would you.... | PurplePillDebate

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That's actually how you make men feel invested in their country or nation in order to contribute and feel it is something worth protection.

Lol nationalism. We as a society haven't thought like that for decades and that big huge "decline" TRP/tradcons keep banging on about has yet to happen.

This is a pretty terrible example considering most people do want jobs that are already very saturated.

When they're kids wanting to be astronauts sure, but when they grow up they'll settle for and generally become content with whatever they happen to fall into for the most part.

But for this to happen at all, you need entrepreneurs to start businesses to employ people. Therefore entrepreneurs are very important to the economy.

Yet imagine if absolutely everyone was determined to become an entrepreneur. It'd be a nightmare. How would they ever get anyone to work for them?

[–]Jcart1051 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Lol nationalism. We as a society haven't thought like that for decades and that big huge "decline" TRP/tradcons keep banging on about has yet to happen.

Nationalism is just human nature at the societal level.

When they're kids wanting to be astronauts sure, but when they grow up they'll settle for and generally become content with whatever they happen to fall into for the most part.

Most people work to live, not live to work. I can safely say that the vast majority of people would quit their day job if they had the economic/financial means to survive without the income they rely on from their jobs.

But for this to happen at all, you need entrepreneurs to start businesses to employ people. Therefore entrepreneurs are very important to the economy.

I know this is beyond the scope of the conversation, but a plain entrepreneur with no experience or domain knowledge is almost certainly going to be a complete failure.

Yet imagine if absolutely everyone was determined to become an entrepreneur. It'd be a nightmare. How would they ever get anyone to work for them?

But that sort of thing actually does exist? Just look at underemployment for college graduates.

Anyways, this is kind of beside the point. Strong nationalism doesn't necessarily mean everyone is aiming to play the exact same role; it's more akin to that people will be motivated to contribute their individual roles to the best of their ability for the highest benefit of the nation. The primary point is if you don't make men feel like they belong, then they do not have any incentive to work their absolute hardest. This is a very detrimental side effect for society as a whole, and as much a women/feminists want to claim they're taking on their share/load; all of the data points to this being largely untrue (with most women occupying a bunch of bullshit bureaucratic and/or public sector jobs which arguably don't even add any real value and which demand for said jobs is artificial as a result).

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I never said you said a word about it. I simply asked why you said you didn't get the attitude. Or do you get it since you say you argued the opposite too, saying the imperatives are at odds?

And I never asked whether men should marry only why the one deal was presented as better than the other. You clearly support being married. I was asking about why you'd present a deal you know no woman would take. You did indeed present the opposite to the argument when you said:

and thats what "living with some man without marriage for 15 yrs and having his bastard OOW children" is for women

Still, you're not exactly saying '15 years with a wonderful man having his kids regardless of a piece of paper.' You've presented your position that being married to you is a wonderful deal, as have other women, with the implication that trusting you with marriage is a good idea because you'd never want to screw your partner over.

This is great and all but it defeats the purpose of your original point: presenting a deal you know women wouldn't take. You can claim men and women shouldn't trust each other but you've placed yourself as an exception because you claim your position with your partner is one where he benefits from trusting you.

If you genuinely believe that you've presented both sides fairly (that sometimes male or female imperatives win), then was the point of your original post a survey?

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We're Schrodinger's Bloop. Simultaneously model and fat blue hair until you open the box.

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There are some issues there.

First is that the idea of "fair" might strike as bit too unfair for some men, so "not hurt my partner financially" might mean something that he reads as that, and at this point it is his opinion that counts.

But the main one is number's tyranny.

Would you bet a 5% (low number for divorces AND fucked up?) chance of losing "all you have" to get "traditional marriage benefits" above "cohabiting and solving logistics to sex and family"?

It's a hard bet to make. Some men see a lot of added benefit and make the bet, but when most men put it coldly, the benefit isn't just too big.

To me it seems like "5% chance of losing everything (lose 100% of "happy"), 25% chance of sexual frustration (losing 12.5% of "happy"?) to a 70% chance of gaining pair bonding (15% in "happy" or so).

And my laws for divorce strike as a lot better than everything I see about US in TRP. Although they're (They is Americans, RPillers on the subject, so, "we're") probably biased.

[–]SpaceWhiskey🍃 Social Justice Druid 🍂2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

By hurting him financially, what I meant was seeking out more than my fair share in divorce. I actually make more than him right now, though it’s close enough that it doesn’t really matter. We own a business together but I’ve also got a freelance side hustle that supplements our lifestyle.

As for rolling the dice on the success of the marriage, I don’t think in terms of percentage of risk. My relationship with him is so solid it’s not something I ever even think about outside of my participation in this sub. He proposed to me, by the way. Our engagement was driven by his desire for marriage. His family loves me, he is very traditionally romantic, I am personally in no hurry but it’s something important to him and I love him so I want him to have what he wants, which is a memorable, lovely ceremony.

Real talk, when I showed him this thread and told him what the conversation was about, he shook his head and said “Why do you even talk to those people?” So much of the stuff some men in this sub worry about is stuff that isn’t even on his radar, doesn’t ever even occur to him to stress over. I’m not saying those worries aren’t legitimate in the men who have them, but my partner’s consistent bewildered amusement at some of the subjects fuels my skepticism that these are universal man issues all men worry about.

[–]quicklogaccountI claim to cause RPs to feel blue-1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

By hurting him financially, what I meant was seeking out more than my fair share in divorce.

I reckon how noble you mean to be, but some guys won't share the concept of "fair" their partners do, which cause them to perceive a threat, even if there's an ubiquitous meaning for "fair" in the context.
And their perception is all it takes here. Kinda sucks but...

As for rolling the dice on the success of the marriage, I don’t think in terms of percentage of risk. (...) As for rolling the dice on the success of the marriage, I don’t think in terms of percentage of risk.

Most people don't. We suck with this sort of issue, although that is the right approach. It doesn't cause "stupid idea", those numbers are mine, it might be simply rational for some guys.
We're good with spotting patterns (and are sinners in spotting them were there are none), so you probably just never had your attention drawn to it happening, and you don't have a lot of reasons to.
Men tend to notice it and react somewhat viscerally (we're visceral with this sort of threat). I suppose "the law of small chances" (from thinking fast and slow, my translation though and therefore prone to not be spot on) acts in order to cause us to exaggerate the small odds in this case.

So that's pretty much WHY RP is a like that. Not only marriage is often not a rational choice, our cognitive biases also react against it if we're exposed to information about it going wrong.
RP collection of nitpicked horror stories certainly does Marriage no favor too.

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No we don't. We absolutely believe and admit that people -- many of whom are women -- can be vindictive, vicious, and cruel.

The issue is that RPs and some PPs like yourself only seem to talk about how bad women are, and/or claim all or almost all women are bad.

Like in this case, you made it gendered, I said it shouldn't be gendered because all humans do that, and somehow you admitted it shouldn't be gendered and then made it gendered again:

blue pillers on this sub have a hard time believing how common crazy, vindictive women are.

The problem isn't BPs not realizing women can do bad things, we are aware. The problem is RPs only ever talking about women doing bad things.

Yet when we say "Yeah, men do that too" people like you somehow interpret that as saying "Women don't do that" which is not at all what we're saying.

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[–]Young_Oryx18 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Legal marriage is real marriage? TEll that to the millions of frivorced guys out there who thought they had "real" marriages.

If words mean anything, then yes, they had a real marriage. It's very sad that they got divorced, but that doesn't change the definition of marriage.

Your husband who is financially dependent on you does not a trend make.

I didn't claim it was a trend, but you seem to be telling the women in this thread that they want to get married because:

It's the control, right? It's the ability to royally fuck him over and take him for what he's worth if and when she decides he just ain't cuttin' it anymore or for whatever other reason she wants out, right?

I'm providing a counter example. Clearly it's possible for women to value marriage for reasons beyond monetary gain.

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Our first no fault I don't have the tingles anymore victims signed their proverbial contracts before no fault divorce was a thing.

what contracts? the prenups? theres no marriage "contract" signed in the US if that swhat youre talking about

Here's another example. Let's say my state allows prenups and i marry, with one. State legislature changes the law to throw them out 6 years later and my hypothetical prenup wife divorces me 8 years later, knowing about the law change. Was the contract violated?

this of course would not happen but lets say it did, of course the "contract" isnt "violated" becaus eit has been made void by operation of law and no longer exists. there is no "law" making prenuptial agreements legal or illegal, they are standard contracts subject to contract law that are either recognized as valid by a state court or not. i do not believe there is a stat ein the union that doesnt recognize them as valid K's but id have to look

if weed was legal today and you and i signed a contract for the delivery of 4 pounds of weed by january 1st 2019 and weed was made illegal in october and there was no kind of grandfather clause for previously existing contracts of sale, the contract would be void for illegality, not "violated"

edit: in order to void the prenups made before the change in legislation the legisltion would have to state it applied retroactively or all contracts made before it would still be enforceable

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[–][deleted] 8 years ago* [recovered] (33 children) | Copy Link

I'll list these in order of how much I care, I guess.

I'm religious and believe that marriage, real marriage, is the only acceptable way to have a sexual, romantic relationship.
My husband marrying me proves to me that he's serious about "forever." That he's committed to building this family with me.
I have no desire to bear illegitimate children, and marriage will give our future children a stable home.
Marriage comes with social and familial respect, while "long term girlfriend" gets you pity and judgment.

[–][deleted] 8 years ago* [recovered] (32 children) | Copy Link

Legitimacy of children doesn't mean a thing nowadays

My parents married after I was born, I'm technically a bastard, yet this has had zero social impact on me

Having out of wedlock children is a good way to make sure a woman is holding up her end of the bargain IMO, if I can get away with it I will do the same

[–][deleted] 8 years ago* [recovered] (18 children) | Copy Link

Legitimacy of children doesn't mean a thing nowadays

Statistically, the children of unwed mothers have poorer outcomes. They are more likely to do badly in school and become teen parents, and less likely to graduate from high school and college.

And it may not matter in your circles, but the legitimacy of children does mean a lot to many people. Being a "baby mama" or an unwed mother is shameful to a lot of people. My family would probably disown me.

I don't want children for myself, but my husband does. I'm perfectly willing to give him children, but I would absolutely not do so if we were unmarried.

[–][deleted] 8 years ago* [recovered] (17 children) | Copy Link

Would you abort if you had an accident then?

I know you'll say to save sex for marriage but you yourself haven't done so in practice so to me it's moot

Many women would ideally like to have children within marriage, but many also will not abort if they do get pregnant, and if a guy is there dangling his commitment and married upon pregnancy then that is incentive to keep it

[–][deleted] 8 years ago* [recovered] (16 children) | Copy Link

Would you abort if you had an accident then?

Now? No, I'm married. But when I was an unmarried atheist in a 2 year LTR, yes I had an abortion when I had an "accident." It broke my heart, but sometimes you have to do things that are unpleasant for the sake of your future.

My mother always warned me, "Your life is over if you have a child out of wedlock." She's got some flaws, but never let it be said that she's a stupid woman. That is sound advice.

[–][deleted] 8 years ago* [recovered] (15 children) | Copy Link

Well they always say, watch what they do not what they say

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And you still never answered my question. In your opinion, how should I conduct the rest of my life so as not to be a "hypocrite"?

Oh wait, I know the answer. The answer is that to you and people like you, nothing I do will ever be "good enough" because you are under the impression that my change of heart was meant to impress men. So that I could put on a shiny white Sunday dress and people could 'ooh' and 'ahh' over what a good girl I am.

I've gotten more hate in the past year since my conversion than I probably have at any other point in my life, solely for choosing to follow Christ. And it doesn't matter. Pile on the scorn, baby.

I'm going to quote my saint of a father for a second, even though I know it will be pearls before swine:

"People like to tell me that I'm 'off.' But I don't really care, because I know the love of my Father."

I have nothing to prove to you. I know the love of my Father. The rest is just icing on the cake, or water under the bridge as the case may be.

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Lol harsh

Would it matter if the parents later married

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Would you treat your own flesh and blood this way?

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You men have dealt with some fucked up women. As women have dealt with some fucked up men. Woman need to PROTECT themselves, their children and their future. These are women who are giving up her youth, her reproductive years and financial independence.

I think its crazy to me that you feel like every single woman has the instinct to divorce rape and take control. Its not control; its called being smart. Even MEN advise young girls about the nature of MEN earlt on and to be smart bc alot of them are dogs and will cheat; no matter how good of a wife you are. This behaviour of men is so common that most of the men I know have cheated. Most of the wifes I know (older generations) have had their husbands cheat - have a child with some nxt woman, or these woman become baby mothers. The wife would be the stay at home mom and hes off cheating. That is my reality of men growing up, that is alot of womans ideas growing up and funny that its coming from the advice of men (their fathers, brothers, etc) Most are "players" and will never commit to good girl.

So hell no. I would not move in with any man who wants me to essentialy give up my life, so he can one day walk away and leave me stranded; taking him to court for child support, and having to live on my own - and bring my SMV to a single mom - making my options limited to beta men or men to use me as only a one night stand. Fuck that.

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surely there is some behavior that caused her to be unsatisfied? and some other behavior that caused said dissatisfaction-inducing behavior? people don't go to bed happy one day and wake up the next so dissatisfied that they're willing to go through all the bullshit of divorce. it's a long process.

usually it starts when one person is upset about something the other person is doing (getting fat, not being a good parent, not picking up after themselves, etc.) and attempts to mitigate it in a way that makes things worse. for example:

wife gains weight during pregnancy and doesn't prioritize losing it. in fact, she gets fatter. she feels she has more important shit to do than go to the gym but to her husband it's really important. he thinks mentioning it outright would make him sound shallow, so he tries to mention it subtly a few times. it falls on deaf ears. unattracted, he withdraws affection, doesn't want to have sex anymore. he starts watching more porn, which makes it worse because he desperately misses when his wife prioritized looking good for him. the wife sees this as tacit evidence of her husband falling out of love with her. she tries to initiate sex once or twice but is rebuffed, and that feels crushing to her. feeling guilty, the husband tries to initiate but the whole thing feels awkward and forced. she feels lonely and isolated and eventually, yes, "unsatisfied."

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It doesn’t give me that control at all, specifically. Because I’m a career woman who makes the same as my husband and used to make more than him in the past. I’ll never get alimony or vastly more than my “fair share” if we divorce.

However for the hypothetical woman listed in the OP, yeah it gives her some measure of control that SHE and he kids won’t be screwed if he changes his mind about them in the future.

As for him, he can choose to marry a woman who is NOT like the hypothetical woman OP is suggesting or he can request a prenup if he’s concerned. I do not consider a man who has made the joint decision with his wife that she sacrifices he career and raises their children to be “royally screwed” by having to pay rehabilitative alimony to her and having their property appropriately distributed upon a divorce. It is the decision THEY made. I wouldn’t consider myself “royally screwed” if this happened to me either and my husband was a SAHD.

[–]quotient_isPurple Pill4 points5 points6 points 8 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]KrispyMcSockington2 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Yeah I'm with you on this. The issue men are seeing is abuse of a system that favours women. Women insist marriage is good and all the ladies here who swear they are the exception or who would never ever hurt their men have never been in the position where things are good until they aren't.

Every person who marries does so assuming til death do us part. Considering the divorce stats, how often women initiate and the risk men face, women promising they won't do anything is at best just hopeful optimism. They aren't the ones on the receiving end. Even Atlas's OP misses the point. For many men, what she has described is the gender flipped version of what we have today:

"Gentlemen, would you sign up for a deal where you are required to provide, get dwindling sex from an ever fattening wife who will one day leave you, take your kids and exhaust your finances?"

Of course he wouldn't take that deal.

[–]AnarchkittyBetter dead than Red5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]it_takes_the_redpillRed rover red rover send 'em all over0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Only about 50% of marriages last 20 years, and roughly 70% of all divorces are initiated by women.

So:

For the vast majority of married people

The people in this group are either the other 50% that remain married successfully, or they are on their way to divorce. Regardless, 50% of marriages ending in divorce over a 20 year period means a lot of divorces. That means your "normal" marriage and"hoping for the best" works out as often as a coin flip. Forgive me for not accepting that as reliable.

All of the happy married couples I know

Are by definition either on their way to divorce, or are part of the 50% of marriages that last longer than 20 years.

Here's the thing. Maybe that model is successful for people in certain situations. But here's my perspective: I'm entering into any relationship with enough money saved/inherited to build a life. If she were entering into the relationship with more resources than me, I'd similarly understand.

[–]Anarchkitty1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You asked what middle-ground model for marriage makes people happy, not what is the safest or most successful. I shared what I know, I don't know why you felt the need to try and dismantle my non-argument.

Only about 50% of marriages last 20 years, and roughly 70% of all divorces are initiated by women.

These statistics have been addressed hundreds of times in this sub. The 50% statistic includes second and third and Nth marriages which have much higher failure rates. The success rate of first and only marriages is a solid majority. And who initiated the divorces is irrelevant to a conversation about happy marriages so I don't know why you brought it up.

Here's the thing. Maybe that model is successful for people in certain situations.

Clearly it is. It's what the vast majority of people do.

But here's my perspective: I'm entering into any relationship with enough money saved/inherited to build a life.

So you do you. If your future bride isn't okay with that, you're probably not compatible enough to get married.

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In reality, almost no one is awarded alimony anymore, and the fact that a couple isn't married doesn't excuse a father from paying child support in the event of a separation. There is some risk in terms of losing out on survivor benefits in the event of one partner's untimely demise, but this can be ameliorated by a life insurance policy.

Now, here is something that may blow your mind! When my partner and I obtained powers-of-attorney for each other, we learned that a POA actually offers a couple more financial protection than a legal marriage! If your husband cleans out your joint bank account and runs off to another state with some floozie, you have very little recourse. Legally, it's his money, too! However, people wielding a POA are required to act in the best interest of the person they're representing, and if they fail to do so, they may run afoul of the law.

[–]SmeggingRightGot flair? Hell yeah!0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]kittenthepink12 points13 points14 points 8 years ago (21 children) | Copy Link

I did this, when I was younger. Well, everything aside from having children with him. We lived together, I maintained the household, cooked all meals, made treats that I'd take to him on his lunch breaks from time to time, helped boost his social life and aided in his networking because I had the better social skills, displayed sexual interest in him, partook in sexual activities that he loved but I wasn't wild about, and so much more. I organized his life and improved it in certain ways.

I would never do this again, for many reasons, but the main one being that the relationship became quite abusive. Locked in a closet for days without food levels of abusive.

The other main reason that I would never do this again is that housewifery is a skill that not everyone has. We looked at what his life lacked and inserted me into it in a way that only improved it and has gone on to make him more successful, even now post-breakup, due to the standard of living I was able to help him achieve. The old trope of the "woman's touch" isn't unfounded. Anyway, as with all skills, it has value and shouldn't be shared freely without anything in return. I don't mean money, or divorce rape, I mean commitment and stability. Sure, there's nothing stopping a husband from walking out on his wife, cheating on her, whatever, but, the act of being married means that the man is investing in the relationship too, on a deeper level. If you won't invest in the relationship, why would I give you unfettered access to that set of skills that benefit you?

[–]EqualinaPurple Pill Woman3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

TRPers like /u/LewisCross need to read this. This is very true about many women and their ‘woman’s skills’ and how we can improve men’s lives a huge amount and not have that valued. I have the housewifery skills - the ‘wind beneath your wings’ skills and they can be easily under-appreciated and exploited by an ungrateful man if I don’t value them and make sure he values them. Many men have benefited from women in this way for millennia and still many don’t acknowledge the huge boost it gives them and how little it is typically valued.

Asking for the commitment and relative financial security of marriage is not a big ask for this type of woman. If she gives this away without that commitment, she is open to being screwed over. I also think men who won’t commit to women like us are more likely to be abusive. They’re often malignant narcissists who are good at seeking givers out and using them up - resorting to abuse at any sign of you cottoning on to their actual nature.

I’m sorry you went through that and I’m sorry he’s still benefiting from your work and investment in him with no penalty. I hope he’s not doing the same to another woman :( I know a woman who went through something similar but thankfully she was married to him (no kids) and did get generous alimony for a time (he was very wealthy - something she helped create through her social networking skills, like you did) until she psychologically recovered and was able to get back into work and move on with her life. She only got alimony because she could prove his abuse and her contribution to his financial success and it was conditional on her not co-habiting with another man - this was in the UK. I think that was completely fair after what he put her through, but she fought hard for it in the courts to get more than just the usual divorce split.

[–]LewisCross 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago* (11 children) | Copy Link

[–]thinkytoes0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]EqualinaPurple Pill Woman0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

I haven’t downvoted you. I disagree, but I don’t downvote.

There are shitty women and shitty men - not all men appreciate a woman’s commitment and what she brings to the table that isn’t of monetary or sexual value. Not all women marry in good faith. But not all women get into marriage to manipulate, emasculate and divorce rape men just like not all men emotionally and physically use and abuse women.

Marriage does still mean a lot to a lot of people, women included. From your comments here you don’t believe women marry in good faith. You also seem to believe that women automatically get more than what’s fair in a divorce - maybe it is the case where you live, but it’s far from the norm almost everywhere else.

I wanted to point out to you why some women deserve the commitment of marriage and what security it can bring them. In my friends case, she was lucky she was married to the bastard otherwise she wouldn’t have gotten a thing from him and would have wasted many productive years of her life being used and abused just to have him walk off and leave her with nothing but trauma. He got a hell of a lot out of the marriage and got off lightly just paying out a bit of income for a time. Many women divorce for these kinds of reasons (maybe not as extreme as outright abuse, but certainly many from being taken for granted), not just because they branch swing to another man or are just vindictive cunts, and not many get alimony (at least where I’m from - only if they’re very wealthy and certain conditions are met). The system is not set up to screw over men and enrich women. And most women don’t set out to marry with a view to divorce. And of the ones that divorce, getting vengeance on their husbands is not the norm. It’s sad, but civil, in all the divorces I know, except the one I’m citing here.

But I’m speaking from a non-US experience. Though from others here I gather this ‘divorce rape’ you fear is really a thing of the past for you too.

[–]LewisCross 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]EqualinaPurple Pill Woman0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]LewisCross 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago* (4 children) | Copy Link

Yes, they are wrong, divorce rape is NOT a thing of the past, it goes on even today. And it's more than just financial; its men being deprived of seeing their children and of relationships with their children.

The problem isn't with marriage generally or even marriage in the US. The problem is with how men are treated in their marriages and at divorce. And it is cultural, and it's an issue of female power. Women are now empowered to destroy their husbands' lives at the snap of a finger or at one phone call to police. Do ALL women in the US do this? No. But take a foreign woman and "feminist"ize her here and immerse and marinate her in this culture, and she'll do every last thing a woman born here will do.

What's happened is that women's sexuality is not restrained at all; and men's sexuality has been so incredibly restrained and choked off that you can see how it's coming out now - school shootings and Toronto. Shit, a man can't even LOOK at a woman now without someone calling the police.

The problem is women's unrestrained sexuality and men's unduly restrained sexuality.

If you have male unrestrained sexuality, then you have to put up with shit the PoundMeToo women are complaining about. You have to put up with predatory, aggressive male sexuality. And women are willing to put up with that, but only from attractive men. Women are actively in this country attempting to criminalize male sexuality when expressed by bottom 80% men.

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He didn't do any of those things though, aside from yes, provide housing. I took care of literally every mundane task or chore so he could focus on his passions and not have to ever think about anything or care about anything aside from what he wanted to. My job never ended and I did eventually start to feel burned out, especially as the relationship erred toward the more abusive side of things. I know what I signed up for and don't really regret it, because I learned a lot about what I want from a relationship. While I am good at housewifery, I don't ever want to do that again, I want a more modern partnership. That information is super valuable.

The question of whose contributions are more valuable wasn't ever something I entertained, because they both are. The problem is that he failed to appreciate the value that I brought to the relationship. Admittedly, if he had expressed any appreciation at all, expressed unprompted affection, or just been nicer, it would have been different. Marriage in and of itself isn't necessarily something that I need, but commitment, appreciation and affection are and that's what was really lacking. If we had those things, and he wasn't an abusive asshole in the end, sure things would have been better and it could have worked, but it didn't.

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If I was younger maybe, seems like a silly thing younger naive me might have done.

Now, not so much. The only thing that changed is I guess I learned people in general, but personally men for the most part are not half as loyal or wonderful as my dad. I grew up with my parents being awesome to one another and expected things to be like that. I can empathize with breaking women are wonderful frame of mind, because I thought it of men too.

I was actually ok with all this part...

would not marry you and owned the house you lived in that he would not put you on the deed on, live with him, take on the support role of "wife"

Just not this part

and have kids with him at the expense of your career?

One is sacrifice which is OK to me, for someone I loved. The other is just feels like you are attaching a target to your back stumbling into no mans land.

[–]tplg 7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–][deleted] 5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Repeated but : Marriage is important to a woman bc woman need to PROTECT themselves, their children and their future. These are women who are giving up her youth, her reproductive years and financial independence.

its called being smart. Even MEN advise young girls about the nature of MEN earlt on and to be smart bc alot of them are dogs and will cheat; no matter how good of a wife you are. This behaviour of men is so common that most of the men I know have cheated. Most of the wifes I know (older generations) have had their husbands cheat - have a child with some nxt woman, or these woman become baby mothers. The wife would be the stay at home mom and hes off cheating. That is my reality of men growing up, that is alot of womans ideas growing up and funny that its coming from the advice of men (their fathers, brothers, etc) Most are "players" and will never commit to good girl.

So hell no. I would not move in with any man who wants me to essentialy give up my life, so he can one day walk away and leave me stranded; taking him to court for child support, and having to live on my own - and bring my SMV to a single mom - making my options limited to beta men or men to use me as only a one night stand. Fuck that.

If a man doesnt want to get married, he should stay single and spin plates and not even think about being in a relationship if he has trust issues. If a woman isnt interested in commitment, then she should continue being single.

If two people are serious about a relationship ensure talks are serious and youre both on the same page and have mutual respect. If you cant achieve that without games then stay alone.

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[–]EmoryUpton 10 points11 points12 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

There are any number of legal benefits that attend upon marriage. If my father dies, my mother, who has been married to him for 52 years, will get his VA benefits until she dies. They are not inconsiderable, and they would not be available to a forever girlfriend. If either of them dies, the surviving spouse gets the social security benefits of the spouse who died. There are inheritance issues that are greatly simplified by the fact that they are married.

Not to mention that "wife" is, as AtlasB has said a thousand times, the ultimate status in the FSM. I linked a piece earlier today that gives a good idea of how the vast majority of women view forever girlfriends. Men can talk until they're blue in the face about how marriage "shouldn't really matter." But it does to women, it always has and it always will.

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[–]Barely-moral1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I do support my partner financially, and generously, a girlfriend does not get that from me.

I will support my partner through sickness, a girlfriend does not get that treatment.

I forgive all mistakes that my partner makes as long as she apologizes and shows signs of change. A girlfriend does not get that from me.

I change myself pretty much without limits and exceptions at the will of my partner, a girlfriend does not get that from me.

I will plan my life around the convienience and happyness of my partner. A girlfriend does not get that from me.

I will stay with my partner until she dies as long as she provides only the following things : sex, smiles, silence and monogamy. (The first three items are expected within reason). I expect more from a girlfriend and if she fails to provide everything I want from her I leave at the first sign that she is not seeking a way to correct that.

I could go on.

[–]Littleknownfacts2 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I do support my partner financially, and generously, a girlfriend does not get that from me.

But she's your girlfriend... And she's getting that from you, isn't she?

I will support my partner through sickness, a girlfriend does not get that treatment.

So if you got sick you'd dump her?

I forgive all mistakes that my partner makes as long as she apologizes and shows signs of change. A girlfriend does not get that from me.

So she doesn't get that from you?

I change myself pretty much without limits and exceptions at the will of my partner, a girlfriend does not get that from me.

So you don't change youself for your girlfriend? Except for your current girlfriend, who you'd leave if she got sick...

I will plan my life around the convienience and happyness of my partner. A girlfriend does not get that from me.

Except she does, doesn't she?

I will stay with my partner until she dies as long as she provides only the following things : sex, smiles, silence and monogamy. (The first three items are expected within reason). I expect more from a girlfriend and if she fails to provide everything I want from her I leave at the first sign that she is not seeking a way to correct that.

I could go on.

Why would you do all of this for someone you wouldn't marry?! What if she picked up her shit tomorrow and left? That's such a stupid way of doing it.

[–]Barely-moral1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Girlfriend and partner are two distinct categories to me. The people that are filling a role in those two categories are not treated in the same way.

Partner is a more important and serious thing than girlfriend.

My partner is my partner, she gets everything that a wife would get from me except the chance of leaving at any point and taking half my shit.

Everything on the list I mentioned and more she gets from me and I give that to her willingly and gladly.

I do all those things for her because she accepted to be my partner knowing that I will not marry her and she still stays with me anyways. I will do all that for her and more because that is the deal. If she picks her shit and leaves me then that is ok, she can't take half of my shit with her so I will be hurt but I will recover.

She will not leave though, I choose her to be my partner because she has no option in life that is better than staying with me.

[–]Littleknownfacts3 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Barely-moral1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Littleknownfacts2 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Every social role held by everyone is in someone's imagination.

False.

It is when you actually make that social role have an impact on reality/ make it worth something outside of your head that it becomes real.

True...

Truth is I could treat her as a girlfriend as I define it or as a partner as I define it. And since I don't treat those categories in the same way then those two categories are real because both of them have an impact on reality.

And how does one transition from girlfriend to partner? Where are the written rules that describe the characteristics and standards and expectations of a partnership? What process maintains that title? What rights do partners have? Whats the punishment if you fail to treat her like a partner?

It's still all in your head based on how you feel about her at any given moment and if you really wanted to, you could change the definition of partner to suit your needs. Because you made up this fairy tale of a partnership.

In the moment those categories have an impact on the people around me then it has an impact outside of my imagination and becomes relevant to those that feel the effect of those categories.

Only if those other people recognize the categories, and nobody recognizes a "romantic partnership".

[–]Barely-moral1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

And how does one transition from girlfriend to partner?

In the moment I decide that person is worthy.

Where are the written rules that describe the characteristics and standards and expectations of a partnership?

Marriage minus "if you leave you get to take half my stuff"

What process maintains that title?

She keeps that title until she dies, cheats or stops trying.

What rights do partners have?

The same rights marriage gives her except "if she leaves she takes half of my stuff". I make sure she has all the legal benefits marriage does have except that one.

Whats the punishment if you fail to treat her like a partner?

Social scorn from my circle of friends. My circle of friends know the importance of keeping your word. If I fail to keep my word I will be ostracized.

It's still all in your head based on how you feel about her at any given moment and if you really wanted to, you could change the definition of partner to suit your needs.

I can, but I will not do it because I am not an asshole and I keep my word.

Only if those other people recognize the categories

If someone does not recongnize those categories then that person is removed from my life so all people relevant to me or my partner recognize those categories.

[–]Littleknownfacts3 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Barely-moral1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

There is nothing sacred. I agree. There is nothing sacred in marriage anyways.

And there is legal benefits because I told you that I gave those legal benefits to her. I live in a country where you can actually create a binding contract to formalize a relationship outside of marriage and agree on the terms and benefits that your partner gets.

If you think the only relationship above girlfriend/boyfriend is one in wich one of those gets the chance of leaving and taking half of their ex's stuff then I don't know what to say to you.

Sure, if my partner leaves me I would find someone else... that is the same thing that happens if I was married and my wife divorced me. Nothing special, nothing sacred.

And let me repeat this since you seem to avoid reading it. She does have special rights and privileges, legally, by contract, recongized by the country I live in. She just doesn't get to leave and take half of my shit.

[–]LewisCross 0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–][deleted] 8 years ago* [recovered] (23 children) | Copy Link

Let's say that we have mutual friends, an unmarried couple. There is nothing on this earth that either of them could do or say to me to make me see or treat him like his wife. She's a girlfriend. Why would I deny reality?

[–]Barely-moralMostly red though1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (22 children) | Copy Link

[–][deleted] 8 years ago* [recovered] (21 children) | Copy Link

Will that also work with your family members and her family members? Will you both cut out colleagues as well? Some people can't be neatly snipped from your life.

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Just because it may turn out useful for the thread, and I was interested...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3496021/

Overall, 6 % of U.S. adults (ages 15+) were cohabiting with a different-sex partner. [thats against 48% who are in married households, so 1 in 9 couples are cohabiting -TGP]

[...]

In most respects—including income, education, and employment levels—unmarried partner unions and newly identified householder unions are extremely similar (see Table 5). Unmarried partner unions and newly identified householder unions differ significantly in only two instances: unmarried partners are less likely to both have a bachelor’s degree and are more likely to report near-poverty income (between 100 % and 200 % of poverty threshold) than higher incomes. The magnitude of these differences is small. Unmarried partner unions are highly representative of the socioeconomic characteristics of all unions involving the householder.

[...]

In Table 6, we demonstrate the value of these new variables for describing children’s family structure and assessing economic well-being.12 The majority (68 %) of children ages 0–14 live with two married parents. A small percentage (6 %) live with cohabiting parents; [...] An additional 23 % of children live with a single parent.

It seems about 10% of women are doing it, and they’re socioeconomically near identical to the married couples, and have the same number of kids.

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[–]TheGreasyPole1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Women remain perma girlfriends and become essentially SAHMs within their LTRs “all the time”? News to me.

Was just confirming to you that, women do in fact do this all the time. It wasn't just his anecdata. I was confirming that it was the correct news.

Thats why I went and googled the stats. I saw this thread back when it was just 10 "lol. No's".

And I thought...

1) Red Pill guys are going to say this happens, and the girls are going to gesture to the thread and their personal experience and say it didn't.

THEN if shown it does happen...

2) The girls would all say it's prole women, not women of the same SES as them.

THEN if shown it was women with the same SES profile as them...

3) The girls would all say they might be cohabiting but wouldn't have a BABY with the guy...

And I was fairly sure all that wouldn't be right. Or at least, I wanted to know for sure one way or the other.... so I looked up the demographic study... and pasted it in the thread for when the women posting "Lol. No. Get outa here. No woman would do that. Look at all the answers in this thread and/or I don't know any woman who did this" it was all there ready to go.

It's nowhere near as common as marriage, but it's still plenty of women, of a standard SES mix, and they have babies "out of wedlock" too.

[–]sublimemongrel2 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]TheGreasyPole1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]monkeysinmypocket0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]sublimemongrelBecky, Esq.0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]belletaco2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

[–]whitetrashcarlselfish ghost3 points4 points5 points 8 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

[–]belletaco8 points9 points10 points 8 years ago (17 children) | Copy Link

[–]whitetrashcarlselfish ghost1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

[–]belletaco5 points6 points7 points 8 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

[–]whitetrashcarlselfish ghost0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago* (9 children) | Copy Link

[–]belletaco2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin2 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]whitetrashcarl2 points 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]TheGreasyPoleObjectively Pro-moderate filth0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]belletaco1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]TheGreasyPoleObjectively Pro-moderate filth0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]belletaco1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]TheGreasyPole1 point 8 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]thinkytoes0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]whitetrashcarlselfish ghost0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]thinkytoes0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

It really isnt.

People ignore real concerns men have because enough of them will rain their 401ks on literal hoes who dont love them

Then say women are the devil.

Not all men lack self awareness of course But its the culture. Shes pretty? You have threads arguing against education and career from women

Pretty face from poor stock then expect the rest of us to take these lsd riddled imaginary scenarios seriously

Lol "just dont marry her bro. Jjst have kids no commitment marriage isn't fair".

I watch old men die alone as part of my line of work. Ita heart wrenching. Not alone bc their wives died. Alone because family wasnt a worthy investment.

Oh well.

I dont care if every next chick til kingdom come humors these dudes. I wont. Many women of value wont. The ones who do will cost you so much more dearly than a wife coukd anyway so its all fair in the end.

Im so fucking over the bullshit.

Dont like marriage, dont get married. But unless youre a likable billi, tough shit. Because even Melania Trump isnt with that PDA handholding on fucking camera.

#PSA

[–]whitetrashcarlselfish ghost0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]crackrocksteady7Jason tell me what you're chasing1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]says_harsh_thingsRed Pill - Chad6 points7 points8 points 8 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin🔪Yeetus that Feetus🔪[S] 6 points7 points8 points 8 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Atlas_B_Shruggin🔪Yeetus that Feetus🔪[S] 7 points8 points9 points 8 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Cho_AssmilkArrogant RP S.O.B.1 point2 points3 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]whitetrashcarlselfish ghost0 points1 point2 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]goatismycopilotPurple Pill Woman-1 points0 points1 point 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Title	would you....
Author	Atlas_B_Shruggin
Upvotes	28
Comments	574
Date	May 23, 2018 3:21 PM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/8lk7cm/would_you/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/would-you.262285 https://theredarchive.com/post/262285

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