Abortion Mega Thread

AutoModerator · 2021-02-28T21:00:11+00:00

This sticky is to semi-relevant hot topics that may change from week to week. Let the frothy wars begin! Check out discord here if you want to chat Personal...

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And again, what does that have to do with what happens after conception?

It prevents that from ever even being a concern.

The vasectomy is also an invasive surgery that isn't actually that easy to reverse. You have a vasectomy when you know you never want to have children. Additionally women have a fuckton other less invasive birth control methods like IUD

Ok and? It’s the same as tubal ligation or hysterectomy but men have it much more easily available to prevent unwanted kids. None of those are as effective as vasectomy, tubal ligation and hysterectomy.

Yes, one has a 0.3% failure rate while the other 0.15%....-.-

Something you forgot to note. That failure rate for vasectomy is after the first year and the failure rate for BC is if it’s used absolutely perfectly and it’s fully compatible with a woman’s natural hormones. When you take that into consideration a vasectomy is much more of a sure thing.

[–]TheJim661 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]PreparationWorried333 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Allowing financial abortion would also prevent that being a concern.

Nope because the kid can still find you and if it becomes a thing it’d be restricted just as much as women’s abortion so if after the allotted amount of time(6weeks to 3 months) you change your mind about your decision you’re still stuck paying. Something you could’ve avoided with a vasectomy.

You see anyone pushing women to get tubal ligation ?

No one pushes men to get a vasectomy either. They’re not even pushed to wear condoms or use the birth control methods they do have. All the responsibility is on the woman and consequently she gets all the power as well.

Having an invasive surgery that has a good chance of permanently sterilizing you is "easily available"?

Yes because if women want to sterilize themselves they have to jump through more hoops. Men just have to be over 18 and sure of the decision. Women you have to be either over 25 or 30 depending on where you live, or married with partner consent or you have to have kids already. So yes it’s more “easily available” for men.

Chopping your balls off is even more of a sure thing!

Please don’t be facetious.

Birth control and condoms are good enough contraception methods. The overwhelming majority of pregnancies don't happen because of the 0.3% of failure rate they have.

They’re not good enough because one they’re not a sure thing and 2 people mess up using them which bumps the margin of error up even higher.

[–]TheJim662 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Nope because the kid can still find you and if it becomes a thing it’d be restricted just as much as women’s abortion so if after the allotted amount of time(6weeks to 3 months) you change your mind about your decision you’re still stuck paying.

But you had input on the decision up to the point where terminatung the pregnancy was possible. And that's whats important. After that you should be held accountable for your decision.

No one pushes men to get a vasectomy either.

Uhm... You did. Literally two comments ago.

All the responsibility is on the woman and consequently she gets all the power as well.

But it's not. The man is forced to pay for the child .What you are saying is exactly what financial abortion allows. The woman to get "all the responsibility" and thus "all the power".Now she has half the responsibility and all the power.

They’re not good enough because one they’re not a sure thing and 2 people mess up using them which bumps the margin of error up even higher.

So we go back to the " cut your balls off solution".Or just stay a virgin for life

[–]PreparationWorried334 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

But you had input on the decision up to the point where terminatung the pregnancy was possible. And that's whats important. After that you should be held accountable for your decision.

Men have that option now and they don’t use it. So it really wouldn’t make a difference.

Uhm... You did. Literally two comments ago.

Saying they have that option available is not the same as pushing or demanding them to use it. I said men have vasectomies more easily and readily available than women have tubal ligation and hysterectomies.

But it's not. The man is forced to pay for the child .

It is. The responsibility of preventing, pregnancy and what to decision to make in the event of pregnancy falls onto her. Forcing the man to pay if she keeps it is the power that comes from that responsibility.

What you are saying is exactly what financial abortion allows. The woman to get "all the responsibility" and thus "all the power".Now she has half the responsibility and all the power.

She’ll still have all the responsibility but only half the power. It will still be on her to prevent pregnancy, and decide what to do in the event of a pregnancy but she will have less power.

So we go back to the " cut your balls off solution".Or just stay a virgin for life

You don’t have to cut your balls off. . . Vasectomy and tubal ligation work just as well as that.

[–]TheJim662 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Men have that option now and they don’t use it. So it really wouldn’t make a difference.

Men have the option to decide if they want to be parents up to the point where terminating the pregnancy is possible?

Saying they have that option available is not the same as pushing or demanding them to use it.

You literally said it's a reason they shouldn't have the option to financially abort because of it.

The responsibility of preventing, pregnancy and what to decision to make in the event of pregnancy falls onto her. Forcing the man to pay if she keeps it is the power that comes from that responsibility.

Did you seriously just said you have the "responsibility" To make a decision and the "power" To make someone else pay for it?

Where can I get more "responsibilities" like that?

You don’t have to cut your balls off. . . Vasectomy and tubal ligation work just as well as that.

I don't know seems too risky. Something might go wrong with the surgery and they might still get pregnant! The nunnery is the only solution.

[–]PreparationWorried332 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Men have the option to decide if they want to be parents up to the point where terminating the pregnancy is possible?

Yeah. Even beyond that. There’s a lot of kids with no dads. They don’t have to pay child support either if the woman doesn’t know where you are or your full name. Dudes have walked out 6+ years in without having to pay child support or see the child until they choose to much later.

You literally said it's a reason they shouldn't have the option to financially abort because of it.

Which is not the same as saying men must use it. It’s fine that they don’t. However since they have the option and women don’t as easily things are fine as they are. It’s equitable.

Did you seriously just said you have the "responsibility" To make a decision and the "power" To make someone else pay for it?

They’re paying for it too. They’re just making the other party pay as well because they have no responsibility.

Where can I get more "responsibilities" like that?

Men had them in other ways but gave them up to get out of certain responsibilities.

I don't know seems too risky. Something might go wrong with the surgery and they might still get pregnant! The nunnery is the only solution.

If something goes wrong with the surgery you can sue the surgeon and get a nice check. You can’t sue your birth control company for the product not being 100% or you fucking up using it.

[–]TheJim662 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]PreparationWorried332 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

That's ILLEGAL. They are fugitives from the law.

Dodging payments is but not being a dad isn’t. Also legality only stops people who’d follow the law regardless because it aligns with their moral code. For the men that violate it, they live perfectly fine full lives. They live, work sometimes even starting whole new families while never claiming or paying a cent for the kids they didn’t want or even kids they once did want and then abandoned for whatever reason and nothing happens to them because they move away from the baby mom, she didn’t have enough info to pursue them for child support or they convinced her not to do it.

It's as easy for men to sterilize themselves as it is for women.

Nope women have to jump through more hoops as I discussed earlier.

The "responsibility" to choose? Oh please let us take that responsibility off of you.

The responsibility of contraception/pregnancy prevention, sexual selection, and dealing with the physical responsibilities/burden if accidental pregnancy occurs as well. Since, it’s the woman that has to have the abortion or go through a pregnancy. Neither are easy on the body or mind. If men could take over the whole entire process of reproduction, contraception, pregnancy and all that would be absolutely wonderful and I’d think they should have all the power in that arena as well.

Like?

Men once were completely and utterly responsible for women and consequently had complete power over the way women in their charge lived their lives. They gave up that power to give up the responsibility. Men had the power to dictate how their wife should be disciplined for displeasing him, how she spent her time, sex, how many kids she was going to give him during her fertile years, whether or not she could work, major medical and financial decisions etc. with this power came the responsibility of having to feed, clothe, house and finance the woman/women in your charge and her children that you sided. Men no longer have this power because they no longer have those responsibilities.

You'll still have to deal with the child. No no, it's too risky. Someone get me the saw.

As a man you wouldn’t have to. You could just dip like thousands before have done to kids they didn’t want.

[–]TheJim662 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Dodging payments is but not being a dad isn’t.

But we are talking about how men don't have the option to choose to be parents UP TO THE POINT WHERE TERMINATING THE PREGNANCY IS POSSIBLE.

They live, work sometimes even starting whole new families while never claiming or paying a cent for the kids they didn’t want or even kids they once did want and then abandoned for whatever reason and nothing happens to them because they move away from the baby mom, she didn’t have enough info to pursue them for child support or they convinced her not to do it.

Until someone finds out and they go to jail. That's what being a fugitive is.

In case it wasn't obvious, I'm talking about legal solutions. Otherwise I could just push the chick off the stairs and be done with it.

Nope women have to jump through more hoops as I discussed earlier.

You didn't. You just said "men can get vasectomy more easily".

Since, it’s the woman that has to have the abortion or go through a pregnancy.

And since you are the ones that make the choice, you are the ones that should finance it. Since we aren't given any choice, we shouldn't be expected to finance it. Pretty simple right?

Men once were completely and utterly responsible for women and consequently had complete power over the way women in their charge lived their lives.

How is that in anyway equivalent to the abortion example? The equivalent would be to have power over the woman and force her father to "feed, clothe, house and finance the woman".

Again, if you want power and responsibility, financial abortion offers you exactly that. You have the option of aborting the child (power) and the responsibility of paying for it if you don't.

[–]PreparationWorried332 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

But we are talking about how men don't have the option to choose to be parents UP TO THE POINT WHERE TERMINATING THE PREGNANCY IS POSSIBLE.

They do and many men choose it. They dip. Even beyond the point where abortion is permissible.

Until someone finds out and they go to jail. That's what being a fugitive is.

The men I’ve known who’ve done it never went to jail. Also if they convince the mom not to pursue child support they’re not going to jail even if someone does find out.

In case it wasn't obvious, I'm talking about legal solutions. Otherwise I could just push the chick off the stairs and be done with it.

Legality doesn’t matter. If you did that you wouldn’t be the first. There’s less violent, also legal solutions that achieve the same affect if done early enough. Certain teas and food can induce a miscarriage and it’s used by women who can’t afford abortions or if they live somewhere where it’s not accessible.

You didn't. You just said "men can get vasectomy more easily".

I did because I then went on to say how the requirements for men are that they are at least 18 and of sound mind and sure in their decision. For women this is not enough. The age varies per state but you either have to kids already or be 25 or older. Doctors are also known to be pickier about letting women sterilize themselves than men. So it’s definitely easier for men to do it.

And since you are the ones that make the choice, you are the ones that should finance it. Since we aren't given any choice, we shouldn't be expected to finance it. Pretty simple right?

Women are expected to finance it. They’re the ones that have to pay for all the abortion costs or all the medical fees associated with pregnancy and childbirth but they also have to power to pursue post-natal financial assistance from the father if they can find him. Simple right?

How is that in anyway equivalent to the abortion example?

When you have all the responsibility you have all the power. The father or husband has all the power because he has all the responsibility.

Again, if you want power and responsibility, financial abortion offers you exactly that.

It doesn’t financial abortion leaves the woman with all the responsibility and half the power.

You have the option of aborting the child (power) and the responsibility of paying for it if you don't.

Abortion is one form of a responsibility not a power, same with continuing the pregnancy. They adversely affect the woman. While getting child support benefits her because it alleviates the financial burden of having a child. So the ability to pursue child support is a power, pregnancy and abortion are responsibilities.

[–]TheJim662 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

They dip. Even beyond the point where abortion is permissible.

Which, again, is illegal.

The men I’ve known who’ve done it never went to jail. Also if they convince the mom not to pursue child support they’re not going to jail even if someone does find out.

Uhmm. Great for them? Should we base our laws on the options of outlaws?

Legality doesn’t matter.

Of course legality matters. That's what we are discussing. Legal options.

Certain teas and food can induce a miscarriage and it’s used by women who can’t afford abortions or if they live somewhere where it’s not accessible.

Which isn't something I can force the woman to take.

So it’s definitely easier for men to do it.

...In some states

Women are expected to finance it.

they also have to power to pursue post-natal financial assistance from the father if they can find him.

You see how the two are at odds with each other right?

When you have all the responsibility you have all the power.

But the woman doesn't. If she had all the responsibility, she would be the one paying for it. Like I said, the equivalent would be for me to have all the power over a woman's choices but force her or her father to pay for it.

Abortion is one form of a responsibility not a power, same with continuing the pregnancy.

Abortion is a power. It alleviates her of having to go through with a pregnancy and all that entails as well as having to raise a child.

[–]PreparationWorried332 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Which, again, is illegal.

It’s only illegal if she put you on child support. If you left before she could do this, you talked her out of doing so, or she did not have enough of your information to do so then it’s perfectly legal.

Of course legality matters. That's what we are discussing. Legal options.

It really doesn’t and anyway leaving is a legal option. It’s only illegal if she puts you on child support.

Which isn't something I can force the woman to take.

You don’t have to force her.

In some states

In most states because even in the states where the requirements are the same on paper there’s still medical bias.

You see how the two are at odds with each other right?

No? Women’s financial contribution is the default every step of the way of reproduction. Men’s is only post-natal and women have the privilege/power of choosing whether or not to get it from him if she knows who he is.

But the woman doesn't. If she had all the responsibility, she would be the one paying for it. Like I said, the equivalent would be for me to have all the power over a woman's choices but force her or her father to pay for it.

She is the one paying for it. Men aren’t legally required to pay for an abortion or anything prenatal, women are. Post natal whether the dad is financially involved or not the mom still has to pay. Also what you said was the case. Dowries and men having control over their wife’s inheritance in marriage. You could also force your wife to work if you wanted and you were the one in control of her earnings because she couldn’t have a bank account without you. Men had all the responsibilities and all the power.

Abortion is a power. It alleviates her of having to go through with a pregnancy and all that entails as well as having to raise a child.

It’s not a power it’s a responsibility. She still has to go through the financial and physical setbacks. Pregnancy and abortion are both responsibilities just different types.

[–]TheJim662 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

If you left before she could do this

Would still be illegal.

she did not have enough of your information to do so then it’s perfectly legal.

Again illegal.

It’s only illegal if she puts you on child support.

She can put you on child support whenever she wants and she has incentive to do so. You have no input on the matter.

You don’t have to force her.

So I have to be beholden to her whims. That's the issue.

In most states because even in the states where the requirements are the same on paper there’s still medical bias.

So you say.

Women’s financial contribution is the default every step of the way of reproduction. Men’s is only post-natal and women have the privilege/power of choosing whether or not to get it from him if she knows who he is.

So she isn't actually financing her choice. She is financing a part of it. The part that is infinitely cheaper btw.

Post natal whether the dad is financially involved or not the mom still has to pay.

Nope, she can just drop it in a police station. Even if she doesn't she pays A PART of it.

Dowries and men having control over their wife’s inheritance in marriage.

Diaries were customs. They weren't laws.

You could also force your wife to work if you wanted

No you couldn't.

She still has to go through the financial and physical setbacks.

She has to go through them anyway because she got pregnant. The abortion gives her the POWER to alleviate the consequences of her actions and lessen the financial and physical toll. It's not a responsibility by any sense of the word.

But hey I'm feeling generous. Let us share that responsibility😂. Allow financial abortion but force the man to pay for her abortion.

[–]PreparationWorried331 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Would still be illegal.

It wouldn’t be. The mother has to pursue you for child support. If she never does because she can’t or chooses not to then it’s perfectly legal for a man to not pay. You only get in trouble for not paying what you owe. If you owe nothing there’s no legality issues

Again illegal.

Again legal.

She can put you on child support whenever she wants and she has incentive to do so. You have no input on the matter.

And if she never does because she can’t or chooses not to, you not laying is perfectly legal. You don’t have to force her.

So I have to be beholden to her whims. That's the issue.

The fact that you have less biological and social setbacks in the reproductive process balances this out.

So you say.

So research says. You can look into yourself. Race also affects this as well. It’s interesting check it out.

So she isn't actually financing her choice. She is financing a part of it. The part that is infinitely cheaper btw.

She’s financing it. The only thing the man contributes is a smart part of the child raising expenses if she chooses to put him on child support. She’s financing everything before that and the other half or more of the child raising expenses.

Nope, she can just drop it in a police station. Even if she doesn't she pays A PART of it.

She still had to pay for everything up until that point. So she pays for the choice regardless of how things play out.

Diaries were customs. They weren't laws. Might as well have been. The other things I mentioned were laws though. Having control of your wife’s finances and inheritances, any money she earned from working etc.

No you couldn't.

Yes you could because during the point it history where it was legal to “punish” and “discipline” your wife you could easily force her to submit to your whims.

She has to go through them anyway because she got pregnant.

Exactly! Which is what I’ve been saying. Women have all the responsibility. So thats why they have all the power.

The abortion gives her the POWER to alleviate the consequences of her actions and lessen the financial and physical toll. It's not a responsibility by any sense of the word.

Abortion is a responsibility because it’s a financial and physical setback. A power is a privilege that benefits you. Abortion isn’t completely beneficial it’s just the lesser of two evils depending on a woman’s moral views.

But hey I'm feeling generous. Let us share that responsibility😂.

I wish. If men were the ones that got pregnant, had the burden of contraception placed more on them and dealt with the social stigma of abortion or single motherhood that would be wonderful. If I could wave a wand and switch men and women’s biological roles in this regard I’d do it in a heartbeat and I would completely be fine with paying child support to a man that I accidentally knocked up too.

Allow financial abortion but force the man to pay for her abortion.

How would this be enforced? If he doesn’t pay tax payers do? Or would he go to prison for not paying the abortion cost? How would this look in reality. Honestly I’m sure men would dodge this like the dodge child support so this would still leave women with all the responsibility but then no power.

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And yet in this very thread I have multiple women whining about how hard it is to get an abortion in the US 🤷‍♂️

Women have to sacrifice their natural hormonal balance and their physical safety to get fucked casually, that’s an imbalance right there.

No they don't. Condoms are a thing.

They don't have to sacrifice their physical safety.

I also don't see what either of those things have to do with the law.

What’s stopping men from getting financial abortion is the fact that it’s clearly at the expense of women and children, which most people are never going to be ok with.

What's stopping men from getting financial abortion is that the current situation blatantly favors women and women are the majority of voters and a very homogenous group that also has heavy influence (because pussy) on men too.Same reason laws keep getting more and more favorable towards women.

It's not in any way worse for children than regular abortion is.

most women would probably walk away from men who want financial abortion, because wannabe deadbeats dry up pussy

Nah, they would happily do it for Chad. You overestimate how much power women have over the men they desire.

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You can’t prove a negative, geyges. You know that

This is where it’s biologically unfair, but that’s the bottom line biology of it. The father will never be in a position to know that she’s pregnant before she does (that episode of Scrubs aside, where she threw the pregnancy test away early). You may never actually know she was pregnant in the first place if she decides to abort it anyhow

This is the fundamental flaw in this entire situation. And a big reason why a lot of women are very opposed to time limits for no good reason - it’s not unheard of for women not to know in a timely manner

This is also a small part of why I support financial abortion (the primary reason being that it’s fair to men) - when men come up against the actual consequences of these meaningless time limits, they’re going to see how arbitrary and unfair they are in practice. We may actually have a shot at getting them rolled back to more reasonable limits

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I’ve had a period for 28 years, and have literally never had a headache or a cramp. In fact, while many women get cramps, I’ve never heard a woman complain about headaches. “Mood swings” happen, but you do realize that the hormonal fluctuations that causes them happen in pregnancy too, right? Pregnant women are actually known to have severe mood swings

They aren’t bleeding like normal. They have light spotting and no other symptoms

My flow is so light that I could free bleed every month if I wanted to (and had zero concern for hygiene) (I don’t free bleed, for the record). My PMS manifests as increased levels of anxiety, which I also get with big deadlines around work, periods when I don’t sleep well, etc.

You literally can’t tell the difference

And, buddy, stop making me want to use “mansplaining.” I hate that term, but that’s exactly what you’re doing - trying to mansplain what periods and pregnancy are like to women who have actually experienced it

Shut the fuck up, sit down, and let women tell you what the thing you’ve never experienced is like. You have no lines in this play

Talk about men’s rights, fathers rights, etc. Don’t try to tell women what their periods are like

[–]TheJim661 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I’ve had a period for 25 years, and have literally never had a headache or a cramp

You haven't. Other women have.

“Mood swings” happen, but you do realize that the hormonal fluctuations that causes them happen in pregnancy too, right? Pregnant women are actually known to have severe mood swings My flow is so light that I could free bleed every month if I wanted to (and had zero concern for hygiene) (I don’t free bleed, for the record). My PMS manifests as increased levels of anxiety, which I also get with big deadlines around work, periods when I don’t sleep well, etc.

If all these stars align and you can't tell you haven't had a period the last few months, the solution is pretty simple. When you have suspicions, take a test.They are cheap and take little to no time.The man shouldn't have to pay for it either way.

Shut the fuck up, sit down, and let women tell you what the thing you’ve never experienced is like.

Nah

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[–]TheBookOfSeil1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Even if she gives the child up for adoption she still has to pay all the medical costs for the entire pregnancy.

Well duh. Medical services aren't free.

If she can't abort the pregnancy than why shouldn't the father have to split the cost of it with her?

For the same reason that the father doesn't have to split the cost of the abortion with her.

Going to the doctor is helping take care of his child and make sure it's healthy.

This argument is already assuming that the father does not want the baby either, so why would they care about the child being healthy if they don't want it nor want any part of paying for the bills?

Prenatal care is important and you can't use the "your body" argument if you don't want abortion to be allowed anymore.

Yeah we can. It just seems like it doesn't sound as good when its working against you, right?

[–][deleted]1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You can use the "your body" argument IF you are also pro-choice, which I don't believe you are. I 100% agree that men should not have to help pay for medical costs of pregnancy and they should be allowed to financially abort from ever having to pay child support at all... but ONLY if abortion stays legal. The point is that if you make abortion illegal, THEN men shouldn't be able to back out of the costs because women wouldn't be able to either. If I'm being forced to carry a baby to term and pay for it than he should be forced to be involved too. If I have an option to back out than so should he. It should be equal. I'm all about men being able to back out of parenthood before the child is born, as long as you're pro-choice. I'm okay with paying for my own abortion right now (if I wanted one) because it's entirely my choice to have one. If I was being FORCED to carry the pregnancy, that's very different

[–]TheBookOfSeil1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You can use the "your body" argument IF you are also pro-choice, which I don't believe you are.

"Hey, you can't use our own arguments against us. That's not how you're supposed to play the game!" Pffft. Nope. Not how this works. I can use your own arguments to point out double standards and hypocrisy too.

I 100% agree that men should not have to help pay for medical costs of pregnancy and they should be allowed to financially abort from ever having to pay child support at all... but ONLY if abortion stays legal.

So you only agree to things on the condition that your benefit stays in place. Got it. Quite hard to concur though because men aren't really given the option to financially abort while women still have their benefit/option to abort. If we can have it one way, we can have it the other way, too.

The point is that if you make abortion illegal, THEN men shouldn't be able to back out of the costs because women wouldn't be able to either.

We're not really able to back out of the costs, though, and nobody is obligated to pay for someone else's medical bills unless a judge actually orders it. It's still "your body, your bills."

If I'm being forced to carry a baby

Man..... y'all need to stop using that word. Nobody is "forcing" you to carry anything. It is stuck inside of your body, and just because someone won't reach in and pull it out for you doesn't mean that anyone is "forcing you to carry a baby." This is probably one of the dumbest claims in the whole pro-choice movement that only serves to shift the blame away from the women who got pregnant by their own decision to have sex.

If I have an option to back out than so should he.

Right, I agree but that's not how it is right now.

[–][deleted]1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Consent to sex isn't consent to carry an entire pregnancy. We have bodily autonomy and can revoke consent for another person to use our body at any point. Even if you previously decided to allow them. We aren't obligated to let a fetus stay inside our uterus, leeching off our bodily resources. If a doctor is willing and able to perform an abortion than that is our right, and it should be. Likewise, men shouldn't have to share their resources either. I know that society is in the wrong right now but two wrongs don't make a right. Everyone should have to support one of only two logical positions: either abortions are allowed and men can opt out of being involved/providing support or women can't have abortions and both parents are financially responsible from the moment she gets pregnant. Either both parents should have to bear equal responsibility or they should both have an out. Every other position is awful.

[–]TheBookOfSeil1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Consent to sex isn't consent to carry an entire pregnancy.

If you're not willing to accept the possibility of carrying an entire pregnancy, then maybe you shouldn't be having sex. It's not like you have control over whether you carry it or not if you have to ask someone else to help you get rid of it.

We have bodily autonomy and can revoke consent for another person to use our body at any point.

"Bodily autonomy" is not actually related to pregnancy. It's a grey area, hence this whole argument about whether women should be able to abort or not. "Revoking consent" isn't going to make the fetus say "Oh, my apologies," and eject itself from a vagina.

We aren't obligated to let a fetus stay inside our uterus, leeching off our bodily resources.

I agree, you can take it out if you want, but this doesn't mean that other people are obligated to help you, which is what women and pro-choice people believe the abortion argument/right is (Hint: It's not).

If a doctor is willing and able to perform an abortion than that is our right, and it should be.

So no hard feelings if doctors were no longer willing to perform abortions anymore? That's basically what your "rights" hinge on.

Everyone should have to support one of only two logical positions: either abortions are allowed and men can opt out of being involved/providing support or women can't have abortions and both parents are financially responsible from the moment she gets pregnant.

I'm in favor of the latter.

Either both parents should have to bear equal responsibility or they should both have an out. Every other position is awful.

I agree with you.

[–][deleted]1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I would accept it if no doctors in my country were willing to perform an abortion. I don't think doctors should be forced to stop performing abortions nor do I think they should be forced to perform them. I can't force a doctor to sterilize me either - did you know it's difficult for young women to find a doctor to sterilize them? Doctors have the right to deny you procedures that aren't medically necessary and I'm okay with that. It's their right to deny their service as much as it's my right to have an abortion (if I can find someone to perform one). But enough doctors are willing to perform abortions that it's a non-issue. I do have control over whether or not I end my pregnancy because I would not have a problem finding a doctor to perform an abortion for me. And it doesn't matter how the fetus feels about my lack of consent... if I revoke consent than it's getting forced out, tough luck.

[–]TheBookOfSeil1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

But enough doctors are willing to perform abortions that it's a non-issue.

Maybe right now.

I do have control over whether or not I end my pregnancy because I would not have a problem finding a doctor to perform an abortion for me.

I was pointing out that your "control" depends on another person, so it's not really you that has control. It's everyone else who is capable of giving you what you want, which is also the main point of this argument, as most abortions are not even necessary.

And it doesn't matter how the fetus feels about my lack of consent... if I revoke consent than it's getting forced out, tough luck.

I mean you can revoke consent but still the argument is not about your consent. Its about your ability to obtain an abortion or terminate your pregnancy yourself. Consent isn't a factor much like bodily autonomy isn't because it's not something that you actually have control over.

[–][deleted]1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]TheBookOfSeil1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

In that case we have control over almost nothing in our life.

Somewhat true, but depends on the thing.

Your logic can be applied to almost anything.

Correct. I'm just pointing out that what some people's ideas of "rights" are more privileges than rights. They think that others have to provide them with the things that they have a right to, when it really means that the government can't prevent or restrict their ability to get it within reason, not that other people or the government have to provide it to them.

I'm okay with that. I think doctors should be allowed to choose whether to perform abortions or not just like the people who slaughter cows for me get to make that choice

Well in this case, there's nothing really preventing the outlawing of meat so it could very well be outlawed just like abortion could be if the SCOTUS ruling were overturned.

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[–]geyges2 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

"Jealous of all the sex females not having with me" is not as trivial of a complaint as you think. But let's put that aside for a second.

There's more obvious equality issues here. We, having liberated women from all consequences of sex through abortion and contraception, we also have to do the same for men. Women still somehow cling like crazy to patriarchal vestiges that are "child support", which cannot exist in a sexually liberated world.

Now going back to anger about not getting sex, if we god-forbid get to the point where financial abortion does actually happen, we'll be in a situation where government taxes will pay child support, not individual men. This means productive but single and lonely and angry betas will be expected to pay for bastards of fertile alphas that females will increasingly choose to mate with. This will eventually boil over into such social unrest, that women will be lucky to have Pakistan-level of freedom.

All these archaic structures like family, fidelity, chastity/virginity, and even respect for life have much larger civilizational implication than simple "oppression of women". There's certain sacrifices to personal freedoms that both men and women have to balance in favor of living in a society that's not barbaric, and where women have any sort of freedom at all, let alone freedom to get their pussy stuffed by Chad dick whenever they feel like it.

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both mother and father are responsible for the life they created.

Absolutely.

I told you before I'm 100% in favor of child support, but that can't exist in a world where a mother has unilateral right to abort because the baby happens to be inconvenient.

So basically children should suffer and be neglected by one parent because you happen to be salty that babies grow in their mothers bodies and men don’t have control over those bodies? Do I have that right? Take it up with Mother Nature.

What does supporting a living child have to do with this? Once the child is born abortion is a non issue. Duh.

I'm still waiting for you to clearly articulate your stance on abortion;

Pro choice

all you're doing so far is pointing out hypocrisy in men, while ignoring obvious hypocrisy in women.

No that’s you trolling me.

[–]geyges1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]poppy_blu7 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The baby doesn't just appear all of a sudden. There's a period of time that a woman has an option to decide to support the child or to abort it. Man does not have that option. He's at the mercy of mother's decision.

Because she’s at the mercy of a minimum 18 year commitment while he can disappear and pretend he never even had a kid. And if you think isn’t still happening in huge numbers, your head is in the sand. Fewer than half of custodial parents received full child support due on time. I read one study that said as many as 1/3 of kids in America have no contact with their biological father.

If your argument is that men should be able to sign on the dotted line and walk away, I think its shitty but practically don’t object to it because the truth is if he doesn’t want the kid he’s going to walk anyway. It happens every day.

She can choose. He can't.

I’d ask why anyone is out there fucking without protection with someone they aren’t prepared to accept the consequences with. I don’t have much sympathy for:

“I don’t wanna be forced to raise a kid with her, no fair!” Shoulda wrapped it up then.

“He’s too irresponsible to be a dad, no fair!” Shouldn’t have fucked him or used BC then.

I do tire of this idea that people in these situations had to no opportunity to prevent it. BC rarely fails. I’ll give people some empathy cuz shit does happen but step up and take responsibility for your choices either way. too many of these people simply can’t be bothered to act responsibly and then want to act like it’s an injustice when they’re forced to be. And it’s the kids who suffer in the end.

Your appeal to mother nature is humorous. Given that mother nature made it so that a man is stronger, and can potentially force a woman to either carry to term, or run away from the responsibility.

So your deal isn’t that you resent that men can’t legally opt out it’s that men can’t force women to abort or keep the baby?

It's the legal dimension that prevents him from doing this, and legally, this is unequal treatment based on sex.

So let’s say you had cancer. And I’m a Christian scientist. I don’t believe in medical intervention. Should I be able to tell you what to do with your body?

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[–]qx4758Achromatic Rectal Suppository 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I agree, in principle, a fetus has rights. Exactly which and to what degree can be argued, but that's not the point here.

However, to place the rights of an unborn person above those of the mother is unethical and immoral. Your claim that they are not an organ donation recipient is ironic because it's a perfect analogy. The pregnant woman and the fetus are in nearly the exact same relationship as a prospective (live) donor and recipient. Your argument that the fetus is in the environment "nature put them in for their survival" is specious and irrelevant. The donor is making the donation completely at their discretion and has the right to abort the donation/transplant at any time, if that's what they decide is best for them, and no one has any legal, ethical, or moral basis for compelling the donor to continue with the procedure.

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[–]RandomUsernameSkrrrt3 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I posted this elsewhere a bit ago, but the original post was removed, so this seems like an apt place for it.

Other than moral objections, there is no way to justify being pro-life.

Since morality is only for regressed, troglodyte Bible-thumpers (obviously), we can move on with our lives and legalize abortion for our progressive, advanced society, right?

Well...

Other than moral objections, there is also no way to justify being anti-thievery/anti-murder/anti-rape/anti-slavery/anti-exploitation, and even, yes, anti-anti-abortion. omg what. head explodes

'Morality' is a natural by-product of social cohesion. The most fundamental type of morality is innate empathy and herd instinct. These two qualities are strongest in pack creatures (wolves, humans) and virtually nonexistent in solitary creatures (snakes, cats). It exists as a form of social security for the in-group and prioritizes the collective over the individual. Humanity's intellectual, sophisticated codes of morality, as in the case of religion, are simply extensions of this.

Is morality as a concept objectively "right" in the sense we "should" heed it? No, because to say such would be measuring morality itself by a moral metric (I love paradoxes). There is no objective reason why you should uphold moral conduct because objectivity implies freedom from reference frame, and morality is intrinsically tied to reference frame. Objectively speaking, there is nothing wrong with murder and rape. One look into the animal kingdom demonstrates this.

Okay, well, glad that's sorted out. We can just end things there and carry on living our very 'murder-and-rape-are-not-wrong' lives. :)

...feels kinda unsatisfactory tho, doesn't it. Fiiiiine, I guess we could take a look at pragmatism.

We've established morality itself isn't morally right or wrong (I keep snickering at this paradox, lawlz), i.e., no one needs to acknowledge or live by it if they don't want to. However, in strictly practical terms, it is a good tool for social cohesion for survival's sake. Survival isn't objectively right, either, but there's a subjective consensus around its value among humans, which makes it "locally" right to us. And so, it is idealized among us, and the best methods of its preservation become relevant to us. An effective method is through morality. In other words, investing in the public's welfare through altruism is a nice way to indirectly invest in one's own if all participants contribute, which is the incentive behind living morally for many. Altruism is merely long-winded selfishness in the end.

Since morality can be practically useful for the preservation of survival of societal members, it currently exists in our society. It manifests through our "human rights." Again, morality prioritizes the collective over the individual, and sometimes that means detracting a little from the individual's immediate impulses. A give-and-take exists.

So, returning to abortion specifically: the only justification for pro-life is morality. Outside of morality, abortion is perfectly permissible. The question then is: should morality surrounding abortion be upheld? And my answer is yes. Why? Because of the subjective consensus of value surrounding survival among humans. Abiding by morality and respecting other people's human rights is a social contract everyone makes for social security unto themselves. If you break it, as in the case of becoming a criminal, you are exempted from that social security and your survival is no longer protected by the group.

Abortion is by definition murder. Before you freak out and get triggered, just entertain me for a sec.

Murder: the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.
Human being: a man, woman, or child of the species Homo sapiens.
Child: a young human being below the age of puberty.

Now, there are two arguments that are commonly used in defense of abortion:

Question of fetus personhood.
Mother's right to autonomy.

For #1: What qualifies personhood?

Intelligence. If it's a threshold of intelligence, then retarded people are not persons and deserve no rights.
Self-awareness. Once again, some humans never reach this level of mental development. Additionally, dolphins qualify as persons and deserve human rights, then.

For #2: To what extent does individual autonomy outweigh the life of a dependent? If a mother's right to her autonomy outweighs that of her child's life, then mothers should be able to murder their children even after they're born all the way up until 18 years old, because until then the children are mandatory dependents infringing on her resources (food, shelter, care) and autonomy (career, hobbies).

The problem with abortion in our society right now is that it's not consistent with our morality and laws. Again, morality and laws don't need to be upheld if you don't want them, but if you choose to do that, be prepared for the same level of immorality you inflict on others to be inflicted on you (anarchy).

I'm a woman myself, and I'm not religious. I currently hold this stance in light of pure logical consistency.

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[–]RandomUsernameSkrrrt1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Nope. Taking life is warranted under many circumstances. :) I petition only for consistency in its application. If society agrees that X thing deserves Y consequence, that's jolly good. I just expect to see it extended across the board, then.

If you suffer a devastating car crash and lose sensory detection of pain along with other mental capabilities, your life is disposable now. Prepare to be promptly euthanized like a hapless dog at the pound. :)

If I'm a landlord and you're my tenant, and you stop paying rent and refuse to leave, instead of starting the long eviction process, I'll just crush your head until brain matter oozes out and tear your limbs apart with medical forceps, dumping your remains in the garbage can outside, because you are not entitled to my resources for a second. :)

[–]poppy_blu4 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]NarniaFox2 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It's false from the beginning. Illegal things are deemed illegal not just because of morals, but mostly for everyone's safety and society stability. That's where weed has become legal in some countries, because it's pretty safe. Abortions also provide safety and stability, historically any abortion bans led to higher women's mortality and in the worst cases higher rates for crime when all these unwanted pregnancy children got old enough.

Plus, abortions do fit into our morals. Bodily autonomy doesn't mean that you can kill someone just because, it means that you can decide what happens with your own body, even if it kills another human. With already born children it doesn't work like this, because they aren't directly connected to a mother and there is another way to get rid of them. Adoption.

Moreover, pro-birthers main point that one's life is more important than another humans being's health isn't consistent. Otherwise, we'd force adults to give their body parts, blood, stem cells etc to people who would die without them. But for now even if a person causes the other harm that leads to the need for a transplant or blood, we don't force them to give it. No one talks about it, because only women's bodily autonomy could be ignored for other specific human - a fetus.

[–]RandomUsernameSkrrrt1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Illegal things are deemed illegal not just because of morals, but mostly for everyone's safety and society stability.

There is not conflict here. We're saying the same thing. Valuing safety and societal stability is a matter of morality - i.e., illegal things are deemed illegal because they are not safe for the collective, and collective safety is important becaaause? Morality.

Abortions also provide safety and stability

The whole concept of morality is maximizing collective welfare, which doesn't mean one group only (mothers), but everyone (children, too).

Bodily autonomy doesn't mean that you can kill someone just because, it means that you can decide what happens with your own body, even if it kills another human.

Otherwise, we'd force adults to give their body parts, blood, stem cells etc to people who would die without them.

Yes. Your body is your property. Your energy is your resource. No one else is entitled to it.

Except, if there is a pre-agreed-upon contract, you are obligated to follow through. If you consent to a friend staying over at your house for the night in the dead of winter, you cannot kick them out randomly and watch them freeze to death. Sure, your friend is not entitled to your house, and under no circumstance without your former permission can they receive its shelter out of need, but the difference is you consented and therefore entered into an implicit contract with them that you are now obligated to fulfill. Landlords cannot kick their tenants out randomly; they must undergo a long eviction process because a contract exists. When you consciously allow a man to consciously insert his consciously unprotected penis into your consciously un-birth-controlled body and consciously stay in there long enough to consciously ejaculate and consciously impregnate you, you are consenting to a child's room and board in your body at that moment. You may change your mind later, but that implicit contract exists, and you are now under obligation to fulfill it, because like your friend staying over at your house, your child was "told" it could take up residency and depend on your resources for a time. Of course, not so much "told," but literally materialized off those endorsing actions of unprotected sex.

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[–]NarniaFox1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No, we aren't saying the same things. You claim that only morals deem what things are illegal or not and I'm saying that it's mostly practicality. Morals aren't always really practical.

Yes, and from a society point's of view it's better to terminate unwanted pregnancies rather than let them end in unwanted children. It's far cheaper and it creates less problems.

Well, I can kick them out if we haven't had a written contract before hand. And no when people have sex they don't consent to keep a pregnancy. They consent to have the risk of it, but not to carry it out. If I drive, I'm aware about the risks, it doesn't mean I consent to get into a car-crash or not to get medical help afterwards.

And pregnancy can happen even when people use contraception, unfortunately now there aren't 100% contraceptives.

[–]RandomUsernameSkrrrt1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

What you're saying:

I'm saying that it's mostly practicality. Morals aren't always really practical.

What I said:

The most fundamental type of morality is innate empathy and herd instinct.

It exists as a form of social security for the in-group and prioritizes the collective over the individual.

In strictly practical terms, it is a good tool for social cohesion for survival's sake.

Morality developed in pack creatures for practicality's sake due to its survivalistic advantage. You seem to be arguing more complex, sophisticated codes of morality, as in the case of religion, are not always practical, and to this I agree, but I'm not referring to those.

Yes, and from a society point's of view it's better to terminate unwanted pregnancies rather than let them end in unwanted children.

Let me rewrite this slightly for you.

Yes, and from a society point's of view it's better to terminate unwanted ~~pregnancies~~ Jews rather than let them end in unwanted ~~children~~ influence. It's far cheaper and it creates less problems.

Hmm, something looks oddly familiar... oh, that's what it is: dehumanizing an entire subset of the population and justifying their murder based off inconvenience to another. :) 'Society' encompasses all people, including children, and I think I'll let the child speak for what's better for him/herself, not the grown adult currently taking their non-aborted existence for granted with a clear agenda to deprive him/her of the same.

They consent to have the risk of it, but not to carry it out.

If I drive, I'm aware about the risks, it doesn't mean I consent to get into a car-crash or not to get medical help afterwards.

Just because you didn't consent (that is, planned) to get into a car-crash does not mean you are exempt from the responsibility and consequences following getting into one. It's like willfully closing your eyes (taking a risk), driving headfirst into another person's vehicle, then refusing to allot them any compensation for your actions because they are not entitled to your resources. You only consented to taking the risk of a crash by closing your eyes, not an actual crash, so therefore you are exempt from dealing with any consequences of one, right? Your money is your money, nobody else's. Under no circumstances are they entitled to it, even if you are responsible for creating their problem in the first place due to your own stupidity. Right??? Mm, sorry, doesn't cut it. You took a risk, failed at the lottery, and now the burden of compensation falls on you, not the other party involved. Like hell should someone else pay double for your poor decisions. You have unprotected sex, fall pregnant, and instead of paying dues to the growing fetus and situation you created, it pays you through death? loool

[–]NarniaFox1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You seem to be arguing more complex, sophisticated codes of morality, as in the case of religion, are not always practical, and to this I agree, but I'm not referring to those.

Okay, let's set it aside then.

Oh no, let's not make it into another "pro-choicers are Nazis!" talk, I've only recently had displeasure to talk to a similar-minded person. If you seriously gonna push it, I'm not gonna keep engaging into this conversation.

The main difference between any racial cleansing and abortions is that abortions are about personal choice. A woman decides what happens to her body, not a state, not a doctor, not some other people. Pro-choice doesn't advocate for killing all fetuses, they advocate for people to be able to choose what happens to their own bodies. Unfortunately, there's no way to take out a fetus without killing too. I guess when there will be a way to transplant it to an artificial womb, we'll reconsider our attitude towards abortions.

There are contracts with insurance companies according to which you have to pay if you caused any damage to other people while you were driving a car. But these people aren't entitled neither your body, body parts or even blood. Just money. No one is entitled to using another's body, even a fetus.

And you keep missing an important point - not all unwanted pregnancies happen because people didn't use contraception. There's no 100% contraceptives and there is always a slim chance to get pregnant even with vasectomy or tied tubed.

[–]RandomUsernameSkrrrt1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The main difference between any racial cleansing and abortions is that abortions are about personal choice.

The component in the Nazi analogy I'm highlighting is the reduction of human value in favor of X group's interests (usually deemed 'society' or 'the greater good,' even though in actuality it's never so humanitarian). There is no distinction between a pregnancy and a child. A pregnancy is a child, so you can rephrase

Yes, and from a society point's of view it's better to terminate unwanted pregnancies rather than let them end in unwanted children.

to

Yes, and from a society point's of view it's better to ~~terminate~~ kill unwanted ~~pregnancies~~ children rather than let ~~them end in~~ unwanted children live.

Because unwanted children are a burden to society that doesn't contribute enough value to be worth the protection. Because, in all of your superior better judgement, you can speak for all children when you say "No life at all is better than a life of lesser quality." I'm sorry, but you don't get to decide whether my life is valuable enough to society to warrant continued existence, or whether my life is subjectively luxurious enough to warrant being at all. That is completely outside your jurisdiction and, quite frankly, despicably arrogant.

Any arguments surrounding "the good of society" at the expense of an innocent group, or "the good of the child" at the expense of the child itself are to be dismissed completely. Children comprise society; their death is therefore in no way viably "good for society." Furthermore, life's rewarding capacity is an inherently subjective affair and is for the child to decide for themselves, no one else. You know, I just don't think your life's as great as it could be, NarniaFox. Death is obviously the better solution, agreed? Not that your consent matters, of course. I know what's best for you better than you do and will enforce it when you're at your most vulnerable and can't resist. :D

The only argument to address is, like you said, the whole personal choice thing - personal autonomy versus another's dependence, and it comes down to:

No one is entitled to your body or resources. Personal autonomy outweighs another's dependence in most instances.
Personal autonomy does not outweigh another's dependence if you are responsible for creating their dependence on you in the first place, however, be it through a willful contract, or consequences of risks you took.

But these people aren't entitled neither your body, body parts or even blood. Just money. No one is entitled to using another's body, even a fetus.

I don't see why a distinction needs to be made between financial resources and biological resources. They represent the same thing: life. Money -> labor -> energy -> life. Loss of money is loss of labor/ATP/cellular respiration/blood, sweat, tears, etc.. This is why indentured servitude has been an acceptable substitute for money. Seems totally arbitrary to draw a line at using one's body.

And you keep missing an important point - not all unwanted pregnancies happen because people didn't use contraception. There's no 100% contraceptives and there is always a slim chance to get pregnant even with vasectomy or tied tubed.

Unwanted pregnancies happen because people have sex. If they 100% don't want children, they should 100% not have sex. If they can't not have sex, then they're taking a risk, no matter how slim, and they will be held accountable accordingly to the consequences if pregnancy occurs, not the child.

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[–]geyejoe73 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I am for legalising abortion in my country, but against abortion from a philosophical standpoint.

You're killing a child. Let's not pretend it's anything else.

It's not just a fetus. If you let that fetus grow, it will become a human child. It won't become a demon or an elephant, it will become a human child. Therefore, you're taking life away from that child, before its life even started.

In the majority of pregnancies (about 85% to 90%), pregnancy ends in a human child.

In the minority (about 10%-15%) it ends in a miscarriage.

But just because some pregnancies end in a miscarriage, it doesn't mean it wasn't a human baby that was forming in a womans stomach.

Now, the reasons I think it should be okay to end a pregnancy:

Rape
The socio-economic status of the parents isn't good
They both don't want the child and will get an abortion another way if they're refused
They are under legal age
Complications during pregnancy for the mother or child
Severe disability being possible in the child (some things are predictable)

I think the proper way would be to teach women not to sleep around with any man they want at the time, then look for a way out (literally murder) when they get pregnant by some hunk behind the club.

Sex shouldn't be had with just anyone. Commited relationships should start to be encouraged more and more, and this "sexualisation" of women needs to stop. Women need to calm down with all this shit. Getting fucked by hundereds of men is temporary pleasure and will likely end your life in misery.

EDIT: The reason I'm for legalising it, is because they'll get it done illegally or go to another country and do it. Which could be unsafe for the mother AND the child, or they just spend their money in another country.

[–]kissmetilyouredrunk5 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]thelajestic5 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Married people and people in relationships still have abortions. The rates are lower (about 10% in US and about 20% in UK of abortions are for married women) but still there. They also don't really include relationships in that that aren't marriage, it's just married or single whereas there definitely will be people in relationships in that.

So not engaging in casual sex would reduce the amount of abortions but they would still happen. Besides which, why is it on women to stop it? Men have just as much to do with casual sex. If you, a man, don't want people to have abortions, then don't have sex. If a specific woman doesn't want to risk an abortion or baby, then she can not have sex.

The better option is to actually teach proper sex ed. Don't teach abstinence, that gets no one anywhere. Get people fully educated on sex, contraceptive methods. In countries like the US allow free access to birth control. It shouldn't be on insurance and it shouldn't require a discussion with parents (I don't know if it does but I'm assuming it must if there's an insurance component). My mum gave us sex ed when we were young, when we were teenagers she encouraged us both to go on the pill (while also highlighting the importance of continuing to use condoms). Both of us has slept around but neither of us has ever become accidentally pregnant (or got an STI). And partly that'll be luck but it's also the education piece. I've never been ashamed to talk about sex - I haven't been on the pill for years now because I was getting really bad side effects, and in that time I've had a couple of condoms split. I immediately went to the pharmacy and got free emergency contraception to prevent any pregnancies. So many people are ashamed to do that, or don't have free and easy access to this kind of thing.

So really: don't preach abstinence, give proper sex ed, don't shame people for having sex, and ensure free and easy availability to all birth control methods.

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[–]lawtwenty82 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It's not just a fetus. If you let that fetus grow, it will become a human child.

Actually, before viability the fetus is just a fetus and not a human child. It will grow into a human only if supported by the nutrients provided by the mother. Now as technology improves, the point of viability is getting closer and closer to conception, but that's still with medical intervention.

You're killing a child. Let's not pretend it's anything else.

Now, the reasons I think it should be okay to end a pregnancy:

Rape

The logically consistent position is that if a fetus is a child (legally and/or morally speaking), whether or not the child is conceived from rape is completely irrelevant, unless you want to argue that that child is somehow "tainted".

I think the proper way would be to teach women not to sleep around with any man they want at the time, then look for a way out (literally murder) when they get pregnant by some hunk behind the club.

No, I think the most proper way would be real sex education (not the puritan type sex ed you often get), free or inexpensive contraception, and free or inexpensive birth control. These policies would cut down on something like 70% of abortions.

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[–]geyejoe71 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The issue with study is that in the first part it says:

One study in Denmark, which included 1,221,546 pregnancies between 1978 and 1992, found the overall miscarriage rate was 13.5 percent.

But then later says in another study:

A 2014 IVF study found that, of 284 successfully karyotyped embryos from young women, 151 had abnormalities in the number of chromosomes - a rate of 53.2 percent.

This sort of abnormality, called aneuploidy, is the most common cause of miscarriages, accounting for 50 percent, and the risk of it rises with age.

While aneuploidy is a common cause of abortions, that doesn't mean that because in this study, aneuploidy happened in 50% of cases. But it doesn't say that all those ended in abortions.

For example, This study says it's about 20% of pregnancies in which aneuploidy occurres.

This study also points to "higher rates of spontaneous miscarriages gets higher with age".

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Equal treatment, I get it. The distinction between obligatory financial support versus biological is precisely what I’m disputing, though. A distinction shouldn’t exist in the first place. Why is it morally acceptable to not sacrifice biological resources for a dependent, but morally reprehensible to not sacrifice finances (for both sexes, even, as you claim)? No one should have to sacrifice resources for a dependent, biological or financial. I argue both men and women aren’t obligated to biologically support their children, and both men and women aren’t obligated to financially support them, either. In fact, parents are under no obligation to their children in any way, shape, or form whatsoever because children are parasites infringing on their right to autonomy. I say give parents the right to kill their children at any point between ages 0-18 the second they don’t want to charitably offer support anymore. Waiting to give the children up for adoption, just like waiting 9 months to birth a child instead of aborting it, is not an alternative, because every second is a violation of the parents’ rights. The moment parents want them gone, they’re gone, achieved through any means necessary. Do you agree?

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I’m not gonna argue with you on that. I went into this taking a gamble trying to branch the two together, and was curious to see the responses I’d get. I’m happy I didn’t get something mediocre.

Unfortunately, to follow up, I am gonna ask a mediocre question, and I am open minded to having my view changed or finding a middle ground cause I am pro life.

Is the baby inside of the woman not considered a life in it of itself? I’ve always wondered, why have sex and not wanna face the risk of creating another human life? The purpose of sex is to reproduce. I feel like abortion is a scape goat to escape the responsibilities of your actions. And in that particular action, you choose to take a human life.

Now I hear a lot of people mention that 1% of women who have been raped and get pregnant. Ofc, I can understand that being an exception. But aside from that, I truly wanna get the better understanding of why we’re trying to normalize taking a human life for the sake of convenience. Maybe there’s a bigger picture i’m not seeing.

[–]kissmetilyouredrunk6 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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Is the baby inside of the woman not considered a life in it of itself?

It depends on how far along it is, and abortion laws generally reflect that. Up to a certain point it's really only the potential of a life. In terms of medical emergency it is almost always the mother's life that is put first - if you are pregnant and discover you have cancer then you would get an abortion so you can get life saving treatment for instance, and if there is a complication with the pregnancy that will endanger the mother's life then that is the priority, and not the fetus. Or as in your example, with cases of rape. Why would that be any different if an abortion is needed for any other reason? It's either murder or it's not; it can't be murder in one circumstance and not murder in another.

I’ve always wondered, why have sex and not wanna face the risk of creating another human life? The purpose of sex is to reproduce.

But we don't just have sex to reproduce and it's ridiculous to assume that we will. We have sex for pleasure too and that isn't going to change. Are you only going to have sex a few times in your life? Like cos depending on fertility of you and your partner and how many kids you want that could literally be sex less than ten times in your life if you only want to procreate.

I feel like abortion is a scape goat to escape the responsibilities of your actions. And in that particular action, you choose to take a human life.

You can feel like that all you want. If I got pregnant now, I wouldn't have an abortion so my ideals aren't currently serving in my own interest. But I 100% support anyone that wants to have one. It's far more responsible to do that than bring an unwanted child into the world. And it isn't a human life. I say that has someone who has miscarried a pregnancy I was extremely excited about. I was devasted when I lost it because of the potential of the life that could have been, but not once did I view it as a current life being lost. It wasn't alive; it was within 10 weeks which is when 90% of abortions take place and it was basically a really heavy period with some clots. There's no baby, there's no life. It's a little clot of cells clinging precariously to your insides.

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Well, considering it are mostly men who commit crimes in general (including the rapes that leads to many of these unwanted pregnancies!!), you might as well say men aren’t exactly wired that way either.

Women are literally risking their health or even their lives to get an abortion. It’s not exactly comparable to any other kind of anxiety, except for the idea of wanting to get a parasite removed from your body before it gets bigger. As harsh as that may sound. But I think that people forget that before the 12 week mark you can also just literally menstruate out a fetus if somehow your period gets induced. The abortion pill too, only enforces a period, it doesn’t actually kill the fetus inside the body. Therefore I find it absolutely silly that people think they somehow can prevent abortions before this mark with a law.

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Funny, because I think the vomit spilling comes from your side and not mine. Imagine being so warped in male privilege that you start to think men are the oppressed gender. Then again, White people and heterosexual people also seem to think that of themselves these days I guess.

I have yet to see evidence of the claims you’re making here. And also, I’m a Dutch person living in Japan, so I’m not American biased when I talk about gender equality. I’m looking at things from a global perspective. The Netherlands has a pretty good balance in gender equality on paper and thank God also safe access of abortion. Socially it could be better though. Alimony too seems fair in Dutch law, and many Dutch women actually think that if a woman works then the man doesn’t need to pay support after divorce.

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Oh, you do know that abortions are free in Russia, don't you? It's included into universal health care and although it's not as easily accessible as one wishes, it's still free.

It's safer to get an abortion in a private clinic though, because they don't make you wait, listen to a heartbeat, talk to a priest and whatnot else, but it's good that women who can't afford to pay for an abortion still can get it.

Anti-choicers movement has been on a rise in the recent years and they push to exclude it from universal health care. In vain at least for now. If they succeed, it'll have terrible results and also a red flag for all women here that they need either to tie their tubes if they don't plan to have kids or think about moving away, because most likely anti-choicers won't stop just at limiting the access.

And yes, it's the reason why I'm so into this topic, because it's something that is extremely relevant here and what I worry about.

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Are you okay mentioning... ohmygosh... THE DREADED, CRUEL, UNJUST, dare I say VIOLENT, VIOLATING, BASICALLY RAPEY punishment of Public Reprimand for abortion... when the very same directive says to throw men in prison for 2 years for failure to pay child support?!

Видимо, нередко врачи давали разрешение на аборт по медицинским показаниям, когда таковых не было (например, подменяя результаты анализов). Так, в 1937 году абортные комиссии Ленинграда выдали разрешение на аборт почти половине обращавшихся женщин, а в Выборгском районе эта цифра достигла 70%13.

http://www.demoscope.ru/weekly/2005/0221/reprod01.php

по сведениям директора первой гинекологической больницы Москвы доктора М.К. Гесберг, из всех абортов 2 % составляли самопроизвольные, 6 % –выявленные криминальные, остальные 92 % –не выявленные, но вероятнее всего криминальные [11]. А по данным начальника сектора родовспоможения Мособлздрава доктора А.М. Зубковой, на 50 000 беременностей приходилось 16 000 абортов, из них явно криминальных 5000, при этом судебными органами было рассмотрено всего 2 700 дел [12].

https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/gosudarstvennaya-politika-v-otnoshenii-abortov-v-poslevoennyy-period-1945-1950-gg-1/viewer

Сообщения с мест показывают, что многие прокуроры не поняли важности [закона]... В Городищенском районе учительница начальной школы Турдак произвела самоаборт. Районный прокурор Ольхин дело в уголовном порядке прекратил, а учительницу привлёк к ответственности... в дисциплинарном порядке. В Николо-Черемшанском районе комсомолке Репиной был произведён аборт одной бабкой. Районный прокурор Сафонов дело у головном порядке прекратил в отношении бабки по мотиву преклонности её возраста, а в отношении комсомолки вопрос передал на рассмотрение комсомольской организации. Факты подобного рода имеют место не только в работе районных прокуроров, но и в работе народных судов, выносящих неосновательные оправдательные приговоры по таким делам.

http://istmat.info/files/uploads/33772/socialisticheskaya_zakonnost_no8._1937.pdf (p.47)

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Flip the genders: if we funded men’s healthcare, child support, and resources for single fathers and called it humanitarianism, would we use the term “throwing money at men”?

Absolutely; I'd say you gave a wonderful example of bad policy. It concentrates on oddly specific and really tiny subdemographic (single fathers, who by the way do reasonably well without any programs or funds); it does not establish any goals for any forseeable future (except vague stuff like 'everything good' or something); and it operates without any feasible control group.

Going back to Colorado example, i'm surprised that this "study" did not do (or did not include into this article) any comparable numbers. Abortion rates have been falling across the US since the 1980s with varying speeds and uneven geography; what happened with abortions in nearby states in the same time frame? How is Colorado ranked by abortion rates among the US states? How did it rank before the program was implemented? How has its ranking changed within the states of similar political beliefs or church attendance rates? Has any other state implemented any other practice of different paradigm (say, abolition of Romeo and Juliet laws, making all teenage sex illegal) and got a better result?

Similarly, I'd like to point to a policy done well in South Korea - segregated school education experiment. Several thousand schoolkids were chosen randomly, divided into control group and test group; control group remained in coed schools; test group went to experimental segregated schools. The experiment was astonishing success; both boys and girls in test group have shown significantly higher odds of passing entrance exams in universities; the effect for boys was 1.5 times higher than for girls.

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https://relampagofurioso.com/2018/03/12/the-gender-tax-gap-men-pay-200-more-taxes-than-women/

Figure 16 illustrates how women receive more government benefits than they pay into the system during the course of their lives in all but a short window from roughly age 40 to age 60. Even then, women receive far more government benefits than men. Figure 17 is the most damning, as it shows the cumulative fiscal impact per capita per sex. Women are a net drain on government resources (and therefore male taxpayers) from birth to death. Women end up with an average $150,000 lifetime deficit between what they pay into the system vs. what they take out of it! Importantly, men would wind up a net surplus at the end of our lives if Socialist governments didn’t force us to support women with our tax dollars! So, it can be said Western governments are broke because of women, and Western governments are wealth redistribution agents that rob overproductive men to pay underproductive women. It can also be said that if men didn’t have the burden of women and weren’t forced to carry both their weight and our own, we could work a lot less and enjoy life a lot more.

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Keeping pregnancy won't make them responsible.

Keeping pregnancy? We have no choice but to keep pregnancy. Anyway, whether it makes them responsible or not isn't the point. They don't learn - thats their fault.

... I can't fathom your logic. So it's okay to kill a born baby, but not okay to get rid of a fetus.

That's not "my logic." Nowhers did I say that it was okay to kill a born baby.

In my view, it's better to have an abortion if a couple/woman isn't ready for kids and especially if they're high chances for illnesses and malformations.

I think most pregnancies are relatively normal and healthy. Not wanting to have kids isn't a good enough reason. If you don't want kids, then you shouldn't be having sex at all. The only other choice is make it impossible for you to have them via sterilization.

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These are your words.

Yes, you don't have to wait until the child is born to see whether or not there are birth defects anymore. They can tell with technology now.

Not wanting to have kids is a perfectly good reason to have an abortion. And no, people don't have sex just for kids, they mostly have it for pleasure. It doesn't mean they consent to carry a pregnancy.

It doesn't matter what "reason" they have it for. The reason doesn't change the outcome because sex is still sex regardless.

If I drive a car, I know about risks, but I don't consent to get them or to not get help if I get them. That's pretty simple.

Your consent doesn't prevent them from happening so it doesn't matter. Also, "getting help" doesn't have to involve abortion. You can get help to manage pregnancy symptoms like any other woman does. Abortion is not a "cure for pregnancy."

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It should be legal to a woman to have an unwanted fetus removed from her full stop. The point in gestation doesn't matter because the vast majority of late-term abortions are going to be done for medical reasons anyway.

Financial abortions are trickier, but there should be legal avenues for it in the first trimester at least. The reason that there needs to be a time limit for it is to prevent the inevitable scumbags who will bounce when the woman is just about to give birth to get out of having to make child support payments.

If allowing an unwanted fetus to complete its gestation is really that important, then the people who think that should start looking into creating artificial wombs. The woman gets to give up all legal rights to the fetus by having it removed from her body, and the fetus gets to complete its gestation inside the artificial womb. It's a win-win and the only reason to oppose it is the belief that women don't have a right to their own bodies.

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Pro-lifers: If a woman gets an abortion, should the man who ejaculated in her be charged with child endangerment?

I know if I believed my ejaculation might potentially contribute to murder, I would find it immoral to ejaculate in anyone who wasn't my wife and who wasn't begging me to impregnate her.

Men know that they lose control over what happens to their sperm once they put it in a woman. Not only may that woman get an abortion, she might kill your child in other ways—by living an unhealthy lifestyle, taking hot baths, taking too much vitamin C, not taking prenatal vitamins, etc etc.

By ejaculating in a woman who's not your wife, not desperate to be pregnant, not responsible, financially stable, and sober, or in any other way not ready and willing to be a mother, you're potentially putting a child in a situation that might get it killed.

Why don't we hold these men accountable for the death and bloodshed that they decided was less important than their orgasm?

Obviously I think this is a terrible idea, I'm just showing how ridiculous pro-life rhetoric seems when you ask men to interfere with THEIR pleasure.

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That sounds expensive, It’s going to be a long ass time before society is going to invest in forcing women into an operation live extracting a delicate fetus from a womb and throwing it into a fakey one, when there are so many people that want to have children but cannot that would be dying to have the ability to use an artificial one. On top of that the first extraction equally violates bodily autonomy.

People will find alternatives, men AND women, Since if the father is known the man will be on the hook to raise the kid too.

And you yourself just said it’s an invasive procedure. No woman wants to go around having abortions. Its painful, not cheap compared to birth control, and has physical and emotional ramifications. In many states in the US it’s not easy to find a clinic and in other states there’s a lot of hoops to jump through. It’s a last resort and people in relationships abort more than single women do.

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There is only one thing to be said here

Women are not responsible for ‘controlling’ male sexual choices.

If you care so much about stopping abortion then take responsibility to ensure you aren’t a contributing factor to unwanted pregnancy

If the answer to avoid pregnancy is to not have sex until your ready for a child then both men and women together need to follow this advice.

The argument she didn’t force me to wear a condom or didn’t want me to doesn’t work as a defense because the condom and use of should be a mans equal responsibility.

Stop using you sexual desire to sleep with everything as an excuse for making women solely responsible in cases of unwanted pregnancy. If she is a slag/slut don’t stick your dick in her. That’s on you. If she won’t let you play without protection then YOU refuse to play. If saving unwanted pregnancy’s is so important to you then stop contributing to them both personally and within society. Stop high fiving that douchebag who brags about how many women he’s had unprotected sex with. Stop normalising men leaving a trail of babies they take no responsibility for everywhere they go. Do your part before you demand we do ours otherwise your just a hypocrite.

[–]abaxeron✴️(Not Actually) Indian Programmer 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

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[–]abaxeron✴️(Not Actually) Indian Programmer 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

No; it's supposed to bring some clarity.

"Women are not responsible for ‘controlling’ male sexual choices." - Women are responsible for men having sexual choices.

"Stop using you sexual desire to sleep with everything" - We don't have "desire to sleep with everything"; we simply have sex drive, which is and always was a normal part of our sexuality.

"If you care so much about stopping abortion then take responsibility to ensure you aren’t a contributing factor to unwanted pregnancy" - The vast majority of men aren't a contributing factor to unwanted pregnancy. Those very few who are a factor don't listen to anyone, because the ocean of pussy on demand they're floating in - is a sufficient proof (for them) that they are doing everything right.

"Stop high fiving that douchebag who brags about how many women he’s had unprotected sex with" - We were not "high fiving" them in the first place, as my source shows.

[–]Maleficent-Kaiba 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

So the fact that every second guy I meet over the age of 25 has kids is somehow irrelevant. That the world is full of single dads who aren’t in the top 20% of men?

Women are not responsible for controlling male sexuality. Sure we ‘have the final say’ on wether he gets it from us (but not really) but we can’t control wether or not he is going to seek it from us or be responsible about how he goes about it. That’s the equivalent of saying women can control a rapist. No we can’t. In the end it’s up to the man to decide if he is going to respect our no or use our yes. So in reality the choice is yours.

Women have sexual desire too, why should they be the only ones who have to repress and control it?

As for your last point you do realise men are required for pregnancy to occur, no man = no pregnancy. If you don’t have sex with her even if she offers (you know like how you expect women to not have sex with people they want to because they should take accountability) she can’t get pregnant by you. It’s not rocket science. Don’t agree with abortion then don’t go sticking your dick in pro choice women and if your not sure of her stance don’t stick it in. Also don’t stick it in pro life women until you want a kid

Or is it somehow abusive to expect men to take accountability for their sexual choices?

[–]abaxeron✴️(Not Actually) Indian Programmer 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

In the end it’s up to the man to decide if he is going to respect our no or use our yes. So in reality the choice is yours. ... Or is it somehow abusive to expect men to take accountability for their sexual choices?

I am "A" man, not "THE" man. I've had my share of choices, made them, was responsible for their outcome, and not intending to make any mistakes later in my life (if I ever end up living alone again, I'll probably promise myself just to never let a woman into my house, unless she's literally my landlord or an emergency medic). People who are "THE" men, who run around without a condom fucking everything that moves, having 100+ partners and 10+ kids by the time they're 27, don't listen to me and think I'm a pathetic loser.

So the fact that every second guy I meet over the age of 25 has kids is somehow irrelevant

"Meet" in a dating scenario?

68.9% of US men aged 25-29 report having no biological children ("Men's Fertility and Fatherhood 2014", Census). Men with kids would rather tell you that they don't have them than lie in an anonymous survey (i.e. of course surveys have limitations, but less than your observations). It's not that every second guy aged 25-29 has kids; it's that you are actively selecting for men who were previously successful with women; most likely, with plenty of them (OR you don't discriminate against men who are much older; share of men without kids falls below 50% somewhere between 30 and 34).

If you limit yourself to men aged 25-29 who were never married (will you?), chances of them having no children will bump to 83% (and stay above 50% until fukken forever, crawling higher and higher after 40; table 2 of the report).

To quote you... "it's not rocket science".

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Nature cares that men ejaculate in women and that babies appear... It shouldn't care if women's bodies return to relative health and normality after pregnancy

For a species with natural average amount of offspring being 1 per pregnancy, it's an absolute minimum in most ideal conditions that a woman must survive at least through 2 (realistically 4-5) pregnancies and MINIMUM half a year after giving birth (lowest estimate of stone-age breastfeeding duration). In certain R-selected species, females survive just until some of their descendants have a chance to survive on their own, such as octopus (50,000 babies), squid (100,000), salmon (1,000-17,000), and common mayfly (400-3,000).

Humans, as I already said, are extremely K-selected.

There's no reason for nature to care if 9 months of pregnancy is horrific for the woman or not, since they'll get pregnant regardless.

Yes there is. Horrific pain and suffering can leave an animal insane to the point of inability to care for the offspring. Not a problem for, say, reptiles that lay eggs and move on with their lives. Huge problem for social/pack mammal species where a female must literally feed the baby from her own body for anywhere between 6 months and 5 years.

Torture does leave victims insane with quite constant "success" rate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychology_of_torture#Victims

It's the leading cause of death in the undeveloped countries.

Because all other causes of death for women have been successfully eliminated either completely (smallpox), or much faster due to their higher priority. To put things into perspective, in 20th century, pregnancy and childbirth complications took about 64 million lives of women; slightly more than homicides. Communicable diseases took 1.68 billion. xxxxxxx

In America it's still the 6th leading cause of death for women in their 20s

the 6th? Then the US did a wonderful job in eliminating all other causes; well done. You do understand that American women in their 20s is literally one of the world's safest demographics in history, right?

[–]kissmetilyouredrunk{<my pussy tastes like pepsi cola>} 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

Sure, I guess none of this constitutes "suffering". I mean women are more likely to have PTSD from childbirth than soldiers are from war:

Any health problems: 31% at 6 months pp (all modes of delivery) source*

Any severe pregnancy complication: 1.6% (USA) source, 1.5% (Canada) source

Pain

Any persistent pain: 10% at 1 year pp, 18% at 1 year pp (c-section) source

Persistent pain (intense or unbearable): 3% at 1 year pp (vaginal birth), 2%(c-section) source

Perineal pain: 21% at 6 months pp (all modes of delivery) source*

Backache: 57% at 1 year pp source, 7.3% had backache lasting 3 months pp while not having had this ever before source

Headache: 42% at 1 year pp source

Physical issues:

Anal sphincter defects: 35% at 6 weeks pp (pre-pregnancy: 0%) source

Hemorrhoids: 23% at 1 year pp source

Constipation: 12% at 1 year pp source

Urinary incontinence: 9% at 1 year pp source

Fecal incontinence: 4% at 1 year pp source

Urinary infections: 4% at 1 year pp source

Vaginal infections: 10% at 1 year pp source

Sexual problems:

Any problems with intercourse: 49% at 1 year pp source (This study has flaws, see: here)

Painful intercourse: 34.2% at 6 months pp source(Chinese), 17% at one year pp source, 7.17% pre-pregnancy source(Chinese)

Lack of sexual desire: 35% at 1 year pp source

Psychological/sleep disorders:

Anxiety: 56% at 1 year pp source

Depressive symptoms: 33% at 1 year pp source

Major depressive episode: 13% starting within 3 months pp (all methods of delivery) source*

Of which result in chronic depression: 38% at 3 years pp source*

Post Traumatic Stress disorder: 12.7% at 3 months pp, 13.6% at 6 months pp (all methods of delivery) source

Psychosis: 0.2% source*

Sleep disorders: 33% at 1 year pp source

Extreme tiredness: 64% at 1 year pp source

https://www.reddit.com/r/Abortiondebate/comments/k0fy3d/pregnancy_as_a_minor_inconvenience/?sort=confidence

And this is just when things go well. I know a woman whose bladder starting falling out of her vagina several months postpartum. I know several women who'll be in diapers forever

Consider that women's bodies fight like hell against the implantation of an embryo, and succeed in fighting a fertilized egg off 50% of the time. Women evolved menstrual periods as a defense against pregnancy. That's because pregnancy takes a profound toll on her body, and women whose uteruses didn't successfully kill off at least half the embryos that tried to implant didn't pass their genes on.

If you need more evidence, look at the horrific things that doctors accept as normal.

Evolution's standards are "women should survive pregnancy most of the time, and those who survive should have bodies capable of receiving a man's ejaculate, even if intercourse is horrendously painful for years postpartum". Sorry, but that's not good enough for me

[–]abaxeron✴️(Not Actually) Indian Programmer 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (5 children) | Copy Link

women are more likely to have PTSD from childbirth than soldiers are from war

No.

Women develop PP-PTSD-like symptoms (subthreshold) at the same rate as war veterans develop acute/clinical PTSD. If you apply these soft criteria of PTSD to combat veterans, their rates can easily go above 50%.

The fact that these things sound similar doesn't make what you said right.

Any health problems:

None of this argues against anything that I said.

I'm arguing against the notion that pregnancy is [comparable to] torture; you're bringing in a post that specifically argues against the notion that childbirth is a minor inconvenience. As if the latter somehow follows, or there's nothing in-between.

I know several women who'll be in diapers forever

I knew several men who died before their 60th birthday, and two who died before their 40th. I've read about several people who contracted polio through mutated vaccine sample. Don't get me started on horrific pain and side effects in patients of chemo cancer treatment; and lo and behold, we aren't using "alive" polio vaccine anymore because we have an alternative, but we're still using chemo. Because negative effects is not the only thing that there is.

https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/luqc1j/abortion_mega_thread/gpcqb45/

https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/luqc1j/abortion_mega_thread/gpebprh/

When torture has positive effects on cancer & diabetes risk and life expectancy, comparing it to pregnancy will hold water.

Evolution's standards are "women should survive pregnancy most of the time, and those who survive should have bodies capable of receiving a man's ejaculate, even if intercourse is horrendously painful for years postpartum". Sorry, but that's not good enough for me

Neither it is for men. Which is why men (men!!! Despite obstetrics being historically female-dominated!) did everything within their power, ability, and ingenuity to make pregnancy and childbirth as easy and safe as physically possible. And oh look, not only women are still bitching, but they're now bitching even more. Go figure.

Eventually, as trends go, we're almost guaranteed to develop a) methods that will grant long-term health benefits of maternal history to childless women; b) artificial womb (because technology is almost guaranteed to repeat and surpass everything that life is capable of, since life is generally of quite shitty design).

When it happens, I'm all for outright banning natural pregnancies. Because I once got arsed to Google how a newborn with abstinence syndrome and fetal alcohol syndrome look like.

So, deeply sorry, but we aren't there yet. Men will keep doing something about it at highest pace possible.

[–]kissmetilyouredrunk{<my pussy tastes like pepsi cola>} 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

How about this. I'll tear you open from the tip of your dick to your anus. No guarantee that anything in your pelvis heals properly or works again. You let me know if that's "torture" or not.

Neither it is for men. Which is why men (men!!! Despite obstetrics being historically female-dominated!) did everything within their power, ability, and ingenuity to make pregnancy and childbirth as easy and safe as physically possible.

Yeah, did you see the stats I linked too? Clearly "men" haven't done a very good job.

In fact they've kind of steamrolled over the things women knew for generations. That's why women birth in hospital beds, even though it's safer and more natural to squat. That's why women suffer through episiotomies, even though they cause more and more permanent damage to her genitals. That's why over 1/3 of births are C-sections now, even though they result in the mother's death 3 times more often and the babies have worse health outcomes decades down the line.

Maybe brilliant, logical men should lay off for a bit. Because somehow I think if it were their genitals getting split open, if it was their pleasure and health on the line—no one would accuse them of "bitching". In fact we'd never stop celebrating them and their bravery and sacrifice

[–]abaxeron✴️(Not Actually) Indian Programmer 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

no one would accuse them of "bitching". In fact we'd never stop celebrating them and their bravery and sacrifice

So we're going to forget how women accused men of bitching because male birth control trial that most of test subjects went through and were ready to continue (despite heavier side effects than of female BC) - was terminated by ethics committee?!

We're going to forget how many times "fragile male ego" was pushed into trends by women on every social media in the last 5 years or so?

We're going to forget how much more painful it is to remove kidney stones from men, and how they suck it up and get back to work in a couple of days?

Or how no-one "celebrates" men's bravery and sacrifice for being the world's majority of blood donors (which you probably did not even know, let alone celebrate, until this very second), or how no-one cares that 5% of combat injuries affect genitals?

No, we're too busy celebrating stunning and brave single moms for driving their ex-husbands to suicide.

[–]abaxeron✴️(Not Actually) Indian Programmer 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

How about this. I'll tear you open from the tip of your dick to your anus. No guarantee that anything in your pelvis heals properly or works again. You let me know if that's "torture" or not.

For the benefit of several extra years of life, lower risk of cancer, lower risk of diabetes, and the equivalent of state-provided benefits for maternity? - Just don't forget epidural anesthesia before you start. You know, the one invented by a man. I'll pay for that one; good investment.

Clearly "men" haven't done a very good job.

https://ourworldindata.org/exports/maternal-mortality-f81ea76591c7a86c78c118d613691809_v6_850x600.svg

Men could perform a super-beneficial divine miracle right before your eyes and you'd still complain that it's not good enough.

That's why women birth in hospital beds

I haven't been to labor ward myself, but my partner's serious surprise arose when she saw that the ward is equipped with a fucking inflatable swimming pool. "Women give birth in hospital beds" in Hollywood films, because the depiction of clean, calm, and relaxed environment (rather than bloody, stressed, and filled with equipment beeps and personnel shouts) increases film sales. In hospitals, women give birth in the ways that reasonably minimise risks.

even though it's safer and more natural to squat

As proposed and popularized by an anti-feminist man, supported by comprehensive analysis by four men, for a medical ethics organization founded by a man.

In fact they've kind of steamrolled over the things women knew for generations.

Well it's kinda shitty that women forgot to write thoes things down, don't you think.

That's why women suffer through episiotomies, even though they cause more and more permanent damage to her genitals. That's why over 1/3 of births are C-sections now, even though they result in the mother's death 3 times more often and the babies have worse health outcomes decades down the line.

Male obstetricians did not invent C-sections. They (Ferdinand Adolf Kehrer, Max Sänger, Hermann Johannes Pfannenstiel) invented practices that allow women to stay alive after them. Prior to them, C-section mortality was 85-100%. Currently, it's 36 per 100 thousand. Divine miracle indeed. And women are still bitching.

As for reasons why C and episiotomies got so common lately, many theories I read agree that obesity epidemic must be a factor.

Maybe brilliant, logical men should lay off for a bit.

Maybe; I support gender segregation. Women failed men. Medicine is currently one of the few areas where women dominate the most, and the gender disparity of coronavirus mortality does show that male doctors should concentrate on something closer to themselves than making women's lives better and easier. Such as, on health of their fellow men.

Because somehow I think if it were their genitals getting split open,

Men did not INVENT pregnancy. Nature is unfair. Men fought AGAINST this unfairness, FOR women's benefit.

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I'm deeply pro-choice and I doubt there's anything that could change it.

And I have question for pro-birth people.

Pro-birther's one of the main points is that one's life is more important than another humans being's health. So a death of a fetus is always worse than any complications a woman can get during pregnancy and giving birth. I don't agree with this argument and I don't think it's really consistent. Otherwise, we'd force adults to give their body parts, blood, stem cells etc. to people who would die without them, because any side-effects or complications aren't more important that one's life at least according to pro-birthers. But for now even if a person causes the other harm that leads to the need for a transplant or blood, we don't force them to give it. No one talks about it, because only women's bodily autonomy could be ignored for other specific human - a fetus.

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[–]abaxeron1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

If anything you should apply to many of these women because they’re trying to prevent abused and neglected children from coming into the world.

And if a woman nukes a city tomorrow, I also should applaud her because it probably was a shitty city anyway; why would a woman nuke a good one. YOUR correlation and causation are backwards.

Is being childless detrimental to a woman's health and well-being across her life course? (n=52,381) (Yes, unless she's childless, never married, single, or older than 65).

Do Child-Free Live Longer? (overview of 4 studies) (No; "A 2006 study published in the American Journal of Human Biology tracked 116 years of births–from 1886 to 2002–in four regions of Poland and found that women lost an astonishing 95 weeks of life for each child they carried... But other findings – indeed, the majority of them – reach very different conclusions.")

[–][deleted]1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]NarniaFox3 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

If you think that one's health is just a convenience, sure.

1 in 6 births was affected by gestational diabetes.
Women who had prior GDM have a 36–70% risk of developing type 2 diabetes later in life. Gestational diabetes mellitus (GDM) is a risk factor for the development of endothelial dysfunction and cardiovascular disease.
Preeclampsia is one of the leading causes of maternal morbidity and mortality worldwide. It is a pregnancy-specific multi-organ syndrome that affects 2–8% of pregnancies.
There is a significant risk of preeclampsia recurrence in future pregnancies. There is an increased lifetime risk of chronic hypertension, cardiovascular disease (CVD), and stroke in women who experienced preeclampsia during pregnancy.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5575578/

And there is also incontinence

Four years after the first delivery, prevalence of stress urinary incontinence was 29% (89/307)

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2662093/

9 out of 10 women will tear and 1 out of 100 will have 3d (extending away from vaginal wall towards the perineum to the anal sphincter) or 4th (extending into the anal canal as well as the rectum) degree tearing.

And we also have postpartum depression

Postpartum depression (PPD) affects up to 15% of mothers.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3918890/

That also can lead to a bipolar disorder

Approximately 14% of women with first-time psychiatric contacts during the first postpartum month converted to a bipolar diagnosis within the 15-year follow-up period compared with 4% of women with a first psychiatric contact not related to childbirth.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/1151054

And your study doesn't say whether these women are childless by choice or not. It's no wonder that women with health issue abstain from having kids, lots of illnesses can get worse or even kill a woman if she decides to have a child.

[–]abaxeron1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

And your study doesn't say whether these women are childless by choice or not.

I've expanded on the topic here. Let me expand even further.

"For most women with gestational diabetes, the diabetes goes away soon after delivery."

In women, there was a J-shaped association between number of children and risk of diabetes [later in life]. Compared with women with one child, the adjusted [hazard ratios] for diabetes were 1.39 (95% CI 1.11, 1.73) for childless women, 1.12 (95% CI 1.07, 1.18) for those with two children, 1.23 (95% CI 1.16, 1.31) for those with three children, and 1.32 (95% CI 1.21, 1.44) for those with four or more children. China, 2016, n=463,347

History of pregnancy, childbirth, and breastfeeding, when done right and except several fringe subcategories, provides long-term protective effects against several types of reproductive organ cancers (36 studies) (although immediate risk of cancer might be elevated shortly after giving birth, and there's at least one super-exotic, super-rare cancer directly caused by pregnancy).

Cool story time: I had a COVID vaccine shot yesterday; it was associated with immediate mild bleeding at the piercing site, muscle pain (which still lasts), stress from being in medical environment, flu-like symptoms in the evening, and loss of precious time to get to the hospital and get back from it. According to the logic you present, these facts mean that overall effect of COVID vaccine on my health is negative.

[–]NarniaFox1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]abaxeron1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Your studies still don't tell anything about women childless by choice.

Yours don't tell anything about women "childful" by "not-choice". Maybe the negative effects you describe only occur in unplanned pregnancies. This logic goes both ways, and women are far from perfect decision-makers.

And you've found studies only for diabetes.

No; I also gave you overview on cancer, and I just don't want to overwhelm you, but postpartum depression is also mostly bullshit.

People should be able to decide what happens to their bodies.

You live in a country where not assisting a person in immediate danger is a criminal offense, where able-bodied men get constripted into compulsory military service to protect everyone else (essentially women) and risk prison time if they deliberately hurt themselves to compromise their military service fitness (while volunteer service women don't face anything if they avoid deployment by getting pregnant), where some types of medical procedures and vaccinations are mandatory for conscripts (men), same as acquisition of their fingerprints, where men are banned from travelling abroad if their military or child support obligations are not fulfilled, and where women get away with probation for killing their newborn babies even if they have "clean" mental evaluation (i.e. no traces of PPD).

Finally, no-one "decides" for women if they get pregnant or not. If you don't want kids, don't PIV.

[–]nemma888 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Lets get all staty.

6% of the UK population are against the right to abortion with 86% pro-choice, so anti abortion sentiment isn't really seen (consistent polling over 12 months) . What may be more surprising is the breakdown remains the same regardless of age, social economic status, or gender. There is a slight difference in Wales VS Scotland with fewer scots being anti abortion and slightly more Welsh being anti abortion, but otherwise regional views are mostly the same.

99% are undertaken by the NHS.

55% of abortions carried out are to existing mothers.

57% were using contraception when they became pregnant.

81% have the marital status of single.

Nearly 50% of all abortions are in the 20-29 category with the remainder being weighted towards 30+ rather than the <20's.

91% are carried out in the first 13 weeks of pregnancy, 7% are 13-19 weeks and 2% >20 weeks.

98% are approved under Ground C, with two medical practitioners agreeing

That the pregnancy has NOT exceeded its 24th week and that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman.

Sources; yougov & .gov stats.

[–]geyges4 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted]4 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

How reliable is most contraception? Contraception reliability is based on how effective that contraception is an given year when used correctly each and every time. Condoms used correctly each and every time are are 98% effective in any given year. Condoms used correctly over 30 years are .9830 or only 55% effective.

How about methods like iuds. Pretty effective right? .99 % for non hormonal ones.Thats 74% effective over a woman’s reproductive lifetime

“IUDs greatly reduce the risk for fertilization in the first place by preventing sperm from reaching an egg as well as making cellular changes to the egg the fertilization process (8).

Further, there is evidence that even if an egg is fertilized, it doesn’t undergo normal developmental processes and thus won’t develop into an embryo (8).”

Read the last part. 99% chance “you won’t end up with a baby” Ever so slightly lower that you won’t conceive. If you think that life begins at conception, might as well just say “ever so slightly lower you won’t murder a baby with out knowing it”.

We get really good with hormonal iuds. Greatly lower your risk by not only preventing conception, also preventing ovulation. Still some ovulation occurs. Now you have an even tinier chance you won’t murder a baby without knowing it.

https://www.livescience.com/16917-mississippi-personhood-birth-control.html

[–]kissmetilyouredrunk1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–][deleted]3 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I think we are one the same page here. My point is if you want to argue all life begins at conception, you better be careful what you wish for. If every fertilized egg and early stage embryo has the same rights as a human, better make every woman not taking birth control get an exam every single month, sort of a home fitness check, just in case an egg gets fertilized.Because if a week old zygote has the rights of a human, then that embryo deserves healthcare, no matter how unviable or deformed. Also, be prepared to arrest not only a lot of women, but a lot of newborns too for involuntary manslaughter. Lots of invisible twins have been reabsorbed and died due to their wombmates

I’m just taking what pro lifers see as a logical argument and applying the same logic that every fertilized egg has full human rights to its very illogical consequences.

[–][deleted]2 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I think if you consider life to begin at conception, and consider any destruction of a fertilized egg to be murder then you you better look hard at your form of birth control. Especially non hormonal iuds, “Like many forms of contraception, scientists aren’t sure exactly how this method works”, but they know that it can be effective. They do not prevent ovulation, and while they do seem too inhibit sperm, they are also thought to work by preventing implantation, not fertilization.Hobby Lobby and many other religious groups argue this and plan b etc. are abortifacients.

The Hobby Lobby brief states, “given their [religious] beliefs, Respondents cannot cover [Plan B, Ella, and two types of intrauterine devices] without facilitating what they believe to be an abortion.”

And look real hard at in vitro fertilization. 8 million kids born by in vitro means many many more individual humans with individual dna purposely created with full knowledge that only a tiny % will ever make it out of a freezer.

I live around a lot of fundies, many against the pill because again, babies die. It’s rare, but not I possible to conceive on the pill and most of these fertilizations will be aborted by the body due to the hormones in the pill.

Do I believe them to be murder? No. Can it be legally argued that the should be banned? Absolutely

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[–]TheBookOfSeil 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

"An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure."

Why do people seem more invested in addressing problems after they become problems rather than prevent them in the first place? It just seems like people want to live their lives and have less to think/care about.

Abortion follows the same procedural logic as when someone has a problem with their car. They take it to a mechanic (doctor) to tell them what the problem is and then pay to have that problem fixed, when the problem could have been averted if they had spent some time thinking about what they need to do to prevent the problem in the first place, like switching out old parts before they break down (or being more mindful about what they need to do to prevent a pregnancy from happening).

Most of the need for abortions stems from pure laziness and ignorance.

[–]Ice-Storm 7 points8 points9 points 5 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

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The ignorance is intentional. Many “pro life”evangelicals specifically refuse to allow children to be taught comprehensive sex education. They are told that abstinence is the only way.

All contraceptive methods carry a risk. The best that people can do if they're going to roll the dice is use multiple methods, and even then, there is no guarantee. Telling people that abstinence is the only 100% way to prevent pregnancy is correct.

Also, I said that the need for abortion stems from ignorance, not that people are told to be ignorant. Anyone who says that they didn't know that sex caused pregnancy or that they didn't know there were contraceptives available to them beyond the age of 18 is probably just lying. There's no way, unless maybe they are Amish.

Then people do what people do and they get pregnant and the girl can’t tell her judgey ass parents who kept her ignorant lest she get booted from home, so she goes to get an abortion. So you used the wrong formula but got half the right answer.

I'd have to look at the stats again to see if this is even listed, but I think the majority of abortions are coming from the "18 - 29" age group, not 17 and below. Teen pregnancy is a whole other issue.

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[–]TheBookOfSeil3 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Why do you have opinions on things you know nothing about?

It's not my business to know what the side effects of birth control are considering that I'm not the one taking them. Duh. Why would I know or care to know what the side effects of things that don't concern me are?

Also, you didn't exactly answer my question. A possibility of experiencing a side effect is not the same as experiencing the side effect, so how exactly are women suffering while taking birth control? None of them are dying.

You're the one trying to take abortion rights away and you say something like this?

Yup. There's always the option of not having sex or picking a different hole.

Another also: there's no actual "abortion rights." There is only the "right" that the government cannot hinder or prevent you from aborting. It says nothing about women having a right to abortions.

[–]kissmetilyouredrunk3 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It's not my business to know what the side effects of birth control are considering that I'm not the one taking them.

It's your business to know about things you're opining on. It's also your business to know what life is like for HALF OF THE PLANET.

A possibility of experiencing a side effect is not the same as experiencing the side effect, so how exactly are women suffering while taking birth control

You don't have any female friends, do you? Ask them if they suffer from birth control. Ask if it's changed their body shape, the size of their breasts, the erotic potential their nipples, their mental state, their attraction, their sense of smell, the texture of their hair and skin, the way sex feels, their vaginal lubrication, their anxiety, depression, and suicidality. Hormones profoundly effect every aspect of your life, mental and physical. To change someone's hormones is to change them.

There's always the option of not having sex or picking a different hole.

Some women don't have that option, especially women who live with men they're involved with.

You said woman can "pick a different hole" as if female pleasure is irrelevant to sex. Because blowjobs and anal aren't exactly gratifying to women. Imagine if a man said, "I want to stick my dick in a woman" and your response was, "Give her an orgasm with your tongue instead". Somehow that wouldn't seem like a substitute, would it? How is it that your brain doesn't think pleasure should be a part of women's sex lives?

[–]TheBookOfSeil3 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It's your business to know about things you're opining on.

You're actually the one that brought up birth control and it's side effects, not me.

It's also your business to know what life is like for HALF OF THE PLANET.

Does that go for Tasmanian squirrels and pygmy monkeys too?

You don't have any female friends, do you?

I do.

Ask if it's changed their body shape, the size of their breasts, the erotic potential their nipples, their mental state, their attraction, their sense of smell, the texture of their hair and skin, the way sex feels, their vaginal lubrication, their anxiety, depression, and suicidality.

Oh man, that sounds terrible. It must hurt so much to not feel sensation in your nipples or be able to get wet. What a terrible way to live..

The last three were the same when they started trials for men's birth control pills as well, so yeah. Matter of fact, a lot of them were the same.

Some women don't have that option, especially women who live with men they're involved with.

That's still a choice.

You said woman can "pick a different hole" as if female pleasure is irrelevant to sex.

Yup. Most women don't get much pleasure or orgasm from PIV anyway. I think anal sex actually gives women more orgasms than PIV sex does. Gotta look up on that though.

Because blowjobs and anal aren't exactly gratifying to women.

I dunno about that. Some women say otherwise. Maybe just not to you?

Imagine if a man said, "I want to stick my dick in a woman" and your response was, "Give her an orgasm with your tongue instead". Somehow that wouldn't seem like a substitute, would it?

No, because the tongue is not a sex organ. I don't even consider "oral sex" to be "sex" actually.

How is it that your brain doesn't think pleasure should be a part of women's sex lives?

Because most women can't even orgasm from actual sex...? Heterosexual "sex" is basically taking turns to give the other an orgasm since they don't orgasm from the same thing.

[–]kissmetilyouredrunk2 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You're actually the one that brought up birth control and it's side effects, not me.

And you're the one who chose to comment on it

Does that go for Tasmanian squirrels and pygmy monkeys too?

I'd say women's inner lives are more important than pygmy monkeys'. Women have that whole "human" situation

Oh man, that sounds terrible. It must hurt so much to not feel sensation in your nipples or be able to get wet. What a terrible way to live..

If you really think arousal and pleasure aren't important, go ahead and cut your dick off. I'll wait.

That's still a choice.

Not if you're financially dependent on him and you have kids together. This is a very common situation

No, because the tongue is not a sex organ.

But the rectum is? Look, when you're aroused enough, you want a dick inside you. You don't want a dick in your ass unless you're a masochist.

[–]TheBookOfSeil3 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

And you're the one who chose to comment on it

So? I actually even said that maybe women should stop taking BC but you brought up it's side effects so I don't know what you're even trying to argue anymore.

I'd say women's inner lives are more important than pygmy monkeys'. Women have that whole "human" situation

You said "the other half of the world. Human women don't account for half of the entire world.

If you really think arousal and pleasure aren't important, go ahead and cut your dick off. I'll wait.

Cutting my dick off would actually hurt, unlike not being able to get wet or feel sensation in your nipples.

Not if you're financially dependent on him and you have kids together. This is a very common situation

Is it? So these women are basically live-in prostitutes who are being forced to exchange sex for food and shelter, or am I missing something?

But the rectum is?

Not exactly, but it's so close to the sex organs that people seem to be able to get orgasms from them. I've never heard of anyone having an orgasm from getting their tongue rubbed.

Look, when you're aroused enough, you want a dick inside you. You don't want a dick in your ass unless you're a masochist.

That has nothing to do with what women actually derive pleasure and orgasms from though. Fact of the matter is that, again, most women don't orgasm from actual sex.

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The way it works is that trials get stopped by safety monitoring panels. These panels look at the risks to the trial participants vs what might be gained (either scientifically or therapeutically). Alternatively, the company decides it's unmarketable and cuts its losses. As you noted, the reality is that pregnancy isn't a health risk for men. This is the crux of the issue. The lack of health threat goes hand-in-hand with a lack of health benefit. So a marketed male birth control will have to satisfy a safety profile closer to a cosmetic.

For women it's a different story--pregnancy is an actual serious heath threat to women, so safety and ethics can justify far greater side-effects.

I think there's an ethical argument that greater than cosmetic side-effects should be allowed for male birth control anyway, but it's not very compatible with typical medical research ethics. If you whittle away at it there is more than a bit of a male sexual entitlement involved in allowing female birth control with greater than cosmetic risk. Women can also easily avoid the health risks of both pregnancy and birth control by abstaining from sexual activity. There are two ways to explain why female birth control should be allowed vs abstinence. One is just that it's a lifestyle enhancement, but in that case a cosmetic safety profile would be appropriate. That's clearly not the case. The second is that there's an assumption of male entitlement to sex--men demand sex and women must comply. Therefore men demand women risk pregnancy. But in that case it seems just to accept greater-than-cosmetic risk for male birth control to reduce the harm of male sexual entitlement. But from what I know about FDA, that line of thought doesn't easily enter the ethical calculus.

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Mild: acne, man boobs, mood swings, sweating, pain, shrunk balls.

Severe: suicidal behavior, partial heart failure, sterility, depression, 12 more not specified emergencies that were deemed not related to the drug. This is out of merely 320 participants approved for the study.

Everything's in the paper: https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/101/12/4779/2765061

An independent Data Safety and Monitoring Committee (DSMC) was established by WHO/RHR and CONRAD before the start of the trial. At the scheduled meeting on January 17, 2011, the committee reviewed the interim analysis data and determined the study met all criteria for continuation. As part of WHO/RHR’s continuing monitoring review of all its ongoing studies, the department’s Research Project Review Panel (RP2), an external peer-review committee, met in March 2011, reviewed the same data and determined that, for safety reasons, recruitment should be stopped and enrolled participants should discontinue receiving injections and be transitioned to the recovery phase

The decision to discontinue the study had nothing to do with opinion of participants, or men in general.

The media on the event:

No, the Male Birth-Control Study Wasn’t Halted Because Men Couldn’t Handle the Side Effects

Gunter doesn’t think the misreporting will affect the research in the long run, but she worries it could prevent people from wanting to participate in further studies. “Is somebody going to not bother because everybody is going to jump on them because they didn’t do it the way the internet wanted them to do it? There are reasons to have discussions with men on assuming contraceptive responsibility, but not over a phase II study,” she added.

We still don't have male birth control — but no, it's not because men are wimps

The study was halted, but it wasn't because the men who participated in it were wimpy. It was halted because one of the two independent committees that were monitoring the trial's safety data was concerned about the high number of adverse events the men reported. And, yes, the rate of side effects in this study was higher than what women typically experience using hormonal birth control.

[–]thelajestic 5 points6 points7 points 5 years ago (14 children) | Copy Link

[–]QuenchlessGato 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

Tax collected from whole society is an indirect confirmation that the society approves of the cause for which this tax is collected. And the way taxes like this work is that it forces this approval. It's not about the fact that I pay $1 or $5 so some women gets a free abortion - it's about the fact that I have to pay for it at all. I'm ok with paying taxes so fire departments exists and roads are being built, goals that benefit everyone, are morally ok, etc. But I believe that abortions are very individualistic/selfish goals that essentially allow women to avoid any personal responsibility. I'm ok with tax-paid abortions in case of rape or due to medical reasons, but in case women gets an abortion simply because she doesn't want a kid, then I find it very wrong to force society to pay for this woman's whim.

I mean, would you be ok if - let's say - we enforced a tax on everyone so that we could give every incel free $1000 every month with no strings attached? Or if we gave every ex-prisoner tax-paid free $1000 every month for 10 years?

[–]poppy_blu 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago* (1 child) | Copy Link

K folks, a little education.

Abortions ARE NOT funded by tax payer dollars in the US. Some health care facilities that perform abortions get federal funding TO PROVIDE MEDICAL CARE PROVIDING THOSE FUNDS ARE NOT DIRECTLY USED FOR ABORTION. This includes medicaid payments for routine OB/GYN care. If abortions are being done it's either funded by donor money or revenue.

You can argue it's semantics but facilties that peform abortions always provide other medical services. Planned Parenthood for example, 75% of their services are routine OB/GYN care and counseling, not abortion.

So those of you who lobby for shuting down Planned Parenthood are actually affecting millions of women who use those places to get health care because they're uninsured or they dont have access to convenient care where they are.

When I was in college, waaaaay before there was an affordable care act where you could stay on your parents insurance after you turned 18, I went to Planned Parenthood clinics to get my regular ob/gyn exams and birth control prescriptions because it was all free. I recall one time there were a couple of protesters outside screeching at me and I'm like, I'm not even here for an abortion, fuckwad.

[–]QuenchlessGato 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]thelajestic 3 points4 points5 points 5 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

Tax collected from whole society is an indirect confirmation that the society approves of the cause for which this tax is collected.

No it isn't. I don't agree with several things my taxes go towards: inflated wages for politicians; their subsidised lunches & expenses; whatever the fuck the house of lords do; anything to do with the royal family etc etc etc. Plenty people in society also don't agree with these things and they're all fucking pointless but the taxes still go towards it.

But I believe that abortions are very individualistic/selfish goals that essentially allow women to avoid any personal responsibility.

So what would your alternative be? Because they aren't going to stop putting taxes toward the feeding, clothing, housing and educating these unwanted kids which would cost a shit ton more in the long run.

I mean, would you be ok if - let's say - we enforced a tax on everyone so that we could give every incel free $1000 every month with no strings attached? Or if we gave every ex-prisoner tax-paid free $1000 every month for 10 years?

But what would be the purpose of giving incels money? They don't need money. It isn't going to prevent an unwanted child, it's literally just giving money for.. what purpose exactly?

I think our taxes should absolutely go towards better lives for people who have been in prison and those who currently are. Big focus on rehabilitation and also plenty support when they leave prison; financial and otherwise. Going back into a financial dead end is a big cause of people re-offending, so spending that bit more tax money to prevent that happening will save money in the long term as it will prevent the huge costs associated with re-offending.

Also just FYI these are both inordinately shitty comparisons.

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[–]QuenchlessGato 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

No it isn't. I don't agree with several things my taxes go towards: inflated wages for politicians; their subsidised lunches & expenses; whatever the fuck the house of lords do; anything to do with the royal family etc etc etc. Plenty people in society also don't agree with these things and they're all fucking pointless but the taxes still go towards it.

We can definitely argue about how much or if at all taxes should cover such expenses but this is also the part of politics. Certain political parties have different views on whole lot of tax issues. It is no mystery that introducing new taxes is much easier than removing old ones. And at the end of the day, no matter what your political views are you are forced to pay your taxes. And if you contribute financially to something you are also an accomplice. That's the shitty world of taxes.

So what would your alternative be? Because they aren't going to stop putting taxes toward the feeding, clothing, housing and educating these unwanted kids which would cost a shit ton more in the long run.

I'm definitely much more willing to pay taxes to help the child rather than pay taxes for her abortion procedure.

But what would be the purpose of giving incels money? They don't need money. It isn't going to prevent an unwanted child, it's literally just giving money for.. what purpose exactly?

Oh, I can perfectly say that we as a society need to ease the life of those unfortunate among us and in case of incels such money would help soothe their pain and reduce the inequality in happiness in our society. And if they are happier then we can reduce suicide rates, medical costs due to psychological problems and perhaps they could use the money to drag themselves out of their predicament. See? I have a reasonable justification (and I don't care that you disagree with it). Now pay up your taxes. You and everyone else.

I don't believe in rehabilitation of criminals and I think that giving them free $$$ as a reward for being an ex-criminal is both morally wrong and a waste of money.

And my point is that we as a society should not shield individuals from their personal responsibility for their own actions.

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If you're pro-life you have to think that "life" trumps women and girls' suffering every time. Even if she was raped. Even if she's 14. Even if pregnancy will make her permanently disabled. Even if it will make her dependent on a man who's violent.

So if you think life > all of the suffering the world can contain for a woman or girl...

but then the same people make exceptions for: economy > life (coronavirus), lower taxes > life (maternal mortality), free market > life (in a stronger welfare state, less women would have to abort), revenge > life (death penalty), small gov't > life (industry regulations), gun fun > life (anti-gun control), profit > life (environmental regulations) bodily autonomy > life (organ donation voluntary) ....

I wonder why you value women and girls' suffering so little

(Answer: because they think it's sluts' suffering)

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[–]abaxeron✴️(Not Actually) Indian Programmer 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (15 children) | Copy Link

You mean left wing isn't for dekulakization, mass deportation, and elimination of the enemies of the people by NKVD?!

This is your level of argument.

Right wing is not pro gun because it values "gun fun" more than life; it's because if people can't defend themselves, they will all die when the state fails to defend them. Last time I checked, backyard swimming pools still were greater threat to children than guns.

Right wing is not pro free markets because it is against pensions, hospitals, and schools (do I have to quote Fred Bastiat? Yes I do); it's against delegating these services (that should always have been community based and community oriented) to the government; because if the government fails or collapses, all who rely on these services will suffer or die.

Right wing is not pro death penalty because it just loves to kill people. It's because sometimes prisoners escape and kill innocents.

Go on, justify NKVD death squads now.

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It's not an illusion. Covid isn't an illusion, guns being deadly isn't an illusion, the death penalty isn't an illusion

Left-wing doesn't care about all the working-class men who killed themselves because they were left with basically nothing after taxation.

They want a welfare state so no one is "left with nothing". A welfare state would also prevent abortions.

Left-wing doesn't care about people who left their guns at home before going into a "gun-free area" and got shot there to death by a criminal without the ability to defend themselves.

They want to make sure the criminal never had a gun in the first place.

Left-wing doesn't care about risks that prison guards face every day when dealing with exceptionally dangerous inmates.

They're against private prisons, in part because running them for profit creates terrible conditions, heightens violence, and costs lives

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[–]TheBookOfSeil 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

If you're pro-life you have to think that "life" trumps women and girls' suffering every time.

Not really, because "life" encompasses everyone, not just women and girls or their alleged suffering. The argument here is that people who are "pro-life" are for the life of the human developing in the womb. The mother's lives are usually not in danger at the time of the abortion, so scratch that one off the list.

Even if she was raped.

Rapes account for a small percentage of pregnancies, so I wish y'all would stop holding them up as examples for why women having consensual sex should have the option to abort.

Even if pregnancy will make her permanently disabled.

I'm sure that's also in the minority as well. We can talk about exceptions but these are just a distraction considering that if abortions were limited to certain exceptions, y'all would still be outraged anyway, which exposes the fact that it's not about protecting these people. It's about personal benefit.

Even if it will make her dependent on a man who's violent.

Is this even a thing anymore?..... like, seriously, you're using arguments that were mostly relevant in the 50's.

So if you think life > all of the suffering the world can contain for a woman or girl...

Exaggeration.

but then the same people make exceptions for: economy > life (coronavirus), lower taxes > life (maternal mortality), free market > life (in a stronger welfare state, less women would have to abort), revenge > life (death penalty), small gov't > life (industry regulations), gun fun > life (anti-gun control), profit > life (environmental regulations) bodily autonomy > life (organ donation voluntary) ....

Not sure about "gun fun" and "organ donation voluntary" though. Those don't sound like legitimate arguments. Matter of fact, it sounds like you're trying to lump a bunch of different people and political ideologies together in here.

I wonder why you value women and girls' suffering so little

This is an appeal to emotion. We don't have to do whatever is requested of us to mitigate "women and girls' suffering" just because they're women and girls. On what grounds are women entitled to no suffering, and especially suffering that they caused/are causing to themselves? Nobody is obligated to rescue people, much less from their own poor decisions. I personally don't discriminate by sex who I help, but I have less sympathy for people who create their own problems and then feel entitled to assistance from others.

(Answer: because they think it's sluts' suffering)

Nah. Mostly just dum-dums.

[–]kissmetilyouredrunk{<my pussy tastes like pepsi cola>} 6 points7 points8 points 5 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

Rapes account for a small percentage of pregnancies, so I wish y'all would stop holding them up as examples for why women having consensual sex should have the option to abort.

Yeah, that doesn't matter if you were the girl who was raped. So do you support a rape exception or not?

Abortions were limited to certain exceptions, y'all would still be outraged anyway

If you can think of times murdering kids is ok, you don't really think it's murdering kids. You just want to punish women.

Is this even a thing anymore?..... like, seriously, you're using arguments that were mostly relevant in the 50's.

Haha, look at the study that follows women denied abortions vs. those who got them. Many times more likely to live in poverty, be dependent on a man, and live with a violent man. Imagine not realizing that being forced to give birth takes away a woman's control over every aspect of her life—bodily, health, financial, career, relationship, safety

all of the suffering the world can contain for a woman or girl...

> Exaggeration.

Really? So why are women willing to risk their lives to get abortions? Why are they willing to pour bleach into their genitals? Why are they willing to skewer their internal organs with coathangers? Are you not aware of how many women died in horrific ways before Roe v. Wade?

Not sure about "gun fun" and "organ donation voluntary" though. Those don't sound like legitimate arguments.

Freedom from gun legislation > lives of children.

Organ donation - you're not obligated to give your body to anyone to save your life, even if it's your fault they need it. The only exception is if you're pregnant. Corpses get bodily autonomy; pregnant women don't.

On what grounds are women entitled to no suffering, and especially suffering that they caused/are causing to themselves? Nobody is obligated to rescue people

But you feel obligated to rescue "people" who are 2 cells, fascinating

Nah. Mostly just dum-dums.

Thanks for proving my point. Is she dumb if she was raped? Is she dumb if got pregnant after her father raped her? (Happened to a girl I know.) Is she dumb if the condom broke? Is she dumb if her boyfriend ripped her IUD out of her body, causing major internal damage? What if he dug the implant out her arm? What if she needed antibiotics and her pill didn't work? What if the pill gives her life-threatening blood clots? What if she isn't medically allowed to be on birth control? (I'm not.) What if her boyfriend rapes her without a condom? What if her boyfriend will make her and her kid homeless if she says no to condomless sex? You're entirely naive, not surprisingly

[–]TheBookOfSeil 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Yeah, that doesn't matter if you were the girl who was raped. So do you support a rape exception or not?

If it were up to me, I would support a rape exception, but the problem with that is that rape is often hard to prove, and if all that women needed was to say that they were raped, women would just lie and claim that they were raped, so although a rape exception sounds nice, it's not practical because of dishonesty.

If you can think of times murdering kids is ok, you don't really think it's murdering kids. You just want to punish women.

I can't really think of a time that murdering kids is okay, so what now? You just going to continue making excuses and silly claims about the tired old "yOu JuSt WanT tO puNiSh WoMeN!!1!!1!!!!1" trope?

Many times more likely to live in poverty,

Well it makes sense that women who can't afford abortions won't be able to get them.... How exactly does that tie into your point? Most women getting abortions are middle class women.

Imagine not realizing that being forced to give birth takes away a woman's control over every aspect of her life—bodily, health, financial, career, relationship, safety

Pfft. Women are not "forced to give birth" because women don't have control over pregnancy anyway. The fact that surgical abortions are considered necessary to abort is proof of that. If you have sex and get pregnant, you've started a process that ends at birth, not whenever you want it to.

Really? So why are women willing to risk their lives to get abortions? Why are they willing to pour bleach into their genitals?

Because they're dumb and irresponsible?

Are you not aware of how many women died in horrific ways before Roe v. Wade?

Her body, her choice. Nobody forced them to do those things.

But you feel obligated to rescue "people" who are 2 cells, fascinating

We should protect those who can't protect themselves from people meaning to harm them. Women don't have the rights to their children's lives, born or unborn.

Thanks for proving my point. Is she dumb if she was raped? Is she dumb if got pregnant after her father raped her? (Happened to a girl I know.) Is she dumb if the condom broke? Is she dumb if her boyfriend ripped her IUD out of her body, causing major internal damage? What if he dug the implant out her arm? What if she needed antibiotics and her pill didn't work? What if the pill gives her life-threatening blood clots? What if she isn't medically allowed to be on birth control? (I'm not.) What if her boyfriend rapes her without a condom? What if her boyfriend will make her and her kid homeless if she says no to condomless sex?

These are all rare occurrences, so thanks for proving my point. Without rare "what if" arguments, you've got little reason that women should be provided with an abortion.

You're entirely naive, not surprisingly

Projection.

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"The earth is overpopulated" is a pretty bad argument for abortion. As if animals actually have to keep themselves in check and the environment + "survival of the fittest" isn't in control.

Humans have grown beyond the control of nature and are actively damaging it, so that argument is crap.

Also, the personhood argument is illogical. You're either saying that "All humans are people, but we should get to choose who lives and who dies," or "Not all humans are people" followed by special requirements and exceptions/exemptions. The latter was the logic used to say that Blacks weren't people, and later on only accounted for "three-fifths" of a person.

You don't understand what "personhood" means. It takes more than simply being human to qualify for personhood; a person is any being that (1) possesses continuous consciousness over time; and (2) who is therefore capable of framing representations about the world, formulating plans and acting on them. Fetuses don't qualify, neither do humans in a permanent vegetative state like Terri Schaivo. Black humans do qualify, so stop bringing race into this.

[–]TheBookOfSeil 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

Humans have grown beyond the control of nature and are actively damaging it, so that argument is crap.

No we haven't lol. Where is this belief coming from? We are always at the mercy of nature because we exist inside of it, not separate from it.

You don't understand what "personhood" means. It takes more than simply being human to qualify for personhood;

According to what? Are you talking about legal personhood? Legality has nothing to do with nature. Law doesn't decide who is "a person" and who isn't. If all humans are people, then all humans are people. No if's, and's or but's.

a person is any being that (1) possesses continuous consciousness over time; and (2) who is therefore capable of framing representations about the world, formulating plans and acting on them.

This definition is basically describing adult humans since these "beings" would have to be able to communicate these "representations about the world" in order to prove that they have them, which would mean that, by this definition and logic, newborns and infants are not people, but if that were true, then why do we say they're people and treat them like people? I'll tell you why - because this argument is just a form of gate keeping. That way, we can say who is and isn't a person based on personal opinion and convenience.

[–]ViciousDextroShadeInfinite Evil 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

No we haven't lol. Where is this belief coming from? We are always at the mercy of nature because we exist inside of it, not separate from it.

Other animals aren't bulldozing the rainforests, polluting the atmosphere, and driving many species to extinction.

According to what? Are you talking about legal personhood? Legality has nothing to do with nature. Law doesn't decide who is "a person" and who isn't. If all humans are people, then all humans are people. No if's, and's or but's.

I don't care about laws, as the law no longer reflects what is just or intelligent and hasn't for a while. All humans are NOT people.

This definition is basically describing adult humans since these "beings" would have to be able to communicate these "representations about the world" in order to prove that they have them, which would mean that, by this definition and logic, newborns and infants are not people, but if that were true, then why do we say they're people and treat them like people? I'll tell you why - because this argument is just a form of gate keeping. That way, we can say who is and isn't a person based on personal opinion and convenience.

LOL now who's making leaps of logic? I never advocated for killing infants, just FETUSES, and if you don't know the difference than you aren't worth my time.

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Childbirth is an arbitrary line? That argument is 100% bullshit.

If child birth is your line, then your argument makes no sense, as there is nothing physically different from a child one minute before birth versus one minute after birth.

Do you know why death is a tragedy?

A lot of social conditioning.

It is because other people miss the person who died. Nobody misses somebody who was never born, nor should they.

Do you miss people that exist but whom you've never met before? Same logic there. Just because you never met them doesn't make them less important or their existence less valid. They exist whether you knew/miss them or not.

Fact of the matter here is that the pregnant women do not care about the life inside of them and that is what affects their perception of that life. You probably wouldn't care much if someone that you didn't like died, right? Neither do they. Does that make the one that died any less of a person, any less human, or any less important? Absolutely not, because if they're unimportant, not human, or not a person, then we can apply the same logic to anyone else to suit our personal views.

[–]ViciousDextroShadeInfinite Evil 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

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So you are arguing on behalf of organisms that no one wants and aren't even aware of their own existence just because your entirely arbitrary petty morality.

Sure, but that being said, your "entirely arbitrary petty morality" isn't any more valid than mine is, so just be aware of that. I'd rather argue for them than argue in favor of hedonistic retards whose idea of morality is mostly self-serving.

I laid out the definition of personhood, so no we cannot just apply the same logic to anyone. That is a logical fallacy.

What I said was that if you do not consider them "a person," important, or human simply because you don't think that they should be, then the same can be applied to you because you're not much different. The only difference is the time that you've had existing outside of the womb. If you can toss them into the dumpster based on whatever arbitrary definition you want to use, then anyone can just as easily throw you into the dumpster as well. Your life isn't more significant than theirs is just because you've spent more time outside of your mom's vagina, and the same goes for anyone else.

Abortion is a good thing.

Maybe to you, according to your sense of "entirely arbitrary petty morality."

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clears throat

So, most people are actually both pro choice and pro life. Most people believe there are circumstances where abortion is not okay, such as after certain point of fetal maturity, and situations where it is okay, such as if the pregnant person would die without it.

So, the debate is not if abortion is okay or not, it is, when is it okay and under which circumstances. Most people, (and the law) agree, that it is okay to tell pregnant people they cannot get an abortion at some point, bar extenuating circumstances.

This proves that abortion is not a question of bodily autonomy, otherwise it would be legal for pregnant people getting abortions at 9 months for any reason or no reason at all, as the pregnant persons's autonomy would trump the baby's life.

This means that the crux of the issue is fetal viability.

Being that this is the case, I believe that the maximum point at which you can get an abortion, barring extenuating circumstances should be 21 weeks, being that it is currently possible for a baby to survive at that point of birth. I also believe, that as science advances, we should look to further reduce the window of abortions to match the lowest possible fetal viability.

Oh yeah, and since, quote, "the vast majority of abortions are super early during pregnancy!"" People shouldnt have much of a problem with it. Its a very minor change in terms of how many people would be effected.

[–]TheBookOfSeil 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

This proves that abortion is not a question of bodily autonomy, otherwise it would be legal for pregnant people getting abortions at 9 months for any reason or no reason at all, as the pregnant persons's autonomy would trump the baby's life.

This means that the crux of the issue is fetal viability.

It's not about either of these, actually. It's about the government giving people an option to indirectly affect population increases or decreases so that the government won't have to address population control on its own. The details surrounding the ruling of Roe v. Wade and the SCOTUS tying abortion to the Constitution doesn't make much sense. There is no specificity in the articles pointing to something like abortion being categorized under them, so the legality of abortion boils down to the consensus of the SCOTUS. They very well could vote to overturn Roe v. Wade and it could very well happen, contrary to popular belief that abortion is cemented in the constitution. It is not. The text on the ruling literally says that if the government has an interest in protecting life, they could change it.

The abortion argument was just a power grab that was falsely made to look like the people were actually in control.

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My taxes pay for things that will never impact me - people who smoke

Smokers pay for their health through excise duties on tobacco products. Last time I checked, excise duties on tobacco and alcohol constitute around 5% of my country's federal budget. Since smokers and drinkers die earlier, their excess medical expenses are additionally compensated by lesser amount of retirement benefits they consume. I.e. it's quite probable that relative to you, a smoker or a drinker will totally pay for their medical expenses and for some of yours.

Female-specific products that constitute health hazard when consumed irresponsibly - are refined sugar and chocolate, causing all sorts of bad stuff, from bad teeth to cancer. No excise duties on those.

those with prostate cancer

Your taxes do not pay for prostate cancer. Financing of research and treatment of sex-specific cancers is so heavily tilted towards female-specific ones, that your taxes only partially pay for those. I.e. women partially pay for their specific medical conditions; men pay for men's AND women's medical conditions. In fact, most likely, your taxes barely cover the costs of your future retirement, but we'll generously close our eyes on this.

vasectomies

No universal coverage on demand; not anywhere that I checked. Speaking in feminist language, vasectomy is not recognized as a right.

viagra

Insurance coverage of viagra is abortionist lobby's myth. Even most private insurance companies don't cover it.

You aren't going to be charged a special abortion tax bump. The taxes remain the same

Yeah, we all know that when the government declares goods or services as rights, they just magically appear into existence for free.

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I mean, that’s the work around - off-label use

I was technically prescribed birth control in the mid-90s for acne, because it wasn’t legal to give a teenager birth control for sexual purposes under the military healthcare at the time (this was pre-TriCare)

Chantix was originally an anti-depressant of a different brand name, and they noticed that a side effect of the depression drug was that people stopped smoking. So all of a sudden a bunch of smokers were prescribed depression drugs (my dad was actually in a clinical trial for it before it was approved for non-smoking reasons and renamed Chantix for that market)

So, yes, it is legal to prescribe. Doctors prescribe off label everyday

So, yes. Generic Viagra is covered by Medicare, but the rule is that it can’t go in for sexual or erectile dysfunction alone. A quick google shows that it can be prescribed for “athletic performance enhancement,” FFS

[–]abaxeron✴️(Not Actually) Indian Programmer -1 points0 points1 point 5 years ago* (15 children) | Copy Link

Chantix was originally an anti-depressant of a different brand name, and they noticed that a side effect of the depression drug was that people stopped smoking.

HOLY SHIYTE, this is some sweet history lesson :D Seriously, thanks; I didn't know, and it's a valuable info!

Generic Viagra is covered by Medicare

"I'm a wamaman and mah taxes pay for boners" is still a weak argument on a number of fronts. First, aside from 2-5% of men who are exclusively homosexual boners exist for women's pleasure. Second, retirement benefits alone transfer a sum crawling closer to 100 billion from men to women every year. Meanwhile, the estimate of money spent on unlawfully prescribed boner drugs is known and "$3,107,200 in gross drug costs for ED drugs approved only for the treatment of sexual or erectile dysfunction", out of "approximately $133 billion in gross drug costs included in sponsors’ PDE data for calendar years (CY) 2007 and 2008" (source) Data's a little bit old but gives some understandings on scales and scopes; in year 2008, there were around 1.2 million abortions in the US; for "boner money" and "abortion money" to be comparable, abortions should have costed less than 3 dollars in expenses, each. Thus, "boner money" constitute literally two tenths of a percent of a percent of overall spendings most of which are spent on women's well-being and provided by male taxpayers / "insurance contributors". Even if ED prescriptions go unregistered and not reflected by that sum, last time I checked, estimated lifetime ED in men was even rarer than lifetime abotions in women (despite, y'know, many women having more than one).

And seriously, I have strong suspicion that women unlawfully milk state-sponsored health insurance by order of magnitude worse than men, ranging from free antidepressants that they don't realistically need to free boob jobs that they don't realistically need (the latter being provided in UK if you manage to ~~bribe~~convince psychologist that your natural boob shape causes you sads and distress).

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[–]abaxeron1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Does that count?

Depends for what:

Physicians also might be more likely to prescribe off-label medications for patients facing life-threatening or terminal medical conditions for which there are limited or no FDA-approved alternatives ["Doc, if I don't get a boner my wife will kill me!"]

Another reason that off-label prescribing is common is that there is limited evidence of the effectiveness of “on-label” use in certain patient populations frequently excluded from clinical trials, such as children, pregnant women, the elderly, and psychiatric patients [your typical erectile dysfunction patients. All of them basically.]

The rest of the article goes into how to get a demented person's consent for non-FDA-approved antipsychotic treatment.

The article describes prescription of drugs that were not approved by FDA for a specific use.

Slidenafil citrate (viagra) WAS approved by FDA for use as an oral therapy for ED.

The article never touches on legality of prescription and insurance coverage of drugs against direct, stated, unambiguous exceptions in Social Security Act.

So, to answer if that counts, I'd say it's better than nothing.

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[–]thelajestic 2 points3 points4 points 5 years ago (11 children) | Copy Link

Your taxes do not pay for prostate cancer.

A proportion of my taxes pay for prostrate cancer, as do everyone else's.

No universal coverage on demand; not anywhere that I checked. Speaking in feminist language, vasectomy is not recognized as a right.

Vasectomies are available on the NHS here.

Insurance coverage of viagra is abortionist lobby's myth. Even most private insurance companies don't cover it.

Viagra is available on prescription here. Prescriptions are free. Ergo, my taxes pay for some dude's boner.

Yeah, we all know that when the government declares goods or services as rights, they just magically appear into existence for free.

Yeah, obviously things get reallocated and loved around. However far less tax needs reallocated to abortion than it would to clothe, feed, house and educate an unwanted kid.

[–]See_Carolus_Rise 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]thelajestic 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Eh. I just don't care about paying taxes. I've benefited all my life from education and healthcare that's free at point of use, heavily subsidised dental care and optician services etc. We do this great baby box for people expecting a kid, so everyone gets a box of essentials to start off with (and the box can be used for the baby to nap in) as well as a set amount of hours free at nursery for kids. Life is objectively better if you don't have to worry about the financial impact of getting ill or you can go into higher education because you want to and not worry about crippling debt, or you can keep your job because childcare doesn't cost more money than you earn. I feel like everyone should have those opportunities and I'd happily pay higher taxes if it came with even more benefits and better services to help those that need it most.

And I'm sorry to hear about your dad. But in terms of inheritance tax that seems a really low % that they've taken in the grand scheme of things.

[–]abaxeron✴️(Not Actually) Indian Programmer 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

A proportion of my taxes pay for prostrate cancer, as do everyone else's.

You pay 10k, your male buddy pays 10k in taxes. 18k of collected taxes get spent on research and treatment of breast, ovarian, and uterus cancers; 2k get spent on prostate, testicle, and penile cancer. "I pAiD FoR You-" No you did not.

Vasectomies are available on the NHS here. Viagra is available on prescription here.

Hmmm what a reliable and solid set of sources; I'm basically crushed.

However far less tax needs reallocated to abortion than it would to clothe, feed, house and educate an unwanted kid.

Kids tend to grow up and get a job, especially if they're male. In fact, Ireland was one of VERY FEW OECD countries that managed to gradually lower their personal income taxes between late 1990s and late 2010s. Weird, considering all those unwanted kids running around while abortion ban was in place.

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If they’re pretty sure but can’t definitively rule it out at 24 weeks,

No. Scientists know for sure that fetuses feel pain at 24 weeks and beyond.

What scientists don’t know is if they can feel pain before 24 weeks

is even more asinine. Of course 1 year olds feel pain.

This was your logic. You were the one claiming that if the baby can’t tell you that they feel pain, then they don’t feel pain 🤷‍♂️

Not to mention the financial/social/career consequences of having a child before you’re ready for one.

So let’s just allow women to murder another human being because they couldn’t keep their legs closed. Gotcha

If you wanna reduce the suffering of innocent lives

We’re talking about human lives here. Stay on topic

Leave women’s reproductive rights alone thanks

The right to murder another human being?

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How is aborting a rape baby analogous to self defense? If anything it's more like revenge killing (which is illegal), and even then not really because you're killing someone who was in no way responsible for the crime committed against you.

I'm pro choice but I'm sympathetic to the pro life argument and I understand why some people think it's murder. What I don't understand is the argument that it's okay to kill someone because their dad raped you.

I can even get making an exception if the woman's life is in danger. That's closer to self defense imo. But there is no way to make an exception for rape that's consistent with valuing innocent life.

If abortion is murder then it shouldn't matter how the baby was conceived, it doesn't deserve to die for its father's sins. If the argument then becomes "well the woman didn't choose to be raped" then it seems like your position on abortion is less about the life of the fetus and more about holding women accountable for behavior you deem irresponsible.

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I agree except for the death part.

If mom is going to die, the baby will probably die too. Thus it's better to save a life. So save mom's because she can have another child or adopt.

The rape one is tricky because currently, a woman can rape a man or a minor, get pregnant and carry the child to term. The rape victim would be required to pay child support.

In the interest of equality, a woman should not be allowed to terminate a pregnancy that's the result of rape if she could force a rape victim to pay for the consequence of her crimes.

If you're concerned about it being murder then women shouldn't have a choice either.

If bodily autonomy is an issue, and if the tech were available, would it be better if somehow they could allow the child to survive outside the womb until nine months? Such as in some sort of an incubation chamber or in another woman's womb?

Because then the child wouldn't be murdered and her bodily autonomy would not be violated.

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Comments

EQUALITY!!

Title	Abortion Mega Thread
Author	AutoModerator
Upvotes	10
Comments	1286
Date	February 28, 2021 9:00 PM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/luqc1j/abortion_mega_thread/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/abortion-mega-thread.1192033 https://theredarchive.com/post/1192033