Why should immuteable traits in a man be given a free pass just because they're immutable?

cel-shaded · 2022-10-18T15:26:03+00:00

A lot of people already mentioned the hypocrisy of shaming men for having standards while praising women for having them but there is one more point about men who get rejected for immutable traits: their experiences are denied by other people.

Being short WILL ruin your dating prospects but you try to vent about it a lot of people, usually people who are not short men, will scream at you that you just need confidence and to hit the gym. If you say your ethnicity has caused you to be repeatedly rejected, people will hurry to say that it's just your bad personality.

Meanwhile, if a woman claims to be rejected for being fat she'll be consoled that the man was a shallow bastard.

While some users here are aware of the difficulties immutable genetics can bring, the average person will deny them and berate the speaker. In absence of fairness, genetically unfortunate men could at least use some sympathy but they don't even get that.

currentlyinthefab · 2022-10-18T09:14:01+00:00

Honestly I normally just lurk on this sub but I have to say I've always found the idea of women only wanting tall men to be hilarious, like you're 5'3" why the fuck do you care if a guy is only 5'10" he already towers above you?

Kronbopulus · 2022-10-18T08:02:11+00:00

I don’t think most logical men think it should be given a free pass BUT feeling like shit about it is natural.. Reddit likes to kick those guys in the stomach and tell them they are somehow wrong for not being gleeful.. very weird..

Nor would I really want someone “ giving me a chance” fuck that! Imagine knowing the person next to you in bed is forcing themselves to be attracted to you ( which always fails). It always comes out, always gets discovered in the end. It’s a dumb and damaging practice for both parties involved.

beleidigtewurst · 2022-10-18T12:55:10+00:00

Any criticism of women is a no-no, even not immutable traits (such as being obese).

Whereas bashing men for even immutable traits is totally fine.

That's all that is about.

"I can't change my height, therefore women not giving me a chance are superficial and should adjust their preferences..."

I've never seen claims like that, only in the double standards context which you conveniently stripped out.

NJFlowerchild · 2022-10-18T12:28:57+00:00

It's assumptive that attraction and dating has to be based on some sort of "fairness" which it quite simply is not.

There has to be an entitlement to sex or a partner in order for there to be an assumption of fairness in selection. That's where people go wrong.

statsfodder · 2022-10-18T08:13:32+00:00

You are missing context as most times this is argued it is on a post that modern women want a free pass on things they can definitely do something about but it is easier to say men need to date fat chicks or they are misogynistic fatphobic assholes...

The immutable traits piece wasn't created in a vacuum.

HazyMemory7 · 2022-10-18T08:57:24+00:00

Let me turn the question around and ask you:

Why do women expect men to look past mutable traits that you can actually CONTROL, like weight and body count, and call men misogynistic for not doing so?

No reasonable men are out here actually saying oh give men who are 5'6 a chance, if you're attracted to taller men then more power to you. Just bear in mind, there are only X % of the population in any given place of men who are 6ft or taller. Add in qualifiers like facial attractiveness and income and the percentage becomes astronomically low.

CruelAngelGradThesis · 2022-10-18T10:36:59+00:00

It doesn't make any sense whatsoever. It's a byproduct of the "standards by committee" mentality which is increasingly common due to people feeling the need to randomly shout every thought they have into the internet void and others taking that as a request for feedback.

inkiwitch · 2022-10-18T16:15:03+00:00

People want dating to be fair when mating in nature isn’t fair at all.

How many nature documentaries have we all seen of birds doing their weird little dancy dance rituals to find a partner? Guess what happens to the birds who didn’t dance well enough?

They die alone without ever passing on their genes.

Not a single organism in the animal kingdom is successfully pairing off every member of its species. Why should humans be any different?

The great thing about this day and age is that you no longer have to be a strong physical specimen to be considered a good mate. You can be funny, kind, intelligent, rich, or just a marvelous storyteller.

Sure, being strong and attractive HELPS but not even being 6’2 and making a million a year guarantees you won’t be deleted from the gene pool.

Nature doesn’t give a fuck about the amount of men dying as virgins these days.

WideAwake550 · 2022-10-18T22:01:53+00:00

I don't have a problem with women dismissing men due to immutable traits.

Don't want to date a short guy? Cool.

Don't want to date a White/Black/Asian guy? Cool.

Don't want to date a bald guy? Cool.

It's a free world.

The thing that bothers me as a man is how men get shamed for being "so shallow" and "only valuing women for their looks" left, right, and sideways. And prominent women constantly accuse us of only liking conventionally attractive women and having issues with fatphobia, colorism, slut shaming, etc.

If women can accept that they're just as superficial as us men, it wouldn't be an issue. But women usually come up with BS excuses talkin about "I tried to give X dudes a chance but their personalities were terrible and that's why I only date conventionally attractive men."

C'mon now. You and I know damn well you were already dispositioned to want to go for conventionally attractive men, regardless of the personality or character factor. If women can at least own up to it instead of capping or trying to find a way to blame men for it, the superficial preferences of women will be better understood.

Men already are expected to be superficial in society when it comes to dating(even though that's a bit overstated) and that's why there's more focus on women.

New-Context831 · 2022-10-18T16:00:35+00:00

They're just sad dudes who want some love, like the ladies over 30 wondering where the studs went, same shit

classicliberal1 · 2022-10-18T23:06:27+00:00

Why should immuteable traits in a man be given a free pass just because they're immutable?

"I can't change my height, therefore women not giving me a chance are superficial and should adjust their preferences..."

I don't think people generally argue that. What I have heard men say is that if it's ok for women to prefer tall guys than it's ok for men to prefer slim women. If anything, the latter preference is more justifiable since having control over your weight is also indicative of your values and determination. So, in the least, the male preference for slim girls is not more repugnant than the female preference for tall guys.

That said, I think everyone agrees that ugly people aren't going to be selected even though it's no fault of their own that that lost the genetic lottery.

jayval90 · 2022-10-18T14:01:37+00:00

You obviously haven't been paying much attention. Men have gotten shamed for having preferences in women's mutable characteristics (like weight, hoeish behavior, etc). This was just a way of turning the tables on how that sounds. Of course people have preferences (duh) the point was shaming women the same way men have been shamed.

Psychological_Wear_7 · 2022-10-18T08:00:47+00:00

But when I want a woman who isn't overweight, I'm the villain

Ok-Expression7575 · 2022-10-18T13:25:33+00:00

I just chalk it up to "that's the way the world is" so I'm not gonna get hung up on people that don't want me.

Women tend to like taller men

Men tend to like thinner women

That's life, don't be mad/bitter about something you can't control because you literally cannot control it and if you CAN control it and are still mad/bitter about then wake the fuck up and do something about it.

Source: 30yo 5'4" man whose had no problem having dates/LTRs his entire life

redback-spider · 2022-10-18T15:01:10+00:00

If women would stop this ridiculous cheating of publicly wearing very high heels.

If they want a man that is bigger than them without heels a bit, fine, but if he has to be much bigger than well if your marketvalue is high enough go for it, but if not never complain about man when your expectations are ridiculous by you running around on fake height increasing shoes.

Or they should be ok with man wearing ridiculous high shoes themself. The problem is not what you do, it's if you complain about it after you do it, if you complain about problems your actions cause.

Blame_the_Muse · 2022-10-18T08:29:51+00:00

The most important factors that men rank women by—age and facial bone structure—are also ~~immutable~~ not under the individual's control

It's not like men have it any harder here

spinky_bum9451 · 2022-10-18T07:40:39+00:00

What I really can't accept for my own self respect and future is women making compromises, but only when they're looking to settle down. Men need to know that if that woman wasn't giving his immutable traits a free pass in her fun phase, they will be a huge liability in a her's settle down phase.

Especially as an older woman, either you need to find what you're attracted to or (smart) men should really not be giving you a shot unless there's proof. Older women that seem interested need to be fuckzoned first just to make sure.

alchemist10000 · 2022-10-18T15:40:14+00:00

This "not a rule based game based on fairness, and just because you were dealt a shitty hand doesn't mean others have to accomdate you" actually is a life approach, but feminists only use it when benefits them, i.e. in dating.

Let me put this mindset in another perspective.

Why should we have welfare for poor people? Just because they are in a shitty situation doesn't mean society has to accomodate them.

Why should we have research for terminal illnesses like cancer? Just because some people are dealt a shitty hand and catch it doesn't mean society has to accomodate them.

Why should we have shelters for the homeless? Just because they are in a shitty situation doesn't mean society have to accomodate them.

Why should we have Covid relief fund? Just because some people are stuck in a shitty situation because of the pandemic and lost their jobs doesn't mean society have to accomodate them.

Why should we have funding to help those who suffer from abuse? Just because some people are stuck in a shitty situation doesn't mean society have to accomodate them.

Why should we have more women as CEOs? Just because there are less women CEOs doesn't mean society has to accomodate them.

Why should we encourage more women in STEM? Just because less women are in STEM doesn't mean society has to accomodate them.

Why should we be understanding and provide funding for those who suffer from mental illness like depression, anxiety, bipolar disorder etc? Just because some people have shitty circumstances doesn't mean society has to accomodate them.

Why should we provide support for those who have eating disorders? Just because some people are in shitty situations doesn't mean society has to accomodate them.

I could go on but you get the jist. See how cold the world becomes when everyone has this mindset?

In other words, women are socialists in general life as that benefits them the most, and capitalists in dating as that benefits them the most too. It's all about self benefit at the end of the day.

Stunning-Spirit5275 · 2022-10-18T14:12:42+00:00

I don’t know if this is a CMV, but have to agree with OP. You can’t force attraction, and you can live a somewhat fulfilling life even if you’re a bridge troll who repels women

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lurker7128 · 2022-10-18T16:44:06+00:00

That’s fine, then polygamy is a necessary result of that thinking.

lady_ven0m · 2022-10-18T16:53:45+00:00

So, I do agree with you that dating isn’t fair, but this applies to women too. Men are judged by their height, build, careers/wealth, intelligence, having a full head of hair, and yes the size of their penis. Women are judged by their beauty and youth, ability to cook, do housework, rear children, not be overweight, and have big boobs and a shapely butt and even wide hips. Women are also expected to be more chaste.

Of course you’ll find people that are attracted to people that don’t have these traits, but it’s going to be a minority, which makes dating difficult.

Also, it’s not wrong for people to inherently want to score above their league, because I do feel like we’re biologically wired to want procreate with people of the best genes and assets, but obviously there’s not enough hotties to go around, and also why would that other person want to settle below their league? You just gotta live in reality, and I know that’s easier said than done. We’re all guilty of it, it’s just human nature. Either play the game or give up and find happiness in other things, those are really your only options. 🤷🏻‍♀️

Remy_me_me · 2022-10-18T18:54:13+00:00

Slightly different topic, but i think a common complaint is when it seems ok to height-shame guys and/or when it's not recognized as such in the context of dating. It's normalized, where we see it by girls who are active on social media, dating apps, forums, and even by girls and toxic guys within a guy's own friend group.

I think physically, it's a lot more difficult to gain height vs losing weight (for both guys and girls). But then, these things get treated like equivalents when it comes to debating things like, in what situations is reverse sexism appropriate. This occasionally turns into whether it's worse to shame someone for something they can change v.s. can't change, and does being on the receiving end justify it, etc.

(Fyi, i recognize that women have been ruthlessly on the receiving end throughout history, but if it's acceptable for girls to insult me over something that's unrealistic for me to change, is it fair for me to respond and criticize her for something she realistically can change... or is that suddenly considered crossing the line? I get that life isn't fair, but I'm also free to speak out against ignorance. Btw, I always let it go when a girl does this, and I never will respond to her in the way that I mentioned above.)

It's one thing to state your non-negotiable preferences, but it's another to be rude about it, which happens WAY more often from my experiences (and my guy friends' experiences). More specifically on dating apps, girls will give an offended/judgy reaction when the guy truthfully answers her question about his height, especially when the guy literally didn't make any mention of physical traits, let alone say anything to prompt the rudeness.

Then, girls will cover up this rudeness by either saying she was just stating her preferences (when that clearly didn't happen) or implying that the guy somehow deserved it. At one point, I had to screenshot my conversations to friends who wouldn't let go of their assumptions.

There's also this girl (who's never done online dating) in my friend group who takes a lot of pride in being empathetic, body positive, pro-equality, self-esteem focused, encouraging of therapy, etc. However, she'll unpromptedly weave height-shaming into conversations, as if it's a guy's character flaw? For example, she randomly brought into a conversation that guys are liars if they don't list their height on their dating profiles. But if that's considered lying, then based on what I see on girls' dating profiles... (I'll refrain from further elaborating here). AND yet, whenever I hint that her height-shaming could be problematic, she maintains she has some innate moral high ground to say these things. It's like to her, the same doesn't apply to women who intentionally leave out info & over-manipulate their pictures on dating profiles.

Even if i were to counter her with a low blow, the best i could come up with is asking if the appropriate equivalent would be to have girls start listing their dimensions truthfully on their dating profiles, which are things that can be realistically "improved" (depending on your stance on body positivity). So girls would still have the advantage in this case, and yet many ppl don't register this when it gets called out.

calfshrug · 2022-10-18T20:53:52+00:00

The problem is that we should all be uplifting ugly people all the time. You see an old ugly person alone - you help them cross the street. You see an ugly, short 23 year old guy who can barely lift his arm, has voice quavers, and can’t hold eye contact - you become his friend and invite him to hang with you and your friends. Etc, etc. We have a neoliberal, narcissistic, societal obsession with egalitarianism, spouting off about the importance of mental health, and treating people equally, yet almost no one goes out of their way to help ugly people and losers. Unless said ugly people are dangerous to be around, we should be sharing our blessings with them. To quote Chris Cornell, “oh no don’t you keep your good luck to yourself”

“I know you’ve got problems,I see it in your eyes, if you want to live to see the morning, give it up to your brother or you’ll get a surprise”

Audioslave is a band of socialists. These socialists, you’ll notice, are reinforcing the actions and attitudes that 90% of modern humans will pantomime but refuse to enact because they’d rather ring like a bell than give like a friend.

BitsAndBobs304 · 2022-10-19T00:39:28+00:00

>I'm sorry, it just does not work like that.

then what does 'shallow' mean to you? absolutely nothing?

SeliciousSedicious · 2022-10-19T21:01:37+00:00

I think that’s fine.

But if I too as a man am primarily only really attracted to feminine semi curvy-slim women with long hair then you also can’t really call a man out for only really finding those traits attractive.

Title	Why should immuteable traits in a man be given a free pass just because they're immutable?
Author	Cjaylyle
Upvotes	26
Comments	305
Date	October 18, 2022 7:22 AM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/y6zxbn/why_should_immuteable_traits_in_a_man_be_given_a/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/why-should-immuteable-traits-in-a-man-be-given-a.1208446 https://theredarchive.com/post/1208446

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