Nonverbal consent

lolthankstinder · 2023-06-17T16:59:59+00:00

I feel like we see/hear a lot of the most extreme, anti-male propaganda cases from radical misandrists, and laws about consent were updated to placate them. Based on my experience, most women are perfectly fine with nonverbal consent because they are confident and comfortable that they can say something at any point and things will stop.

AdOpen432 · 2023-06-17T16:08:47+00:00

I'm mute so idfk sign yes

his_purple_majesty · 2023-06-17T21:31:21+00:00

Why do you think that it is a preference for many women to communicate with body language rather than words?

Because asking for consent reminds them of reddit dorks and that's the last thing anyone wants to think about before having sex.

Extreme-Nuance · 2023-06-17T18:25:29+00:00

I think it would ruin the mood if someone asked each step of the way. I understand that this is taught. I understand why. I think men are in a tough position here - if I were male and casually dating, I would want to do this constant questioning just to cya.

But to me (as a woman) it would sound to me like the man wasn't confident, and wasn't sure of his appeal or wasn't that excited about me. Or that he thought I was too fragile to use my words. That's why I would prefer to encourage him verbally or nonverbally but not have him ask repeatedly.

As a woman, I want my man to be so overcome with desire for me that he can't think straight. I don't want him to stop every ten seconds. This works fine because I've been married to him for 15 years, but I felt that way when we were dating, too. It worked out fine; he could read my signals.

I truly don't envy men in this situation. I know what their safest option is, but it doesn't feel sexy to me. I'm glad that there are some women commenting above who find that kind of asking/talking to be really sexy, so maybe I'm just in the minority. I know I'm not alone, because I've had this conversation with female friends, but maybe we're just too old (38) and prefer different things than the younger people dating.

Lift_and_Lurk · 2023-06-17T16:46:50+00:00

Easily going, “is this ok?” Or “you good?” While escalating is a great way to let her know you want her to be comfortable and are checking to see if she wants a break/to stop/ to slow down.

ThrowRAdiscogirl · 2023-06-17T19:08:31+00:00

The only time nonverbal consen this real is when a women initiates intimacy. Don’t think that becuase I’m making eye contact and laughing at your jokes I’m down to shag. That’s just the polite thing to do.

If I want dick I’ll tell you or initiate the intimacy myself.

NationalistGoy · 2023-06-17T22:45:43+00:00

You can ask for consent but you have to be creative.

"May I introduce my appendage inside your body cavity"

Hi_Iamlexi · 2023-06-17T22:51:18+00:00

I have never had any of the women who are my friends or the women I sleep with not want verbal consent…

thisreallyisnotok · 2023-06-18T06:50:46+00:00

Ok so I’ll preface by saying that I (28M) have a double digit n count and have not actually gone past the 3rd date without having sex (obviously I don’t fuck every person I date tho). No I am not in any way hyper sexual. For the most part, I have had a lower libido than my partner in LTRs.

Unfortunately, I’ve had some bad SA experiences. Consent is important to me. Feeling safe is important to me. And I think I also I also give off an energy of being “safe.” I don’t think women are comfortable having sex with me quickly because I’m a Casanova but because I feel safe.

First kisses for me happen in either two ways. Either I put my face close to hers when having an intimate conversation and she initiates the kiss by closing the distance in those last few centimeters between our lips or I ask “can I kiss you?” No woman has responded to that question by saying “yes,” they just kiss me as a response.

Verbal consent past the first interaction is not as common for me. But I do ask if I can take certain articles of clothing off (typically pants). Part of physical escalation itself is to alleviate feeling vulnerable. I would feel incredibly anxious if someone kissed me for the first time and literally only touched my lips and nothing else. Being held and holding someone is part of feeling safe for me. This naturally progresses physical escalation for me. I once was making out with a girl who was wearing a leather jacket. But I felt like I was making out with a mannequin and not touching a human when my hand was on her back over her jacket. So I slipped my hand under her jacket so I could actually feel the warmth from her body. I definitely caught her off guard but she quickly realized I wasn’t just trying to cop a feel but rather to feel closer to her. I do a similar thing with bras as well. It just feels off to me to press my body against someone and have synthetic material as some barrier between us. Sometimes I ask if I can take it off but sometimes I don’t and I usually tell them I want them to be comfortable. And again it’s not like I just take off their bra so I can fondle their breasts right away.

And escalating further, it is often just a natural reaction to grab someone’s thigh or small of their back when making out. In my experience, playing with someone’s waist band (in the front) is a common form of non verbal consent that you want have some form of sex. The exception is sometimes I might want to grab her ass under her pants when making out, but playing with the waist band and rubbing an inner thigh is usually non verbal communication that you want to touch someone down there. Usually if I’m rubbing her inner thigh, she’ll make eye contact and then look down at her own crotch (usually biting her lip) and I usually start rubbing her crotch over her pants then. And not to be graphic but sometimes I can smell if she’s wet and I usually ask “would you like me to take these off?”

Often this can be a part where I feel uncomfortable because it seems fairly common for women to stick their hand down your pants and touch your penis without asking. And this often can happen before pants have come off. I’ve never touched a woman’s vagina without having either her take her own panties off or me asking, but I’ve been with a few girls where you’ll just be making out normally then they’ll just abruptly start trying to find your penis.

So I do feel that many women do have issues with verbal communication during sex. This is not because verbal consent gives women the ick. It’s because many women are self conscious. If a woman asks for something sexual, she may be self conscious of being too forward. If you ask her to to receive sexual pleasure from you, she may be self conscious of whether she can be present and enjoy it to the fullest. Likewise many women can’t actually enjoy sex to its fullest without some degree of dissociation (not all women are like this). Some women need to “let themselves go” and roll their eyes back into their head (either figuratively or literally) to be one with their body and to have an orgasm. Coherent verbal communication at this point is basically impossible. Personally I may not be compatible with these women because I’ve had episodes where women have gotten carried away and simply have not heard my requests to stop if I felt uncomfortable because they are so dissociated.

I think verbal consent can be a mood killer if you are simply asking for something that is already inevitable. You’re just breaking the flow of the moment. But do women find verbal consent in general to be unattractive. I don’t think so.

Kizka · 2023-06-17T16:52:40+00:00

I'm in my 30s, so maybe a lot has changed, Idk, but when I was a teen and a young adult, nonverbal consent was really not that hard to figure out for guys. I never really had an issue that a guy was not able to read the room and not know how I would react if he tried to kiss me. There were guys that fell in love with me but never tried anything because they knew I wasn't interested. I think there was only guy who really blindsided me with his interest in me, but he try to tell me via text and I shut it down immediately. As girls we were also not really afraid of shutting things down if it came to it. I was shy for a long time but even I didn't see a problem telling a guy No if it was required.

Now, when I'm going out, men my age usually behave the same, I guess because we're the same generation. They usually sense if I'm interested or not. If I'm going out with younger guys, they're usually more nervous and fumble around. If I'm interested in making out, I just ask "do you want to kiss me?" and I can see the relief in their eyes that they don't have to navigate this. It's adorable, but sexy? Mhh, not so much, I prefer dominant men. That's why in these scenarios it usually stays with just kissing.

c0pkill3r · 2023-06-17T18:09:48+00:00

Idk. But I was talking about my sexual experiences one time on the internet and this guy freaked out and was calling me evil for asking for consent, saying it was condescending and infantilizing towards my partners because I should know that they would be more than willing. It was kind of sad and flattering at the same time. Then the last time I had sex the guy asked to touch my booba and fug it was so hot cos he didn't know how bad I wanted that.

_here_ok · 2023-06-17T21:32:56+00:00

Nonconsent isn't different from verbal consent the difference is just how you make requests.

Say you want to touch someone's hand, you don't grab it. You give them time to react to your hand going near them. You can even have your hand be next to theirs. You then read their reaction because the reaction is the response.

If they pull their hand away it equals no. If they let your hand be next to theirs it doesn't equal yes but it doesn't equal no it means tolerance. At that point you can go for a touch not a grab. If they allow the touch then you can go for a grab.

The thing to note is that when doing things nonverbally you have to make sure not to break boundaries, give them time to react and take steps. Like if you care for what your partner wants you won't just undress them. You go through each step on undressing. It's giving the opportunity for no and giving the opportunity for information to be processed.

Basically treat each step of an action like a boundary that you have to check.

icebluefrost · 2023-06-17T16:06:19+00:00

Many women consider it ruining the mood if you verbally ask for consent

No? There are lots of sexy ways to ask for consent:

“I want to fuck you so bad.”

“I want to bury my head between your thighs”

“Are you ready for my cock?”

“Tell me how you want me.”

Etc.

AreOut · 2023-06-17T17:44:54+00:00

I don't know if it's American/western thing but never in my life I asked directly for sex. It would totally kill the mood.

Dimension597 · 2023-06-17T17:55:30+00:00

Avoid catching charges, use your words. Consent is sexy.

Electrical_Yam_9949 · 2023-06-17T21:15:11+00:00

Having a conversation to get explicit verbal consent at a moment when you’re trying to be passionate has a similar effect as trying to make a romantic proposal of marriage to someone while simultaneously asking her to sign a prenuptial agreement. It gives the whole thing a somewhat sordid, contractual feel, which conjures up images of lawyers and county clerks rather than hearts and flowers.

anonymous-platypus1 · 2023-06-17T22:17:56+00:00

I don’t mind being asked. Early on my boyfriend would just sort of lean in and say something like “I’d really like to kiss you”. But we are also kinky so the consent thing is huge. Especially during sex, he has a thing for making me ask for what I want or he will tell me what he’s planning on doing.

Honestly, I find it hot.

Megsann1117 · 2023-06-17T22:18:58+00:00

I don’t understand why anyone would think it’s a mood killer to ask for consent?

You don’t have to say things like “is it okay if I put my wiener in you 🥹🥹” There’s a bunch of ways to make it sexy. You can incorporate consent into dirty talk by saying things like “I can’t wait to fuck you” or flipping the script and asking something like “tell me how much you want me”

Consent does not have to be a rigid yes/no question but both parties should be obviously on board.

Hi_Iamlexi · 2023-06-17T22:51:44+00:00

If you think it will ruin the mood you clearly aren’t doing it right because it can be SO hot

januaryphilosopher · 2023-06-17T23:50:00+00:00

Most men and women find it annoying to constantly agree to something they've already agreed to. Nonverbal consent is generally preferred only after you've already made some statement that should continue to apply unless revoked.

Commercial-Formal272 · 2023-06-18T00:32:03+00:00

I believe part of the issue is a desire for plausible deniability. If you are simply using body language, then it's simply to say after the fact that you didn't consent or were coerced. Sometimes this is used for headgames, sometimes for blackmail, to bail on an embarrassing situation, or to get revenge later for something else. I know not all women would take that approach, and even fewer think they would before being in the situation, but almost everyone likes having options avalible and tools to use even if they don't plan on taking those options. We've reached a point though where men are less willing to leave those options open to abuse, and so have started covering their bases by getting constant explicitly stated consent, recording consent, or even having "contracts" signed as evidence that the encounter was above board and not something that could be held over him later. I don't think this is a great place for our society to be, as it's clear there is little trust among people in general, but we have a bloated system that has to many abusable loopholes. Until the legal system and judicial system get significant changes, I think individual relationships are going to become less personal, and involve the government more and more.

JustARichWhiteMale · 2023-06-18T04:39:47+00:00

Because the fantasy of most women is to be taken by a powerful man and he decides what happens and she just takes it. Few will admit it even in an anonymous platform like Reddit:

https://ibb.co/q1jM8Qz

YetAnotherCommenter · 2023-06-18T10:58:00+00:00

Why do you think that it is a preference for many women to communicate with body language rather than words?

They're looking for a man with sufficient social adroitness to read the body language.

Zombombaby · 2023-06-18T13:14:48+00:00

As a feminist: if you don't have clear, undeniable consent and full participation from your partner then ask. This isn't rocket science.

I_DRINK_ANARCHY · 2023-06-18T21:00:35+00:00

I've been asked if a guy could kiss me a few times, and I will say I liked it. It was an unexpected question every time, and there was something sweet about it. Not to mention, having the chance to verbalize "Thank you, but no" as opposed to having someone go in for an unwanted kiss (which I've also experienced) was good. But I said "Yes" more often than no.

A lot sex I've had started with conversations about having it. I mean, they were pretty informal/low stakes, "So you wanna....?" I don't need a guy asking for permission for every move, but I've never experienced that in my entire life, either. And generally speaking, if we've kissed/made out before and we had a great time, I consider that permission granted for MOST future action. But I like talking about sex in general, so from just the sheer amount of conversations we've probably had, there are a lot of common unknowns that we've already hashed out anyway.

Now, it IS a pretty amazing feeling when two people have that spark that they both instinctively feel and act on it simultaneously. It's a very giddy, overwhelming kind of joy, but it's also...rare. That's why I like talking about sex and my preferences, it helps avoid a lot of awkwardness.

Gr4nd45 · 2023-06-17T16:00:32+00:00

Because they don't want you to ask for it. They want you to take it.

DerayRevan · 2023-06-17T16:14:42+00:00

Depends on the race and how good your doing the job (Game)

So your talking to a cute girl and she first denies physical contact fine understandable since girls always do that

But if you make her develop any attraction to you then later in the date, there's over a 70% chance she won't deny any physical contact such as you wanting to kiss her verbal or non-verbal

But if you haven't made her develop any attraction to you then you loose out

Which is why the circumstances before you get there depends too

Based on my experience

epicgamergamingtime · 2023-06-17T21:06:51+00:00

Women like risk takers, confidence and being social. This is a way to test those traits for them.

Green-Quantity1032 · 2023-06-17T20:26:11+00:00

Because it signifies you and they are not autistic.

Stop looking to the internet for proper etiquette, there's a reason these people are at home

AutoModerator · 2023-06-17T15:56:55+00:00

Attention!

You can post off topic/jokes/puns as a comment to this Automoderator message.
For "CMV" and "Question for X" Threads: Parent comments that aren't from the target group will be removed, along with their child replies.
If you want to agree with OP instead of challenging their view or if the question is not targeted at you, post it as an answer to this comment.
OP you can choose your own flair according to these guidelines., just press Flair under your post!

Thanks for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion!

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.

Billsandasonom · 2023-06-18T01:43:06+00:00

Keep going if you are reading their actions as willing and stop if this changes, like they start to physically resist or say no......or is this too logical and old fashioned in today's sociopolitically charged shitstorm?

begayallday · 2023-06-18T03:53:06+00:00

I think a lot of this can be solved by having a conversation early on in the dating phase. There isn’t a one size fits all answer as to how to approach the issue of consent. It’s going to depend very heavily on the likes, dislikes, and needs of the person you’re going out with.

There is nothing wrong with asking your date how they personally feel about verbal vs non verbal consent, and finding out what they prefer and are most comfortable with. Getting it out of the way early can also help if it turns out that they are fundamentally irreconcilable on this issue.

Men have every right to give and withdraw consent too, and to have their wishes respected when it comes to how they want to express consent. So this is an important conversation to have.

PrinceArchie · 2023-06-18T06:11:45+00:00

Because it's natrual and allows you to engage in sexual activity the way it's meant to be. Non-scripted and spontaneous. Honestly the only reason why this is THIS much of an issue is because to a significant degree natrual sexual desire/courting is being mediated by the legal system and it's trickling down. When you have so many legal definitions for how a man could potentially SA a woman you remove a lot of the natrual nuance. Some might even say the bar/expectation is being set too high for men to court women because it's forcing you as a man to be a certain way, rather than simply punishing objectively damaging and reprehensible behavior.

WilliamWyattD · 2023-06-18T08:07:22+00:00

Things can improve. But given that men are human--and thus made up of all kinds of personalities--there are limits to how far women can be protected from male sexuality based purely on education men in the right behaviors.

You can indeed increase the protection beyond this point with more totalitarian, draconian and anti-human socialization. But at some point this does more harm than good.

DapperDan1929 · 2023-06-18T18:26:28+00:00

I remember back in the day, when I was a teen (I’m 50 now), the anxiety was around having the guts to touch a girl’s breast while making out. Then that was the topic of conversation with the best friend. You did the boob touch. Extra for nipple lol. I’m not saying consent is wrong - it’s totally correct and appropriate. I’m just saying how the times have changed is interesting to me.

cromulent_weasel · 2023-06-18T22:57:10+00:00

So, this JUST happened with me. I explicitly asked for consent while progressing things on our first 'serious' date, and she mentioned that it killed the mood for her. But she also readily agreed that if her answer was ever going to be no she REALLY liked that I asked.

And after getting a yes, I basically assumed that that question was already answered with a 'yes' going forwards.

RedBullfrog · 2023-06-19T11:16:10+00:00

For millions of years men and woman have used body language. Because it works. It's only in the few last years the whole verbal consent thing has become a thing. It's a phase. Soon people will go back to being horny and perfectly fine showing it to eachother.

RocinanteCoffee · 2023-06-19T21:32:36+00:00

I assume it is a pretty wide spread phenomenon that many women consider it ruining the mood if you verbally ask for consent

You probably shouldn't fuck these women and additionally, you don't know if she consents ahead of time. Better to ask and be rejected than to not ask and commit rape.

Why do you think that it is a preference for many women to communicate with body language rather than words?

It actually isn't unless you are only polling women 50+.

It's also about not being clinical or awkward when you're asking. There are plenty of sexy ways to ask for consent.

Again, you don't know what I'm thinking. If you put your hands on me without my explicit welcome you are assaulting me. And you don't know what a woman (or anyone) prefers until you ask them.

Now there are some times of physical contact where consent is easy to ask for and give non verbally. If you want to help her out of the car, hold hands with him on the walk to the cafe you can offer your hand, palm up. If he/she grasps it, takes it, that is a demonstration of consent.

Similar with hugging. If you approach but stop at a respectful distance arms open, and she closes the distance and raises her arms to complete the embrace, that's a demonstration of consent.

It gets trickier in the bedroom especially because there are so many variations of what you can do in there, what tempo, how vigorously et cetera.

"I really would like to fool around with you, tell me what you want to do."

"Do you want to stay out here or should we go into the bedroom and get under the covers?"

"Do you like to be touched [body part location]?"

Once you have consent you and your partner should check in (more often if this is all new): Is this good, do you like this, I want to keep going, you? How does this feel?

For me I have a sort of free-use open invitation with the guy I'm seeing but I established it very clearly verbally, he asked questions to make sure we understood each other, and he still checks in with me to make sure I'm okay and vice versa. I also every few weeks remind him so that he knows nothing has changed. If I were injured or very ill or something I would adjust that expectation and he does the same for me.

Because of this we established long ago, the consent is already there. But we both can retract it at any time if something begins to happen that we're not okay with or something.

You're still attentive to your partner and making sure they're okay and having a good time even if you both have established consent.

Title	Nonverbal consent
Author	oddkidmatt
Upvotes	44
Comments	172
Date	June 17, 2023 3:56 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/14bujeb/nonverbal_consent/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/nonverbal-consent.1222842 https://theredarchive.com/post/1222842

Comments