Infidelity in romantic relationships (Current Opinion in Psychology, 2017)

Table 1: Factors found to facilitate infidelity.

Number of sex partners: Greater number of sex partners before marriage predicts infidelity

Attitudes: Permissive attitude toward sex; Decoupling of sex and love, closeness; Willingness to have casual sex

Numerous individual characteristics have been associated with infidelity, including personality variables such as neuroticism, prior history of infidelity, number of sex partners before marriage… As might be expected, attitudes toward infidelity specifically, permissive attitudes toward sex more generally and a greater willingness to have casual sex and to engage in sex without closeness, commitment or love (i.e., a more unrestricted sociosexual orientation) are also reliably related to infidelity (2/5)

https://fincham.info/papers/2016-infidelity-cop.pdf

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Study: The Relationship between Sexual and Emotional Promiscuity and Infidelity (Athens Journal of Social Sciences, 2017)

Sexual promiscuity was significantly positively correlated with emotional promiscuity [r(356) = .261, p < .001], as well with sexual infidelity [r(323) = .595, p < .001] and emotional infidelity [r(323) = .676, p < .001], indicating that sexually promiscuous participants also tend to be emotionally promiscuous, and sexually and emotionally unfaithful. (6/14)

In terms of the sexual domain, results showed that there is also a positive correlation between sexual promiscuity and sexual infidelity, stating that individuals that tend to be more sexually promiscuous also tend to be more sexually unfaithful. (9/14)

Additionally, results demonstrated that sexual and emotional promiscuous individuals, also tend to be sexual and emotional unfaithful, being all these domains related to each other. (11/14)

https://www.athensjournals.gr/social/2017-4-4-3-Pinto.pdf

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Book: Cheap Sex: The Transformation of Men, Marriage, and Monogamy (Oxford University Press)

When compared with their peers who report fewer partners, those who self- report 20 or more in their lifetime are:

Twice as likely to have ever been divorced (50 percent vs. 27 percent)

Three times as likely to have cheated while married (32 percent vs. 10 percent)

Substantially less happy with life (p < 0.05) (pg.89)

https://archive.ph/x1xb5

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Book: The Evolution Of Desire: Strategies of Human Mating (Basic Books, 2016)

Indeed, the single best predictor of extramarital sex is premarital sexual permissiveness—people who have many sex partners before marriage tend to be more unfaithful than those who have few sex partners before marriage (pg.108).

https://archive.ph/k554y

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Report: Before “I Do”: What Do Premarital Experiences Have to Do with Marital Quality Among Today’s Young Adults? (The National Marriage Project at the University of Virginia)

Further, for women, having had fewer sexual partners before marriage was also related to higher marital quality. This doesn’t mean that sex before marriage will doom a marriage, but sex with many different partners may be risky if you’re looking for a high-quality marriage. (5/26)

https://nationalmarriageproject.org/sites/g/files/jsddwu1276/files/2025-06/SOCI221_NMP_BeforeIDoReport.pdf

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Study: Sowing wild oats: Valuable experience or a field full of weeds? (Personal Relationships, 2013)

The research objective was to test whether the number of sexual partners was associated with sexual quality, communication, relationship satisfaction, and relationship stability, while controlling for relationship length, education, race, income, age, and religiosity, using the two competing theories of sexual compatibility and sexual restraint. The results, with a sample of 2,654 married individuals, indicated that the number of sexual partners was associated with lower levels of sexual quality, communication, and relationship stability

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/pere.12009

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Study: Beyond Global Sociosexual Orientations: A More Differentiated Look at Sociosexuality and Its Effects on Courtship and Romantic Relationships (Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 2008)

Sociosexual Behavior

The behavior component, reflecting the quantity of past short-term sexual encounters, shows strong and unique links to the diversity of past romantic and sexual relationships, as well as the occurrence of sexual infidelity… Our results also confirmed the prediction that men and women who had more experience with short-term relationships in the past (i.e., those with high Behavior facet scores) were more likely to have multiple sexual partners and unstable relationships in the future. The behaviorally expressed level of sociosexuality thus seems to be a fairly stable personal characteristic. (19/23)

https://www.larspenke.eu/pdfs/Penke_Asendorpf_2008_-_SOI-R.pdf

.

Study: Predictors of young dating adults’ inclination to engage in extradyadic sexual activities (British Journal of Psychology, 2005)

Participants who had experienced sexual intimacy with a greater number of partners also reported greater extradyadic sex and extradyadic kissing inclination. (14/20)

https://dacemirror.sci-hub.box/journal-article/56b3e1e2b488fe6010438283d6356663/mcalister2005.pdf

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Study: Sex differences in morphological predictors of sexual behavior (Evolution and Human Behavior, 2003)

The high correlations for males (r = .85) and females (r = .79) between reported numbers of sex partners and EPC partners may bear on questions of both paternity and abandonment in the face of infidelity… But the question remains: does promiscuity predict infidelity?… The resultant number (reported non-EPC sex partners) was still highly correlated with number of EPC partners (females: r = .67, n = 56, P < .01; males: r = .50, n = 59, P < .01), suggesting that promiscuity is in fact a good predictor of infidelity. Indeed, promiscuity among females accounted for almost twice as much variance in infidelity (r² = .45) as it did for males (r² = .25). (5/6)

https://www.psy.uq.edu.au/%7Euqbziets/Hughes2003%20-%20Shoulder%20to%20hip%20ratio.pdf

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The first two charts are sort of meaningless, because they measure non-marital partners. Of course people who get divorced have more non-marital partners, because they start the dating process over once they get divorced. Most people have a few non-marital partners then get married. Those who get divorced have additional non-marital partners until they marry again. The divorce is what creates the opportunity for more non-marital partners.

The premarital chart is more relevant, because it doesn't include post-divorce partners, so let's analyze that one.

A premarital partner count of 0 means that the woman didn't sleep with anyone, including her husband, until after she got married. If she had slept with her husband before getting married, her premarital partner count would have been 1. This group of women are almost certainly very religious, though there are exceptions to every rule.

A premarital partner count of 1 typically means that the woman has only ever slept with the man she married but had sex before they actually got married, as the vast majority of couples do.

The chart tells us that a woman who waits until after she's married to have sex with her husband is far less likely to get divorced than a woman who only has sex with her husband, but does it before marriage. That's almost certainly due to religion. The women who don't believe in having sex with the man they're marrying until after their wedding also don't believe in divorce. These aren't just mainstream religious women (most of them have sex before marriage). These are deeply religious women.

The most interesting thing is that women with a premarital count of 1 are more likely to get divorced that women with a premarital count of 5-9. So if you meet a virgin today, date for a while, have sex in a committed relationship, then get married, your odds of divorce are higher than if you marry a woman with a premarital count of 5-9.

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theres really no reason to perseverate over an n count. it really shouldn’t cause you any concern. if you just get this inexplicable ick from someone with a high n count, just figure out their n count to the best of your ability, let your ick feeling determine whether you’re cool with it or not. you really don’t need to delve into the nature of high n women or whatever. is this person icky? or not?

if you’re concerned about n count because you’re worried about the nature of high n women, and how you’ll be swindled, cheated on, beta buxxed, dead bedroomed, etc you’d best rely on better methods to make these judgements. a swindler who is both capable and willing to lie to you for months or years is going to have no trouble lying about an n count. if you just pick based on an n count you think is true, the ones who confidently and honestly tell you a higher number are less likely to be swindlers. you’ll need to use your judgement.

as for being dead bedroomed…this has absolutely nothing to do with n counts, i have no idea why anyone would think this. just use your bedroom to determine if you’ll be deadbedroomed. if you want to be proactive, i guess you can try to suss out potential physiological concerns. how late do women in her family get menopause? does she take meds that affect libido like antidepressants? if not, is she on the path to taking those meds?

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Of course, but it's also often an attempt to shame someone out of their rational concerns.

Insecurity is insecurity. If you have rational concerns it's something else.

And not everyone needs to leave their comfort zone.

Not everyone needs to have a life

I mentioned disappointment because it's the least harmful result of leaving your comfort zone.

There could be many more problems.

Yeah that's having a life

If this concerns someone's directly clinically diagnosed psychiatric condition, then yes, these people need to work with psychologists and psychiatrists.

For the rest, their mental health is fine.

That's like seeing an overweight, physically weak person, who can't run for 10 minutes to save their lives, but they don't need to take care of their bodies because they aren't Ill.

Need to take care of your physical and mental health outside of just fixing diseases.

[–]Cultural-Ad-84862 points 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Insecurity is insecurity. If you have rational concerns it's something else.

I'm glad you agree here, so there's nothing wrong with "insecurity." Especially since we don't really have to use that term.

Not everyone needs to have a life

A bad life, of course.

Yeah that's having a life

Of course, just like life is not about having a sea of problems and grief in life, but trying to live in a way that makes you comfortable.

That's like seeing an overweight, physically weak person, who can't run for 10 minutes to save their lives, but they don't need to take care of their bodies because they aren't Ill.

In fact, those who suffer from obesity can be recognized as such according to objective criteria.

Just as there are treatments for the problems that lead to obesity and for obesity itself.

I'm more talking about someone approaching someone with a BMI of around 22 and persistently declaring that they are obese and urgently need to lose weight. Obviously, this isn't said with the best of intentions.

[–]autistic_cool_kid1 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Cultural-Ad-84861 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I disagree here, I think a good life is a life where you experience things, of course that's just an opinion

I'd agree with this if it were a guarantee of only good things in life.

But unfortunately, that's not the case, and the chances of getting screwed are still high.

Bad comparison. If we are talking about actual insecurities then you're not healthy

No, the comparison is actually perfect, and you kind of confirmed it.

"Insecurities" are usually not a real diagnosis and are not directly related to any real problems. Moreover, there is still a healthy version of insecurities based on real causes, and they are also healthy.

This is especially true given that many BluePs here are classified as "insecurities," and that this is often just an empty accusation and an attempt to shame.

The same goes for accusing someone of autism, neuroticism, and so on; this is also often an attempt to shame rather than a real diagnosis.

[–]autistic_cool_kid1 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'd agree with this if it were a guarantee of only good things in life.

But unfortunately, that's not the case, and the chances of getting screwed are still high.

Yeah, that's life. It's the good and the bad. Staying inside your bedroom all your life might be stable but for me that's not what I see as a good life

"Insecurities" are usually not a real diagnosis and are not directly related to any real problems. Moreover, there is still a healthy version of insecurities based on real causes, and they are also healthy.

Never said it was a diagnosis. But yeah insecurities do lead to suffering.

If you're jealous without any good reason, you suffer and you make your partner suffer for no good reason. Free suffering.

If you're jealous for real reasons, like they cheated on you, that's not insecurity, that's a boundary which got crossed.

This is especially true given that many BluePs here are classified as "insecurities," and that this is often just an empty accusation and an attempt to shame.

You are presuming of the people's intentions here. When I say that high N count issues come from insecurity, I'm not shaming. It's okay to have insecurities. But the first step is to be self aware and honest about it.

The same goes for accusing someone of autism, neuroticism, and so on; this is also often an attempt to shame rather than a real diagnosis.

This makes me laugh every time because I know what autism is and people thinking it makes you worse of a person sounds like monkeys judging humans for being bad at being a monkey

[–]Cultural-Ad-84862 points 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Yeah, that's life. It's the good and the bad. Staying inside your bedroom all your life might be stable but for me that's not what I see as a good life

Of course, just like getting into a terrible marriage where you won't be respected can't be called a good life either.

Never said it was a diagnosis. But yeah insecurities do lead to suffering.

And yet you confidently speak of some kind of "suffering"

If you're jealous for real reasons, like they cheated on you, that's not insecurity, that's a boundary which got crossed.

I agree, but it can still be called insecurity and there is nothing wrong with that.

You are presuming of the people's intentions here

No, I could literally quote countless people here who do this on purpose.

Many of them have openly admitted that they come here simply to troll men, but I can't give examples because it's against the rules of this subreddit.

When I say that high N count issues come from insecurity, I'm not shaming. It's okay to have insecurities. But the first step is to be self aware and honest about it.

Again, there is a clear negative connotation from the word "insecurity", but this should not be here.

This makes me laugh every time because I know what autism is and people thinking it makes you worse of a person sounds like monkeys judging humans for being bad at being a monkey

This... I don't quite understand...

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Ya, no. Maybe your wife does. You are doing what you are accusing manosphere types of doing, propagating bullshit redditisms you read online.

Most heterosexual women who watch porn are not watching lesbian porn, they are watching porn with the objects of their desires in it.

Thats like saying heterosexual women want to read smut about lesbians... no.

But I will throw you are a bone, I am in no way saying that women consume the same types or the same amounts of porn at the same levels.

But women are susceptible to cultures. When porn is no longer a nudie magazine, but a reflection of culture, of lifestyle, like music, fashion, but a culture unseen, untalked about, it will effect them if they consume it. Just like social media which also seems "not real" compared to day to day lives, yet has massive consequences.

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Pornhub data, particularly its widely cited annual "Year in Review" reports, provides a broad overview of user traffic and search trends based on billions of data points. However, experts and analysts advise caution when interpreting this data as a true reflection of real-world demographics or sexual preferences due to several significant limitations: Limitations on Accuracy and Interpretation Anonymity and Incognito Mode: A large volume of users access adult sites via incognito or private browsing modes, and without saving cookies. This practice makes it difficult to track unique users over time or across sessions, potentially leading to the same person being counted multiple times, which skews the "user" data. Lack of Personal Demographics: The data is primarily based on automated data collection (e.g., search terms, watch times, location via IP) rather than verified demographic information like age, gender, or relationship status. While the company can analyze which browser is used or general locations, it often lacks verified personal data, making it difficult to draw accurate conclusions about specific user groups. Age Verification Evasion: Minors can easily access the site using simple workarounds like VPNs, bypassing geographical blocks and age verification measures. This means the data for certain demographics (e.g., "teenager" searches) may include contributions from underage users, despite the site's intent to restrict them. Conflation with Real-World Behavior: The data reflects online search and viewing habits on that specific platform, not necessarily a person's entire sexual reality or behavior. External organizations like the Internet Watch Foundation (IWF) have warned that data out of context can be misleading, and online searches do not always correlate with real-world actions or the demographics of content creators. Data Normalization and Selection Bias: The company has control over which metrics it chooses to publicize in its "Insights" reports, and may normalize data to prevent identification or make itself look like a better investment to advertisers. The published reports focus on high-level, often "bizarre" or sensational, trends that generate public interest rather than providing comprehensive, raw data for scientific analysis.

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The data backs you up, FYI. Research shows couples' N-counts as being significantly correlated

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/5964280_Matching_in_Sexual_Experience_for_Married_Cohabitating_and_Dating_Couples

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5431278/

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/epidemiology-and-infection/article/patterns-of-sexual-mixing-with-respect-to-social-health-and-sexual-characteristics-among-heterosexual-couples-in-england-analyses-of-probability-sample-survey-data/47AB8AAC10D08B121A8AB132497E5ACF

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/37653148/ https://time.com/6311685/study-couples-sharing-traits/

First has r=0.53 (for married couples, other categories of couples are lower), second r=0.36, third r=0.57, fourth r=0.32 (it btw also tracks age when they lost virginity, and that one's 0.42)

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A coordinator is not a leader. You should read Noam Chomsky, he talks about what a real democracy would look like. In that, representatives (not leaders), would come to a city or a county or any community, and ask them what THEY need, and then go and try to get that Congress.

"Leaders" come to the community saying "here's my plan, vote for me". Not "what do you need". Leadership centralises power. A coordinator doesn't have much power because the power only exists from the buy in of those around him. And they can at any moment refuse to stop following him (I'm thinking here of for eg a small firm of really talented engineers who build a co-op, and they elect their coordinator but can at any moment refuse to obey the coordinator.)

Y'alls have brainrot on the idea of leadership. It's fed to you at every point. In schools and unis. At corporate events. All corporations espouse leadership as a value. And it's all so stupid. Corporations are dictatorial, and modern democracies are barely democratic. Leadership as an idea is bs.

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“single motherhood has been declining, driven by a decrease in teenage births and a longer-term drop in the out-of-wedlock birthrate since its peak in 2008, although single motherhood still remains common. The decline is most pronounced among teenagers, and Black and Hispanic women, as well as those without a college degree. Meanwhile, the rate has slightly increased for older, college-educated women, and the overall share of single-parent families has leveled off or declined since peaking in the mid-1990s to early 2000”

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/09/upshot/out-of-wedlock-births-are-falling-except-among-older-women.html

https://medium.com/esme-com-resources-and-support-for-single-moms/its-time-to-stop-spreading-lies-about-single-moms-12648c0d814f#:~:text=The%20single%20mothers%20we've,glory%2C%20is%20here%20to%20stay.

Oops! Looks like those RP talking points from 20 years ago are outdated!

You got played again!

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Women: sometimes don't like high n-count men, often don't like low n-count men

That's not true. Studies show that high n count in a negative for both men and women. One of the studies notes in its summary that men were judged more negatively for high n count than women were.

Women prefer low n count men over high n count men overall. In the third study, participants were given a choice of partners with a count of 0, 1, and 12 for casual sex, short-term relationships, and long-term relationships. They did this for both low-value partners and high value partners.

Women strongly prefer a high-value man to a low-value man regardless of n count. Notably, men also strongly prefer a high-value woman to a low-value woman regardless of n count.
Women slightly prefer the high-value 12 count man over the high-value 0 count man for casual sex, but prefer the high-value 0 count man for short-term and long-term relationships.
Women prefer the high-value 1 count man over the high-value 12 count for short-term and long-term relationships. It's a tie for casual sex (i.e., women generally don't care about n count when it comes to casual sex).

The preferences of men and women were actually pretty similar with two notable differences:

Men prefer the high-value 12 count woman over the high-value 0 or 1 count woman for casual sex. While women don't penalize men for high count when it comes to casual sex, men actually prefer high count women for casual sex.
For a long-term relationships, men prefer a high-value woman with count of 0 over a high-value woman with a count of 1, while women slightly prefer a high-value man with a count of 1 over a high-value man with a count of 0. For these relationships, men place a premium on virginity, while women view it as a slight negative. Interestingly, men also view virginity as a slight negative for a low-value woman (i.e., they would slightly prefer a low-value woman with a count of 1).

https://www.psypost.org/new-body-count-study-reveals-how-sexual-history-shapes-social-perceptions/

https://www.psypost.org/new-study-identifies-the-ideal-number-of-sexual-partners-according-to-social-norms/

https://web.archive.org/web/20250325155841/https://www.uncp.edu/sites/default/files/purc/posters/courtney_britt.pdf

[–]Lift_and_Lurk2 points 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Reasonable_Mouse789No Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago (25 children) | Copy Link

[–]Excellent_Badger123Purple Pill Woman [score hidden] 8 months ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Fancy-Scallion-6682Purple Pill Man 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]Reasonable_Mouse789No Pill Man 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]Fancy-Scallion-6682Purple Pill Man 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]autistic_cool_kidChad 38yo (Man) | Buddhistpilled & Autismaxxed 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]Intelligent-InsightBlue Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]autistic_cool_kidChad 38yo (Man) | Buddhistpilled & Autismaxxed 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Intelligent-InsightBlue Pill Man [score hidden] 8 months ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]AngeAwareBlue Pill Woman and the Prisoner of This Subreddit 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Reasonable_Mouse789No Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]AngeAwareBlue Pill Woman and the Prisoner of This Subreddit 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]Reasonable_Mouse789No Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]AngeAwareBlue Pill Woman and the Prisoner of This Subreddit 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]autistic_cool_kidChad 38yo (Man) | Buddhistpilled & Autismaxxed 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]ta06012022Man 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]Reasonable_Mouse789No Pill Man 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Reasonable_Mouse789No Pill Man 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]ta06012022Man 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I've pretty much always waited until two days after the first date to text. If she texted sooner, I typically deferred meeting again.

When I was actively dating, I usually lined up one date for Friday and another date for Saturday. So typically dates with the same woman on two consecutive days wasn't an option. I also travel for work a lot during the week, which means the following weekend was typically the next available option.

Also, when you do two first dates in a weekend, you have to prioritize one of them for a second date. Sometimes that's based on preference and other times it's based on logistics like work and travel schedules. I think it's typically very difficult to schedule second dates with both within 48 hours. Being able to do that 100% of the time is surprising logistically.

[–]Corbast7Blue woman / Feminist + Leftist / no war but class war 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]PM_ME_ZED_BARABlue Pill Man (gayyy, high n, in LTR) 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]ta06012022Man 3 points4 points5 points 8 months ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]ThatBitchARetired Promiscuous Woman 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]Reasonable_Mouse789No Pill Man 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]attendquoiwoman....pills are dumb 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Reasonable_Mouse789No Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago (34 children) | Copy Link

[–]stockingsinrainbootspills are brainrot - woman 3 points4 points5 points 8 months ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]fiftypoundpuppyCertified Good Boy | Certified Puppyphile ♀ 4 points5 points6 points 8 months ago (13 children) | Copy Link

[–]Fancy-Scallion-6682Purple Pill Man 3 points4 points5 points 8 months ago (12 children) | Copy Link

[–]fiftypoundpuppyCertified Good Boy | Certified Puppyphile ♀ 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[–]Fancy-Scallion-6682Purple Pill Man 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[–]fiftypoundpuppyCertified Good Boy | Certified Puppyphile ♀ 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]Fancy-Scallion-6682Purple Pill Man 3 points4 points5 points 8 months ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]fiftypoundpuppyCertified Good Boy | Certified Puppyphile ♀ 2 points3 points4 points 8 months ago (7 children) | Copy Link

Again I'm projecting but

It comes across as "not as into him sexually". Like, for us, being desired only for sex is like the highest form of validation.

You can't speak for all men. There are men who are secure with themselves and what they offer that they don't need constant reassurance via outside validation

If someone then makes you wait

I'm not "making him wait." I hate this phrasing. When you "make someone wait" that implies they were owed something at a certain time, sometimes at a time that has passed. My dentist makes me wait. My internet installer makes me wait.

I'm not "making him wait," because he's not owed sex at a certain time. I'm having sex with him when I want to.

Your comments are a fantastic example of why insecure needy neurotic men should be avoided, and confident self-assured men are better. Despite constant attempts by men on this sub to paint the latter as bad choices and the former as the best.

[–]Fancy-Scallion-6682Purple Pill Man 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]fiftypoundpuppyCertified Good Boy | Certified Puppyphile ♀ 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]Fancy-Scallion-66821 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]fiftypoundpuppy1 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I know but

It can.

And that's the fear.

How do you know for sure that she's actually as much into me sexually as she was with the casual sex guy, because

Some women definitely do get into relationships with guys they're not as into sexually

As with their past partners.

Brutal.

Why does it matter?

Let's take a hypothetical.

You have a relationship with a woman. You enjoy the sex with her. You think your sex life is good. She treats you with affection. She initiates sex occasionally. Things are good. You're satisfied.

Now you hear through the grapevine that she was doing all kinds of wild and crazy things with another person. And all of a sudden - even though literally nothing has changed between you guys - all of a sudden you're extremely unhappy with the exact same sex life you were happy with 2 minutes prior.

Isn't that kind of silly?

I don't understand the idea that what you're happy with should be a matter of completely unrelated relationships rather than exactly and only what occurs between you and that person.

And let's say even for the sake of argument that women only entered into relationships with men who they felt the maximal sexual attraction to and no one else ever. Are men really going to be happy with that outcome?

I find it really hard to believe that the vast majority of men would take a good relationship with a decent sex life over being sexless for their entire lives. But I'm not a man, soo... 🤷🏿

BTW I personally only pursue relationships with those men I feel that way about. You can guess how happy men here are about women as picky and exclusionary as myself lmaooo

[–]Fancy-Scallion-66821 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Isn't that kind of silly?

Depends on how much validation matters to you. And how much you compare yourself to others.

For me, I'd be shattered because I would constantly feel inferior to those other guys. My mind would make up movies and play them in my head, constantly.

I don't understand the idea that what you're happy with should be a matter of completely unrelated relationships rather than exactly and only what occurs between you and that person. If I ate dinner at a restaurant and I enjoyed the meal, other people talking about how much better those items were at another restaurant wouldn't retroactively make my meal taste badly.

See, think of the man as the head chef/owner of the restaurant. You know how big of an ego chefs have. They're obsessive to the point of abuse of their employees in search of perfection. Why does it matter. They'll nitpick about the tiniest detail. Why does it matter? Because it feeds their ego. Fine dining restaurant with fancy exotic dishes are less about feeding the customer than they are about awing the customer with the chef's skill and imagination. It comes down to what defines your self worth.

And for a lot of men, what defines their self worth is in respect to other men. So when they feel a woman doesn't want them as intensely as she did other men, that shatters them.

I feel (a lot of) women don't get this because y'all get validation of being desirable even when you don't want it to, to the point that it's creepy and you'd rather it stop.

Men get almost none. I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I've been called cute/good-looking/desirable. And of those times, I doubt 90% of them because they were said by friends and friends are obligated to be nice to you.

And let's say even for the sake of argument that women only entered into relationships with men who they felt the maximal sexual attraction to and no one else ever. Are men really going to be happy with that outcome?

I think a lot of men would. The ones that don't are incels and misogynists that I disagree with.

I find it really hard to believe that the vast majority of men would take a good relationship with a decent sex life over being sexless for their entire lives. But I'm not a man, soo... 🤷🏿

I can't speak on this for all men tbh, I too wonder what would most men prefer. But I know with certainty though, that if a woman isn't into them sexually as much as she was with past partners, then it bothers the fuck out of them. And from my own introspection, I can say that for me it's because I crave validation and am insecure. So I suspect this is the case for all the men who this topic bothers. Which leads me to suspect that a lot of men would rather be alone than be sexually settled for. That's my reasoning.

But then, I could be.

Projecting

[–]fiftypoundpuppy2 points 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Depends on how much validation matters to you. And how much you compare yourself to others.

For me, I'd be shattered because I would constantly feel inferior to those other guys. My mind would make up movies and play them in my head, constantly.

Once again, I don't understand the idea or concept of existing as a person with zero internal standards or desires or requirements for what you want, only requiring the exact same behavior as someone else.

If you want wild crazy sex, then pursue someone who has wild crazy sex with you.

If you want decent regular sex with genuine enthusiasm, then pursue someone who has decent regular sex with genuine enthusiasm with you.

All of these make sense.

But the idea of having zero internal guidelines or ideas about what you want and having all of your standards purely determined by what someone did with an entirely different person is so fucking weird to me. Like in an abstract object permanence way. Your standards don't exist until you know what a different relationship was like.

It's just so bizarro to me

See, think of the man as the head chef/owner of the restaurant. You know how big of an ego chefs have. They're obsessive to the point of abuse of their employees in search of perfection. Why does it matter. They'll nitpick about the tiniest detail. Why does it matter? Because it feeds their ego. Fine dining restaurant with fancy exotic dishes are less about feeding the customer than they are about awing the customer with the chef's skill and imagination. It comes down to what defines your self worth.

Relationships are not that deep. They really aren't. Most men are not this neurotic. This mindset sucks all of the air out of the room and all of the fun out of relationships, which already require significant effort from both parties.

And for a lot of men, what defines their self worth is in respect to other men. So when they feel a woman doesn't want them as intensely as she did other men, that shatters them.

That's a choice to let this define their self-worth. Only they can change that.

I feel (a lot of) women don't get this because y'all get validation of being desirable even when you don't want it to, to the point that it's creepy and you'd rather it stop.

Men wanting our holes isn't any more "desirability" than a woman wanting you for your wallet.

That's not about us as people. That's about their compulsive sex drive, and as such it's worthless as validation.

Men get almost none. I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of times I've been called cute/good-looking/desirable. And of those times, I doubt 90% of them because they were said by friends and friends are obligated to be nice to you.

Women aren't as driven to go out of our way to rate, rank, evaluate, and share our reviews of the appearances of others. We might compliment a particular look, as in hair/makeup/clothing/styling. But it's a uniquely male imperative to share your feelings about how hot (and oftentimes, how ugly) someone is directly to that person - at least, in a non-dating capacity.

I think a lot of men would. The ones that don't are incels and misogynists that I disagree with.

Agree to disagree 🤷🏿

I can't speak on this for all men tbh, I too wonder what would most men prefer. But I know with certainty though, that if a woman isn't into them sexually as much as she was with past partners, then it bothers the fuck out of them. And from my own introspection, I can say that for me it's because I crave validation and am insecure. So I suspect this is the case for all the men who this topic bothers. Which leads me to suspect that a lot of men would rather be alone than be sexually settled for. That's my reasoning.

But then, I could be.

Projecting

There's a lot of men on this sub who regularly make comments to the effect that women need to lower their standards and fuck/pair up with them. They say they don't want to be settled for in one breath, but also want women to donate charity pussy.

[–]Fancy-Scallion-66821 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

There's a lot of men on this sub who regularly make comments to the effect that women need to lower their standards and fuck/pair up with them. They say they don't want to be settled for in one breath, but also want women to donate charity pussy.

I disagree with every one of them. Lowkey, hate them too. Plus they are inconsistent. They can't want women to lower their standards and also feel bad that a woman wanted someone else more than she wants him. They don't get to have it both ways. I am in complete agreement with you.

But the idea of having zero internal guidelines or ideas about what you want and having all of your standards purely determined by what someone did with an entirely different person is so fucking weird to me. Like in an abstract object permanence way. Your standards don't exist until you know what a different relationship was like

What if I told you that you have internal guidelines for what you want sexually, but above and beyond that you have a need for validation that comes from how you rank against other men. Like suppose I get that validation from a woman but the sex doesn't feel good to me, I'd still leave. So it's not a lack of internal standards as much as it is internal standards but with an overarching need for sexual validation on top of that.

That's not about us as people. That's about their compulsive sex drive, and as such it's worthless as validation.

Maybe. But I have seen ugly women cry about not getting even the creepy kind of attention. I legit have. So I think we all crave validation, just that the ones who have it stop caring about it. For eg, I used to care about how intelligent people thought I was when I was a kid. Now after 20+ years of intelligent people telling me that I'm smart, people who did PhD in nobel Prize winning labs telling me I'm smart, every single one of my therapists telling me I'm smart, friends telling me they initially didn't want to be friends with me because they thought my intellect was intimidating, I'm basically over it. I don't care if anyone thinks I'm intelligent or a dunce. I think (a lot) of women have it the same way with being validated sexually. Men want to have sex with you is a fact you take for granted. Women want to have sex with me is something I don't even know is true.

Relationships are not that deep. They really aren't. Most men are not this neurotic. This mindset sucks all of the air out of the room and all of the fun out of relationships, which already require significant effort from both parties.

I would argue that different people want different things from relationships.

At the very least I'm sure even you will agree that it definitely bothers a lot of men if they feel that a woman is not as into them sexually as she was into other men. Clearly they want to feel like they are the best. And clearly that's a ton of men. Even the ones who do get laid.

I don't think there is any one true right way to do a relationship. As long as you're both happy and dedicated to making the other person happy.

But what do I know, I'm still a virgin, and I could just be

Projecting.

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[–]Reasonable_Mouse789No Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 8 months ago (11 children) | Copy Link

My options as a guy on a dating app:

I tell someone I want to fuck as an opener. This might be dangerous for me or lead to catfishing.
I meet up in person at a nice outdoor area for a walk and chat for an hour before making out. Highly effective, free, and safer on my part. It’s not like they’d change their mind about me if they would’ve been interested back when I first messaged them on the app
Some women also just go on a date or two with me, and then they want to hookup without committing to me. Free sex is not typically something I decline
Also, obviously, sometimes people are just going to have sex in general without it meaning anything. It happens. If she asks me afterwards whether we’re casual or serious then I’ll know I didn’t misinterpret anything as super serious

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That's not surprising to me. There's some genetic component to PDs, but it's also learned/unlearned. My hypothesis is that it's a genetic learning disorder combined with an environment that reinforces faulty thinking patterns and some trauma.

I have some sort of "language disorder" where I struggle to put ideas into language that other people are able to follow. While I do have an internal monologue, that's not normally how I think. The way I would describe it is that I think in terms of systems and relationships.

The fact that systems and relationships are not linear makes it very hard to put that into language which is necessarily linear. Tying a lot of points together in a coherent way to "show" another person how something works is quite difficult.

While I am intelligent, it's not just intelligence. There's actually a difference in the way that I process things. My dad was the same way. And, he didn't learn to read until he was in high school. I don't really know what it is because I haven't had the opportunity to be in anyone else's mind -- but I've also been told this a number of times even by other people who are just as intelligent as I am.

People who don't know me very well often think I'm not very intelligent until the predictions I make come true repeatedly.

What about you?

[–]autistic_cool_kid2 points 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I think people see me as very intelligent and I do believe I am intelligent although not necessarily in the same way as everyone. There is something about autistic intelligence that is not "more" but "different". Like we live in 3D while neurotypicals live in 2D.

For example I have near-supernatural abilities to understand people and predict what they do, at least if they are neurotypical, it doesn't work nearly as well with other autistic people.

I have an intellectual job and when my ADHD is under control I absolutely excel at it. On the other hand, I can't drive to save my life (probably mostly the ADHD).

I feel like autism is making me very intelligent but ADHD is dumbing me down, at least for some tasks.

I didn't realise I was autistic until I was about 35. It's only retroactively that everything starts making sense. So many things suddenly explained.

The way you talk you certainly sound intelligent - If I had to guess I'd also think you're on the spectrum too if you didn't tell me you already got assessed (although depending on the country, false negatives can be very very common)

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[–]Fancy-Scallion-66821 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Thought patterns don't lead to sadness and depression. It's a lot more complex than that.

Here's my experience of what happens. Certain thoughts carry emotional weight. The emotion maybe positive or negative. You don't control what that emotion is, and sometimes you don't control when what thought pops up in your head.

Now trying to replace that thought with another thought won't work until the thought you replace it with carries the same or greater emotional weight. This is one reason cognitive therapy doesn't work for me because I know I'm trying to change my thoughts, so whatever thoughts I'm trying to replace feel more authentic than the thoughts I'm trying to replace them with.

And also, sometimes sadness is what's healthier. I can for eg, avoid the sadness of losing a pet by going on a drug and alcohol spree. But some people would say that is unhealthy.

Buddhism would have you believe hope is unhealthy.

What counts as healthy is socially determined and socially constructed. H. G. Wells once wrote a story about a man who wanders into a society of the blind. That society thinks having eyes is unhealthy and try to blind the guy.

So no, I don't agree.

[–]autistic_cool_kid1 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

so whatever thoughts I'm trying to replace feel more authentic than the thoughts I'm trying to replace them with.

I see how this works, but wouldn't you agree that's a logical fallacy? You said it yourself, it "feels" more authentic, it isn't necessarily.

And also, sometimes sadness is what's healthier. I can for eg, avoid the sadness of losing a pet by going on a drug and alcohol spree. But some people would say that is unhealthy

That is entirely true, but only because the alternative is not a different emotion, it's repressing your emotions

Buddhism would have you believe hope is unhealthy.

I don't know so much about Buddhism but I don't think that's true. Buddhism tells you to detach from things, not to be hopeless.

What counts as healthy is socially determined and socially constructed

Partially true. It can also be whatever works for you individually.

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you desire to stop suffering

But only in a very specific way - by achieving what I crave, and then more of it, and then more of it.

There's a chance that once I do get a lot of it, it loses meaning and I stop giving a fuck about it. It's happened in the past with things I wanted and got. I end up taking them for granted.

But until I achieve what I want, I cannot rest.

Somewhat related, did you ever try psychedelics?

Ive said this somewhere else but I'm afraid to try them. Although they are illegal I have a doctor friend who does a lot of drugs and he offered to guide me through them. Apparently yourse supposed to do them with a person around you that you trust. I'm not sure I want to because I fear ego death. The thought of not wanting to be the best lover a woman has ever had is scary.

[–]autistic_cool_kid1 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

But only in a very specific way - by achieving what I crave, and then more of it, and then more of it.

But I thought we agreed that this will not stop the suffering

There's a chance that once I do get a lot of it, it loses meaning and I stop giving a fuck about it. It's happened in the past with things I wanted and got. I end up taking them for granted.

You know, that might just work at least a little bit. If someone desires money before anything, and they get it, sometimes they realise it's not as life changing and they thought.

Ive said this somewhere else but I'm afraid to try them. Although they are illegal I have a doctor friend who does a lot of drugs and he offered to guide me through them. Apparently yourse supposed to do them with a person around you that you trust. I'm not sure I want to because I fear ego death. The thought of not wanting to be the best lover a woman has ever had is scary.

Ego death doesn't happen that often, it's only during the trip, and only at heroic doses.

Frankly it might be a great experience for you if you are ever curious and feel ready for it.

Psychedelics temporarily weaken your strongest mental pathways and temporarily increase your weakest mental pathways. This allows you to experience life during the trip as "being less like you" (but you still have an ego in most cases).

Frankly I would accept the proposition from your friend. I see a very high probability that the experience will make you happier and more stable for the rest of your life, which is something I wish for you.

At the very least it's a fun time and a very interesting thing to experience. Risks exist but are negligible as long as your setting is right.

[–]Fancy-Scallion-66821 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]autistic_cool_kid1 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

That's why I want it all the time. Like, in a relationship, I will have sex with her. And when I do, I want her to tell me that I'm better than anyone else, and it has to be true. I don't know if this is achievable but I crave this.

If you're choosing this path and there is no choice, then I hope you get it.

I had my fair share of "shameful" sex situations (ED from anxiety mostly) but I've lived what you describe, being the absolute best at least with some women (usually the ones that are low N count or the ones I am very compatible with)

My hot poly girlfriend has this look in her eyes after I give her three orgasms one right after the other, which is a mix of "what the fuck" and "I can't believe it"

I've made many women squirt for the first time

I've also done so many threesome I don't remember a lot of them, even a foursome once with three hot girls

It's great for your insecurities (which come from the ego)

But in the end I still decided to put all of this behind me and stop caring about all this.

Ironically, when I stopped caring about being fantastic in bed, I was told that I became even better. And I think this would be the same for you.

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Why is it worse? Because it's not you doing it? I find disqualifying partners for what they can't control a lot nastier than disqualifying them for what they can control.

Any of their standards? Physical attributes? Ambition, career and such? Success in something? Idk, no criminal past. You judge men based on their past and present behavior all the time. You care a lot about what they've done before they met you explicitly (history of cheating/abuse/crime etc) or implicitly (education, fitness, career etc).

Maybe that's what you were taught, but that has nothing to do with this particular discussion, does it? In fact, the logic above doesn't change whether it's men doing it to women, women doing it to men, or men and women doing it together. If you got distracted by "for" in the cooking for someone analogy, we can use another one. Say, somebody for some reason cares if you went to see certain concerts with others in the past, or travelled to certain locations.

[–]wild_squirrel_1 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No, because it’s about ANOTHER MAN. It’s not really about past behavior, it’s about another man being better or just having been there before.

None of those things are pawns, those are preferences. I mean things like “I fucked your mom” or “I slept with your wife,” women’s sexuality is used as a tool in the power games of men. I would find it nasty for women to do that but it’s just not used that way often from what I’ve seen.

I don’t have an issue with behavior based preferences, even like “I take sex seriously so I want someone else that does too” “I want someone who hasn’t been married before” or “it’s a red flag when someone has a ton of short term relationships.” It’s just when it becomes “how many dicks has she had” that it seems weird to me.

[–]Intelligent-Insight1 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

There's no contradiction. It is about past behavior with other men. It's not about better but it is about having been there before yes. Again, absolutely not different in principle from women's preferences that basically require men having been somewhere before (e.g. in school to get a degree or at the gym to get fit)

No difference. And those tools are irrelevant to this particular discussion. And of course it's used the other way around as well - sleeping with or stealing someone's bf/husband.

How is it weird? It's basically the same thing as "I take sex seriously" or I expect someone to prefer the same sex as myself, i.e. no men other than me are involved. Or your example with short term relationships. It's almost literally just that except STR with men are weighted more than those with women. And even then, that could be simply because STR with women are too rare to have any conclusive data.

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Since this conversation is personalized on me; i am not insecure about my appearance, there things bothering me that are mutable and i am working on it (like being at 25-30% body fat)

I am just clearly conscious about my immutable characteristics dragging down chances greatly, or why the things didn’t go well. I don’t also just put the blame on my looks, I grew up within feminine environment, I have had so few male relatives around me when I was growing up. I witnessed my aunts complaining about certain type of men, and it has probably affected me unconsciously in a negative manner. I have had a belief system that I should be pleasant to woman I like and it was the main reason I struggled all along.

If I was a little bit taller I wouldn’t struggle because of my looks, if I grew up in more masculine environment I wouldn’t struggle from my personality. Two negatives don’t make a positive here.

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🤣 you insult people with my sexual history all the time.

I don't insult people of any sexual history. I just list stats and risk factors. If I comment about a group at-large it's only referring to the average, not everyone in the group. Those are not meant as slights towards individuals, or to exceptions to the studied trends.

Do you think not singling me out makes you less shitty?

Well, yes. I don't know much of anything about random people on the internet. Assuming things is wrong.

You're allowed to seek out whatever you want. What's stopping you?

There are plenty of negative social connotations. People, like someone earlier in the thread, accuse the guy of wanting ownership over a woman or something, when often he just wants drama-free harmony. Also many women claim it's simply icky behavior.

Do you genuinely believe that your attitude doesn't affect how you socialize?

Irrelevant, there are active liars, cheaters, and abusers who get tons of women. Wanting good people to have good outcomes is not as symbolic of a bad attitude as these behaviors.

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that you “ruin” a woman by fucking her but you aren’t ruining yourself for the woman you will end up with.

Men can ruin themselves through sex. Its called sex and porn addiction and chasing unrealistic highs.

Theres just less opportunities for men to have sex with wildly different women unless its through fantasy and porn or prostitution.

Women are just very similar, a mans experience with one woman will not be that different to an experience with another woman.

Men are very different, relatively, you have completely passive beta, and crazy ass killers, on different ends of spectrum. Men have a more varied spectrum than women. Just the simple fact that they are leaders of sex, and craft the sexual experience for a woman, means that literally sex is going to be very similar for a man as he goes from woman to woman, where as sex can be RADICALLY different for a woman, as she goes from man to man and samples each mans sexual world that he crafts (or doesn't) for her.

Once a woman gets a taste for a certain type of man she doesn't come back. Everything else feels like "settling" for her.

[–]wild_squirrel_2 points 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

That’s an interesting take, would be interesting for a bi person to chime in. There’s no way for me to know if that’s true.

Do men not have a “best I’ve ever had”?

If that’s the case then only good sex “ruins” a woman. Seems like you just think you’re surely the best a women will ever have so you’ve ruined her for other men, which good for you I guess, that’s again more about male-to-male psychology than women’s sexuality.

I think at the heart of it women like being valued for something other than sex because we are pursued as sex objects so often. Men don’t so being valued for sex is much more important to them.

I can’t find the post right now but it’s a man being like “my wife’s not the most beautiful woman but she’s a great mother!” And I think most women would be hurt by that. I understand why that hurts men’s feelings.

[–]Scary-Mouse48171 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]wild_squirrel_1 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Scary-Mouse48171 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Would men find “I just want him for sex” offensive or a compliment?

You know the answer.

Imagine how powerful I would feel if a married woman wanted to have sex with me on the side while her husband "loves" her.

Men like feeling powerful.

Being desired for sex over love is at the heart of cuckhold anxiety, competition anxiety. All (most) men know they have the capacity to have a woman love them, love is an ethereal quality, its very apparent that humans have HUGE capacities for love. Men are much anxious about having the capacity for a woman to desire them for sex. That appears much more scarce. And women say it themselves, they say the average man is bad at sex, that sex is nothing, sex is only worthwhile with the best men. Women say they have so much "mediocre" sex that they don't even desire it anymore.

What is the human capacity for enjoyable intense sex, that is much more mysterious, taboo and unknown.

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[–]wild_squirrel_1 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It’s men’s problem. Now I get at the end of the day it might just be a reality you have to take into account as a woman if you want to marry a man but it’s still men’s issue.

I don’t fucking want to be the moral decider of society by who I want to have sex with. I don’t want to have sex if you did something good or not have sex if you did something bad. I don’t want men thinking they’ve changed me forever or I’m theirs forever because of sex. It adds so much anxiety to sex that doesn’t need to be there, like I really need to find if someone is “worthy” of sex and I don’t think any men are worthy of possessing me. It makes me feel embarrassed to even have sexual desires, I don’t want a man to own me!

It just is what it is, I’ll never have sexual freedom because men somehow see sex as extremely causal and extremely meaningful at the same time. Women can’t “just get laid” there’s all this baggage attached to it.

[–]Fancy-Scallion-66821 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You know usually it's men who project their insecurities in these discussions, but imo you might be projecting a teensy weensy bit yourself.

For eg, no one said you have to be the moral decider of society. I don't know where that came from.

I don’t want men thinking they’ve changed me forever or I’m theirs forever because of sex. It adds so much anxiety to sex that doesn’t need to be there, like I really need to find if someone is “worthy” of sex and I don’t think any men are worthy of possessing me. It makes me feel embarrassed to even have sexual desires, I don’t want a man to own me!

And that's completely fair. It just means you're incompatible with men like me, who DO crave possession of their partners mind, body, spirit and desire.

It just is what it is, I’ll never have sexual freedom because men somehow see sex as extremely causal and extremely meaningful at the same time.

Different men.

Women can’t “just get laid”

Bruh cmon, woman do it all the time.

I don't mean to be mean to you here, or dismiss your anxieties, but I think if you want to just get laid you'll find men lining up.

[–]wild_squirrel_2 points 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Fancy-Scallion-66821 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Yeah, and then get shamed for the behavior.

By some men, yes. It's wrong of them. But there are men who treat sex like a battlefield where they are trying to beat other guys by becoming the best, but still don't shame women for their desires. You're right, men are afraid that women have so easy access to casual sex. But again the fear is what if she's been with THAT guy or what if she was more into (sexually) the guy she had casual sex with than me etc. Different men deal with it differently. A lot of them resort to shaming. Fuck those guys. Some just have a boundary that they only want to be with a woman who hasn't had casual sex. Others like me will try to become the best a woman has ever had + we try to seek reassurance that she is just as into us sexually as she was with the dudes she had casual sex with etc.

Men will have causal sex (not emotionally meaningful) but still think it means they’ve conquered you (very meaningful)

Tbh I don't know any men who think they have conquered a woman if they have had casual sex with her. It definitely would feel like an accomplishment to get casual sex. But that doesn't mean conquered. Like in my head, to conquer a woman means to dominate her heart and mind, to utterly monopolize her attention. To have her crave me. I want her to be thinking of me even if she's married to someone else and has his kids. That's conquering someone. Maybe the men that you describe exist. I hope they never cross paths with you from this moment onwards.

But it is like that, if you have to wait for someone worthy of conquering you.

I don't understand this. Could you explain.

It would be nice to find one who isn’t.

I hope you do ☺

[–]SleepyPoemsin20201 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Fancy-Scallion-66821 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]SleepyPoemsin20202 points 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Fancy-Scallion-66821 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

If you believe that women become progressively less valuable as a partner the more dicks she has had and you try to go around shoving your dick into women to become THAT GUY, by your own beliefs, you are harming them.

Oh okay that bit, yes that bit is harmful. It's also bs. It's just a way by which men rationalise their insecurity. I personally don't believe this at all. I don't give a fuck about a woman's body count or think she has less value.

What I do FEEL is that if I can become the guy who women lust after, who gives women thr best sex of their lives, rhe kind they will yearn for when they're married to their boring husband and have kids, then I will feel extremely validated. Like my sense of masculinity has been validated. It's a heady feeling that I crave. Genuinely crave. Nothing in this demeans women though.

This might be a nice fantasy, but that's exactly what it is. All of us are replaceable, most of us will never be the best another human being could possibly have.

Nah, Ive read enough reddit threads about this. (Almost) woman has one guy who stood out. Most of the times it's their SO but sometimes it's not. So I disagree with your framing. I believe it should be possible to become this. Atleast it's worth trying. But you have to understand, even if it weren't possible, some people would try anyway because we crave it that much. It's insane how powerful the craving is .

questionable use of time at best.

Eh, I dunno. I think spending your life raising kids is a more questionable use of your time. I'm an antinatalist and serious about this.

[–]SleepyPoemsin20202 points 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Fancy-Scallion-66821 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]SleepyPoemsin20201 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Fancy-Scallion-66821 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Certainly not. But while I enjoy competing, I don't go into it craving to best that'll ever be because that is again...unrealistic.

This is what you're not getting. For me and for a lot of men like me it doesn't matter if it's unrealistic. We crave it regardless. That's why I said rationality doesn't matter. The heart craves what it craves.

Bro, respectfully, consider therapy. I don't think it's healthy to crave it to the level of obsession that you don't view anything else as worthwhile.

Been there, done that, did not help. Here's the issue - I crave ego validation. Therapy can at best help me ignore this desire. But here is the trippy part. I need to WANT to ignore this desire, and only then will therapy work. Any therapist will tell you that the patient has to want to change. But my desire system is completely hijacked by my ego. And my ego won't let me WANT to change. There's no getting out of this.

Again that's why I said, rationality doesn't apply.

[–]SleepyPoemsin20201 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

This is what you're not getting. For me and for a lot of men like me it doesn't matter if it's unrealistic. We crave it regardless. That's why I said rationality doesn't matter. The heart craves what it craves.

I mean I get wanting to be the best at something. Perhaps instead what I'm trying to say is that if you go in with the expectation that it will happen, you're setting yourself up for disappointment. It's not pragmatic in any sense.

Been there, done that, did not help. Here's the issue - I crave ego validation. Therapy can at best help me ignore this desire. But here is the trippy part. I need to WANT to ignore this desire, and only then will therapy work. Any therapist will tell you that the patient has to want to change. But my desire system is completely hijacked by my ego. And my ego won't let me WANT to change. There's no getting out of this.

Again that's why I said, rationality doesn't apply.

I mean, we can make decisions to fight against our emotions and desires and try to change our outlook on life. Or we can choose to give in. We aren't completely at mercy to our desires. But, it is your life to choose how to live.

[–]Fancy-Scallion-66821 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I mean, we can make decisions to fight against our emotions and desires and try to change our outlook on life. Or we can choose to give in. We aren't completely at mercy to our desires. But, it is your life to choose how to live.

That depends on your values imo. My values are completely and utterly towards submitting to my desires. I am ruled by my desires. I genuinely don't see any value in living a life where I have to fight my desires. None, whatsoever. At best I can fight some desires like laziness and go work out, but that's only in service of other desires like looking good etc that I crave more. And values, weirdly enough are also not a choice but something you discover about yourself via Joe you feel. For eg, I don't value raising kids. I know this because I don't feel any bit of excitement about having kids.

I mean I get wanting to be the best at something. Perhaps instead what I'm trying to say is that if you go in with the expectation that it will happen, you're setting yourself up for disappointment. It's not pragmatic in any sense.

It doesn't matter if it isn't pragmatic. Some of us still crave it. It's like a life spent chasing this ending in disappointment and self destruction is still better than a life spent running away from this because of fear of disappointment.

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[–]ThatBitchARetired Promiscuous Woman -1 points0 points1 point 8 months ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]N_Count_CouncilRed pill Man 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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I'm not sure specifically what you're referring to; but part of the problem is how deceptive people are in dating. They'll literally just parrot back to you anything they think you want to hear in order to get you in bed or get whatever it is they want from you. This goes for a lot of men and women.

About 6 years ago I was dating a really gorgeous woman who was a professor at a state school. Dated her for about a month, but she wouldn't do anything physical with me -- not even a kiss. Said she was saving herself for marriage and really pressuring me in that direction. She insisted she was a good Christian girl, etc.

One night, we go out for drinks. I forget what prompted it, but she drunkenly comes clean that she was having sex with another guy who she didn't want to be with. She didn't want to have sex with me because she didn't want me to think she was easy, meanwhile she's got a FWB on the side and I'm not getting any play. 🙄

I think that may have been the first woman who was interested in me that I rejected. Who knows what other lies she would have told me.

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I think every relationship is different. I don't think having sex on the first date vs the third is a good way of evaluating "how into us she is versus other men". You can usually just feel it by how she behaves with you. She can be on her period, have a vaginitis, have a weird living arrangement. Some people will take their time when the date has long-term potential vs just casual sex. Sometime the other person is so interesting you prefer to have 5 hours to chat with them and sometime they are hot and boring so you just want to have sex and not hear them talk.

Women also receive mixed signals from men. Some men will consider a women that sleeps with them too early "not girlfriend material" while other men, like you, will say that she needs to sleep with them as early as she did other guys. Hard to know what your date expects.

[–]Fancy-Scallion-6682Purple Pill Man 1 point2 points3 points 8 months ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Some people will take their time when the date has long-term potential vs just casual sex. Sometime the other person is so interesting you prefer to have 5 hours to chat with them and sometime they are hot and boring so you just want to have sex and not hear them talk.

See the thing is, a lot of men, me included would feel like she thinks we're not as hot as the other guy if this happened. Like if you consider me hot you should want to sleep with me over talking to me.

I think maybe it's because us men feel validated and full of self worth when women desire us. Wanting to talk to us is less validating than wanting sex with us. Women don't get this because for them sexual validation is so readily available that it's practically meaningless.

But still, it doesn't change how men feel. We feel afraid that we might be settled for sexually, and so we try and optimize for things that we think mean that she's actually into us for sex, and not just love and comfort.

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But noo, it's all about him, and you.

I mean we're all the centers of our own little universes. So you can't really blame an individual if they feel that they're not good enough. We are always comparing ourselves against others.

And like I've encountered this opinion before. That sometimes women will have sex with whoever is the nearest safe guy because they're horny. But here's the thing, how would the dude know that. Plus, he could be anxious like me, and would rather prefer to have absolute certainty by actually being with a woman who sleeps with him faster than any other man she has been with.

Like I get that how fast you sleep with someone is an imperfect metric. But whatever it is that he feels is a measure of how much a woman is into him, he could try and max out.

I know that I will never be with a woman I don't feel insane levels of chemistry with, because it would make me feel more reassured that she's into me more than she's into with other dudes.

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Why would we assume the perso who likes sex will give the partner she’s with the great sex

So you believe if women had sex a certain way with a guy in the past she's now obligated to do all the exact same things with you? Newsflash, your not entitled to it buddy. Maybe she felt like trying anal with Chad but that was just a phase. She just might not feel like doing that with you.

You think the attraction to the person your with and other factors can't affect how much you enjoy the sex or how enthusiastic you are to have sex? You can vet for enthusiasm but you can't just expect it or demand it. She's either going to have it for you or she's not. Her being enthusiastic about having sex with some guys doesn't mean she's guaranteed to have that same level of enthusiasm for any guy she has sex with.

[–]Lift_and_Lurk1 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]DietTyrone1 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

no one is obligated, but it’s obvious she likes some things before and found what she liked.

Not everything she likes has to be around sex or sexual attraction. Maybe she wanted just a hot guy before but now wants a stable guy. Maybe when she only considered physical attraction, the "shy nerd" wouldn't have made the cut. Now that she's considering more traits for an LTR, shy nerd now has a shot.

Why wouldn’t she keep doing the things she likes with a guy she likes?!

You're really going to pretend like women don't change their minds and all continue doing the same sex acts they did in college throughout their entire lives? Some might, some might not. I thought you were blue pilled, yet you're arguing in favor of men having this expectation?

people don’t get with people they aren’t attracted to, so if she’s with a guy she’s attracted to him.

Women can get with men for a variety of reasons. Say we had 2 guys, Guy A (hot & confident but no stable career and won't commit long term) and Guy B (shy and nerdy but is high earning Engineer and interested in a serious LTR). At one point a woman could be attracted to Guy A more if she's just looking for a guy she's highly attracted to and not stressed about commitment. At another point in time Guy B might seem like the more desirable long term candidate because he's willing to commit and could make a good husband and father.

Sure, she might be attracted to both guys in different ways, but some of the things she might be attracted to in Guy B, might not be sexual. Which is why you can't just assume her sexual enthusiasm is going to be the exact same for both guys when her sexual attraction to both guys might not be equal and just she might have been willing to try various things out with Guy A doesn't mean she's going to feel like doing them with Guy B, especially if her main motivation in getting with the shy nerd later on is because she's focused on commitment and stability, and not so much just sexual attraction.

[–]Lift_and_Lurk1 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]DietTyrone1 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Bruh do you not smell the insecurity coming off each of these?

If that's what you want to call stating reality. The reality of the situation is you don't know and I don't know. Could be what I said or could be what you said. However, I'm not the one pushing the idea that the woman should be expected to perform whatever types of sex acts she performed in previous relationships.

She’s going to go get what she wants because she can

According to who? She can pick out any male model from GQ and she'll get that guy because she wants him? That's not how that works. She can pick from the men actually interested in her, which won't be all men. There's not even a guarantee that every guy she sleeps with will want a relationship with her. You're on PPD, you know women complain about this.

And maybe you will or maybe you won’t.

Now you're getting it.

But that’s not a her issue.

Could become the guys issue, but that's a different discussion.

It’s a you issue.

Doesn't have to be the guys issue. He can choose to not seriously date the woman if the sexual enthusiasm isn't there. He desire and enthusiasm towards the guy is what matters here, not her past sexual experience because that won't guarantee how attracted she is to the guy or what sex acts she's willing to do in the present.

[–]Lift_and_Lurk1 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

“It doesn’t have to be the guys issue” except if literally is.

What if a dude is just happy, right now with who he’s with? No outside “opinions”, no internal “but what if she did, what if she was”

Just a guy with a girl he likes and she like him and they enjoy their lives with each other? What the fuck is the problem with that?

No one else’s business, no one else’s issues. Just two people who care about each other and do what makes each other happy?

Oh but then he’d never have to feel insecure about measuring up to…. Who? The losers in the internet? The “guys” who they wished they could feel validation from in real life who wish they could fuck her but can’t? To mommy and daddy’s approval?! Seriously who the fuck’s opinion matters?

But that that would mean she got to live life that all the haters with FOMO wish they could have and she STILL got to have a happy relationship. And pill poppers can’t have that, can they? They haven’t he the “alphas” the “winners” the “HVM” in a world that they imagine, but can’t tell you what the scoreboard looks like.

What a fucking joke

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I guess it depends on how you define “plenty”. In raw numbers, sure, because the US is a big country. Even a small percentage of people yields a large number when applied to a large population.

But it’s not most women. Half of American women are legally married or living with a partner by 26. Some additional % are in exclusive relationships but not yet married or living together.

Around 2/3 of American women are married or living with a partner by 29. Again, some additional % are in exclusive relationships but not yet married or living together.

Keep in mind that people typically date for years before getting engaged or moving in together, so these women have typically been “off the market” for years.

For the most part, people who choose to have their fun have it while very young.

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[–]ta060120221 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I’m sure it’s a scenario that happens, but it seems far from the most common pairing.

There were some girls in college who definitely hooked up quite a few times. I was in a frat, so generally the girls I’m talking about are attractive sorority girl types, who hooked up with attractive frat boy types.

They’re generally in their mid 20s today, and when I look on instagram, most of them are now in relationships with guys who look just like slightly older versions of the frat guys they hooked up with in college. They’re fact is, when you graduate and move off to a new city, no one really knows anything about your past, so even if these guys do care, it’s unlikely they would know.

In general people date people who are of similar attractiveness, so it makes sense these girls aren’t with guys who appear to be shy nerds today.

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CROSSPOST FROM AN OPEN MARRIAGE REGRET SUB

I bedded my new boyfriend’s swinger parents while dating my ex

Op here am I wrong in believing this is bad advice and he has a right to know here is the article below:

to his parents after we’d been dating for couple of months, so we arranged to go over for Sunday lunch.

I couldn’t believe it when I walked into his house and to my horror realised they were the couple I had been swinging with.

By the look on their faces they knew who I was too.

We kept quiet and I didn’t have the opportunity to talk to them alone that day.

How do I tell my new boyfriend?

DEIDRE SAYS: You don’t have to.

I would be surprised if his parents ever utter a word about it.

You may feel the urge to clear your conscience by confessing all to your boyfriend, but what would it do to his relationship with his parents, which is probably more important to him long-term than your brand-new relationship is right now?

His parents’ swinging is nothing to do with your boyfriend in fact and you’ve finished your involvement with that scene.

What might be sensible is to reassure his parents about that if it looks as though yours is going to be a long-term relationship.

If something crops up though, which makes you decide your boyfriend should know, then at least warn his parents first.

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The question is confusing, because you're conflating red/blue pill with liberal/conservative. Blue pill is just people with mainstream beliefs, which is most people including most conservatives. But if you're asking who has higher n counts between liberals and conservatives, the answer is likely complicated.

People who are religious tend to have fewer partners. Those people also tend to vote for Republican candidates, but there are exceptions. As an example, Conservative Jews in the US also tend to have religious beliefs that result in fewer partners, but they also vote heavily for Democrats, as they tend to agree with that party on fiscal and social justice issues. So are they conservative or liberal?

The US black community tends to be very socially conservative and often religious (anti-abortion, less supportive of gay rights), but votes overwhelmingly for Democratic candidates primarily for fiscal and social justice related reasons. Are those voters liberal or conservative? They're certainly not socially liberal, but they have some of the lowest rates of marriage and highest rates of single parent households in the country.

Among white Americans, rates of single motherhood are much higher among non-college-educated women than among college-educated women. At the same time, non-college-educated women are much more conservative and vote Republican at much higher rates. The question is whether rates of single motherhood are indicative of greater promiscuity or other factors are at play.

Anecdotally, it seems to me that rural conservative women are more promiscuous. I look at my cousins in rural western Pennsylvania. The girls they date certainly aren't the types I would want to bring home to mom. A couple are single moms, including one with kids from two different dads. One is a recovering opioid addict who at one point worked as a stripper. They're all die hard MAGA supporters too (as are the vast majority of voters in their dying formerly steel producing county). Those women are night and day from the liberal professional women I know in NYC.

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[–]Expert_Profession9511 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Actually, it’s on both sides, and my side has proof all over PubMed and in Biology textbooks. Lol

Sounds like the burden is on your side, since you avoided it.

Again, I never said women don’t enjoy sex or aren’t sexual creatures. That’s stupid. I said they’re more likely to be monogamous than men. Hypergamy itself is a great show of this: higher standards for something you want a long time with (esp when you have to carry something in your body for 9 whole months) vs. men’s general much lower standards (she just needs to be appealing) bc they sleep around and want to “spread their seed.”

And again, it’s in every other animal species… lol Heck, even in some plant species it’s obvious.

Honestly can’t imagine you’ve never heard women complain about men not wanting to settle down or the “spread his seed” thing about men… 🤔

[–]autistic_cool_kid1 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I said they’re more likely to be monogamous than men. Hypergamy itself is a great show of this: higher standards for something you want a long time with (esp when you have to carry something in your body for 9 whole months) vs. men’s general much lower standards (she just needs to be appealing) bc they sleep around and want to “spread their seed.”

Pubmed doesn't defend any of this, this is the evopsych interpretation of redpillers

Honestly can’t imagine you’ve never heard women complain about men not wanting to settle down or the “spread his seed” thing about men… 🤔

Maybe it's a matter of selection bias, but I don't have anyone like this around me. I have happy monogamous people, happy poly people, and unhappy people that are unable to understand what it means to connect with an actual human being.

Edit to add: You seem really cultural, and culture is great, but it’s more opinion-based than science is. That’s why I personally prefer science over culture’s views when discussing natural things like this.

I have two degrees in STEM and used to be a professional chemist. But I'm also well versed in soft sciences and one absolutely can't ignore the cultural side of things. We are genetically programmed to be creatures of culture.

[–]Expert_Profession9511 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]autistic_cool_kid1 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

a geneticist would tell you that both nature and nurture matter in social aspects of humans

Yes in the sense that our society is based on how we evolved, but one should not undermine how our society and environment shapes us.

As an example, so many people on this subreddit believe adopted kids were never seen as legitimate contrary to blood ties kids, when this is very historically clearly a new development in our culture. They will also use evopsych as a reason why this cannot be true because it makes no sense from a "spread your genes" standpoint - disregarding any historical proof.

Obviously I know autism is genetic and it shapes you individually, but it's about the interactions between you as a person and your environment. Autism is only a disorder because the environment is not suited to accommodate it.

[–]Expert_Profession9511 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]autistic_cool_kid1 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Having higher standards doesn’t make someone insecure.

It's not higher standards. It's unhealthy requirements highlighting unhealthy views of people and relationships.

To answer your question of why, just look at all the research that shows that promiscuous women are more likely to do infidelity and the marriages don’t last as long and both partners aren’t as happy.

Correlation and causation. This has been debunked a million times.

Plus, choosing a partner based on statistical trends is ridiculous.

If you’re happy like that that’s great. It just means your standards are lower. I like my high standards and like a woman who expects highly as well. We are more likely to be happier and stay together longer.

I have very long and extremely happy relationships with my partners, because we both see each other as humans and interact with each other as such.

On the opposite, caring not about who the person really is but about how many dicks entered their body is a sure way to a bad relationship. You're partnering with a reified idea of a person, not an actual human being.

It's not about standards, my standards are probably much higher than yours. It's about seeing the other person as a human VS an object.

[–]Expert_Profession9511 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

That’s your opinion or interpretation. I definitely make it a standard, as others who hold it do as well - both men and women.

So they say. Not saying correlation is causation (It’s not and I never said it was.), but the relationship is still there for a reason.

Mmm… I call it self respect. The statistics just back me up. I started choosing a partner before I ever knew about stats.

The research disagrees with you, and so do others who hold my same view. For example, my grandparents hold this belief as well, and they’ve been married over 60 years and are extremely happy together. Add to that all the older couples whom we don’t know but say the same thing: they’re both treated “as humans,” as you say, but they’re also both ACCOUNTABLE and have self-respect.

No, your standard is lower in terms of self respect if you don’t care about body count. And that’s your life and your freedom to choose that. But again, both the research and other people who hold my view prove that longer happier marriages don’t involve previous promiscuity.

If the correlation went the opposite way and older happier couples were promiscuous in their younger years, I would consider your side as truthful. But it’s just not the case. Lol

[–]autistic_cool_kid1 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

So they say. Not saying correlation is causation (It’s not and I never said it was.), but the relationship is still there for a reason.

There are many reasons why the relationship exist and few of them are indicative of a less good partner. And when they are, it also doesn't mean a high N woman will necessarily be a less good partner

Mmm… I call it self respect. The statistics just back me up. I started choosing a partner before I ever knew about stats.

So the stats were never important in the first place.

You call it self respect I understand that, my opinion is that this shows a culture and values I don't agree with and I believe are less healthy than mine

No, your standard is lower in terms of self respect if you don’t care about body count. And that’s your life and your freedom to choose that. But again, both the research and other people who hold my view prove that longer happier marriages don’t involve previous promiscuity.

I don't associate self respect with N count contrary to you, this is why I think my values are healthier.

I'm glad your grandparents are happy but neither this nor the correlation you point to has any bearing on the quality of my relationships. If you believe this then you don't understand how statistics works.

I choose my partners very carefully and I'm extremely picky, I don't date a statistical average of women, I date individuals - it's weird to me that you conflate those two things.

[–]Expert_Profession9511 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]autistic_cool_kid1 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You’re the one who said choosing a partner based on stats is ridiculous. (It would be.) Now you’re saying they’re not even important. LOL

That's the same opinion. You didn't choose on stats because no one does because that would be crazy.

BINGO. So what you express is not fact but opinion, which as I said before, is your right to have and express freely. The facts come with the research: that my view actually has correlation, yours does not.

You are using this correlation as a rationalisation that you're right, except that's dishonest because you don't actually care about the statistics, and of course you don't because no one picks someone based on statistics.

You don't seem to understand that this statistical trend does not mean your values are healthier, or that they actually lead to better outcomes in relationships. You can't reduce "good outcome in your relationship" to N-count, that'd be ridiculous.

You just don't like N-count because of preferences, my point being that these preferences are from a worldview that are fundamentally unhealthy, if you think about it for some time.

Let's imagine you are racist, and then you find a statistical trend supporting on the surface your racist values. I will tell you that 1/ it doesn't actually support a racist worldview and 2/ racism is still unhealthy

I think you lack knowledge on stats and research tbh, but hey, so do most people. Lol

I have a doctorate and do research myself for a living

I'm shocked that you can't see the fallacy you're into when you have a doctorate. Is it in STEM?

[–]Expert_Profession9511 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Right. But you implied that I did. Or if that wasn’t your implication, what was your point in saying it? Btw, I don’t believe stats are ever irrelevant. They always mean something.

How is it dishonest?

And yeah, I care about stats. Always. Doesn’t mean I have to pick my wife based on stats.

I get what you’re calling a fallacy. However, yes, the correlation does have meaning, especially when - like I said - there are so many happy couples who demonstrate it as well and yet women who are promiscuous do not tend to end up in long happy healthy monogamous relationships. I’m not saying it’s causation; I’m saying the correlation has meaning. Your problem is you want to dismiss it altogether. That’s your opinion; doesn’t make you right. Again, I haven’t seen any research that supports your view, correlation or other statistical tests.

And yes, my Ph.D. is in molecular biology.

[–]autistic_cool_kid1 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Right. But you implied that I did. Or if that wasn’t your implication, what was your point in saying it? Btw, I don’t believe stats are ever irrelevant. They always mean something.

Not when choosing a partner, this is way too complex to be reduced to some statistics

However, yes, the correlation does have meaning, especially when - like I said - there are so many happy couples who demonstrate it

There are many couples demonstrating the opposite just as well

Your problem is you want to dismiss it altogether.

Not at all, I want to place it in the context where it was studied, as would the authors of the study. Do you think they believe their study is relevant in choosing a partner?

That’s your opinion; doesn’t make you right. Again, I haven’t seen any research that supports your view, correlation or other statistical tests.

We might be able to find some data to help us understand success factors when choosing partners, but that's not what this particularly study even tries to do.

We need a holistic approach based on a solid and healthy view of the world, and right now the first question to ask yourself would be: is me caring about N count representative of an unhealthy worldview?

[–]Expert_Profession9511 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]autistic_cool_kid1 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Are you avoiding the real question?

I will reply to any question but please highlight exactly which question that is

Not nearly as many… Those couples are literally outliers, which takes us back to my point that the correlation has meaning.

And what allows you to say this? Vibes?

Even if they were outliers, could one say happy couples are outliers and one would be happier being an outlier?

My relationships are clearly outliers because I keep hearing fighting in your partnership is normal yet we never fight

There are many studies showing this, not just one.

I am not disputing the validity of the data

They’re not intended to assist in choosing a partner. They show my point that promiscuity tends to correlate significantly less with happiness and longevity, though.

Correlation and causation again. You keep treating this as causation.

They show my point that promiscuity tends to correlate significantly less with happiness and longevity, though.

And you keep treating a statistical correlation as an absolute truth, not a statistical correlation which explanation are much more complex than what you seem to agree it is.

Let's be serious and interpret the correlation. What do you think it really means when choosing a partner? This is my question to you. How are you interpretation this data on the matter that we are currently talking about?

It sounds like you’re saying I should reevaluate my view to be more accepted by others.

Absolutely never said that

Sorry, dude, my view is based on science

It's not. You're using science to rationalise your vibes.

And it’s actually healthy for me, not unhealthy.

We haven't even started discussing why your views are unhealthy

Tbh I still can’t believe you were in professional research and go with a view that’s not even backed by science. Lol

My whole worldview is based on science, but I know how the human mind works to be careful not to use unrelated scientific data to push the ideas I wanted to be true in the first place (extremely difficult thing to do).

Actually I might be doing it sometimes because everyone does it, but I stay careful about it. See how you just denied the experience of many couples by calling them "outliers".

That's the problem with the Redpill, it's an ideology that makes sense... If you interpret data in wildly wrong ways, cherry pick data and think in a closed loop.

[–]Expert_Profession9511 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You said using the science and correlation as support for my view was dishonest, and I asked how.

What allows me to say that? The STATS. Tell me you’ve read the studies… lol

Bro, I literally said CORRELATION. You’re the only one who keeps bringing up causation. It’s not causation, but the correlation has meaning. You don’t like that it has meaning and just want to dismiss it bc you pull the “causation” thing every time. It doesn’t need to be causation in order to mean something.

I’m definitely going to treat science as closer to absolute truth than just some woke view, which is what you’re doing. Lol

“You’re using science to rationalize your vibes.”

YES. Which is how my view is based on science. LOL

You’re the one who brought up that my views might be unhealthy.

Unrelated? Yet perfectly the topic of this entire discussion. Lol

In summary, what I see in all of this is that I’m pushing a view based on science (studies that show correlations that support my view on these topics), and you’re literally trying to push a more opinionated cultural view with no science behind it at all so you’re just saying the science in mine is “irrelevant” or correlation vs. causation off-topic discussion, etc. This basically sums it all up so far.

[–]autistic_cool_kid1 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

YES. Which is how my view is based on science. LOL

Rationalising your view using science is literally the opposite of having a scientific approach to anything!

and you’re literally trying to push a more opinionated cultural view with no science behind it at all so you’re just saying the science in mine is “irrelevant” or correlation vs. causation off-topic discussion, etc. This basically sums it all up so far.

I can agree on this sum up, except that my vision approaches the topic with complexity and a holistic approach based on a comprehensive understanding of the world and a deep exploration of the topics involved using a variety of approach

While you refuse to explore the topics, you stay anchored in your initial values and worldview, and then use science (badly) to say it's anchored in science

Not only are you using the tool that is science badly, you're also using the wrong tool, and you're criticizing my approach because it also includes a variety of other tools

[–]Expert_Profession9511 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]autistic_cool_kid1 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

LOL You clearly know nothing about research. What do you think researchers do?

Literally worked as a researcher, published papers

I disagree. Yours doesn’t use a holistic approach with an understanding of the world. You’re only proving my point that it’s just a random woke view that’s not grounded in anything.

Literally nothing is woke about what I'm doing. I might be far left but many of my opinions are seen as revolting by the woke crowd. For one, I don't believe in morality.

What tools does yours use, then?

Everything that teaches you about the world

Psychology sociology history philosophy biology to name a few, and a good dose of experimentation with an open mind

If you think STEM disciplines can guide you through life alone you are actually running completely blind and then using STEM to justify why it makes sense why you ran into the sewers

Genetic studies can inform your view of the world but they aren't supposed to tell you how to pick a partner, they were never made for that, any serious genetician would tell you as much

You never even cared to ask why my opinion is that your worldview is unhealthy and bad for your personal relationships

Note that I say "unhealthy" and not "immoral" because my views are guided by what works for people, not what is woke. I don't care about morality contrary to what you seem to believe.

[–]Expert_Profession9511 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Doubt it, but whatever you say

Yeah, it’s very woke. The main point, though, is that it’s not backed by facts.

Nobody expects academic discipline alone to guide them through life. If anything, some would even say you don’t need academics at all. (Not my view, but some do say that)

Yours don’t speak at all. Everything contradicts them. And you tell me to challenge mine? Lol when they’re supported by the science… Again, you’re free to believe what you want. I’ll stick to what’s actually supported by the facts.

Pretty sure we’ve already mentioned what a geneticist would tell you: that both genetics and environment contribute, and this isn’t about picking a partner. You talk in circles.

And no, I didn’t ask your opinion because you never provided any support for your view, which let me know it’s bogus. Anybody can claim something all day, but if there’s no evidence for it then it’s pointless to me.

And you never answered the question of how I was being dishonest by basing a view on facts and science. You just say stuff and talk in circles; you never provide any support or evidence for yourself.

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[–]Reasonable_Mouse7891 point 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Reminder: Commit to exercising, and learn to talk to women in person.

Women who look like this:

https://np.reddit.com/r/PlusSize/comments/1oaus3o/felt_cute_confident_and_strong_yesterday/

Get offered sex on apps by guys who look like this:

https://np.reddit.com/r/Tinder/comments/1nvu8pu/ill_be_honest_this_one_hurt_my_feelings_a_bit_lol/?share_id=zAR_qbAMMzmr6-5ZbA_I0&utm_content=1&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_source=share&utm_term=1

Casual sex is incredibly one sided, especially on apps. You likely have to be “better” than the women you’re interested in, in terms of fitness, sociability, living by yourself in your own place, knowing how to escalate over the course of an hour or more with women (as opposed to instantly), etc.

When women complain on Reddit that “they can’t get a decent hookup”, I assume they’re 100% autistic, because you would have to be completely socially inept to not find men “in your league” who are eager to sleep with you on dating apps.

[–]fiftypoundpuppy8 points 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I think it's so funny how this situation stays in men's heads here so much. I guess your other comment about her on the daily didn't get enough engagement?

It's not her fault who offers her sex. You also have no idea who else dude "shot his shot" to or how they look. He could have been swiping and spamming everybody. You're so focused on her looks that you're completely ignoring the dude's clearly consistent pattern of awful shitty behavior - did you actually read what he said?

Yet somehow your takeaway from all of that is "don't forget men, women are constantly being approached for casual sex by men out of their league" and then despite her clearly stating she wasn't into casual, you turned that into "women who can't find good casual sex have a skill issue" when everything about that text proves sex with him would be positively awful.

Remember women - men thinking they're "above you" and graciously demeaning themselves to offer you their cocks for one-sided pleasure means it's your skill issue that you can't find a good one 🤣😭

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[–]Reasonable_Mouse7892 points 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You're so focused on her looks that you're completely ignoring the dude's clearly consistent pattern of awful shitty behavior

I am able to guess with nearly 100% certainty that his shitty behavior disappears the moment someone attractive wants to talk to him. He’s not consistent with acting like that.

women who can't find good casual sex have a skill issue

I’m sticking by this statement. If you can’t find good casual sex as a woman, then it’s a skill issue. Considering that she’s probably among the least attractive people in their age group, the fact she still gets offered it is pretty telling.

that text proves sex with him would be positively awful

It’s hard to tell. Depends on the person/what she prefers

He wasn't "above her in every way," he was an average looking nasty man and she was polite, just fat.

His nastiness will disappear in his messages to other women. The women who like him will almost all act identical in terms of being nice, because there aren’t really any women who act “mean” to their matches. It creates this interesting dynamic where guys who act nice in person can get more of what they want, but often, this “niceness” is directly tied to how attractive they are relative to the person they’re talking to. Women also ghost/get bored of guys they aren’t attracted to, of course.

Remember women - men thinking they're "above you" and graciously demeaning themselves to offer you their cocks for one-sided pleasure means it's your skill issue that you can't find a good one

I mean, try talking to slightly less attractive men, or be willing to search around a bit for a hookup/fwb, if that bothers you. She’s among the least attractive women of her age group. While she wouldn’t be a virgin like her peers are, she absolutely does have the option of taking what she can get.

[–]fiftypoundpuppy5 points 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I am able to guess with nearly 100% certainty that his shitty behavior disappears the moment someone attractive wants to talk to him. He’s not consistent with acting like that.

Okay?? He's still clearly a rotten human being if he behaves that way to anyone. She literally did nothing to deserve his vitriol

It's so weird how you're trying to excuse his behavior

I’m sticking by this statement. If you can’t find good casual sex as a woman, then it’s a skill issue. Considering that she’s probably among the least attractive people in their age group, the fact she still gets offered it is pretty telling.

Okay, so kindly share with the class your foolproof method for making sure a guy will be super nice to us and prioritize our pleasure and isn't a rotten asshole who only pretends to be civilized to women he finds attractive. Clearly any man approaching us for casual is de facto "above our league," but if we have to go spam our pussies at men then that also usually implies they're "above our league."

So I welcome your clarification regarding this matter

It’s hard to tell. Depends on the person/what she prefers

It's not hard to tell that someone who is as needlessly cruel and nasty as he is is deep down a genuinely selfless lover in bed and cares if his partner enjoys it. Men who go out of their way to treat women with completely unwarranted contempt are not good partners in bed.

I'm sticking by this statement.

His nastiness will disappear in his messages to other women. The women who like him will almost all act identical in terms of being nice, because there aren’t really any women who act “mean” to their matches. It creates this interesting dynamic where guys who act nice in person can get more of what they want, but often, this “niceness” is directly tied to how attractive they are relative to the person they’re talking to. Women also ghost/get bored of guys they aren’t attracted to, of course.

Ghosting someone you're literally just talking to online isn't remotely equivalent to going out of your way to be hostile and spiteful to someone just because they wanted different things.

Once again, I reiterate my point that she literally did nothing at all that remotely justifies or warrants his behavior towards her.

"When someone shows you who they are, believe them."

I mean, try talking to slightly less attractive men, or be willing to search around a bit for a hookup/fwb, if that bothers you.

Literally nothing I said was about myself 🙄

I wasn't "bothered" by a damn thing. I'm pointing out the errors in reasoning and logic underlying your assertions and claims.

She’s among the least attractive women of her age group. While she wouldn’t be a virgin like her peers are, she absolutely does have the option of taking what she can get.

I have no idea what point I made that this is specifically supposed to address. She is very overweight. She's looking for a relationship. She literally matched with this dude, which also means he swiped on her. Yet she should understand that even though that's "what she got," it actually means nothing at all. Which long confirms what I've been saying on this sub anyway - that OLD matches for women are completely meaningless.

Or maybe your point is that based on this one snapshot of this one exchange, you're assuming she has no other options so she should be eternally grateful for the mediocre dick of this atrocious asshole?

[–]Popeoath3 points 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]Popeoath3 points 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The dude had to swipe on her too in order for a match to happen

Yes, for sex only. And he's saying that she should've had the common sense to know that he was only matching with her for sex.

He's probably going to tell every ugly fat woman who matches with him the same thing: If they don't want casual/ONS, they're delusional for matching with him, since he is never going to seriously date them.

He is far too much better looking than them for that.

The dude is an asshole no doubt but he has a solid point about people being realistic. The woman in that pic has no business expecting relationships with average men.

Okay, so kindly share with the class your foolproof method for making sure a guy will be super nice to us and prioritize our pleasure and isn't a rotten asshole who only pretends to be civilized to women he finds attractive.

Date him for a while and see how he treats and talks about people who are not you, his personal history, etc.

Except, a significantly better looking man isn't going to put up with the wait and scrutiny, so once again selection realism is required.

Clearly any man approaching us for casual is de facto "above our league," but if we have to go spam our pussies at men then that also usually implies they're "above our league."

It's not advised for the baseline woman to "spam pussy".

And league is objective based on looks. People are expected to make reasonable personal assessments and comparisons to others.

[–]fiftypoundpuppy3 points 8 months ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Yes, for sex only. And he's saying that she should've had the common sense to know that he was only matching with her for sex.

I'm sorry, is your argument here that she should have psychic and time-traveling powers?? You don't know who matches with you until they match with you. He then used his words to tell her what he was looking for, which is also something she should have known in advance.

Once again, pure incoherency and avoidance of male accountability for their behavior

The dude is an asshole no doubt but he has a solid point about people being realistic. The woman in that pic has no business expecting relationships with average men.

When did she "expect" jack shit??? It was a fucking swipe.

Unreal. Truly

No seriously I want you to show me exactly where on her post she remotely indicated she expected to have a relationship with him, or admit you're just full of shit and irrationally demonizing her for having the audacity to use a dating app. Just like Reasonable_Mouse did

All she did was swipe on a guy and it has to mean all of this extra shit

Date him for a while

How do you date someone before swiping on them?? More incoherency. You and Reasonable_Mouse are ascribing all of these things because of a swipe, yet your brilliant solution is to go even further and "date them for awhile?"

No, my question was very clearly and pointedly about how to even determine who to swipe on to begin with, because it's merely on the basis of swiping right that you guys are judging her so severely. Apparently the answer is psychic powers and time travel. So simple!

selection realism is required.

What is the guaranteed foolproof way to go about this "realism" to ensure people like you and mouse won't mock her later?

You didn't remotely answer the question. You demand perfection of these choices or she deserves or should expect mistreatment, so you damn sure better have a guaranteed way to make the perfect choice every time

It's not advised for the baseline woman to "spam pussy".

Once again not actually providing the step-by-step guaranteed way to avoid these "out of her league" men who obviously will only want to pump and dump her.

Details. Now.

And league is objective based on looks. People are expected to make reasonable personal assessments and comparisons to others.

Got it, so you can't actually provide any meaningful advice but you will still blame her for his behavior and expect she should have known better.

Who gets to determine what is "reasonable?"

Details. Now.

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Seems hypocritical.

Maybe people don't want to date those with vastly different personal values and life experiences

I'm not promiscuous, and I wouldn't want to date promiscuous men. That's that opposite of hypocritical, and is not in contradiction with your second sentence, so I'm not sure what you're on about here. But looking for someone whose personal values you share is certainly not always the driving factor behind someone being averse to promiscuous behavior.

No, some other person's opinion on the act of rape itself is entirely irrelevant to law enforcement against it. Unless the individual's saying rape shouldn't be illegal or heavily penalized they are not an enemy on this subject

Rhetoric like the one propagated by the OC is extremely harmful to humanizing male rape victims and absolutely harms improving treatment of male rape victims by essentially framing it as not a real issue. If a woman said something like that, MRAs would be beside themselves with indignation. And rightfully so. Yet, they almost never call out harmful rhetoric from other men, even though other men definitely play a part in the treatment of male rape victims.

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"Does that describe you?" - no, i'm as a female representative pretty much strive in educational system. Not that i like that, but i'm successful in that surroundings.

"I am criticizing that you don't care about his opinion AT ALL." - seems stupid. You don't know his opinion, and then you put importance for his opinion more than mine. Why it should be that "i don't care" not "he doesn't want to change/adapt/doesn't care for my happiness"?

Didn't answer about friends. Your analogy with teacher is not working here, i'm an adult, teacher already done their job, now it's none of their business.

Didn't answer about purpose of strategy. Didn't answer why should i do what you say is right. Well i think i'm out of this one sided conversation. Maybe your wife is okay with you ignoring her questions and lecturing her without any knowledge, but i didn't sign up for that treatment.

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Title	N COUNTS WEEKLY DISCUSSION THREAD
Author	AutoModerator
Upvotes	3
Comments	1770
Date	November 8, 2025 5:00 PM UTC (8 months ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1oruhb0/n_counts_weekly_discussion_thread/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/n-counts-weekly-discussion-thread.1566050 https://theredarchive.com/post/1566050

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