This sub is overlooking serious issues relating to men's rights in favour of bitching.

IMULTRAHARDCORE · 2014-09-03T11:33:54+00:00

Note that this is still just a subreddit on reddit. For as much activism as is promoted here...that is not the subs only purpose. If you want to be an activist go right ahead but yes a lot of people come here just to complain. It would be nice if they separated more onto /r/mensrants but I'm not going to be a dick to someone venting because for some people this is the only place they get a chance to really share what they think and let off some steam.

notnotnotfred · 2014-09-03T13:18:51+00:00

All I can say is that I didn't see the Barnardo's story for whatever reason.

MaestroLogical · 2014-09-03T09:30:01+00:00

I think the main reason for the sheer amount of 'look at this fem being stupid' posts are due to the cultural mindset we are fighting. It's all well and good to champion laudable causes, but if society has been conditioned to not even pay attention in the first place, we're all just shouting into the wind.

Until society wakes up to the conditioning and starts to shake it off, en masse, we will continue to expose the 'movement' for what it has become, for that is the only way we will ever be taken seriously. We have to shake society out of it's brainwashed state before we'll be given the voice to tackle the issues you raise. The feminist movement itself, had to do this in the start, before they'd be taken seriously when citing stats. That is why the 'real' issues get overlooked in favor of 'whining'. Because when we attempt to debate issues, armed with shelves full of reports/studies/statistics, we get slammed down and neckbearded for no reason other than that is how society has been conditioned to treat us. We have to combat the source of the problem, before treating the symptoms, otherwise the infection will simply re-appear again and again.

DougDante · 2014-09-03T13:00:24+00:00

Upvotes on this sub don't really have any real world impact.

The latest action opportunity deals with the fact that 1 in 6 boys are sexually abused, they're afraid to come forward, the discrimination they face, and statements that they're not given equal access during human trafficking investigations, among many other issues (there are so many things to cover that it can degrade the quality of the actions).

Action Opportunity: Illegal Discrimination Against Boys and Men Victims Continues Nationwide This Labor Day Weekend 2014

Frankly, very few people responded, and you, /u/vaselinepete , did not indicate that you took the simple action of sending an e-mail..

If you want us to address this issues constructively, one way is to respond to action opportunities.

Another is to make your own action opportunities.

I would welcome both.

Also, you may believe that the action opportunities don't have a real world impact. I would say that they have an eroding effect on institutionalized misandry :

Ongoing Action Report: USDOJ Office of Violence Against Women recently released much delayed FAQS on the 2013 VAWA Non-Discrimination Provisions, possibly in response to our action opportunities.

amkftb · 2014-09-03T16:15:39+00:00

In Iceland this subject was taken up about 10 years ago.

Instantly every one who had anything to do with sexual violence jumped to, the non profits hired male shrinks, the emergency rape team at the ER changed their protocols to include how to receive adult male victims of sexual assault. (all children under the age of 16 are automatically taken to a different facility the is created around the needs of children) I am a part of a 12 step program for sexual abuse survivors, and all groups are mixed groups, the ratio is probably 2 men for every 3 women, we all realize that in reality it is 50/50. The only place where men are not met with more understanding today than they were 10 years ago, is the police and prosecuters !

This is not supposed to be an issue that needs debate ! Those are facts and you need to write to everybody and put pressure on everybody to react !

It is not OK to slut shame women, it is not OK to portray men as sexually ravenous beasts that need not give consent !

kragshot · 2014-09-03T19:11:05+00:00

Here we go again.

This sub started up to serve two purposes; a place where men could voice their problems and vent without being censored and a clearing house for information about the MRM.

Anywhere where men try to gather to give voice to their frustration with the current dynamic has to deal with people trying to stop that from happening and trying to curtail that needed venting. Nobody likes to hear that men are angry and will often try to silence them because of issues of "image."

The original founders of this particular sub wanted this to be a place where men could give voice to their frustration at being falsely accused of rape, losing access to their children, being taken to the cleaners by a cheating wife, and other anti-male issues. Where men could openly talk about those things and not be ridiculed or silenced by those people who don't want men getting together to discuss those things.

That's what this sub was and if we lose sight of that, then we've lost sight of ourselves.

snstrsnctyslckr · 2014-09-03T15:50:32+00:00

Totally agree, for a sub that denies feminism has any real rational discourse to contribute, it certainly is overly fixated on feminists. Enough of the bottom trawling, I'm tired of seeing all the garbage that's picked up from muddy bottom of the internet. Lets have some real discourse on men's rights by having some real discourse on men's rights instead of bitching about feminists all the time.

anonlymouse · 2014-09-03T14:08:43+00:00

The MRM has gained massive amounts of support since the focus shifted to shitting on feminism. That helps more than anything else.

People are more willing to criticise feminism than to help men. Since feminism is directly opposed to men, weakening feminism indirectly helps men. The most effective thing we can do is keep attacking feminists. Make it clear how bad they are so people are ashamed of being feminists. Make it so that if a feminist says something stupid, nobody says anything in support of them.

And guess what, it's working. Friends of mine on facebook who used to post a lot of pro-feminist content have scaled back to maybe 10% because I've repeatedly attacked them on it (using well founded facts). They've changed what they say, they're now very selective in what they bring up as women's rights issues that need to be addressed, and actually think about whether it's just an effort to demonise men or if it's an issue that affects men too and they're just being ignored.

Shaming feminists is the most effective thing we can do. Once we get them to be quiet, we can start talking about the issues that actually do matter.

HoneyVortex · 2014-09-03T14:23:34+00:00

It's hard not to bitch. I support a particular men's issue: prostate cancer. Yet look how feminists have made breast cancer into a feminist issue and realize that they've also circumvented research dollars into the particular form of cancer that concerns them.

What this means is that feminists are keen to exploit the common belief that men are disposable for the gain of their gender. Where things like funding for cancer research may not be truly a 'zero sum game' because often curing one disease leads to other breakthroughs; it is a disgusting fact that feminists would seek to discredit and derail men's discussions of men's issues because of their belief in myths like "patriarchy".

Chad_Nine · 2014-09-03T19:43:58+00:00

What should we say in a thread like that? It's terrible and depressing to see society treat men and boys like shit, but there's little discussion to be had. It's terrible and it's terrible that it doesn't get nearly enough attention by society. There's only so many different ways to say that. I guess I could make a macro to auto comment that, if you like.

I might even say that the reason threads like that don't get as much attention is that they're such a goddamn depressing reminder that society doesn't give a shit.

Peter_Principle_ · 2014-09-03T11:26:37+00:00

, we need to look at what our real motivations are.

You're assuming there is no manipulative voting involved from those hostile to the idea of men having rights?

ETA: Or that whatever other variables involved in things reaching the front page weren't a factor? Karma is digital weather, sometimes the tornado of upvotes passes over your particular mobile home.

prevolution · 2014-09-03T18:27:54+00:00

Sometimes good content just doesn't get upvoted. This is reddit. Get used to it.

2014-09-03T21:18:07+00:00

First off: That bitching you talked about got us far. It gave us support. It made people snap out of their hypnosis. And since we're a rights movement and want to change things what do we need? You guessed it, support. Second: This subreddit has everything to do with men's rights and guess what: Fighting the 4th wave feminism is part of that. They are the people who appose us and prevent us from reaching our goal because our goals interfere with their goals. They lash out and take away our credibility so what do you do as a response? You take away their credibility and expose their actions and moreover, most of the problems we're facing have their origins at feminism. If you take away one problem another will rise in 3 fold. It's mopping up the rain. It has 0 use to fight problems when the source I still alive and well and ready to fight back.

Hamakua · 2014-09-03T23:50:22+00:00

There is an aspect of the ebb and flow of reddit as well as this sub that you probably don't realize that some vets know.

Anything "hardcore Men's rights" issue only gets between 30-60 upvotes. Probably about how many daily "MRAs" that understand both the importance and issues.

Anything more than about 100 upvotes have drawn in the attention of lurkers and has to be both catchy and sucinct.

Anything more than ~500 votes has broken well outside of the subreddit itself and is being upvoted by people outside of the subreddit in the normal sense.

Your post for example is being upvoted at least in part by people who don't care about men's rights or this subreddit, but enjoy seeing drama rise and seeing criticism levied against the subreddit.

Your being annoyed, offended, or frustrated with the general low voting amounts of the subreddit has more to do with your general ignorance of how the votes trend on this subforum.

Memes or short easy photo consumption that delivers a message without much mental effort, or much reading with a mainstream message that non-MRA's can agree with are some of the most successful.

vaselinepete · 2014-09-03T09:24:29+00:00

What are you talking about? Stories where women (often teachers) rape boys (often their students) and then get less than a slap on the wrist regularly make it to the top and garner a huge amount of outrage. The story you linked to was lacking in almost every respect, even the case study had no details, such as what happened to the offender.

It's bad enough that these awful things that happen to male children are ignored by the world, but when they are ignored by a sub dedicated to supporting men and boys, we need to look at what our real motivations are.

You're are fucking retard. When awful things happen to boys that are ignored by society, this sub makes a huge deal of it. Like the current major story across most manosphere subs about the rape victim forced to pay child support.

Your basically complaining that because a story that seemed to resonate particularly strongly with yourself (despite being vague and empty) didn't get a lot of attention, the whole sub is a failure, even though stories about actual abuse and failures by the legal system to bring justice (key men's rights issues) almost always get highly upvoted.

Get a grip.

dungone · 2014-09-03T13:08:40+00:00

"fuck off, concern troll"

Seconded.

If you could actually just have written a normal post without dragging a bunch bullshit drama of your own creation into it, that would have been much appreciated. Instead I had to sit here thinking of the guy going "leave Britney alone!" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHmvkRoEowc

Unenjoyed · 2014-09-03T15:54:13+00:00

And this post just adds to the pain.

jpflathead · 2014-09-03T18:20:59+00:00

I agree with you but the problem is structural and due to reddit.

When you have 80,000 diverse subscribers of different backgrounds and ages who are not all on the same page to a sub and they can all post links, you can expect outrage to float to the top.

Dnile1000BC · 2014-09-03T22:40:52+00:00

Don't forget that this subreddit is regularly brigaded by feminists groups and trolls. Particularly when factual articles are posted.

freemale101 · 2014-09-03T10:14:33+00:00

Well my 2nd last post got 648 upvotes, the post before that a measly 5 (Ha), b'fore that 231 (check my links). YET the one I posted two days ago lasted about one hour (2 upvotes) and got YANKED by the Mods!!. First time I've encountered censorship here on a 'valid' post.

Point is this is an emotional but articulate forum...but there is so much demanding our attention...and it sounds like you're 'bitching'. I think 68 upvotes here is excellent. IF you strike out (like my last post) bad luck. You simply stay the course. When you've got issues post them. State the facts. Tell YOUR truths. If its real enough it will 'work'.

headingtoshore · 2014-09-03T12:27:08+00:00

It seems to me just another face of the 'culture of centralization' that has grown in the western world.

There is only one front page, only one post can be on top of it. People like their comments to be read, even responded to, so given the ephemeral nature of reddit posts people glom on to the current top posts.

If there were a (forgive me) MRMpire on reddit, a group of subreddits dedicated to mens rights movements there would be many front pages, and many top posts.

we could have for instance

slash r slash MRMpolitics

Political stories, calls to action, analysis of candadates and proposed legislation.

slash r slash MRMdisenfranchisement

Stories about men and boys who fall through the glass floor, men and boys who are victimized in ways which, had they been female, would have been outragous, or even criminal.

slash r slash MRMculture

Video clips where a woman smacks a man and the audience laughs, internet 'he deserved it' or 'he probably enjoyed it' comments.

MRMmovies

The Hunt, Broken Flowers, Boys in the Hood, movies about the plight of men, about their struggles against injustice.

KaonPlus · 2014-09-03T16:52:15+00:00

I said this and got down voted into oblivion. W00t

warspite88 · 2014-09-03T21:22:08+00:00

lol, wonderful... so because someone didnt link this story here everything else that everyone else does in this subreddit is "bitching"

yeah, nice attempt at being a dick. just post the story yourself instead of expecting others to do it you feminist wanna be

scurvebeard · 2014-09-03T13:42:51+00:00

I'm fully aware that I'm going to get messages like "fuck off, concern troll"

Accusing people of being a concern troll can be another form of thread derailment. You're totally on point here and anyone accusing you of concern trolling is entirely misguided.

rbrockway · 2014-09-03T15:22:35+00:00

I certainly missed your original article. I've seen other good articles not get enough up votes. Sometimes it is just because the subject line doesn't catch the attention of enough people. If an article can reach a certain critical mass it will bubble to the top.

We want to shake the MRM's unfair image of only existing to complain about women and be angry about feminists?

If that's all they are saying about us then the situation has improved significantly. The claims made about MRAs are usually a lot worse than that.

Karma9999 · 2014-09-03T22:39:49+00:00

Absolutely correct. Also this is the first I've heard of that story, and I'm in the UK. What with all the Rotherham and ISIS stuff, I think it got buried.

Dalmah · 2014-09-03T22:59:49+00:00

Why don't we have a day each week set aside for the non-activism stuff.

Men's Rants Monday: Mondays will be the days we can get on our soapboxes.

Freaking Feminists Fridays: On Fridays we can post all the anti-feminists stuff we have.

This way everyone can get stuff off their chest and we can point out the hypocrisy of feminism, without that taking up the activism of the subreddit.

MRSPArchiver · 2014-09-03T08:55:52+00:00

Post text automatically copied here. (Why?) (Report a problem.)

Ithinknotttt · 2014-09-03T14:20:07+00:00

You have to understand that while most of us are concerned, there is a lot of anger over the neglect of these situations that just leads to venting. People need to vent and there isn't anything wrong with that, but I suggest to not upvote it.

TRPACC · 2014-09-03T16:14:00+00:00

Which organization to you think has been covering up and omitting the SA of boys from the narrative?

da1inchpunch · 2014-09-03T21:51:41+00:00

tl;dr Whiny subscriber is whiny

2014-09-03T23:39:51+00:00

It's the feminist shills in here that are the problem.

PerniciousActivity · 2014-09-03T16:59:10+00:00

And sadly it's the bitching that others pick up on. It's the bitching that our "feminist" friends focus on. I understand it on reddit and accept that Redford anonymity allows for and encourages it but wish some of the more mainstream men's rights sites policed the angry speech more.

Methodius_ · 2014-09-03T17:11:56+00:00

While I agree that we should try to make the majority of posts about men's rights and issues surrounding men and boys? I don't think that taking away our ability to vent is going to help. Nor is going "Here's a new sub, go post about it there". That last one seems very dismissive.

As has been said before, I feel like this place is a beacon of hope for those who are afraid to say the things they feel in the real world, for fear of repercussions. I also feel like some of the things that feminists are doing wrong need to be discussed in order for us to learn from their mistakes, as well as to have numerous ways to point out in the future that feminists aren't perfect and they do a lot of fucked up shit.

Yeah, that last one probably isn't super healthy or even all that helpful. But there is this overwhelming idea that feminists are "for equality" and that everything they do benefits everyone. And we're one of the only groups on the internet that actually discusses their shortcomings, (usually) in a somewhat civil manner.

2014-09-03T19:23:23+00:00

Because MRAs are only so different from feminists. If the issues do not directly affect or relate to us as individuals, we do not invest any personal stock. And that's a problem.

KFCNyanCat · 2014-09-03T20:02:53+00:00

Yeah. It's time for MRA to grow up from anti-feminist, and go into actual Mens' Rights.

iNQpsMMlzAR9 · 2014-09-03T22:19:03+00:00

...we want to be taken seriously, right? We want to shake the MRM's unfair image of only existing to complain about women and be angry about feminists?

So let's put a post on the front page saying to everyone coming in here that's all we do. That'll fix it.

ThePigmanAgain · 2014-09-04T00:00:33+00:00

Complains about bitching, proceeds to bitch. Oh, the irony.

MightyTaint · 2014-09-04T00:29:58+00:00

GUYS UPVOTE WHAT I THINK IS IMPORTANT

StarsDie · 2014-09-04T15:32:11+00:00

The way I see it is that this sub has a ton to offer. If I want to see a rant, I'll check out a rant posting. If I want to see some activism-oriented stuff, then I'll check out those posts. Why is this such a big deal to people? It's not as if there are literally no activism-oriented posts in here.

SilencingNarrative · 2014-09-03T13:02:03+00:00

That was an excellent article. You are right that it has it all. And the lack of interest in it is a good point.

slideforlife · 2014-09-03T13:44:54+00:00

Excellent links to an important issue. Thanks for the repost. .... but the other stuff is uncalled for. issues are brought up in an organic fashion here in cyberspace - neither is there specific criteria guaranteed to garner attention, nor does the lack thereof mark an ineptitude and/or laziness. Sometimes quantification must be accomplished through comparison - hence the degree to which feminism is taken into account.

Hanzo44 · 2014-09-03T14:35:52+00:00

I didn't see it, because it didn't get upvoted. I rarely do more than glance at what makes the front page of this sub because the posts that don't make it, in my opinion tend to get a little toxic and woman bashy. Yes, women have female privilege and want equal rights to boot. It's unfair, and as a victim of the "family" courts I sympathize. But being a matriarchy conspiracy theorist isn't going to get the movement anywhere.

graffiti81 · 2014-09-03T16:25:19+00:00

You can't sexually abuse a boy. All boys want is sex, and you can't rape the willing. Duh.

/s

EvisceratedInFiction · 2014-09-03T17:20:49+00:00

I'll make my own subreddit. With men, and bitching, and hookers!

/r/MensRightsToBitch

Icamehereto__ · 2014-09-03T18:24:06+00:00

I'm fully aware that I'm going to get messages like "fuck off, concern troll" and that's fine, I really don't care. I want the MRM to be successful, I want us to be able to make a positive mark in this world - and to do that, we need to highlight, talk about and campaign about exactly this kind of story.

Thanks for this post, I couldn't agree more. It seems like I'm fighting an uphill battle in this sub against bad reasoning and choice of issues. I get really bent out of shape about it sometimes because I feel the effort for men's issues really needs to be spent on advancing clear goals (eg. end infant-young adult circumcision) and not on bitching about feminists and their theories.

StirFryTheCats · 2014-09-03T19:40:43+00:00

The 91% upvote rate says that most of us agree with you. Let's see what that does to submission quality from now on.

alien122 · 2014-09-04T03:02:13+00:00

How about we separate the two things? It's obvious it's popular to talk about bad feminists(and I think it is because many users here were directly affected by them) so let's create a little offshoot subreddit for that while keeping major news events that further men's rights on this sub?

anilemcee · 2014-09-03T13:03:17+00:00

Examples of feminist bad behaviour/coverage are as much use as examples of chauvinist behaviour/coverage, in challenging the mindsets, i.e. NONE. This is the first time anyone has posted something worthy of my reply in this sub. Congratulations.

BullyJack · 2014-09-03T14:46:30+00:00

I'm at the point where I can't discuss anything related to feminism until mrm is seen in a better light. Yes, feminism is all fucked up and ass backwards, but it's like talking to high and mighty christians. You're getting nowhere. I want more people to talk about circumcision and the lack of a wage gap, and show positive achievements for humanity. I'm for humans first in this world. Then I'm for the mrm. I don't want to be affiliated with a hate group. We should all do our best to "be the better man" and show facts and figures and present a unified front that doesn't make us look like recent divorcees from our trophy wives. I love this sub. It's opened my eyes a ton. But hating or acting like haters is what the feminist movement does. We are here to discuss ways to get men and boys treated like proper humans and non disposable members of society worldwide. No, we will not fix all the problems. But if we could just get a few things changed that have nothing to do with women (circumcision, the draft, sexual abuse, etc), then we could look like we feel. Mens rights advocates for positive change to the way men and boys are viewed and treated in 1st,2nd,and 3rd world countries.

mamapycb · 2014-09-03T16:02:41+00:00

welcome to reddit?

VoodooIdol · 2014-09-03T17:19:28+00:00

I see a lot of people in this thread noting that this should get more attention and that we need to be done with "bottom trawling", and I agree. It's time then, gents, to stop voting that shit up. Vote up the things that matter. Spend time on the "new" page.

twenty_minutes_late · 2014-09-03T18:10:30+00:00

I've also found this sub to have many confrontational members. I've posted a few times with questions that I thought were legitimate and which I seriously wanted to discuss. Most of the responses I get are inflammatory name calling and insults about how uninformed I am. Because of this I'm pretty much just lurking now and it has also affected my willingness to participate in the MRM in the real world.

Tomis01 · 2014-09-03T21:07:24+00:00

That's what I've been saying all along - if a submission doesn't portray women in a bad light then it's not getting upvotes. The only point of this subreddit seems to be portraying women as the enemy of men.

/metoomoment

Hallegra · 2014-09-04T01:27:04+00:00

I tried to bring this up at another point but got pretty much downvoted to shit for it. I wish you the best of luck.

charliechang · 2014-09-04T06:21:03+00:00

Here's an interesting correlation....

Yesterday, OPs posts and those supporting him/her were all upvoted highly. Now, those opinions are all much, much lower if not in negative karma.

The connection?

America woke up.

My theory: American 'MRAs' are nothing of the sort, have no interest in making men's lives better and just want to come here to derail and talk about women being mean.

Just a theory though.

Candlejaok · 2014-09-03T17:41:04+00:00

This is is 90% /r/hatewomen

It's disappointing, especially being that it's probably the first place a lot of people are exposed to any group identifying with men's rights.

insaneHoshi · 2014-09-03T17:45:03+00:00

But what about teh feminisms?

wogi · 2014-09-03T22:18:23+00:00

The circle jerk is strong here.

Just like everywhere else on reddit. This isn't a community for change, it just pretends to be.

I'm not defending the sub. Quite honestly I'm not sure why I'm still subscribed. The name of the movement betrays it's purpose. These guys claim they strive for true gender equality, but call themselves men's rights activists.

This is a bunch of adult men who want an outlet to whine, part each other on the back, and circle jerk over feminists, as much as they try to convince themselves otherwise. Very little here has any redeeming value.

You aren't going to find anything meaningful here. And the subreddit won't change. You're best going elsewhere, I intend to.

N3TS3cure · 2014-09-03T13:01:24+00:00

To answer your question you have to ask yourself what kind of community is this?

Out of the ~100K users in this sub, how many are suffering from the /r/atheism disease? That is, how many of them may have been burned by feminists at some point or just had a shitty run-in with women in general? This does not breed good discussion, it breeds contempt.

On the flipside, the people who care enough to actually put forth the effort to post something are far fewer in number than the total people here. So you have people posting articles like you demonstrated, but the masses who are up/downvoting are mostly made up of people who just want to bitch and moan.

Additionally, within those people who actually care you have a disagreement on which issues are the "most important". So you may have someone who spends all their time harping on one issue - say, circumcision - which doesn't really matter as much as the larger issues like the one you posted, and they don't upvote because to them circumcision is a more important issue than sexual assault.

Title	This sub is overlooking serious issues relating to men's rights in favour of bitching.
Author	vaselinepete
Upvotes	1233
Comments	299
Date	September 3, 2014 8:55 AM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/mensrights/comments/2fcavu/this-sub-is-overlooking-serious-issues-relating-to/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/this-sub-is-overlooking-serious-issues-relating-to.1620696 https://theredarchive.com/post/1620696

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