Big Facts.

[–]neonrospace 543 points544 points545 points 5 years ago (55 children) | Copy Link

[–]feverX_Xdreams1 points 5 years ago [recovered] (52 children) | Copy Link

So many angry lesbians I'm sure.

[–]neonrospace 91 points92 points93 points 5 years ago (22 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Morphie121211 points 5 years ago* [recovered] (11 children) | Copy Link

aaaaand my browser can't access it. Is it banned?

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[–]feverX_Xdreams 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago* (0 children) | Copy Link

No shit, angry lesbians is a slur. It's referred to people defending an argument that either have no stake in it or only benefit from it rather than suffer from the consequences. So in this context lesbians would be people that have no stake in the argument since their lesbians. If you dug a bit deeper you'd find I'm mostly pro choice, but I've also heard cases where the woman blackmails the man saying they'll get an abortion if they don't pay them money or do certain things for them. It's twats like you that fail to see the evil in humanity and willingly give up freedoms for comfort that are a problem.

...it's also surprisingly not rare that women have tried to get pregnant to trap a dude or get support, have lied and tricked a guy into taking care of them and their baby as well. So yes, I think its fair to say that if those practices or policies go away, in my mind feel free to abort without care

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[–]high-vulvan 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (9 children) | Copy Link

Wow. You really got me there. You're right. Women don't die; we're immortal. Men get murdered because they commit 96% of all murders WORLDWIDE and commit the overwhelming majority of violent crimes, including 98% of all acts of sexual violence. Criminals are at risk because they're criminals. If you don't want to die, don't point a gun at a rival gang/mafia member. Men are extremely impulsive and emotional, often dying in fits of suicidal rage.

Men who are suicidal tend to be violent. For example, almost every school shooting in human history. Women who are suicidal tend to be self-destructive. Who are you more likely to help? A man who wants to commit mass-murder? No. We instinctively avoid men like that. And we safeguard others from men like that. Even homeless men prefer living on the streets to being housed in a shelter filled with other men. The streets are far safer.

Men don't die more in war, they die differently. Having the right to hold a gun in a warzone is a PRIVILEGE. Women die more in wars, especially female infants. That tends to happen when all the "brave" men with guns swoop in and steal all the medicine and food. Men know the treats they get to unwrap when they have all the guns.

Women starve to death and face the worst atrocities known to humanity. Both sides always agree on one enemy: women. War is a man’s dream — a woman’s Holocaust. And more women have died due to male violence than all wars combined. The victims of the longest ongoing genocide in human history are female infants.

[–]feverX_Xdreams 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]high-vulvan 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

96% of all murders WORLDWIDE

That's according to the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime. Not your United States-only FBI.

Your own source lists "forcible rape" as having 99.1% male perpetrators so I'm not even going to bother with that one.

According to the Under-Secretary-General for Peacekeeping Operations of the United Nations:

Women and girls suffered disproportionately during and after war, as existing inequalities were magnified, and social networks broke down, making them more vulnerable to sexual violence and exploitation.

Exact numbers are unknown (since, of course, no one cares about women), but in the aftermath of wars, women's life expectancy usually takes a massive nosedive. In fact, a major indicator for "failed states" is when women's life expectancy drops below men's.

The gender wage gap is real. You scroties are just exploiting the male-decided law that restricts the federal government from collecting pay data on private companies. All anecdotal evidence made available during the entire history of humanity proves it's real.

The statute of limitations on discriminatory pay starts when the unequal pay begins, not when the women find out about it. So it's almost always an automatic male victory in court, as Lilly Ledbetter found out. Government pay data (which is publically available) only shows a negligible pay gap between the sexes because it's strictly enforced.

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[–]TheRiverInEgypt1 points 5 years ago [recovered] (134 children) | Copy Link

I’ve never understood the controversy about abortions...

Do most people not have stairs or something,

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No way man, she is incredibly manipulative and definitely would have turned the tables if she could and she probably could have. We also think she was sleeping with someone important in the police station as she was never investigated for her boyfriends murder that she obviously committed.

She once spent a year or so spreading the most vicious rumors she could invent solely so she could get enough ppl to believe her so she could kidnap my youngest daughter, call the police and leave with my kid scott free while i would be arrested for whatever. It blew up in her face as my wife is 120 lbs of muscle while she is a frail old drunk. When she tried to wrestle my wife out of the car my wife literally just laughed at her and folded her up like she was doing laundry until my daughter calmly undid her car seat and went into the house. This was the last contact we had with her. We did call the cops, she manipulated her way out of it. Said I kept my daughter locked in a room with no food water or contact to officer bees. It caused the last flurry of cps investigations who by now were exhausted with her calls. They don't even come over anymore they just call my friends and neighbors to ensure it everything is fine.

A few weeks after this she manipulated the nicest person i know to bring that daughter to her house. By now my mil was extremely paranoid tho so she poisoned all of my sil cats (she help my mil in all this and my mil blamed her for the ensuing shit show) then fled to Florida where she is hiding today probably trying to hire another assassin. She's so stupid. We think her plan was to take my daughter to Florida but apparently the daughter whose cats she poisoned came home early found the cats dead so she fled to Florida without the prize.

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100% agree. Government prohibition of drugs has been a complete disaster. If we followed a model like Portugal with full legalization and treated it as a medical problem instead of a criminal problem we’d see a reduction in usage and improved outcomes.

Same goes for abortion. If people want to reduce abortion, they should stop lying to themselves that government prohibition will lead to its elimination from society.

Expand funding to planned parenthood and other women’s health initiatives, stop the puritanical approach to sex education and prophylactic distribution (looking at you Texas GOP), and actually try to confront this issue in a meaningful, effective way that reduces abortions and improves the maternal mortality rate (which is one of the highest amongst developed countries and rising). Eventually, contraceptives (both efficacy and availability) will evolve to a point where abortion is a non-issue.

[–]BraindeadRddit 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago* (8 children) | Copy Link

[–]Puratx 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

That’s some specious reasoning.

Pregnancy is not viewed as a disease in the above scenario I described, it’s a healthcare/public health issue, in the same vein as contraceptive access and other women’s health services. Prohibiting abortion and just saying “well people shouldn’t have irresponsible sex” isn’t going to magically make abortions stop occurring, it will just drive it underground/internationally.

This is no different than religiously guided culture warriors who argue that we should only support abstinence only education. The fact that people think reality should work a certain way has no bearing on how reality works. The sooner we stop crusading on these issues as a culture war/moral battles (whether we’re talking drugs or abortion) and start treating them as public health issues, the sooner we’ll see a reduction in their utilization.

[–]BraindeadRddit0 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Puratx1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I'm sorry, but that's just insanely ignorant to state that "pregnancy is the opposite of a health issue". The sad part is that this type of attitude is exactly why the US has such shockingly poor maternal outcomes.

As I said, the idea that you can stop abortion by just banning it and telling people to stop having "irresponsible sex" (however you wish to define that) is not realistic in the slightest. If you want to talk about realistic methods of reduction (and eventual elimination), then let's revisit the discussion about expanded women's health, sex ed, contraception availability, research funding, etc.

You're advocating for prohibition based on your own feelings about the subject to make yourself feel better/superior (hence the hyperbolic "chopping up fetuses") , not to actually take any meaningful steps to reduce/eliminate abortion.

Again, the fact that you want the real world to work a certain way has no bearing on how the real world actually works. Good luck to you.

[–]BraindeadRddit0 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

The goal isn't to stop abortions completely. It's to live in a society that doesnt promote it as a safety net for when your tinder date was too lazy to walk to the gas station to get a condom. Contraceptives are fucking everywhere, that is not a good excuse for why people are too lazy to have responsible sex.

Making abortions illegal would undoing reduce the amount of abortions and make people think twice when hooking up with random people on the internet and if you think otherwise then you're just one of those special people who is likely never wrong arent you?

I know pretty decently how the world worked without abortions because we kinda did it for thousands of years. We just had values that weren't completely utilitarian and hedonistic. Your hedonistic need for sex is not more important than the life you're ending. Try not being an animal and have some self control if you dont want a kid.

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I agree with you, to an extent. You know if you're having sex you could pregnant(or get your partner pregnant). We know precautions fail sometimes, nothing is 100% guaranteed. But the reality is people who don't want kids are going to continue to have sex because it feels good and we aren't going to change that. I'd honestly rather a woman get an abortion if they don't want a baby than to have it because they feel obligated to and put the child through God knows what out of anger and resentment. I've worked with those kids, it's fucking heartbreaking. I've worked with kids stuck in the system, being bounced around foster homes, living their lives feeling like a mistake and no one wants them. It's easy to say "well you knew the risk, so deal with it" but it's not easy to fix broken children who were born to parents who didn't want them. Is a life like that better than no life at all? I don't know, honestly. It's a tough conversation and there isn't an easy answer.

I do agree with your last point 150% though.

[–]thirtyfojoe 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I've volunteered with homeless and borderline homeless families, usually single mothers and kids living in cars, or bouncing around from one boyfriend's place to another. Certainly not a situation I'd want any kid in. If it were all about the utility of life, you'd have a point, and I'd be inclined to agree. I'm about to say something that may read as condescending, but I promise I'm being earnest with you. I believe that life is intrinsically valuable, regardless of the circumstances of creation. For my own philosophy, I can't square that belief and also be okay with terminating life in the womb. Would the world be better if fewer kids were born into these awful circumstances? I think it might. I'm just not willing to put my beliefs above another person's existence.

The issue I have with 'they're gonna have sex anyway', is that there are millions of people out there not having sex. We don't provide a safe place for pedophiles because 'they're gonna do it anyway'. If we limited abortions to just pregnancies that were the result of failed contraceptives and rape, it would be an incredibly small sliver of the total abortions performed. While I'd still have ethical issues with it, it'd be much easier to understand these rare instances.

I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, though. It's an opinion I've wrestled with for a while, and I think that tons of people just discount pro-life stances as religious fanatics or misogynists, and not people who have tried to puzzle the issue out.

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[–]kbecks06[🍰] 13 points14 points15 points 5 years ago (35 children) | Copy Link

In some US states the pregnant woman would face charges if they tried an at home abortion or intentional miscarriage.

There’s all sorts of fucked up laws and stupid outcomes.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2019/06/28/she-miscarried-after-being-shot-prosecutors-are-weighing-manslaughter-case-against-her/

BIRMINGHAM — Prosecutors in Alabama said Friday that they have not decided whether a woman shot by someone else — resulting in a miscarriage — will face prosecution for the death of her fetus.

How that was even a serious choice being considered, I don’t even know. Lots of the US seems to be basically religious fundamentalists/extremists when it comes to this.

The current Supreme Court nominee has supported ads with her name of them, calling roe vs wade “barbaric”, so...

[–]KungFu124 4 points5 points6 points 5 years ago (33 children) | Copy Link

[–]kbecks06[🍰] 10 points11 points12 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

I’m not getting into the is a foetus/embryo a child debate, but folks need to not muddy the waters with language and say they’re literally the same thing. It’s removes all distinctions between an egg, embryo, foetus and a living, breathing, independent and sentient child, which is just nonsensical.

Besides, I think you missed the point of the article entirely or didn’t read it. The shooter faced no charges whatsoever.

The pregnant woman who got shot and miscarried as a result has charges, because that is what these extremist and absolutist views lead people to do. They tried to jail a woman for miscarrying after someone else literally shot her in the stomach, accusing the pregnant woman of manslaughter.

Jones was five months pregnant when she was involved in a fight with a woman who police and prosecutors said acted in self-defense when she fired a gun at Jones. A grand jury looked at actions by both women and declined to indict Ebony Jemison, who fired the shot, prosecutors said. The jurors instead returned an indictment for Jones.

This sort of dynamic isn’t even that uncommon. There are many cases where charges are brought/attempted against women who have miscarried for all sorts of stupid reasons.

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[–]high-vulvan 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Oh, it's "projection?" When men's "fantasies" are littered with words like "gagging" "choking" "tiny" "young" "destroyed" "forced" "crying" "screaming?" I wasn't surprised to find photos of naked female Holocaust victims on a site called, "CUMCEPTION." I wonder. Is it the fear in the eyes that does it? See, women don't understand things like that.

You think we don't know how you "feeeeel?" When you can buy a costume of our slave owners for Halloween? They even come with little plastic canes used to beat girls to death. But pimps are fun! Can you imagine a white man jumping around in front of a camera dressed like a plantation owner, shaking fistfuls of gold jewelry, and bragging about whipping his slaves? No. Add one man and, "OH THE HUMANITY!" Our suffering is openly mocked, while whole religions get invented to worship one man's imaginary "suffering."

A patriarchal society is not an assumption. It's reality.

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Yep. If women have the right to walk away (via abortion) men should too.

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[–]Easy_Humor_7949-3 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

why does he not have a choice to not be a parent to the child?

Because it’s her body and he has already made his choice. I’m sorry that biology doesn’t grant absolutist rights to both parties, but this is straightforward.

The woman gets to choose everything

Obviously not, she can’t become pregnant alone.

then he should also have a way out.

He has a way out. He chose take not to take it at the time.

Y’all are acting like “Knocked Up” is the norm, it is not. Contraceptives are overwhelmingly effective. 99% of these cases are between long term partners, with the most common outliers being teenagers, who are obviously not on the hook for child support as they’re children themselves.

Why are you trying to erode women’s rights for some imagined slight like “some men must be compelled to support their children”?

[–]G18Curse5 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Easy_Humor_79491 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No one is eroding women's rights. What matters is the choice that men SHOULD have but don't

This trade off is definitionally an erosion of a woman's rights. A woman has complete and total say over her body, there is no tit for tat trade off in a man's responsibility to his children in order for her to have control over her body. It is a separate decision. A woman's choice to not carry a pregnancy to term, or not, in no way impacts a man's responsibility to his children.

but if I don't want to be involved then I shouldn't be forced against my will to

Yes, you should, because it is partly your responsibility.

This isn't about the parents its about the child. If that child is born it is both of their responsibilities.

Y'all realize the mans child support is never 100% the cost of child rearing, right?

Edit:

"Not pulling out in time." gtfo with that.

I meant not having sex but that is a funny turn of phrase when you read too much into it.

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[–]Easy_Humor_79491 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

This case is legal procedural nonsense. No one is advocating or codifying forcing people to pay child support to children that aren’t theirs.

This single case is a complicated mess because this man had full custody of the child when it was born, had been paying child support since dissolution of the family, and only took a paternity test because he was trying to earn visitation rights! Why do you think this family court case became a headline?

Men have fair rights under the law, your example is a criticism of having to rectify past mistakes through the courts in general, not of men being treated unfairly.

This is in the same vein as talking about how many people’s convictions hinge on eye witness testimony, which is notoriously unreliable. It’s a miscarriage of justice not categorical oppression of men.

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[–]MrPaddocksBumpstock1 points 5 years ago [recovered] (5 children) | Copy Link

That’s true but most govt entities (at least where I live) won’t let a father relinquish financial obligation simply because he doesn’t want to be involved.

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The opportunity to walk away occurs before you decide to have unprotected sex. It's always been there. Available to anyone who wants it, and it costs nothing. You simply don't spill your cum into a active birth canal. Condoms are cheap, and your left hand is cheaper.

This whole stupid attitude of 'well.. why should I have to be responsible for my own actions' is so very much a pile of childish bullshit.

The woman can walk away? No. She has to get an abortion. It's not a rollercoaster ride, it's not fun, and in many parts of the country it's very much not remotely possible unless you can afford to go to a state where it is. She's not walking away, she's going through very real and painful consequences that often alienate her to everyone in her life because HOW FUCKING DARE SHE not completely rearrange her life because she ALONE managed to create a viable pregnancy.

The act of putting your naked dick into someone's vagina and shooting your genetic matter into in with no reguard for what ever may come, isn't nothing, you don't deserve to walk away from every consequence, you don't get to say 'I should get to walk away if I choose' you ALREADY made a choice, and it was A REALLY FUCKING BAD CHOICE.

And we're also supposed to ignore the millions of men who have had no problem walking away in the modern world. As if this has never occurred. Poor miserable men, not fully able to dodge every responsibility in every case, just most of them.

It's a luxury to get impregnated and then have to go through emotional and physical pain to be then mistreated by everyone you know who can't find an ounce of empathy for your situation? What a fucking prize!

[–][deleted]0 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Wollff-1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

A "right to walk away" leads to the age old problem: Lots of children, where only one parent has to own up to the responsibility to feed their children, while the other half simply refuses and walks away. If you implement that, then you get this result.

It is not a particularly good result for anyone.

All in all, it is such a particularly undesirable result for any society, that this "right to walk away" has AFAIK always everywhere been dismissed. You fuck and have a child, then you are responsible, unless you give it up for adoption.

What would be a possible exception? Can we imagine a case where we can have a "right to walk away" where there is no child to care for as a result of this walking away?

And look at that: Abortion is exactly that. In this special case, someone can walk away from the responsibility of raising a child, by not having a child. This is, why this is the only constellation where you can allow a "right to walk away" without inviting big problems on a social level.

[–]Andre273 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Wollff1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Someones rights have to get trampled here.

Do they?

I don't think anyone's rights are getting trampled. I think we just have a piece of sex-based inequality, which comes from the fact that physical pregnancy and its abortion are only possible on one side.

That's a sad (?) fact, which will not change, until that one Schwarzenegger movie I do not want to remember becomes reality.

what we have no removes the mans choice.

Why should the man have a choice?

For women, the answer to the question is clear: Abortion is a choice because of bodily autonomy. And only because of bodily autonomy. That's the argument.

A man also has the same bodily autonomy as a woman over his own body. Men just don't have the kind of body which would allow them to make the same choice. You can't get pregnant? Then you can't choose an abortion as an option for your pregnant body. Sad.

But that also ends the discussion: As far as rights are concerned, there is no difference. There is an inequality that emerges simply from a difference in physiology. That inequality will not go away, and it can not be resolved.

Men have to eat that.

tl;dr: I disagree. Nobody's rights are getting trampled. You just have a piece of inequality which is entirely based on physiology, which you can't get rid of.

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"Consequences for risky behavior would be real"? In what other country do you see a situation where taking away safety nets ended up leading to safer sex? With limits already being put on birth control access, sex ed, and abortion, people are going to get knocked up. Humans are horny idiots and are not going to be scared away from having sex. The unplanned pregnancies won't decrease without better education and wider access to birth control. See Colorado as an example. As part of their social safety net, they gave out free IUDs, and the unplanned pregnancy and abortion rates plummeted.

I don't know if you have ever been on governor benefits like welfare or unemployment, but I can say firsthand the social safety net here is pretty shit and definitely doesn't incentivize people to have kids to collect money. That's the "welfare queen" boogeyman popularized by Republicans in the 1980s. And a child tax credit is not a handout, it's not even very big--and not nearly enough to raise a kid on or replace child support.

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The man has no say is anything that happens, even if he was raped

This is an extreme case that should result in legal action and is not part of this discussion.

Woman wants child, man doesn't. Woman has a child, man pays for it for 18 years.

If a man willingly commits to the act of sex which is a biological function that's purpose is procreation, and a baby is conceived as a result of the act, and a baby is delivered alive as a result of the fact, it is the financial and moral responsiblity of the man to take care of the child. The monetary support that a man is forced to pay is there to allow the child to grow up in an environment where their needs are met.

Having sex and not wanting kids is the same as wanting to skydive but not to die. Only a fucking moron would think that they could sign away responsibilities of a human life just because they only thought there was a 1% chance of it being created.

Comparing a woman's right to do a medical procedure that aborts a baby to a man's legal right to nullify parental or guardian status is a false equivalency.

Delivering a baby to birth always requires the consent of the mother carrying the baby. You can only force a woman to term if you remove all agency from her and tie her down for 9 months and remove the baby through c-section. Abortion is a part of this freedom to choose. A man or woman should not be able to force a woman to carry a child unless she is willing to.

If you are a man who wishes to have a child you should seek out a woman who is willing to do so. It is a sad thing to have your baby aborted but the alternative is not something to strive for due to obvious breaches of human rights.

If you have consensual sex with a woman and the baby is delivered, then the baby has the legal right for your financial support and you should provide it. Otherwise you are essentially able to put on financial strain on the community and the woman through your own negligience. The child has a right to be taken care of until it is legally of age to be independent.

If you don't want the chance of 18 years of financial obligation then don't have consensual sex with women. If you do, you are willingly putting yourself on the line. It doesn't get any simpler.

[–]beardedheathen1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Having sex and not wanting kids is the same as wanting to skydive but not to die. Only a fucking moron would think that they could sign away responsibilities of a human life just because they only thought there was a 1% chance of it being created.

That is 100% the argument for abortion.

You can only force a woman to term if you remove all agency from her and tie her down for 9 months and remove the baby through c-section.

You are fine removing the agency of the man for 18 years.

It's quite simple. Either they both can escape from the consequences or neither can. Either men can choose to abort or remove their parental rights if they don't wish to keep the child and the woman is solely responsible for the financial care of a child she wishes to keep or the women have to be forced to carry the child to term.

How is a child being born a financial strain because of the man when he had no choice in the birth? If the man says no I don't want the child that's his choice. It's just a fetus, he should be able to have it terminated, right? Unless it's not part of him and doesn't matter in which case why is he suddenly responsibly for it only when is born.

Basically you are a fucking retard without a basic grasp of human decency.

[–]thmz0 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

If you equate financial support to a child you conceived and being forced to bring a baby through term then you are just not able to understand the issue on a reasonable level.

You are advocating for a man to have a right to say no to all responsibility for HIS BABY. What kind of fucked up world do you want to live in in which this is completely OK? How can you force the rest of society to take care of YOUR BABY just because you don't feel like having it even though YOU HAD CONSENSUAL SEX?

Are you devoid of having a sense of responsibility? How can you advocate for a contractual right to let go of responsibilities to a child when a person already willingly agreed to sex and opted in to the responsibility of having a child by HAVING CONSENSUAL SEX?

Why should society let you change your mind after making a choice and paying for it on your behalf?

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And that's exactly where I wanted to get - how can we want perfect equality when our biology is so different? And why does the biology point comes up only when it disadvantages men (I'll tell you why, because men are biologically expendable - a man produces 18 million sperm cells oer day and women have one fertile cell per month, a single man can impregnate thousands of women, a single women with a thousand men will generate a single offspring) and never when we talk about why men make more money in total or why only men had access to the military (instead of making the required fitness level lower for women soldiers)?

That's the hypocrisy of feminism, I realize our biological differences perfectly but then again I also know that perfect equality will never be possible (this doesn't mean we shouldn't strive for a more fair treatment of both genders).

Edit: if you're reading this, wether you agree or don't, please take the time to read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarchy#Biological_theory and realize that our biological differences are way more than skin deep.

[–]newaccount 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (20 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Rezlan-1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Oh I'll help you, the hypocrisy is pretending we don't have biological differences and that the societal differences are not largely derivative of those, the male sperm count makes it so that even if only a million males were left alive they could repopulate earth in one generation as long as 3 billion women are still alive.

What does this entice? That if a real world war broke again, men would be cannon meat in the frontlines, which in turns makes it so that since men had to fight wars and win the spoils they got to the best positions of power.

Chalking all that up to the "patriarchy" and how boys don't want to let the girls play with their toys is disingenuous, it becomes hypocritical when there's one obvious advantage given to women by biology (carrying the baby and logically having the agency to get rid of it) suddenly biologically related advantages exist and shouldn't be challenged.

[–]newaccount2 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Rezlan0 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Come on you know what I mean - let's be clearer so you can't hang to issues of "form" and can go right into the substance.

Do feminists recognize that the lesser employment rate (and subsequently, the gross sum of the salary received) might depend on the fact that men are faster and stronger on average and take less days and time off (again, biological difference like a monthly discomfort) or do they keep protesting about the "gender gap"?

Do women recognize that men are more likely to be upfront about wanting a pay rise, more aggressive in their pursuit of a better social status and less focused on building a family on average, thus leading to better positions at most jobs (look at the effects of testosterone on the development of character and tell me this is not a biological difference too) or do they protest about a "glass ceiling"?

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[–]Rezlan1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I think feminists should consider that women have wombs and men don't when talking about inequality, yeah - I think feminists should realize that men have a larger income on average because they take less paid leave and are more competitive thanks to biological difference, that feminists should consider that men make up the 90% of all work related deaths (no only the nice lead scientist or CEO jobs atop of the glass ceiling) - yeah I honestly think the well is poisoned by dishonest ignorance of biological differences and of ignorance of all the disadvantages men suffer because of how society is built up (which is not a "patriarchy" in any way, it's just a term adopted to address men as the enemies - a real patriarchy is when the power is passed from father to son and women have 0 access to it - really not the case in most western countries).

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That needs to be factored into the mother's decision of whether she's going to keep the baby. If a couple accidentally gets pregnant, the guy doesn't want to keep the child but the mother does or is on the fence, it has to be considered whether she's willing to raise a baby by herself, without financial support.

Because whether it's a legal option currently, that is still the reality for a lot of people. It should require some kind of legal document to be signed, declaring the father's intentions and giving up rights and responsibilities as a parent, that way he can't just dip after a few months and be let off the hook.

Whether it's fair to the child almost doesn't matter. It's going to happen regardless of whether it's legal. Making it legal gives an option to men who don't want to be a father. A child growing up with a father there who doesn't want them is even more unfair.

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See, we're not talking about the kid, we're talking about giving the father the choice to not have a child at all, like women have.

You're asking something to be 'fair' which can't be fair without sacrificing one of the breadwinners for the child to live off of. This is absolutely about the child. There's two ways to make things fair for men: They're not financially responsible for their child that they decide they don't want or they get to make a women legally required to have an abortion. The first case is what I'm talking about the second case is so barbaric it's not worth talking about.

By saying that a man's sperm is his responsibility, you're saying that women (that can choose to dodge that responsibility by having an abortion) aren't either responsible for their action or somehow child like creatures, which is infinitely more sexist than holding them accountable, like men are.

Their egg IS their responsibility. They're bound to the child when it's born just the same as the father. They just get an extra option because the baby is brought to term in their body.

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The trouble you're having is that it's a dumb argument.

Before having sex, both would-be parents have equal rights to walk away. If a man doesn't want to have a baby, it's his responsibility to have a fucking conversation with his partner first and ensure they're on the same page. If you don't have that conversation, you are accepting the risk of bringing a dependent into the world and all the difficulty that comes with that.

While a woman is pregnant, only she gets to unilaterally decide what to do with her body. The man has the same right, it's just less relevant because he doesn't have a fetus inside him.

After the child is born, again both parents have the same rights and responsibilities: they need to care for the child or go through the legal process to remove that responsibility. Child support is not 100% the man's responsibility. Parents not living together both have responsibility to care for the child and child support payments are a way for the non-custody parent (who is not always the man) to meet that responsibility. It's true that the courts and our culture have a bias towards mothers in this regard largely because of the sexist beliefs that mothers are more important to children and that caring for children is primarily a woman's job. These sexist beliefs manifest in many many ways that are harmful to women and plenty of ways that are harmful to men. But it's absolutely never the case that caring for a child is 100% the man's responsibility.

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They do make guys wear condoms? They do get birth control?

Not all of them. Just like not all guys actually take precautions either. You dumb?

If you know when I'm about to nut could you just make me pull out.

Ok? And people literally fail at this frequently. Lol.

Any girl I've ever fucked we knew going into it if we would keep the baby or have an abortion.

Ok so if a woman does not know these things beforehand, and does not force a condom on, she shouldn't have the right to an abortion? She made her choice right? Like what you are saying about the men?

The fact that you keep talking about your anecdotal experience vs the possible experiences shows that you are a stupid person.

If you can't agree on that why fuck? The argument for men's rights seems most applicable when the people are drunk.

Ya and if a woman and a man get drunk and have sex the man is completely fucked and left to the choices of the women "because thats what's best for the child" while the women can terminate the pregnancy

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[–]jesse14120 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

That's exactly their point, yet you call them an idiot? They fully agreed with your point (that pregnancy is always either intentional or the fault of both participants). They used that point (your point) to conclude that abortion should not be allowed and men should be required to support and/or raise their biological children. If the parents are 100% responsible for the pregnancy, then they should both accept that they made a mistake and must raise a child.

Of course, all of that relies on the premise that pregnancies can't happen accidentally unless both participants make a mistake, which I doubt they actually agree with.

Any girl I've ever fucked we knew going into it if we would keep the baby or have an abortion.

And what if she changes her mind after the fact? You are currently considered responsible.

I have no strong opinion as there's no fair solution. The child is an unwilling participant and deserves a minimum amount of care, but both the man and women deserve an opinion. There is no solution fair to all 3 in some cases.

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Just thinking your opinion would change if you had some first-hand experience. Seems like a lot of people have an opinion on things that have not, do not, and seemingly will not effect them. That's all.

No one is forcing people to have consensual sex sure, but are you a virgin? When you had sex for the first time, were you 100% ready to have a baby?

What about people who are forced to have sex? Rape is very, very common all around the world. Their fault right? For... Going for a run. Going to a party. Being dosed GHB. Going to the lake with their relative for family time. Their fault, right?

I respect your feelings. They are not invalid at all. I just don't believe you are really thinking of all of the possibilities surrounding abortion. You have this notion that horrible things can't/won't happen to you, and I hope they never do. But the possibility is never zero.

[–]BraindeadRddit1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I have been with my girl for 6 years. Never had a pregnancy scare, but if she did get pregnant neither of us would even be mad because we are committed to each other anyway.

When I had sex for the first time I was not ready, but I also grew up in southern california and believed the zeitgeist that if you dont hook up with people you're a loser, that abortion is fine blah blah blah.

Actually because I think of all the possibilities allows me to hold this belief. There is a 0.1% chance the condom doesnt work. There are a million situations.

The preferred one is you are like me and in a committed relationship or married

Less preffered is you're not committed but you become committed for the child

Third is child support situation or adoption

Least desireable is not just abortion, but A CULTURE IN WHICH PROMOTES ABORTION AND RAMPANT SEX. A culture which believes elimination the 3 above options at all costs is the ultimate goal. Because those situations are not utilitarian for people who just want to get their dick wet

To me, it's about a more civilized society as a whole, that would resort to killing and a Last resort. Even if it is easier and more pleasureable.

Peoppe would talk to the end of time about how hyper sexualized society as gotten but won't dare consider cummies NOT being a right with no repercussions.

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Condoms are less effective, and that is when used correctly. I have a few friends who were the result of just using condoms.

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I dont think a man should be allowed to abort a child, but I think a man should be able to remove all his rights and financial obligations regarding a child in the same period as a woman is allowed

But a woman is not allowed to do that either. What the woman is allowed to do, is to remove the child as a result of her bodily autonomy.

She is not allowed to remove rights and financial obligations, divorced from the removal of the child (in any way that is different from the other parent).

I think one at least has to consider that this makes abortion a special case, because only if you remove the child, the problem of financial responsibility vanishes as a whole. That doesn't happen in any other case.

The big problem is tho, this is nothing to do with what is fair and right, but to government obligations to keep a child out of poverty. If the man doesnt pay, the government has more expenses

I am totally with you here: In the end implementing a policy of "removal of rights and obligations" (different from mutually agreeing to give the child up for adoption), just leads to a host of social and financial problems which, on a practical level, outweigh the inequality that results from a man's inability to get pregnant and abort.

[–]sordiddamocles 10 points11 points12 points 5 years ago (18 children) | Copy Link

[–]canitakemybraoffyetIm with HER 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (7 children) | Copy Link

[–]sordiddamocles0 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

A single mother can do this at will, without the father's choice or similar circumstance. She automatically can do this without others involved. A non-husband who knows he's the father can't automatically do anything. He's on the hook, if she wants, or is denied everything, also if she wants. The only case where a guy could necessarily do this is if the mother's dead and all her and his family. Otherwise, either family can potentially interfere, leaving him on the hook, even if they don't have to pay jack. Having paternal custody without any maternal custody isn't enough. Only a single mother can play the sole choice game here with quiet impunity. In all other cases, other family immediately become a legal question, regardless of the father currently having sole custody. It's kinda like how several places have infanticide laws that reduce charges for mothers alone. It's NOT "for the child" since it only applies asymmetrically for her...

[–]canitakemybraoffyet1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]sordiddamocles1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

A mother or even other family can't exist, even without them holding actual custody, for a father to simply do this. An unmarried mother can simply do this by herself. ONLY a mother can automatically do this without interference, like I keep pointing out. I don't need to google yet again to point out what I've already covered repeatedly.

A special law doesn't have to explicitly reject a father doing this. That's blatantly logically bullshit. Other laws and policies will stop him, like I said. Other people are allowed to interfere in his case that can't necessarily interfere in hers. Shit, mothers have put kids up for adoption without the known father consenting, and the father couldn't get the kid back, even with the state admitting he didn't consent. Google that shit, like you actually pretend to care.

https://www.adoptionbirthmothers.com/fathers-rights-custody-adoption/

https://family.findlaw.com/paternity/parental-rights-unmarried-fathers-and-adoption.html

The laws/policies tend to require fathers to actively initiate various special legal processes that most people are never even told about, and, if he doesn't know about all this shit prior to, he's shit out of luck. He literally won't informed of unilateral adoption proceedings just because he's the father, even with established paternity.

Parental rights aren't remotely the same, and it's not about the kid when it's special maternal rights (even including infanticidal murder discounts...). They only use that bullshit to shut down the father when others want to infer, including backhanded state actors.

[–]Wollff-3 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Women CAN surrender the child.

And so can men.

In most 1st world countries, they can even do it spontaneously and anonymously at drop-offs.

If you can do it anonymously, and spontaneously, then so can men.

Obviously you will have a problem, when you do that without the consent of the other parent. No matter your gender.

When a mother or father comes running, because their child has gone missing, and the other parent says that they have dropped the child off somewhere, without the other parent's knowledge or approval...

Completely gender neutral problems for the "dropper" will come to pass. No matter the gender, as I understand it, that would be child abduction.

Women get arbitrary choices under the lie of children's rights. Men get unilateral obligations under women's choice OR children's rights.

So all in all: Since your assumptions seem like nonsense, I don't think I need to bother with your conclusions.

[–]sordiddamocles5 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]G18Curse4 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Wollff0 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Men aren't allowed to surrender children without a women's choice.

Which is it? Can you simply, spontaneously, and anonymously give children up at drop-offs, or can you not? Which of your statements is false?

Because one has to be. They directly contradict each other.

Women have to choose to allow men the potential for any choice.

Yes. And?

All of that is a direct result from the fact that children pop out of women after a period of nine months in which the father need not be involved. The result is that maternity is easily established, while paternity is not.

I have a hard time with your statements, because you do not tell me what you want, or what you expect here.

As far as you are addressing the legal situation, you are referring to rules which address common problems, without offering alternatives.

It's not automatically his legal child unless she chooses, and he doesn't automatically get to challenge for paternity, if he wants or even knows.

What is your alternative? I hear there sometimes are cases where children are fathered whose father is unknown. In those cases the mother will have to tell someone that the father is unknown. That option must be open to the mother, since those cases exist. There is no alternative.

I mean, I can imagine laws where there is a duty to inform a suspected father of his suspected parenthood. Which would be a valid rule, though I imagine is practically quite difficult to enforce, and, depending on the implementation, can open up a lot of new problems...

She gets the first set of choices, which in most places easily lets her off before he can be legally involved, if ever. She can avoid him entirely then pop back-child-support on him later.

And when, after years, the previously unknown rapist, and father of the child, is found, she can pop up, and demand child support from him later. Good.

Again, cases like those exist. So there needs to be an option for parents to pop up, after a previously unknown parent is identified, and to demand the child support they are owed. Those cases need to be accounted for.

There is, once again, no alternative, since cases like those exist. There must be the choice to list a father as unknown. And there must be a choice to pop up later, when a previously unknown parent is identified, and to demand what is owed. Those options must exist. There is no alternative.

And those options must lie with the parent who has the child. And, for the previously mentioned fact that children usually pop out of mothers, that often tends to be the mother.

I see no alternatives to any of that.

Even wives, which aren't even the majority of mothers nowadays, often run off with kids without facing charges,

Completely unsupported statement with weasel words. Sure, wives "often" run away without facing charges. And when you say that, then I will just, in an equally unsupported way, assert that there "often" are good reasons why women run away with children and not facing charges. And sometimes there are not good, but practical reasons why they are not facing charges.

your lies

Where am I lying?

I mean, my only complaint about you is that the arguments you make don't seem very well thought through. It's all probably well intended, but I just can't see what alternatives you imagine here.

[–]sordiddamocles3 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]SlapMyCHOP2 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Which is it? Can you simply, spontaneously, and anonymously give children up at drop-offs, or can you not? Which of your statements is false?

Because one has to be. They directly contradict each other.

They are both true. Which is true depends on your sex. If you are the mother, you can. If you are the father, you can't.

And when, after years, the previously unknown rapist, and father of the child, is found, she can pop up, and demand child support from him later. Good.

This is literally the dumbest argument. The number of rape babies pales in comparison to accidental pregnancies between people who are unready for such a responsibility. You are fucking over the majority for some sort of sick justice that I dont even think is justice. True justice is his conviction and her aborting the fetus.

[–]levian_durai3 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Wollff1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

In none of these options does the man have an option to be devoid of responsibility.

And he should? Why?

All you are saying here is that women have more options. There are some physiological reasons why that is the case. Aborting is difficult when you can't get pregnant. And the right to abort is a direct result of the mother's bodily autonomy. Fathers have no say here, and that is completely correct and indisputable. IMO.

And there are also some practical reasons why those other options exist. Mothers need the option to list the father of a child as unknown, because unknown fathers happen. I hear rape exists, for example. And when things like that happen, mothers also need the option to unilaterally give up a child for adoption.

It is true that these options can be abused, when the father is actually known, and a child is given up for adoption unilaterally. I can imagine reforms which address this specific problem, giving the father more rights in this case, or rights that are more easily enforceable.

Now I have explained to you in every single case why the mothers need the rights they have.

Why does the father need the option to be devoid of responsibility? Can you give me your reasoning behind it?

I suspect a big "Muh EQUALITY!!!" here, which, compared to the quite practical reasons I have given before... would seem a bit weak to me.

If the woman can choose to abort or adopt

The woman can choose to abort as a result of her bodily autonomy.

A woman can't unilaterally give up a child for adoption against the will of the father.

Sure, practically women can abuse the necessary option to list a father as unknown, in order to get toward an adoption against the will of the father. But when you close that loophole, that should solve the problem.

And as I see it, that is all which needs to be done here. Nothing else. Nothing more. Nothing different. There is no reason to change anything beyond that.

[–]ASupportingCharacter 1 point2 points3 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

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[–]Wollff-1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I don't think I am.

She is not allowed to remove rights and financial obligations, divorced from the removal of the child (in any way that is different from the other parent).

I was thinking about adoption when typing about removing rights and obligations, in a way that is the same for both parents.

So when both parents agree to give up the child for adoption, AFAIK there are no financial burdens on anyone. That's always an option.

On the other hand, when one parent wants to bring up the child, then it's the other partner's obligation to financially aid them to the best of their ability. A partner can unilaterally give up their rights toward the child, but they can not unilaterally give up their obligation toward supporting the other parent in raising the child. As I understand it, that's basically the situation in most countries.

Have I overlooked anything else in regard to adoption, or am I misinformed about something?

[–]princelydeeds 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]ShartyFart1 points 5 years ago [recovered] (3 children) | Copy Link

If the man didn't want a child he probably shouldn't have nutted in her 🤡

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The way I see it, is that a child has the right to not be neglected by it's parents, up to the limit of directly using bodily resources to survive (blood, organs, tissues, nutrients, etc). Therefore, a pregnant woman does have a responsibility to not neglect her child, however, that responsibility does not supercede her right to refuse bodily resources to anyone and anything including a fetus, or baby. We don't strap fathers down and force them to donate blood or organs to their children, we don't force them to give up bodily autonomy for their children, so we don't with women either. Men and women do have equal rights here in that no one is forced to give up bodily resources to their offspring.

We do however prosecute custodial parents (mothers and fathers) who, willingly or not, neglect their children, or deny them basic care like food, shelter, schooling, medical care, etc. Or society takes the child and places them in a situation where those needs will be met. The child support funds are a stand in to allow the custodial parent to adequately provide for the child, in accordance with the child's right to not be neglected, and the state will step in via wage garnishment if these funds are not being paid, same way the state will step in via CPS if the custodial parent is neglecting the child. Notice in this situation, neither parent is forced to give up bodily autonomy either. Again, bother parents have equal rights.

Now, you could certainly argue about the calculation, custody factors, etc, that go into deciding the payments and such, but child abandonment when bodily autonomy is not on the line is not equivalent to actual abortion before the child is born.

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[–]ArceusTheLegendary50 288 points289 points290 points 5 years ago* (116 children) | Copy Link

Biologically speaking, this is kinda true and depressing. It's one of the biggest reasons why women historically weren't allowed in the military; because what would happen if a country loses half its male population in a war is pretty insignificant compared to what would happen if a country lost half its female population instead.

That being said, there should be no reason whatsoever that "my body, my choice" suddenly becomes "your money, my choice". A woman can have have 3 abortions and give up her fourth child up for adoption and still be empowered, but a man who could already barely afford his rent is considered a deadbeat if he can't pay child support. The latter is even worse when you consider that a woman can rape a man and still have the legal power to sue him for child support. Not only that, but she can also steal a man's sperm either through sperm donations or oral sex, and still be able to sue for child support. And in California law, women have the power to claim that a man is the father of her child, with completely absence of evidence, and he has only 30 days to prove he's not the father. No fucking wonder society thinks you're a baby factory, you even have more reproductive rights than men (who coincidentally have 0 reproductive rights), and in some places like India (with India's case I think being due pressure from feminists), it's literally legal for women to rape a man and in the UK women are not legally rapists, per the 2003 Sexual Offences Act.. Even in the US, it wasn't until 2005 that the FBI changed their definition of rape to include women as potential perpetrators. So in reality, society thinks that women are entitled to men's bodies, but act like it's the other way around.

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[–][deleted] 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

As a feminist, I believe if men have to register for the draft, women and NB people should have to do so too. Many feminists agree with me.

That's a good view to have, but that's not really my point.

Nowadays there are too many decisions dependent on votes, that simply saying "who votes, has to register to be draft too" isn't that major of a deal anymore, compared to back then. It's still a point for equality, but it's not really an argument for having voting rights in the first place anymore.

My point was about making clear, that the "women couldn't vote, because of patriarchal oppresion" is a wrong repainting of what is actually historically true. That's my problem with current feminism.

Males fight and protect their females in the animal kingdom too, and since we evolved from there it just was a natural development for us humans to behave this way. There is just no "male conspiracy" that men all over the world try to oppress and rule over women. And it hasn't been like this in the past either. We are just as a species evolving away from our natural animalistic behavior, towards more conscious decisions.

[–]hypatiaspasia0 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No feminist I know thinks there a male conspiracy to rule over women. They think there is a problem of a predominant patriarchal culture that hurts men and women alike. 'Patriarchy' is what makes men feel they need to be stoic and endure with bottled emotions, which leads to higher suicide rates. In such a culture, the only acceptable emotions for a man to express are joy and anger. It is what makes male rape victims feel they can't report the crime against them for fear of being laughed at and not taken seriously. This hurts everyone.

I don't think there's a male conspiracy. I do think conservative Christians are trying to reinforce this harmful patriarchal culture, to the detriment of everyone. But of course, conservatives are not all men. And women can also be fervent supporters of the patriarchy.

[–]WrodofDog 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

[–]Prickly-Flower0 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It had absolutely nothing to do with who could be sent to war and who couldn't. I don't know where you got that from, but it's utter nonsense. Women were seen as uncapable of anything else than giving birth. They were not allowed to have property, unless unmarried, otherwise whatever assets they had would become the man's. It had everything to do with men wanting to have all the power. And with rich men having more power than poor men, which is why until late 19th century, only men from the upperclasses were allowed to vote. When you didn't own land, you could not vote, regardless of your sex. Guess who were sent off to fight in the front lines. Yep, men from the lower classes! So they couldn't vote, but they could die for those who could.

Mind, even as a child I never understood why men were drafted into the army and women weren't. Whatever was unjust concerning women's rights, I also thought that was unjust towards the men. Equal rights means equal obligations as far as I'm concerned. That's part of feminism.

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[–]Prickly-Flower1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Thanks, they are completely disregarding the fact that only wealthy and land owning men could vote, so as to keep the power, and the fact that women were not allowed anything men were, until deep in the 20th century. Things like opening a bank account w/o a man's signature, owning property, heck even reading was seen as something that would melt their brains, let alone getting a proper education. They were legally the property of their fathers until they married, and then they became the property of their husbands, including any assets they might have gotten through inheritance. But understanding social history and understanding how intricately women were suppresed is not something some want to do. It's a shame that the loudest voices are often the most ignorant, on both sides of the argument, as that is not helping anyone. Injustices towards men regarding for example child custody, or fake rape allegations, or the retarted notion that men cannot be raped do not mean women weren't, and in too many place still are, being treated as second rate citizens.

[–]Reformedjerk-1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

That's what blows mind.

If you accept that there are inustices towards men, it should make it easier, not harder to accept there are and have been injustices towards women.

I think a big part of it is that this is a complex topic, and its tempting to make 'gotcha' points that agree with your point of view.

A woman should be able to choose whether or not she carries a child to term. Pregnancy and childbirth is difficult and painful.

On the flip side, if a woman can choose to have an abortion so she doesn't derail her life, it does make sense that the father does deserve the same kind of rights.

What that looks like is complicated. A man shouldn't be able to force a woman to have, or not have an abortion. Both options have significant consequences on the woman's health.

It's something we need to address, but we can't have the conversation because the base decision, the right for a woman to choose isn't even guaranteed.

[–][deleted] 13 points14 points15 points 5 years ago* (21 children) | Copy Link

in some places like the UK ... it's literally legal for women to rape a man

Hi, UK lawyer here - it's not legal. This misconception comes from the fact that in statue, the offence of "rape" is defined as a person (A) penetrating the mouth, ~~penis~~ anus or vagina of another person (B) with his penis when B did not consent and A did not reasonably believe they consented.

By this the legal definition of the word "rape" only allows for the offender to be a man. But when you say "it's legal for a woman to rape a man" you're suggesting that a woman can legally force a man to have sex with her, which is untrue. In those circumstances the woman would be charged under other sections of the Sexual Offences Act 2003 (e.g. sexual assault, assault by penetration) and though it's unfair that such an offence can't be labelled as 'rape' and we can't call the woman a 'racist', similar sentencing options are open to the judge. So to say she can legally rape a man, which suggests she wouldn't be committing a crime, is wrong.

Thanks for listening to my TED talk /s.

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Sexual assault, is defined broadly as any assault (as defined in section 265 of the Code) that transpires in circumstances of a sexual nature.

Still get a bias, which might interact with the lack of detail. "Female abusers must do something severe and obvious before they will be held accountable as perpetrators. Males must be abused in more severe and obvious ways before we will take them seriously as victims." -- Health Canada

Can you point me to where they write that?

Incidentally, why do the recently updated Canadian assault laws mention female genitals explicitly, by all general parts no less, but nothing male at all under those equally relevant "invalid" "mutilation" laws? 268(3) added that last year apparently.

Because in Canada female genital mutilation of any type is illegal while we still allow male genital mutilation in the form of circumcision. Something I am vehemently against as a blatant example of sexism in Canada.

[–]sordiddamocles 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

Can you point me to where they write that?

Ah, finally found a copy... It's explicitly about young male victims, though it has general gender references. There's a more official link, if you want.

Considering their "myths" section mentions men(#5), I'm confused why they have special orgs/departments/whatever for women specifically, but none for men. From what I am finding in the search results on that site, it's perversely amusing how they waffle between admitting there's a hidden problem of massive bias against male victims yet citing what they just called biased assumptions as obvious facts of mostly male perpetrators. They say they want to correct the bias, while insisting repeatedly that it's not a bias in the same damn papers. Gee, I wonder why the problem's not improving...

As that first paper puts it:

When prevalence statistics are given for male victimization, it is common to hear the response that the vast majority of abusers of males are other males, a belief which is simply not true. This comment is usually intended to frame male victimization as a "male problem."

Even that paper ironically claims the old "sexual double standard", which doesn't hold up to research but does wash out in a rather nasty way.

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If you polled feminists I think you’d find that a majority are in favour of a gender equal draft, or simply oppose the draft in general, for both sexes. Quote below from https://www.ncronline.org/news/politics/feminists-weigh-draft-registration-women to illustrate from history and current debates:

In 1981, a group of men brought a case before the Supreme Court that argued being singled out for compulsory [military conscription] violated their right to equal protection. A number of women's groups, including the National Organization for Women (NOW), filed briefs contending that exclusion from the draft violated the constitutional rights of women.

"Compulsory universal military service is central to the concept of citizenship in a democracy," the NOW brief asserted. It predicted "devastating long-term psychological and political repercussions" would result if women were excluded from "the compulsory involvement in the community's survival that is perceived as entitling people to lead it and to derive from it the full rights and privileges of citizenship."

A similar brief filed by 12 other women's organizations, including the League of Women Voters, argued that exempting women from draft registration echoed "the stereotypic notions about women's proper place in society that in the past promoted 'protective' labor laws and the exclusion of women from juries."

The Supreme Court upheld the exclusion of women in 1981 as women were banned from combat anyway and as a result, were not in an identical situation to men. This ban on combat for women was removed under Obama.

[–]hypatiaspasia3 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Most feminists simply want equitable treatment. I think this sub bases a lot of its ideas of feminism on Tumblr/Twitter feminists, many of whom are loud cringey idiots who don't know WTF they're talking about. There are tons of male feminists (like, for example, almost all of Hollywood) that get forgotten about.

I'm a woman and a feminist, and like most other feminists, I don't believe women are superior or should have preferential treatment at all. We believe if men should have to register for the draft, women and NB people should too. We believe patriarchy hurts men just as much as women. For example, by forcing guys to bottle their emotions, which leads to high suicide rates. Part of feminism is believing men should be allowed to have emotions without being called a pussy. Or being able to report their own rape without being laughed at.

I worry that most people here paint all feminists with the same brush. I'm sure I'll just get downvotes for admitting I'm a feminist, but I'm here if you have any questions.

[–]ka-reem2 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

As a muslim I know how generalization over misconception can hurt you , trust me D:

And as a middle eastern, I know how misogynistic societies can look like (thankfully not the case anymore in most urban societies in my country, Egypt, anymore.)

I know that not all feminists are like that. I even consider myself a feminist in a sense that gender shouldn't be taken in consideration unless it biologically makes significant difference (maternity leave anyone ?). I don't like the title "feminist" tho, to me it's just called being a decent human being.

That said, Feminists that are actually making a scene and affecting general perception and most socially effective are the lousy cringey ones which is quite unfortunate. The biggest issue is that those are the ones who affect the "less intellectual individuals" (for a lack of better term) the most. The type of women who only care about easily obtained privileges not what's actually right.

I hope brave women like you convey the right image about gender equity over time or else male oppression is gonna become a real problem in the near future (kinda begun you know).

Have a great day :)

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Feminist ideology promotes equality of all genders.

Then why do so many feminist organizations keep pushing for blatantly sexist, anti-male and anti-LGBT legislature? Why do all the prominent feminist figures constantly block, strike down or protest bills that would help men? Why do pro-equality feminist activists stop being feminists? Why are feminist subreddits always about women's issues (even MensLib)?

The inventor of women's shelters in the US was harassed by feminists and her dog was murdered, because she dared suggest women abused men at far higher rates than initially thought.

"Most feminists" are perfectly fine with the Duluth Model. Therefore, "most feminists" are sexists.

Most feminists would agree that single dads currently get a shitty deal and that we should fix broken legal and social welfare systems so all children are wanted and well-cared for.

Then why do they keep blocking shared parenting bills, like Mary P Koss did?

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[–]LukaCola-1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

No. The phrase works very well here as well.

You're just blind to that privilege.

You're completely unaware of all the ways being male in a male dominated society benefits us, maybe if you spent some time listening to other people's experiences you'd start to realize what you take for granted.

Gender normative behaviors hurt everyone - but if you ask me you're clearly self-centered about this.

Have you made any effort to understand the concerns and hardships faced by women in particular? Do you understand them? You've spent so much time wallowing in your own issues, expecting others to relate and go "woe is you," but if you can't do that to others - how do you expect others to do it to you?

I ain't asking you to read "The Second Sex," but you know... Maybe make some effort to understand.

[–]ProfessorChuckFinley3 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]ProfessorChuckFinley1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Im not trying to insult you by calling you a virgin. Im making a specific point, which is -

You seem to think youre an expert on women, and surely you reject ideas like the red pill. You are nice to women and fight for their rights, and yet youre still a virgin. You dont find that strange?

You dont know women nearly as much as you think you do.

I sincerely doubt that. It reads like a reddit atheist going "Oh yeah I know the bible" where he went through and underlined all the things he doesn't like.

Well, if you had actually given an argument, I wouldve given a rebuttal and it would be clear that I am plenty familiar with feminist theory. I even told you to check my post history (since you admitted you did anyway) and look at a recent comment where I gave a long argument in response to a feminist.

You didnt though, because you dont seem interested in actually hearing an opposing argument or having a real debate.

Are you gonna give an actual argument, or are we done here?

[–]LukaCola1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You seem to think youre an expert on women, and surely you reject ideas like the red pill. You are nice to women and fight for their rights, and yet youre still a virgin. You dont find that strange?

You're still projecting. I don't think I'm an expert on women - I'm not even sure what that'd look like. You also seem to think I'd fight for the rights of women out of some selfish desire for sex? Like, what? I believe in people's rights for its own sake.

And shit dude - I have enough sex. You don't need to be so concerned about my sex life, it's neither here nor there. Your preoccupation with it is very telling about you personally however.

Are you gonna give an actual argument, or are we done here?

You've literally been trying to identify me as a virgin for awhile and keep trying to stick that and you're gonna act like you're just here to understand people's views.

Yeah, nah, you're just a shitty dude with a chip on his shoulder.

We weren't "doing anything." You're an unreasonable and contemptible person. Your whole post towards that feminist is so laden with pseudo-science and completely ignorant characterizations of human behavior that clearly doesn't understand the very thing it's trying to critique.

And that's why there's no argument to be had. You're just captious, you're not trying to understand anything. You make arguments based on ignorance.

[–]ProfessorChuckFinley1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

All that text and still no argument.

I made a claim in a sub that generally agrees with the claim. You went out of your way to come to this sub and disagree with people. Its not like you just posted a comment in response to OP, you are replying to comments and disagreeing with them.

However, youre not giving arguments. Youre insulting people and telling them to read. When I pointed this out, you admitted you werent giving arguments, because you said "I dont need to give an argument, theres no argument to respond to."

You are wrong for the reason I just explained. You came into this sub and started challenging peoples claims. If youre going to challenge our claims in our sub, the burden of proof is on you.

Despite all of this, I told you to check my post history for a long comment that I had just made (so it would be easy to find). It was a response I made to a reaaonable feminist. It had actual arguments.

But you didnt give any arguments in response to it. You made baseless claims, like "its pseudoscience." Then you dishonestly state that Im just insulting you instead of giving arguments. I gave a thorough argument and you repeatidly refused to address it and kept insulting me. So I decided to make fun of you back. And now youre playing the victim.

And shit dude - I have enough sex

We are on the internet, man. You dont need to lie about getting sex. You might not be a virgin, but theres no way that a white knight like yourself gets "plenty of sex."

[–]LukaCola1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]ProfessorChuckFinley1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Still no argument.

I made valid points in that other comment with that feminist. You disagree, you think theyre wrong. If my points are so wrong, why cant you explain why any of those points are wrong? You said "its pseudoscience" and "you dont understand what youre talking about." Thats not explaining why a point is wrong. Its a baseless claim.

You are saying that my argument is obviously wrong, yet you cant actually explain why, despite all the comments youve made.

And dont give me any crap about how "it would take too much time" or "it would be a waste of time", because youve spent so much time insulting me and making baseless claims. If you had spent that time just explaining why my points are wrong, you could have done it already.

But you didnt. Why? Because you have no counter argument. So instead you insult me, make baseless claims about how "its pseudoscience", and pretend that youre not interested in debating.

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Treating women as obstacles? In what process?

If asking that men are given fair right to not be burden of raising a child/child support when they didn't want them from the get go is self centered, then a woman decides to bear and raise a child and still want the men to fully support them is self centered as well.

How many news report/article have you read that men are forced to pay ridiculous amount of money for child support/alimony, sometimes even 2/3 of his monthly wages while he barely scrapes for breakfast? How is it fair that even a teenage male rape victim can still be sued for child support from the adult rapist? How is it fair that woman can get sperms from the sperm bank and sue the donor for support? How is it fair that a divorced woman can still force child support on her ex when the child is not even his? How is it fair that a woman can take a sperm from a mans condom, get pregnant and force to support her?

[–]LukaCola1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Ugh, most of what you're identifying aren't even actual issues. Like - if they existed in this way that you portray them they would be but they're either false, heavily exaggerated, or missing key elements. They don't go the way you're insinuating they do as though this portrayal is typical or at all reflects the norms. This is the problem with spending time on subs like this, they mislead people. You're basically buying into false narratives - and this is part of the issue. But moreover, this is frankly a gish gallop of issues. Yes, I could address a lot of it, but my question is very simple: What do you know of other's plights?

This is what I mean by self-centered. You're very focused on what you can personally relate to. Have you ever spent time to understand other's views? Have you ever read the feminist take on child support for instance? Do you give them the same time and effort you expect to get in return?

I'm sure you've seen many articles about how unfair men are treated, but do you then seek another perspective?

https://everydayfeminism.com/2013/08/bias-against-fathers/

This for instance doesn't put the blame on one party over the other - it does however point out how these narratives that seek to blame are harmful.

[–]kazez22 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]kazez22 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]kazez22 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

And yet how many feminist actually hold to this definition?

feminists, who define it as "a system of social structures, and. practices in which men dominate, oppress and exploit."

Feminist theory of Patriarchy directly from google. So because the people on the top are men, the criminals are men then every other men are to be blamed as well?

Like I said - because you're self-centered.

And you're not? You've been saying women are unfairly treated in the past(which is true) but when men said anything it's wrong and a non-issue.

You treat it as if it's some competition, a zero sum game.

Who does this? me or you? I want men to have a fair chance as women has, opting out of these things women could. I want men to have better support than we have now which is close to nonexistent.

When men/mens right points out issue that are caused by women like in OP, suddenly it's wrong and just blaming for no reason but when feminist does it it's suddenly a revelation and to be put on the pedestal? Sure

[–]LukaCola1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You know - I try to have a conversation and you instead just keep hammering home why you're not even trying to understand, instead you just seek ways to malign.

And yet how many feminist actually hold to this definition?

Like this. You clearly don't understand the views or the perspectives, yet you're willing to argue who believes what. Where do you get off with that kind of misplaced arrogance?

Feminist theory of Patriarchy directly from google. So because the people on the top are men, the criminals are men then every other men are to be blamed as well?

See, like this shit too. You aren't trying to identify and understand the definition and the power structure it has - you want to point fingers. You're purely tribalistic in this regard.

When men/mens right points out issue that are caused by women like in OP, suddenly it's wrong and just blaming for no reason but when feminist does it it's suddenly a revelation and to be put on the pedestal?

You know - if feminism were actually put on a pedestal, that'd be something. It's an oft maligned viewpoint, this sub isn't some aberration.

Also, women didn't "cause the issue" in the OP. Like... That's such an unreasonable characterization. It's shit like that which makes it impossible to discuss anything of significance, and also undermines your very point.

You're clearly seeking to blame women for things - even things like the fact that they're the ones who get pregnant and have a say in it more than the ones who aren't pregnant. Like... Other people don't get to tell you what operations you get, that's kind of a core part of our legal and ethics system yet you're so focused on "well what about the men" that you don't even see how big an issue this is.

You're trying to support men by pitting it at the cost of women's rights. Feminism does not do that.

And you're not?

Considering I read up on and try to understand issues that will never effect me, since I am a cishet white man, I'd say at least less so than you are. But I do believe that these problems hurt all of us - but rather than understand that, you're too busy pointing fingers and trying to construct narratives where you're the victim of unfair treatment.

Good luck with that dude. I'm sure it'll be very productive.

[–]kazez22 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

From what I've seen, what society are doing now to mens issue is similar to what they've done to feminist at its beginning, trying to shut them down and downplay anything that affects men.

Yeah I might sound arrogance, or is it frustration? Have feminist not done this?

Feminist=women's right? I thought they're for equality? Why not help women as well as men? Just talking about it on paper and articles are not helping, it's just sweet talk "look we're helping men as well". Action speaks louder than words, and from what I've seen there's even barely of them both, except when it's blaming the entirety of men for womens suffering. Also not supporting feminism=/=not supporting women's right. Ask men's right supporter and almost everyone will say they support them(there are misogynistic people obviously, I will not sugarcoat that).

You talk like I'm blaming every women on earth for the plight of men, while I'm just pointing out the fucked up things that shitty women has done in this specific case.

[–]LukaCola1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

From what I've seen, what society are doing now to mens issue is similar to what they've done to feminist at its beginning, trying to shut them down and downplay anything that affects men.

Yeah, because you're short-sighted and self-centered. You aren't aware of how others operate, so you assume about them.

Ask men's right supporter and almost everyone will say they support them

MRAs are anti-feminists - and that's easily demonstrated when the top posts of its subs are all about anti-feminism.

MRAs support women's rights as they see them as deserving it. Not as how women or feminists see it.

Those who are seeking to help men's issues where they are suffering, often due to patriarchal values that for instance posit men as insufficient caregivers, are typically feminists. Because feminism is the theory system that attempts to understand and address gender inequality. /r/menslib for instance is not anti-feminist and is far more productive in its outlook. If you want to support gender equality, you support feminism, you don't make it out as if it's your enemy. Then you're just picking fights, as evidenced here.

Feminist=women's right? I thought they're for equality? Why not help women as well as men?

They are for equality, hence why they're seeking to gender inequality which by and large affects women.

You might as well go "All Lives Matter" while you're at it if you think it's a problem to recognize inequality as is.

You talk like I'm blaming every women on earth for the plight of men, while I'm just pointing out the fucked up things that shitty women has done in this specific case.

You've dedicated all your posts to painting men as the victim of systemic injustice while discounting and attacking far better identified and substantiated issues facing women - and then acting as if men are being demonized in the process.

If you want to support gender equality as it relates to men, read /r/menslib - they're actually a positive role for that.

[–]kazez21 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

MRAs support women's rights as they see them as deserving it. Not as how women or feminists see it.

That's your own interpretation. And there are plenty of women in MRA as well.

menslib are just feminism moderated sub, anything that paints women in bad light, even when it's true gets shut down. While when men are to blame it stays.

Those who are seeking to help men's issues where they are suffering, often due to patriarchal values that for instance posit men as insufficient caregivers, are typically feminists.

Because a lot of attemps from MRA gets shut down, ignored, harrased or even killed. Sounds like what happened to feminism of old, but to MRA.

You've dedicated all your posts to attacking issues that paint men as the victim of systemic injustice while discounting and attacking far better identified and substantiated issues facing women

What? Where did I downplay Any womens issue? the issue in OP mainly affects men(forcing financial burden) and the first thing I pointed out to you are the issues that affects mainly men. Don't put words in my mouth.

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The court stated that the state’s interest in ensuring that a minor receives child support outweighed its interest in potentially deterring sexual crimes against minors.

This. The government doesn’t care about justice. It doesn’t care about men’s reproductive rights or if you are even the father at all. It just cares about finding someone, anyone it can pin the child on. And it’s not even limited to America. Here in Czech Republic there are a handful of guys who found out “their” child was not theirs, proved it in court with a DNA test, the mother even confessed and ID’d the real father, but the court still awarded her child support because there is an arbitrary deadline for contesting parenthood. And since the deadline is set too early for the father to get suspicious about the child looking nothing like him (barring of course the cliche “wrong skin color thing”) your only real way as a man to be sure that you won’t get stuck paying for another man’s child for 25 years is doing a DNA test just in case which of course nobody wants to even think about.

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This is the most direct study I found since others keep trying to connect "hostile sexism" with "benevolent sexism" and keep insisting female privilege is sexist against women, despite demanding the same things and more with different rhetoric while calling it "equality" or "equity". It's patriarchy OR feminism but only when the "experts" feel like either.

https://uwspace.uwaterloo.ca/handle/10012/6958

Apparently, this was the same person, but she jams in certain claims before the actual studies then "interprets" based on the claims beyond actual results of those studies.

https://uwspace.uwaterloo.ca/handle/10012/13207

There's TONS of MORE meandering shit you have to sift through, where they claim "facts" not in evidence about supposed sexist requirements for the "benevolent sexism". It's literally the same game they play with the "women are wonderful" effect.

See this odd wiki paragraph with all that"who?" and the talk page where they fail to justify the claims they're openly failing to reference to wiki standards, which still stays as a section on the article, against the wiki rules. Almost like there's a double-standard for a gender-based agenda.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women-are-wonderful_effect#Criticism

This kinda shit's funny too.
https://theconversation.com/why-women-including-feminists-are-still-attracted-to-benevolently-sexist-men-101067

"Understanding these nuances may allow us to reduce the negative effects of benevolent sexism without requiring women to reject the actual good things that can arise from this behavior."

Translation: Keep giving women privileges, just feign equality according to our pretenses since only our gender role asymmetry isn't sexist.

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But there are cases like when I worked in Family law, where we (the children’s attorney) sent a bill of about $5,000 to the county, and that doesn’t count the moms and fathers attorney who is also appointed. Nor does it count the judge, bailiff, court reporter, etc.‘s wages, or other extraneous costs.

Let’s say the mom’s attorney had about the same bill. And the father’s attorney was appointed too. Well, in this instance, the father ended up getting his wages garnished (another expense for the state/county), but with how poor he was and the fact that he had two other kids he had with his current baby-mamma, do you know what we got out of him? Approx. $16/paycheck (weekly pay)...so about $800/yr. at this rate, it’d take more than 17 years MINIMUM, for $16/week to pay off just what it cost the court. At that point, depending on the age of the child, the State just giving the mom the equivalent of $20+/week would probably be cheaper for the State, and she’d receive more money.

So it’s not always for the interest of the child.

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You didnt make an argument, just baseless claims.

He said without a hint of irony at that!

Ironic that youre telling me that I live in a bubble when thats exactly how sjws live. Ignoring and censoring valid arguments that they cant rebuttal.

He said in a sub that doesn't even allow non-subscribers to downvote and when he devotes all his time on reddit to male outrage subs.

Like - it's not about "can't," the arguments are so fucking self-evident that it's clear if you're this dense it's caused by something else entirely - and that something else is clearly the company you keep feeding into a belief system that would not survive without that constant feeding.

Do you ever wonder why those that actually are experts in matters of gender don't espouse the same things you do? What is it about actual knowledge that keeps people "blind" to how unfairly men are treated in this world?

Guess we'll never, ever know.

[–]ProfessorChuckFinley5 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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[–]ProfessorChuckFinley3 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

You didn't make anything to counter

I clearly did. I made a claim (not an attack or anything like that), and you havent addressed that claim. You said its wrong, but gave no reason. You just said that I "need to read more" and a bunch of other nonsense.

You made a "because I say so" argument

No. Ironically, thats exactly what youve done. Its interesting that psychological projection is so common when it comes to fallicious arguments.

Not that it matters - I'm not here to debate deluded people.

You clearly are here to debate. But since youre losing the debate, youre pretending that Im "deluded" and therefore youre no longer interested in debating.

Its sour grapes. The fox who cant reach the grapes says "theyre sour anyway", even though they arent. Just like how you lost this debate, and now youre saying "I didnt wanna debate anyway."

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[–]uberduger 80 points81 points82 points 5 years ago* (110 children) | Copy Link

It is fucking terrifying to have a decision that can completely ruin your life be made by only one of the two.

There should be a law where if you want an abortion during that initial window of possibility, as either one of the two parents, you immediately disavow any further rights but are also "off the hook" for any further financial responsibility.

If you don't want a kid but the other party is insistent on it, you shouldn't be forced to pay for it for 18 years.

How this has never been seriously campaigned for is a complete mystery to me.

EDIT: Lot of talk about the effectiveness of birth control and the ethics of abortions, but my main point is that it's odd that in the eyes of the law, the woman can decide whether or not to abort without the guy having a say. The guy has absolutely no say in an abortion unless the woman agrees with him. I feel that's an odd legal dichotomy, now that the financial responsibility is assumed to be split at least equally.

My issue is that I don't think only one party should get a say without the other party at least being able to opt out now that he's being denied the right to choose.

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Tbh, so are you though. If you're in my way in line, can I execute you? Sure you can think but what's the point. What does your self awareness mean for literally anyone else?

OK the cells that carry signals in the brain aren't there yet but they're also just a lump of cells. Vegans don't eat mollusks. Biologically, it's still a human. It's not a fuckin donkey is it? It's replicating using human DNA, inside a human, on its way to being self sufficient as a human. Which it won't be for around 18 years.

I'm pro choice though. I just think the cluster of cells is a bad argument. It takes the same reasoning as the religious argument and takes away the source of the reasoning. I'm a cluster of cells. You're a cluster of cells. We have electrical and chemical activity in our brains that make up consciousness. Sometimes they go wrong. Depression, schizophrenia so on and so on. There's nothing magical about it. There's deformities there much like physical deformities and plants have deformities. Religious people think they're special because omnipresent creator of the universe tells them they're special. If that's true that makes sense. Why are you special? What makes you or me more special than a rock? I mean people send other people down into mines for shiny rocks all the time full well knowing they might not come back. If you're a woman in your 70s in America, there's a 96% chance you've worn a shiny stone before.

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As unfun as it is, murdering another human is not moral. Obviously things like ectopic pregnancies weigh one life against another, but two wrongs don't make a right.

Additionally, it wouldn't work legally to say argue that rape would be an exception because that would encourage women who wish to have an abortion to make false claims of rape.

Obviously this is a nuanced argument, but it follows the same vein as this argument: If someone killed my mother, am I morally justified to kill their mom? Western law unanimously says no, and so does any ethical discussion.

The reason for this is that just because a bad thing happens to you, doesn't mean you have a right to enact vengeance on a 3rd party.

I do want to also take an aside here. Rape babies aren't the average aborted child. [Even teen pregnancies aren't the majority. By far most abortions come from long-term couples who are going to have a disabled child or simply don't want another child due to financial constraints] (https://www.guttmacher.org/report/characteristics-us-abortion-patients-2014#). So, while going for the exception seems like a tantalizing argument, the reality is that most abortions have nothing to do with anything other than personal interest, or selfishness. Rape related abortions are so exceedingly rare that it's not worth discussing it when the vast majority of abortions are performed under completely different circumstances.

[–]grissomza1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Eruptflail1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

So you whole heartedly support the state forcing women to carry a rape baby to term?

No. The state cannot force anyone to do that. If that person chooses to perform or induce an abortion on their own, then legally and morally they should be tried for murder. It is double homicide in every western country to kill a pregnant woman.

You whole heartedly support the state forcing women to carry infants with abnormalities incompatible with life to tern?

If a child isn't going to live postpartem, then there is no reason not to abort. At that point it's not an ethical question. It's a question of utility.

You admit that ectopic pregnancy should be aborted?

Of course. Neither the child nor the mother can survive an ectopic pregnancy.

You claim your morality is objectively true, and out of turn refuse to consider anything else?

I believe that morality is logical and can be arrived at logically. If most humans changed their tune in murder, it would be moral. I do, however, think that because this is not going to happen that morality is one of the few things that we can derive truth from. However, it is incorrect to suggest that every situation is the same and should be treated the same.

A simple yes or no for each will do fine.

No it won't. The world isn't black and white.

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is comparable to the personhood of a sperm or an egg. A zygote is in every possible sense just as alive as an egg or sperm, and it has just as much capacity (maybe less than a sperm) to do anything related to personhood.

This is just patently untrue and belies a misunderstanding of how difficult conception actually is.

And then what about zygotes that don't imbed or ectopic pregnancies, should we as a society be doing more to catch those and turn them into viable pregnancies?

Considering that many people would love to not have things like miscarriages and entopic pregnancies and would love for them to be viable, then yes. If we had the technology to do so, we absolutely should. However, the true argument I believe that you're presenting here is the following: Isn't it immoral that these pregnancies are aborted (entopic) or are lost (miscarriage). This is a non-sequitur because one does not say that an accident that causes death is immoral after birth. For example, an infant dying of SIDS isn't deemed immoral. The same would apply to any other accident, whether it applies to an adult or a fetus.

Do you have a second day 3 months after your birthday to celebrate your actual age?

This is a non-sequitur. Socially created events don't necessarily indicate veracity.

[–]StevenC441 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It's actually 100% true that sperms, eggs and zygotes have as many attributes of a person as each other, and as you're arguing for the personhood of a zygote you really need to convince people otherwise instead of stating it. I will happily accept that at some point later when enough limbs and organs are developed that you probably shouldn't have an abortion, but you're being absolutist about this.

There are several instances in which accidents causing death would be criminal offences. And if one knew of a hostile uterus and continued to have unprotected sex it is very simple to make the argument for conspiracy to murder. (If you believe a zygote is a person).

The point I was making is that, by your insistence of personhood and infanticide, people who engage in unprotected sex should probably walk around with a petri dish between their legs just in case the egg takes a wrong turn, or have constant scans to react quickly to ectopic pregnancies.

It's not a no sequitur, because the discussion is entirely about socially created norms of when something becomes a person. There is no objective scientific test for personhood or humanity; if there was the world would have way fewer moralistic questions. It doesn't matter if you celebrate it, but you should believe that the day you were conceived is your actual birthday, everyone else is wrong and your expulsion from a uterus was some other unrelated event more in line with your first pubic hair.

The larger point here is that comparing abortion to infanticide is naive because most children who are born have a variety of characteristics the anyone would recognise as human, whereas all zygotes are a ball of nothing that you have to jump through hoops to empathise with. Because a zygote is not a person, obviously.

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Not that it relates in any way to this, but I was born 11 weeks early in 1973. I weighed 2lbs 7 oz and dropped down to 1lb 15oz. Stayed in the hospital for months after i was born.

But heres the funny part why I wasted everyone's time reading this. They were about to release me on a Friday but my moms sister was getting married a few hundred miles away (Boston to NJ) that weekend, so my mom asked if the hospital could keep me over the weekend 😂.

Disclaimer- my mom was and still is one if the best mothers in the world to me, and always Ioved and sacrificed for my welfare. When she was 12, her mom had a major stroke which left her incapacitated and their dad died several years earlier. My mom, despite being 12 wasn't the oldest, but was left with being responsible for the house and keeping the other kids safe (2 boys around 14-18, 2 other girls ranging from like 4- 8).

Come to find out decades later, the boys strong armed my mom and her sisters into relinquishing ownership if the house so they go none of the equity, despite my mom being the one forced to be not only an adult, but essentially a parent at such a young age. The boys have never been in my iife as uncles. Needless to say I want nothing to do with them, but my mom still lives them. Not looking forward to seeing them for the first time in almost 40 years when we go back there in the spring to visit and show my son where I grew up. No.. actually that's wrong. They came out for my wedding in 2004, but I barely said more than 'hi' to them because it was so hectic

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Because women. That’s why.

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Alimony =/= child support. State dependent, alimony is paid to the now ex spouse that doesn’t make money or as much money, it generally needs to be a noticeable difference for them to grant it. You will mostly see a higher percentage of woman to get awarded alimony than men, but that is because historically speaking, women were the ones that stayed home for kids while the husband was the bread winner.

Child support is separate from Alimony. Generally, again state dependent, if you are married the husband is presumed the father. If the husband feels like he isn’t the father, there would need to be tests that need to be done in order to get the obligations uplifted.

There are cases out there that the husband finds out that a kid is not theirs after a period of time that the husband has established a relationship with the child (thinking the kid was theirs) finding out they are actually not. It’s very unfortunate that some judges will still order the husband to pay because they have played that role. And I believe there is very limited ways of getting out of it, like finding the actual father and getting tests done. I don’t know too much on how to get out of it.

If you aren’t married, and you feel like you aren’t the father, obviously don’t sign the birth certificate (although I believe you can still get out of it if you are but you will have to find a good lawyer and do all the tests). She will have to go through the process of filling for child support and you will likely have to get a lawyer (always a good idea) and do all the paternity tests. But if you end up being the father, you will have to pay child support.

At the end of the day, you will likely need a lawyer to help through it. Would rather pay $5000 (idk the amount, it’s a big number I’m sure for the time being) than 18 years of child support for a kid that isn’t mine.

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Feminist here. I believe in gender equality, as do all of the feminists I know in real life (lots of men and women). Twitter feminists are not a good representation of actual feminists--they're just the loud, obnoxious ones. Most men and women who work in Hollywood are feminists, and I definitely wouldn't call them all hateful. Dramatic maybe, but not hateful.

The fact that guys have to pay child support for kids they never wanted is not the fault of feminists at all. It predates feminism. The issue is that the government reeeeeeally doesn't want to get stuck with the bill for this new kid, so they are highly incentivized to force parents to pay child support. Half the government also doesn't want women to have abortions, or birth control, so if the supreme court goes the way it seems like it will, more women will be having kids nobody wants, and more parents will be stuck paying child support for kids that they have no relationship with.

So to eliminate the need for men to pay child support for kids they never wanted, you'll need to 1) lobby for a better social safety net, and 2) while you're at, maybe ask for better sex ed and free birth control too. Many feminists are already fighting for these things.

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You know you can’t have sex without the risk of getting pregnant

Right. I was expecting this to be said and I have two things to say about it:

1) You know you can’t go to a party without the risk of getting raped, that doesn’t mean you sign an implicit contract and give away your right to not be raped. In the same vein, having sex doesn’t give away your right to bodily autonomy, just because there’s a risk of an intrusive fetus growing in your body

You can say this is a false equivalency. Maybe it is, so here’s my real argument:

2) Humans are hard-wired to have sex. Rational control over sexual urges requires discipline and mental resources; it’s not free. You can’t just say “don’t have sex” because it’s not that easy.

The unwanted pregnancies that matter are the ones where the parents can’t really support infancy. If you’ve ever been struggling for a period of time you probably know that your rational faculties aren’t as sharp.

Unwanted pregnancies are a problem, and putting your hands up and just saying “well don’t have sex” is just a really shitty solution to the problem: it just doesn’t work.

People who are struggling often times don’t have the rational faculties to control their sexual urges, and as a result have unwanted children that are a net drain on society.

Anyway, at the end of the day I think the “implicit contract” argument is just a poor way to rationalize that the fetus has more rights than it actually does.

[–]WorldRecordHolder82 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I don't really care either way.

Abortion is one of those topics where I can't honestly decide I think it's shitty to deny people from having sex but to abort as well.

The arguments against defending the practice of sex are much weaker in my eyes than the ones defending body autonomy.

There's a reason why rape victims that become pregnant are a much easier case to accept.

A lot of things are biologically driven. It doesn't make them a right if it involves other people.

I'm not trying to propose solutions btw. I think that's something that requires a lot of effort and expertise to come up with. I do like to discuss the morality of the question though.

In the end it all comes down to the conditions of the contract that is sex. It seems that nowadays it's a bit torn through the whole society .

And I the end it depends on the community and the parents. It's probably one thing that both parents should agree on before having sex.

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Pulling out of their driveway is 100% effective

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You probably didn't even understand my example, since yours was ridiculously not similar.

You ran the risk of having a baby you should deal with the consequences. You were selfish in convincing a child you did not want.

"my body my choice" goes both ways, you don't get to cherry pick how you want it.

If a wommen's body and what she does with it is entirely her choice, having sex with a man is entirely her choice, you have to decide if women has complete control over their body and what they do with it, or not, you're not babies we need to follow around and ask if you took your pills, I mean it's your body, your choice right? Why is the man the one risking anything since it's not at all his choice?

Then do whatever you want with your body, and assume the responsibility alone, if you want a man to assume responsibility for what so with your body, he gets a say if you keep the baby or not, and if you decide to keep it or not, he can decide also decide to pay for it or not.

You were selfish in convincing a child you did not want.

First of all, it's conceiving, second of all, how come it's only the man who is "selfish" for conceiving a child, when birth control comes in both forms? Are you guys babies with no will, or are you adults, decide, you don't get to have it all.

[–]martinblack89-2 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Human-Extinction5 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

If you don't want to be financially responsible for a child do not have sex. You have risked it, you need to be responsible for it. If you cannot explicitly trust your partner not to get pregnant, and you do not want children, do not have sex.

Goes both ways.

You cannot force a woman to have a baby against her wishes. If you want a child find someone who wants a child also.

Goes both ways, you can't force a man to pay for your SOLE and ONE SIDED decision.

Why are you saying "you"? I'm not a woman.

The actual women in this thread agree with us, figures you're some SWJ simp with no own will, did she tell you to say this word by word? You don't actually respect women, you put them on a pedestal that both looks down on them, and treats them like god, they are adults who can decide for themselves and their bodes and their finances, we are adults too, time to make the law catch up. Women actually CAN decide if they want to have sex or not unless it is rape, then the man should be buried in prison if proven right. Other than that, she should assume her choices.

[–]martinblack89-1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Human-Extinction4 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

It's not a sole decision you had sex you risked having a baby, that entirely the purpose of having sex. The man's decision was made when he's agreed to have sex. He has ran that risk and decided having sex is worth that risk.

Again, it goes both ways, women are not babies, they can decide too, if they want to have sex or not, why are you framing this as ONLY the man who decides to have sex?

I have actually argued your side of the conversation with my partner, that men should have more of a say in the termination of a baby, but I cannot imagine being forced by someone else to have to carry a child.

That's not the argument you child brain, the argument is that if a women gets to decided if she wants to keep a baby or not, the man can decide if he wants to pay for child support or not.

Again, women are not babies and you're treating them like babies with now will, maybe seek help if that's how you see women, but you're obviously a pussy whipped simp.

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Reminds me of this “deadbeat mom” who from the get go wanted an abortion but the FwB (I’m not sure their relationship was anything more) REALLY wanted baby and was SHOCKED when this woman didn’t instantly bond with the baby, whom she never wanted and that she signed over all her as soon as possible, even pays 125% of court ordered Child support and overall stayed true to her words. Now he is mad and burned out after 18months as a sInGlE PaReNt and wants to take her to court to force her to have visitation and take care of the child. Nope, can’t do when you coursed her into following through to get YOU a baby and wanted an abortion from the start. Dat baby is yours and ONLY his. Yea, it sucks that mostly it’s the women who choose if a fetus becomes a human and the man is stuck, but sometimes it happens the opposite way. It might be not too relevant to this exactly but was just reminded of it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/legaladvice/comments/5b79z4/nm_i_got_a_girl_pregnant_and_she_wanted_to_get_an/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

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If he didn't want a kid and clearly stated so before intercourse and refused to use protection, he's on the hook and should be.

If he didn't want a kid and clearly stated so before intercourse and used protection but it failed (very small %), he's on the hook but shouldn't be.

If he didn't want a kid and clearly stated so before intercourse and the woman's protection failed, he's on the hook but shouldn't be (and if abortion weren't demonized, most of them wouldn't be since a woman on BC is likely to not want children at the time either...).

If he didn't want a kid and clearly stated so before intercourse and the woman misled him about her using/having protection, he's on the hook but shouldn't be.

The solution for fairness is to fix those. Instead you want to take away the rights of women in a situation you yourself will never ever have to endure. Pregnancy can put a woman's life at risk, child support has no such effect on a man.

But it's equal to you because you care about money more than life or rights. Got it.

[–]ADamnDriver1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

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The irony is that this disconnect existed before feminism.

This thought process, that a woman must be cared for financially, is fundamentally patriarchal in nature.

So feminism is actually fighting against this shit by fighting its cause.

Most social concepts that fuck over males predate feminism and are the result of patriarchy.

Why do women usually get custody? Because women are "care givers."

Why do men usually pay more alimony? Because men are "bread winners".

All these concepts fucking over men are not the result of women's choices.

[–]sockmess 0 points1 point2 points 5 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

[–]WeAreAllAbsurd1 points 5 years ago [recovered] (1 child) | Copy Link

Could you point to an actual feminist publication with this position?

Maybe a study by a feminist academic?

Or are you equating twitter with feminism again?

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My mother is autistic dude. He married her to get into the country and then left her when it got too hard. But I guess it’s completely her fault for being manipulated. This is what I’m talking about, y’all think every woman’s story is the same, context fucking matters. You can’t lump every situation where a woman has a child and needs help together and say it’s the same. I completely agree that if two people have a child and the woman says “you know what? I want to be a mom and keep the child” if the guy says “no, not for me”, then There should be some documents that he can sign to relive him of the responsibility. You would be surprised about how many women would actually be cool with that, but you have to understand that not every single situation where two people have to make a decision about a child is the same. It always seems like people in this sub just latch onto anything that can prove “all women are evil” and leave it at that. You just ignore the idea that relationships and having a child might be a complicated issues that isn’t going to be solved by a bunch of teenage boys on Reddit.

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Well if the guy is still in the woman life having it done then in my opinion it is all his business case he had a say so in not only making the little life should have a well say so in the decision of rather he can at lest try life out before the mom and dad make a decision to say well we had a good time but not waniting this reasonable that sweet little baby that has no say so at all. The cause the two people in that situation then he souks pay for the hole thing it just might teach him how rap that little thing that made the baby cost his pockit for not having a resoalbety in a adults play ground are reasonable and will to not only have a good time that special dat but are ready tobe respoalblety to raise the little one or ar ha e the idea of adoptions.

Now if i could just take A moment to say sinething that should have been in alot of people who think its ok to say if a life that dosen't have a chance 2 gave a say so... if you are one of them people that are i cant take care of a baby at this time in my life... well then you should be able to be responsible with the deed of making that baby or just go home and do j7st what you did every day sice the age of 13, and when yiu are ready to be responsible then you have reach a point where we real adults are at or already did in life....

So abortion should be uo there with simeone taking a life of any personnon this earth cause yall sick fucking people like to do or wgere yhe ones that used that head God gave you an came uo with well i do this to woman the is pregnant and dosent waint that responsible well have a way out.... So dont be made when you are at the gates of Gods Gods resting place for us all hwce planes to be there.. Guess what when God say to you nice try but u need the down stars department when the red baster say welcome home you puppit of mine and a qast of God work well hope ur stay us nice and hot puppit

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Everyone who upvoted this should be ashamed.

First, it wouldn’t be 100% his financial responsibility. The amount of alimony paid by the absent parent is based primarily on his or her means. Single fathers are entitled to alimony if they become the sole custodian of their child, just as mothers are.

Second, this is an absurd, bizarre comparison. What is the implication here? That the father should have equal legal say in the mother’s decision to abort a fetus? Men aren’t entitled to that decision because men don’t get pregnant. The fetus isn’t in their body. Comparing alimony to abortion is beyond just apples and oranges; it’s completely nonsensical.

I thought this subreddit was about funny videos/stories of women being denied special treatment based on their sex? All I see here is a sexist, ignorant gotcha-tweet and a comments section of neckbeards celebrating their shared contempt for women.

edit: sub out "alimony" for "child supprt." Another commenter noticed that I'm mixing up the two.

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I get the post isn't about paying for the procedure, but I'll add my story to that.

I paid for 2, it was assumed I would. I did because I thought I was supposed to. The one I didn't pay for, well that was done behind my back. Her mother paid for a 2nd trimester when I was prepping to be a father. It was then presented to me as a miscarriage.

I only found out the truth years later when one of her friends let it slip, cuz she thought I knew the truth already. That stung.

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[–]simplenoodlemoisture1 points 5 years ago [recovered] (2 children) | Copy Link

Negative. We broke up shortly thereafter because she and her mother felt she would have a better future w her ex (a marine boot) over a construction worker.

He is dead from overdose now, and I am a Project Superintendent doing well. Still no kids, don't even want one at this point. I do have a dope ass old cat named Bella though, much easier!

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Your argument can be summarized as the following:

A woman can have sex and, if she is to end up with a baby she doesn’t want, she is allowed to have an abortion to dispose of the disturbance.

A man can have sex and, if he is to end up with a baby he doesn’t want, he is still obligated to pay to support this child for eighteen years of his life.

Do you see how lopsided this is? It’s not a matter of the woman having the baby inside her for nine months—by your logic, that doesn’t even matter because she can have an abortion anyway.

The problem is when the father of the baby is legally obligated to pay eighteen years of child support for a baby he never asked for.

That last line applies equally to both sexes. In that case, we should just get rid of abortion entirely, because not having sex is the optimal solution. No more debate about abortion if there’s no reason to have abortion.

I’m not arguing for or against anything here, really. I’m simply pointing out the disparity in obligation to a child when one doesn’t want one. The woman can just get rid of it. The man can’t, because then it’s murder, despite a life being snuffed out in both cases.

Obviously, there are other concerns when it comes to abortion, but it’s clear that we’re both assuming the baby was conceived as a result of consensual sex between two parties.

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[–]Lordarshyn8 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]bli8blu-1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Biology is not fair. I don't understand this quest for equal rights when the stakes are so different. When a person decides to engage in any sexual activity, they decide to accept the risk of a possible pregnancy. It's sort of the reason why we encourage teenagers to wait. And why we actually started having complex and varied sexual lives after a more or less varied array of means to prevent pregnancy became available.

For the male partner, that risk is financial and emotional. For the female partner, it's physical, emotional, and eventually of course financial. An abortion is not an easy decision. Neither is raising a child. But, ultimately, it's her body which pays the price of both decisions. In one outcome, also her wallet. In one outcome, also her emotional wellbeing.

I understand how leaving the final choice to the mother might feel unfair. Unfortunately, so is biology. I am confused at how much resentment a simple matter of you contributed to creating a problem, you have to contribute to taking care of it creates so much resentment. Pregnancy is the entire reason why we even have sexual urges. We have the knowledge to prevent it. Sometimes nature wins, due to bad luck or stupidity most of the time. But expecting an abortion because you don't want to accept a possible outcome seems a bit extreme.

I am not even sure how it came to be. I mean, how does it not feel entitled to say: "I want to call myself out of this problem, because the solution I propose with no consequences for me is the best". How can you ethically justify it?

You are saying to a person you shared a (however meaningless) connection with: "you either take the physical and emotional burden of an abortion or you take the physical, emotional, and financial burden of a pregnancy. Either way, it's your choice, I don't want to be involved. I want the privileged to call myself out of this problem I helped creating."

It seems so unbelievably childish to me, I would expect it from my 3 year old as we argue who should clean the juice she spilled on the floor.

[–]Lordarshyn2 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Do you think there is no emotional impact for a man, if a woman decides to abort a baby that he wants to have?

I had a friend who went into a deep depression and tried to kill himself over his girlfriend making that decision.

So if you want to argue that there are consequences for women who choose to abort, those consequences also effect the men.

And I'm not saying men should be able to force her to have the baby either. I'm actually pro-choice.

Her body, her choice. My wallet, my choice.

Exceptions being if you already committed to raising the child.

The fair option, is during that window when she is able to make the decision whether or not to have the baby, the man should have the decision to opt out. If he decides not to, he has decided to take an equal part of raising that baby and will be responsible for that for the next 18 years, regardless if he changes his mind later.

[–]bli8blu1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]Lordarshyn2 points 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

[–]bli8blu1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

Your power as a man ends sooner. You can choose a partner. You can choose contraception. Only because you can have sex with anyone, it doesn't mean that you should.

It's unfortunate that biology affords women that choice. I can understand how that might seem unfair. It's the reason why marriage has played such a role in human history. To deal with the need for procreation and caring for the offspring. Unfortunately you cannot have the freer sex lives we are enjoying nowadays, without leaving yourself opened to such risks.

That being said, your solution is entitled because it either imposes a emotional and physical burden on someone else, or a financial one on top. I can understand how for a man an unwanted abortion can be devastation. But a forced pregnancy and labour are not a walk in the park either. I understand how having to pay for (your share) of raising a child can seem like an unfair burden. It's sadly the price men pay for enjoying a society in which casual sex is allowed.

[–]Lordarshyn1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

See, I don't think the man should have a say in the abortion. Even if it's emotionally traumatizing for him. I DO believe in "her body, her choice." She has to go through with the pregnancy and all that comes with it. It's her choice.

So the "opt out" period is my compromise. And I think it should only be during that period where she can decide whether she's going to have an abortion or not, because that may play a role in her decision on whether or not to have one. It's the most fair way to handle it in an inherently "unfair" situation.

In my compromise, if the man decides not to opt out, he's responsible for raising that child. Through child support payments if he bails. There is no going back. You're in it for the long haul. You're contributing to the raising of the baby. Right now that choice lies in the woman's hands.

Since he can't choose to have the abortion though, he should be able to choose to opt out entirely. It needs to be during that window because that will make a difference on the woman's decision.

Maybe she'd only want to have the baby if he's going to support it? That would be a part of her decision making process. Which remains her decision to make. It is a compromise because the woman shouldn't hold absolutely ALL of the power over the man in this situation, but the man has NO say in what she does with her body.

[–]bli8blu1 point 5 years ago [recovered] | Copy Link

I genuinely do see your point. The problem is that things are not always so simple, nor fair. I some cases a pregnancy might be discovered too late. In other cases a refusal of financial contribution on the father's part might be the reason behind an abortion. It is a complex problem, and the reason why humanity shackled itself with monogamy and marriage for so long, because the alternatives are complex and emotionally difficult. If you give more choice to men after fertilization occurred, you inevitably end up giving them a choice on someone else's body. This is why the only choice is being really discerning in partner choice and contraception, on both sides.

The burden of choice lays more with the woman because, financial commitment being equal, she is the one who deals with the biological aspects of it. I genuinely understand how the absence of choice subsequent to fertilization can feel deeply unfair. On my part, I always made it clear to sexual partners that, while being pro choice, I didn't think I would have had the stomach for an abortion. And that, while I had a reliable contraceptive, and we would be using a condom, it was their choice if they wanted to risk it. The problem never arose, but I felt it was only fair to make things clear before anything happened...

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"...there are decent benefits for single parents..."

 There should be more of those benefits here in America. Single mothers SHOULD receive benefits from the government. And I have no issue donating to them directly until then. Although they do receive government housing and assistance in my state. Which I am proud to pay for via taxes. Single mothers have my respect. As for your second statement, that was an inaccurate personal attack. Therefor I will disregard it.

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Comments

The Bible

Title	Big Facts.
Author	zakariya_sharf
Upvotes	14768
Comments	1360
Date	October 4, 2020 8:20 AM UTC (5 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PussyPassDenied
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/pussypassdenied/comments/j4vivt/big_facts/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PussyPassDenied/big-facts.1068373 https://theredarchive.com/post/1068373