What is considered “High Standards” when it comes to physical appearance for women?

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Jesus H Krist.

Look, I like them curvy so a little too much weight is more attractive than too little.

But you have to have a cut off point, man!

If:

you cannot lift her without hurting your back/needing a forklift, she's too heavy.
if she's considering a motorized wheelchair but she's not disabled, she's too heavy.
if you have to cover her in flour and aim for the wet spot to know where your dick goes, she's too heavy.

I've been downvoted before, possibly by angry, overweight women for typing stuff like this, but I assure you all, I am down with the Thickness. But just as an anorexic woman is unhealthy and way, waaaay too thin, the opposite extreme is also too much. Women think men only want slender women:

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/mike-alvear/what-types-of-bodies-do-men-prefer_b_4466912.html

The results? Women overestimate male preferences for slenderness. Constantly. Consistently. In nearly every study. This phenomenon baffles researchers because it’s completely at odds with the prevailing theory of how men and women pair up.

But men are rather forgiving when it comes to weight. Sir Mixalot wasn't lying about his desire for big butts. There are planty of men who go crazy for thick and curvy. It's when landwhales call their body type curvy and get rejected that they think men want skinny women. They project their insecurities onto men then want men to change to desire them instead of losing the weight.

If only changing an entire gender's instincts were that simple.

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there's an across the board human tendency to think we're more attractive than we are. very, very few people will admit they're not a great catch but many of us just aren't. men do this, women do this, everyone.

most men will claim to have certain standards for what they want in a girlfriend, but most end up settling for something that doesn't meet all of them. same goes for women... what you see listed as requirements on a chick's tinder profile and what she ends up with are night and day. everyone settles.

as for what's considered "high standards" I'd imagine it depends on your class and where you live. where I live most chicks aren't slim, feminine, young, hot, sober, and childless but that's what most men will say they want. me included. maybe like 3-5% of available women fit that description, but most men still end up finding girlfriends who they can be decently happy with. point being that what a guy describes as his standards and what he's willing to settle for are usually pretty different. same goes for women.

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My region is almost certainly a factor, which is a shame, because I while I love the area, I am unshakably convinced that I must leave in order to a.) cast a wider net, and b.) be more free to reinvent myself socially. My reputation here is as a nice guy, and I'm probably never going to shake that among my social group.

I don't really like getting into specifics of where I live on Reddit, that's why I didn't answer the other poster who asked for a picture. It is just bad, though - I'll go out to coffee shops or to the bars and maybe see one or two women that aren't either really old or really fat. They are, shockingly, taken. I travel to semi-major or even major urban areas nearby and... the story is radically different.

I'm in the midst of a job search at the moment, and while I'm not particularly wedded to my current city (in fact the prospect of a move is actually quite exciting to me, my life needs it)... I have to actually GET that job before I pick someplace to bounce to. There's a possibility of an internship in New York City, which kind of tickles me.

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Whether it's more "egalitarian" in practice doesn't mean it's intended to be that way. Attraction does not abide by some notion of fairness. For men or women. It's instinctual.

I didn't suggest that it does - I said that there's a double standard by which men select mates that gets heavily policed ("men are so shallow! fat- and slut-shaming is bad! men are pigs!"), that basically exists in the same way for women, but isn't policed ("you go girl! you pick whoever you want! live you life for you, not for some MAN!") whatsoever.

Reasons for attraction aren't egalitarian, but our social responses to them certainly can be... and aren't. Men take the brunt of the blame for "bad mate selection preferences," women virtually none, despite women's preferences being not altogether that different and women having far more buying and reproductive selection power than men.

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[–]the_calibre_catNo Pill Man 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

I don't really know what you mean - who is doing the blaming here?

Friends in person usually will support each other, even if they don't like their friend's choice of significant other. But, in the media and in particular social media, I next to never see dudes posting about how shitty women's mate selection is (doing so is a recipe for sexual and social suicide). I see that pretty damn commonly from my female friends - about how "Real Men™ do x" or some feminist critique about how men "are part of the problem for engaging in x behavior."

About the only thing comparable I see from men are more general statements about how being lonely sucks, or how it hurts to be a decent person yet not get noticed - and I see those posts from literally one make friend of mine and he'll get like two likes from people who are probably just taking pity on him or other lonely, thirsty dudes who are reading between the lines. The women complaining regularly get numerous likes, mostly from other women, and then plenty of self-loathing comments from my bluer friends who are virtue-signaling their agreement so as to "not be one of THOSE guys."

That doesn't even get into mass media like Vox, The Guardian, the New York Times, etc who regularly part articles about the problematic behaviors of men, but next to never cover the fact that women fuck and make babies with dudes who exhibit those "toxically masculine" behaviors, etc.

And then, yeah, I've actually had some conversations with my female friends. I made the mistake of expressing my loneliness once, and I'm pretty sure that's just an instant turn off for women, and I remember discussing my mate preferences with a friend of mine, and I was honest with her that I just really didn't want to date a fat girl. She got super defensive and went off on fat shaming, to which I replied that I wasn't advocating being a dick to fat people, I was just stating my own sexual preferences, that sex was important in a relationship, and that it wouldn't be good with a fat person and I couldn't switch off my lack of attraction to that. This was with this girl, who was dating a guy who WAS a dick to fat people, and who she literally picked because - in her words, he was "fine af."

So yeah, I'm pretty jaded about society's signaling with regards to men's sexuality. Men's sexual preferences are policed and seen as "shallow" and bad, while literally the same sexual preferences are seen as empowering and liberating when women pursue them. That's some bullshit.

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And it'll look about the same as it does now. Because we're living out the previous generation's tendencies to do the exact same thing we're doing now. It's not like there are a bunch of geniuses walking around.

No, and one generation isn't enough to yield meaningful results. Either way, I'm not going to commit myself to a lifetime of unhappiness just to push my genes forward in time, and I'm a guy that takes that shit pretty seriously. I'm willing to commit cosmic suicide than waste the cosmic privilege of life and sentience in servitude to someone that I guess I should be "thanking" for even giving me a passing glance.

Thanks, there's a huge world out there, incredible sights and adventures to be had, and meaning to be drawn from them. I would love to carry on my genes and have a little half-me running around that I could imperfectly show the ropes to - but not with someone that I can't feel fulfilled with. She doesn't have to be perfect, but there are some hard lines that I have to draw by knowing and being realistic about myself.

I'm not gonna be attracted to a fat person, in a perfect world personality would be the only thing that matters, but this isn't a perfect world and I can no more negotiate my attraction to people than women can. It would be a disservice to my life and a disservice to hers, a waste of both of our time, for me to pity accept that kind of a pull.

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Because by definition average (5) means your considerably better looking than huge percentage of men.

Yep, I've considered the implications of that.

Unless you subscribe to the theory that all women who are 2s and above are harem clustering around the 8,9 and 10 males. Which has no basis in reality.

You and I largely disagree with each other here. They'll come around to me, maybe, at age 30 after having failed to lock down the 8-10s. I've seen it firsthand enough that I can't really believe it's because "I'm boring" or some other intrinsic trait to my outward presence that puts women off when they consistently go for the brash, taller dudes with full heads of hair and less regard for boundaries. My friend's texts and Snapchats are listed with women being the most recent conversations, and I pretty much don't have a chance when we're hitting the bars together.

Hell, there was even the party we went to where I was determined to not sit in the corner and was going to talk to someone, walked up to the cutest girl I saw and we immediately hit it off. Then my friend joined the conversation and she'd forgotten about me in minutes. I'm sorry, but the idea that looks aren't hugely important to women as well is, as far as I'm concerned, a spectacular lie. They are as, if not more important. I've gotten the "I'm just not in a place to be intimate right after my breakup" only to have that same girl fuck my friend a week later, as if a week was all the difference in the world.

And THEN there's that OKCupid and Tinder data, where women rated men's looks such that... pretty much only the 8-10's were rated as above average, while 1-6,s were basically regarded as the same. Like, between anecdotes and data, there isn't a whole lot of evidence that looks aren't a huge part of the reason why women select who they select.

No, it wasn't the week, it was that she was attracted to him, and not attracted to me. Which is her right, but doesn't fucking suck any less.

[–] poppy_blu 4 points 5 points 6 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Look I don’t mean to minimize your pain. It sucks to be trying to reach a goal and you’re met with nothing but frustration. I empathize.

But what I’m sensing here based on what you wrote is that you’re seem to be going after a specific type of woman and that could be part of your problem. You mentioned 8-10s. Is that all you go after? If yes do you think it’s reasonable strategy for you, a 5, and for you to feel that is somehow unfair that women who are out of your league aren’t interested in you?

You also like many TRPs seem to be pursuing party girl types. This is similar to other stories I’ve read where these interactions seems to suggest a context of the party scene where lots of casual sex is happening. In that context, literally anything goes. In that context, Chad has his share of strike outs too. I doubt you’ll believe that but trust me as someone who spent a good part of her life around Chads (as an observer, I’ve been an athlete most of my life and Chads were commonplace among my peer group), I can confirm its true.

And did it ever maybe occur to you that your friend wasnt telling the truth about fucking that girl? Cause you know men lie about sex all the time. I’ve been the subject of those lies more times than I can count, as have other women here.

I know you’re not going to hear any of this but I think you’re being too hard on yourself and/or you’re focusing on the wrong thing that is making women reject you.

Also get some uglier friends. JK

[–] the_calibre_cat No Pill Man 3 points 4 points 5 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

But what I’m sensing here based on what you wrote is that you’re seem to be going after a specific type of woman and that could be part of your problem. You mentioned 8-10s. Is that all you go after? If yes do you think it’s reasonable strategy for you, a 5, and for you to feel that is somehow unfair that women who are out of your league aren’t interested in you?

No, not whatsoever. I see women like that, and obviously I'm attracted to them, and I usually don't even try. I probably should try more, but really, I'm pretty confident that that's just not in the cards, and I'm okay with that. Again, I've really internalized that you get to pick who you can pick, and that goes for men and women.

You also like many TRPs seem to be pursuing party girl types. This is similar to other stories I’ve read where these interactions seems to suggest a context of the party scene where lots of casual sex is happening. In that context, literally anything goes.

I actually kind of disagree here. I'm like a fish out of water. Like, I'll get down, I can dance like a motherfucker and I can drink some mofos under the table, but... shit dude, I'm a programmer. That isn't my scene, and probably never will be. Unfortunately, that scene has a social event going on probably four out of seven days a week, whereas Comic Con or some other nerd gathering occurs once a year, so that's frustrating.

In that context, Chad has his share of strike outs too. I doubt you’ll believe that but trust me as someone who spent a good part of her life around Chads (as an observer, I’ve been an athlete most of my life and Chads were commonplace among my peer group), I can confirm its true.

I don't doubt this, women just generally aren't as easy and willing as men are, which is understandable. But while Chad's average might be under 50%, it's probably... over 5%.

And did it ever maybe occur to you that your friend wasnt telling the truth about fucking that girl? Cause you know men lie about sex all the time.

Possibly, but it wasn't he who told me. I could be wrong entirely, but it was really my own inferences that led me to believe that. I don't really trust that friend very far anymore, and I actively don't really go tail-chasing with him anymore. Not that I get to look at a hot girl and call "dibs!" but, I think if there's a person you're legitimately into and they've observed your efforts and listened to your frustrations surrounding your efforts, a friend should respect that you're pretty serious about that person, and put a boundary between themselves and that person. He did not, and I know of at least one other individual where that took place with the same friend.

Maybe I chase some lame bitches, but damn if it isn't a little disheartening to try and be a kind, honest, real fucking person only to have this guy who literally throws up this veneer to get pussy... get... pussy. Like I'm pretty blue pill in terms of my day to day interactions with people, and that's why I'm purple-to-red on here - because I see dudes behave red, and they kill it. I see dudes behave blue... and... they don't. And it's not like I want to be casual for the rest of my life, but shit, a little no strings attached fun would be nice and validating.

I know you’re not going to hear any of this but I think you’re being too hard on yourself and/or you’re focusing on the wrong thing that is making women reject you.

Well, I'm certainly not in any sort of attractive mental state, and while I said earlier that in the past, when I was in a better mental state, I didn't do any better... in retrospect that's not actually totally true. I did do better. No job and living with a "friend" of mine who, while fun to hang with, doesn't really seem to give a shit about upholding his word despite having been friends for well over ten years, like, shit. That does something to your psyche, and it doesn't make it all happy happy joy joy.

Also get some uglier friends. JK

You jest, but... this seems like a not-invalid strategy, shitty as it may be. :/

[–] poppy_blu 1 point 2 points 3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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Ugh, dude, these posts. Please don't get angry but honestly I have this experience every now and again of reading through an exchange like this here and just ending up sad and baffled.

First of all, you don't see it, do you? I mean, there's no reason you would. The whole nature of being in a fucked-up mindset is that the person in it usually doesn't see it. Go listen to the now-overdone 'This Is Water speech by David Foster Wallace.

ANYWAY. The sadness, my friend. The defeatism. It is wafting off you. And whilst that is almost certainly hurting your chances with women (humans can smell this shit on each other and it is anti-attractive) it's just on another, more important level, not good for you. I mean, you seem to spend a lot of time in this mindset, dwelling on this. 'This' being the not-being-Chad situation. That's not good. You gotta get some other shit to occupy your brain. Shit that isn't not-being-Chad and isn't hot-laydees-how-can-I-bang-them.

And then there's the being a mild-mannered programmer and hanging out in bars/participating in the party scene. WHY do you guys do this to yourselves? It just so clearly seems like not the place for guys like you, and I'm not surprised it isn't really working out for you. The one place on earth where Chad truly rules is that scene. So why are you, not-Chad, choosing to spend your time there? It just seems like such a waste of time.

You know what I always want to say to dudes like you? Forget women. Not forever, but for, say, a year. Forget women. Learn a skill. Something physical. Doesn't have to be a sport, although it could be. Could be something with your hands. Something that isn't programming. Get good enough at it that it becomes a source of self-esteem (REAL self-esteem, not the kind you get from going on the RP sub and wanking about how shitty women are).

Having a real skill is so beneficial. It will help you see that there's a whole world and whole host of experiences out there that have nothing to do with whether or not you can bed a 9. And it will also, when the time comes, help you with women. Because we can smell genuine confidence and self-belief the way we can smell the bad stuff.

And FWIW, no one here says looks aren't important to women. They obviously are. And you seem to have picked a social milieu that is highly looks-focused (not the greatest idea for an average guy). Looks matter. But other things matter, too. A lot. And reading through this exchange, I am in no way convinced your looks are the problem.

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something subjective

It's not that subjective. There's a reason we have evolved in a certain way. There is a direction that evolution can take to optimise the state of humanity. There are aesthetics and values we have adopted as a society that reflect, or attempt to reflect this. Trying to understand what the right genes are to pass on is definitely not a fruitless waste of time. It is in fact, a legitimate scientific subject area that should be explored further and more time dedicated towards understanding. If you don't believe there are objective standards of desirability in mating selection, either you're not using you're noggin' or you are deliberately obfuscating these facts because you believe they are unethical, sexist, etc. It's not unethical or sexist to look for a partner who matches your levels of desirability and would make a great parent for your offspring. It is, in fact, the natural thing.

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[–] SRU_91 0 points 1 point 2 points 8 years ago * (14 children) | Copy Link

No.

That is a black and white way of looking at it (see black and white fallacy). And again it is based on your theory that attraction is completely (hence the black or white aspect) subjective, which I have already addressed: it is only somewhat subjective, it's a grey area. In our society, women are rewarded for hypergamy because men have all round lower standards and body positivity, sex positivity, feminism, etc. encourages women to see themselves as desirable no matter what and date who they like. It isn't that way for men.

And this is exactly the enemy of joy I see as the worst part of this ranking people thing.

Going for someone who's blatantly attracted to you and giving off obvious signals is one thing. If you would otherwise have considered them "out of your league" then go for it! But chasing around after folks who are obviously out of your league and them giving no signals whatsoever is another thing entirely.

[–] PennnyLame 2 points 3 points 4 points 8 years ago (13 children) | Copy Link

[–] SRU_91 0 points 1 point 2 points 8 years ago (12 children) | Copy Link

what does that objective rating give you? Anger? Nothing?

Are you saying that negative emotions are always unhealthy? Negative emotions are what allow us to realise certain situations in our life are not fair and that we are not getting what we deserve. Negative emotions are what drive us to overcome those obstacles and get what the things we should be getting in the first place. Good people that work hard deserve good things. It's ok to feel negative about some things, like when you didn't get the promotion that you worked hard for and it went to someone who really didn't deserve it. Or when you did something that was truly amazing and nobody recognised your accomplishments. Saying all these things are subjective is so degrading to the people who went out of their way to do something positive. It's reactionary, it's anti-humanistic ... it's unethical.

Good men deserve good women and not in a rapey sense, or even an obligatory/dutiful sense. Good men deserve good women who genuinely admire them and don't feel obligated to do that. Feeling negative about this is something because it drives us to move forward and work towards achieving what we should have already gotten. These are basic facts about human emotion that society desperately needs to learn. Negativity =/= entitlement. Negativity =/= reactionary. Positivity isn't always a good, healthy thing.

And how many men will ignore those IOI’s because they are sure they are not good enough for the girl giving them? It’s a really silly way to opt out of a risk that could make him happy.

They focus their energy on women in their league of attraction. When excellent opportunities arise it will be more natural to take them. If they are chasing after the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow, they don't deserve it anyway.

Besides, excellent women should be reserved for excellent men. I don't see what the problem is if an average guy misses an opportunity. That's just going to hurt the excellent men if they can't get excellent women because they're going to average guys (and maybe excellent women too if in years to come she thinks "oh, I could have done better. shit.").

[–] PennnyLame 1 point 2 points 3 points 8 years ago * (11 children) | Copy Link

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[–] SRU_91 0 points 1 point 2 points 8 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Anything can be compared if the parameters for comparison are clearly outlined. Apples and oranges for example, may be compared on the basis of their citric acid content, general sweetness, climate requirements, etc. In this case, it was not meant to be an analogous circumstance nor to demonstrate how losing your job is the same as losing your fiance. The intent was to highlight the meaning people attribute to different areas of life and how loss is often psychological and detrimental to one's well-being. You got what was on the box, so it doesn't help your arguments to play dumb.

You are not answering the question so I am guessing the answer is “no.”

I said it may help him if the anger pushes him in the right direction, to say "enough is enough, how am I going to make this work for me?" Some people use negativity in the wrong way: they become pessimistic and lethargic. Or some people go on killing sprees, like the Isla Vista Killer. Whether negativity can help you depends on whether you can channel it into positivity. So my answer is not "yes" or "no", it's "maybe". Again, this is an example of inflexible/black and white thinking from you.

[–] PennnyLame 1 point 2 points 3 points 8 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

[–] SRU_91 0 points 1 point 2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Because you focussed on the transactional quality of career, you didn't understand my point. Obviously I wasn't comparing the emotional stability to financial stability. I was comparing the sense of fulfilment, doing or being with someone you love in the two scenarios. Because you focus on the differences, you ignored the similarities.

The black and white aspect is that you think it is completely subjective which is a nihilistic, reductionist point of view and lazy as well because you don't want to do the kind of work that's required to find objectivity. I have conceded that there are both subjective and objective aspects to attractiveness. I have looked to find a way of thinking that relies on fuzzy logic rather than black & white truths about our world and that is difficult to grasp yet is ultimately more rewarding intellectually and actually presents us with a more accurate vision than what we can see through the limited lense of nihilistic reductionism.

To say, "well it's all subjective, story over" - that is the easy thing to say, the thing that doesn't require working on or analysing your beliefs, the perspective that will only ever give us a one dimensional view of the world. Great atrocities have happened in human history because dictators conceded that "ethics were subjective". You're just saying this about aesthetics but this view point can lead to greater evils.

[–] PennnyLame 1 point 2 points 3 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–] SRU_91 0 points 1 point 2 points 8 years ago * (0 children) | Copy Link

I think you believe emotional stability is something granted through relationships as payment for good behavior/performance.

No, I think it is granted for having attractive, virtuous or desirable traits wherein the attractiveness or virtue is seen as desirable. The symbiotic bond is there because the partners genuinely appreciates each other's company. GMs are not Nice Guys^TM: I already mentioned that GMs deserve a partner who find them sexy, desirable and love them spontaneously, not out of obligation or duty.

I believe that buying into the notion of what one “deserves” is a thief of joy

That's because you are confusing my views about what attractive virtues men deserve with some kind of idea about transactional intent. I too value spontaneous romantic and sexual relationships where the partners truly dig and crave each other. I believe that truly good attractive people do deserve this.

unhappy men becoming angry and jaded.

Being a virgin into your late twenties is what leads to the cynicism. A lot of these guys are blue pilled or whatever and think they can pretend like they don't deserve better because they want to be feminist. But they know deep down how much it hurts and how much they have been betrayed by the world. That's because it is not a belief. It is an instinct, a gut reaction, a deep sense of knowing truth, just and rationality from falsity, injustice and irrationality.

When men let go of this and actually pursue what they want, not what they are told to want not what they “deserve”

When we deserve something good, we certainly want it. When we want something we don't deserve, it is not for us. That would not be true, just or rational because good things should only be there for good people.

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[–] Drippyskippy Monk 0 points 1 point 2 points 8 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

You're just being a smartass,

This is your opinion, which is fair, but if you read through my posts you would realize that I actually have a point. Do you not think preferences when it comes to attraction is important then? Clearly, Penny didn't consider this aspect of rejection with her post.

their reply was about a situation including a man an a woman

Yes, and I even provided an example between a man and a woman, might want to read my posts before you start making judgement about other people and insulting them.

or at least 2 people who are attracted to each other's sex

I fail to see where OP mentioned this. It seems to me your reading too much into someone else's post in order to make an argument against me.

And you also would not have had to resort to a logical fallacy - disregarding information that was implied given the context of the reply,

This is also your opinion. I can tell you I took all the context available into consideration. I looked at her post and disagreed. Mainly, that just because you get rejected, it doesn't necessarily mean your standards are too high.

bringing up a situation that's entirely irrelevant to the discussion

Please explain to me how referring to rejection and preferences is irrelevant about a discussion about other people not wanting to fuck you (rejection).

Are you going to provide me with actual answers to these questions or should I go watch a hamster video instead?

[–] [deleted] 0 points 1 point 2 points 8 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I'm not 100% convinced that you're not a troll, but fine, I'll bite.

This is your opinion, which is fair, but if you read through my posts you would realize that I actually have a point.

Yeah, a point that you brought into the discussion while literally no one was arguing against it. Which is exactly why I think you're being a smartass. Disclaimer, added this after writing everything else: okay, never mind, I get a feeling that you just misunderstood what Penny as saying, making you seem like a smartass.

Are you going to provide me with actual answers to these questions or should I go watch a hamster video instead?

Question. Questions end in a question mark, so besides the one I quoted you only asked me one question. As for the answer: yes, of course preferences are important to attraction as attraction is almost exclusively preferences, I'm not sure why you're trying to get everyone to admit that though, because literally no one was denying that fact and that wasn't what the discussion was about at all until you brought it up.

Yes, and I even provided an example between a man and a woman,

Again a single scenario example to support arguments against a point Penny wasn't even trying to make, as they've been trying to make clear to you from the get go. You're trying to use extreme examples trying to disprove a correct but very poorly worded blanket statement.

It's kinda like if I'd tell you that people generally marry someone of the same nationality (pulling that out of my ass but I need an example), and you'd try to disprove it by saying "but what about that person who moved abroad when they were 3 so they didn't". In that case the claim that circumstances matter is indeed correct (duh) , because circumstances are different for certain outlier groups, but it doesn't disprove the point.

I fail to see where OP mentioned this. It seems to me your reading too much into someone else's post in order to make an argument against me.

That's exactly what I was talking about when I said understanding implications is part of being intelligent. OP did not explicitly mention sexuality, but they mentioned men's standards for women. Since not otherwise mentioned, it's safe to assume the status quo (man attracted to women, woman attracted to men, i.e. at least a measure of potential for mutual attraction). The potential for mutual attraction is important cause if you take that away by, say, making one person homosexual and the other straight, you have an entirely different discussion. Therefore potential for mutual attraction is important to the discussion. Didn't mention it in my snarky reply, but deductive reasoning skills like that is also a generally accepted requirement to qualify as intelligent where I'm from.

This is also your opinion.

Logical fallacies are a matter of context and are a fact, not an opinion.

I can tell you I took all the context available into consideration.

As I've been taught a person should do when debating, because if you don't miscommunication happen and you get nowhere (case in point: you and Penny). Considering that we're in a debate sub, I figured I'd do so to avoid any miscommunications like the one between you and Penny, which resulted from the fact that you didn't while you should have in order to fully understand their comment.

I looked at her post and disagreed. Mainly, that just because you get rejected, it doesn't necessarily mean your standards are too high.

Which is fair enough, and you're right, and I'm sure Penny would agree on a case to case basis. But since you didn't take all context into consideration you missed the point they were actually trying to make, and argued against a point they weren't making at all. For the record, with all implied information from the context included Penny's comment would read something like:

Assuming that all requirements like sex, race, and any other deal breakers out of your control are accounted for, if a significant number of the people you want to fuck still don't want to fuck you- your standards are too high.

Which brings me to this:

Please explain to me how referring to rejection and preferences is irrelevant about a discussion about other people not wanting to fuck you (rejection).

Now that I've spelled out for you what Penny's actual point was, with all context taken into consideration, can you see how what you are saying is not at all relevant to what they are saying?

You are assuming a blank slate where there may or may not be potential attraction between two people, whereas Penny rather seems to be implying that the two people could potentially be attracted to each other, but one of them isn't because the other falls short, not because they're incompatible.

PS Have you noticed the irony of accusing me of hamstering while you dismissed at least one of my points (you using a logical fallacy, albeit, apparently, unintentionally) that can be 100% fact checked as "that's just your feelings".

Okay, I've explained everything in the best detail I can here, I'm leaving it at this unless you can point out some huge something that I missed that puts actual holes in my argument. At this point I've admitted to seeing your point, and explained mine. So if you can't at least see my point and how it fits given the context, you're either extremely dense or not arguing in good faith, and both of these cases are not worth my time.

[–] Drippyskippy Monk 1 point 2 points 3 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

I have to say that I'm pretty impressed with your post and the effort that you made. Its nice to see a new poster around here who can actually address points for what they are. Though, you did start out badly with your personal attacks against me.

Yeah, a point that you brought into the discussion while literally no one was arguing against it.

This is true, that no one was arguing against it or even thinking about it. Maybe I was turning a simple question with a simple blanket response into something a little bit more complex and nuanced instead of drawing simple answers to simple questions. I have a tendency to do that.

yes, of course preferences are important to attraction as attraction is almost exclusively preferences, I'm not sure why you're trying to get everyone to admit that though, because literally no one was denying that fact

This response right here puts you above most posters on PPD. When another poster actually has a point, you point it out. Conversely, what Penny did was make ad hominem attacks against me without recognizing the point that I was making. Kudos.

You're trying to use extreme examples trying to disprove a correct but very poorly worded blanket statement

I disagree that my examples were extreme. Sexuality, nationality, age, race all these and more are part of preferences. When you say extreme I interpret that as you saying I"m bringing up very rare examples. I think these are pretty common examples where people don't want to date or have relationships with people because they don't fit their preference. I still disagree that her blanket statement is correct. I've already stated my reasons for this.

Assuming that all requirements like sex, race, and any other deal breakers out of your control are accounted for, if a significant number of the people you want to fuck still don't want to fuck you- your standards are too high.

This I can generally agree with, but this isn't what she said. Just like thinking before you speak, you have to think before you make a post. This is generally why I won't make blanket statements like penny, or will use the phrase "on average" in my posts to make it clear that there will always be outliers or alternatives to the general truth.

Now that I've spelled out for you what Penny's actual point was, with all context taken into consideration, can you see how what you are saying is not at all relevant to what they are saying?

It is relevant to the overall discussion on why you can be rejected, but to the specific question being asked and the specific answers being given, it isn't the most relevant, but it does play a part in why people do get rejected which is relevant to part of her post.

PS Have you noticed the irony of accusing me of hamstering

Technically I didn't accuse you of hamstering. Instead I was predicting that your response to mine was going to have a lot of hamstering in it. Considering when I engage most women here they end up posting about their feelings, hamstering, avoiding/ignoring the points that I make, make off topic remarks or imply that I said something I didn't. I was expecting one of those tactics to be used against me as they are very common, but you surprised me.

I agree that context is very important. But when I see clearly incorrect blanket statements that are much too simplistic, I have to disagree. I guess that is how I'm wired. I see the faults and the fallacy's in people's thinking. I've pretty much become a critic.

Really, this all could have easily been avoided had Penny just recognized my point and said something along the lines of she wasn't thinking about that when she made her post, but agree that preferences play a role in rejection (assuming she does). However, a lot of people around here are allergic to recognize when a valid point has been made unless they are both aligned with the same pill.

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I can see how statistically speaking wanting a slim woman would be picky but then again staying slim really isn’t that hard.

It's not that hard (especially compared to how hard it is for men to stay athletic), but still harder than complaining that men who don't want to date fatties are only after supermodels.

And 9/10 if you’re slim and feminine you’re going to have a pretty face too?

No, facial beauty is limited by genetics, no matter how healthy the woman's lifestyle. Probably less than half of women have the right genes to have a face most men would call "pretty". Then again it's definitely a higher percentage than the men with faces most women would call "handsome", and a sizeable minority, or maybe even a slight majority, of men doesn't care that much for a pretty face if her body is stellar and she's feminine and not bitchy/crazy. But it's my impression that the more desirable men (with higher socioeconomic status and/or a more handsome face) tend to care more about a woman's facial beauty.

P.S. all of this is about relationships: lots of men will of course dumpster dive for casual sex, especially on the down low or when they're drunk.

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So you’re seriously telling me that it is accepted belief on RP that adopting alpha traits WILL NOT make an unattractive beta guy do better with women?

That's not what they're saying.

Women have a cut off for looks and they've said as much on this sub. Even average guys are not going to register on her radar so when you say 'unattractive', it encompasses everyone up until about a 7. That's very broad, but RP recognises you need to have something to work with.

It's not going to get Asian men laid en masse by white women because most women prefer white men. But it will improve your chances if you're an average beta.

Try to imagine a short guy, maybe with a disability or severe autism trying RP. It's not going to work as well compared to, say, a skinny fat WoW nerd who's too shy to approach. It may help improve their chances but it will help average men a bit more. Most men are overweight, don't know what women find attractive and when they're young they maybe haven't developed better social skills. Even approaching a woman is anxiety inducing.

Game alone isn't going to get anyone into bed but it's better to know it than not to. It's like having the qualifications for a job but not knowing how to act in an interview. Knowing how to act in one alone isn't going to get the job without the qualifications. You need both. RP basically tells you to get qualified and how to pass the interview process, but if you have a low IQ, getting qualified first is going to be hard.

[–]poppy_blu 2 points3 points4 points 8 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Even average guys are not going to register on her radar so when you say 'unattractive', it encompasses everyone up until about a 7.

Just fucking stop.

It's not going to get Asian men laid en masse by white women because most women prefer white men.

Doesn't seem to be getting you laid either...and you're white. Correct? Hmm....

And "women" includes women of all races, many -- and I mean many -- of whom don't prefer white men by default.

Try to imagine a short guy, maybe with a disability or severe autism trying RP.

Most men are overweight, don't know what women find attractive and when they're young they maybe haven't developed better social skills. Even approaching a woman is anxiety inducing.

Another example of men here believing they and their friends are represented in the male population in vastly larger numbers than they actually are.

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I'll bet there's a correlation between ASVAB scores and the airmen who get married in tech school.

Exactly.

1) Despite the nerfs to make ASVAB doable for more blacks, ASVAB scores are still G-loaded and strongly correlate with IQ just like SAT and ACT scores are:

The ASVAB/AFQT is effectively an IQ test and it is certainly well correlated with “official” IQ tests like Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale (WAIS) and Stanford-Binet.

A good rule of thumb on the internet is to never accept a poster's claims on faith, ever. Don't take some blogger's word for it, Defense Department officials say ASVAB is G-loaded and measures intelligence:

The correlation for AFQT [the ASVAB test] and WAIS [the IQ test] was .77 for black airmen and .8 for white airmen. These significant positive relationships indicate that AFQT and WAIS are measuring basically the same factor.

And no, I don't know why the blue fuck every single IQ researcher either does "blacks and whites"--or, in rarer cases, "blacks, whites, East Asians." It's annoying that they do that. I'd like to know about IQ differences among the Indian population, not just the five thousandth example of "East Asians are smarter than Europeans, who are smarter than Africans" and the five millionth example of "Africans are dipshits." I'm already persuaded of those things, I'd like more knowledge than that.

2) IQ strongly correlates with average life outcomes. More specifically, the higher your IQ is, the less likely you are to eat yourself into obesity and the less likely you are to end up in prison. These individual stats mean that the positive correlation between IQ and life expectancy isn't purely caused by low mutation load and healthy genes. Both eating excess calories and committing crimes are decisions, not something you're born with like Down's Syndrome. This means that, on average, high IQ positively correlates with good decision-making.

3) As /u/planvital said, SAT and ACT scores very strongly correlate with IQ. The higher a student's SAT or ACT score, the more likely they are to be good students. Colleges wouldn't bother with them if they didn't have better predictive power than high school GPA. In other words, not only does higher IQ positively correlate with better average lifetime decision-making, as seen in 2) with choosing how many calories to eat and choosing whether or not to break the law, it also positively correlates with better diligence and the skills necessary for a student to succeed in college.

It follows from 1), 2) and 3) that higher-ASVAB airmen would have better average decision-making. If an airman with high ASVAB scores goes for a dependa instead of marrying a foreign woman or having a gay old time screwing hookers, he's a bluepilled beta who's either naive or has the testosterone levels of the BuzzFeed Try Guys--specifically, the ugly white guys, not the hot sexy Asian guy. /u/Paratrooper_19D can feel free to correct me if this assertion is wrong.

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It’s pretty hard for most women to stay “skinny.” Our bodies are literally meant to store fat.

And by hard I mean extremely restrictive diets and constant HIIT cardio and resistance training.

The women I know who maintain “skinnyyyy” don’t have real jobs and so their “real job” is eating nuts and lettuce and going to cycling class and Pilates 14x a week. I’ll never forget this Instagram model said “I look the way I look because my only job is to maintain my looks.” Or my few female friends who have always been rail thin since kids but eat more than me — blessed with very high metabolisms >_<

That said most women can not be obese or fat. And most women I know aren’t. They’re active and workout and go on hikes.

Most women don’t easily maintain toned minuscule body fat percentages, but most people can pretty easily not be clinically obese. And can pretty normally maintain a a feminine shape.

Having a pretty face? Well that’s genetics. As with men and height, she has no control over that.

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I can’t quite comprehend their inability to receive the entirety of what I wrote.

What you wrote it's simply false, this a page out of the low-level skeptik community: people disagree with me, must be triggered.

Or maybe you are wrong, have you ever think that maybe you are simply wrong?

And by hard I mean extremely restrictive diets and constant HIIT cardio and resistance training.

Eating at your maintenance is, by definition, not extremely restrictive. Not restrictive at all in fact. You simply have an overblown idea of your caloric needs.

Also, cardio or any other physical activity, it's a small part of weight loss. Running for an hour will consume maybe 500 calories if you are lucky(and fast), skipping a meal will do the same while you watch Netflix(just as an example).

The women I know who maintain “skinnyyyy” don’t have real jobs and so their “real job” is eating nuts and lettuce and going to cycling class and Pilates 14x a week.

Bullshit. People have different weights regardless of their work environment because the difference is their dietary habits.

Implying that you need an unreasonable quantity of physical activity and no job just to not be fat it's a simple lie quickly debunked by high school physics.

That said most women can not be obese or fat. And most women I know aren’t. They’re active and workout and go on hikes.

Most women don’t easily maintain toned minuscule body fat percentages, but most people can pretty easily not be clinically obese. And can pretty normally maintain a a feminine shape

You are trying to cover your ass and gaslight the topic by mixing "toned muscle" into it just because you know, at least at an unconscious level, that you made stupid claims.

I know skinny women who don't work out, so? Your anecdotes are meaningless.

Calories in, calories out.

Maintenance is not restriction.

Disagreement is not triggering.

And you are full of shit.

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https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/978wbt/what_is_considered_high_standards_when_it_comes/e46cr8c/

This is you blaming biology instead of women for having shitty dietary habits. "But but our bodies are made to store fat." Thanks, that's obvious to everyone who knows basics of biology. The fact that women are prone to carry MORE fat than men as a % of body weight means this: your maintenance calories are lower. Eat less. Do not eat that whole cheeseburger. That's 90% of the battle.

And as much as I dislike MOST (not all) overweight women physically, I'm really projecting my disgust for blaming biology for what is actually shitty habits and ineptitude.

And trying to twist this into some "gotcha / shaming" crap where fat is "great" (essentially) because it gives "feminine shape" and something "soft and supple."

https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/978wbt/what_is_considered_high_standards_when_it_comes/e46fiu0/

And ignoring the reality that it's unchangeable bone/body structure that's responsible for much of the sexiness that comes with the hourglass figure and therefore "fat" is only part of the picture. (Hence, very skinny women with good bone structure are very attractive).

Blame the cheeseburger though. And your public high school understanding of biology and what part of that does and does not apply to losing weight.

Or did I miss your point completely? If so, you probably never had one to begin with.

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Let's suss out this "nuance" then:

OP says: I saw a post in foreveralone the other day about a woman saying that men wanted “Slim, Feminine women with pretty faces” and one of the reply’s said that most men don’t have standards that high. When I think about it, are those standards really that high? I mean given that most of the US is overweight I can see how statistically speaking wanting a slim woman would be picky but then again staying slim really isn’t that hard. And 9/10 if you’re slim and feminine you’re going to have a pretty face too?

Basically asks if it's odd or wrong in any way to prefer "slim, feminine" women.

You reply with this:

It’s pretty hard for most women to stay “skinny.” Our bodies are literally meant to store fat. And by hard I mean extremely restrictive diets and constant HIIT cardio and resistance training. The women I know who maintain “skinnyyyy” don’t have real jobs and so their “real job” is eating nuts and lettuce and going to cycling class and Pilates 14x a week. I’ll never forget this Instagram model said “I look the way I look because my only job is to maintain my looks.” Or my few female friends who have always been rail thin since kids but eat more than me — blessed with very high metabolisms >_< That said most women can not be obese or fat. And most women I know aren’t. They’re active and workout and go on hikes.

Which reads like shaming / mocking / trolling now that I've read the replies in order.

You use "quotes" around "skinny" to leave it more open to interpretation or, perhaps, to mock or troll.

Either way reasonable interpretation, especially for the US (given its overweight population) is that:

“skinny” = fit women (BMI 19-23, let's say, to be strict). Not malnourished / in emaciated BMI or even in the underweight category.

If you were being literal about "skinny" in some way then that's your problem. Bad choice of words.

From there you make the preposterous claim that to maintain “skinny” = "fit" conditions (BMI 19-23), that women must:

The women I know who maintain “skinnyyyy” don’t have real jobs and so their “real job” is eating nuts and lettuce and going to cycling class and Pilates 14x a week.

Which is total non-sense, as it is too extreme to reach and maintain a BMI range of 19-23.

Unless you're trying to me a female bodybuilder or win an anorexia contest, sticking to the basics (like not eating that whole cheeseburger) should suffice for the vast majority of women.

Sorry, the only "nuance" I got here was some mockery, hyperbole and general non-sense from you.

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The point that was lost on you is that it’s more effort than it is for men. Men have more lean body muscle than women by default. Why do you think between the average man and woman who are both 5’7 and 130 lbs the man is stronger? I’ll give you hint. It’s muscle. Muscle burns calories faster. This isn’t some female conspiracy and you don’t have to repeat to me calories in calories out. I’m acutely aware. Most women remotely into maintaining their size count calories as it’s the easiest way to be vigilant of diet. Please debate someone else.

You're stating the obvious here (at least to me or anyone who has studied the basics of nutrition) and I say to this:

So what? So what if it's more effort? Your point was to state the obvious? Is that correct?

So it's understandable for women to be overweight? Obese? No, I don't think so, if you were going to say that, as it's clear that women in non-Anglosphere European countries have no issues with managing their weight.

This like men whining here that "casual sexing is harder for men."

So what?

There is really nothing to debate here. You're playing gender wars bullshit - predictably.

I'll reply to whoever I want - block me if you don't like it.

And then downvotes... as a Mod. Hahahahah! (Who else could it be this deep into a comment thread?)

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PREACH! I was a fast metabolism even after kids person, but our bodies betray us in our 30's. Nearly every woman I know is on some kinda thyroid/estrogen/testosterone HRT. Myself included. Even with optimized hormones and HIIT + cardio I'll never look "skinnyyy" without an extreme diet, which I refuse to do. I keep it clean and mostly avoid carbs, but I won't go extreme. I only workout because I like to eat and I have no shame there. As long as my clothes fit at the size I like I don't worry beyond that or I'd go insane.

My husband on the other hand is 45, and still has that guy ability to breathe gym air and lose 10 lbs. We were watching some Game of Thrones behind the scenes thing and they said Jason Mamoa's arms are 18 inches and he was like "pfft, I could do that." Goes out, does it. Not fair, but reality.

Any guy that thinks he has high standards and imagines an instagram skinny wife/gf forever will have to be totally okay with massive amounts of time in the gym, regular and expensive medical/trainer/nutritionist costs, and not being able to spontaneously go out to eat whatever, whenever. A restricted and boring life. Just accept that if we're otherwise healthy we go from from sport model to luxury model and smash all the ass.

Edit: words are hard

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Like what? School me with all of your vast knowledge of the side effects on various birth control methods on women's bodies.

https://www.cdc.gov/reproductivehealth/contraception/unintendedpregnancy/pdf/Contraceptive_methods_508.pdf

Take your pick. Something won't have side effects. Cry us a river if you don't like to do your homework. My wife BSed about her hormonal birth control for a while - I told her to go see a specialist and tell THEM her problems, not me. Lo and behold, they helped her find one that doesn't mess with her system.

Not hard for some people, harder for others. Leave it at that.

Never argued against that either.

Completely irrelevant to the topic at hand: the vast majority of people can maintain healthy (normal or even lower-end normal BMI) without "living to be lean." Just basic food intake control and basic exercise. 80% the former. Source: go to Europe and look around.

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Women meal prep just to maintain her normal weight.

It’s a bit harder for us to be toned. We are literally fighting nature to do that.

I'm a man and I also have to watch my intake just to stay at the same weight, and I'm a vegetarian so that's not an excuse either. The laws of thermodynamics are the same for men and women.

What I've noticed are the main differences between me and people who find it much harder are: 1) I'm 100% honest to myself about what I eat and drink (after a night out I try to remember if I had 4 or 5 beers and work with that number instead of just guessing "a couple" and just lazily assuming 3 to make myself feel better), 2) I've memorized the macro contents of many kinds of food and can guestimate the contents of meals pretty well by now (and I regularly test this to make sure I'm not fooling myself) and I make sure I don't fuck up my daily macro arithmetic (again, by practicing), and 3) I don't worry about micros (women tend to do this way too much and make wrong choices because of it) and not even that much about fat or carbs either since you can't really do too much damage (whether you're a man or a woman) if your caloric intake is on target and your protein intake is high.

I will give you this: portions are often unisex, like the size of a wine glass or a meal at a restaurant, so just by virtue of female body size women can't just copy the portions or number of portions of their male company.

I've had too many arguments with men on here about the difficulties of maintaining a thin body past 25 unless you are genetically blessed.

Men's metabolism slows down just as much. A man who wants a swimmer's build instead of a dad bod can't just compensate for a slower metabolism with more muscles (and muscles stop growing after a couple of years of lifting anyway, so even if it would compensate it would only work for a couple of years).

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Having a pretty face? Well that’s genetics.

Example #5,569 of how an Oppressive Beauty Standard is beneficial to the offspring. If everyone were nondiscriminatory and had kids with high-mutation-load potatoes, the children would be royally screwed. In addition, society would be royally screwed not just from genetic diseases but from the drop in IQ.

With that said, the other factor is hormones. Given how trans women who go on hormones at the early age Ray Blanchard wrings his hands about ("they're sterilizing these kids!!!1!") always have a pretty, feminine face whereas hons who let androgens have free rein for 40 years don't, I can't help but wonder if a teenager girl ever thought of maxxing out her looks (and the financial and relationship rewards thereof) by taking androgen-blockers and estrogen during adolescence to increase her feminine features and minimize body hair growth.

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Skin and hair. The standards for skin and hair are so much higher for women.

I mean given that most of the US is overweight I can see how statistically speaking wanting a slim woman would be picky but then again staying slim really isn’t that hard.

I don't think people are all that different in terms of motivations and desire to be slim than they used to be a hundred years ago, the obvious conclusion is yes it is harder to be slim and fit than it used to be, if it was as easy as say choosing to brush one's hair almost all people would be slim just like almost all people don't have matted hair. Employment is more sedentary, cultural and social participation is more sedentary, in order to do sufficient exercise people have to forgo stuff that is more enjoyable and/or valuable than what they had to forgo decades ago. And when you look at our diets it becomes obvious that modern food production and distribution favors cheap calories from sources that aren't high protein. Things are different and being slim is harder than it used to be. For some it is harder than others, for instance those who do shift work face some particular challenges and there's really quite a lot of young people doing shift work at fast food shops now in order to pay for their educations.

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What is considered “High Standards” when it comes to physical appearance for women?

Comments

YOU MEAN THEY AREN'T ALLOWED TO DREAM? HEH TALKING ABOUT CONTROL.

PLEASE TELL ME.

Title	What is considered “High Standards” when it comes to physical appearance for women?
Author	PM-ME-YOUR-STOMACH
Upvotes	26
Comments	582
Date	August 14, 2018 2:38 PM UTC (8 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/978wbt/what_is_considered_high_standards_when_it_comes/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/what-is-considered-high-standards-when-it-comes-to.261155 https://theredarchive.com/post/261155