I've come to a realization about the "nice guy syndrome"

dablac · 2012-12-03T18:22:04+00:00

Well yeah, but what you've missed is that it's not even their fault. Beta guys try to demonstrate the characteristics that they've learned are desirable while they were growing up.

Thanks society.

Edit: Keep in mind that nothing is free, everyone knows this. If you walked up to a stranger and tried to give them a $20 note, you'd be surprised by how reluctant people are to do it. If instead you go up to someone and tell them to jump in exchange for the $20, they'll almost always do it.

When nice guys do everything for free and say they don't want anything in return, it's a lie. What they're actually doing is trying to force the girl into an emotional debt so that she can't say no when he asks her to be his girlfriend or for sex. That's fucking creepy guys, but that's what you've all been doing or used to do.

lyonhart31 · 2012-12-03T18:32:49+00:00

I wish I was in your place. I've always been told that being nice and practically subservient is what gets you places with women. Now, all of a sudden, everyone's telling me I'm being too nice. Still trying to kick the habit, but it seems so foreign to me. Dablac hit the nail on the head, really.

Edit: And now half my comment karma has come from this post. I see I'm in good company. Stay strong, brothers! We will get through this!

delrealdeal · 2012-12-03T20:45:01+00:00

Read No More Mr. Nice Guy by Robert Glover. Seriously, do it.

pickup_sticks · 2012-12-03T19:37:50+00:00

I have a question that I'd like to have answer by yall:

Is it possible to be a gentleman and to also be alpha?

The boundaries are vague, but to work off OPs example, he said he would apologize and be overly compliant. Fuck that. However, would you say it's not alpha to refrain vulgarity, and to demonstrate more "oldschool gentleman" qualities?

ZombiesBoomToo · 2012-12-03T20:52:19+00:00

I'm a nice guy with girls, chivalrous and all that, but I'm not a fucking doormat. All you need is confidence in knowing who you are and not looking at women as a challenge. Just be you and don't be an asshat.

IWasMeButNowHesGone · 2012-12-03T21:50:31+00:00

No, "nice" boys approach it wrong because they compete, because they are desperate to "win". They want, some need, this validation because they live in fear and insecurity. "What if another hot girl never talks to me again, what if this is my only shot at not being alone?!?!?" They aren't actually nice, they're manipulative and needy. When they're rejected, they spiral into self-pity and blame the "jerks" and the woman who like them.

The most attractive men don't compete at all. They be themselves, genuinely say and do what they want to do without any expectations. If the woman likes it, great. If she doesn't, it doesn't matter because a man is already fulfilled in his life and happy with who he is/working to become.

mytuppence · 2012-12-03T19:30:26+00:00

I don't think the term beta and 'nice guy' are mutually synonymous. You can still be a nice guy, as in being chivalrous without being beta.

When looking back on my beta way of thinking, it seems that I did it to show women that I was different from the rest of the guys. I would dedicate myself to her, apologize more, be overly compliant, and disregard my personal boundaries all to prove that I wasn't one of the regular guys. So in a sense, beta males are competing for women as well, but they're approaching it all wrong.

I agree with the most part of this. If you let someone walk all over you and dictate who you are, you'll never get any respect, from anyone, ever. But I do believe, that still being nice and chivalrous and kind, and philanthropic what have you, is still welcomed.

NETZahualpilli · 2012-12-03T19:01:16+00:00

I put women on a pedestal to get laid and it always ended in bad relationships. Ive learned that it's all about balance. Alpha's are compassionate men that don't get walked all over. Your absolutely correct when you say beta's are competing for women! I don't know about it being the wrong approach. If it works it works! I would feign being asexual if I thought it would lead to an f-close. All the things you described as being beta way of thinking are things guys do to secure a woman for the long term. If you've found the one it's a great way to go about it but if your just doing it for an f-close it's the wrong way and it leads to bad relationships. Plenty of milk to be had with women who aren't trying to sell you the whole farm and don't want or expect the LTR or the beta way of thinking.

2012-12-03T21:41:15+00:00

I wish people wouldn't throw around the terms "beta" and "alpha" like they mean anything or have any scientific basis whatsoever. Other than that, well-stated, OP--over-passivity and over-compliance do wonders to sabotage female interest.

2012-12-03T22:18:12+00:00

As Mystery said: Our fathers have failed us

eagleclaw457 · 2012-12-03T20:58:05+00:00

I think it would be cool if you made a post about examples of things you used to do wrong, compared to what you do now. To me the whole alpha mind set, is very vague still. I think you being someone who has realized what being alpha is all about, could example what is about pretty clearly.

gabriot · 2012-12-03T20:09:26+00:00

[permanently deleted]

puntingbaxter · 2012-12-03T20:18:34+00:00

Congrats on the breakthrough.

Now take those aspects of what you learned, and apply it to other parts of your life.

There is a huge difference between the success of Beta's and Alpha's in the workplace.

sw1tched · 2012-12-04T01:51:35+00:00

Distinction: you can be alpha nice. the world needs more of these

tozion · 2012-12-04T04:25:31+00:00

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5B790k1vcI

choc_is_back · 2012-12-03T19:46:08+00:00

Off-topic, but: DEAR GOD I cringe so hard each time I hear those 'alpha' and 'beta' terms. Cut it out already. In real life, I love talking about picking up girls and all that surrounds it, but if somebody would use those words I'd be really put off and instantly consider them a huge loser. Luckily, nobody I know, however much they love thinking/talking about girls, would use those words, ever.

If you go 'oh really, well, they are just handy terminology like so many terms in the seduction world, what else would you call it then' I would suggest: wuss and man.

Good discussion going on for the rest, sorry for the rant, carry on.

imperfect5th · 2012-12-04T00:27:58+00:00

I think we're all just over thinking this. You want a woman? Be a man. Don't apologize for stupid shit. Be confident in every word you say and every step you take. Ignore the part of your mind that's telling you to stop acting like a fool. There's no beta moves and there's no alpha lines, there's you and her.

SiffLastrac · 2012-12-04T02:34:16+00:00

Well as a girl. I don't agree that you call those characters bad habit. I dated some duchebags before (well who didn't) and the longest last for like 3 month. An then I decide only the nice guy will act actually like a man instead of a giant duchebag baby, so I dated this sweetest guy in the world and we have been together for over a year now. And to be honest, beta males are way braver than so cal alphas. They have the guts to stay who they are. And no matter how may times they get rejected, they won't just act like a manic and be all mean to every girl they meet. But I do agree hot girl like duchebag stereotype, I don't understand why, and I decide I quit doing that for life.

cannyfraunch · 2012-12-04T04:21:09+00:00

I just decided that nice guy syndrome is just insecurity. There is nothing to attribute it to other than that, IMO. Alpha is just a state of security and confidence in yourself.

MyThrowawaySeddit · 2012-12-03T22:47:27+00:00

The key to understanding is to acknowledge "nice guy syndrome" is a misnomer. You think you're being too nice, and that's what all your friends and all your rejecters say, and all of you are wrong.

What's really happening is that you're subjugating your own needs to accommodate others. That is absolutely not the same thing as being too nice. Fawning over a woman who doesn't want you is not being "nice". Being compliant is not being nice. Proving yourself to other people is not being nice. We really need to stop calling it that.

Being incredibly nice has gotten me laid plenty of times.

TxBeast956 · 2012-12-03T22:56:42+00:00

My parents taught me to respect women......GODDAMNIT MOM & DAD!!!

HERE_HAVE_SOME_AIDS · 2012-12-03T22:04:47+00:00

"I would dedicate myself to her, apologize more, be overly compliant, and disregard my personal boundaries all to prove that I wasn't one of the regular guys."

Very very well said OP. This is genuinely what most men think women want; but it manifests in exactly the ways women do not want.

MadDogTannen · 2012-12-03T23:00:22+00:00

So in a sense, beta males are competing for women as well, but they're approaching it all wrong.

This is the key. Nice guys think they're above the game playing, but they're playing an even worse game, one where they're trying to buy interest from a woman out of their league with favors or gifts. It seems like it should work - what girl doesn't want to be treated like a princess - but in reality it's off-putting for the girl because she feels like you're gonna think she owes you something.

Adamtess · 2012-12-04T00:14:42+00:00

the problem is, that "nice guy" persona becomes something men develop from movies, tv, and shockingly their fathers. When we get old enough, and go from boys to men, the first thing our fathers should bestow upon us is the importance of personal confidence.

LollipopVodka · 2012-12-04T01:23:10+00:00

I understand that a lot of the guys in here just want to get laid, and so, they pull out all the stops to get what they want. A guy can be a good/nice guy, and still communicate what he wants and needs. I find that a whole lot of men are NOT nice, as is demonstrated in this forum...Heck, you guys are changing your personality just to hopefully maybe get laid (this does not apply to all the people in this forum)

The thing about truly nice guys is that they don't need to "finish," because they are already there. They already have the level of compassion needed to actually survive in the modern world in the long term. Trust, and intimacy take longer to develop, yeah, but the benefits are pretty good, when you think about it. Younger guys get away with this, certainly, but I do foresee the future in which they are out looking in a few years, and now people have grown wiser, the same women they manipulated in the past are now more experienced, and they know that there is out there that is far better than a man who thinks that apologizing for their mistakes is BAD.

If a guy is not just faking being a decent person, but actually is... He will have no problem in finding love or sex. The men who are fake nice, with the ultimate intention of getting laid.. Well, they are actually very similar to the users of some of these "seduction" techniques: They are coming off as something that they think will be attractive, and hoping to benefit from it. So as you worked to prove you were not a "regular" guy, you did, by acting like something else in order to get what you wanted..

I'm definitely not saying that women don't do this. Sure, I've seen it happen..But the guys who are clearly faking being a decent human being are somewhat scarier than the guys who have no actual ability to emphasize with others. It's all really misogynistic and sociopathic, so often, people choose the less of the two evils, and go with the "alpha" guy they think they can change, instead of the fake nice guy who will probably change into a jerk (like the aforementioned "alpha" guy) or end up killing them in their sleep.

czlumenarcus84 · 2012-12-04T03:23:10+00:00

Good wing-men should identify and help you though. If a guy can get a girl, I immediately go into support mode and make sure that guy looks like an alpha or is respected. There are a lot of things friends can do to pitch in. Working with others increases chances of success.

abrohamlincoln9 · 2012-12-04T04:24:47+00:00

Thanks for all the help and upvotes. I wasn't expecting this to get so popular, so I guess I'll add some additional info.

My entire adolescent and adult life has been rife with severe depression, anxiety, and lack of friendship. My parents divorced when I was 13-14, leading me into a deep depression when I needed to socialize, have fun, and talk to girls. I have been on anti-depressants and anti-anxiety meds on and off for over 10 years. It greatly affected my sex drive and only slightly helped with my social skills. It wasn't till a few years ago I was diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome. So that helped explain some things.

Suffice to say, my being a "doormat" exceeded into friendships, work relationships, and family relationships. I was manipulated constantly and taken advantage of. I had a severe fear of having arguments and getting my point across because of how terrible my parents' arguments were. I told myself I would never fight with anyone. I didn't see the logic in it.

So to me, being a nice guy is a burden, it's a big flaw of mine originating in my deep depression of my teenage years. So I see why some say being a "nice" guy is good and worthy of love, but to me it's just something I can't improve upon. I get a bad, unnatural feeling whenever I agree when I shouldn't, do nice things that are out of my comfort zone.

So what I have done most recently is become more playful and confident. I don't care if I get rejected, I stick up for my thoughts and beliefs, I steer conversations away from sad and unhappy places, and I escalate physically. In fact, I just lost my virginity last week to a girl I was dating for two months. We ended it for lack of chemistry, but it was still fun and enjoyable. I had many urges to try to keep it going again, but I took it in stride and hope to remain friends.

TL;DR- being a "nice" guy has been a major hindrance in all aspects of my life, not just romantically.

rebuildingMyself · 2012-12-04T09:48:29+00:00

I'm a recovering "Nice Guy" beta. It got so bad that my ex (before balling up and dumping her) yelled at me because she says I didn't push back or make decisions. I just wanted her to be happy, but she was miserable.

Readnig up on r/seduction and No More Mr. Nice Guy lead to the eventual breakup. Why? Even though she was pissy about me being so complacent, she actually got used to ti and just took charge. She was so used to running me over that for me to rock that boat pissed her off. She was the dominant one in the relationship despite being a shy and passive girl when we first started dating. She WANTED to be the submissive (culture most likely) and when she coudln't get it, she took over and just got used to it for the relationship's sake.

holformr · 2012-12-04T12:08:35+00:00

If you meet the right girl none of this bollocks matters anyway

fapfree03 · 2012-12-04T03:24:30+00:00

Nice guys don't finish last. Nice guys win in the long run. There's a difference between being a nice guy and a suck up/wimp though.

MulhollandDrive · 2012-12-03T20:02:41+00:00

What did you do to break out of those bad habits?

2012-12-03T23:46:28+00:00

I wouldn't worry so much about being alpha. Focus more on being who you want to be. Someone who you think is amazing. That is what will make you a true alpha.

The problem with Betas is a simple one. Their problem is that they tend to be subservient which means they will try to please the women they are trying to court. Many women get a lot of this sort of attention. It is just not attractive to lots of women because its often the case that they will want to be the subservient ones. It works a lot better when their partner isn't to easy to please. Hence why Alphas are a lot more attractive. It allows them to play the role that they want to play.

Please take into consideration that the main difference between Betas and Alphas that I talk about is confidence. To do what you need to think that you are worth being with in the first place. That is what will make all the difference. I am not trying to say that you need to be the bulky baboon that everyone perceives Alpha to be. He has confidence and that is what is attractive.

2012-12-04T02:26:27+00:00

I used to tell women that I was "more Venus than Mars". That got me lots female friends who poured their hearts out about the awfulness of their dating life and I was stupid enough to think being kind and caring would get me laid. I still have lots of work to do but I've already been amazed at what confidence and alpha behavior can get me now!

kyle2143 · 2012-12-04T03:33:46+00:00

You know, it's funny, I always thought that I was accidentally a "nice guy" when it came to girls. And mostly everything, but recently I noticed that I'm not nice. I don't think that I'm a complete asshole or something, I think a lot of it has to do with me being completely unobservant and because of that I come across as uncaring or uninterested in other people. I've always heard about that "fake it until you become it" sort of philosophy and I feel like I got on the wrong end of that. I would actively try to avoid noticing or acting interested in girls. And not I noticed that I do this without realizing it. If I open a door and see a cute girl or something and she smiles at me, I'll often keep on walking stone-faced and basically not respond to her. It's rather depressing, but kind of hard to change now.

YODAWGGGG · 2012-12-04T06:04:40+00:00

nothing wrong with being a genuinely nice guy. Definitely something wrong with being a pushover beta male who doesn't know how to spark interest in a woman. ( don't take this the wrong way and become the asshole who thinks he needs to be one to get girls). You need to be nice with the characteristics of being a fun, teasing, playful, and not a pushover.

Rowka · 2012-12-04T07:35:00+00:00

Yo man, it takes balance; empathy and control. A douche bag is all control, a nice guy is all empathy. YOU NEED BOTH, GO THE MIDDLE WAY! You bitches need Buddha.

angry_dave · 2012-12-04T07:53:18+00:00

Everybody thinks they're right about everything they do. That's why they do it

Crislips · 2012-12-04T07:56:19+00:00

The problem is that guys think that women are this mystical puzzle that need to be figured out. Some try the beta approach, some try others. Some solve the puzzle, some don't. But it's really as simple as this: women are people too. They have the same thoughts, same feelings, same fears, and same desires that everyone in the world experiences. Obviously, there are some very different traits, but those are usually cultural. If you can appeal to the human side of anyone, you'll have won them over. Just treat them like someone you aren't trying to have sex with and it will work wonders for having sex with them.

lilhurt38 · 2012-12-04T10:49:28+00:00

Nice guys work for a girl's approval. Guys who get laid make girls work for his approval. It's a difference between taking value and giving it. Alphas hold the value, so they're the ones who give it out. Betas see the woman as having value, so they're looking to take it.

Bruxd · 2012-12-04T12:32:10+00:00

Absolutely. As males, we all have the interest in women, and making them our mates. So in the end, the motivation is all the same. No matter what type of guy you are. So when you let go of the "nice guy" label, know that really you're not changing anything about your morals, or sacrificing something.

BeyondTomorrow · 2012-12-03T23:17:45+00:00

OP seriously read this...

A pushover with lack of self respect and ego problems is a "nice" person? An emotionally weak person who allows people to walk over them then utilizes it to manipulate people through guilt is a "nice" person? That's not nice at all. Not to yourself or others. This label seems more like a protective shield than genuine. Not to mention, it falsely represents the real nice people. The ones who leave people better than they found them.

Seriously does anyone do anything anymore because it is the right thing to do?

razqel · 2012-12-04T03:25:57+00:00

Someone please explain to me why the hell this no content post is upvoted.

It's neither novel nor insightful. Not trying to be mean, but really wished something upvoted this high had a little more substance to it.

Title	I've come to a realization about the "nice guy syndrome"
Author	abrohamlincoln9
Upvotes	310
Comments	206
Date	December 3, 2012 5:35 PM UTC (13 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/seduction
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/seduction/comments/147jeb/ive_come_to_a_realization_about_the_nice_guy/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/seduction/ive-come-to-a-realization-about-the-nice-guy.1343685 https://theredarchive.com/post/1343685

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