What we are all aiming for (X-post from TrollXChromosomes)

Djeter998 · 2015-08-06T17:02:57+00:00

Hey guys! I'm a lady from TrollX/ TwoX...I know we have our differences, but I think this applies to all of us! Cheers, and I hope you gents are all having a lovely day!

Djeter998 · 2015-08-06T19:32:15+00:00

Got off to a rocky start there with "Boys, protect girls.... Destroy that myth that girls are inferior" (if they need our protection, doesn't that make them inferior?), but then the following paragraphs got back on track after that.

bougabouga · 2015-08-06T21:32:52+00:00

Don't demonize boys that enjoy masculine things aswell.

Don't demonize girls that enjoy feminine things.

I'm looking at you OP, you dirty feminist! (kidding, but seriously nice post, glad to have you here.)

Deviant_Fart · 2015-08-06T20:03:56+00:00

areyoumyspiritanimal · 2015-08-06T19:16:35+00:00

I have a lot of thoughts about this, I guess.

First, I appreciate your feelings of being able to post this here without getting a rash of abuse. Unfortunately I read a lot of comments in the vein of "As a feminist, I posted in /r/MensRights and got nothing but hateful comments", which I have rarely seen out of this sub first hand.

Second, I agree almost wholeheartedly with the sentiment behind what this is saying, but as another poster said, this shit really shouldn't be necessary....but it is.

Cue the "This is why we need feminism!" comments.

In response to that oh-so-trite comment, I will say this. I don't have a problem with feminism as an idea. I oppose it as an infallible ideology, which is how a lot of Feminists seem to treat it.

The reason for this is that I feel feminism drastically missed the mark when it comes to men and boys, even abuses them in some cases. Before you get up in arms, let's take a moment to realize that the Duluth Model was born from feminist ideology, and in turn gave birth to Primary Aggressor Theory which has criminalized countless men for being a victim.

In a lot of cases men seeking help for domestic violence are only provided resources that are aimed at the abuser! How fucking sickening is that?! It's like a woman that was raped, and is asking for help, being handed a pamphlet on how to dress appropriately. You, as feminists, would be up in fucking arms over that shit, and rightly so.

Lets take a second to realize that feminists has fought (very recently) tooth-and-nail to convince men and women that men need to be taught not to rape, which assumes that being a rapist is our default setting. The byproduct of this is ignoring/downplaying women that rape men and boys.

I could go on, but you get my point. Feminism probably has benefited men (sex positive women FTW, if you'll forgive my glibness), but this shit isn't a 0 sum game, and we can lift each other up instead of tearing each other down.

OK, enough of my rambling.

Dlklas · 2015-08-07T06:26:38+00:00

Reads text and agrees. Reads her comments sees that she believes in patriarchy theory.

Irrationality at its finest. Should have known better when TrollXChromosomes is in the title.

rudelyinterrupts · 2015-08-06T20:27:30+00:00

So, be a good person? Be a good person.

NUMBERS2357 · 2015-08-06T20:17:35+00:00

I think this comes from a good place, but I take issue with some of it. In particular, people often talk about men like the only issues they face are from being pressured to act in stereotypically "masculine" ways. And I don't think that's true, but most of the stuff on here for boys fits that category.

For me, I'm not the type to show emotions all that much. Contra what many people think, this isn't just me being influenced by the patriarchy or something, and it doesn't mean I faced no pressure over this. I've felt lots of pressure to talk about emotions more, because people treated my not wanting to as some sort of defect.

Similarly, I think boys aren't just punished by society for not wanting to be masculine - but also for living up to male stereotypes. Some that come to mind - being a nerd is undoubtedly a male stereotype, it's not a guy acting like a girl is supposed to, and it's a negative one. Boys that get suspended from school (and it's disproportionately boys) for having a toy weapon, or playing cops and robbers and fake shooting someone, are fulfilling male stereotypes. Men getting longer jail sentences than women, get them because they're seen as more masculine, not because they're failing to live up to masculine stereotypes. In school it seemed to me like teachers viewed boys with more suspicion, as potential troublemakers, or problem kids - more so the rambunctious, sports playing ones, not the quiet artsy ones.

As for the not wanting sex thing - the way liberals deal with any shat-upon group is to say the group should have a strong identity and not be afraid to say loudly they're a part of it. So for virgins, the thing they need is to fly the "virgin" flag tall, and say they're this way and proud of it, dammit! But for most guys who aren't getting any, it's not because they don't want it. Saying they should be OK with saying they don't want it isn't much help. At the same time, many people act like if you want to have sex and aren't getting anywhere, it must be because there's something wrong with you. I think many people only view unfairness through the lens of race/gender/whatever, so if you're a straight, white, male, etc, failing romantically, all that's left is you suck.

(not that saying the message on the image is bad, I just think the above should be mentioned).

Djeter998 · 2015-08-06T19:17:06+00:00

Okay, well I tried having a conversation and I keep getting downvoted no matter what I say. I'd still love to have a conversation and reach some common ground with anyone. Please feel free to PM me and we can have a friendly debate/discussion.

victorymonk · 2015-08-06T20:47:40+00:00

I think it's very good to have people from other boards and with other views to post here. Welcome!

To the point: This post confirms why I object even the most sincere and well-intent version of "feminism helps men too", and why we need separate from feminism movement. Boys don't have to be like girls, and really would be better of without girls' help in becoming "more like girls". Please!

Also to say (ok to imply) that boys and men don't show emotions is stupid. Read any poet, listen to any piece of music or art created by a man. Is THAT how not being able to express emotions look like??

Involution88 · 2015-08-07T07:06:25+00:00

Boys protect girls. Destroy the myth that women are inferior.

PICK ONE.

tectonic9 · 2015-08-07T01:18:41+00:00

Mostly don't disagree with what's presented there, other than suggesting that it's not my job to back up anyone who can't see past their own feelings. Sometimes "stop selfishly whining about minor BS" strengthens a person's sense of reality and personal agency more than "oh, if you had a bad feeling than that means other people are bad."

But more importantly, the omissions follow a really fucked up pattern. Protect (only) boys who are soft, weak, effeminate eunuchs? NO. They may need some protection, but they may need some guidance to harden up and stop wallowing in self-hatred or a special snowflake victim mentality. And why repeatedly omit the idea of standing up for masculine men? I don't share the goal of presenting soft and weak men as aspirational.

As for why you might think that promiscuous, scantily clad, or highly sexual women are deserving of protection, but that more modest or inexperienced women are not, I'll let you mull it over on your own.

baserace · 2015-08-07T04:04:35+00:00

No, that's not what 'we are all' aiming for. We're not all constrained by ideology.

Azothlike · 2015-08-08T13:20:40+00:00

This whole post is bullshit.

Call out people when they make offensive jokes.

No. Jokes are not offensive. They're jokes. Either they're funny, or they failed to be funny. If you don't think it's funny, good for you. Act offended if you want. Nothing happens.

Stand up to those who treat girls like objects

AKA, doublespeak for 'Male sexuality is the devil, don't let men express their sexual desire when it's not wanted'. You can keep this one, too. Expressing sexual desire is not treating someone like an 'object', which is the only time this doublespeak phrase is used.

Walk a girl home if she feels unsafe

Reinforcing the lie that girls are more vulnerable to crime. Men are, statistically.

Destroy that myth that women are inferior.

Except that no myth exists, and that women are generally expected to be treated equally in areas that they are not(sports, atheleticism and testosterone-built-muscle requirements in general) and superior in areas that they are equal(Academically, intellectually).

Girls, protect boys, from mean words

How about you protect them from gendered, prejudiced laws and serious issues like imprisonment and divorce courts? That'd be nice.

Boys, protect boys. Tell them they can be asexual if they want

Again, more bullshit. Men have serious issues, and bad words are not one of them. A lack of sexual desire is unusual, for men, because testosterone is a thing and guys have a lot more of it. Things that are unusual will be made fun of on the playground or around the watercooler, no matter who many pleas you make to feels and social reform. Which is why the 'guys think about the feelings' approach to activism is useless, and why you should be more interested in the legal disadvantages and gaping societal wounds men have, that the government is not interested in addressing whatsoever.

Girls, defend girls. Let girls like sex

This, again, is a ridiculous approach to human behavior. You're saying "stop making fun of girls for liking sex", instead of "stop caring if people make fun of you for liking sex", when the former isn't going to accomplish anything and the latter might.

This whole post is nonsense. We don't need this here. The olive branch is a nice attempt, but if this post is indicative of what you believe your side to be, I'm not interested in joining up with it.

The fact that your other posts are full of tumblr buzzword fallacies and boogeyman ideas, only verifies that.

rg57 · 2015-08-07T00:49:16+00:00

Structurally, this has the appearance of fairness, but ultimately it's just feminism reworded.

darkstout · 2015-08-06T18:32:52+00:00

It sounds like what "we are all aiming for" is to make boys act more like girls: more feminine, nurturing, comforting, and emotional. No thanks. What boys need are strong masculine rolemodels.

iainmf · 2015-08-07T03:05:53+00:00

I made my own version.

Boys, respect girls. Let them handle offensive jokes. Let them stand up to those who treat girls like objects. Let them walk home alone. Listen to them and tell them when they are wrong. Destroy that myth that women are helpless.

Girls, respect boys. Let him express himself his way. Stand up to those who tell boys to 'settle down'. Support the things boys enjoy. Destroy the myth that men are dysfunctional.

Boys, respect boys. Realise your bros weaknesses. Be there for your bros when they need somebody. Don't push your bros too hard. Destroy the myth that boys need to act 'gay' to be close.

Girls, respect girls. Let your sisters enjoy sex. Let your sisters wear what they want. Don't let your sisters buy in to victimhood. Destroy the myth that girls can't deal with societal pressures.

Djeter998 · 2015-08-06T19:43:19+00:00

Here's my two cents on feminism vs. egalitarianism: Feminism is equality from a women's rights perspective. Men's rights is equality from a masculine perspective. Egalitarianism is gender/race/sexual orientation-neutral. I may focus on women's rights because it's my political interest/I am a lady, AND you may focus on men's rights for the same reason on the opposite end of the spectrum. There is overlap, and in an ideal world both groups would get along, but then you have extreme feminazis who see sexism/male power in everything, and Red Pillers who hate women/think men are inherently superior, and things get complicated and messy.

ChaosRevealed · 2015-08-07T06:39:42+00:00

Until one can swap out "boy" with "girl" anywhere in that post and have the same meaning, the post is inherently discriminatory towards one or the other. Your post should've been the following:

Humans, protect your fellow humans. Support each other from discrimination and hate, and support yourselves.

copsgonnacop · 2015-08-06T18:49:21+00:00

"Walk a girl home if she feels unsafe"

Errrr... I thought walking them home is what made them feel unsafe.

onyonn · 2015-08-07T00:06:14+00:00

After reading the discussions on this post, I have a question for OP.

Have you read 'The Myth of Male Power', and if so, what did you think?

If you haven't:

In terms of non-feminist gender theory in the MRA world, it is basically required reading.

The author, Warren Farrell was actually a board member of NOW (NYC).

Unfortunately, his work was, ahem, not very well received by the feminist establishment, and was promptly declared an Enemy of the State, so to speak.

iambecomedownvote · 2015-08-07T00:22:36+00:00

Oh yay, feminism is giving us permission to be gay again.

koji8123 · 2015-08-06T19:11:22+00:00

I rather just do whatever I want. Whenever I want. I think in general the only 'rule' is try not to be a dick. And expect the same treatment if you chose otherwise.

bigray327 · 2015-08-07T00:12:46+00:00

Lost me at "boys."

User-31f64a4e · 2015-08-07T09:07:16+00:00

This includes a typical feminist covert attack on masculinity.

Call people out when they make fun of a boy for showing emotion. Stand up to those who tell boys to 'man up.' Support boys who enjoy feminine things.

Feminism's idea of helping men is to try to turn them into women. They are attempting to discourage masculinity (toxic, hegemonic, problematic masculinity.)

What if I don't want to express my feelings, or deal with idiots nattering on about their feels?
What if I need to tell someone to "harden the fuck up" because they're whinging about bullshit in stead of getting shit done?
What if reality needs to be addressed, instead of subjective experiences?

How about supporting and appreciating men on OUR TERMS, not on yours!

Honeycone · 2015-08-06T21:36:17+00:00

That's all and good, but what about defending yourself? Why the reliance and need for others to do it for you?

Globalization101 · 2015-08-06T22:03:24+00:00

This is all nice and fuzzy warm but when are feminist going to stop discrimination against men systemically. And patriarchy? Seriously? I can make a nice long list of moronic feminist claims you have a pretty big mess there.

DRMMR76 · 2015-08-06T23:14:18+00:00

Eh, not me. I fully support men being masculine and women being feminine.

thebillstone · 2015-08-06T18:31:13+00:00

Why do I get the feeling that this is a subtle criticism of the male gender from a feminist perspective? For example, men commit violence against women because they bottle up their emotions.

iongantas · 2015-08-07T02:14:57+00:00

Those are all much too specific.

A_for_Anonymous · 2015-08-07T06:10:25+00:00

I agree with most of it, though I don't think anybody needs special protection (as a general rule, prevent violence towards human beings, not just women), and that everybody needs to "man up", men and women, once they're adults. Negative emotions are stupid and won't ever solve any problem, only create them, so instead of helping guys have them, I'd help girls not have them.

logic11 · 2015-08-07T13:58:02+00:00

In my life I have faced the accusation that I am a robot because I don't show emotion much. I grew up in a very, very feminist household and was encouraged from a very young age to go counter to societal gender norms. In the end I'm just not an expressive person by nature. That is what I have been chastised for, not for being too emotional. These days that is common... The hormone responsible for crying is simply not as prevalent among men as it is among women, so we often cry less naturally, and that should also be okay. It should be about who you are being OK, not about a specific set of behaviors being okay. Also, there is lots and lots of research showing that women typically play a larger role in enforcing gender norms than men do... But I like the overall idea.

Leinadro · 2015-08-07T11:43:37+00:00

Man fuck yeah. This is the kind of stuff both sides should be all for. Helping each other out rather than bickering about some bad thing a person of a certain gender did.

Ben--Affleck · 2015-08-07T02:32:50+00:00

OP seems to be well intentioned and generally kind.

Having said that... it seems like OP hasn't really thought this through. MRAs acting like the MRM is just for men is really a position many have been forced to indulge to mirror nice feminists who think feminism (the fight for women only) and a MRM are important. But that's a load of BS.

In today's world (and probably any other time really), you can't reasonably fight for only one gender at a time. Problems, issues, responsibilities, etc of both genders interact in complex ways. This isn't like races... the two sexes are inherently tied at the hip. Equality amongst the sexes/genders can take many different shapes.

The truth is some things take the shape of a zero sum game. Representation and pay are obvious examples. So, if you look at only one sex, you're bound to find sexism where there might not be. Women make less... but men work more... and women have more disposable income... and men have more incentive to pursue higher paying fields... and men die more on the job, etc.

Is men dying more on the job due to discrimination? What about women earning less? Both of these are zero sum games, where one sex doing better makes the other one look like its doing worst, but work place deaths, hours worked and type of jobs are directly related to men earning more.

Aside from some rights issues, what's really important is to understand what's really going on, and we won't by simply focusing on one sex/gender. We are inherently linked by our need to have sex, find companionship, reproduce and nurture our children.

I'd say the best part of the MRM (IMO only) is it's attempt to reestablish an understanding of gender issues upon facts and science. And to do so, feminist propaganda needs to be countered and exposed. This might be why some here are giving you flack... you unfortunately bought into some BS. Before finding issues and fixing them, you need to try to understand men and women and how they interact on different levels in our society. First things first... you need to accept that we're all animals with some hardwired behaviors and that women and men tend to have overlapping but distinct bell curves when it comes to any trait, behavioral or psychological. As much as you might hate TheRedPill, a lot of what they focus on (and often misinterpret or exaggerate) as basis for behavior is real and it's the missing piece most feminists are lacking. We are animals... and some evo. psyc. is necessary to understand who we are, how we behave and how to administer the change you desire.

scrubbyducky · 2015-08-07T15:10:43+00:00

best thing i've read all day

Almost__Dead · 2015-08-06T22:09:43+00:00

While I agree that we should be mindful of other's feelings, most first world countries have a freedom of speech and I should be able to make jokes at anyone I want (albeit, in a group of friends) even myself or men in general.

Instead of becoming death mutes, people need to grow thicker skin and bigger middle fingers.

-TheAmazingAtheist

4benny2lava0 · 2015-08-07T03:13:17+00:00

I got the nickname in highschool because of that video. Even years later people still call me that.

Number357 · 2015-08-07T03:30:14+00:00

This is good. I'd love to see more of this from feminism, and less of things like the #HeForShe campaign (which was basically just the first paragraph without the rest). Glad to see there are at least some feminists finding common ground with us.

AFandAM · 2015-08-07T04:03:53+00:00

If only.

TomwaIvory · 2015-08-11T00:07:24+00:00

I disagree with ~30% of that post though I can tell it's well intentioned.

4benny2lava0 · 2015-08-07T02:51:31+00:00

I like it, except for the part about judging a girl on how many boyfriends she has had.

We are the summation of our decisions and each one of them was a decision.

NewAeon · 2015-08-07T02:47:49+00:00

Thank you for visiting. I hope we can continue to seek common ground.

Senno82 · 2015-08-07T14:55:30+00:00

It's not perfect - but I'd support all those things and I'm sure the lovely redditors of r/TwoXChromosones would too.

099992 · 2015-08-07T17:56:50+00:00

Girl you are brave!

RevCostanzaJaypeg · 2015-08-07T17:48:17+00:00

lol MRAs are total cucks now

redundanteater · 2015-08-06T22:07:33+00:00

I don't stand for half of that. I like traditional male and female roles. I strongly dislike seeing emotion in men. I would never seriously consider entering a relationship with a woman who had been promiscuous (even long long ago). I also don't care about the feelings of others. If others are upset, so the fuck what.

prodigyx · 2015-08-06T21:17:49+00:00

Is this seriously what /r/MensRights believes?

This has got to be a fucking joke.

I have no interest in being associated with this group any more and please keep in mind that the vast majority of men who's rights you are supposedly "fighting" for would be embarrassed and disgusted by this.

Nogoodsense · 2015-08-07T02:13:42+00:00

someone sidebar and/or sticky this.

Title	What we are all aiming for (X-post from TrollXChromosomes)
Author	Djeter998
Upvotes	1485
Comments	421
Date	August 6, 2015 4:56 PM UTC (11 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/MensRights
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/3g0v6b/what_we_are_all_aiming_for_xpost_from/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/MensRights/what-we-are-all-aiming-for-x-post-from.973851 https://theredarchive.com/post/973851

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