Switching around "Commitment" for "Sex" may allow more empathy between the sexes?

SignifyingNothing5 · 2024-02-02T23:46:45+00:00

This is a good, reasonable way to nudge people toward a different perspective. As evidenced by the responses, people tend to resist nudges, but it's still a good try.

MisterFunnyShoes · 2024-02-02T23:31:46+00:00

It’s almost like the male and female imperatives conflict with one another. And one of them has to budge.

aslfingerspell · 2024-02-03T00:05:45+00:00

This is honestly one of the freshest takes I've seen in a while. Gender flipping is one thing but like you said, it's not real empathy since different people can have different goals.

Gender AND concept flipping scenarios is really cool.

Acceptable-Truck3803 · 2024-02-02T23:38:59+00:00

You got it pretty well. Bravo.

womandatory · 2024-02-02T23:18:41+00:00

This is actually a pretty good take.

ASTRO-MAGIC · 2024-02-03T00:58:43+00:00

This might be the best take I've ever seen on this sub, you have me very deep in thought. I actually want to try to talking about this to some of my friends IRL to see what they might think.

Randomwoowoo · 2024-02-03T06:54:21+00:00

Man, I just hate games. I don’t care if you gave it up and make me wait. I don’t care about gender or perspective reversal.

Just don’t play games.

It’s not that hard. And I’ve dumped many people who try to play them, including “shit testing” stuff.

Nope. You be honest. I’ll be honest. Your past literally doesn’t matter. Just be honest with me. And prove that honesty with your actions, rather than words.

ArmariumEspada · 2024-02-03T00:27:23+00:00

I’ll keep saying this as much as I have to:

Women do not “control” access to sex.

Sex requires the man’s consent just as much. Men reject sex as well as women. And men aren’t enslaved by our sexual desires or incapable of denying sex. These are all misandrist lies, and the irony is that believers in the “red pill” ideology don’t even realize they’re degrading men by promoting them.

ArmariumEspada · 2024-02-03T00:37:46+00:00

So men’s main desire is simply carnal pleasure but women are morally “superior” and desire a meaningful relationship/connection. Yeah, this is just an anti-man lie that seems to degrade men and elevate women to a moral high ground.

Also, the way women easily pursue and desire sex with certain men would debunk this trope.

raldabos · 2024-02-02T23:36:33+00:00

No. Another idea that most women have is that they are these angels who are above men and don't cheat and are always 100% commited to a relationship. The truth is women cheating/abusing their partners have been on the rise for a while now, if anything that's just show how much more difficult men have it: Women can have sex whenever they want it, but commitment is difficult. For men having sex OR commitment is difficult.

Of course most women here are okey with that idea. It makes them look like they are the "good" genre and men the "bad" genre who is only looking to have sex and doesn't care about commitment.

doggiedoc2004 · 2024-02-03T02:59:46+00:00

One of the better posts I’ve seen on here. Great way to look at both sides.

Independent-Mail-227 · 2024-02-03T00:41:07+00:00

Women will just rationalize it so in the end only men would bulge making it a proposition that only benefit women.

Proudvow · 2024-02-03T00:54:21+00:00

Girl is okay with it originally but becomes hurt after finding out that in the past, he used to be down for a relationship from the get go and be perfectly fine with committing for a while before sex.

She wonders if that means the other girls had a stronger effect on him, while she has to "chase him down" and "entice him with sex" for a while before he considers a committed relationship.

Well here's the thing: Society tells men to do this. Men are raised to respect women, get to know them as people, and not objectify them. Which lends itself towards commitment prior to sex. The reason a guy who used to do that stops is often just because he realized rules are for suckers; other men get away with breaking them, while women don't really respect your efforts to follow them.

In the woman's case society didn't tell her to hook up with a bunch of men. No parents are raising their daughters to sleep around. In fact society advises against doing so. So in having casual sex with a man she's indicating that he's so desirable that she has to bang him regardless of what the rest of the world says.

So the analogy isn't directly parallel because the reason a man waits is generally him trying to be a decent guy while the reason a woman doesn't wait is generally just her really wanting the guy.

darkwindhowls · 2024-02-03T06:10:35+00:00

Any man with half a brain understands this concept.

Yes, you are correct.

The current dating model is stupid because women want to "take their time" with sex aka extract gf treatment without being a gf for as long as possible.

It makes no sense to take a woman out and pay for dinner/watch movies/do social things if she is not your gf. You're not getting sex. You're not getting her undivided attention. You are literally signing up to audition for a woman who by odds is not a supermodel or otherwise anything special.

As more and more men find out the truth about female (and just general) attraction, there will be less and less tolerance/willingness to "court."

Meet her, assess quickly if she's sexually attracted to you and if the test comes back negative, leave.

It's such an easy approach that works.

You avoid wasting time tap dancing for some girl who might feel a spark on the 6th date. You avoid losing anything if she decides to ghost (you got laid). You interact with her in a far more comfortable environment (one where physical intimacy is permitted and allowed) which makes getting to know her much easier. You avoid being the moron who takes a girl out who is putting off sex with you because she is currently fucking another guy nsa who she wants to commit and is more or less using you to either make herself better or as a bargaining chip to make the guy she really wants commit (women do this fairly often, there are several posts in the dating subs about women banging some guy deciding to 'go on some dates' with a hapless dude who 'treats them like a lady' and 'makes them feel good,' and maybe after a month and a half of dating the new guy will break it off with the other guy....do you want to be this man?).

0 downside.

toasterchild · 2024-02-02T23:29:39+00:00

I don't even see that they are upset about different things here, really they are upset if they compare their relationship to their partner's other relationships. Unless you are the identical person to their ex there is a good chance the relationship dynamic will be different because you are different, comparing yourself to other people will make you insane, avoid it then you won't have to try to console yourself or try to get your partner to understand.

GlumManufacturer1557 · 2024-02-03T03:20:17+00:00

I actually kind of disagree. If you met the perfect woman: shes amazing and just right for you in every way. Would you just want to be fuck buddies with her? I dont think most men would say yes, and would rather pursue a full relationship, that obviously includes sex, but maybe later than "expected".

But, in the contrary, if women met the perfect guy, many would still not want to only be friends with benefits and would still try for a relationship instead. I, for example, would not be "okay" with casually "being" with any guy at all, and it really doesnt matter if he has been in relationships before or not.

I think this is because a loving relationship implies sex, but sex itself doesnt imply love. If I want to, say, marry a man, It means I both find him very attractive and actually also love him as a human being, and that cant really be twisted to be an insult to him. Even if a girl hypothetically wanted other men just because of their appearences, so had sex earlier. While some men just want sex, so him having actual relationships with other women meant they had something the new woman doesnt.

The last paragraph was also assuming that men are actually attracted to everyone they want to sleep with, which is not even true. So when a guy wants to have fwb with a girl, it means nothing at all. Maybe that he thinks shes easy. When a girl wants fwb with a guy, it only means she thinks hes hot. When a girl wants a relationship with a guy, she does think hes hot but appreciates him for a lot more than that.

Innanaspeaks · 2024-02-03T00:41:46+00:00

I really can't relate. In my experience it's always the guy wanting to lock down the girl as soon as possible. Maybe it's just the guys I meet but I don't think so. I met a buff sucessful guy at speed dating and he wanted to take me home to meet his mum!

I don't think it's so binary. Most people just drift into committed relationships.

cinnamongirl444 · 2024-02-03T20:38:51+00:00

I feel like this is what the song Running Up That Hill (A Deal with God) is about

WowYouMustBeJoking · 2024-02-02T23:22:30+00:00

He wonders if that means the other guys had a stronger effect on her and he's just not attractive enough to have her take the risk of "being used for sex" (As in, it turns out the guy was just lying about feelings to get into her pants).

He shouldn't. His instinct is correct. She wasn't born a day before she started hooking up with men. She was raised in a society, she absolutely knew she shouldn't jump to bed with strangers, she absolutely knew that virginity is valuable (or at least low men count), she knew men are disgusted by hoes and lying et etc etc. Indeed, those other guys were just too attractive for her to follow her upbringing and social conditioning. Because if she made those other guys wait they would leave and she didn't want that. On the other hand, if this guy leaves she doesn't care as much, so might as well make him wait.

Girl is okay with it originally but becomes hurt after finding out that in the past, he used to be down for a relationship from the get go and be perfectly fine with committing for a while before sex.

At that stage his commitment is just not chasing other women (maybe?) and spending money/resources on her. So it's not quite a flipped scenario. If a woman has sex, she didn't lose any sex, she can do it again anytime. She still has it. If he spent money on a woman for nothing, well, he's out of that money and needs time to earn it back. So that's only financially responsible to be slow to commit. Like this comes with age, not experience. Or rather with experience with money, not in relationships.

desert_fly · 2024-02-03T02:52:38+00:00

Nice hypothetical but I still don't get the problem. 😅

If he wants a casual relationship, that's it, as I don't do casual. It doesn't bother my in the least what he did or didn't do with other women.

And I'm certainly not doubting my self-worth - why would I?

I'm looking for a man who WANTS to commit to me, not someone who views it as a trade-off.

AngeCruelle · 2024-02-03T01:20:24+00:00

Girl is okay with it originally but becomes hurt after finding out that in the past, he used to be down for a relationship from the get go and be perfectly fine with committing for a while before sex.

This "what others got in the past" bullshit sounds equally juvenile to me regardless of gender. How about not being a mindless drone who can only figure out their desires when it's a competition with someone's ex.

mr8p6h · 2024-02-02T23:14:13+00:00

Nah, most likely you've just been huffing too much RP dogma. Both men and women need sex and both men and women need commitment, at least on average. The sexes are one basic template with minor variations, not two totally different kinds of human being.

odd_cloud · 2024-02-03T00:27:52+00:00

Good analogy imo. It doesn’t really catch the whole situation. The problem is women sometimes want commitment and sometimes don’t, while men are pretty much always open for sex. However, this analogy is as close as we can get to the description.

Altruistic_Talk_828 · 2024-02-03T02:09:53+00:00

Women don't want commitment, they want status.

boom-wham-slam · 2024-02-03T04:04:02+00:00

The ol' red pill saying "women are the gate keepers of sex, men are the gate keepers of relationships"

So basically what everyone knew for generations. Glad you finally caught on.

Next breaking news... I think dating can be explained by don't buy the cow when you can get the milk for free. Smh. Lol

SmallSituation6432 · 2024-02-03T05:52:30+00:00

I see what your trying to do here mate, and I don't question your sincerity so I'll try not to be harsh but this is not a good road to go down.

This is not empathy. in fact, used too broadly, which your post gets damn close to, it is antithetical to empathy. You've tried to twist an entirety different mode of thinking to fit yours, and used that as an example of empathy. Empathy is actually trying to inhabit another persons experience and modes of thinking. Basically, You found a way to fit that square peg in a round hole and called it a solution.

Its not even like you committed some horrible mistake, but I hope you are aware how close to appeasement that line of thinking can get to if you apply it in other situations, and how limiting it will be to broader understanding and perspectives if used too often.

Sometimes you just have to believe people even if you don't understand, rather than trying to force a way to understand. Understanding can come after belief and acceptance. This is ultimately the deciding factor between socially competent people and the kind of trolls you find on here. The trolls demand things be explained to them in a way they find acceptable, or they try and fit everything into a pre-determined frame. That is not you, I'm not trying to call you out or anything, but again you are flying far to close to the sun on that point.

EmbarrassedClient283 · 2024-02-03T07:23:08+00:00

I don't really need to do flips I do understand women's position on almost everything and it seems logical to me, but I separate what they say and what they actually do, what they say has almost no importance to me only what they do, and what they do seems very intuitive to me.

SeveralAcorns · 2024-02-03T10:27:11+00:00

What do you think? Have you ever tried such a switch before and has it helped you understand where the other person might be coming from?

It helps a lot to explain to men and women that sex and attention are equivalent. Men want sex like women want attention. Men go to online dating for sex, women go to online dating for attention. The problem is, attention is front loaded, so after they got it ,there is no reason to have sex anymore. Don't give women all the attention they want from you before they have sex with you. Yes, there is a an inflation of cheap attention. Give meaningful attention, as that is more valuable than cheap attention.

Lower-Director1043 · 2024-02-03T02:15:29+00:00

WHY do MEN OWE WOMEN A LIFETIME OF COMMITMENT CAUSE WE FUCKED THEM ONCE. like women who love to talk about entitlement, why the fuck do we owe it to them.

Maybe if women cooked and added value outside of sex, they could keep our commitment.

TheFutureIsNow1990 · 2024-02-02T23:40:13+00:00

No guy should be committed to a girl before they've had sex. Period.

That's like being committed to a car before going to the dealership. Women want to feel they're dating up. Every study shows this, and there's nothing controversial the idea at all. There is *nothing* less panty-dropping than a guy who tells a girl that he has no other options and "she's the only one". That's literally the definition of her dating down. Boring!

It's her competitive sexual anxiety (that he might slip away, that he might realize another woman might be better than her, etc.) that is *precisely* what makes a relationship interesting! Robbing a girl of her competitive sexual anxiety by trying to appease her and make her feel there's no risk literally sucks all the excitement and passion and romance out of the fucking atmosphere. If you like her, you owe it to her to keep it mysterious and commit *slow* like you're on a 10 year schedule. Read some chick lit and understand what actually gets her juices flowing.

Boring is not the way.

Safinated · 2024-02-02T23:18:35+00:00

But that would be lying and thus inaccurate

AutoModerator · 2024-02-02T23:09:27+00:00

Attention!

You can post off topic/jokes/puns as a comment to this Automoderator message.
For "Debate" and "Question for X" Threads: Parent comments that aren't from the target group will be removed, along with their child replies.
If you want to agree with OP instead of challenging their view or if the question is not targeted at you, post it as an answer to this comment.
OP you can choose your own flair according to these guidelines., just press Flair under your post!

Thanks for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion!

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

Something-bothersome · 2024-02-03T00:09:46+00:00

She was raised in a society, she absolutely knew she shouldn’t j7mp to bed with strangers, she absolutely knew that virginity is valuable

No one cares.

Ok, if I’m to be more accurate, a small section of the population still care. But to a huge degree, unless it falls outside the current social norm, no one cares. And the current social norm is pretty damn broad.

Even the general folk that were raised under more conservative values don’t care that much any more. Grandma is attending baby showers for unmarried folk and gay weddings. Her grand daughter actually marrying is considered conservative now, no one even thinks to ask or worry about virginity. It’s just fallen so far down the list of importance it’s pretty much irrelevant.

Well irrelevant to the majority, for a minority it is still relevant.

Triglycerine · 2024-02-03T06:42:59+00:00

That's a pretty decent writeup and the fact people somehow tried to drag it into proximity with pedophilic incest is probably as strong an endorsement as it's going to get. It's when you know that your truth is strong enough it needs to be destroyed by the most severe means possible.

I'm not sure I entirely agree with your theories but I definitely think they have merit.

James_Cruse · 2024-02-03T07:09:19+00:00

I admit this is an interesting way to view women wanting men to commit quickly and men wanting women to have sex quickly.

This sounds great in theory, but the issues arise down the line with women: on an unconscious level (that she’s unaware, doesn’t acknowledge or even understand) she will respect you less than her the man that slept with her faster and will respect you more when you take your time before getting into a relationship with her.

Men who have alot to offer women do the above - they sleep with women quickly & commit slowly.

Women who make the man she wants to marry or commit to wait for sex aren’t really considered women that have alot to offer. It’s her being indecisive, fearful, or being strategic (in bad faith) to barter sex for something.

It’s my experience that the women that want you to wait either are:

doing so because the sex they want you to wait for is so disappointing (seriously, this has happened many times or just very unattractive without clothes on or both) or
They aren’t as attracted to YOU or respect you as much as other men before you.

Before you ask how could I know this as a man - I’ve met and spoken to several men who dated girls after me, girls I was seeing casually or dating but never committed to (for one reason or another) were not guy she respected or liked as much as me and they made that poor guy wait.

The girls that were dead set on waiting and were absolute fascists about it did so because they wanted me to invest alot before sex so that once I had the extremely terrible/disappointing sex - that I’d invested so much that I’d be less likely to leave. They were hoping for the ‘Sunken Cost’ Fallacy to happen to me.

So, no, what you said sounds nice but it doesn’t translate to the real world.

Title	Switching around "Commitment" for "Sex" may allow more empathy between the sexes?
Author	Chaskar
Upvotes	64
Comments	214
Date	February 2, 2024 11:09 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1ahh5ie/switching_around_commitment_for_sex_may_allow/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/switching-around-commitment-for-sex-may-allow-more.1244445 https://theredarchive.com/post/1244445

Comments