Help this feminist understand.

IanHawkess · 2022-10-05T18:01:12+00:00

Feminist mothers of sons have a really interesting point of view. They’re suddenly watching the struggles of a man they care deeply about. It’s a lightbulb moment. I think we’re all well aware of the struggles of women (how could we not be, there’s wall to wall coverage of them?).

Kristina Hoff-Sommers is worth a read. Your reaction is to ‘bristle’ at the idea that men could have any issues and that’s normal. Most male struggle is treated with hostility or outright contempt by society.

I think it’s great you’re trying to challenge your assumptions. I’m an ex-feminist ‘ally’, and I’ve found myself here, a little confused but in no doubt that society seems to tilt (now) overwhelmingly in favour of women, at an institutional level if not at a societal level universally.

Eleusis713 · 2022-10-05T18:45:51+00:00

1 - where did feminism go wrong? Feminism - as I understand it - shouldn’t be about man bashing. Quite the opposite! It ought to be concerned with gender equity for everyone, but instead it’s lead to combativeness.

Feminism has always been a problematic ideology/movement all the way back to the Declaration of Sentiments from the Seneca Falls Convention in 1848. It had all the same anti-male hatred we see today in modern feminism. Then there were the suffragettes who were literally terrorists who targeted politicians with letter bombs and IEDs. They also started the white feather campaign to shame men who didn't enlist into war.

In more recent history, feminists created the Duluth model, pushed for primary aggressor laws, redefined rape to specifically erase male victims and female perpetrators, have opposed shared funding for male and female DV shelters, have protested against opening men's shelters and have gotten them shut down, constantly spread misinformation about DV and rape stats, etc. etc. Here's a longer, more detailed list with many sources.

Regardless of whether you personally agree or not with feminists who've done these horrendous things, they are more representative of feminism than random people out in the world living their lives. Feminists doing these things are not just a few bad apples or random nuts on twitter making feminism look bad. Many of these feminists are actual feminist professors, academics, writers, etc. who do understand feminist theory and have massive influence over society and politics. They are the face of feminism.

Feminism has, over decades, positioned itself in opposition to gender equality. Anyone who truly understands and advocates for equality will find themselves confronted with a feminist with opposing goals at some point. However true gender equality is achieved, it won't be under the banner of feminism or with the aid of feminist ideas.

2 - feminism can be defined so many different ways. Sometimes it’s about gender equity and sometimes it’s unapologetic misandry. What IS feminism and how do we ensure we are being precise enough in our word choice to avoid misunderstandings?

Feminism is not synonymous with "equal rights" or "gender equality". This definition is used as a way to try and get people to adopt the label of "feminist" without thinking very hard. People who support equality are actually called "egalitarians" not feminists. Feminism is an ideology, a set of beliefs and assumptions about the world and the way the world should work. All flavors of feminism boil down to an inaccurate and simplistic framing of the world which leads people to inaccurate and harmful conclusions. There are no ideologies above criticism and feminism is certainly no exception.

3 - And finally what advice would you give a feminist raising a son?

I don't have kids and I'm never going to, so I don't have too much to offer in the way of advice. However, you may want to consider starting your son a year later in school if you can. It's been known within developmental psychology for a long time that boys mature slower than girls and this contributes, in large part, to why men/boys have fallen far behind women/girls throughout education at nearly every level throughout the entire developed world. And I'm sure the well-documented anti-male bias in early education by predominantly female teachers only exacerbates this problem.

You also should avoid using feminist ideas to inform your parenting. Much of academic feminist thought behind concepts like "toxic masculinity" simply amount to victim blaming men for their problems. Language like this is simply unconstructive and inflammatory.

I’ve been lurking on this thread for a while and am impressed (for the most part) by the well reasoned discussions and willingness to embrace the grey areas in understanding gender issues.

If you're looking to learn more about men's issues, then you might want to check out the Red Pill documentary by Cassie Jaye for more information. Here's her TEDx talk. She's a feminist who made a documentary about the men's rights movement and thought she would be exposing them as hateful misogynists. She learned through thoughtful introspection that she was the one who had bigoted views and ended up agreeing with many of the people she interviewed.

The documentary goes through her journey learning about the men's movement and the role feminism has played in downplaying and dismissing men's issues. Her YouTube channel has many uncut interviews from the documentary that are worth watching.

You could also check out r/LeftWingMaleAdvocates for discussions about men's issues from a more left-leaning perspective.

EDIT: Spelling, grammar, and added more information.

JustSomeYukoner · 2022-10-05T18:22:10+00:00

Raise him as an egalitarian, and not a feminist.

In my opinion, raise him to forgive, but not forget. You don’t want to let hate fester inside him, but also you don’t want him to fall for the same thing again.

He will be wronged for owning a penis. He will be vilified for owning a penis. He will be seen as the perpetrator for owning a penis. He will be seen as a rapist looking for an opportunity because he owns a penis.

He will need to let these things go, and learn that it isn’t his fault for owning a penis. The scales aren’t in mens favour in modern society, and quite frankly are quite severely against him.

Raise him that expressing his emotions, all of them, is good and healthy. Raise him that asking for help is a sign of strength. Raise him to know that he is human and that he will be hurt, but it’s his responsibility to heal himself.

war_m0nger69 · 2022-10-05T20:50:26+00:00

For having posted in this sub, you will have been labeled an incel and banned from some other subreddit. This, in my opinion, is a pretty good illustration of how modern feminism has gone from equality to misandry.

CawlinAlcarz · 2022-10-05T18:20:17+00:00

I'm going to leave this here for you to consider, as you consider what the term "Feminist" REALLY means and what this means for your son.

The following is a very informed comment by Karen Straughan in response to a feminist who thinks the many blatant sexists among feminists aren't real feminists:

So what you're saying is that you, a commenter using a username on an internet forum are the true feminist, and the feminists actually responsible for changing the laws, writing the academic theory, teaching the courses, influencing the public policies, and the massive, well-funded feminist organizations with thousands and thousands of members all of whom call themselves feminists... they are not "real feminists".

That's not just "no true Scotsman". That's delusional self deception.

Listen, if you want to call yourself a feminist, I don't care. I've been investigating feminism for more than 9 years now, and people like you used to piss me off, because to my mind all you were doing was providing cover and ballast for the powerful political and academic feminists you claim are just jerks. And believe me, they ARE jerks. If you knew half of what I know about the things they've done under the banner of feminism, maybe you'd stop calling yourself one.

But I want you to know. You don't matter.

You're not the director of the Feminist Majority Foundation and editor of Ms. Magazine, Katherine Spillar, who said of domestic violence: "Well, that's just a clean-up word for wife-beating," and went on to add that regarding male victims of dating violence, "we know it's not girls beating up boys, it's boys beating up girls."

You're not Jan Reimer, former mayor of Edmonton and long-time head of Alberta's Network of Women's Shelters, who just a few years ago refused to appear on a TV program discussing male victims of domestic violence, because for her to even show up and discuss it would lend legitimacy to the idea that they exist.

You're not Mary P Koss, who describes male victims of female rapists in her academic papers as being not rape victims because they were "ambivalent about their sexual desires" (if you don't know what that means, it's that they actually wanted it), and then went on to define them out of the definition of rape in the CDC's research because it's inappropriate to consider what happened to them rape.

You're not the National Organization for Women, and its associated legal foundations, who lobbied to replace the gender neutral federal Family Violence Prevention and Services Act of 1984 with the obscenely gendered Violence Against Women Act of 1994. The passing of that law cut male victims out of support services and legal assistance in more than 60 passages, just because they were male.

You're not the Florida chapter of the NOW, who successfully lobbied to have Governor Rick Scott veto not one, but two alimony reform bills in the last ten years, bills that had passed both houses with overwhelming bipartisan support, and were supported by more than 70% of the electorate.

You're not the feminist group in Maryland who convinced every female member of the House on both sides of the aisle to walk off the floor when a shared parenting bill came up for a vote, meaning the quorum could not be met and the bill died then and there.

You're not the feminists in Canada agitating to remove sexual assault from the normal criminal courts, into quasi-criminal courts of equity where the burden of proof would be lowered, the defendant could be compelled to testify, discovery would go both ways, and defendants would not be entitled to a public defender.

You're not Professor Elizabeth Sheehy, who wrote a book advocating that women not only have the right to murder their husbands without fear of prosecution if they make a claim of abuse, but that they have the moral responsibility to murder their husbands.

You're not the feminist legal scholars and advocates who successfully changed rape laws such that a woman's history of making multiple false allegations of rape can be excluded from evidence at trial because it's "part of her sexual history."

You're not the feminists who splattered the media with the false claim that putting your penis in a passed-out woman's mouth is "not a crime" in Oklahoma, because the prosecutor was incompetent and charged the defendant under an inappropriate statute (forcible sodomy) and the higher court refused to expand the definition of that statute beyond its intended scope when there was already a perfectly good one (sexual battery) already there. You're not the idiot feminists lying to the public and potentially putting women in Oklahoma at risk by telling potential offenders there's a "legal" way to rape them.

And you're none of the hundreds or thousands of feminist scholars, writers, thinkers, researchers, teachers and philosophers who constructed and propagate the body of bunkum theories upon which all of these atrocities are based.

You're the true feminist. Some random person on the internet.

CawlinAlcarz · 2022-10-05T18:09:45+00:00

When you talk about "equity" do you really mean "equity" or do you mean "equality"? The reason I ask is because the two are different.

Equality means everyone gets the same shot at whatever goal and are left to their own devices to get there, without any impedences based on their sex, sexuality, "race", etc., but without any particular special help.

Equity means that some people are given advantages over others to ensure that all get the same outcome.

In this milieu, equality can be likened to the concept of "equality of opportunity", and equity can be likened to the concept of "equality of outcome".

Equality of outcome, by definition, means that some will work harder to get the same that some get by working less. Some will be artificially excluded from something they've earned in order to ensure that someone ELSE who may not have actually earned it gets that, to ensure "equity".

In short, let's say you're a hiring manager and there are two candidates for a job. One is well qualified, but is male, and the particular company already has 75% men employed. One is not as qualified, but is female.

Which person are you going to give the job to, and why?

duhhhh · 2022-10-05T17:49:17+00:00

And finally what advice would you give a feminist raising a son?

Don't blame him for the sins of other men
Tell him that in a typical year he is as likely to be a victim of nonconsensual sex as a woman, and there is an 80% chance a woman will be the perpetrator. Thanks to feminist policy, nonconsensually enveloped men do not count as rape victims and there are little to any rape resources available to the enveloped. Almost all support focuses on the penetrated. If the perpetrator gets pregnant, he will owe her monthly payments for 18-21 years even if she is convicted for the act of conception.
Tell him than 10% of men report being victims of reproductive coersion. He should guard his sperm as if it is worth a million dollars. Always use condoms. Wash out condoms before disposing of them. Stealthing is illegal. Stopping the pill or removing an IUD without informing your partner is not.
Tell him he is as likely to be physically abused by his partner as a woman. The type of domestic violence where people get hurt most often is mutual abuse, so don't hit back. Do the minimum necessary to run away. Do not call the police. Thanks to feminist public policy men calling the police because their wives are beating them are more likely to be arrested than the perpetrator.
Tell him he matters just as much as women, his consent matters just as much as women, and his worth of a human being matters just as much as women.

EmirikolWoker · 2022-10-05T18:44:58+00:00

1) where did feminism go wrong? Feminism - as I understand it - shouldn’t be about man bashing. Quite the opposite! It ought to be concerned with gender equity for everyone, but instead it’s lead to combativeness.

2) feminism can be defined so many different ways. Sometimes it’s about gender equity and sometimes it’s unapologetic misandry

The foundational principles of all flavours of feminism (class warfare between men and women with men winning, shorthanded as "Patriarchy") are inherrently anti-male when you examine what needs to be true for it to accurately describe reality. Feminists can claim that it's "just about equality", but it's equality based on bigotted assumptions, presuming psychopathy on the part of men as a class. This was true right from the start - have a look at the Declaration of Sentiments from the first wave.

Mens rights advocacy, and Egalitarian values in general, are innately anti-feminist.

WhereProgressIsMade · 2022-10-05T18:26:31+00:00

A very simple test to see if something is probably sexist or racist is to swap the sexes/races. If it now sounds wrong/inappropriate, the original statement is probably sexist/racist too. Following it and teaching your kids to apply it will go a long ways.

Reddit1984Censorship · 2022-10-05T17:42:35+00:00

Where did feminism go wrong?
Precisely at the moment where women needed to be hold accountable, where women needed to be punished, where women need edto lose their privileges to achieve the supposed equality.
Feminism failed and mutated into a not jsut man hating but actualyl man hurting and destroying because its incapable of takign away anything from women.
Right form the very start, are you gonna tell me feminism is capable of revolutionazing society to get the female vote, yet they are uncapable of adding women to the draft? Of course not, what happens is that they can only give stuff to women but never take away form women.
Are you gonna tell me feminism is capable of removign the houswive gender role, yet they are uncapable fo fixing family court divorce raping men? Of course they can and could if they wanted to, but that would be taking away from women, and they will never ever ever allow for that.
This effect snowballs overtime inevitably into female supremacy, your son is going to grow up ina world bombarding him with self hatred and gaslightning and perform at 50% of what he should have in a fair society.

DavidByron2 · 2022-10-05T18:38:24+00:00

where did feminism go wrong?

It didn't. It was a successful anti-male hate movement from the beginning. Well from about the 1890s. Before then it was a bit of a joke.

Feminism - as I understand it

So you're saying you don't know anything about feminism? eg did you know that in 1848 at the so-called birth of feminism the feminists declared war on men? ("Declaration of Sentiments")

feminism can be defined so many different ways. Sometimes it’s about gender equity and sometimes it’s unapologetic misandry

It's always about hate. What you're saying sounds like people who defend cops and say oh the bad cops are only a minority. The problem is if none of the "good" cops ever do anything to stop the bad cops, that means they're all bad cops.

what advice would you give a feminist raising a son?

Well let me give you a statistic. This was from a BBC article a few years back so the data is British but if you're USA I guess it's similar. They found that by the time they were four years old little girls had figured out that adults thought little girls were better than little boys. Little boys took until eight years old to accept the same thing. Now since you're a feminist I'm sure they'll get the message that male = bad much sooner.

And that's basically child abuse.

DavidByron2 · 2022-10-05T19:42:36+00:00

Sometimes it’s about gender equity and sometimes it’s unapologetic misandry

I'm thinking of starting a movement where some of the people are strict vegans and the rest are cannibals. Because they have so much in common those two groups. What should I call this new movement since "feminism" is already taken?

Just AuuuuuGHHHHHHHH.

I hear that quoted line so much from feminist apologetics as if it makes any sense. You can't have a movement made up of two groups of people with directly opposing belief systems on the same issue. That makes no sense. So why do you pretend to believe it? Why don't the two halves of this so-called movement ever fight? Why would both sides accept -- as you do here -- that the other half are perfectly legitimate members of the same movement?

Just listen to yourself.

You just said your movement thinks hate mongers are perfectly legitimate members. At best you are saying you personally and as an individual happen to disagree with them. But you still say they are legitimately feminists. That means you do NOT think feminism as a movement is about equality. In your own words you just said feminism is a movement that is perfectly OK with hating men.

If a movement said "It's OK to be in our movement if you think Jews are evil subhuman filth and they smell bad" -- would you think that movement was for equality or racism?

Traditional_Two_1377 · 2022-10-05T20:57:06+00:00

Norah Vincent - Self-made man

A book written by a woman who tried living as a man for 18 months.

maxlvb · 2022-10-05T22:22:12+00:00

who is hoping to learn more about the gender-based challenges faced by my husband and our baby boy.

FYI:

Real equality today...

Men are 97% of combat fatalities.
Men make up 94% of work suicides.
Men make up 93% of work fatalities.
Men make up 81% of all war deaths.
80% of all suicides are men.
77% of homicide victims are men.
89% of men will be the victim of at least one violent crime.
Men are over twice as victimised by strangers as women.
Men are 165% more likely to be convicted than women.
Men get 63% longer sentences than women for the same crime.
Court bias against men is at least 6 times bigger than racial bias.
Males are discriminated against in school and universities.
Boys face vastly more corporal punishment than girls.
60-80% of the homeless are men.
Women's cancers receive 15 times more funding than men's.
At least 10% of fathers are victims of paternity fraud.
One third of all fathers have lost custody of children; most are expected to pay for this.
Men lose custody in 84% of divorces.
Men pay 97% of Alimony

I am all for equality. I'm for the equality in which women stand equally with men, in the eyes of the law, and in court (for alimony, custody, visitation, etc.), as well as arrest and prosecution for using physical, psychological, and emotional means to cause harm.

1) where did feminism go wrong?

“One of the reasons for the failure of feminism to dislodge deeply held perceptions of male and female behaviour was its insistence that women were victims, and men powerful patriarchs, which made a travesty of ordinary people's experience of the mutual interdependence of men and women.”

Rosalind Coward

Feminism - as I understand it - shouldn’t be about man bashing.

It is, and always has been, and it's not just 'radical feminists' who are to blame...

“Womanism is feminism's vulgate. It asserts that women are the oppressed or the victims and never the collaborators in the 'bad' things that men do.

It entails a double standard around sexuality where women's sexual self-expression is seen as necessary and even desirable, but men's is seen as dangerous or even disgusting.

Womanism is by no means confined to a tiny, politically motivated bunch of man-hating feminists, but is a regular feature of mainstream culture.”

Quite the opposite! It ought to be concerned with gender equity for everyone, but instead it’s lead to combativeness.

Feminists like to claim that their movement is about "equality" and often use the dictionary definition as proof. But what the dictionary says and what feminism and feminists do are two completely different things. Actions speak louder than words, therefore feminism and feminists should be judged by what it and they do instead of what the dictionary definition says. And through its actions the feminist movement has constantly shows that it isn't about equality, but is actually about female privilege and misandry - a skewed system in women's favour, seeking superior rights & privileges for women, demonising men & boys. It is very obvious that "equality" is nothing more than a mask that the feminist movement uses to conceal its female privilege and anti-male agendas.

feminism can be defined so many different ways.

There are hundreds of different kinds of feminism. But ALL feminists talk about feminism, and believe in feminism. That makes you all feminists...

What IS feminism and how do we ensure we are being precise enough in our word choice to avoid misunderstandings?

Watching silently as hateful acts are done in feminism's name does not exempt you from responsibility for those acts, it only shows that you prefer someone else to do the dirty work for you, so you could show your hands some day and say, "look, see? my feminist hands are clean".

The biggest problem with feminism is when you have feminists saying "Those aren't REAL feminists" or "Feminism isn't a monolith" If they aren't 'real' feminists then the 'real' feminists need to do a better job policing these 'false feminists'.

And finally what advice would you give a feminist raising a son?

Stop being a feminist.

HTH

Feminism was and is always a supremacy movement, and feminists will do what ever it takes to keep perpetuating it. This necessitates playing on people's emotions and painting MRA's as evil regardless of the truth. Therefore to succeed MRA's must expose the nature of feminism and give feminism zero moral ground.

NurturedByNature_0_0 · 2022-10-05T17:55:08+00:00

You seem like a reasonable person and you have good questions.

I will try to be brief and say that my main issue with feminism is the assumption and view that men = privileged while women = oppressed. When in reality when it comes to gender, there are a ton of issues that exist for both sides and when it comes to achieving anything close to gender equality both of those sides need to be acknowledged. There are issues that affect women, and we should care about them and there are issues that effect men and we should be care about them.

As for advice about raising a son, there could literally be entire books written on the subject and instead of doing that or listing a dozen + mens/boys issues that you could find in other places, the best thing I would say is to just have empathy. Recognize that just as there are issues that affect women/girls and unique issues that your daughter may have, there are also issues that effect men/boys and unique issues your son can and will face. And to have empathy and compassion about these issues in the same way that you would with your daughter.

Also never make it a competition of "who has it worse", that is one of the worst things anybody can do with issues like this... whether it be men vs women or other social groups. Its just awful

IceCorrect · 2022-10-05T18:31:43+00:00

Feminism fought only for women rights with no responsibilities, like right to vote with no need to be drafted. Body positivity its great example of this. Also all of shaming men about them being "controling", while they just put boundaries. How its male job to keep women safe even if they put themself in dangerous situation.
So if today we have gender equality then feminsm should be gone, so why there is still need for it in public spaces? If feminism is about gender equality, then tell me 1 situation when femists choose to give up their privilages to make things equal?
That he have less rights and more responsibilities. Gov will not help him at any time. He need to protect his seed at any time, beacuse when men cum, he have no rights for his sperm

oncothrow · 2022-10-05T18:12:56+00:00

First, thank you for coming with the sincere intention of dialogue. That's a character trait that's far too rare on the internet, whatever group you're in.

I guess I have several questions: 1) where did feminism go wrong? Feminism - as I understand it - shouldn’t be about man bashing. Quite the opposite! It ought to be concerned with gender equity for everyone, but instead it’s lead to combativeness.

Many people here don't actually have no issue with gender equity. However, more modern strains of feminism do seem to be pushing (as you say) to be more combative. It's no longer about "all of us working together to solve the problem", it's about the person being correct or incorrect. Being "male" should not inherently equate to "enemy of women", but there's a lot of broad-brushstroke feminism that basically does just that (and will often deny this to be the case).

2) feminism can be defined so many different ways. Sometimes it’s about gender equity and sometimes it’s unapologetic misandry. What IS feminism and how do we ensure we are being precise enough in our word choice to avoid misunderstandings?

I feel like this is a question better asked of feminists themselves. As you say, feminism is actually a wide and varied group. 2d wave, 3rd wave, 4th wave, libfem, radfem, TERF, SWERF... it goes on and you can fall into more than one category depending on what your specific views and issues are.

In general terms though, if you're targetting the problem directly, and not just casting "Men as the problem", then you're usually being precise enough. Nobody likes the rhetoric of things like "men are trash", "men are scum" etc. but when you try to push back on it in any feminist space you get immediate pushback as if the complaints are invalid (even as they simultaneously recognise that 1) the terms are too broad, and 2) they still don't see that anything needs to be done about it).

3) And finally what advice would you give a feminist raising a son?

The most general advice is being a kind and loving parent. See him for who he is first, not as a "male" that happens to be your child. Raise him to be kind and caring of others, to have legitimate boundaries and to respect other's boundaries in turn. Understand that there's nothing "broken" in him if he acts differently to your daughter. That there's good behaviour and bad behaviour (and you act accordingly to encourage one and discourage the other), but outside of that there's a whole swathe of traits and behaviours that are just "personality" and may not need anything changing at all.

There's no need to pathologise active and vigorous and boisterous behaviour (done within appropriate context, time and place) if he wants to be that way, just as there isn't if he's more quiet and introspective in behaviour. Let him be who he is to a large extent as long as he's happy, he doesn't hurt anyone else, and you're helping him live up to his potential (whatever he wants to do).

Ultimately men are not inherently oppressors. There are good and bad men, and you want to raise your child to be good, but not in a fearful manner, thinking that "as a male I have to struggle against my very being, otherwise I will default to being an oppressor". That way leads to him constantly doubting himself, vast amounts of insecurity, and unhappiness. Ultimately he needs to be confident in being good, confident that he has good intentions, even when others misinterpret or try to cast him as bad, and be able to learn and accept on occasion when he has been wrong and correct himself. That kind of introspection isn't always easy.

This turned out to be more generic advice than anything. I guess I feel like "feminist" or not, what you're really looking for is for your son to become a man who is confident in himself, good to others, can stand up for himself, and can accept when he's made mistakes and move on. But that these are all traits that you'd want in your daughter as well.

pearl_harbour1941 · 2022-10-05T20:18:24+00:00

As a mother to a son, you will need to know that all preschool teachers, all primary teachers, most middle and high school teachers will mark your boy down, just for being a boy.

He will be seen as a natural trouble maker just because.

The entire education system is designed to favor girls and disadvantage boys (often simple things like boys having structurally sharper sitting bones than girls, which makes it uncomfortable for boys to sit for long periods of time, making them look ADHD as they shift in their seat or get up, when in fact they are simply in pain and trying to minimise that pain).

Your lovely boy will automatically, intuitively know not to hit girls, you will not need to tell him. From a very early age he will instinctively put himself in danger, just to protect girls. This will not be taught or learned, he will just do it. That you even think he may be capable of rape will hurt him to his core.

Your precious boy will face false accusations by girls, and even if you prove the girls lied, he will still face punishment and the girls will not.

Your job as him mom is to try to understand the world from his point of view, protect him from the natural discrimination he inevitably will face every week of his life, if you can, and to believe him.

Good luck. Please stay in touch with all the good men here and in your life, and thank you for asking our opinions.

ArcturasMooCow · 2022-10-05T21:04:35+00:00

It's fairly simple...the world views men as expendable. We get the grunt work, not the desk chair. The shaft in court. The blame of society. Men are essentially simple beings: we want food, sex, love, and fun. We hope for respect. When we get older, a man is expected to work until he dies: Men Die, Women Inherit. Women shop for a bad boy to screw then gravitate to a rich man to marry. This is the Game. Every other man is off the radar: If his body broken he's out of the game. If he has mental health or childhood abuse issues, he's viewed as weak, and out of the game. If he is a good man, but poor, he's out of the game. If he cries, that is, shows a full range of human emotions, he's weak and out of the game. So when the faux feminist ends up over 40 and alone, I have zero sympathy for her. Those women are bullets missed. They had their chance, and blew it. I'm happy their life expectancy is more than men. No one is entitled to a happy ending.

Who wins the game with faux feminists? Cats. Also wine makers and sex toy manufacturers. The Cow has spoken. Moo 🐮

agenericusername9 · 2022-10-05T22:12:01+00:00

I want to open with saying this is the most exciting post I have seen. Mainly because I love to see women starting to recognize that gender issues are not one sided and I absolutely love that you’ve come to men to ask for our help. It’s super encouraging and speaks on your character (in immensely positive ways).

So let’s address these questions you have. 1. Feminism went wrong when it shut men out of the conversation. When it became about superiority over men rather than cooperation with men, feminism lost. When it became about which gender struggles more and not how can we eliminate struggles each gender faces, that’s when it became a movement fuelled by bigotry. If you look at my post history I have a post where I asked this group and the men in it, what lead them to this group and how they felt about feminism. Read the comments a lot of them are very very insightful for how we as men are being treated and how even when we, in good faith, want to help we get berated and insulted.

We just go by egalitarianism to make things clear. Most of the men here have admitted they would consider themselves feminist if the definition matched egalitarianism or they just outright say “I am egalitarian.” That’s the definition most of the men will agree with, but most say feminism modern day is a superiority complex, however they would support feminism if it ACTUALLY meant egalitarian.
Alright, this is a bit of a doozy. Basically, NEVER shun him for his feelings, his interests etc, young boys still need attention the same as any child does. Here’s a big thing, teach him how to talk to women it isn’t actually intrinsic to boys it needs to be taught. Here’s a big big big one. DO NOT let you or your husband’s feelings get in the way of raising the boy, this means if shit hits the fan don’t involve him. Keep him as distanced. This will give him a foundation, and family as a foundation will give the boy a chance to love others the way he was loved. Of course punishment is necessary so all the normal things a child needs is necessary. Encourage extra curricular activities that teach self control and discipline, a disciplined boy will grow up to be a man you will be proud of. And another thing I can tell you, is listen. Please listen. He won’t necessarily be listened to by others so be an ear for him. And if you don’t listen he will never express himself freely with you. But making sure he understands what love is and making she he gets the concept of consent and family are trivial to his development. The other things is watch for feministic stuff, a lot of it is super damaging to a young boys self esteem. OH this is a big one too, teach him about establishing boundaries with him and others, the sooner he grasps the concept of boundaries the less chance he has to be accused of SA/rape and the sooner he stands a chance at avoiding awful women in dating. Teach him to watch for dangerous behaviours in women and men.

These are things I’m telling you as an autistic child who grew up with a narcissistic father and a mother who never sought mental health help. She didn’t listen to me from when I was young (as she’s very feminist) and now our relationship at this moment has deteriorated to a point where I want 0 to do with her or my father. They destroyed the foundation I had with family in which everything else in my head is built on so you can only imagine where in life I am. I am also an ex feminist ally. Raised as a feminist by my mother.

Asking for help is a good sign already, never be afraid to let your husband handle it either, guys have some weird silent language only we get.

WeEatBabies · 2022-10-05T18:09:50+00:00

where did feminism go wrong?

The moment you started silencing men :

https://www.instagram.com/p/CfeFR0pNeQE/

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2016/oct/26/the-red-pill-melbourne-cinema-drops-mens-rights-film-after-feminist-backlash

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GO_X4DkwA_Q

feminism can be defined so many different ways.

We define feminism by it's actions, laws and policies they passed, not by the words they say, because there is a huge disconnect.

https://7news.com.au/lifestyle/personal-finance/one-off-cash-grant-of-up-to-5000-for-women-left-unemployed-due-to-pandemic-c-1591391

https://www.npr.org/2010/02/01/123202099/new-program-for-food-aid-in-haiti-targets-women

https://www.tiktok.com/@doublestandarsexposed/video/7135379531556244742?is_copy_url=1&is_from_webapp=v1

And finally what advice would you give a feminist raising a son?

Raise to be an egalitarian!

TheSnesLord · 2022-10-05T18:34:40+00:00

where did feminism go wrong?

Since it was formed. It was a misandrist hate movement at the root from the start.

Raining_Hope · 2022-10-05T18:30:31+00:00

1) I don't know where feminism went wrong in the first place or any offshoot after that. But right now it's grown from being a movement to basically representing women anywhere and everywhere. A problem there is that if there are any issues with feminism it seems like it's taken super personal to be about criticism women in general. And by that response alone you get the response that men are misogynist for not agreeing with anything and everything that either feminism or women dish out. Srlerate yourselves from the movement, please. Even if you remain a feminist, do not hold that as part of your identify of being a woman. Because men like me who've grown up with feminism blasting men all the time eventually wares on you to get better and angry at the whole thing. Even when we see women need help and to have a collective voice from women in general, we can't accept or tolerate feminism because we'll we know better. In other words I'm asking you and feminists in general to not identify yourselves with one of the single most toxic thing directed towards men for several generations in a row, and I'll try not to be bitter at women in general because of the toxicity and harm feminism caused. (I can't speak for anyone else but right now my journey is to not be bitter at women in general because of feminism. After that, do whatever you can to take critism without lashing out. Because their is a lot of critism about feminism that isn't getting any better and if it's ever mentioned the women as a whole lash out and try to insult and gaslight men into silence. Making either silent men, or a very bitter people who decide to not stay silent any more.

2) Defining feminism. Maybe at one time it was about equality, it at least the original cause was trying to go in that direction, but that can be argued either way. Where feminism is at now has nothing to do with equality. It's about being organized to get what you want, and for a voice for women by women. And if that was all it was without trying to step on men on your way to happiness, then I think I might support it a lot more. Because I still do think women have their own issues that are worth trying to help. If you take my advice I'd just call feminism a voice for women aby women and it explains why it's so scattered and sometimes about equality and other times wanting to watch the world burn because men are part of it.

3) Tell your son you love him. Durning the young years he'll probably soak it up, and in teenage years he'll ask you to stop and be embarrassed by it. But the reality is you might be one of the only people who will tell him this regularly. And I beg you to keep that part to heart as much as you can. After a failed relationship I thought about suicide a few times. Because we'll it's not a healthy mindset after a hard breakup and the thought that you can't be loved.). After that time my parents telling me I was loved helped me through a really dark period.

Your son might face something similar, and even if he doesn't it isn't that common for your girlfriend or spouse to say they love you on a regular basis, unless the guy says it first. So tell him it often because you might be the only one who does.

themolestedsliver · 2022-10-05T22:46:19+00:00

Other people have said more detailed things but I just want to let you know you are an amazing mom for this.

Instead of doubling down and creating strife you decided to put yourself out there and learn more about the male condition and our unique challenges to help you son.

Too many women willfully ignore that and I hope you instill that general mindset in your daughter as well as your son.

Thank you for being willing to learn when its certainly going against the grain.

thisherepoo · 2022-10-06T10:17:55+00:00

Feminism went afoul at the end of the 19th century, when there were actual problems centered around equality amongst the sexes or lack thereof. When you attempt to demonize men and break them down, you stop being a feminist. You become another member of a man-bashing cult. Men do not need to be broken down in order for women to obtain equality.

Punder_man · 2022-10-05T19:04:40+00:00

Good morning from New Zealand, I have to admit that as far as feminist posters go this post has been one of the more reasonable ones i've seen in this sub for a long time, your responses also indicate that you are actually interested in having your views of feminism challenged so color me impressed, if nothing else you have my respect.

Now, onto your questions, I shall do my best to be brief but I have a habit of writing mini essays sometimes..

Anyway lets start with the biggest question:

where did feminism go wrong?

This is somewhat of a loaded question because depending on who you ask the answer will range from "The very beginning" to "right after the 2nd wave of feminism"

I will begin by saying that despite my views of the movement now, I do believe that the movement had good intentions and a worthy goal.However where it went wrong in my opinion is when after gaining momentum and achieving victories for women's rights they used that momentum to push for changes which swung the pendulum in the opposite direction under the guise of Women have been oppressed since forever or that they were balancing the scales..

This has led to many policies, regulations and even laws which outright discriminate against men. As an example of what I mean, Feminists campaigned to the UN to get Female Genital Mutilation (FGM) outlawed and condemned. Now, that's not in itself an issue as I fully agree that we shouldn't be mutilating the genitals of girls / women.

However, when asked why the same protection couldn't be extended to have Male Circumcision be classified as Male Genital Mutilation and thus also condemned / outlawed by the UN most feminists would sneer at us and go on about how "FGM" is much worse than Male Circumcision or how "Feminism isn't for men!" or "Why don't you do it yourselves!" etc.

This is one of the main sticking points for me as, feminism had a golden opportunity to prove that it was a movement for equality but the movement it ego get in the way.

We also have feminism to thank for the biased and broken Duluth Model of Domestic Violence. A model created by feminists whom allowed their ingrained biases to dictate the model.

As a result the Model automatically assumes that in any / all cases of DV involving a man and a women it is always the man who is the aggressor while the woman is always the victim.This alone has resulted in the near complete erasure of male victims of domestic violence from the statistics because not only are men rarely believed when they come forward to report their abuse at the hands of their female partners, they often get told by the system that women are the victims of DV.

In many countries, the crime of Rape is specifically defined to imply that only men can commit rape (In many countries it was also previously defined that only women could be victims of rape but this has been changed) Not only that but society views women raping boys / men as not as serious than when the genders are switched. If a female teacher rapes an underage student the media will often use headlines like "Female teacher had sex with underage male student" to try and minimize the crime committed.

But, when the genders are switched the headlines are often "Male teacher raped underage female student" which is designed to illicit outrage.

Finally, speaking as my experience as living in New Zealand my whole life, Feminism pushed for there to be both a Ministry and Minister of Women's Affairs, designed around allowing a channel for specific issues affecting women to be heard in Parliament. Once again, I don't have an issue with this specifically, however when we as men say "Why can't we have a minister and ministry for men too" we get told "The rest of parliament is for 'men'"

The other crux of where feminism has gone wrong is that it has turned "Calling out specific men for their actions, words etc" into "All men are complicit in the crimes of other men"I actually at one point in my earlier life used to consider myself a feminist as I thought "Yeah, Women do deserve the same rights / protections as men" however what pushed me away was the constant barrage from misandrists who called themselves feminists using feminism as a platform to spew their misandry with immunity.

And, as a man who has never done anything to women, it hurts to have women I have never met judge me based on the actions of men I have never met, will never met and whom I do not agree with.

Yet Feminism has taken the concept of original sin from Christianity and used it as a means to try and hold all men accountable for the bad deeds of men both now and in the past. Or how they use specifically gendered terms like "Toxic Masculinity" more as a weapon than an actual description of something wrong with society. Instead of using a more neutral term like "Toxic Gender Norms" they would rather cling to Toxic Masculinity as its the new bat that they use to beat men into silence with.

ExcellentWaffles · 2022-10-05T19:25:32+00:00

I was raised by staunch feminists and part of the problem I honestly think is that we have moved past the relevance of feminism itself. I don’t think everything is perfect but your not fighting the same battle women were a generation ago, at least in western culture. Feminism is an identity, not an actual movement anymore.

Limpopoallstars · 2022-10-05T21:22:54+00:00

The irony of feminism is that it is simply a version of the patriarchy, but for women.

The frontline of feminism, its leaders, are always the most masculine, the most full of testosterone.

Lesbians, shoulder-padded career woman, transgenders. The logical end result is masculine transgender types telling women how to be women.

There's plenty of foot-soldier feminists who are artistic, or hippyish, or earth-mother types. They are never the leaders. The leaders despise the followers because they are feminine.

If these followers were self-aware, you would think this would give them pause for thought. If they thought a bit, they might wonder why the masculine are leading them. By following the most masculine, they make a nonsense of their central claims.

PeonSupreme · 2022-10-05T21:23:15+00:00

Feminism doesn’t acknowledge the sacrifices men make to keep the infrastructure of civilization running.

Jmh1881 · 2022-10-05T21:33:11+00:00

feminism went wrong when it claimed to care about men but evidently it doesn't. If feminism truly believed that the patriarchy is a system that in the US equally harms men and women then I could get behind it. Problem is anytime a man's issues are acknowledged under feminism they're automatically brushed aside as being "mens fault", therefore it's not a real problem and women are the real victims.

For example, if you point out the higher incarnation rates for men feminists will usually say that it comes from the stereotype that women are more innocent, kind, and less violent and therefore women are really the victims of the situation because they're facing a sexist stereotype under the patriarchy. This logic is astounding to me and this same argument would never in a million years be made if you brought up the higher incarnation rates of black people. It would never be socially acceptable to say that white people are the victims in that sort of situation.

I don't necessarily think the patriarchy is a completely made up thing. It simply describes the system our society was built under where womne and men were made to fit under certian social roles. however, that doesn't mean that system harms women anymore than it harms men- at least not anymore now that women have all the same legal rights that men do. Feminists like to only half acknowledge the patriarchy- when its convenient for them. And that let's women avoid taking accountability.

When you're raised under a social system- and your parents were- and your grandparents were- it's going to influence you, the way you think, the way you behave. It doesn't matter where you ft into that social system. Meaning that women also have sexist ideas ingrained into them and are just as capable of upholding outdated social roles and stereotypes. However feminists don't really like to acknowledge this- at least not fully.

Here what I mean.

Man is sexist against women. Feminists: "He's upholding the patriarchy. He's sexist. He needs to unlearn his bias"

Man 1 is sexist against man 2. Feminists: "man 2 has no right to complain, after all, men are the ones that invented the patriarchy!"

Women is sexist against a women or a man 2. Feminists: "oh but she can help it, she has the patriarchy ingrained into her, it's not her fault. It's mens fault for creating and upholding the system"

See what I mean? Feminists will only acknowledge the patriarchy as a complex system when it's convenient for them. Men, no matter what scenario, are always to blame- even if they're the ones who are victims of sexism. It's still their fault, because somehow every single man is responsible for the patriarchy even if he isn't sexist himself and every single women is an innocent victim even if she's sexist herself, even if she tears down other women, even if she doesn't even claim to be a feminist. The ironic thing I'd that this entire train of logic in of itself upholds the sexist stereotype that women can't be independent or think and make decisions for themselves

The advice that I would give to tou as your raise your son is to listen. Listen to your son. Listen to your husband. Don't get up in arms. Also, don't complain about men or treat them like a monolith

My entire teenhood I heard ny mom and sister complain about men. If I ever dared to challenge them I was accused of being sexist. This taught me two things

1) I couldn't every really, fully, trust my mom. I had to put a guard up. There were certian feelings I had that I couldn't discuss because I'd be accused of being a sexist. For example I couldn't complain about how my manager at work only makes the men take the trash out.

2) I couldn't be a good person. I was a man and therefore by dedult a bad person. I couldn't be kind, sensitive, compassionate. That's not what men were. They were evil. And no matter what I said or did women woukd always view me as evil.

Basically...be careful that you aren't accidently enforcing the sexist ideas you want to oppose

Soda_BoBomb · 2022-10-05T22:43:17+00:00

Don't have any kids so I can't really give advice there, but I'd say maybe don't worry about equity in the first place.

Trying to achieve equity inevitably results in oppression.

Equality of opportunity is all that is realistically or morally achievable, equality of outcome is not.

Birdflower99 · 2022-10-05T23:13:23+00:00

Feminism got it wrong by introducing the made up “toxic masculinity”. Our society needs men and it needs strong men. Raise your son to be a man. If he later decides to be a woman, then hopefully he will be a strong woman.

Malkor · 2022-10-05T19:00:03+00:00

And finally what advice would you give a feminist raising a son?

The part where feminism worries about men being able to express their feelings...

I'm sure its there somewhere. I'll check 101.

That should totally be emphasized. Being able to talk about and/or express what's going on is important for your son and whomever your son (if he chooses to) creates a life with in the future.

Reasonable-Wealth647 · 2022-10-05T20:43:05+00:00

Studio Brule has a very informative video on the birth of feminism...rotten to the core since Seneca Falls.

International_Risk82 · 2022-10-05T21:01:52+00:00

where did feminism go wrong?

It was always wrong. Feminism as a principle was founded by a woman named Mary Wollstonecraft. She believed in equal rights for women such as jobs and education but she didn't believe that men and women were truly equal ie. in their responsibilities. This basically means that she wanted equality only when it benefited women. Following in her ideas the feminist movement has been a dumpsterfire of misandry, hypocrisy, victim mentality and hatred ever since its creation, not just during its third wave. I have the research to prove it and could link it if you wish.

What IS feminism and how do we ensure we are being precise enough in our word choice to avoid misunderstandings?

Feminism, by both practical and historical definitions is a movement that bases its beliefs that men:

Oppressed women since the beginning of time.
Created the patriarchy as a system that benefits them exclusively while harming women.
Are the enemy.

You can see this on display ever since the white feather campaign during the first wave and even today in the kill all men and teach men not to rape hashtags. If you truly desire equality then the word/movement you're looking for is egalitarianism. Food for thought: The word egalitarianism was invented around the same time the word feminism was. Why do you think that "feminism" was chosen as the title and not "egalitarianism" ?

And finally what advice would you give a feminist raising a son?

Don't be one, seriously, distance yourself from them. Teach your son to control and take pride in his masculinity and masculine instincts instead of trying to dampen/feminize them. Tell him how much he's loved for being who he is not for what he can do. And most importantly, don't raise him to be a white-knight who puts women on a pedestal. Women are just human beings; flawed and should be held responsible to said flaws.

Qantourisc · 2022-10-05T21:54:52+00:00

Regarding feminism: my general advise is this

Fuck feminism, fuck menism; there should only be egalitarians ! *1

Where it feminism went wrong is where they didn't follow their core *2 ideology: equality.

*1 or those who don't feel like people should be equal; but wtf ?!?
*2 At least what I believe the core of feminism should have been.

bbs540 · 2022-10-05T21:56:07+00:00

I wouldn’t give a feminist advice on raising a son, they’re a lost cause. But I’d give advice to somebody who isn’t sexist and believe both genders are equal, but I’d just parrot the points u/duhhhh stated

TheLostSoul571 · 2022-10-05T22:03:22+00:00

My mom's a "feminist" but in the older way, the want for equality.

1) Feminism went wrong, in my opinion, when it started to be more about women's superiority than being equal to their male counterparts.

2) In my eyes modern feminism is just misandry, true feminism is a push for equality. We'll never avoid misunderstandings, it's part of being people and viewing stuff differently from person to person. We just have to be able to listen and understand that people won't see eye to eye on every statement, but rather than fight over it converse about it.

3) Make sure he knows it's okay to be who he is, my mom raised me with it being okay to cry and feel but also to be strong and independent. I think everyone regardless of gender should be raised in this regard, that way you can fend for yourself in life and not have to rely on others.

Training-Rich5057 · 2022-10-05T22:54:17+00:00

Feminism went wrong went it became a political ploy for power and not equality. Feminists want superiority over men. Equality does not mean equality of outcome in life no matter what area of life. Next the man hating and man bashing. Hypocrisy and double standards with domestic violence, sexual assault, child abuse, child murder, marriage laws, family court laws, #killallmen, men are trash all brought on by feminists. There is not real gender equality if there are no places, but maybe one for men to go to get away from abusive women.

Equality is women have the right to vote even though none fought and died in wars to get that right. There is no military draft for women to fight wars. All physical aspects of physically demanding jobs women have the standard lowered, which really can be deadly when attempting to rescue people in need or great danger. Women can also go to school, start a business, and win political office.

Worst of all is because almost all laws fall in the favor of women. Women are not held accountable or responsible for lying. Cheating, stealing, manipulation, emotional abuse towards men and boys. False allegations. Think about how many serial killers had a mother who was a feminist or abusive.

My advice if you want to remain a feminist is have your son wear a camera to record every interaction he has with everyone. Home school him. Or best yet stop feminism because it is ruining society which by the way hates men already. Then you expect men to lay Donna their lives for you and a society that hates them. The is a sense of entitlement. Let men lead and be men. We were made first for a reason. A woman cannot teach a man to be a brave, strong, wise, and an efficient man who has a heart and loves people and animals. Live a life where both men and women are held accountable and responsible for things said, not said, actions taken, and not taken. It takes a man or better yet a father (dad) who teaches honor, courage, commitment, respect, accountability, morals , and ethics. That is just a start. Look into history and see where feminism took control if it really did help society or did it make men act like women and women like men. Did the civilization fall apart. Relationships and marriage will never work if one party who the most protected class of people living on earth believes they are still oppressed. If feminism does not stop more men will walk away from women altogether. What is there to keep a man from ghosting society?

rabel111 · 2022-10-05T22:55:44+00:00

Feminism is by definition about women (gynocentric) and only understands masculinity/men/boys from an external position. Feminist constructs of masculinity are shallow, stereotyped, entirely negative, and reinforce traditional male gender roles while condemning them. The exclusion of men and boys from feminist ideological dialogues makes this position intractable. Modern feminism is about the acknowledgement of the patriarchial supression of women and the dismantling of patriarchy. It is not about equality/equity (although these words are commonly used, the actions they are associated with are anything but equality/equity). Feminism is based on a polar understanding of gendered power, and adversarial reactionary politics, that treats men as other, less human, less evolved.
Feminism, as a brand or ideology, is so fundamentally inbued with gender hatred, it is beyond redemption. After listening to a lecture hall of feminists arguing that actively helping men who are considering suicide is an act of misogyny, I will never endorse, condone or tolerate feminism as anything other than a hate based movement of bigots. Feminism is not the way forward.
Don't mutilate your son's penis before he is old enough to give informed consent. Don't teach your son not to rape women, as this implies he was born a rapist. Don't teach your son to respect women, teach him to respect people, and to expect to be respected himself. Don't teach your son that women/girls are naturally better at english expression/reading writing, as this self fulfilling prophesy is not evidence based and will undermine his will to succeed. Don't treat your son like an emotional cripple; he has feelings and will share these with you if he is comfortable with your responses. Don't tell him you are a feminist. He is not in a bubble and will hear about the "drink men's tears", "#KILLALLMEN", "all men are trash", "all men are rapists" memes (and worse) published in feminist books and forums and applauded by many. As soon as to say "I'm a feminist" a wall will drop forever, either between you and him, or between him and the men in his life. Feminism divides and polarises.

Above all, love him openly and unconditionally (but I don't think you need to be told this).

robk11 · 2022-10-05T23:32:31+00:00

Love your Boy, period.

Lucretius · 2022-10-06T01:28:29+00:00

Honestly, watch the early videos by Karen Staughan (girlwriteswhat) on youtube. Particularly her stuff on Male Disposability Theory.

AManWithBinoculars · 2022-10-06T09:47:23+00:00

1a.) They went terribly wrong first with the name. If it was about equal rights then why is does it start with "fem"

1b.) They continue to go wrong because feminism is now about male bashing. And anyone who voices a different opinion is hated. Even when we just want what Feminism is suppose to be, which is equal rights. As you said, its now male bashing and even threatening violence towards men.

2.) It's become about unapologetic misandry, and its not fun. I'm all for equal rights, but I want a different name for it then "Feminism" and its strange that the only place I can get real conversations about how we can make it equal is in the male rights reddit. The rest of the Feminists reddits ban me because I stand up for men.

3) Stop begin a feminist and start begin about equal rights. Both sexes face struggles, not just females. "Egalitarian" is a better label then Feminist. We must change the language first to gender neutral language, then we can start solving the problems any human begin faces.

Feminism is forever bias, and broken starting with the name and ending with the refusal to see both sides.

Chopersky4codyslab · 2022-10-06T10:59:36+00:00

You should look into Norah Vincent. She was also a feminist. May she Rest In Peace.

Xavierkill22 · 2022-10-06T15:28:27+00:00

Equity is the issue. Your people want the standards lowered instead of trying to overcome the hurdles. Modern feminists are just actors and don't actually follow the bs their crowd preaches. Throw them in a tough situation and they crack and beg men for help instead of trying for themselves.

Scandi_Navy · 2022-10-06T00:05:51+00:00

Equity and equality aren't the same. Equality of opportunity is capitalism. Equality of outcome is communism.

Trooper-Man1776 · 2022-10-05T20:21:19+00:00

OP, watch the RED PILL movie. Then study the writings and discussions of Warren Farrell, Jordan Peterson, Christina Hoff Sommers, and Camille Paglia. If you can do this without getting triggered, so much the better.

I'm sorry to say that you've been brought up on lies. You seem to understand this, which is good. It will not be an easy process as you slowly realize that you have been wrong about a great many things. Even doing all of what I've mentioned previously will only scratch the surface of a bigger truth. Do you have what it takes? Cassie Jaye did, as she made the RED PILL movie. Watch her movie and understand. Good luck and be well.

JSavageOne · 2022-10-05T20:32:21+00:00

Make sure he is confident, assertive, and sociable. A man who does not have those traits will be at a significant disadvantage in life, significantly moreso than a women in the same shoes. If he is interested in science or something then he should pursue that and not care what anybody thinks. If he likes a girl then he should have the confidence to talk to her and lead the interaction, while also having the social awareness to know if that interest isn't reciprocated. He must be thick-skinned and not be affected by things like rejection.

I do think it is primarily the father's responsibility to teach these things via serving as a role model. But if the mother doesn't do all that feminist nonsense like telling their boy child that it's ok to cry about some kid who bullied them and telling them lies that boys and girls are the same and held to the same standard, then that alone would do wonders. Gender roles are rooted in biology, and a weak, feminine man will not get very far in life.

Mellowker · 2022-10-05T22:54:45+00:00

Please do read my comment with the fact that it is only my oppinion and it can be changer if someone convinces me otherwise.

1 )Where did feminism go wrong ? I think feminism went wrong when women got equality of opportunity and without any of the responsibility in most countries. At that point, I think that some more radical people, perhaps guided by some bad personal experiences wanted to see what they can get away with and society did nothing to stop them. And if I may, I do want to remind that the same thing happned basically with the URSS founded by a handfull of extremists like Lennin and Stalin. I do not mean to degrade feminists to the likes of those dictators, but I do find it an interesting line of thought.

2 )The definition: If I am not mistaken, the movement started in Britan in the goal of getting equal rights for women. However nowadays the fight for equality has , I believe, degraded into a derogatory fight for more and more power hidden under the moral premise of "equality". Also, from the etymological point of view, feminism excludes men. 3 )Advice for raising a son as a feminist: I have never had a child so I can not give a real valid oppinion, so I'll instead tell you what I wish my feminist parents would have done. I think this would apply for any child. - ALWAYS listen to him as in being there to listen to his problems with no judgment. - Try to be as equal as possible between your 2 childen, I used to hate how my sister would get praise for benign things and I would be ignored or mocked for pointing it out. -Teach him how to cook and clean.

And that would be it. Thank you for reading. I am open to debate.

ZulutheZebra · 2022-10-05T22:55:02+00:00

The first two I will skip as they are probably more something you will have to answer for yourself. I would say though if you want some eye opening content about modern feminism check out the female dating strategy subreddit or two X chromosomes. The hatred of men is seething and far more intense on there than any so called misogynistic groups of men that have been blackballed for expressing their views.

But yes on to some constructive material: how to raise your son. I would say, above all ensure he knows you love him. Secondly, try to tone down anti male talk around him. As a feminist it will happen, whether it’s a new rape case, a global fem thing like the Iran stuff etc. The point is, talk to your feminist friends about that stuff and blow off steam around them, not around your son or husband.

I can tell you, as a man it drives us up the wall to hear femsplaining and man bashing but just be forced to smile and nod because otherwise you must be some kinda incel. If you can spare your son (and husband) on this it will make your family much happier. Next time you are reading the morning news or get a retweet of some feminist stuff and are about to make a comment, just stop and consider your audience.

EnforcementX · 2022-10-05T23:52:42+00:00

The only thing I’ll say is that the vast majority (entirety?) of things that feminists (really, misandrists) call out as being ‘toxic masculinity’ …is really just masculinity.

If you want to raise your son to be a strong, successful, well adjusted man, you’ve got to allow your husband to raise him that way and do what you can to support that.

Stoicism is important, not lack of emotion, but emotional control. He’s got to learn to stand up for himself and the people he cares about. Confrontation WILL happen in his life because he is (will be) a man. He’s got to command respect from others.

Whatever you do, do NOT promote any type of victim mindset in him. He needs to be capable of problem solving. He needs to understand the true meaning of hard work. If something is hard or scary, too bad. If you’ve committed to something, you NEVER quit or go back on your word.

He needs to understand that, as a man, he needs to create his value. Men are entitled to NOTHING in this life. We earn what we get and we cannot expect handouts from anyone.

A man with a victim mindset is usually what you would consider the classic ‘incel’ … a lazy, slob who is frustrated that, despite doing nothing to attain the type of value that attracts women (healthy lifestyle, successful, honest, hard working, etc), he feels that life/women owe him something just for existing. A man must take ownership of all of his failures as well as successes.

Open doors for people, ALWAYS pay the tab on dates, say yes ma’am and no thank you.

I’m essence, raise your son to be the type of man that you’d want your daughter to date, masculinity and all.

ChadWolf98 · 2022-10-06T01:15:57+00:00

1, Imo when women gained equal legal rights and feminists switched to social rights where women already had an advantage. Like demanding acceptance for promiscous women just because part of society thinks its ok for men to be promiscous. (Imo the 2 cases are very different because biology)

2, what is mainstream at that time. Now I feel its the man hating type is the mainstream and the pro equality even for men is the minority.

Given that I'd call the latter group egalitarians.

3, in short: dont. Its very likely not beneficial to a son to be raised according to current feminism's beliefs. Things like treating others well, or being nice but not allowed to used by it and stuff like that are ok. So does being pro equality. But current feminism has wrong and harmful misconceptions (men come together as a group to opress women, "patriarchy", men being dumber/cant show emotion/more prone to crime etc). It basically setting him up for a life of second class citizen.

The proper solution, imo, (but take this with a grain of salt as I am not a parent ) probably some kind of mix of traditional values and liberal values assuming you arent hardcore con or lib.

Personally I think that biological differences between boys and girls require a different approach, more hands on learning for boys.

Z0mb13z_0f_54nd · 2022-10-06T02:29:11+00:00

1) where did feminism go wrong?

Hmm... it's tough to say but I think if it went wrong anywhere, it was that, in the pursuit of gender "equity" the traditional feminine roles have been banished for women. Women who only want to raise families, be homemakers, or find a man to support them are viewed as "less than" the "strong and independent" types who work in competitive fields, put off starting families, or who earn enough money to be self reliant. Not that there's anything wrong with women who choose to pursue this path, but the consensus appears to be that, UNLESS you do these things (lots of school, high paying competitive careers, put off starting a family), you aren't a strong or valuable women.

Feminism went wrong when it abandoned the feminine because it decided that the masculine way of living is the superior way to live.

What IS feminism and how do we ensure we are being precise enough in our word choice to avoid misunderstandings?

Good question. I've thought about this a lot, too. Generally, it boils down to nuance, I think. When I'm having a conversation with someone, I try to ensure that we're using the same definition for the things we're discussing. I have no problem temporarily modifying my definition in the pursuit of understanding. If you're having a conversation with someone about feminism, then 1) ask them to define it for you and 2) repeat their definition back to them in your own words and make sure they AGREE that you understand how they view feminism. From here you can usually have a productive conversation

And finally what advice would you give a feminist raising a son

Personally, I'd say lean in to the traditional roles a little bit. Strength and independence attract women to men, so foster those things. Men need to be productive to develop self esteem because we aren't inherently valuable in the way women are. I recognized at a certain point that the traditional gender roles actually benefitted my self esteem and psychology GREATLY and as a result my quality of life improved significantly.

Hope this helps gives you some insight. I tried to keep it concise for the sake of a reddit post, so if you want to dig deeper into any of this, feel free to ask follow up questions!

Diomil · 2022-10-06T02:55:19+00:00

1) Feminism went wrong when instead of fighting for equal opportunities they started demanding equal outcomes. Society has a duty to level the playing field for men and women but that's where the duty ends.

2) This is the hardest question out of the 3 questions you asked. I don't know if I have to define it how I think it is or how it should be so I'll do both, I think feminism right now is movement that looks to empower women while belittling or vilifying men. And I think feminism should be a movement to get equal rights to both women and men.

3) The best advice I could give you is to never make your son feel guilty or less valued or less of a person simply because he's a boy. Encourage him always, he needs it, we all do.

TracyMorganFreeman · 2022-10-06T04:16:02+00:00

Feminism has gone wrong in that it has been co opted by malicious and opportunistic forces. These forces hide behind the flag of "just for equality" whenever such criticisms are lobbied.

The best advice I can give anyone raising children of any gender is keep them out of public school.

TheBananaKing · 2022-10-06T06:13:20+00:00

1: Where it went wrong is where every movement goes wrong: tribalism.

Any kind of in-group vs out-group boundary will eventually get exploited for clicks / attention / grants / mindshare. It's a basic failure mode of the human (and primate, hell probably even mammalian) psyche.

If you draw a distinction based on demographics, it doesn't matter how carefully you phrase it and what you originally mean - a version that subverts the original intent and hooks into them-bad-us-good will inevitably out-compete it. You may as well try to hold back the tide.

2: Feminism has come to mean 'whatever I happen to believe wrt gender politics, because it is the virtuous camp to be in and I identify as a good person, therefore I am a feminist and feminists believe as I do'. Again, it's become another tribe-marker, not an ideological position. Keeper of tribal purity - the specifics are just whatever strain of gender-politics are most competitive in the local environment.

3: Imagine a world where you're deemed toxic / predatory / entitled / rapey / tyrannical just by being born; where empathy for you and others like you is considered a betrayal, where are you are a social problem that requires a remedy by default, and where people can gain vast social credit by suggesting ways to solve the problem that you embody. And where of course you don't have the right to be protected from genital mutilation at birth, just for funsies.

Imagine a world where every problem you face and the horrible, destructive prescriptive social norms forced on you from outside are blamed on that entitlement because your masculinity is so toxic, the patriarchy hurts men too, stop hitting yourself lol.

Imagine a world where saying actually no hang on a minute, we're just folk same as you... is widely shut down as hate speech.

And imagine a world where you're forced to choose between acceptance in progressive spaces and advocating for the position that your gender identity shouldn't determine your worth as a human being, where the only way to gain that acceptance is by pouring out self-hatred on yourself and others like you, and sharing a laugh about how you're all garbage deep down, no but really.

The gender norms forced upon men are every bit as restrictive and destructive and oppressive as those forced upon women. Being forced to LARP as some kind of Ron Swanson / Punisher hybrid all your life is not healthy or sustainable, and the penalties for stepping out of the role are just as severe.

(as I've often said, Inside Out is only true for girls - if it had been a boy sitting in that tree crying because his team lost, he wouldn't get an outpouring of support, he'd get pulled to the ground, physically and verbally abused, and ostracised and shamed for it... and that's just by the mother.)

And yes, it's true, people in abusive situations often end up behaving badly, just the same as if you mistreat a dog all its life, you don't get a cuddly well-adjusted companion. But to turn around and blame the victim for the mistreatment they receive is cruel beyond imagining.

Now, we have a society built on countless generations of that abuse, and the behavioural issues stemming from it are indeed incredibly fucked.

But to then turn around and denigrate the people protesting it and trying to unpick it from the edges as though they're defending the whole thing... that's just downright evil.

That's... that's where we are.

What advice would you give the parent of someone born into that?

Downonmykneez · 2022-10-06T07:10:23+00:00

I think feminism was at first about giving women basic and obvious rights that they always should’ve had, and giving women the confidence and power to have a voice as well. Voting, working a job, being a strong woman for the family, bringing attention to rape and domestic abuse etc was what I saw first wave feminism as (there’s other things I’m missing but the intention of the movement was good). The problem is, feminism doesn’t even promote most of those values now. It’s about women being half naked walking around fucking tons of men, and calling men trash and ignoring facts, and that’s completely counter intuitive to the family unit and degeneracy is accepted as “women being strong”, when that’s bullshit. My mom is an old school feminist. She absolutely despises what they have become. Imagine what these women will bring to this world. Destructive members of society on drugs, alcohol, and engaging in degenerative behavior. There’s gonna be some people who disagree with me, but the societal problems we see today really have happened with the degenerate nature that women have taken, and that’s only really happened in the last 25-30 years
This is something you might be able to define better then me. Personally I believe feminism has lost its true meaning because of what I stated above. Old school feminism is different then the nonsense we see today.
Well, just raise your son to be an honorable man with good morals, but an open and intelligent mind. At the end of the day it’s just about being a good human being. You might know the answer to this one deep down inside. Always question everything and anything society and the matrix wants you to believe.

odysseytree · 2022-10-06T09:02:59+00:00

Gender equity is facade term for picking only good side of the coin instead of keeping both sides.

CruTV · 2022-10-06T09:39:56+00:00

Entitled brats that call themselves feminists but in reality are just anti men humans
Feminism should be all about fighting for gender equality and women’s rights, but most modern day feminists take it way to far.
Love him.

Anyways this is coming from a 16 year old if that changes whether you care about what I’ve said above. But I recommend loving your son because that definitely important

br33z3 · 2022-10-06T10:56:34+00:00

Thank you for seeking to understand and wanting to best support your husband and son. You're a good person.

Greeddeath · 2022-10-06T11:36:02+00:00

Feminist tries to eat all the cake they want, but without getting fat, what i mean is they want all that sugar, but at the same Time they dont want responsibility correlated with this sugar.
Feminism is what PPL make it. Now, they make it bad thing, while some Time ago it was ok. I think the main problem here is like with communism. They builded it on class enemies, but when you build something on war, it requires constant delivery of new enemies.
Most of all, give him support, and dont automaticly assume he did something, only because someone says so. Listen to him, you may give him some tough love, but as long as it is fair in its rules, he Will appreciate it in Time.

someinternetdude19 · 2022-10-06T15:16:51+00:00

I think part of the reason that people take issue with the idea of male struggles is that their looking at the top men in the world like maybe the top 10% of men in the world whether that be in looks, money, fame, status or power. And there’s some truth there, when you look at the highest level of business, finance, media, sports, politics, etc it’s very male dominated and there are definitely improvements to be made in terms of gender equity in those areas. But when you look at average guys in most areas things are on par with girls due to gains from the feminist which is great. Just speaking from personal experience my pay has always been pretty much equal to my female counterparts despite being in the mostly male field of engineering. I know would gladly hire some girls, we just don’t get any applicants. Sure guys do have some issues in areas such as the justice system, divorce, paternity, etc and women also face issues in things such as general concerns for and not being taken as seriously when it comes to technical discussions for example. And both genders have their advantages too. I don’t think you can say one is more privileged than the other. But when people complain about male privelage they’re talking about the top tier guys while the rest of us are pretty much invisible to the world. Historically we’re the ones that have fought wars and done the dangerous and gross jobs in society. It does sometimes feel like society doesn’t really care about our well being. For example, it seems like the body positivity movement has been largely targeted at women when men also face similar issues. I guess I’m complaining a little but I also accept the reality of the situation and that it won’t change. And it’s obvious why this is but that’s a whole other can of worms.

RoubandoMerdina · 2022-10-06T15:49:46+00:00

where did feminism go wrong? Feminism - as I understand it - shouldn’t be about man bashing. Quite the opposite! It ought to be concerned with gender equity for everyone, but instead it’s lead to combativeness.

It never was about equality. It was about equality of rights, not responsibilities. It's easy to demand more rights when you are the ones who get priority in evacuation/safety when shit hits the fan. Traditionally, men had more freedom but also had accountability. They'd be going to war and fight to death to protect their women and children when things went wrong. Nowadays, men still do that (i.e. Ukraine, etc), but we don't have anything to gain.

What has feminism achieved?

masculinemission97 · 2022-10-06T16:19:25+00:00

Feminism is now a cult. I mean that literally and not figuratively. If someone, especially a woman, disagrees with a feminist a common response is for that feminist to believe that the only reason anyone can disagree with her is because of “internalized misogyny”.

When an individual is willing to insulate themselves by repeatedly straw manning the other person the only logical conclusion that can be reached is the individual is in a cult.

The feminist’s viewpoint is that the other person cannot have any rational argument against feminism or any ideas that are better than feminist ideas so in order to protect her fragile worldview she must straw man and mischaracterize the other person’s argument and the other person as essentially an individual that is unaware of their own imperceptible bigotry.

Practical-Bee-5733 · 2022-10-06T17:17:45+00:00

Feminism went wrong at the same point most high-minded movements went wrong... When someone realized they could use it to make a profit.

Modern feminism is something giant corporations sell to you. It's something you are told to buy and consume, because the "leaders" are actually content creators trying to keep a fan base buying more movies/tv/podcasts etc... all aimed at the feminist market.

If you want your customers to keep buying your product, you can't say "feminism has been pretty much the most successful movement in human history, we basically won already and now we can listen to men about their concerns too "

-That line doesn't sell content or get retweets. From a business perspective, you will sell the most by saying "we are under attack! The men are out to get us! Most men are infected with toxic masculinity and it's up to us to cure them!"

mikesteane · 2022-10-06T00:06:48+00:00

where did feminism go wrong?

It has never gone wrong, it was evil from the start. Men have a built in instinct to protect and provide for women. Feminism has always been the leveraging of that instinct for political ends. Contrary to popular historical revisionism, women have never been an oppressed group, they have, in fact always been privileged. Taking isolated facts about gender roles may make it seem otherwise, but men have always carried the heavier burden.

feminism can be defined so many different ways

In all its forms, it relies on the belief that men have systematically oppressed women and that reparations are due. The lie that men have behaved badly towards women throughout history inevitably results in the widespread defamation of men that is evident everywhere. Feminism has never been about equality, hence the name, but has always been about getting more rights and privileges for women on the assumption that this is needed to achieve equality.

And finally what advice would you give a feminist raising a son?

Drop feminism, it is a hate movement that does no one any good, including women who are now less happy than they were five decades ago. If you treat people around you well and be the best person you can be, it will come back to you in spades. Drop the politics and concentrate on being the best mother, wife and human being you can be. The modern world offers a great deal to anyone who knows how to live right and well.

RandyRenegade · 2022-10-05T22:56:06+00:00

1) where did feminism go wrong?

In my opinion its not just attacking men or dismissing the issues they have (which are both way too common) but simply not listening to them. Even when feminists think they have properly acknowledged men's struggles, its usually framed as "toxic masculinity" and "patriarchy," which are necessarily concepts born from feminist ideology and perspectives. If one really wanted to address the problems a certain group faces, shouldn't they let those of that group speak about their experiences and fully hear them out without twisting them into ideas that fit your perspectives. Things like this post are encouraging though.

aerial_coitus · 2022-10-05T21:11:46+00:00

GTFO with the virtue signaling. Feminist? You do not want to understand anything. I have seen this story a million times. Go fly a kite.

Pecuthegreat · 2022-10-06T14:43:21+00:00

Also go ask in MensLib and ProMaleCollective after this.

HaelenHaagen · 2022-10-06T20:19:21+00:00

I appreciate your willingness to come from a humble place with your heart open to learn.

Quix_Nix · 2022-10-06T00:18:49+00:00

I am a trans girl, so this might be a bit different. I'm going to answer your questions and also way things that would have helped me, unfortunately a lot of this was out of my parents control.

1) I believe feminism started wrong, this is because of history a lot of people don't know. The suffragists and suffragettes were different groups. The suffragists had only won universal male suffrage a few decades prior to women's suffrage. (Also this didn't include blacks in practice in the USA) the suffragists are pretty epic and the suffragists were literal terrorists that harrassed people to death. Additionally a lot of feminists now downplay things that I would kill to be able to do like have periods or give birth.

2) based on philosophy of the first feminists they seem to believe that all of the history of gender is surmised as men oppressing women. That is just wrong, and it denies crucial sociological concepts in gender dynamics. Women and men always lived together you can't have the same dynamics that racism creates because the gender dynamics developed to give both sides massive pros and cons. Now most of the cons for women have been turned into pros and most of the pros for men have been turned into cons. I do believe this to be true but there is a decent chance I over exaggerated it in my head because of the dysphoria and euphoria.

3) feminism and it's institutions make men and Trans women feel excluded. Try to not let you kids feel excluded. I had a lot of run ins with girls who code or girl scouts or just toxic girls in school that don't allow men and don't allow transwomen. They don't know how good they have it and they don't care to find out because they believe other people need to find out how bad they have it.

That bristling response is actually really common and documented. Its a sign you are changing your beliefs at an epistemological level. Have fun! Let me know if you have more questions.

KD_Ram · 2022-10-05T22:08:35+00:00

When your friends are like this, who needs enemies?

Pebian_Jay · 2022-10-05T23:26:29+00:00

I think what sucks is that to your point, feminism “can be defined so many different ways”. My mom is a die hard feminist and my brothers, dad and I are super onboard with that! However, my mom disagrees with a lot of the “feminists” she knows on a lot of different things. Pretty touchy subject these days but as long as you explain that no matter your gender, sexual orientation, skin color OR WHATEVER, people ARE PEOPLE and everyone should be treated equally, he’ll be fine!

OpticalReality · 2022-10-06T11:05:02+00:00

I don’t think feminism has gone wrong per se, my view is that traditionally oppressed or suppressed groups including women and minorities have gained much ground in terms of equality with groups that used to enjoy a privileged place in our culture / society (i.e. white men). I welcome and celebrate those gains, but believe that they have come largely at the expense of those traditionally privileged groups (it seems like a zero sum game). Rather than boosting all people to the same level of parity, traditionally privileged groups are now being held back from achieving the same sort of esteem in our culture today.

As the traditionally oppressed / suppressed groups have gained ground, there has been a general lashing out against formerly privileged groups. This has been seen as acceptable, even morally good because of the historical suffering that the less privileged demographics have experienced. That history is now being used as a club to bludgeon folks from the previously privileged groups when they may have had nothing to do with that oppression. For example, a white male baby born today has never supported a Jim Crow law, stuck his wife and gotten away with it, or committed a sexual assault.

What justice is there in ensuring that this young man suffers for the sins of his fathers? How is it that two wrongs make a right? How is it that we can repair society’s ills by using those same weapons to engender a new wave of racism, sexism and oppression against a historically privileged group?

LiquidDreamtime · 2022-10-06T17:02:15+00:00

Great post. I’m a man, a father, a husband, an advocate for men’s rights, and I’m also a feminist.

As you said, feminism is loosely defined. It means different things to different people. So I don’t think such a vague movement and overall sentiment can “go wrong”.

Feminism has struggled to unify under some sort of code or mission, because it has no organization or leadership. Many men or women may claim to be leaders of feminism, but they hold no authority or recognition. And many people who write and speak on the topic are not really into “feminism” as a label or identity. To me, to be feminist is the same as being anti-racist, it’s just a mindset that I recognize others have experiences outside of my own, and their perspective is valid. I also have the responsibility of educating myself on that perspective, working on my own actions to diminish the hurt I cause, and calling out those impasses as I encounter them.

My advice for raising a son, is to foster a love of self in him. By instilling an intrinsic value in his existence, and reassuring him that his worth is NOT tied to his measurable traits. Recognize that many of the things women struggle with, is conversely true for men.

Women struggle to earn their place in many work forces, or to balance a career with a family, or to fight to provide in a way where they are valued.

Men are seen as less if they don’t 100% provide. Men are often asked to leave their family for work, to have their wife take care of domestic things so they can focus on a career. The expectation is to pay for everything, initiate everything, and be in control always; I don’t believe those pressures exist for women. Men are often starved of attention or affection. We often go days or weeks without a compliment or an inquiry into our well being.

The same attention that women are sick of, are bored with, or even creeped out by; is the attention men are longing for. So when women bear the burden of “too much”, conversely men bear the burden of “not enough”; for pretty much everything.

The world is cruel and unfair. We all have our own unique struggles, but some have to do with our gender identity; no matter what it is.

All_the_pumpkies · 2022-10-05T22:29:19+00:00

I think feminism could be more supportive of men especcially male rape victims. I don’t think feminism is necessarily “going wrong” as much as some feminists just seem to only get the womens rights part. But as a concept and for the most part feminism does well in my opinion
Too me feminism is a broad movement. I noticed terfs and radfems tend to just be misandrists that use feminism as their base while Marxist feminists tend to be better about it
Treat him like you’d treat a daughter. Just also keep in mind there are some core differences like shaving and hygiene you might have to learn about.

Just_Luck_5495 · 2022-10-05T20:07:56+00:00

Feminism isn't really such a bad thing. Some guys just want enforced monogamy. Someone needs to teach them that life is more than just getting laid.

Wswanson001 · 2022-10-06T01:57:24+00:00

I just had a conversation with a friend (devout feminist) yesterday. It came up because her partner started experiencing some issues at work. He busted his ass at the job for 13 years and she finally got to witness someone telling him he got paid what he did because he had a penis. Not his work ethic, or the hours he’s put in or the improvements to efficiency he brought the job. He was only worth it because he had a dick. She posed the question to me what I had to deal with. My answer was a little sideways. Her favorite game is “Horizon: Zero Dawn” which, on its own is a great game honestly. Great concept with the hunting, the challenge, and overall the general story. But the world building is where it got me. I told her to play the game again, start to finish, and when she was done to name one male character that wasn’t an asshole, Insane, crippled, or a coward. Same goes for Ghostbusters: 2016. Even the delivery guy was an ass. Except Winston, same question arises. I told her, with current pop culture centered around the male idiot and the female genius, how is any guy going to be viewed anything but?

LouisdeRouvroy · 2022-10-06T02:39:33+00:00

Feminism from the start was wrong since it posited that there's a patriarchy that has by definition advantages and disadvantages respectively due to being male and being female.

Then in front of some obvious disadvantages for males, they double downed and still claimed that it was patriarchy.

If your premise is that by definition advantages are for one sex and disadvantages are for the other, hence there's a privileged sex, then you can never be aware of advantages and disadvantages of each sex and question them.

Hence why for example genital mutilation is scandalous for baby girls but accepted for baby boys.

As long as you're a feminist, your perspective will by definition make you blind to female advantages and male disadvantages and see only female disadvantages and male advantages and thus you'll be unable to actually be for any form of equality or even fix issues for half of the population.

Usually women start realizing that when they have sons, I wonder why.

ElisaSKy · 2022-10-06T02:44:46+00:00

Feminism went wrong the minute it started painting men as having an in-group preference as men, when all available evidence points to men having an out-group preference towards women, which was made from the very start of feminism if not earlier.

Everything else that derives from that trivially easy to prove wrong assumption is thus based on flawed foundations and starts looking more like a house of cards than anything else.

skcuf2 · 2022-10-06T03:42:58+00:00

Equity is just a mistake because it inherently creates inequality. I lost scholarships because I wasn't the right skin color or sex. Pretty frustrating at the time and that frustration has only gotten worse over the years as I've been in corporate jobs.

Nobody cares about men, that's why your husband worries for him. Honestly, the fact that you're a feminist makes me feel sad for your husband because he probably has a lot of shit he can't even talk to you about because he will feel judged. I'm sure you can think of a few arguments you've had where you just dismissed his argument as 'mansplaining' or some other bullshit. That's the same type of 'men are talking' energy that women complained so long about.

Feminism went wrong in the same place that unions did. They had a purpose originally, but now a lot of the purpose is about getting more than they need and it causes more issues than it solves. Sure, there's the occasional issue that requires one or the other, but keeping it around as a constant is a mistake.

If you live in a first world country then you're already sitting on equal footing in a lot of issues. The resolution to the issues that aren't quite equal isn't equity, ever. For every woman who has been catcalled there is a man who has had to risk his life in combat or logging or construction. For every woman who has been sexually assaulted there is a man who has been kicked in the nuts. For every woman who has spent an evening complaining to all of her friends about her sexual frustrations or her significant other there has been a man who has sat in silence thinking about what he could've done wrong and wishing there was someone he could talk to.

Women think they have life hard, but they don't. Probably not as hard, but definitely not any harder, than men.

shazamishod · 2022-10-06T03:53:53+00:00

Feminism has removed the polarity men had with women. now women want the man to see them as equal. men see that as another man. as much as I like my boys, i dont want to be in a relationship with them. so the fact that women want their man to see them as a man is asinine

iainmf · 2022-10-06T04:24:08+00:00

feminism can be defined so many different ways. Sometimes it’s about gender equity and sometimes it’s unapologetic misandry. What IS feminism and how do we ensure we are being precise enough in our word choice to avoid misunderstandings?

I would suggest not using the word 'feminism' at all. If you support women's rights then you can say you are a women's rights advocate.

And finally what advice would you give a feminist raising a son?

Don't listen to anything feminists say about men and masculinity. Feminist theory about men and masculinity is based on looking at women's experiences of oppression and extrapolating to figure out what men must be like, rather than actually listening to men.

ThrowFootAway5376 · 2022-10-06T04:56:43+00:00

If it was about equality for everyone they'd call it "humanism".

How's "masculism" strike you? Cringe much?

Your husband is right. I despise being male. I'd rather be a cockroach, bluntly. But no, to answer your next question, this is not a dysphoria thing. No one likes being asswipe, socially.

I'm not having kids but if I were to discover an up and coming one of mine was going to be male and it was 100% my decision, I would immediately think two things. First, how do I get out of this country, and second, if that's not possible, the thought of aborting it as a mercy killing is being taken under serious consideration, no joke.

Throning · 2022-10-06T05:05:38+00:00

1) where did feminism go wrong? Feminism - as I understand it - shouldn’t be about man bashing. Quite the opposite! It ought to be concerned with gender equity for everyone, but instead it’s lead to combativeness.

Feminism went 'wrong' when it started listening to it's most vocal, most radical members, encouraging dominance-equality (if that's a term) more than egalitarian-equality or "true" equality.

What I mean by dominance equality is that any benefit women get from feminism needs to come at the expense of men; either in funding, or availability of the benefit. We can see this in education and with how many scholarships & grants are available to women just on the basis of being female. We can see this when Hilary Clinton said "Women are the primary victims of war." We can see this through social media accounts condemning men for, well, being men. There's the overwhelming sense that women, through feminism, enjoy much more "equality" and benefits & privileges of it - enough that it is not truly an "equality" movement.

Remember all those "The future is female" mugs and tshirts and so on? Look at this through the lens of your son - your son will be exposed to them at times in his life, and the message he'll get isn't "my sister deserves every opportunity"; the message he'll see is "Men, myself included, are not part of their future."

It's not too far off to say Feminism has become a supremacist movement.

2) feminism can be defined so many different ways. Sometimes it’s about gender equity and sometimes it’s unapologetic misandry. What IS feminism

When it's about gender equity, and when that makes sense to correct for a blatant imbalance, very few rational people would argue against it. A case in point might be the current events in Iran; but that's somewhat of a tangent to what you're probably asking. It's still relevant as feminism in Iran would likely do a good amount of progress. It isn't particularly useful in the US, as they've already achieved a high amount of equity, and what inequity they are fighting to change is so low on anyone's "real priority" list that few people care (the whole abortion thing aside anyway; any other major issue regarding feminism has basically already been taken care of, and now feminism is complaining that men do/don't catcall them, or that they do/don't miss that they do/don't catcall them... HuffPost has some ironic headlines).

I do applaud you for acknowledging misandry - too many feminists will simply claim it isn't real.

I wouldn't dictate what feminism is, to you; as above, my perception of feminism is that it may have started out as a "we wanna vote and work" movement, but has since become pretty much supremacist.

how do we ensure we are being precise enough in our word choice to avoid misunderstandings?

Karen Straughan has a quote about this, I think it's somewhere in The Red Pill documentary, or otherwise in one of her youtube videos, that "toxic masculinity" as a phrase did a lot to demonize men by simply calling masculinity toxic. Of course that's not what it "really means", but not everyone the phrase is used against knows about it's definition, and simply takes it to mean "man = bad". There is no equal phrase for femininity; toxic femininity is not within the feminist lexicon, I would assume because of it's implication of "woman = bad" the same way.

Or remember that time 3 people made hoax-papers based on Mein Kampf (mostly written to be anti-white, anti-male), sent 20 versions to various feminist & woke outlets, only to be rather dumbfounded with some of them approved them for publication, and others actually did publish them?

If that doesn't scream "There's something awkwardly close to fascism with these movements", I don't know what will. And while this isn't of course "all feminists are fascist against men", as far as feminism's leadership and organizations go, they're exceptionally close to fascism to the point that they cannot be trusted.

3) And finally what advice would you give a feminist raising a son?

Drop the feminism, adopt egalitarianism.

I would suggest Cassie Jaye's "The Red Pill" documentary (it's a 2 hour watch, free on youtube currently), which may further expand and explain some of the "I'm a feminist but..." notions you may have had. As a preface, Cassie starts off the documentary admitting she is a feminist, but by the end of the documentary, interviewing various Men's Right's advocates and really understanding the problems men face, Cassie doesn't agree with feminism (or at least doesn't identify as a feminist) at the end.

There's Karen Straughan, who has some more critical things to say of feminism (another user replied with an excellent quote from her).

There's countless men who are critics of feminism; arguably including Jordan Peterson who is probably one of the most well known in recent years, even if he does hold fairly traditional/conservative/even religious claims and beliefs, he still hits the nail pretty squarely on the head for issues facing men - how feminism as a liberation movement did a lot, but how society & culture still holds men to within the same old traditional roles for which there has yet to be any real liberation movement that gains traction.

There's a lot of resources to dig into to find out just how blatantly sexist, to the point of fascism & supremacy, that feminism had glimmers of at it's start, and pretty much become over the decades.

NZGuy2019 · 2022-10-06T05:06:52+00:00

i guess id say men are oppressed, and there are lots of double standards. Saying things like “kill all men” or laughing at male suicide etc is a good place to start. Being open to a discussion , not assuming everything is about power etc… good on you for coming and having the discussion and welcome😀

Spare_Development615 · 2022-10-06T05:42:06+00:00

Where do I even begin.

Let's start with the name "feminism." Why isn't it called womanism or egalitarianism, what does the name "fem" imply, femininity? females?

I've long suspected that feminism is simply a US govt program to enforce female participation in the workforce and make them taxable and all of my observations bear this out.

Otherwise it makes no sense for women to be chained up for all of eternity and then suddenly decide they want "equality" which is a specious concept in and of itself.

How does putting your child in daycare and going to work at a corporation make a person more "equal?" It makes them a better producer, a better taxpayer, at the cost of their private life and their family.

Notice how in the last 60 years the qualify of life has gone to shit.

People used to be able to afford a house on 1 income working at the grocery store, and then it became 2 incomes, and now you practically need 2 doctors to own a house, the quality of life has gotten shittier and shittier as people have to work like dogs to keep their heads above water.

We didn't even used to have an income tax in America, the dollar used to be backed by gold.

And now the govt prints money out of thin air, it can afford to send unlimited weapons to ukraine, and the california freeways are all homeless encampments.

Oh but the women are "liberated" now, hallelujah.

And we have identity politics where every race, sex, gender, orientation, blah blah blah has their own "identity" that's at the throat of some other identity, and you have new identities like incel and terf, we're all being atomized, we're no longer all part of the same society.

It's men vs women, black vs white, gay vs straight, trans vs whatever, white feminists vs gender essentialists vs gender critical feminists vs libfems vs radfems and blah blah blah.

Where is this stupidity going?

You tell me.

At what point did you decide as a woman that *I* am the one holding you down or keeping you from something.

I was born into this retarded country the same way you were, came into it naked and screaming, ate boogers as a kid, went to school and somewhere along the way was informed that men and women are "class enemies" and we have to 'fight" for our "rights."

Like it's this invisible cake nobody can see and everyone has to fight for their piece of it by standing out in the street holding picket signs.

So far it seems like a scam because I haven't found any cake yet, if you found your piece then I'm happy for you, otherwise don't blame me because I didn't eat it.

It feels like we're all being played, people who in the past life used to be kings and queens and counts and dutchesses, now they're ceo's and senators and hedge fund managers all playing some kind of sick PsyOps to watch the peasants beat the shit out of each other.

"Cmon peasants, fight! You have to fight for your rights! Are you gonna let that MAN make more money than you?"

This whole country is fucking stupid and feels like a playthru of Bioshock where they build an underwater city for all the anarcho-capitalists and then start overdosing on DNA-altering chemicals and everybody gets turned into axe-murdering psychos.

That's my 2 cents.

CarHungry · 2022-10-06T06:02:15+00:00

Assuming you're american. Your son will most likely grow up in a world where the laws and expectations are skewed. Not every man is necessarily unhappy with things, in the same way not every chattel slave was unhappy with slavery (some former slaves even went on to own there own slaves) it doesn't mean the system works for most and isn't inherently inhumane. I wouldn't force anything onto him if he's doing fine without it. Feminism to me just seems more about female nationalism, it prioritizes them, nothing inherently wrong with that, it's natural to advocate for yourself. It's more about the things feminists omit, like disparities in homelessness, suicide, police brutality/sentencing the legal and systemic discrimination.

I bet even alot of people here probably don't think much about things like segregated bathrooms, but it's one example of how men being mistrusted as inherent predators was codified into architecture, like how colored bathrooms were during jim crow. It might seems trivial looking at it by itself, but marginalization adds up, and this stuff never really gets talked about in the mainstream all that much, atleast not in a light positive of men.

SecondEldenLord · 2022-10-06T07:34:18+00:00

1 Feminism isn't needed anymore in modern western culture, but it pretends like it still is needed, so when they don't have problems anymore, they invent new ones. It now about trashing men. and ridiculing them and ignoring their problems.

2 MOdern day feminism is straight up misandry and they are hiding behind the guise of equal rights when in reality it ain't. When do you ever hear feminists talking about men's problem, men's suicides, men domestic violence?

3 Do not be a feminist, instead be an egalitarian. We are all humans seeking happiness, love and respect. Open your eyes and see what the real issue is. It is not the patriarchy, it is not men, but feminists who got too much power now and are ruining men's lives as we speak.

WorshippingLasagna · 2022-10-06T08:17:34+00:00

My view is that there should be nothing wrong with feminism, to the extent there is consensus on the principle that feminism is a movement representing just the exclusive interests of women, regardless of anybody else.

Basically the same way as trade unions represent just the exclusive interests of workers, regardless of anybody else.

The problem is that, whilst trade unions are not allowed to dictate the principles of labour laws without consulting and listening also the employers’ associations, feminism has been virtually the only side to have been listened by policymakers in dictating legislation around gender etc.

Thanks to men’s rights movements becoming more and more mainstream, this imbalance is going to be corrected in the long term.

The problem is that we live here and now and, realistically, your male child is going to be fed a lot of stupid propaganda growing up.

I have a male child as well, a fantastic 9yo who is in 4th grade primary school and, maybe because we live in Italy, maybe because I super carefully selected the school, maybe both, he is not yet being fed with the above madness. He happily identifies himself as a male, he overtly says he is attracted by females, he wants to have 2 children, become a lawyer like daddy and, like daddy, he’s not going to get married because, his words, that’s not necessary to have children. Also, he believes and says that everybody is equal regardless of any difference including gender and nobody at school says anything about the above.

There has been just one case in which one of the teachers tried to introduce some feminist concepts, I asked for a meeting with the teachers and explained that most of the things above are written in art. 3 of the Italian Constitution, I explained why art. 3 is there, why it cannot even be modified and that was all and that teacher stopped.

Also, I have faith in younger generations. They are smarter than us and they see everyday on social media both sides of the question. Most gen z males here proclaim themselves as feminists, but then firmly stand with the idea that no sharing the bill no date and they refuse to work in woke organisations. Gen z females, on the other hand, tend also to recognise that feminism has gone too far and that we should find a way to cooperate, rather than look for privilege. At least, this is what I hear and see in my law firm and at the university where I teach law. M

Anyway, my 2 cents here, without polemic and just as a contribution and a point of view in favour of the discussion.

ABeeBox · 2022-10-06T08:22:16+00:00

If I was my current age 20 or more years ago, with the same morals and ethics as I do today, I would've been a feminist. I used to be a feminist in my teens, because seriously, who doesn't want to be treated as good as everyone else? However, I've changed my mind a lot over the years, feminism has become so radicalized. Very cherry picky. Want equality, but none of those dirty hard manual labour, so now there's quotas in academics but not plumbing. "A woman is a strong as a man", but they reverse that argument when it comes to a 50-50 equal military draft. It's wrong to generalize women, but for whatever reason, it's okay to generalize men. It's wrong to hit women, but hitting a man is different.

Then there's a lot of feminist organizations that are actively advocating, in Australia, they wanted to implement a 9pm curfew for men. In the UK, Rape is only defined as forced penile penetration , foreign objects don't count, and therefore, women can never be convicted of rape. It was I believe Sweden that implemented a 60% female quota for colleges. They soon realized that the quota was preventing more women from entering, so they got rid of the quota, this is a reverse of the original issue, surely there'd be a men's quota right? 50-50? Women are less likely to be charged and and serve less time for the exact same crime as a man. Someone the other day posted a link to an article on this sub that showed that childless women earn 117% more than childless men, that article was written in 2005!

Why does Alimony still exist if women are working now anyway? Women are the default winners of child custody cases, it is the father that must go up and beyond to show the court that the mother is unfit and the father is the better option as a parent. Google "my wife shouts at me" and "my husband shouts at me", one shows up with a Quora page with answers on how to be a better husband, the others shows up with a help hotline, despite both genders being almost equal perpetrators in domestic abuse.

I can keep going about the London staring metro ban, the bias of domestic abuse laws, the bias against fathers, the bias is sexual assault laws, "believe all women" - Amber Heard and the people she represents, body shaming of men (while the reverse being taboo), etc. I have so much more.

I believe many countries lack fair rights for women, but a majority of the west doesn't have that problem, if anything, it has the reverse problem. I support feminism for what it's meant to be, but I don't support modern feminism for what it actually is.

bakedpotato486 · 2022-10-06T08:25:05+00:00

Equity.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Huffers1010 · 2022-10-06T08:29:38+00:00

Hello, and good for you for being willing to post here and ask these questions.

For context, I have long tried to be a voice of reason here and strike something of a balance; I refer to myself as neither a feminist nor a men's rights activist because bad things have been done under both those banners. If you want a label, I'm an egalitarian (and I really don't see why that doesn't cover most bases with regard to ensuring people are treated fairly, but that's another matter).

With that in mind there are a few things worth saying which may give some context to your husband's concerns.

A lot of this is about double standards, which are just a special case of hypocrisy. Reddit itself, for instance, takes a reasonably firm stance against actual misogyny - fine, obviously - but people complaining about anti-man prejudice will find themselves knocked back by administrators making excuses about how it only counts when the target group is a traditionally disadvantaged one. This means that increasingly, even the hardest-line, nastiest, man-hating feminists, who you seem to appreciate do exist, can do and say absolutely anything, even the nastiest and most extreme stuff, without any form of control or restriction. That normalises it. For one fairly mainstream example, see this newspaper article in which people try to explain why it's a good idea to make prejudice against women an aggravating factor in criminal law, but not prejudice against men.

The question is why. Why restrict it? One doesn't preclude the other. There is no reason to do this other than to push an ideology, and it's an ideology that is increasingly mainstream in society, and which does not like me, your husband, or your son.

The other thing that's worth bringing up is your use of the word "equity," which has become something of a dog whistle for equality of outcome as opposed to equality of opportunity. If you're not talking about equality of outcome, fine, but it's still worth going through this as it is a commonly-held view. The problem with equality of outcome (that is, half and half guys and girls in all jobs, for instance) is that it only makes sense if you assume men and women are, on average, precisely identical from a psychological point of view and it's pretty easy to show that isn't the case. Equal, of course. Identical, no.

Now, hear me out: absolutely anyone has the absolute right to try for any position they want to hold or any job they want to do. I will die with right alongside you on that hill, no question. I'm married to a woman who does a very, very stereotypically masculine job, so I'm completely familiar with people being unusual. Fine. But she is unusual, and she's probably always going to be in a minority in that role, even in a completely flat society. We could go into why this is - the best scientific guess is that it's a complicated mixture of biology and sociology, and you can really only change sociology - but it's certainly real. Yes, we could talk about why traditionally masculine roles might be paid better than traditionally feminine ones, fine, but only if you're also willing to push for equal representation in - say - childcare, or prison. But pushing for more equality there would benefit men, which is much less commonly done. Again, there's a degree of hypocrisy here.

The conclusion I reach from this is that the same risk-taking that makes men likely to end up in jail, hospital, or the morgue might also be the same risk taking that makes them start businesses and end up as bosses. As I say, I'll join you in encouraging everyone to follow whatever they want to do, and I regularly make short-term hiring decisions which benefit women, but it is at the very least much more complex than mainstream feminism likes to admit.

In short your husband has a point and it's mainly about hypocrisy and double standards, and the fact that a lot of society thinks that's not only okay, but actively good.

plaudite_cives · 2022-10-06T08:37:36+00:00

where did feminism go wrong? Feminism - as I understand it - shouldn’t
be about man bashing. Quite the opposite! It ought to be concerned with
gender equity for everyone, but instead it’s lead to combativeness.

That's like asking where the state went wrong, that it shouldn't be about taking people's rights but helping them

everything has unintended consequences and people are selfish

toblotron · 2022-10-06T08:43:28+00:00

My guess: "where feminism went wrong"?

Short answer: unbridled tribalism.

Long, pretty incoherent, badly formulated answer:

Well.. take Any group of people, convince some of them that society is based on hating them, and built for their oppressor, and then declare anyone who questions them to be a hateful monster - and you will get a group that has the same problems.

If the group you took was windowwashers, there would soon be moral panics about which is the worse sin: having windows, not having windows, washing your own windows, hiring windowwashers.. all these things could be interpreted as a kind of oppression against windowwashers. Reasonable "windowwasherists" would be silenced and disenfranchised through purity spirals, and God help the windowwashers who don't see a problem with windows, or washing them.

SeerUD · 2022-10-06T09:02:20+00:00

Feminism is focused on women's rights and the challenges that women face, and there are plenty that they definitely still do face, but men's problems are often ignored or left to men to solve. I would say I'm egalitarian because I want and try to do things that get us closer to equality for everybody. Anything less than that is never going to work. This is where I think things have gone wrong personally, and this is why there is combativeness.
I'm quite a literal person, so to me, feminism is about advocating for women's rights helping women deal with the problems they face, and making it so they don't have to face those problems in the future.
Become egalitarian. Just be equal. Teach your child to be the same, to treat everyone with respect and courtesy. That is how we get past this. You've built up this reaction that you described to hearing about men facing issues (of which there are also plenty) so now it's time to tear that down.

I think some feminists would say that they do want equality for everybody, and if they genuinely do, then they're no longer feminist and are in fact, egalitarian.

Imagine what society could be focusing on and what problems we'd be tackling if we weren't all bickering with each other about things that are completely out of our control.

Artimiz2001 · 2022-10-06T13:40:13+00:00

It should be about equality for both sexist and it went wrong when we made it “feminist” because it has the work fem, which is basically female so yeah .

Beautiful-Hedgehog56 · 2022-10-07T14:36:39+00:00

Just wanted to thank everyone for their responses! I’ve not had time to reply to everyone- or even most of you- but have read as many answers as I can. I definitely feel like I have a better understanding of where many of you are coming from. I can honestly say that I generally agree with most of the responses. Though there are some responses I don’t agree with, I now better understand the thinking and emotion behind those perspectives. Thank you.

2022-10-11T23:07:00+00:00

I hope I'm not the only one who's sick and tired of this "no true feminist" argument being used over and over again. Feminist don't have a clue about men or boys.

Feminism has always been wrong. Feminism is nothing but bashing men and boys.
A pile of shit is still a pile of shit regardless of what you call it and the same can be said about feminism.
Down vote for me this but...as a feminist you have no business trying to raise a son.

The only activism you should undertake is calling out your "sisters" over any disparaging remarks or sweeping generalizations they may make of men and boys. Don't ever talk over your husband, son or any other man that matters in your life about their experiences and listen to them. Lastly, if you take umbrage with this than you take it up with with other women and feminist and fucking call them out, not us.

TheGreatWhodini0 · 2022-10-05T18:41:04+00:00

Lol, yeah very reasonable takes.

Alexandriascott13 · 2022-10-06T01:36:30+00:00

Actually nothing went wrong with feminism, so don’t believe the hype. The more power in the more strength that women have been obtaining the more angry men are getting, so that’s what you’re seeing. You’re seeing a lot of angry men getting mad at women becoming successful, so please keep that in mind. However on the other side, men have rights as well and they’re not always recognize so I can definitely see that point of you. A mother should be aware of these things as I would. I am a very huge feminist, but I do believe that a lot of men’s rights do get overlooked. But please don’t think anything has gone wrong with feminism it’s just growing and people don’t like it.

gamerlololdude · 2022-10-06T05:57:46+00:00

this sub misuses the term feminist. better to ask this question on r/MensLib

the thing is neither can understanding feminism be done in 1 Reddit comment. people take several university courses to understand it. there are several branches and waves of feminism. all having their contributions and downfalls.

start by reading the sidebar on r/AskFeminists the sub itself is not very good for asking questions and neither is r/Feminism but the side bar of r/AskFeminists will give you the very basics.

there are 4 waves of feminism. there are also various branches like radical feminism, intersectional feminism, queer feminism.

generally speaking feminism is the ideology and thus movement concerned with gender equity. it started as a women's rights movement since back then women were seen as men's property. you can read Right Wing Women by Drworkin. it is a 1980s book and it gives a glimpse into how women were viewed and treated. so just like abolitionism had to do with abolishing slavery feminism is that umbrella term for liberating people from gender inequality.

https://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.ca/en/article/feminism

now about the issue with downfalls. things like 2nd wave feminism or trans-exclusionary radical feminism end up doing harm rather than good towards gender equity. you need to understand though where they are coming from. usually it is a location and time period thing.

so in Canada 2nd wave feminism comes off like a step backwards since there intersectional feminism with a focus on the gender identity spectrum is the new norm. But in US where women lost rights to bodily autonomy you are kinda going backwards. While in Middle East they are even more behind.

2nd wave feminism in particular was problematic because it lead to seeing men and women as like 2 competing teams where women try to one-up men. This is why TERFs came out too because they end up seeing women as their own team against men so do not want to welcome trans women (for seeing them as men). on top of that the whole branch of radical feminism is based on theories of how sex differences are the defining root of oppression for women (hence they do not believe transgender women can be oppressed the same way and thus do not qualify for the woman status)

now. but where are we today and where do we go today. I like to think of it as human rights rather than men vs women rights. this is closer to the intersectional feminism. it should be based in compassion instead of competition. see issues that impact all aspects of gender inequality. having menstrual products available in bathrooms like toilet paper, banning non-consensual circumcision, legalizing women toplessness so women's bodies stop being seen as sex objects, dedicate time to teaching emotional intelligence and mental health hygiene to men. see what double standards exist and try to work towards what would human want. human wants to have menstrual products, human wants to have bodily autonomy over what gets done with its genitals, human wants to be topless the same, it benefits human to have emotional intelligence and focus on mental health.

Typical-Mud8641 · 2022-10-06T17:33:35+00:00

Feminism started with good intentions for example to give women who had large families and not much education or life experience in the 50s/60s and 70s that were facing divorce, some spousal and child support so they didn't have to live in poverty. But those good intentions have not kept up with the times, women no longer have large families, or on average are uneducated without life experience so spousal support should have been adjusted downward and time limited and yet the awards have increased and are typically duration matched to the length of the marriage. The idea that feminism is levelling the playing field is demonstrably false for almost any area one cares to look, when are more educated than men, live longer, are happier, and when matched for skills and experience earn more. Feminism should be being wound down but it isn't. Feminism also consistently looks at extremely successful men as the benchmark: Elon, Leo, Justin Bieber, Tom Brady while the average guy is a low income earner trying to scrape by who is lonely and likely not having much luck dating and even that is weaponized against them. Unless you and your husband are upper middle class or better your son is very likely to struggle, your husband is correct to be worried.

Title	Help this feminist understand.
Author	Beautiful-Hedgehog56
Upvotes	298
Comments	294
Date	October 5, 2022 5:35 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/xwgyci/help_this_feminist_understand/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/help-this-feminist-understand.1134968 https://theredarchive.com/post/1134968

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