What would addressing structural inequality in dating actually look like?

Something-bothersome · 2024-04-27T10:56:20+00:00

Specialised socialisation programs need to be rigorously maintained within the school system. For children that are struggling, targeted interventions need to be provided and followed up.
Health, fitness and dietary policies and education needs vastly ramping up at a community level. Also maintained at schools. Resources and facilities provided.
Quality standards of food production need to be raised along health guidelines.
Social community events and third spaces vastly increased.
mental health funding and promotion increased across the life span.
community engagement norms and values promoted and built into education systems and work place programs. Everyone should be expected to contribute and engage positively with the community.

CatholicChanner · 2024-04-27T11:07:53+00:00

I feel like this is more of a historical anomaly transition period where certain people just get screwed until a new, more equitable normal is established. I kind of see it in the Catholic dating scene where a lot of the older Catholic women still expect the man to be able to provide her dream trad SAHM lifestyle like her father was able to provide her mother, but the younger ones who grew up with higher housing prices and more terrible wages are much more practical at least in the US. I don't think women's liberation is inherently bad but to a lot of men it feels like their expectations of men have not caught up, e.g. they still want men making more or at least the same despite women outperforming men in colleges and even wages when such was based on a period of time where that was achievable for most men and sticking to other traditional male roles when such is now much harder to do than it ever was in the past.

serpensmercurialis · 2024-04-27T19:41:53+00:00

I see a lot of posts from men in this sub and others around Reddit that point out that women have unfair privileges when it comes to the number of partners available to them and that the cards are stacked against men in the dating market.

I personally, have not been on a date since 2012 because I’m married but for some reason this interests me. I do sympathize with the lonely men. I can imagine that with all the dating apps and the social media, it must be tough. But, is there anything on a policy level that can actually be done to help them?

This is the part that doesn't make sense to me about the arguments you guys make. Women are not competing with men for dates, therefore they do not have an "unfair advantage" at securing one unless we are talking about LGBT stuff. The only inequality is intrasexual inequality.

To get some ideas of how we could solve the problem, let's take a look at a model of reproductive inequality:

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There are two factors that lead to reproductive skew and polygyny among men: low rival resource importance, and high rival resource inequality.

What does this mean in non-econ terms?

When things like time, land, money, and other resources that are usually needed to reproduce and raise children are not important enough in order to accomplish those goals, there is reproductive inequality.
When there is a high enough level of inequality in the amount of resources that different men hold, there is reproductive inequality.

Socially-imposed monogamy exists as the norm because it is a way to keep the peace despite the fact that some men do not have enough resources to reproduce while other men are hoarding them. Ultimately, this harms everyone including children because it creates the systems of poverty and inequality that exist beyond dating. To actually solve the problem, you have to:

Lower the inequality of rival resources between men. Most men should have similar amounts of resources, and their resources should be adequate for one family to be comfortable.
Require high enough investment of those rival resources for reproduction and child-rearing, so that there are not ample leftover resources or opportunity to start another family.

That is the sustainable and socially responsible way to solve reproductive inequality among men.

Edit: to give those numbers some context, according to the United States Census Bureau the 2022 Gini coefficient for income in the United States (equivalence-adjusted, which is the lower number) is 0.467.

Imaginary-Being8395 · 2024-04-27T12:42:17+00:00

That's an interesting post and a good question, unfortunately I don't have an answer of the same caliber. In other areas we fight to remove unfair expectations, for example, we fought, so a woman could be contracted despite being a woman (which was considered a bad thing by the employers at that time). However, this is not the problem in dating. It's way closer to unemployment than anything else.

What I see people suggesting for unemployment is having those unemployed match the expectations of their contractors, by giving them workshops and lectures. In the case of dating, this can be done in some ways. Like measures to encourage socialization at school by those who have difficulties. However, this gets hard if we want to go beyond, first, there are lots of discussion on what even gets men dates in the first place, we can assume looks and social skills are good starting axioms. I can't really see how the government would implement those beyond what I said about schools tho.

Returning to our unemployment analogy, some people can say the system is bad, and we need a "communist" revolution or a UBI, in the case of dating those things would be considered wacky at best. It still intrigues me on why this is the case.

superlurkage · 2024-04-27T14:17:45+00:00

Either Iceland or Saudi Arabia

And neither of them are cheap

The other option that works is poverty

newzalrt883 · 2024-04-27T23:24:35+00:00

Society plays a role in deciding what is attractive. Society has been shitting on average guys for the past 30 years. We could start by at least changing that.

LoopyPro · 2024-04-27T10:53:23+00:00

Before internet, social media, and dating apps existed, the dating pool was relatively small. Now, due to the massive size of the dating pool, people are spoiled for choice and will always wonder if they could've gotten with someone better. Religion and social control also used to be more prevalent. The dating market was effectively regulated by pressuring people into monogamy, while polygyny (few men getting most of the women) was discouraged.

The genie is pretty much out of the bottle. It's unrealistic to reduce the size of the dating pool in a globalized society. It's unethical to undermine individual freedoms by forcing religion or philosophy down people's throats. People having different personalities and making different choices will always lead to inequalities. There won't a be a one-size-fits-all solution that doesn't undermine the individual. People can only observe reality, compare notes with peers, and create their own plan.

Nellylocheadbean · 2024-04-27T10:59:19+00:00

Nothing can be done without limiting women’s sexuality. They can ban social media/dating apps but that’s not enough to make progress because women don’t find enough men attractive in the 1st place.

MongoBobalossus · 2024-04-27T11:44:20+00:00

You would have to first demonstrate that this “structural inequality” actually exists before you attempt to fix it.

Baezil · 2024-04-27T15:59:59+00:00

I think trying to give both sexes the same positives and negatives in the dating world is a pointless endeavor. It won't happen short of serious genetic modification.

I do think it would be worthwhile to get people to realize that the positives and negatives balance out between sexes overall.

Aafan_Barbarro · 2024-04-27T10:56:23+00:00

There isn't anything that can be done. As women need men less, more and more men will be irrelevant to them for relationships. It's perfectly natural.

wolfloveyes · 2024-04-27T10:59:55+00:00

People tend to be narcissistic, selfish, and unintelligent, so only experience will teach them. Even though I am of mixed race, I never had a problem dating in the US. When I went to Western Europe, I still found decent women who dated me. Then I went to Eastern Europe, where I still found a few girls who were willing to date me, but I met terrible Slavic women who compared my looks to gypsies, sending me screenshots of how I am not good-looking in their culture. They would just circulate your photos and send you their friends' responses on your looks. The funny thing was all of them were super broke, had no ambition, and lived paycheck to paycheck. I could understand that I am not good-looking, but what was the point in hammering that into my head? They wanted to break my ego but they didn't realize my ego doesn't come from my looks. I just display the confidence because I believe I am competent enough to get everything done. So I left Europe and went back to the US. In my opinion, the US is the least racist country (as a person of color).

Most of Europe is beautiful, with beautiful people as well, but people actually compare non-white people to monkeys and such. Similarly, Southeast Asia is brutal if you have darker skin (and I am not that dark) What I found is that even when a woman does not find me attractive, they still date me for whatever reasons but later become resentful, as if they are forcing themselves to find me attractive.

I usually date intelligent women now, who are able to put their instincts into words. So I read their conflicts and understand from them what exactly I lack. So I don't want anyone who is forced to like someone. Only experience can teach you. I was similar in high school; I used to date only the hottest girl and would absolutely mock the other girls and laugh them off. Then I met crazy girls who did the same to me, and now I am humbled. The reason I haven't lost all confidence yet is that I am good at a handful of things and make decent money.

In high school, getting hottest girl more of a competitive thing (competition with other guys) , not because I only found her attractive. After high school I started finding majority of women interesting.

These days I can acknowledge their looks but I ain't fooling myself anymore, most of the girls don't find darker/non white guys (that's my experience, even Asians/latinas/white).

While I am rich/status and all and have lots of hobbies, I have never received a date for "looks", so never experienced real desire from women.

Women just date anyone and everyone even if they feel zero sexual desires for him. Hope they never do that to me again.

Purple_Kangaroo8549 · 2024-04-27T19:50:22+00:00

Like all things in western society the destruction of the social policing that kept women in line destroyed society. Unless it comes back nothing will change.

AhoBaka1990 · 2024-04-27T11:04:13+00:00

Ban dating apps and photo-based social media, straight up.

SmallSituation6432 · 2024-04-27T14:52:16+00:00

It genuinely scares me that at no point do you suggest any of those theoretical policies are unethical. Just that they are not in line with liberal democracy, and even that you seem to have no ethical opinion about.

This is why women are scared of "just asking questions" bullshit like this.

YveisGrey · 2024-04-27T15:14:13+00:00

Something feasible that could work is better wealth distribution.

The bigger the wealth gap the harder it is for men to compete for mates. This is actually why you see so many women desiring 6 figure salaries. The wealth distribution now is less equitable than it was 50 years ago. It really does cost a lot more to live the “American Dream” these days, being a homeowner, having 2.5 kids, a dog, 2 family cars etc…

Seriously look at the reports of cost of living. These days the average price of homes in comparison to individual salaries is much higher than it was 50 years ago. Also young potential homeowners have a lot more debt usually from student loans and cars.

The wealth gap in the US has increased the middle class is being squeezed. Investing in a solid middle class is key to keeping the country stable (notice all the political turmoil in the last decade?) and also helps men and women to get married. Most women actually would prefer to “settle” with a secure man vs sharing “alphas”. However when your average dude can’t support a family, can’t even buy a home, there’s more pressure for women to go for the top dogs or to do it on their own.

I’m not saying that no woman would do this if wealth distribution was more even but the bigger the gap the more it pushes women in that direction. It just doesn’t make sense to “settle” and have kids with a man who can’t provide when you have better options.

wtknight · 2024-04-27T16:15:16+00:00

It really has to be self-improvement programs for unsuccessful men. Women shouldn't be forced to do anything. Men need to become attractive for them.

cast-away-ramadi06 · 2024-04-27T19:19:11+00:00

Dismantling female privileges would go a long way. We especially need to hold women accountable for clinging on to the parts of the patriarchy that benefits them while they simultaneously reject the parts that don't. I get it, it's hard letting go of privilege, but with the right policy changes and dose of good old fashion social shaming, I think it can be done.

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noach_diluge · 2024-04-27T22:01:44+00:00

Dude, that is legit like communist shit like wtf - LOL! This is the point of life so read like theories on economics and stuff

odd_cloud · 2024-04-28T00:57:36+00:00

Well, discussing the issue would be a nice start. Currently, there are little resources about dating for men. The mainstream media are concentrated on dating from a womans point of view.

I think, it would be particulary nice if women learned something about dating from the male point of view. I met quite a lot of women, who have a vague understanding of what dating is for men. Too many women I talked to imagined that men typically sleep around and then marry a woman who is extremely better than all their hook ups and flings. Can't be further from truth, can it? I think, if women udnerstand more about men, their behavior would change.

Another thought, dating coaching for men should be normalized. We pretend like initiating is easy for men, while it's obviously not. I suppose, some kind of decent pick-up courses should be something normal for guys.

Finally, we are probably good with doing nothing, paradoxically. Over time, unattractive men's genes will disappear, as well as genes of hypergamous women, so we'll end up with a new equilibrium.

ThePleasuresofSin · 2024-04-28T01:53:13+00:00

It's like you guys have never heard of arranged marriages

username_6916 · 2024-04-28T07:09:00+00:00

Moreover, I don’t think it’s realistic to undertake some massive public service campaign that encourages women to be more sexually available to shorter, heavier, unemployed or socially awkward men. You cannot ask someone to be attracted to someone in the interests of fairness, right?

When the shoe was on the other foot, there was a lot of feminist efforts to change culture in this area with talk about 'unreasonable beauty standards'. Or talking about 'emotional labor' and how it's wrong to expect a partner to be loving and caring. How well did it work? I'm not sure. It is telling in my mind that the feminists never did extend this concern for men in terms of women's preferences. If anything we saw the opposite: "We have a right to seek out sexual fulfillment and and that's more important than anything else. We should whatever we're attracted to and you're sexist if you dare criticize that".

Or can you? Can anything be done? Are there any policies I don’t see that could be implemented to help these poor guys?

Not policy, at least not primarily policy. Culture. It's our culture that sets most of the rules around dating and courtship. There's really only so much government could do in this area even if they were a totalitarian dictatorship because of that pesky information problem and the fact that intimate relationships are even more complicated than economic ones. And that's before we get into the problems around consent in this area if there were such an attempt at romantic central planning by the government. (Once again, there is no ethical consumption under Socialism)

There are some policies that impact this though. Removing penalties for marriage in government aid programs is a big one for the lower economic classes. Folks on welfare, medicaid and disability are often afraid to marry because of how it will impact their eligibility for these programs. I'd go so far as to argue that this is the reason for increases in out-of-wedlock births despite the advent of and acceptance of all kinds of contraceptive technologies.

We could pull back on some of them anti-sexual harassment policies if only a little bit. Sexual harassment policies shouldn't prohibit employees of the same company from dating unless there is an actual supervisory power that one employee has over another, and those policies should actively say that. This also matter in the domain of sex-ed and 'teaching men not to rape' and so on. If the anti-harassment lecture convinces even a small percentage of men that daring to have some romantic desire makes them bad people, then it really should be re-thought and dialed back even if it leads to more unintentional unwanted interactions.

There's the broader issue of male educational attainment. Boys are under-preforming in school because school is set up to favor girls and teachers give girls better grades. I've got some policy proposals in this area (namely, fight the teacher's unions to ensure more ability to fire bad teachers and some notion of school choice) sure what would specifically address this issue though.

Finally, there's the narrow but meaningful issue of the feminist erosion of due process for men accused of sexual misconduct on campus. This has contributed to a lot of men's (justifiable) fears of dating and it's something that could and should be addressed in policy. Sadly, it looks like policy is moving the other way of late.

And... Within the bounds of a free society that's really all that we should do. I could quibble about no-fault divorce and how it's possible for some party to get rewarded of infidelity and the injustice of cases like that, but that's further away from the issues with earlier stages of dating and courtship. Similarly, I could about father's rights and the bias in family court, but again that would be beyond scope here. One could propose a 'paper abortion' and abdication of father's rights in exchange for freedom from child support as a way to increase the cost of casual sex for women and thus encourage monogamy, but I find the other tradeoffs with such a policy (such as increased rate of actual abortions or leaving children with adequate provision) to not be worth it. Plus such a policy would reward irresponsible behavior from men, making a wash in pure virtue before we even consider the negative tradeoffs. We could restrict birth control, but I'd consider that to be incompatible with a free society. And even if we could unring the bell, there's no guarantee that restricting birth control would undo the cultural ill-effects of the sexual revolution so we could end up with the worst of both worlds: A cultural of casual sex but not the tools to deal with the consequences thereof.

No, most of 'systemic' issues in this space are matters of etiquette and cultural norms. Feminists have convinced a generation of young men that their romantic desires make then awful people. Rolling that back and reestablishing norms about how flirting and desire are okay so long as it's within the bounds of gentlemanly behavior is going to take some concerted effort. Because it's a cultural question, it's something that has to be addressed through civil society, one small institution's norms at a time. It can't be fixed through government policy from the top, it has to come from the bottom up.

Remote_Panic_3271 · 2024-04-28T16:01:07+00:00

Absolutely nothing. Women want to fuck tall and hot men and want ugly men to leave them alone and not interfere

Sparkling_gourami · 2024-04-27T15:30:28+00:00

This might be an unpopular answer but men can improve. If women have certain standards most men don’t meet, then meet the standards. Being in shape, making a decent income, being interesting, and having emotional stability are all things you can work at and benefit YOU first. Women only benefit from their standards if you date her.

Also, I really don’t think women’s standards are as high as many people make them out to be. The bar isn’t as low as some women make it out to be, it still takes work to meet it. But I don’t think their asks are unreasonable. Women don’t need men anymore in the way they used to. They’re free to make their own choices so men have to accept that and work within that framework.

There is a lot of structural reasons that dating is harder these days, but men have more capacity to change things more than a lot of people on this sub tend to believe.

ConstanceVigilante · 2024-04-27T17:03:35+00:00

Societally normalize multiple men “sharing” a woman.

I have a friend like this. She has 3 men dating her. They all know about the others and accept it. All three of them are below average looking, but they can easily find a partner who is willing to be with them this way.

This fixes all the problems — men will have a much easier time finding partners, and less women will be taken. It might even make women “work harder” to get men to like them and the complaints of female entitlement coming from some men would reduce.

full_brick_package · 2024-04-27T14:56:32+00:00

Decriminalize sex work fully. Teach people to form non traditional group/communal living arrangements to ease the economic burden and responsibilities. Get rid of the over romantic delusions about love originating likely from Shakespeare and Trubador culture in the Middle Ages/Renaissance. We confuse several things now, infatuation from temporary hormone spikes and bonding with "True Love". Because infatuation is temporary a lot of people "Fall out of love" when the hormonal aspect of the delusion ends for them.

Point is, make paying for it available because it's one of the oldest, longest standing terms many women have been willing to consent to sex for. Societal shame keeps a lot of women in line though so until we stop equating a woman's value with her sex partner count or exploits we're going to make this less desirable. Yet entire cultures raise women to marry and breed with wealthy suitors, the only difference is the number of clients.

NotARussianBot1984 · 2024-04-27T18:35:22+00:00

Ending all social programs and returning the taxes to the tax payers.

That's it. 100% that's all that is needed. No medicare, no social security, no food stamps, no section 8 housing, no affirmative action.

You are on your own. That alone will fix the dating market. Oh and defending the border.

INB4 "Women pay taxes too". Yes and they can have their taxes back, congrats. Equality.

k0unitX · 2024-04-27T11:52:49+00:00

It's too far gone to be salvageable.

OkStory2525 · 2024-04-28T03:32:22+00:00

It's not a "structural inequality" to not be attracted to your disgusting gender. How about you go fuck these disgusting men?

BattleFrontire · 2024-04-27T13:38:06+00:00

I agree that while it's a problem, there's no real solution that's both ethical and directly addresses the problem. Some things which I think could at least somewhat help are:

Try to cut down on sexism on both sides. It's hard for the dating market to function when a lot of women are afraid of men, and a lot of men are either self-conscious about that or are part of the problem.
Right now, most women put a ton of effort into their appearance while most men only do the bare minimum. This leads to some women seeing most men as beneath them, and some men feeling like they're not good enough to date. It'd be nice to encourage men to take more care of their appearance while reducing the pressures on most women to go above and beyond.
Destigmatize trans women more so more AMABs can safely transition. If the gender ratio was more like 55% women and 45% men, then things might be a bit more balanced since 50/50 doesn't seem to be working.

Independent-Mail-227 · 2024-04-27T10:56:26+00:00

Just remove the one sided law advantage women have and they start being forced into making good decisions and gambling their life on Chad baby become a risk choice as it should be.

As it stand today AA/bb is basically sanctioned by the current law.

Necessary-Ask-3619 · 2024-04-27T14:32:01+00:00

There is no addressing.

Before Internet, people didn't have as many choices. They paired up with whoever they could from the people they know. Plus there was lot of slutshaming and monogamy.

Now they have far too many choices in the palm of their hand, no slutshaming and monogamy exists only in a technicality. True Monogamy only exists in marriage and that's why almost all men end up getting married even if they never were given a second look for dating.

You cannot go against your biological imperative. Women will be attracted to the top men and if they can, why will they choose to date betas? They will even share those men while dating. Wwhen it's time to settle down, they will find the best man they can and settle.

Only way to "address" this dating inequality is to ban any and all kinds of online dating i.e restrict their choices. Which is not happening. Like you said, it will violate so many principles of liberal democracy. You cannot force women to be attracted to men they aren't attracted to. Genuine desire cannot be negotiated.

Choice-Substance-183 · 2024-04-27T16:07:18+00:00

What the heck is "structural inequality in dating"?

Ps - married people usually go on dates with their spouse. Try it sometime. Dates are quite fun.

Are there any policies I don’t see that could be implemented to help these poor guys?

No policies. Make friends, build in person community. Lean on other men instead of waiting for a woman to "solve" their problems.

YearnsToDestroySun · 2024-04-27T12:32:17+00:00

Make sex only legal between man and wife lol.

That way it mitigates the pareto distribution of majority of women chasing the minority of men due to 1 to 1 pairings.

That's all I can think of.

bifewova234 · 2024-04-27T15:58:07+00:00

Id thought about free sex for STD free people at government run brothels.

Tasty-Document2808 · 2024-04-27T21:14:43+00:00

There is no structural inequality in dating.

Dating is the law of the jungle. It is unfair at the genetic level, for reasons people cannot logically justify. You make rational impositions with your prefrontal cortex. You decide who to fuck with your limbic system.

This reads like "the government has to give me a girlfriend". It's ridiculous, and acting like anything has to be done about it is cope.

Adapt or die alone. Those are your choices. Dating will continue to change as rapidly as everything else in society.

Lenovo_Driver · 2024-04-27T13:35:45+00:00

It looks like addressing the structural inequality in income and wages

optimuscrymez · 2024-04-27T16:26:23+00:00

God people are so braindead about this and this :gee shucks what can be done::

Just shows how idk...dumb? People are.

Here's a start, champ: show different types of men in the protagonist classic hero role.

Off and running.

People are stupid. They imitate what they see.

Myagooshki2 · 2024-04-27T13:40:12+00:00

They already exist, albeit in primitive forms. They're the strict abortion laws that prohibit abortion only in cases where the mother is at risk of dying. It makes women less hypergamous because they don't want to get raped.

Title	What would addressing structural inequality in dating actually look like?
Author	Schmurby
Upvotes	23
Comments	333
Date	April 27, 2024 10:26 AM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1cebcs0/what_would_addressing_structural_inequality_in/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/what-would-addressing-structural-inequality-in.1516563 https://theredarchive.com/post/1516563

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