Interesting | MensRights

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He goes wherever there is Karma to be had

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Your comment I replied to said "we had forums on how to prevent men from abusing their spouses". Nothing about "and vice versa" and even if this one shelter in particular did have mens and womens seminars and they were equal in terms of availability and content (which honestly is quite hard to believe) that is not the norm which is a problem.

The norm is that shelters are for women because they are the abused and seminars are for men because they are the abusers. Just scroll through just the comment section on this one post and you'll see posts about availability of mens shelters and how calling an abuse hotline as a man gets you redirected to an abusers hotline. Venture out into the sub and you'll see screen shots from schools where young boys are taught they are the biggest threat to women and need to learn at a young age not to hit and rape them.

I was ambivalent to "men's rights" as an issue until I had a son. I am in a happy marriage with a pragmatic woman and I don't expect to ever need to experience problems like divorce and custody inequality or abuse or false accusations (fingers crossed). But I don't want my son to go to school where he and is taught he is a danger to women just because he has a penis.

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[+]bluedragonlord64 9 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

You need to listen and believe people when they tell you stories in which they're the victim.

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Whoa there. I take issue with the fact that he's insinuating that typing is more difficult than hand writing.

As someone who occasionally does things, I'm speaking from experience.

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[–]LucifersHammerr 99 points100 points101 points 9 years ago* (9 children) | Copy Link

The Duluth Model is widely being done away with.

Thanks to MRA's, domestic violence against men is finally being recognized despite decades of feminist opposition. Unfortunately only a tiny, tiny fraction of the resources devoted to the issue are going to male victims. Again, this is due to feminist lobbying.

Women lacked the societal standing thus lacked the ability to get out of abusive situations.

That's feminist revisionist history.

"In America, there have been laws against wife beating since before the Revolution. By 1870, it was illegal in almost every state; but even before then, wife-beaters were arrested and punished for assault and battery. The historian and feminist Elizabeth Pleck observes in a scholarly article entitled "Wife-Battering in Nineteenth-Century America":

"It has often been claimed that wife-beating in nineteenth-century America was legal... Actually, though, several states passed statutes legally prohibiting wife-beating; and at least one statute even predates the American Revolution. The Massachusetts Bay Colony prohibited wife-beating as early as 1655. The edict states: "No man shall strike his wife nor any woman her husband on penalty of such fine not exceeding ten pounds for one offense, or such corporal punishment as the County shall determine."

[Pleck] points out that punishments for wife-beaters could be severe: according to an 1882 Maryland statute, the culprit could receive forty lashes at the whipping post; in Delaware, the number was thirty. In New Mexico, fines ranging from $225 to $1000 were levied, or sentences of one to five years in prison imposed. For most of our history, in fact, wife-beating has been considered a sin comparable to to thievery or adultery. Religious groups -- especially Protestant groups such as Quakers, Methodists, and Baptists -- punished, shunned, and excommunicated wife-beaters. Husbands, brothers, and neighbors often took vengence against the batterer. Vigilante parties sometimes abducted wife-beaters and whipped them."

It had nothing to do with "social standing" but rather the fact that most women didn't work (they didn't want to). The only reason wife beaters weren't treated even more severely is that someone needed to provide for the women. That's why whipping was often used instead of imprisonment.

Things like marital rape were not illegal all over the US till 1993.

Sex was considered part of the marital contract. It simply never occurred to anyone that a man could "rape" his wife. As soon as feminists raised the issue, male legislators obliged in changing the law. The obviously far more serious issue is that female on male rape often isn't even recognized at all, even if it's a boy. In fact the feminist Mary Koss excluded male victims from the very definition or rape by using the term "forced to penetrate."

[–]baskandpurr 11 points12 points13 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

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[–]LucifersHammerr 42 points43 points44 points 9 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

enforcement was hardly followed through with.

Sure it was. Countless men were literally tied up and whipped if not lynched outright if it was revealed they were beating their wives.

Violence Against Women Acts that had marked benefits on the reporting of DV.

Perhaps we need a violence against men act.

More than just MRAs have advocated for men here.

Feminists certainly have not. They're the ones who paint DV as a gendered issue. The laws on this were more progressive hundreds of years ago lol.

There is no grand conspiracy against these shelters.

I never claimed there was a "conspiracy" afoot. Rather most people simply don't care about male victims of domestic violence. I mean a man can literally get his penis chopped off and most women -- and men -- will just laugh about it. Now imagine the reverse. (Rightly) a moment of silence. These tendencies point to clear biases -- and not in the man's favor.

There exist a plethora of them all over.

Really? I'd like to see some evidence for that assertion. How much money is devoted to male DV shelters vs female DV shelters?

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[–]AloysiusC 16 points17 points18 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]ether_reddit 5 points6 points7 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

The Duluth Model is widely being done away with. Go read the domestic violence policy of your local police or sheriffs office.

Broad assertions like this are useless, because all jurisdictions are different.

Let's have a look at the domestic violence policy of my jurisdiction (British Columbia, Canada), shall we?

source: http://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/law-crime-and-justice/criminal-justice/victims-of-crime/vs-info-for-professionals/info-resources/domestic-violence-response.pdf

Apply a Gender Lens when Developing and Implementing Responses

A gender lens should be applied to all responses to domestic violence in order to ensure the safety of women and their children. Responses to domestic violence should acknowledge that domestic violence is a power-based crime in which, generally, the male in an intimate relationship exercises power and control over the female. The abusive power and control dynamic results in high-risk situations for victims and their children because it is used to frighten, silence, and isolate victims and prevent them from leaving or seeking help. As the dynamics of domestic violence often result in the erosion of women’s self-esteem and in their diminished ability to act, empowerment should be a central consideration in any response to domestic violence.

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But feminists's construction of society as 'patriatrchal' is exactly what has caused the under-recognition of domestic violence against men in the first place, according to experts:

Despite over 30 years of research documenting that men can sustain female-perpetrated physical, sexual, and psychological IPV, these findings remain controversial. Those that are especially controversial are statistics showing that women report using physical IPV at equal or higher rates than men, a finding that has been replicated in dozens of studies (Archer 2000). This finding of a high rate of violence by female partners has been challenged primarily on conceptual bases because it is inconsistent with the dominant theoretical perspective of the cause of IPV: the patriarchal construction of our nation

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3175099/

[–]bartink 47 points48 points49 points 9 years ago (40 children) | Copy Link

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[–]FreeThinkingMan -1 points0 points1 point 9 years ago (33 children) | Copy Link

I believe bartink is referring more to this sub upvoting this image that disregards all feminist issues through a non-sequitor. This reinforces the men's rights activists stereotype that they are red pillers, ignore every single problem females face, they make it an us vs them pissing contest for who has it the worst as opposed to fixing/addressing issues that afflict both communities. The fact that this incorrect logic is used to dismiss all the issues women combat and is widely viewed as a legitimate argument is pretty fucking outrageous. This promotes sexism and the oppression of women.

So not identifying with a group which has done, said and endorsed some objectively shitty things makes you a bad person somehow?

Also to look at the shittiest things done by a banner and use that to write off all of their legitimate grievances they represent is also irrational, ridiculous, and a non sequitur as well.

I am a secular humanist and therefore a feminist and a "men's rights activist".

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[–]FreeThinkingMan -3 points-2 points-1 points 9 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

That is no leap. You didn't understand what I said which is why you responded the way you did.

Not everybody has to identify with the group that calls themselves 3rd wave feminism to fight for the rights of women, or everyone for that matter. Talk about incorrect logic.

Nobody mentioned 3rd wave feminism... That is poor logic and a straw man. "3rd wave feminism" is not all feminism is or ever was. Try to be objective kid. I said I am a men's right's activist too. Feminism = addressing certain problems that only face women in the broadest sense. Men's Rights = addressing certain problems that only men face in the broadest sense. It sounds like you have been severely brainwashed, I suggest you rethink where you get your information from and what is a credible source.

Just look at how all feminism, which again is "addressing certain problems that only women face" are COMPLETELY disregarded because of the non-sequitor that is linked to here. Look at how many people upvoted this to the top, that is exactly what red pillers would do and that is irrational.

[–]Fudde 7 points8 points9 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

[–]FreeThinkingMan 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

You didn't point out any leaps of logic, not even hops. I just provided valid counter arguments to everything in your last comment wtf are you talking about "leaps of logic"? You aren't even trying to defend your position with arguments anymore... Meditate on what the means about your position and its validity.

No one's disregarding women's rights just because they're upvoting someone who supports men,

Stop lying to yourself. The girl is holding a poster that says she doesn't need feminism because battered men's shelters don't exist and that is voted to the top. That is the very definition of disregarding all the problems women face for irrational reasons and every one here thinks that is a good argument. If they were upvoting something like a girl holding a poster saying "I don't need feminism because the sky is blue", you think that is a valid reason to upvote the post? Just because they are against addressing the problems that only women face(feminism)? That is stupid, you people up vote stupidity and non sequitors because "fuck feminsm"? That makes no sense.

[–]drazzy92 8 points9 points10 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

http://womenspost.ca/owner-of-shelter-for-abused-men-and-children-commits-suicide-after-financial-ruin-ridicule/

Just look at how all feminism, which again is "addressing certain problems that only women face" are COMPLETELY disregarded because of the non-sequitor that is linked to here. Look at how many people upvoted this to the top, that is exactly what red pillers would do and that is irrational.

That is literally the fault of feminism itself. They were incredibly intolerant to any other movement. Back in the early 10s my sister and I were active egalitarians/MRAs, and I was basically shunned by all of my friends and family members. My sister was labeled a "self-internalizing misogynist who needs to be helped!!!" I was labeled as the woman hater who corrupted my little sister.

The funny thing was she was the one who opened my eyes to the MRA movement. Feminists were intolerant, still are, and they facilitated this attitude of intolerance. Therefore they made their beds and just need to lay down in it. I refuse to take anyone who calls themselves a feminist seriously because of the connotations feminism has. How can you associate with such a horrible movement that literally tore apart every single movement that tried to focus on issues other than feminism?

The movement that masturbated every day to articles on the wage gap despite it becoming more and more obvious by the day that the wage gap didn't exist or wasn't as big as they were saying. They made fun of people for saying it wasn't real, turned them into pariahs, and now they're finally swallowing the fact that it's not real. Well, the damage is done. I know a lot of people who focus on "feminist" issues without associating with the movement. These are the ones I respect.

After all, it's such a bold move to refuse to associate with feminism, and it sure as hell means you know your shit.

[–]bartink 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]iongantas 6 points7 points8 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]drazzy92 11 points12 points13 points 9 years ago* (7 children) | Copy Link

This is just pure ignorance. I'm glad that there were other more eloquent posters to rip your comment apart because it was pretty stupid. Feminists have consistently, constantly, without fail always stood in the way of men focusing on their disadvantages saying, "Wait! Women need to be elevated first before we can start focusing on men!"

Their last remaining card they were holding was the wage gap, and now that it has been denounced by most credible organizations everyone is finally beginning to accept people focusing on male disadvantages and there are many of them. When you call a DV hotline and specify that you are male there are some companies that will fucking redirect you to the abuser hotline.

You need to do your research. Also, I have an axe to grind when it comes to feminism because of how they would consistently tear apart any movement that they didn't approve of calling them women haters or god forbid "fedoras." Nowadays it's pretty rare to meet a feminist who thinks of a MRA or egalitarian as anything other than a "fedora" or a "woman hater." It's bullshit and it's that kind of intolerance to other movements that will be the final nail in its coffin.

Feminism is not an one size fits all. Period. Google what feminism has ever done for disadvantages of being a male, and you'll see that as I said they have consistently. constantly, without fail stood in every single effort.

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It's unfortunate the way people can work to change the meaning of a label. That's why even though groups appear to be elitist when they don't just allow anyone to take part it's easy to see how important it can be to protect a label from being twisted and transformed into something that was never intended to be by the original creators.

That's why denouncing things and people who aren't doing it right is so important. If I was a highly recognized feminist or feminist group I would make a large effort to pay attention to anyone gaining popularity as a feminist and make sure their values align with true feminism. If their values do not I would make that clear to the public. It's a difficult task but you can't pretend you have one of the largest modern movements while completely ignoring the fact that there is a huge amount of disparity in the beliefs and values of your members.

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[–]double-happiness 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Well, it's not really an argument at all, but actually a straightforward question.

My understanding is that feminists call themselves 'feminists' as opposed to say 'gender equalists' because they believe that we have historically lived in a type of society called 'patriarchy' where men are systematically advantaged, and women are oppressed as a group. In essence, they believe that women are not treated equally to men.

If that is not your understanding of the derivation of the word, then what is?

Edit:

The term “feminism” originated from the French word “feminisme,” coined by the utopian socialist Charles Fourier, and was first used in English in the 1890s, in association with the movement for equal political and legal rights for women. [My emphasis]

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Feminism

So feminists are only concerned with equal political and legal rights for women, are they not?

[–]unbuttoned 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]BlackEnjoysTheYellow 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

You're making this planet dumber. Every opinion has a contrasting opinion. You better take that into an unbiased consideration if you want to better yourself in any way.

If you don't look at the other side, why are you evening arguing? You're clearly not willing to budge!

So Don't even argue if you arent willing to change your position! Why should someone else be inclined to alter their position but you are immune to that same demand?

I see this shit on reddit all the time. Hivemind mentality! someone says something popular, people agree and upvote it, and then downvote anything contrary without even thinking about it.

Common core gets flack like this, Service animals and emotional support animals get flack like this, gaming consoles get flack like this, Politics worldwide run on this idea, the media flourishes on shit like clickbait articles because of this mentality.

Literally everything terrible with the social world has some sort of tie back to individual people not wanting to budge on their own convoluted opinion.

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[–]jc5504 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]gotham_possum 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

But its come to the point that being a feminist is like being a vegan/vegetarian, it's not an exclusive group that you need to sign up for, anyone can be a "Feminist". So many things that are argued aren't even real issues, things a feminist should be fighting for is actual real world issues, like the insane laws for Women in the middle east, or the fact that you guys are fighting and rioting against rape it should be for all genders right? so why are more men being raped in prison, though you don't like counting that stat, because it lowers the ratio of women being raped over men. You don't see Feminist's rioting outside of prisons to end all rape against Men? Or the fact that more Men are committing Suicide every year than Woman, face it Feminists only like to fight for things that happen against Women and it is almost always blamed on Men. I have never seen a Feminist make on honest effort to fight for a Men's issue that actually might be the result of another Women's actions. Fight for things like how Men are given longer prison sentences than Women for the same crime, or how in film if a Man strikes another Women its considered domestic abuse, but if you see a Women slap a Man in the face shes being strong and standing up for herself, cause he probably deserved to be hit right? Feminist's love to say that they fight for equality, but in reality they only fight for themselves.

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The fact about men's abuse shelters used in the OP is being referred to a "not true"

(As far as I can tell)

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They don't exist in Canada. One did once, but it was funded out of pocket because the feminists running the rest of the DV shelters fought to keep any funding from going there. The owner killed himself after he lost everything to debt, trying to help as many male victims as he could.

In the US they are sparse, incredibly so. And the hotlines have close to an 85% chance to forward you to a batterers hotline or accuse the man of being the abuser, while only 5% of the time they actually help the men.

Many shelters, in my experience, outright turn away men despite saying they accept them. The most common reason being "the women here aren't comfortable with men being around"

So sure, a handful might exist. But you're not actually countering the point. Are at least 40% of those shelters accepting men? Or are 100% of those accepting women and maybe a generous 2% accepting men?

[–]LucifersHammerr 14 points15 points16 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]Anakin-Skyrunner 9 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

When my mom was in a shelter me and my three brothers were let in to one. Are you speaking of a shelter that allows men over 18 to enter? I never asked but they pr ban wouldn't have let us in if I was over 18. Even though i may still be dependent and in danger from my dad at home.

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[+]thatsitthatsright 9 years ago [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

But... But... It's on the internet and it supports my view. It must be true!

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I like this one, because I can relate to it. I had my step-father at my house yesterday in tears because of the way my mother is (I don't talk to her anymore). She verbally abuses him and threatens to stab him on a regular basis, because she has mental health issues that she refuses to get help for. He's loyal to a fault. He told me yesterday that he sleeps in my old bedroom and barricades the door shut, in case she tries to attack him when he's sleeping (with one eye open).

My step-father and I had troubles when I was a teenager (who doesn't?), and since moving out, my mother has always told me how abusive and controlling he is. 15 years later I've learned that hardly any of what she has said is true. I feel so guilty now for resenting and hating him for so long, because of my blind loyalty to a crazy, controlling and manipulative woman. I've told him to leave her and move in with me, wife, kids, and Nan (dad's mum). I can't bare to see him broken and crying at 63.

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Do we have a study somewhere to back this up? I have heard much smaller numbers than this. The largest of which was 19%.

What studies are you looking at?

http://web.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm

SUMMARY: This bibliography examines 286 scholarly investigations: 221 empirical studies and 65 reviews and/or analyses, which demonstrate that women are as physically aggressive, or more aggressive, than men in their relationships with their spouses or male partners. The aggregate sample size in the reviewed studies exceeds 371,600.

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/pub/85-002-x/2016001/article/14303/01-eng.htm

In 2014, equal proportions of men and women reported being victims of spousal violence during the preceding 5 years (4%, respectively). This translated into about 342,000 women and 418,000 men across the provinces. Similar declines in spousal violence were recorded for both sexes since 2004.

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That's because men don't report being DV victims to police. If they do, they know they will likely get arrested.

That's not just my opinion, but the findings of actual studies.

My same source I linked states:

A ‘very high’ level of satisfaction with police action was reported by 37% of victims, especially among women (48%) when compared to men (25%E). A further 28% of victims reported being ‘somewhat satisfied’ with the actions taken by police. The remainder of victims reported being ‘somewhat dissatisfied’ (15%E) or ‘very dissatisfied’ (17%E) with how the police responded. Men were more likely than women to report being ‘very dissatisfied’ with how the police handled their situation (25%E versus 11%E, respectively).

As you can see, men are far more likely than women to report being "very dissatisfied" with the police treatment, and far less likely to report being very satisfied.

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Although this message carries a positive message, domestic violence statistically is the leading cause of injury to women in America.

Source?

So feminism of the right kind is much needed in their society.

I suspect this is a subtle 'no true scotsman' fallacy. What is 'the right kind' of feminism? Would that be the feminists that you approve of? Unfortunately, feminism is a large movement, and the movement as a whole (not just extremists) is detrimental to men's rights. You can't decide who are or are not 'real' feminists.

Sure, we need the 'right kind of feminism', in the same way we need the 'right kind of Nazi' (like Oskar Schindler). A good minority doesn't mean that feminism as a whole isn't detrimental to men's rights, which makes it valid to say that for the sake of human rights and equality, the Western world is better off without feminism.

Its not right to deny what feminism does for women in order to promote mens rights

Nobody here is denying what feminist do for women's rights, except feminists themselves: we have seen feminism try to give women more rights than men, or take away rights men should have and we are fed up with it.

And shelters for men do exist.

Rhinos exist too, but it's disingenuous to imply that they exist anywhere close to the same number as deer, though they both have equal right to exist. There are male shelters, but those are a very small minority of all shelters (the other shelters being for women), even though men are just as often the victims of domestic violence.

Yes, women die more often from domestic violence, but that is no excuse to have almost no domestic violence shelters for men: maybe the shelter ratio shouldn't be 50/50, but it definitely shouldn't be 10/90. Also, have you considered that having a male DV shelter could combat female victims as well? If a woman is abusing her man, he has no recourse due to social pressures and discrimination in the legal system that will usually consider him the abuser if his spouse has so much as a bruise on her body. The abuse will go on until he's had enough, and then he'll snap and kill his spouse. If he had a DV shelter to escape to, it might reduce the chance of that happening.

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[–]bufedad 3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Numbers were a little off from memory.

Almost 24% of all relationships had some violence, and half (49.7%) of those were reciprocally violent.

In nonreciprocally violent relationships, women were the perpetrators in more than 70% of the cases

Reciprocity was associated with more frequent violence among women (2.3 times or 70%)

and reciprocal intimate partner violence was associated with greater injury than was nonreciprocal intimate partner violence regardless of the gender of the perpetrator (AOR=4.4; 95% CI=3.6, 5.5).

Almost 24% of all relationships had some violence, and half (49.7%) of those were reciprocally violent. In nonreciprocally violent relationships, women were the perpetrators in more than 70% of the cases. Reciprocity was associated with more frequent violence among women (adjusted odds ratio [AOR]=2.3; 95% confidence interval [CI]=1.9, 2.8), but not men (AOR=1.26; 95% CI=0.9, 1.7). Regarding injury, men were more likely to inflict injury than were women (AOR=1.3; 95% CI=1.1, 1.5), and reciprocal intimate partner violence was associated with greater injury than was nonreciprocal intimate partner violence regardless of the gender of the perpetrator (AOR=4.4; 95% CI=3.6, 5.5).

National Institute of Health

These aren't some long held secrets kept from society. Anyone who has done any research into domestic violence statistics at all already knows this

[–]420weedscopes 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

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And nazis are pro-Jew because I can find 9 or 10 examples of nazis that helped Jews. /s

We are talking about feminism the movement: the general movement. Not small groups. Yes, there were/are some feminists that fight for men's issues (e.g. Christina Hoff Sommers). However, she has been 'cast out' of the movement by her feminist peers.

How is gay marriage 'men's rights'? Women can be gay too, you know. I think this exemplifies most of the times feminism 'fought' for men's rights: it's a byproduct. And now you are using all those byproducts to say: "See, feminism cares about men's issues!" No, those things often happened because feminism was trying to push some women's issue, and the men had to be taken along as well. (If feminism came out as pro-lesbian, but anti-gay, that wouldn't fly well).

Let's talk about the biggest feminist organisation in the US, NOW. It supports the wage gap myth, the rape culture myth and all the incorrect statistics that go along with that, it focuses on violence against women while excluding mentioning men (even though it's been shown that men suffer at the same rate from domestic violence) and it fought against shared parenting, to the benefit of women etc. So it's safe to say that judging by its actions, NOW is not pro-men.

If feminism generally fought as hard for men as it does for women, how come there is no response from the majority of feminists, or the biggest feminist organisation in the US (NOW) when presidential candidate Hilary Clinton says (during a conference on domestic violence, ironically): "Women have always been the primary victims of war. Women lose their husbands, their fathers, their sons in combat. Women often have to flee from the only homes they have ever known."

Or when a president quotes the wage gap myth (which existence results in sexism against men), where is that majority of good feminists that contest it? Where is NOW, or r/feminism or any large congregation of feminist?

See, you can say that feminism helps men until the end of days, but (exceptions aside) that doesn't make it true. Feel free to prove me wrong: where is that majority of pro-men feminists hiding? The ones that make it clear they know that

-men suffer from DV violence at the same rate as women, yet they have hardly any DV shelters. -men suffer much more from violence in general, but the attention, funding and support still goes mainly to women. -men can get raped, they face a social stigma for it, and there isn't much help for them -the Violence Against Women Act (VAWA) is clearly sexist and should be altered -the wage gap is a myth and the policies that result from that myth harm men. -rape culture (in the West) is a myth and the policies that result from that myth harm men. etc.

They don't even have to acknowledge all of these, just show me that huge majority of good feminists that clearly, honestly intend to help men to the same degree as women, and acknowledge that men aren't just their own worst enemy (looking at you menslib), but that society disadvantages men in several, very tangible ways.

EDIT: The top comments in this thread explain very well why MRAs dislike feminism as a whole, though it is a lot to read.

[–]DarkestTimeLime 5 points6 points7 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Elvick 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Gay marriage didn't need feminism to be pushed through. Feminism opposes gay men a lot, and slanders us constantly if it will benefit them.

They'll call us sexist, misogynistic [even going as far as to say we're more so than straight men! So we are worse than the greatest evil ever, straight men], and say things like we'd care more about dancing in underwear and "taking Molly" than "helping women" ie; being their tools.

They value gay men like they value all men. As tools to use for themselves. They will throw us under the bus, and have. Minority men have the same issues with feminism. Like that nonsense "Pin Box" feminist thing helping "black people" except when you dig deeper all the two black females vacationing on a beach somewhere when they had this idea to exploit white guilt, are actually benefiting are black women. [if they're even doing that and not 100% pocketing all the money]

All minority men can rely on is their minority status to find help. If they're a victim because of a black woman, then tough shit. Black men's struggles are under cut by black women's struggles. And you can't claim a black woman is racist toward a black man. So the only factor he can rely on is gone. Now he's just a man. And that means nothing to most of society, because women are more important not just to feminism, but to the general public because it's in our nature to place importance on the gender that our species lives and dies on. And feminism exploits that protective nature we have toward women. The nature to put them first, even at the detriment of men. Even though we're 7 billion strong as a species.

NOW has opposed default shared custody as an example. Feminists are infringing on the rights of men all across the first world in colleges, by pushing for things that infringe on their right to a fair trial and presumption of innocence. If feminism cared about women, they'd want them to go to the police if they are raped. Not have some kangaroo court take care of a criminal act. But hey, there's no negative consequence for women who do this it just hurts men. The end justifies the means, they should've thought about all that male privilege before they decided to be born male! /s

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So, I know this might be seen as an unpopular or outsider opinion in this subreddit, but I'd like to respond to this picture honestly and express what might be considered a feminist response.

Men popularly being viewed as unable to be victims of domestic abuse is definitely a result of patriarchal conditioning. It has to do with how society expects men to behave and react, and what we expect from "masculinity". Being a victim of a class of people generally considered weak and demure implies weakness in the man. It is seen as emasculating, in the same way calling a man a bitch or a pussy or saying something like "I'm taking away your man card" is seen. In a patriarchy, men have are expected to have power. If that power is construed as being taken away, the man loses his status.

People expect a lot of things from men in order for them to live up to the label of "masculine". Damaging things, that are bad for the health of men and boys. Things like not having close relationships with other men (its not friendship, it's "bromance", because intimacy among friends can't be accepted without couching it in layers of irony), not expressing feelings in any meaningful way, not crying, being aggressive and generally "alpha". These are all traits of the masculine gender role, and when taken to the extreme leads to things like police assuming the man is the perpetrator and not the victim, because women are weak and incapable of taking power from a man and men are aggressive and tend to react violently to negative emotions. These ideas of what a man's role is, and the behavior he ought to be engaging in, is also a major contributor to why so many men face a stacked deck in custody battles or get the short end of the stick in a divorce.

This isn't evidence against the patriarchy, but strong evidence for it. This is how society cultivates men in what they want and expect them to be, by robbing them of the means and confidence to be anything else. We expect so much posturing from men, and the net of narrowly-defined "masculinity" is woven so tightly into how we behave, that if a man ever finds himself the victim of a power imbalance, such as domestic violence or, God forbid, rape, the fear of appearing somehow weakened or lessened prevents them from coming forward about it.

She's right, in that there is a silent victim hood, and it is alarmingly high and ill-recognized. But that problem has so little to do with feminism, I don't know why she'd feel it means she doesn't need it. Feminism is female action against the patriarchy, in an effort to establish a better position in society for themselves. Men need the same thing, a concerted effort and a community working against patriarchy to establish for themselves a new set of rules to live by. Personal feelings about feminism aside, I think most people here would agree men face serious problems in society, and deserve the right to address those problems without being dismissed outright. (edit to add)That said, men seeking to free themselves from these constraining boxes are fighting the same fight feminism is fighting, but feminists and masculinists alike often get distracted fighting each other and forget to identify the common cause of their problems.

A large problem is the idea of "patriarchy" is a lot like "democracy" or "capitalism", in that everyone has a different idea of what it is, how it works, how it should work, and we all have different experiences with it. Ask a rich man and a pooram what capitalism gets wrong, and you'll get different, often opposite, answers.

[–]ContHund 37 points38 points39 points 9 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

Men popularly being viewed as unable to be victims of domestic abuse is definitely a result of patriarchal conditioning. It has to do with how society expects men to behave and react, and what we expect from "masculinity". Being a victim of a class of people generally considered weak and demure implies weakness in the man. It is seen as emasculating, in the same way calling a man a bitch or a pussy or saying something like "I'm taking away your man card" is seen. In a patriarchy, men have are expected to have power. If that power is construed as being taken away, the man loses his status.

I'll have to stop you right there and point that that in this case, and every case of the substitution of the word society with "patriarchy" when we are blaming society for some problem, is blatant misandry. Always has been, always will be.

It would be like referring to all theft as a result of "Negroarchal" conditioning. Would that not make me a massive racist?

You can call the societal pressure towards traditional gender roles what it actually is, calling it the patriarchy is just a slimy way that feminists vilify men for something that both men and women do.

[–]EricAllonde 3 points4 points5 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I'll have to stop you right there and point that that in this case, and every case of the substitution of the word society with "patriarchy" when we are blaming society for some problem, is blatant misandry.

I've also wondered about why feminists insist on saying "patriarchy" when they clearly mean something closer to "socially accepted gender roles". My guess is that's it's a combination of misandry, as you say, and also letting themselves off the hook.

If something negative is due to gender roles, then women can play a role in fixing it by changing their own thinking about gender. For example: too few women doing STEM courses because gender roles encourage them to do teaching and nursing instead? Solution: women change their attitudes regarding which careers are suitable for women.

Uh, oh! It looks like it's on women to fix their under-representation in STEM! Can't have that, so what can feminists do? Answer: replaced "gender roles" with "patriarchy". Now it's all men's fault, and feminists can sit back in condescending judgement while they demand men fix the problem that they created.

[+]withoutamartyr -10 points-9 points-8 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–]LucifersHammerr 23 points24 points25 points 9 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

[+]withoutamartyr -12 points-11 points-10 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]LucifersHammerr 21 points22 points23 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I think "the vast majority" is an overstatement

4 percent of men in the UK consider themselves feminists.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/life/only-7-per-cent-of-britons-consider-themselves-feminists/

"female sexual selection is perhaps the most important factor in driving male behavior" is a ridiculous oversimplification, and frankly a little insulting to men.

It is women who determine how masculinity is expressed. “It is within their power of selective neglect to produce a sex ration heavily in favor of females over males. It also lies within woman’s power to sabotage the development of ‘masculine’ males by rewarding little boys for being passive rather than aggressive.” - Marvin Harris

When women hold a proportional amount of legislative power in the house and the Senate

That would literally make no difference. None. Nada. Women have in-group bias where males have a bias toward females. That's why most men have no interest in funding DV shelters for other men but jump at the opportunity to fund DV shelters for women.

Your fundamental error is to assume that men in power give a shit about other men. There is literally zero evidence for this. It makes sense neither form a biological perspective or a traditional class based perspective. Men have never, nor will they ever attempt to privilege other men at the expense of women, and all of history is testament to that fact.

[–]contractor808 25 points26 points27 points 9 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

She's right, in that there is a silent victim hood, and it is alarmingly high and ill-recognized. But that problem has so little to do with feminism, I don't know why she'd feel it means she doesn't need it.

You aren't acquainted with the alternating feminist crusade and obscuring of male victims. The most common forms this takes are the arguments

Women have it worse! There's aren't enough male victims to need services for men! (using flawed statistics/police reports to justify limiting resources)
Domestic violence is gendered violence against women and a way for men to exert their power over women. (Duluth Model)

Also consider the terrible legislation implemented with the help of feminists such as the aforementioned Duluth Model of domestic violence, mandatory arrest laws aimed at "predominant aggressors" (aka men), and the enabling of false accusations via said policies and well funded advocates that serve on the woman's behalf in court.

And all of these policies hinge on faulty or outright misleading "advocacy research" that ignores male victims. It's a cycle. Create research that shows only women are victims. Use that research to advocate only for female victims and policies that advantage them. Use the resulting arrest statistics and police reports in new research that reaffirms the original premise that women are the primary victims.

There is some social reasons for men's situation and there are some biological reasons. It's important not to cover for feminism when it has a long record of opposing male victims of domestic violence in particular, and male victims in general.

[–]LucifersHammerr 39 points40 points41 points 9 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Men popularly being viewed as unable to be victims of domestic abuse is definitely a result of patriarchal conditioning.

Nope. If you go back eg to colonial Virginia there were laws on the books that prohibited men from striking their wives and wives from striking their husbands. Feminists came along and created the Duluth model, which portrays DV as a patriarchal conspiracy even though it is not a gendered issue. The Duluth model is the dominant model in every Western country. Its result is that male victims of DV are often themselves arrested. Feminists have consistently opposed efforts to highlight male victims (eg the White Ribbon in Australia) and sent death threats to Erin Pizzey -- who founded the first women's shelter in the UK -- when she rejected Duluth.

It has to do with how society expects men to behave and react, and what we expect from "masculinity".

Again, nothing to do with "the patriarchy."

"What Brown also discovered in the course of her research is that, contrary to her early assumptions, men's shame is not primarily inflicted by other men. Instead, it is the women in their lives who tend to be repelled when men show the chinks in their armor."

http://www.theatlantic.com/sexes/archive/2013/04/messages-of-shame-are-organized-around-gender/275322/

Things like not having close relationships with other men (its not friendship, it's "bromance", because intimacy among friends can't be accepted without couching it in layers of irony)

The term "bromance" was created by women, not men. It's part of the current trend by feminists to mock all things male by using the term "bro" or "man" eg "brogrammer," "brosocialist," "mansplaining" etc. Also, see this thread. It's currently stickied on this sub:

https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/5g99iv/stop_telling_men_to_show_their_emotions/?st=iwokott4&sh=b34a786b

But that problem has so little to do with feminism, I don't know why she'd feel it means she doesn't need it.

Feminism doesn't really challenge gender roles despite rhetoric to the contrary. It portrays women as helpless victims and males as evil oppressors. Karen Straughan's excellent lecture on "toxic femininity" explores this in depth. I'd definitely recommend checking it out if you'd like to learn about the history of eg feminist opposition to helping male victims of domestic violence. Ironically laws about DV were more progressive several hundred years ago.

[–]Jah_Ith_Ber 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

This isn't evidence against the patriarchy, but strong evidence for it.

It's not evidence for the patriarchy, it's evidence that men are believed to have this power whether they do or not, and peoples responses are measured out to be a reflection of the power they are assumed to have.

If patriarchy is real, then we're going to treat men as the aggressor by default. If patriarchy is real, then men don't need any help.

Patriarchy isn't real though, and all that "counter-balancing" people are doing is just oppression.

You're using Partriarchy in a different way than I am, as the end of your comment suggests. But what good is calling this thing where social roles are enforced and negatively impact both sexes equally "Patriarchy"? Feminists are using the term to imply men are a class that enjoys privileges at womens expense and that's where it ends. Why not call it the social keyhole or the social press or something that isn't blatantly used to lay blame on men and enforce this idea that men are members of a cabal ruling women?

[–]remain_neutral 21 points22 points23 points 9 years ago (19 children) | Copy Link

[–]withoutamartyr 17 points18 points19 points 9 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

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[–]withoutamartyr 7 points8 points9 points 9 years ago* (16 children) | Copy Link

No shit you weren't quoting me verbatim. But if that was your takeaway from what I wrote I don't think I made myself clear, or you were being willfully obtuse.

The problem isn't men, and the problem isn't masculinity. The problem is a long series of unacknowledged and unspoken social posturings and false faces, an accumulation of behaviors we have come to describe as "normal masculinity" that is inherently confining and reductive, and any deviation from this construction is punished within the Court of Social Acceptability. The truth is "masculinity" is a multi-faceted all-encompassing multitudinous concept, and to allow ourselves to confine it to a certain small set of acceptable behaviors is doing a great disservice to men. This general social box-constructing is what I mean when I say "patriarchy", and when I say "masculinity" I say it in quotes because I'm talking about the box it comes in. Feminism has, in many ways, identified this trend towards prescriptive behavior and has taken steps to correct imbalances. I do not think we need to be feminists to solve the issues men face, or that "feminism is the answer", but I think they're right about what the problem is.

I don't know where in there you got "men are the problem"

[–]remain_neutral 16 points17 points18 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

The problem isn't men and the problem isn't masculinity

I agree with you. However I don't believe the answer is feminism, and that is likely where we disagree. I do not agree with modern feminism. My interpretation of modern feminism is "masculinity is bad". As a man who values his masculinity, I disagree. I also disagree with with the apparent notion that men are disposable, "weak" men even more so. And I completely disagree with the idea that modern feminism refutes that trope. I disagree with the odd notion that masculinity is harmful to masculinity. And I completely disagree with the idea that I am sexist because I am not a feminist. I'm not saying you agree with any of that, I'm just glossing over my interpretation of modern feminism and why I think demonizing masculinity and calling any modern first-world secular society a "patriarchy" (and railing against it simply because it is perceived as such) is bad.

[–]withoutamartyr 5 points6 points7 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

"Masculinity", in quotes, is harmful to masculinity.

What makes someone masculine, and how someone relates to their gender, is personal, and informed by their beliefs, upbringing, and immediate surroundings. No one, in their right mind, should try to question your masculinity for being into knitting, or becoming a nurse. But those things aren't in the box labeled "masculine", so society often turns those kind of people into the butt of a joke. That is what is harmful to masculinity. People mold themselves into this box they might not fit in in order to be accepted. They repress parts of themselves (maybe a passion for gardening, or something as central as their sexuality) so as not to rock the boat.

This is what people mean when they imply that "masculinity is bad". They aren't calling out the male gender, or all men, or that somehow men are the root of all problems, they're calling attention to this box labeled "masculinity", they're saying it's a narrow definition, they're saying putting pressure on men to conform to that definition is damaging to themselves and the people around them.

There are, of course, people who identify very strongly with that traditional definition, and that's totally cool. That is their right and their freedom. But there are many others who may not have even realized they had the option of stepping outside of it.

[–]remain_neutral 5 points6 points7 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]LucifersHammerr 13 points14 points15 points 9 years ago* (12 children) | Copy Link

Are you a woman perchance? I find it extremely fascinating that some women claim to be such experts on masculinity when they've never lived as a man.

Apparently the vast majority of men disagree with you. They don't think their masculinity is "toxic" and they have no interest in going around crying. They want fair laws and economic opportunity.

It is an extremely nasty thing to be telling boys to act like girls. You are abusing them by doing so. As soon as they reach puberty the neoteny that causes sympathy towards children (and women) will disappear and they will be left with no tools to survive. The combination of feminist indoctrination and fatherlessness ("destroying the patriarchal family") has indeed created a "crisis in masculinity". As it turns out, feminist theory was all wrong. Men are absolutely vital to child rearing (for both boys and girls). And men need to feel useful and honored; they don't like fighting women (hence the success of feminism) but they don't like being demonized and abused. Now that male suicide is at an all time high, you're suggesting we do more of the same!? Sorry, but men have been putting up with this bullshit for over a century and we've decided its time to put our collective foot down. Ultimately it's for your own good.

What do men want? They want (a) respect and (b) fairness. That means feminism has to go. It's a peculiar moment in time because feminism is being supported by the likes JP Morgan and Goldman Sachs and other centers of power (why is uncertain, divide and conquer perhaps) even though the number of self-described feminists is rapidly dwindling. Eventually, "gender studies" programs will go the way of eugenics studies programs and other horrors of history. Unless they rapidly evolve. In which case they may be redeemable.

[–]withoutamartyr 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]pattyice11 -1 points0 points1 point 9 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

(Assuming she's a woman)

She didn't say masculinity is toxic. She said the narrow constraints society puts on masculinity is toxic. Which is not only true but is something this sub rails against daily.

"They have no interest going around crying" You realize you're proving her point here, right? You're contributing to the societal pressures on masculinity leading to the under reporting of DV and rape as well as higher arrest rates of men for DV.

She never once said boys should act like girls. She said if a man wants to be a fucking nurse then he should be a fucking nurse. If a man likes to knit then he should be allowed to knit and not ridiculed for it. This is very different than saying a man has to knit.

She was giving men both respect and fairness, and your point of "well you're not a man so how would you know" is used repeatedly by the feminists you are arguing against. In the same way you don't have to be a woman to critique feminism, she doesn't have to be a man to talk about masculinity and societal expectations of males.

[–]LucifersHammerr 5 points6 points7 points 9 years ago* (9 children) | Copy Link

She didn't say masculinity is toxic.

You may or may not be aware that Victoria (Australia) has mandated courses about "toxic masculinity" that will be taught to children as young as five.

Now, I do have one memory from when I was about five (seeing a cat for the first time) but being that I wasn't Mozart I don't think I would have had the capability to understand concepts like "toxic masculinity" -- even if they did make sense to full grown adults. Evidently the vast majority of the population considers these ideas bizarre and silly. Unfortunately we are ruled by a plutocracy, not a democracy.

You realize you're proving her point here, right? You're contributing to the societal pressures on masculinity leading to the under reporting of DV and rape

No. I'm saying that MRA's are primarily concerned about legal/institutional/structural issues rather than "expressing their feelings." The MRM is a human's rights movement. The modern feminist movement is an anti-human rights movement primarily concerned with things like "manspreading" and policing what Halloween costumes people wear.

She said if a man wants to be a fucking nurse then he should be a fucking nurse. If a man likes to knit then he should be allowed to knit and not ridiculed for it. This is very different than saying a man has to knit.

Again, these are not issues that men care much about. If men want to be nurses they will become nurses. Teachers are the much more relevant issue -- but since "listen and believe" and general hysteria about male sexuality has replaced due process you can forget about men going into teaching.

We are concerned about institutional discrimination, such as the fact that men are sentenced to 60 percent longer sentences and can have their genitals mutilated or suffer the vast majority of child labor and be forced to fight and die in wars. "Expressing our feelings like women" is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy down the list of priorities.

Also, since you're so enamored with the idea of male nurses, what about female garbage collectors or bomb disposal experts? Why aren't feminist campaigns underway to make sure 50% of bomb disposal experts are female?

She was giving men both respect and fairness

By blaming teh patriarchy? Lol.

she doesn't have to be a man to talk about masculinity and societal expectations of males.

No. But she may want to listen to the "lived experiences" of the 90 or so percent of men who reject feminism. Or the 80 or so percent of women who reject feminism.

[–]pattyice11 -1 points0 points1 point 9 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Your comeback against my clarifying of her comments that you misinterpreted is to bring up a class in australia? Really?

I didn't say that nowhere is the idea of toxic masculinity being spread and taught. I said that wasn't what she was saying in this particular thread. You and third wave feminists seem to have in common the complete inability to possess the slightest bit of nuanced thought.

I used the example of nurses because that's an example she used. Again, I was discussing a conversation in this thread. Of course it's not the only disproportional field. Nor do I think it's a bad thing for a field to be naturally disproportionate. For example, just because I acknowledge the natural inclination of females to pick something outside of STEM fields, despite being encouraged pick them as of late, doesn't mean I think that if a female comes along who is both inclined and qualified she shouldn't be considered for a job in said field.

[–]LucifersHammerr 5 points6 points7 points 9 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]bufedad 4 points5 points6 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[+]inconspicuouscookie 9 years ago [recovered] (4 children) | Copy Link

I don't think anyone would disagree with you. In fact you made a lot of good points that MRA's talk about.

I may be wrong but the picture is not saying "it doesn't exist" but is saying that it's not what feminist make it out to be. From my point of view, feminism says that being a "man" is automatic privilege, that our lives are full of sunshine and rainbows. That we have everything handed to us and our lives are easy.

They never stop and acknowledge the disadvantages that men may have. Whenever you try to bring up your own struggles they discredit you because your a man and patriarchy.

[–]withoutamartyr 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[+]inconspicuouscookie 9 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

"I'm not sure feminism denies men's problems"

I don't know, banning a documentary ( The Red Pill) about Men's issues seems like they are dismissing it.

You're right, in theory they would be Allies.

I've never heard of " The mask you live in" or "The red pill" being promoted by "feminist." If feminism is for equality, wouldn't they talk about both issues equally?

What about the whole "Mattress Girl" ordeal, she went big with feminist news yet she was found guilty of lying. She was given an award. An award? Why would you give someone an award that discredits your "movement."

Thanks for the documentary suggestion, I'll be checking it out. I'll also be on the look for these scholarly circles and respected feminists.

[–]LucifersHammerr 12 points13 points14 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]TearShitDown 2 points3 points4 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]CaptSnap 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Things like not having close relationships with other men (its not friendship, it's "bromance", because intimacy among friends can't be accepted without couching it in layers of irony), not expressing feelings in any meaningful way, not crying, being aggressive and generally "alpha".

This really is the perfect feminist response. The problems plaguing men are because of their stifled emotional outlets. Of all the problems plaguing men...sentencing disparity, incarceration rates, prison treatment, rape, suicide, academic failure, unemployment, lifespan, bodily integrity, homelessness, I cant think of any way being more emotional is going to do a damn thing. But for some reason feminists do...why is that? Im not being snarky I really want to know?

Like for example...just one example...on April 14th of 2014 Boko Haram raided a school and abducted some 254 girls and the Western World lost its mind. Bring back our girls, remember? So why did the west lose its mind here and not....Oh I dunno when they burnt 60 boys alive just a month prior?

Was it the larger number of victims? maybe... or maybe its because the victims were girls?

I think its because men suffer an empathy gap. To be succinct nobody gives a shit about men. Did you see Michelle holding up a sign stop burning our boys? No you did not. When Oprah asked Michelle at the "United State of Women Summit" what she thought men attending could do to help did she say anything about tackling equality as equals ? NO, she told men to be better. Theres no State of Men Summit, just like theres no white house council on men and boys. The president had some pretty good advice for men though To be fair I think Hillary's initiative to introduce lighter sentencing for women and women only because of their "unique needs" would have really gone far to fighting sexism no shit

Women and women's issues are front page issues. Nobody wants to hear about men's problems and they certainly dont want to raise a finger to stop boys being burned alive.

Lets just have some science. Women like Women more than Men like Men or maybe youre a laymen Women are Wonderful

Youre a feminist. You must genuinely believe in this patriarchy. How much emotional outlet kumbaya bullshit do you think is going to make society give a shit about men and men's problems?

OR which of the handful of institutional problems I listed do you think crying or any of that other sideline bullshit is going to fix for men?

The short answer is Feminism...thats big capital F feminism, has NO answer for men because they do not give a shit about men and they know no one else does either.

Thats why alot of the problems you mentioned men facing arent the result of the mysterious patriarchy...they're the result of actual feminists!

police assuming the man is the perpetrator and not the victim

The Duluth Model based on academic feminism, the most widely promulgated domestic violence model in the US created that. They literally believe that when women are violent they do so from a place absent of power and so its not abusive but basically a cry for help...whereas a man is always abusive. This is TOTALLY A FEMINIST INVENTION

many men face a stacked deck in custody battles

Tender Years Doctrine Men used to get custody, feminists wanted custody. Women get custody. FEMINIST

God forbid, rape, the fear of appearing somehow weakened or lessened prevents them from coming forward about it.

This is so far removed from reality thats its laughable. Men dont report domestic violence because when they do they are either ridiculed or arrested themselves

From the article (emphasis mine):

There has been little research on responses to male victims of intimate partner violence, in part because agencies refuse to fund such research. For example, the U.S. Department of Justice solicitation of proposals for Justice Responses to Intimate Partner Violence and Stalking (p. 8) stated “What will not be funded: 4. Proposals for research on intimate partner violence against, or stalking of, males of any age or females under the age of 12.” In the few studies done, many men report that hotline workers say they only help women, imply or state the men must be the instigators, ridicule them or refer them to batterers’ programs. Police often will fail to respond, ridicule the man or arrest him. (Cook 2009)(Douglas and Hines, 2011)

Thanks feminists!

Now supposing for a moment that feminism actually played a role in fucking men....which you dont have to accept even after learning about the Duluth Model and how widespread it has become and what effect it has had on men....what would you suggest men do? Which of the things academic feminists and yourself listed as holding men back are going to help the situation?

Academic feminism has allegedly been working on how to help men for about fifty, sixty years now. Their best strategy is for men to cry more. Thats real gravitas right there.....so much empathy and so little hate amirite?

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oh good, more stupid sign shit without a source.

but it supports the narrative, so TO THE TOP

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While women who might have just escaped physical & sexual abuse from males in their life might not be comfortable sharing the same environment.

If this were true, then that the split would be 50/50, but more men would be in shelters and more women on the streets.

It does not explain why men make up 70% of the homeless.

Edited to add:

It's also extremely ironic, considering how the original post is being used by many in this thread. As well as the point the female who took picture in the first place was making.

That's because you don't understand the point the female who took the picture is making in the first place.

Feminism argues that the world is run by men for men. If this were true, why would there be services helping women, but not men. If the world was run for men, then if men needed something, it would be provided and women would be left out in the cold.

It's just one more thing that blows patriarchy theory (theory is generous... in scientific terms it's not even qualified to be a hypothesis) away.

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There's no communication with a group that hates men that much and will not consider the possibility that they aren't 100% right about everything. A group that drafted and lobbied for witch hunts like Title IX and VAWA, which created and maintains the popular #killallmen twitter, which decrees that all men must be taught not to rape, ergo all men are inherently rapists, which calls masculinity toxic, which claims testosterone makes us violent when women are in actual fact more likely to commit domestic violence, which perpetuates myths like the pay gap and 1 in 4 stats, and which conveniently dismisses any call for rational discussion as misogyny.

Feminist women abused me viciously as a child for being male. I know firsthand how evil these women are and how little sway facts, logic and calls for civility have with such hateful people. Trust me, you'll have a more productive discussion with a brick wall. Their hate movement must be fought, there is no other way.

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Nazi Germany is historically important too. As is slavery, and certainly a lot of wars. Important in human history doesn't necessarily mean something was good.

If you're going to go back to women's suffrage, then there were already suffragISTS out there fighting for women's right to vote. Suffragettes partook in acts of terrorism as well. And not all women wanted the right to vote, and not because they had internalized misogyny or some such nonsense.

Just because something has been repeated ad nausem as great or once great, doesn't make it truth. And the fact that suffrage resulted in an unequal situation of voting rights in the US, that's hardly a win for equality. Men still have to sign up for the draft in order to be allowed their "right" to vote. Meanwhile, women have no strings to their right to vote. Just turn 18, there ya go, ready to register. Women's fear of being drafted was one of the reasons they opposed getting the right to vote, but lucky for those women they got special privileges instead.

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[–]bufedad 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (29 children) | Copy Link

Actually it's 44% women 56% men as victims of domestic violence.

But don't let that stop you.

Furthermore, the greatest incidence of domestic violence is reciprocal (meaning both are violent). The greatest indicator of whether a woman will be the victim of domestic violence, is whether or not she's been violent in past relationships (not whether her partner has).

I don't need feminism because these are statistics, from right now, with feminism

A feminist opened the first domestic violence shelter for women. She realized that the women were just as violent as the men and wanted to accept battered men as well (from the beginning) and was locked out of her own shelter, hounded by feminists, and received death threats.

Feminism isn't the cure, it's the cancer keeping it going.

Don't hit women? Don't hit anyone. Teach women not to be abusive, and you'll immediately make them safer. Feminism won't do that, because women are the victim... always.

[–]Darktidemage 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago* (28 children) | Copy Link

A feminist opened the first domestic violence shelter for women. She realized that the women were just as violent as the men and wanted to accept battered men as well Feminism isn't the cure, it's the cancer keeping it going.

based on what you said this problem is some violent women - the cure is still also feminism. Note "a feminist" is the person that stepped up with a cure?

The "furthermore" you gave is evidence against your position. The greatest incidence is reciprocal? ok. So if we factor that out completely and only pay attention to cases where the man abuses the woman or the woman abuses the man what do the new numbers look like?

You're taking 56% and 44% and then subtracting an EQUAL reciprocal out of each.

So no matter what we subtract: 10% 20% 30% from both sides... what we get is a more unequal percentage wise distribution where it's more skewed toward women being the predominant victims.

[–]bufedad 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (27 children) | Copy Link

[–]Darktidemage 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (26 children) | Copy Link

[–]bufedad 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (25 children) | Copy Link

[–]Darktidemage 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (24 children) | Copy Link

[–]bufedad 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (23 children) | Copy Link

[–]Darktidemage 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (22 children) | Copy Link

You didn't provide a link. You don't seem to know how sourcing something works. Do I just trust you or do I have to go dig to try to find that one detail somewhere?

It's weird the CDC says

• Women had a significantly higher lifetime prevalence of severe physical violence by an intimate partner (24.3%) compared to men (13.8%). • Approximately 2.7% of women and 2.0% of men experienced severe physical violence in the 12 months preceding the survey

Stalking by an Intimate Partner • Women had a significantly higher lifetime prevalence of stalking by an intimate partner (10.7%) compared to men (2.1%). • Women had a significantly higher 12-month prevalence of stalking by an intimate partner (2.8%) compared to men (0.5%).

I read that here: https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/pdf/cdc_nisvs_ipv_report_2013_v17_single_a.pdf

and In that article if you search for reciprocal it mentions a study so I checked that one out. it's interesting.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19774764

It discusses how you can classify domestic violence into "common couple" which is reciprocal vs "intimate terrorism" which is one directional.

Maybe your theory is correct that 70% of non-reciprocal abuse was female perpetrated - i'd love to see a stat- but I question even if it's true how critical that stat is.

[–]bufedad 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago* (21 children) | Copy Link

You didn't provide a link. You don't seem to know how sourcing something works. Do I just trust you or do I have to go dig to try to find that one detail somewhere?

I've provided it elsewhere in this thread. I'm not going to keep reposting it over and over (especially for posts that are from my phone).

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1854883/

Here you go... enjoy

From the NIH

In nonreciprocally violent relationships, women were the perpetrators in more than 70% of the cases.

Reciprocity was associated with more frequent violence among women (adjusted odds ratio [AOR]=2.3; 95% confidence interval [CI]=1.9, 2.8), but not men (AOR=1.26; 95% CI=0.9, 1.7)

and reciprocal intimate partner violence was associated with greater injury than was nonreciprocal intimate partner violence regardless of the gender of the perpetrator

Clearly, the data suggests that the best way to keep women safe in domestic violence situations is to teach them not to hit men.

We won't do that, because women are victims and holding them responsible for their actions wouldn't be nice.

Edited to add:

You'll notice that when the violence goes two ways, the women are more violent, but not the men.

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[+]Emilytea14 9 years ago [recovered] (10 children) | Copy Link

Feminism is literally all about equalizing the playing field, and part of that is reinforcing the support systems for males that have traditionally been deemed unnecessary because "real manly men don't need a shoulder to cry on". This girl needs to do her goddamn homework.

[–]bufedad 1 point2 points3 points 9 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

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[–]bufedad 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

It speaks about the system and how it can easily enable racism, how the accountability is not to a high enough standard, and the issues POC tend to experience more of, regardless of economic brackets.

Which is interesting, because people of color don't. Men of color, and white men do. Men experience these.

55 of the 1023 people killed in 2016 (by police) have been women... 34 of those... white.

WOC were killed less than white women by police.

968 men have been killed by police in 2016...470 of those were white.

You don't hear anything about them. Why don't you hear anything about them from BLM? Because BLM is a racist movement.

POC are not abused by police, MOC and white men are.

Feminism is not against all men

Feminism named it's bogeyman after men (Patriarchy) and it's hero movement after women (Feminism). So... in this you're wrong.

It speaks about gender roles, gender inequality, power structures through a lense of gender, etc.

gender roles it wants to force men into, and free women from.

Gender inequality it wants to increase on men, but free women from.

power structures it wants to maintain for the sake of women.

It's not "men are evil. Masculinity is evil."

"Toxic Masculinity"... so... again... wrong.

[–]IrateGandhi 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Population differences is a factor you haven't brought up. Harrassment is a factor you haven't brought up.

A POC would make the logical deduction that if they are stopped more often, harrassed more often, & arrested more often then they must be killed more often. It's not as simple as "well they die less so get over it."

It's not just black men, either. There are many cases where the victims were female.

There is a difference between an ideology and a gender. Patriarchy does not equal men.

Feminism does not say it wants to free women by binding men. If you free one, the other must be freed in the process. Both roles must exist for either to be defined. Without the other, there is no need for separation of the two.

There is a difference between the term toxic masculinity and masculinity. Toxic Masculinity refers to the negative expectations men are given, like not being able to express emotions, repression, inability to not consent, men are unable to be victims of abuse, etc. Those things are toxic. The vast majority is not saying "masculinity is toxic." They are saying "there are toxic parts to masculinity."

[–]bufedad 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Population differences is a factor you haven't brought up. Harrassment is a factor you haven't brought up.

Nope, I haven't. Population differences don't account for the extremely low rates of deaths of women (especially women of color).

It's not just black men, either. There are many cases where the victims were female.

No, we've already covered this. Only 55 females have been killed by police this year, and of those, only 21 were women of color. That's 2%

There is a difference between an ideology and a gender. Patriarchy does not equal men.

Really, this is the most ridiculous argument that you could make. You could point out the way (that doesn't exist) that patriarchy doesn't really mean men... but instead you just try to make me believe your point without proof.

Feminism does not say it wants to free women by binding men.

No feminism tries to bind men in the name of freeing women. Actions vs words.

[–]Emilytea14 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Ah yes, I forgot how a couple idiots that label themselves a member of something are representative of the entire movement and its' values. Just like how the men's rights movements are full of a bunch of Elliot Rodger's, right?

In all seriousness, anybody that thinks that feminists aren't fighting for equality needs a bit of historical context- feminists have always been strongly opposed, usually by men, even when they were INARGUABLY fighting for what you cannot deny is equal treatment. Basic things like the right to vote. Along the way they developed support systems for victimized women- systems that hadn't existed in any form prior. There was a very clear and undeniable imbalance in power between the genders, so of course these would be targeted towards the unprivileged group.

Now that things are (sort of) equalizing, feminists are branching out the support systems that they invented and addressing the very real issues men face that have become more evident in recent years.

So why have they only recently become more evident? Because while feminism was doing it's thing for feminine empowerment, men stood around watching their issues go unaddressed. If they did decide to take action for anything, it was usually a movement to demean and undermine the actions that feminists were taking, seeing it as a personal affront that women were seemingly getting all of this sudden privilege while men got nothing. They saw feminists standing up and getting shit done and instead of doing equally great things for men's rights, they decided to demonize feminism.

Now men's rights groups are, at their core, fighting for the exact same things as feminists, but all those negative pre-existing beliefs about feminists are twisting perceptions about feminism to the point where OF COURSE you're going to focus on the shitty feminists that misunderstood feminism and did shitty things. "Typical feminist", right? No. Wrong. Take a look at the accomplishments of feminism- changing the FBI's definition of rape to include men, equalizing the legal drinking age in the USA for men and women, fighting to be allowed on the front lines in the military to reduce the burden on men, working to increase the amount of paid leave men get to spend time with their children... but yeah. Keep focusing on a couple shitty people.

[–]bufedad 0 points1 point2 points 9 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Just like how the men's rights movements are full of a bunch of Elliot Rodger's, right?

Elliot Rodger never had any affiliation with the Men's Rights movement. None, zero, zilch, nada.

Ah yes, I forgot how a couple idiots that label themselves a member of something are representative of the entire movement and its' values.

Couple of idiots? The largest feminist group in the US opposes shared parenting. The only feminist organizations involved in men's rights are fighting against it... So... just a couple of idiots... you prove it.

Basic things like the right to vote.

Women won the right to vote. Men don't have that right. We have the privilege of voting as long as we sign up for the selective service (draft). Women have a right that men do not have.

Along the way they developed support systems for victimized women- systems that hadn't existed in any form prior.

Yes, they did. The first domestic violence shelter for women was opened by Erin Pizzey. She quickly realized that women were as violent as men, and wanted to open the domestic violence shelter up to male victims as well. She was kicked out, received death threats, and hounded by feminists. Those feminists working for equality.

Now that things are (sort of) equalizing, feminists are branching out the support systems that they invented and addressing the very real issues men face that have become more evident in recent years.

Umm... no. They fought against funding for the only domestic violence shelter for men in Canada, and hounded the man running it to the point where he committed suicide. Fuck you for trying to rewrite history.

Because while feminism was doing it's thing for feminine empowerment, men stood around watching their issues go unaddressed.

Quite the contrary. Before feminism hitting your wife was illegal, so was hitting your husband. Both had swift legal penalties. Thanks to feminism, hitting your husband will end with your husband in jail. We've got to walk that back towards the equality we already had.

fighting for the exact same things as feminists

Feminists are also fighting gender biased laws written by feminist organizations that unfairly discriminate against men? Who knew? /s

I mean.. it's like you are actually completely ignorant of men's issues and just assume feminism is good.

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Title	Interesting
Author	GallowBoob
Upvotes	8650
Comments	482
Date	December 13, 2016 10:19 PM UTC (9 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/5i6mz9/interesting/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/interesting.935888 https://theredarchive.com/post/935888

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