Fathers work harder overall than mothers on average.

gozzff · 2023-04-13T18:20:32+00:00

Fathers work 61 hours, mothers work 57 hours per week on average. This statistic includes paid work, housework and child care. This is contrary to the...

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I wouldn't say 2 minutes but yes I think you can manage.

Being a house maker can be draining in so many ways, and just because it's not manly doesn't mean it's easy, specially the daily grinding routine. Can get heavy.

Being a man I was always taught to shut up and deliver success on the first try or keep trying until you do, and above all shut the fuck up about your feelings, results mf.

I've found that some women just don't think things through specially those things they deem inferior or boring, then they suffer when they find out the full scope of their choices.

Tipical example, cheating because they where horny and then begging forgiveness. Sooo many stories.

Planning their wedding sure they know exactly how everything is supposed to go down to the exact hue of the buttons in the groom's attire. But wanting to work and deal with the bs of a regular shitty job and manage life hell no.

If they can't afford what they wantq it's the hubby the one who must make more! Budgeting? Gtfooh!.

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[–]MistyMaisel 23 points24 points25 points 3 years ago (96 children) | Copy Link

I couldn't find the Pew survey to see what they asked, which there's quite a few questions I would have about. The fact it is a survey suggests it is self-reported which throws everything down pretty badly on all counts.

In my experience of men the issue is that they often take even longer to complete those tasks so that the work being done doesn't really contribute like it should. Per example, it takes me half an hour to put dinner on the table for my family, it takes my brothers around 2 hours and they need help from someone else. If they listed 8 hours of domestic labor, they're saying they cooked dinner 4 times. If I list 14 hours of domestic labor, it means I cooked dinner 28 times and that's not counting helping them with their dinners. If I concluded from this that I'm doing more work than them for the household, it would be very true. Especially since they'll refuse to cook if they don't have the exact items necessary, won't come up with other ideas. I bought my items or I threw something good together with what was on hand. And, I think this is often the case when it comes especially to domestic chores. Men complete far less work in that time and often need help to get their chores done. Which again, is why it makes sense women are complaining about the difference here.

I think it's similar in child-care. Most of the child-care I've ever seen men do was the fun stuff. Playing games, reading books, going for walks, sitting and watching tv with them. It's a lot more rare for that work to be the gross and irritating shit like giving baths, diaper changes, putting them to bed, going to doctors, talking to teachers, doing homework, etc. Again, this is fine, but it does often reveal why women will say you aren't doing anything, because they kind of aren't. They're having the fun part of parenthood entirely and none of the gross grunt work.

With that said, the claim is usually that women make just as much as their husbands and work just as hard. That is not to say that the hours are required to be the same. They go to work, just like their husbands do. It's not a surprise given the career paths men choose over women that they work more hours to achieve the same ends as we do in far fewer hours especially given educational level differences.

With that said...this table is showing that women do more than twice as much housework and almost twice as much child-care as men. Which completely fits with what women have been saying and this pew research proves out.

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The facts on the ground here are muddy. By no means do I think this one study is definitive. There are enough anecdotal complaints about men not pulling their weight that it is worth investigating seriously. Even if it proves to be the kind of exaggerated mass hysteria that women are occasionally prone to, the belief in this is real. And thus the impact on gender relations is real.

And even if the Second Shift complaint turns out to be at least somewhat exaggerated, there may well be elements of truth to it. As you point out, maybe a man and woman work equal total hours; but maybe it was also always assumed that his career came first. Perhaps she'd like him to work less at the office and more at home, either because she is not a 'natural mother' and childcare is not her bag, or because she loves HER career and would like to have more time to advance in it. This kind of situation would not show up in this study.

There is also the idea that many men list bullshit office socializing time as 'work hours'; many women doubt that a guy out of the home 70 hours a week is really WORKING 70 hours.

[–]MistyMaisel [score hidden] 3 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

We agree about your first paragraph. I might amend mass hysteria to people, but I do tend to agree maybe women are slightly more prone to it. With that said, I don't think this one is exaggerated. I see it all the time all around me. And I've experienced it in every relationship I've been in except the current one I'm in. And people can say that's my user error, but I've dated all kinds of guys.

Again, we agree. Shit, I suspect a lot of men want to work less hours at the office when they have kids, but don't feel allowed to ask for that or feel such intense pressure about money that they never even consider the option. Obviously, this one goes both ways. I think men can also benefit from redistributing and reconsider the labor on every front.

Oh for sure. I'm dating a guy that works like 60 hours a week, and he's maybe the only one I've ever known who actually works that entire time. All the others, like, look, I fuck around at work all the time, so I'm not casting stones, but let's not pretend you're in the coal mines here, bub.

And let's be fair, not all child-care is some intense thing. Especially when they're young, you've got your naps, them just sitting and drooling, etc.

This study just doesn't prove almost anything people here want it to.

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Where we might disagree is on how strong gender roles are on the average. I tend to think gender proclivities are fairly strong statistically. At the same time, however, individual variance can be great. So you always need to check with your partner and not assume things.

Thus, I do believe that most couples would be happier with the man doing more hours at the workplace and the woman with more domestic hours. However, the exact balance will vary greatly from couple to couple. Most women don't want to be SAHMs even if they could. And frankly, with modern conveniences, even if we had a replacement TFR, there isn't enough productive work for a capable woman to do at home full time with only two kids. Thus, geopolitical competition wouldn't allow a nation to do that--it would be a massive under-utilization of its labor force.

And while I do believe most men want to work more hours than their wives, I also agree that many would like more domestic time than their fathers had.

The ultimate issue is that we have yet to solve two problems for women: (1) if a woman works less than her husband, how do we ensure her weaker earning power doesn't give him so much financial leverage over her that he can abuse it. And (2) if a woman takes off time for childcare and wants more flexible working hours, how do we make sure this does not permanently ghettoize her career. For an employer, one employee working 40-60 hours a week is much more efficient than two working 20-30 each. And job competition can mean that even taking 3-4 years off out of a 40-year career when children are very young, plus needing more flexible hours when kids are still dependents, can actually put a woman much further behind in her career than the absolute time she has missed.

If we can solve these issues, I think you would see a lot more women wanting to be mothers.

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It's not really a sexist assumption. There's a cliche of men living in a pig pen as bachelors for a reason. There's a cliche of a woman fixing up a man's place to be nice for a reason. There's a cliche of men appreciating how nice women keep things for a reason. I'm not saying men must be this way, I'm saying a large majority are. You can't pretend something is clean because you pretended to clean and tidy.

Right...except we know women are working as well, we know kids are a 24 hour job and that both people chose to be parents, so it stands to reason that both people should be giving their kids equal attention and simply working together so both of them can do this and a job. And it stands to reason that keeping a house is a 24 hour gig as well. So both people should be involved with that as well. A job job typically goes 8-12 hours. Even if the woman is only working part-time, it does not stand to reason that child-care and housework should be exclusively her problem.

House chores rarely require strength to complete them or speed especially since they're generally a more delicate activity. I don't know why men's physical superiority would matter a bit here. Running a swiffer is not one of the trials of Hercules. Men aren't doing this stuff, let alone doing it better in so many cases.

And if we're wrong, have the fucking balls to put your balls where your mouth is and call us out on it. Or is your discipline and integrity so slight that a pussy hair dissolves it. If so, I must conclude you think men are even more pathetic than I do. And I think many men cannot load a dish-washer. But at least, I think they can say no to sex in order to secure a fair work-load.

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I think it's similar in child-care. Most of the child-care I've ever seen men do was the fun stuff. Playing games, reading books, going for walks, sitting and watching tv with them. It's a lot more rare for that work to be the gross and irritating shit like giving baths, diaper changes, putting them to bed, going to doctors, talking to teachers, doing homework,

I love how you assume that the ‚gross and irritating stuff’ is more important than leisure and sport.

It’s 10x more beneficial for the kid to spend some fun time with his parents outdoors than to have ironed clothes or a spotless apartment at home.

Women just love beig chore-martyrs. But a big part of the shit they do at home in pursuit of being perfect is completely redudnant like washing windows every other week or ironing the bedsheets (2 real life examples from my relationship history. The best part is that i still put in more hours doing actually important stuff like buying groceries and cooking).

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I think a better way to examine the data is seeing who is doing more hours of childcare/child-rearing.

If you work a desk job you are often mandated or given lunch breaks, bathroom breaks, smoke breaks.

If you are a parent you are on-call 24-7 as nurse, counselor, accountant, chef, comforter, tutor (doing advance math with your child after school while trying to also cook dinner and keep the second child occupied).

You are not guaranteed breaks, sometimes have to struggle to make two minutes to get to the bathroom. You don't have a "set schedule". Also if both people work a CNA is doing a lot more labor-intensive work than someone who is monitoring an IT help desk most of the year.

But these are all very specific to each couple's situation.

However, labor, healing from childbirth and nursing is incredibly difficult work that can take you out of the workforce for months and sometimes years if the couple can't afford childcare but I'm not convinced it's included in this.

That being said, when we see more jobs that have overtime (cops, construction, et cetera) being welcoming to women we see more parity in hours worked (see the UK where women now make up almost half of the police force).

[–]MistyMaisel [score hidden] 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

This isn't a question of what is good for kids is the thing. It's a question of how the parents involved feel. Most mothers end up as the unfun or bad parent in these cases because they're the ones doing the unfun or outright painful stuff with the kids while dad is taking them for ice-cream and being a play-mate. Many mothers resent being forced to have the gross and unfun labor while dad gets all the fun circus stuff. I was not commenting as if both are not necessary. I was saying the division of labor needs to be fair. Dad needs to change diapers, go to doctors, discipline, and sometimes make the kids do shit they don't want to rather than just being the cool ice cream play-time guy.

I never assumed that. I'm saying moms want both and dads should be doing both so that the division of fun and slime is equal.

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I'm sure this is real. I have no doubt prissy women exist. That's not the same as weaponized incompetence. Refusing to do a task is not the same as doing it so slowly and poorly that their doing it at all is not a help. Do I think some women probably manage to weaponize incompetence lifting or trash, sure, but I would not imagine it is nearly the rate of women who just flatly refuse to do it.

I'm also sure many women simply couldn't lift it. A lot of men are surprised by the strength differential in the way women are. I've had many male coworkers thinking I could move things that I really couldn't. I wanted to, anyone who knows me knows I think I can do everything myself. But a lot of heavy lifting is beyond my abilities. As for trash, I've done that provided again, it isn't too heavy. Again, I think a lot of young men really struggle to imagine what it is like to look at say a heavy wooden table and just know you cannot do it.

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The pew research study shows women are doing 6 more hours of cleaning, sir. Yes, that is an unequal distribution of housework. Now, you can argue that men do more work in total, which isn't impossible, but the housework is not fairly distributed.

And, beyond that, if a man only manages to take out the trash, cook one meal, and do the dishes in his time, while a woman does literally every other meal, every other task, and all of the shopping, even if the hours were fairly distributed, that would not mean the housework is fairly distributed.

It would mean the man is fucking incompetent in his time and tasks and that pointing at hours served is a scapegoat for how useless he is. Which is what is happening in a lot of these complaints. And all of the reasonable men here have agreed that's not a fair distribution of housework.

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False.

Infidelity Over half of all participants cited infidelity as a major reason for divorce and infidelity was the most often endorsed “final straw” reason. Infidelity is not a major focus in PREP, though the curriculum does address the importance of commitment, including protecting one’s relationship from attraction to others. Based on participants’ reports from this study, it may be that premarital programs could be improved by more directly addressing how to reduce the potential for extramarital involvement.

The above is of divorced couples.

In a 2003 study, Paul Amato and Denise Previti used data from the “Marital Instability Over the Life Course” project, which is based on a national survey of men and women in 1980 and 1997.2 Those who divorced were asked, “What do you think caused the divorce?” The open-ended responses were coded into categories, with the top reasons for divorcing being:
Infidelity
Incompatibility
Drinking or drug use
Growing apart

The above is a comparison between two time points.

A study published in 2013 by Shelby Scott, Galena Rhoades, Scott Stanley, Elizabeth Allen, and Howard Markman used a multi-year, longitudinal sample of couples marrying who participated in premarital preparation between the years 1995 and 2001 through their religious organizations.4 After following this sample for many years, the team contacted those who had divorced and interviewed those who responded (52 respondents) about their reasons

Lack of commitment
Infidelity
Conflict/arguing

We can do a bunch more longitudinal studies following more married people over an even greater amount of time and it would still turn out the same. I don't know how much of your tax money you want to spend repeating the same study over and over again to get the same results but it's not like that's uncommon amongst men....

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https://www.romper.com/p/8-reasons-being-a-working-mom-is-still-harder-than-being-a-working-dad-74825

"According to Pew Research, a baby increases a mother’s total workload by 21 hours per week, while the father's workload is increased by only 12.5 hours per week. That is a staggering 70 percent increase in workload for women compared to men."

"Women now have less leisure time than they did 15 years ago, while men are taking more time for themselves.

That’s according to new data released by the Office for National Statistics in the UK this week, which shows that British men average five more hours of “leisure time” per week than women and still shoulder less of the unpaid work"

Statistics can go in either direction depending on the size of the pool, demographics such as age, income, area, religion, etc. These are also guesstimate questions as maybe mom's are more inclined to not include picking up the kids after school but dads are. There's another statistic in there that showed more dads thinking they spend enough time with their kids than moms even though they spend a fraction of the time mom's do with the kids. The numbers can be skewed so much with little effort.

There are lazy dads -many lazy dads. There's also a lot of Rockstar dads. I personally don't know many dads that do even close to 10 hours of housecleaning a week or mom's that only work part time but I may be in a different area than you so it could differ.

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So, the methodology of that study (had to boil down two articles to get the core study) and how they chose sample set is a big reason for the differences in working time vs studies on the broader society.

Flat out, they specifically chose a sample of men and women (those of higher income and education) who would not cut down their work hours during the transition to parenthood when most mothers have an urge and biological need (her body provide the child nourishment) to spend more time with child care. Hell, most of the women in the data set didn’t take full maternity leave! Within this sample set, women did not reduce their time with paid work close to what other studies show, that is the main difference between these deltas.

Like, we are mammals, men don’t have mammary glands to feed a child. This difference in childcare during infancy is biological and is recognized by most governments as being part of the human condition (the difference in time between paternity and maternity leave).

The study also does not follow this as the child moves out of infancy and into toddler, which child care in other studies is noted to equalize more (still with women taking on most).

I think a study of general population is more accurate really, as most people aren’t 2 income, highly educated, high earners.

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LOL that's hilarious. I think many women are definitely jaded buuuuut I've had a convo about communal needs and how women are mainly the ones to take care of that and how draining it is. I think little things that men do like not being able to see the coffee filters right in front of his face or not cleaning the toilet although it OBVIOUSLY needs to be cleaned is where this meme comes from.

I don't have kids, but I have to really consider how my bf m thinks before I get upset with him because he has a dumb boy brain and doesn't think the same as a woman who grew up more traditionally. Sometimes I think women take things men do as laziness but really they just don't see the need like a woman does. I'd like to see statistics about car and yard maintenance and how much more men clean the cars, mow the grass whatever cause I do almost all the housework (I have a lot more free time) but I could care less if my car has 30 miles left or if I have apple cores on my floor. Eventually I'll clean it and get gas but that shit drives my bf crazy.

Basically I think women and men value different things

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It's just the logical conclusion that must be reached from "dumb boy brain"...what competent adult woman wants a manchild as a life partner? Either a person is properly adult or they shouldn't be in a serious relationship that needs to be load bearing. Someone who has a "dumb boy brain" or "dumb girl brain" is always going to be the first and greatest part of the load their partner must carry. That not only doesn't leave room for kids (personally I think even for people who don't want kids, having a relationship that could handle a stress equivalent to kids if necessary is one of the tests of quality of relationship) it also doesn't leave room for a zillion other things some of which fate might spring on you randomly like serious illness, disability, recovering from a natural disaster etc.

If they've got dumb boy brains that you all the time have to be forgiving them for is it really a good situation to be in?

Also...think of what it does to the young and impressionable to hear their gender described in that way? Well I don't have to take responsibility for this list of things because I am a boy (or a girl) and that's just the way we are so there! It sets people up to demand being babied.

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If 14% vs 3% of your demographic is reporting zero hours outside the home work it could absolutely skew the total hours overall.

This is no "skew". Because what I am concerned with is the total hours overall. By the way, divorce splits money in favor of housewives with the dubious justification that women who stay at home and do all housework would be an equal contributing partner, that's obviously not the case as you can see yourself.

Also your post is claiming a 7% difference total hours work is a large gap between the genders, yet somehow 14% is minor error and somehow wouldn't matter?

Unfortunately, the world of mathematics doesn't work that way. The 14% of the stay at home mothers still do work, child care and housework. So you can't deduct the whole 14%. Say that stay at home mothers work 40 hours, then that would reduce the total number of working hours of women by only ~4%.

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One issue I have with this argument is how women seem to want to define homemaking and child-rearing as the same kind of "work" a man does when he goes to a shitty job and busts his ass to make money.

Personally I wouldn't consider spending time with and caring for my own family to be "work". I have some friends that I've spent a great deal of time helping, do you see me on the internet complaining that I was an unpaid therapist or furniture mover or dog walker? No, of course not, because I engaged in those tasks for social reasons not for monetary reasons.

If women are unhappy with the idea of being able to work less hours outside of the home in exchange for spending more time in their own house taking care of their own children, here's a wild idea: don't get married and have kids. The last thing we need in society is cold, soulless, unloving parents anyway. My mother busted her ass raising my brother and I yet she'd never consider it a burden or "work" the way these misanthropic weirdos on the internet do, it's deranged.

[–]IWillKeepYourSecret[🍰] 9 points10 points11 points 3 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

Most mothers don't say it, but it's absolutely normal to consider childcare a burden from time to time. Much of the work goes unnoticed and unappreciated. Being an active parent is absolutely stressful, and unlike working a fulltime job out of the house, there is no moment where coming home feels like you can finally unwind for the day.

Looking back, I have come to realize my mother worked far harder than my father. My dad's work paid off at the end of every month, but my mother never got a dime for taking care of us. My dad could go fishing in the weekends; he had work outings to restaurants and events. My mom had to take me with her when she had to use the restroom because me and my brother couldn't be left alone for one second.

When her favorite show was on TV, she gave me a bowl of chips so I would stay quiet while she could have those 40 minutes. Sure, my dad "busted his ass" to get money, but at least he got money. My mom busted her ass without any weekend off, and her husband was the one who got rewarded.

And as I've talked to others about it, I've come to understand that this is normal. This is what it means to be a mother. It sounds like a fucking nightmare...

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I mean they need a lot more then 14 hours a week for the majority of the years they are children. Even just morning and bedtime routine on a weekday is more then that, then it’s running them around to clubs/activities, birthday parties/appointments, the whole weekend of hours that are clearly not accounted for.

And then you are ‘on standby’ 24/7 which is literally the exact same as ‘being on call’ which in most professions is paid because it’s both out of hours and CONSIDERED WORK. Your young kid gets sick you probably aren’t gonna even get any sleep, that’s a 24 hour parenting shift you are about to pull. Your kid has nightmares/sleep walks/doesn’t sleep/wakes early etc then you’ve got to be up to parent regardless of how sleep deprived you are.

You are also in charge of the emotional and mental labour- which again is almost always on moms. It’s remembering all the medical stuff (booking appointments, when vaccines are due, when check ups are due, taking time off work to take them), what they are doing at school (helping with homework, helping think of the projects, sourcing materials for projects, keeping track of their friends, keeping track of their teachers). 9/10 men I know in LTR rely on their wife for everything in this department (e.g. to buy the mother day card for their own mothers), let alone manage the children and everything that comes along with that.

^ this shit is harder and FAR more draining then most jobs AND it never stops, you never get time off, not for decades

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Passive childcare is still childcare, personally I think the most draining part, you don’t get credit but you still can’t relax and do what you want. I don’t think that’s counted here at all. And this is almost solely on women.

Agreed. Until you’ve experienced being the “default parent” for years on end, you can’t imagine how draining it can be.

My kids are 7 and 10 now so it’s not so bad, but I remember having a baby and a toddler and literally feeling like my body didn’t belong to me. You’re constantly nursing and both kids always want to be near you / touching you / held by you. And it’s sweet and you adore them but it can get overwhelming.

Ever seen a couple with young kids at a restaurant? Where dad is by himself on one side of the booth, enjoying his food and sipping a drink…while the mom has two little kids on her side practically on top of her?

It sounds like it’s no big deal but when it’s day after day for years on end it’s draining.

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Do you really think schools call dad first to get a sick/injured child when mom is around? Is dad the one taking time off work to take the kids to the doctors? Does he pick them up from school & take them home in the middle of his day at 3pm or making sure they made it in off the bus? Is he the one calling out & staying home for each cold/flu? Is the kid immediately calling dad rather than mom about his sister bullying him or taking his stuff? Is he taking the child also to any extracurriculars after school? Preparing food & managing food for the week/day? (Believe it or not, feeding a family requires planning and you can’t just wing it everyday or do takeout daily, you have to plan your groceries/meals/snacks out so you’re not overspending or eating unhealthily)

Barring the man being a single father or in very, very rare cases the SAHD- Men go to work for 8/9 hours, are barely interrupted and come home and sit down, eat, and play video games or watch TV. Maybe if he’s a good husband he’ll wash the dishes or help clean up, relieve mom for a bit so she can shower and deal with anything she hasn’t been able to do all day, maybe toss a load of laundry but that pales in comparison to the whole day of work around the home mom is usually doing. Contrary to what men believe, women aren’t sitting on the couch all day and are almost always the “default parent”

Default parent example: https://www.today.com/today/amp/rcna75353 Even when dad is “home” with kids and watching them, the kids still bother mom about their tablets being uncharged, and bother her while she’s at the store (for like 10 minutes)

Your moaning about how women dismiss “all the work fathers do” while blatantly dismissing all the work mothers do. Come back to this when you can leave your bias behind.

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You’re laying out a .01% scenario that

The man is the primary care taker (16%)

https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2014/06/05/growing-number-of-dads-home-with-the-kids/ - even noted here most of those fathers are SAHD because they can’t find work

Said primary care taker has a rare issue where the school can’t sort out their call list order.

You’re not laying this out in good faith or as a majority phenomenon that this is always the reason why women are the primary default parent. You’re laying this out as a rare scenario or as an attempt at a gotcha in defense to avoid “blaming men.” Which, if you were so worried about sexism and being equitable in this argument, you would not make a sexist claim in your last sentence that it is the female secretary’s fault because

All secretaries are obviously women, especially the one in particular making this mistake- a male would never make that mistake
Said secretary then has an additional bias towards men as well, and sexism towards men is the problem!

Do better, this is a rare & unfortunate scenario and not the gotcha you think it is, and a bad attempt at goal post shifting once again to “women bad, men did nothing wrong”

Also, you never even showed an example or evidence of this, for all i know its a comment in passing that someone theorized about something

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Do you really think schools call dad first to get a sick/injured child when mom is around? Is dad the one taking time off work to take the kids to the doctors? Does he pick them up from school & take them home in the middle of his day at 3pm or making sure they made it in off the bus? Is he the one calling out & staying home for each cold/flu? Is the kid immediately calling dad rather than mom about his sister bullying him or taking his stuff? Is he taking the child also to any extracurriculars after school? Preparing food & managing food for the week/day? (Believe it or not, feeding a family requires planning and you can’t just wing it everyday or do takeout daily, you have to plan your groceries/meals/snacks out so you’re not overspending or eating unhealthily)

I (and my friends) all do this, stop believing the old BS rhetoric women banged on about in the past, men do a lot nowadays.

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Title	Fathers work harder overall than mothers on average.
Author	gozzff
Upvotes	79
Comments	332
Date	April 13, 2023 6:20 PM UTC (3 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/12ky876/fathers_work_harder_overall_than_mothers_on/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/fathers-work-harder-overall-than-mothers-on.1214302 https://theredarchive.com/post/1214302

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