That’s what I thought

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So amazing that politician can say this and get support... what a world we live in.

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It's incomplete:

"The experience that you have gone through is in many ways comparable to what happens with domestic violence. Women have always been the primary victims of war. Women lose their husbands, their fathers, their sons in combat. Women often have to flee from the only homes they have ever known. Women are often the refugees from conflict and sometimes, more frequently in today’s warfare, victims. Women are often left with the responsibility, alone, of raising the children. Women are again the victims in crime and domestic violence as well. Throughout our hemisphere we have an epidemic of violence against women, even though there is no longer any organized warfare that puts women in the direct line of combat. But domestic violence is now recognized as being the most pervasive human rights violation in the world. Here in El Salvador, according to the statistics gathered by your government, 1 in 6 women have been sexually assaulted and the number of domestic abuse complaints at just one agency topped 10,000 last year. Between 25 and 50 percent of women throughout Latin America have reportedly been victims of domestic violence.

The problem is all pervasive, but sometimes difficult to see. Every country on earth shares this dark secret. Too often, the women we see shopping at the markets, working at their jobs, caring for their children by day, go home at night and live in fear. Not fear of an invading army or a natural disaster or even a stranger in a dark alley, but fear of the very people — family members — who they are supposed to depend upon for help and comfort. This is the trust-destroying terror that attends every step of a victim of violence. For these women, their homes provide inadequate refuge, the law little protection, public opinion often less sympathy. That’s why we have to say over and over again, as Elizabeth has done and as so many of you have echoed, that violence against women is not simply cultural or a custom. It is simply criminal, a crime. The devastating effects of domestic violence on women are just as dramatic as the effects of war on women. The physical injury, the mental illness, the terrible loss of confidence limits the capacities of women to fulfill their God-given potentials."

And her point of view is supported by the United Nation Security Council.

Furthermore, the context of "Victim of War" here provides an implicit exclusion of people who are participating in the execution of the war, so the "Gotcha" that she then describes the deaths of men ignores that context, as the men described are participating in that war.

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[–]bgaesop3 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Having looked at the pdf, it doesn't actually seem to support this point? The quote Snopes pulls, "civilians, particularly women and children, account for the vast majority of those adversely affected by armed conflict", does not appear anywhere in the document, and the citation link Snopes provides leads to a 404. The document does talk about the ways in which women are adversely affected by war, but doesn't seem to investigate the ways men are affected. This seems like it's looking at what happens to women, not looking at what happens to men, and saying "based on this, it appears women have it worse", which, well, I hope I don't have to explain why that's unconvincing.

The greater context for her quote doesn't help her case either, as she goes on to deliberately mislead: "Women are again the victims in crime and domestic violence", the use of "the victims" instead of just "victims" implies they are more often the victims of crime and domestic violence than men are, which is false.

[–]ShortFuse3 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You asked for the actual evidence. The 1325 document, which you're quoting and is 404'd on snopes, has none. This one as least has somewhat detail of the methodolgy they use to calculate it (ie: rape statistics), and it references the 3125 in the first paragraph. I'm curious as well.

It doesn't seem to have the actual numbers though. There's a lot of articles on 1325, but I can't find much concrete numbers either. And there's a lot of weblinks that aren't really without bias. I didn't bother with those. And the wiki entry for it has a bunch of dead links under references.

The most I could is stuff on how the success of 1325's implementation, and numbers related to how much things are better now. But as for what lead to the resolution in the first place, back in 2000, I'm not finding much.

I'd imagine they're saying that numerically, more civilians are affected and the majority of those are women and children, which could be true, technically. But of course, not all victimization is equal. The utter and complete death of somebody who fought in war isn't the same as a relative not being able to buy groceries. That's why Hillary's statement was bad, regardless of context. She should have known how it would have sounded, especially as an experienced politician.

Edit: 1325 does reference this document as a primary reasoning for the resolution. And it seems to start on page 12.

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That can't be a real quote? Is it?

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"Horrifying study finds 25% of homeless people are women"

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Don't be disingenuous

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It comes with harmful stereotypes, and generally just becomes a disappointing shitshow for the gender that is the minority in that industry.

Male nurses get a lot of shit for being male nurses. Female mechanics get a lot of shit for being female mechanics. Etc.

[–]emptyopen 40 points41 points42 points 6 years ago* (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]zestyclosetutor31 points 6 years ago* [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

This still doesn't really prove if the choice is based on whether we personally want to work in so-and-so industry or whether (like the article said) we're prioritizing pragmatism.

The article states that women in countries with low standard-of-living are opting into STEM fields because it's more practical - they're more stable, well-paid, and keep food on the table.

So what if women in countries with high standard-of-living are simply opting into Teaching/Healthcare roles because they know it will be more practical for them, over say, chasing a STEM field where they it will be unnecessarily difficult?

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Women from wealthy countries generally don’t go into tech because they possess a million different options and many of those options are more attractive to women.

Women from poor countries generally don’t have as many options for their careers as women in rich countries. On top of that, tech is a relatively good option for moving to a rich country and improving their lives significantly. So, a lot of women from poor countries go into tech fields even though that might not be their most preferred choice of career.

If we wanted to get a lot of new people entering the tech field, we should aim our marketing efforts at the group of people who most want to go into the field rather than trying to convince the people who don’t want to enter. Namely, we should be marketing towards men and people from poor countries. Leave the women from wealthy countries alone already.

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[–]TryhardPantiesON 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

Its always interesting that theres tons of support for getting more women in tech. Which is good.

Why is that good? Can you give me three reasons?

Isn't it better to just let people make their own decisions, and choose whatever career path they want?

Question, there are very few women working in garbage collection services, port-a-loo toiler cleaners, coal mining, sewage cleaners, etc. Would you say it is a good thing to incentive women to take those jobs? I think I know your answer.

I once enrolled in an IT career at University and from my experience 90% to 95% of IT students are men, the rest are women, and not all women finish their studies, half of them quit for a variety of reasons: get pregnant, it's not what they thought it was like, they don't like it, a better opportunity appeared, it's too hard, etc.

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Or maybe he's in a specialized field with an already good job and is turning down non-unicorn jobs?

I'm a senior software engineer at a T1000 company, I get recruiters sliding in my DMs almost every day, and I'm not talking about the general recruiter spam, but highly specific in-house recruiters. If I followed up on them and did the interview I could be in the same situation as this guy. That still doesn't mean that their offer is better than mine, or that I want to leave my current position. Like for a bit of insight, I'd only be leaving my current position if I were offered ~300k in total compensation (salary + bonus + rsu).

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3800 take home monthly doesn’t sound that specialized I would guess.

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In one paragraph you claim you get better raises by switching companies, yet you claim you’re turning down 2 offers a month because the pay is the same...

[–]Gnometard 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Not everything is about hourly wage. Most of these jobs pay 3 to 5 dollars more an hour. Most of them either have 0 or little 401k contribution (why bump my salary up 8% but lose 4-6% on 401k contribution?) And my current company pays double on sundays and holidays, other companies are not doing the same. I'm looking at total package now instead of only the salary so more money in my pocket today isn't as important as more in retirement, cheaper doctor visits, or difficult schedules.

I finally live a comfortable life after nearly a decade of retail poverty. I'm not jumping ship until I find the perfect job. My current job will level out at the 5 year mark, could do a little over achieving and make a minor promotion to extend that to 7 years. Once I hit that plateau I'll be much less picky.

I know how the retail shit goes, I was working retail management in my 20s. The same applies there.

For retail workers trying to get into management: work with your managers on inventory counts, inventory ordering, scheduling, sales plans vs actuals, and understand the concepts of sales and personnel management. A motivated individual can learn plenty in as little as a few weeks but maybe months. Learn this stuff, get an interview, and talk like you know it. Find a way to connect their questions to your knowledge on those subjects and experience with it.

[–]mcgee-zax 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

omg there are so many butthurt pussies replying to you with some version of 'it's NOT FAIR!' that I just had to respond. I hire and interview frequently...one of the things I look for is social intelligence, if you're an awkward autistic incel I'm not going to hire you, i'm going to hire the guy who won't freak out the clients who is more or less your equal at coding.

And while I have no bias against female candidates, but many who interview at our company are timid Asian girls which I recognize is a cultural thing to a large degree but I still have to pass on otherwise good candidates sometimes because they would make a poor fit. Some roles it doesn't matter at all so I snap them up because they are otherwise strong, but for other roles I need someone confident and outspoken so I pass on them. Has nothing to do with their gender or their race but HR would shit their pants if they knew the reality.

If you have the full package you will be appealing to many hiring managers in many positions, if you are socially weak in some areas don't expect to be treated the same because you won't be. Wake the fuck up already

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That's not really the case here. We are talking about google and you can find questions they have asked during interviews incredibly easily online.

There is a coding interview where they throw you a random, potentially puzzle like question or two and listen to you walk through how you'd solve it.

Maybe you're weak at talking through your code while you're writing it(since in most situations you don't have to explain code while conceptualizing it), maybe you're not great at thinking on your feet in a high stress environment but you can write really good code when you get comfortable and in the zone. Maybe you are really strong at writing stuff for systems but you don't understand data structures as strongly and that's what you get asked about.

You don't have to be arrogant or an extrovert to do well. There's a million skills necessary for interviewing that are less important on the job, and vice versa.

There's three real steps to work: Get the interview, nail the interview, and don't get fired. People can excel at different steps.

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Even a cursory reading of any of the articles covering this tells you that they are, in fact, doing something about it. They're looking further into the issue at the heart of the problem which is called "leveling".

They've compensated the women who were part of the original complaint after having found out that those specific employees were being paid less than their peers in the same positions with the same skills and responsibilities. They're also looking into giving raises to the men that we're found to have been getting paid less as well, and, yes, it's true there are hurdles to climb getting that done. However, that's not because they're favoring women or some perceived SJW attitude of "men bad, women good". It's because, thanks to a former Google admin, the starting wages for employees had not been well tracked or accurately distributed based on skill and experience. That applied to both men and women at all levels of the job. The only reason no one noticed or thought to look is precisely because it is almost unheard of for men to make the same or less than women, no one ever thought to even check.

Like every post in this sub though, no one cares about any of that.

[–]ObiWanCanShowMe 5 points6 points7 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

no one ever thought to even check

Yes, because most of the time it's not nefarious and there are other factors involved. No one thinks to check themselves if there not doing anything specific on purpose.

"hey Joe, I just checked, did you know Jane is getting paid less than John? Why is that Joe?"

"I have to assume she accepted our first offer and John asked for more..."

(BTW that isn't sexism, it's called good business)

"hey Joe, I just checked another one, did you know Mary is getting paid less than Bob? Why is that Joe?"

"It's because she's been with us for a year and Bob is nearing 20."

Context.

Right now anyone can claim they are not getting paid as much, and they do not need to concern themselves with context, the viral universe will light up with fiery pitchforks. A hollywood actress complains her 10 million is less than her costars 20 million who is male, but no one gives a shit about the 40 other people in the movie making scale or that the male co-star just came off of a billion dollar blockbuster and has a better agent and she could have been either asked for more or was competing for the spot with others.

no one cares about any of that.

As I mentioned above, it's two sides of the same coin, but really, be reasonable. There is a lot of talk about pay not being equal between the sexes, in many cases hyperbole, hubris and misinformation is part and parcel, and it is not always such a nice "discussion". So you have to be a little forgiving when there is push back and/or sarcasm/bitterness around this subject.

The guy who gets a little pissy and/or sarcastic isn't demanding congress get involved, screaming to the world our society is bad or all men are evil. He's just giggling.

It's not the same.

[–]MajesticMrPanda-1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Using the Hollywood analogy is disingenuous to the argument at best. As is anything that tries to justify away a wage gap between the genders that has more than enough evidence pointing to its existence. None of that is relevant to what my comment was replying to though. Which was someone lamenting that nothing was being done "because it effects men". Which was an ignorant comment based on nothing.

Also, no. I do not have to be a little forgiving. Hardly anyone in this country gets paid a livable wage, and, regardless of gender, that whole scheme needs to be reevaluated. However, women are, by and large, paid less for the exact same work as men in private industry and corporate settings. The only level playing field is food service and retail, where everyone who gets paid hourly is being shit on equally.

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They did and I think Google should receive praise for it.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/04/technology/google-gender-pay-gap.html

In response to the study, Google gave $9.7 million in additional compensation to 10,677 employees for this year. Men account for about 69 percent of the company’s work force, but they received a higher percentage of the money. The exact number of men who got raises is unclear.

The company has done the study every year since 2012. At the end of 2017, it adjusted 228 employees’ salaries by a combined total of about $270,000. This year, new hires were included in the analysis for the first time, which Google said probably explained the big change in numbers.

I'm so sick of these silicon valley tech companies claiming that they're doing what they can to fight gender discrimination when all they're doing is giving women preferential treatment. These are companies that are full of number crunching geniuses yet it feels like we're asking for a miracle when all we want them to do is break down the numbers objectively.

Companies like Google are free to investigate why more women aren't in tech fields but if part of the problem is unequal pay then why not start within your own company

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their sexist efforts backfire.

Except it's not sexism? They demanded equal pay, that's kind of the entire premise of their lawsuit backfiring?

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They demanded more pay on the grounds that they were not getting equal pay.

If they were simply demanding more pay, then it wouldn't fucking matter how much men would earn relative to them.

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They had no grounds, however.

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I do think the egalitarian understanding or perspective of life is housed within what I could classify as "feminine energy". We all of course have a varying composit of both masculine and feminine as all humans come from the fusion of both. In this framework, the masculine is where the deviations and objectivity begin. Comparisons arise relative to objectivity.

Neither being innately right or wrong, just different inputs into human life, and different lenses to see the world through.

An idea behind feminism is to perceive, and incorporate into the world that egalitarian perspective, where all things only are, and it's only through comparisons and treating one relative to an objective perspective that can disrupt the flow of equality. Feminism is more about unearthing more of that feminine energy and giving it more space to permeate culture.

Just for the record, I'm not putting any opinion out here, just sharing perspective.

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This actually happens with most high profile tech firms. It's not because of the "70 cents on the dollar" argument, it's an attempt to have a 50-50 split of male-female workers. If you go to any college and check out a computer science or engineering course you'll see that there's around 80% men in those courses. So qualified and educated female engineers are more rare than male engineers, and therefore will get paid more so that a company can reach the 50-50 split and boast their gender equality to the public.

A qualified female engineer will most likely get paid more than a male with the same qualifications/responsibilities simply because they are female.

[–]HKatzOnline 24 points25 points26 points 6 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

This actually happens with most high profile tech firms. It's not because of the "70 cents on the dollar" argument, it's an attempt to have a 50-50 split of male-female workers. If you go to any college and check out a computer science or engineering course you'll see that there's around 80% men in those courses. So qualified and educated female engineers are more rare than male engineers, and therefore will get paid more so that a company can reach the 50-50 split and boast their gender equality to the public.A qualified female engineer will most likely get paid more than a male with the same qualifications/responsibilities simply because they are female.

I agree about qualified female engineers being paid more because of making unofficial "quotas", but that is not what the plaintiffs were arguing. They made the argument that Google was specifically paying women less for the same roles, though anyone that was not biased and understood hiring and supply and demand had an idea the opposite was true.

Now, trying to get the 50-50 split just seems kind of strange. That seems to imply that men and women have homogeneous interests. Maybe more needs to be done to attract males into the lower paying fields such as social work, or women need to go into mining and garbage collection, though those types of solutions are NEVER going to happen as it does not fit the narrative.

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Umm no, that's not true at all. How do you even make this shit up?

Here's the actual story:

https://www.wired.com/story/men-google-paid-less-than-women-not-really/

At the end of every year, Google conducts a pay equity analysis to determine whether employees of different sexes and races who are doing similar jobs are being paid equally. On Monday, Google published a blog post with selected findings from its 2018 analysis, highlighting that proposed changes for 2019 would have paid male engineers less than female engineers in one lower-level job category, referred to internally as Level 4 engineers.

Since Google’s analysis caught the discrepancy before changes were implemented, the Level 4 male engineers were not paid less than women. The company’s annual analysis only compares employees in the same job category, so the results do not reflect race or gender differences in hiring and promotion.

The lawsuit was by the way about something else entirely: which payment category people are assigned to:

Kelly Ellis, a former Google software engineer and plaintiff in the lawsuit, claims she was hired in at Level 3, the category for recent college grads, despite having four years of professional experience. The lawsuit alleges that weeks after Ellis joined the company, Google hired a male engineer with the same experience at Level 4, which translated into a higher salary and potential access to bigger bonuses and more stock.

Google said it’s now analyzing whether women are being hired into lower levels than men with comparable backgrounds.

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Yes, we are talking a "self-study" and I am always wary of Google, but in this case, they are most likely not "lying" as the plaintiffs have switched from "they are paying women less for the same positions" to "they are slotting women into lower positions with the same qualifications".

From an NYTimes article on the subject " Kelly Ellis, a former Google engineer and one of the plaintiffs in the gender-pay suit against the company, said in a legal filing that Google had hired her in 2010 as a Level 3 employee — the category for new software engineers who are recent college graduates — despite her four years of experience. Within a few weeks, a male engineer who had also graduated from college four years earlier was hired for Ms. Ellis’s team — as a Level 4 employee. "

She is claiming that for this example, both she and the male new hire had 4 years "experience". She does NOT mention the types of experience. For all we know, she could have been help desk and he had machine-learning / AI experience and was pursuing an MS / PhD. It is what is not said. All "experience" is not always equal in value.

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SAN FRANCISCO — When Google conducted a study recently to determine whether the company was underpaying women and members of minority groups, it found, to the surprise of just about everyone, that men were paid less money than women for doing similar work.

The study, which disproportionately led to pay raises for thousands of men, is done every year, but the latest findings arrived as Google and other companies in Silicon Valley face increasing pressure to deal with gender issues in the workplace, from sexual harassment to wage discrimination.

Gender inequality is a radioactive topic at Google. The Labor Department is investigating whether the company systematically underpays women. It has been sued by former employees who claim they were paid less than men with the same qualifications. And last fall, thousands of Google employees protested the way the company handles sexual harassment claims against top executives.

Critics said the results of the pay study could give a false impression. Company officials acknowledged that it did not address whether women were hired at a lower pay grade than men with similar qualifications.

Google seems to be advancing a “flawed and incomplete sense of equality” by making sure men and women receive similar salaries for similar work, said Joelle Emerson, chief executive of Paradigm, a consulting company that advises companies on strategies for increasing diversity. That is not the same as addressing “equity,” she said, which would involve examining the structural hurdles that women face as engineers.

Google has denied paying women less, and the company agreed that compensation among similar job titles was not by itself a complete measure of equity. A more difficult issue to solve — one that critics say Google often mismanages for women — is a human resources concept called leveling. Are employees assigned to the appropriate pay grade for their qualifications?

The company said it was now trying to address the issue.

“Because leveling, performance ratings and promotion impact pay, this year we are undertaking a comprehensive review of these processes to make sure the outcomes are fair and equitable for all employees,” Lauren Barbato, Google’s lead analyst for pay equity, people analytics, wrote in a blog post made public on Monday.

To set an employee’s salary, Google starts with an algorithm using factors like performance, location and job. Next, managers can consider subjective factors: Do they believe the employee has a strong future with the company? Is he or she being paid on a par with peers who make similar contributions? Managers must provide a rationale for the decision.

While the pay bump is helpful, Google’s critics say it doesn’t come close to matching what a woman would make if she had been assigned to the appropriate pay grade in the first place.

Kelly Ellis, a former Google engineer and one of the plaintiffs in the gender-pay suit against the company, said in a legal filing that Google had hired her in 2010 as a Level 3 employee — the category for new software engineers who are recent college graduates — despite her four years of experience. Within a few weeks, a male engineer who had also graduated from college four years earlier was hired for Ms. Ellis’s team — as a Level 4 employee. That meant he received a higher salary and had more opportunities for bonuses, raises and stock compensation, according to the suit. Other men on the team whose qualifications were equal to or less than hers were also brought in at Level 4, the suit says.

The claim could become a class-action suit representing more than 8,300 current and former female employees.

The pay study covered 91 percent of Google’s employees and compared their compensation — salaries, bonuses and company stock — within specific job types, job levels, performance and location.

It was not possible to compare how racial minorities fared in terms of wage adjustments, Google said, because the United States is the only place where the global company tracks workers’ racial backgrounds.

In response to the study, Google gave $9.7 million in additional compensation to 10,677 employees for this year. Men account for about 69 percent of the company’s work force, but they received a higher percentage of the money. The exact number of men who got raises is unclear.

The company has done the study every year since 2012. At the end of 2017, it adjusted 228 employees’ salaries by a combined total of about $270,000. This year, new hires were included in the analysis for the first time, which Google said probably explained the big change in numbers.

Google’s work force, especially in leadership and high-paying technical roles, is overwhelmingly male and mostly white and Asian. Its efforts to increase diversity have touched off an internal culture war. In 2017, James Damore, a software engineer, wrote a widely circulated memo criticizing the company’s diversity programs. He argued that biological differences and not a lack of opportunity explained the shortage of women in upper-tier positions.

When Google fired Mr. Damore, conservatives argued that the company was dominated by people with liberal political and social views. Mr. Damore sued Google, claiming it is biased against white men with conservative views. The matter has been moved to private arbitration. Its status is unclear.

Google’s parent company, Alphabet, said it had 98,771 employees at the end of 2018. The company declined to provide the number of Google employees, but Google is by far the largest part of the company.

Google informed employees about the findings of its latest pay study in January at a meeting called to discuss a memo about cost-cutting proposals that had been leaked publicly. The proposals, reported earlier by Bloomberg, caused an uproar because they included ideas like slowing the pace at which Google promotes workers and eliminating some of its famous perks.

At the meeting, Sundar Pichai, Google’s chief executive, played down the proposals as the product of brainstorming by members of the human resources staff and not things that senior managers were seriously considering, according to a video viewed by The New York Times.

But in an effort to demonstrate that Google was not skimping on wages, executives said at the meeting that the company had adjusted the pay of more employees than ever before. Ms. Barbato, who presented the findings, said that more men were underpaid was a “surprising trend that we didn’t expect.”

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I can't access the NYTimes article, but the way the meme represents the story is completely off.

Here's an in-depth look into it: Wired: Were Men at Google Paid Less Than Women? Not Really

At the end of every year, Google conducts a pay equity analysis to determine whether employees of different sexes and races who are doing similar jobs are being paid equally. On Monday, Google published a blog post with selected findings from its 2018 analysis, highlighting that proposed changes for 2019 would have paid male engineers less than female engineers in one lower-level job category, referred to internally as Level 4 engineers.

Since Google’s analysis caught the discrepancy before changes were implemented, the Level 4 male engineers were not paid less than women. The company’s annual analysis only compares employees in the same job category, so the results do not reflect race or gender differences in hiring and promotion.

That's the key part of the article, but one should really read it in full as there are more caveats later on.

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I came here from the front page and am a female. I wouldn’t consider myself a huge feminist, but I was going to comment about something I saw about how the “gender gap” seems to be more of punishment for women having children vs. women not being equally paid. Men are able to take on more responsibilities in their careers and advance while women often have to turn down opportunities and advancements to care for children.

However, reading that “women have had equal rights for a century” is just disheartening. Items marketed towards women cost more (razors, deodorant, soap, etc), very few women hold C-suite positions, women still bear most of the weight in households, from having to leave work to care for newborns, care for sick children, etc.

A Smithsonian study found that 66% of female military members have experienced sexual harassment or assault. Many women have multiple precautions they take to be safe (mace keychains, parking in well-lit areas, run/exercise in loose clothing to avoid unsolicited commentary, etc).

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Feminists in shambles lol

[–]magamix1 points 6 years ago* [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Nope, extreme denial, deflection and projection ensues. You damn patriarchy enablers!

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[–]SilverQuiet1 points 6 years ago [recovered] (20 children) | Copy Link

When all the evidence claiming there is a "wage gap" uses stats that ignore number of hours worked, experience, and job differences, it's pretty easy to see that this "evidence" is straight up propaganda and not factual.

Don't you agree?

[–]tapdancingintomordor-2 points 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]SilverQuiet1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]tapdancingintomordor1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

But that's a different issue. Whether or not solutions proposed by feminists are appropriate doesn't matter when your claim was that "When all the evidence claiming there is a "wage gap" uses stats that ignore number of hours worked, experience, and job differences, it's pretty easy to see that this "evidence" is straight up propaganda and not factual." You even say that you agree that it's much more complicated than what your original statement said. The point still stands, it's not about ignoring those controls as much as saying that they are part of the problem.

Is your gripe that it's called wage gap? You need to be able to look beyond that. And I have no idea why you think that feminists don't talk about changing the way we educate kids, anti-feminists hates them for doing that too.

[–]SilverQuiet1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Is your gripe that it's called wage gap? You need to be able to look beyond that.

I think my comments have shown that I'm able to "look beyond that" and ascertain the plausible problems (and solutions) accurately. That doesn't change the fact that I'm gonna call out active attempt at deception (whatever what it is about) when I see it, and that includes pushing the idea that women aren't paid enough as they should for the jobs they do because of a wage gap that has nothing to do with that.

And I have no idea why you think that feminists don't talk about changing the way we educate kids

Oh they certainly do, never claimed otherwise. It's not like feminists are all one entity or a hive mind of people that only focus on one problem. My gripe is that the majority, or the one represented in media at least, don't push that idea nearly even close to how much they push the idea that women get underpaid. The number of times I've heard about problems with how women get paid versus how we should educate kids is probably 20 to 1. Mostly because it makes for better sensationalist media, I assume.

My other gripe is that the solutions to that problems take dozen of years to take effect. Most data is not representative of the reality of our society. For instance, we already have more women going to college/university than men, yet nobody talks about that. To me, this problem is massively overblown and has most likely been fixed for the most part already.

[–]tapdancingintomordor1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I think my comments have shown that I'm able to "look beyond that" and ascertain the plausible problems (and solutions) accurately. That doesn't change the fact that I'm gonna call out active attempt at deception (whatever what it is about) when I see it, and that includes pushing the idea that women aren't paid enough as they should for the jobs they do because of a wage gap that has nothing to do with that.

I really have no idea what you've said in other comments, I have no interest to go look for them in a long thread. So no, your comments to me haven't shown anything.

Oh they certainly do, never claimed otherwise. It's not like feminists are all one entity or a hive mind of people that only focus on one problem. My gripe is that the majority, or the one represented in media at least, don't push that idea nearly even close to how much they push the idea that women get underpaid. The number of times I've heard about problems with how women get paid versus how we should educate kids is probable 20 to 1. Mostly because it makes for better sensationalism media, I assume.

Kind of weird to assume things about an issue based on what you hear in the media though.

[–]SilverQuiet1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I really have no idea what you've said in other comments, I have no interest to go look for them in a long thread. So no, your comments to me haven't shown anything.

The evidence is right here in my comments to you lol. I pointed out how, yes, the data shows there was (and still is to a much lesser degree) some kind of discrimination (most likely in the form of how we educate our kids). Doesn't that tell you I'm able to look beyond the fact that "evil feminists try to deceit me duur duur dur!!"?

Kind of weird to assume things about an issue based on what you hear in the media though.

You claim I "assume things", not sure what you mean. I make my judgments about that I think is problematic in society and how we should fix it by looking at the data gathered by experts in their field.

I make my judgments about what ideas a group of people (ie feminists) are trying to push by looking at what they put in the media for others to consume. Don't you think it's fair?

From that approach, my conclusion is that:

1) There was and still is discrimination that we have already started addressing successfully (ie women are getting more education than men already).

2) Feminists are mostly trying to deceit people by misrepresenting a problem.

[–]I-Am-Dad-Bot1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]tapdancingintomordor1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The evidence is right here in my comments to you lol. I pointed out how, yes, the data shows there was (and still is to a much lesser degree) some kind of discrimination (most likely in the form of how we educate our kids). Doesn't that tell you I'm able to look beyond the fact that "evil feminists try to deceit me duur duur dur!!"?

"BUT, the way the data is presented, and the solutions proposed by feminists, is absolutely not appropriate for the actual situation that we are in." Are you telling me that you don't complain about how feminists talk about these issues? Because it really sounds like you do. That is also your second point below.

You claim I "assume things", not sure what you mean. I make my judgments about that I think is problematic in society and how we should fix it by looking at the data gathered by experts in their field.

I make my judgments about what ideas a group of people (ie feminists) are trying to push by looking at what they put in the media for others to consume. Don't you think it's fair?

No, I think media is pretty bad at presenting a specific issue from every possible angle and give it the proper weights, that's why it leads to assumptions about what feminists do. They have talked about gender stereotypes and gender roles at least since the 50s, that has been one major idea. If you still say that "The number of times I've heard about problems with how women get paid versus how we should educate kids is probably 20 to 1" it should be clear that media isn't presenting the actual ideas.

[–]SilverQuiet1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Are you telling me that you don't complain about how feminists talk about these issues? Because it really sounds like you do. That is also your second point below.

I assumed when you said I needed to "look past that" you meant I needed to see the see the actual problem even if the messenger (feminists) sucked at describing it, which I do. I didn't think you were actually asking me to "look past" how fucking deceitful feminists are so that I could like them anyway lol. Why the hell would I do that? Why would I not complain about how feminists talk about these issues lol? They are being willfully deceitful! I don't care if I agree with you, if you are trying to manipulate me I won't support your group.

No, I think media is pretty bad at presenting a specific issue from every possible angle and give it the proper weights, that's why it leads to assumptions about what feminists do.

It's the feminists that use the media that way lol. I'm not talking about CNN or whatever other news here. I'm literally talking about what and how feminists talk and how they report things on the internet or articles they write. I'm judging them by their literal actions, how is that not fair?

They have talked about gender stereotypes and gender roles at least since the 50s, that has been one major idea.

I never said they have not. I'm saying when it comes to wage gap, most of them are being willfully deceitful and this is not okay.

You seem more preoccupied with the fact that I should like feminists rather than the fact that I should supports what's right for society. You are giving me a pretty good example of everything I hate about modern feminism lol.

[–]tapdancingintomordor1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I assumed when you said I needed to "look past that" you meant I needed to see the see the actual problem even if the messenger (feminists) sucked at describing it, which I do. I didn't think you were actually asking me to "look past" how fucking deceitful feminists are so that I could like them anyway lol. Why the hell would I do that? Why would I not complain about how feminists talk about these issues lol? They are being willfully deceitful! I don't care if I agree with you, if you are trying to manipulate me I won't support your group.

Or maybe it's just different perspectives. That could be it. No, it must be that they're trying to deceive us.

It's the feminists that use the media that way lol. I'm not talking about CNN or whatever other news here. I'm literally talking about what and how feminists talk and how they report things on the internet or articles they write. I'm judging them by their literal actions, how is that not fair?

But then your view is wrong, and your attempt to tell me that they don't talk about what they actually talk about is fucking deceitful.

I never said they have not. I'm saying when it comes to wage gap, most of them are being willfully deceitful and this is not okay.

You seem more preoccupied with the fact that I should like feminists rather than the fact that I should supports what's right for society. You are giving me a pretty good example of everything I hate about modern feminism lol.

No, I have never at any point implied that you should like feminists. I'm not even one myself so I really don't give a fuck about that. You could try to actually understand them though, which you obviously haven't tried despite stating otherwise. I assume that's just modern anti-feminism, a whole bunch of strawmen and painting them as evil.

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[–]FreeThoughts22 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago* (11 children) | Copy Link

It is literally conspiracy theory and complex. It’s like if someone said the sky is white. Clearly the sky is blue, but technically when a cloud blows over its white then at night it’s blackish then at sunset it’s redish and sometimes there are rainbows that make it all the colors minus grey and brown. So for all intensive purposes there is no gender wage gap. Does the average women get paid less than the average man? Absolutely they do and that is a certifiable fact just like saying the sky is green, but literally no one plans their life based on the fact the sky is green. Most people would plan their life based on a blue sky because that is in fact the typical color. There is absolutely a gender wage gap in the Middle East while it is near non existent in westernized countries. The reason the average man makes more than the average woman is the same reason men are responsible for 95% plus of work place fatalities. Men take on more risk, work longer hours, sacrifice family for work, are more willing to move for more pay, and more likely to be interested in engineering and math which leads to higher paying jobs.

[–]tapdancingintomordor 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (10 children) | Copy Link

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[–]tapdancingintomordor 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (6 children) | Copy Link

I don’t think she should get paid more for the same reason I don’t think stay at home men should get paid more. You are literally arguing for a gender pay gap when you complain about a gender pay gap that doesn’t exist.

I have no idea what this refers to since it got nothing to do with what I've said. The actual point, the one that you clearly don't understand while still calling it a conspiracy theory, is that choices are in fact affected by society, and not necessarily in a positive way. You have already touched upon it without realizing it, because in those poorer countries where the gap is even larger, having children have been seen as far more important, both as an insurance for the future and since it gives them honor. It's their choices, but choices based on social factors, and that's why we also have seen lower fertility rates with better development.

[–]FreeThoughts221 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]tapdancingintomordor1 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It’s been known for a very long time fertility rates in the west are not meeting replacement. This has nothing to do with the conspiracy wage pay gap.

Except that gap has shrunk when women have decided they want to be on the labor market instead of giving birth.

You are literally just saying poor women have more kids. What is the point of you even mentioning it when we are talking about a wage pay gap? The whole point of people bringing up the wage pay gap is to bring up discrimination.

There are more than one kind of discrimination. One that says women deserves less pay when everything else is equal. Believe it or not, this is not what people usually refers to. Instead it's about ideas what women are supposed to do that we don't expect of men. Such as the idea that they should not work much at all, and instead have children.

Since the gap doesn’t actually exist there isn’t a discrimination problem.

The gap obviously exists, otherwise we wouldn't have this discussion. The issue is that you think it can be explained by things that are part of the problem, and therefore make it go away.

[–]FreeThoughts221 point 6 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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Ok men of Google threaten a law suit if there is no equal pay.

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Yes in order to reduce the gap

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The gender wage gap is a myth: http://www.payscale.com/gender-lifetime-earnings-gap?r=1

Now how about we address male suicide rates, homicide rates, and education drop-outs. But nah fuck men.

[–]JustLikeFM 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]JustLikeFM 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

"Critics said the results of the pay study could give a false impression. Company officials acknowledged that it did not address whether women were hired at a lower pay grade than men with similar qualifications.

Interested in All Things Tech? The Bits newsletter will keep you updated on the latest from Silicon Valley and the technology industry.

Google seems to be advancing a “flawed and incomplete sense of equality” by making sure men and women receive similar salaries for similar work, said Joelle Emerson, chief executive of Paradigm, a consulting company that advises companies on strategies for increasing diversity. That is not the same as addressing “equity,” she said, which would involve examining the structural hurdles that women face as engineers.

Google has denied paying women less, and the company agreed that compensation among similar job titles was not by itself a complete measure of equity. A more difficult issue to solve — one that critics say Google often mismanages for women — is a human resources concept called leveling. Are employees assigned to the appropriate pay grade for their qualifications?"

Source: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/04/technology/google-gender-pay-gap.html

If you actually look into it there's actual good reasons for women complaining about this at Google. Do some research before you hop on the band wagon of hate on women. This sub is not for misogyny, but a lot of comment here seem to forget that.

[–]ZacEfronButUgly 2 points3 points4 points 6 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

For everyone saying Google will do nothing: "That led to Google paying $9.7 million to adjust pay for 10,677 employees". This came after, in 2017, women reported the company for being sexist against women, Google counteracted this by saying they didn't account for other factors, like experience, etc...

This adjustment was made purely in result to the findings in their pay disparity results. It's not clear on the percentage of men and women who were apart of this adjustment.

The New York Times, after finding out about Googles plan to adjust the salaires of employees to end the gap stated that "men will receive a disproportionately higher percentage of the money". In my view, that's to be expected since it was disproportionally men who were affected.

This disparity has only affected Level 4 Software engineers. Google managers receive a thing called discretionary funds. Essentially a pool of money used to better reflect an individuals performance by giving them a sort of 'bonus' on top of their base pay. It's up to them to distribute it responsibly to thos who deserve it. The base pay of all engineers was the same. It was these additional funds that caused a massive difference.

The exact level of the disparity averages about $908 more that women in this category took home, per year.

Also, after that initial lawsuit by the female Google workers, Google was sued, for discrimination against men by James Damore, the guy who wrote that memo highlighting the biological differences between men and women, but stating how we are equal in capability, was fired for it.

A worker at Youtube has also recently sued Google for discrimination against white and asian men.

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I know this is just a pesonal anicdote from a stranger on the internet but I'm curious nonetheless. Experience asside.

Do you work the same amount of days\hours?

Do you call in sick and\or leave early more than her?

Do you have the same workload. Basically is there a difference in the number of projects or clients that you're expected to manager (again, actual experience asside).

Does she produce more than you? Is there a difference in the number of projects that she actually completes vs. what you complete?

Does she work on more difficult projects than you on a regular basis.

Do you directly or indirectly cause any issues in the office regularly that she doesn't? Such as complaints against other cooworkers (validity asside) or problems getting along with people in a basic professional sense? Participate in gossip, etc.

[–]VanillaTortilla 1 point2 points3 points 6 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Do you work the same amount of days\hours?

Yes. In fact, her schedule is better than mine as in she gets a 4 day weekend every other week. Personal preference though.

Do you call in sick and\or leave early more than her?

Absolutely not. She takes time off every month, and often at the last minute. She expects us to cover for her (it's required), but in my 3 years of working with her, she has never once covered for anyone else. She will also often be out the door before her replacement arrives.

Do you have the same workload. Basically is there a difference in the number of projects or clients that you're expected to manager (again, actual experience asside).

On paper? Yes, same exact workload. She consistently, and purposefully, half-asses her work so that other people will do it for her. She's been in the same position for 8 years, but still does not know how to do simple tasks that are part of the job.

Does she produce more than you? Is there a difference in the number of projects that she actually completes vs. what you complete?

No. I've looked at her past work (it's all in a ticketing system after all), and my "time worked" is close to hers, while having 5 fewer years on the job. Our most recent departmental/campus project has a total of 89 hours worked, and I put in 61 of them, while she has 1.

Does she work on more difficult projects than you on a regular basis.

Absolutely not. She technically has a different skill set, which she's put to use once.

Do you directly or indirectly cause any issues in the office regularly that she doesn't? Such as complaints against other cooworkers (validity asside) or problems getting along with people in a basic professional sense? Participate in gossip, etc.

Now this is a funny one, because I've caused zero issues. She fought with our previous manager on multiple occasions, gossips constantly, will ignore customers simply because she doesn't know how to help them, etc. She is the one who does all of the things you mention.

Word from a couple people I work with is that she's threatened to go to HR if they try to fire her and claim it's unfair because she's a woman. She is the kind of person who I could definitely see doing it as well.

Another fun fact about her is that she complains about her pay constantly. I mean, every week, every review period, she claims she makes less now, than when she started (inflation); though she did just show up in a brand new Mercedes so.. that's cool.

[–]OCNoob1 4 points5 points6 points 6 years ago (3 children) | Copy Link

Now this is a funny one

I figured it would be. I phrased my questions the way I did intentionally.

This is the same story in vast majority of the places I've worked and I hear this same story over and over again from colleagues I don't directly work with as well as from ones I do work with.

Let me preface this by saying this isn't 100% of women, but it's definitely the majority.

Women call in sick, leave early. Half ass their work either out of laziness or ineptitude. Or from some crazy sense of entitlement that makes them think they shouldn't have to do their work. The male counterparts often end up picking up much of the slack and bitch about it way less.

And the gossip and pettiness. Recently two women in my office were visibly pissed at each other for months because one said something about the other's preference not to wash meat before she cooked it. Management ended up involved. I shit you not.

I will say I do work with one woman in particular who's one of the smartest, most hardworking, competent people there. But she is absolutely an exception to the rule.

[–]VanillaTortilla 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

You're right, and I don't think anyone (minus some... selective groups) think it's 100% of women. In fact, I've worked with many women in other jobs who were great to work with. Actually, because I work in IT, it's harder for women to be in positions of power, yet there are quite a few where I am.

The problem is that men really have no way to fight against this kind of bs. HR gets called in about an issue, and of course HR is mostly women so that's out of the question. It's like you have to hope they either fuck up too much all at once, or leave of their own volition.

I find that most of the exceptions are the ones who also have to put up with the ones who aren't the exception, like men do. Granted, not all men are hard workers either, but many women I've found seem to think they're entitled to more rewards for less work.

The whole thing is absolutely infuriating. She's been saying for 5 years now that she wants to leave, and that once she gets her degree she's gone. Good, leave, asap. I often wonder why they couldn't just replace her with another woman (maybe a minority, who knows, it's a university after all), pay her what the others make, and hope that goes better. Maybe that sounds horrible, maybe not, but it's sad it's never been brought up.

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I've seen this a million times, but I'm not sure if I've ever seen anyone fact check it.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/04/technology/google-gender-pay-gap.html

Surprisingly, this is actually pretty legit.

[–]JustLikeFM 0 points1 point2 points 6 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]_Cub3_1 points 6 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

I know that, the statistics of pay at google show a very simplified version of the whole story, and women are probably worse off overall.

The reason I posted this is because 99% of this "men have it so tough boohoo" stuff is total crap, and I was surprised to find this has some merit to it.

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Yo Karen, did you not read the article? They basically said that men were getting more money, at google, for the same job they were doing.

Google goes and does some analysis. I doubt this took too long because. Google.

Anyhoo, they do some analysis, fact-checking if you wish, and found that indeed there was a pay gap.

The gap was that women were paid more than their male counterparts. Oh fuck. How could this be? Could it be because women are actually actively paid more in companies like these to avoid this kind of shit? F’sure. Am I also speaking out of my ass? Possibly. But that’s not the point, Karen!

...Anyway, coming back on tangent cuz look what you made me do...

They increased the male salaries to match the female salary.

This is PUSSY PASS DENIED because said women have a vagina (pussy) and felt entitled to a pay rise because they thought men were getting more money than them (pass) but reality was men were getting less so they (the affected men) got a pay rise (denied).

I hope this clarification works for you, Karen.

Thank you.

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Comments

SELF INFLICTED HEADSHOT

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bruh 🤣🤙😎🤙😤

Title	That’s what I thought
Author	abh4500
Upvotes	33571
Comments	786
Date	October 16, 2019 4:39 PM UTC (6 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PussyPassDenied
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/pussypassdenied/comments/dirwld/thats_what_i_thought/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PussyPassDenied/thats-what-i-thought.1069947 https://theredarchive.com/post/1069947