CMV : Muscle is cheap, and in 2023 women value genuinely rare immutable traits, such as height and face

huolap8 · 2023-09-28T13:13:02+00:00

Women report musucular men as more physically attractive, especially when it comes to short term relationships. Source

Honestly you can tell who works out and who doesn’t. Building visible muscle is not easy and anyone who’s been working out for a sufficiently long time will be able to tell you the difference in treatment from both men and women.

DopeAFjknotreally · 2023-09-28T12:59:36+00:00

I have an average face and am 5 10.

I’m also in killer shape. It makes all the difference.

Stop allowing one experience to dictate your entire perception of reality. Every woman is different. Some will value height more. Some will value muscle more. Some will value face more. Some will value something weird like dimples in the side of your head or some shit

I swear just focus on gaining confidence and improving in every way you can. Stop looking for reasons to not try

placeholder-123 · 2023-09-28T12:15:29+00:00

I think you just completely extrapolated from the offhanded comment of a single (as in, only one) woman about a single man.

AceOfSpadesGymBro · 2023-09-28T13:59:30+00:00

Holy overgeneralization Batman!

truth_seeker90 · 2023-09-28T15:49:21+00:00

Lol at thinking anyone can get muscle. It takes a lot of dedication and time to have visible results.

Most people are overweight!

bearsfan231 · 2023-09-28T14:01:26+00:00

Then why is everyone fat?

Safinated · 2023-09-28T15:29:48+00:00

Again, anecdotes and opinions are not automatically true

BoomTheBear86 · 2023-09-28T12:18:06+00:00

Honestly, muscles were never “in vogue”.

The idea they were has emerged somewhere from the redpill hyperbole machine and the “gym bro” culture. It didn’t come out of a woman’s mouth.

Women generally like a guy who is fit. That can mean a lot of things, but generally it means he isn’t very obese and carries himself well. He looks “proportionally good” for his height; not looking under or over weight.

This was interpreted by many guys as “getting jacked”. Only a minority of women really desire excessive muscles on a guy. They won’t kick it out of bed, but they don’t “need it”.

This is a myth that has been kept alive by fellas, they incorrectly think their general fitness level being attractive means their muscles did it, so they tell other guys to do it, and so on.

The thing is, nobody really stopped to think who was complimenting them in the gym on their bulk. On their gains, on their overall muscle journey. It was the gym Bros, not the women.

Women value the fitness derived from lifting, not the muscles. Men value the muscles. Muscles are more of a male power fantasy than a female one.

Woko127 · 2023-09-28T13:24:40+00:00

This is why you guys will always lose. You can't compete and you don't have an ounce of drive in your bodies. First of all, you don't get in great shape for women, you do it for yourself. I used to be fat and dropped about 30 kg in total. I can tell you first hand that the difference was massive, it actually took me a while to get used to all the attention and interest that I was getting from women.

Being in great shape will sculpt your face and maximise your looks but the person you become and the confidence that you can develop out of it is far more valuable.

Too many quitters on this sub complaining about why women don't want to babysit them.

1Here4Bach · 2023-09-28T12:42:22+00:00

If muscles were cheap most guys would be ripped.

SlowEffective8146 · 2023-09-28T13:54:29+00:00

All of the posts like these are just defeatist. To me it just comes off as justifying not exercising because "it doesn't matter anyways" when the stats prove that exercising increases everyone's attractiveness. You can only play the hand you were dealt, so what if you'll never be as hot as 6'4 chad? You can still be the hottest version of yourself.

Fusiontron · 2023-09-28T14:50:10+00:00

While it is clear that height and face matter more than body, body still matters. Yes, any guy can become fit, but most lack the discipline to do so. The rates of being overweight and/or obese continue to climb. Thus, it's an area where it's easy to stand out as a guy.

bifewova234 · 2023-09-28T16:11:44+00:00

Just another post eroding the male ego by communicating to men that they dont really have much of a chance by saying women have really high standards and are super selective. Men, dont listen to this stuff. You dont have to be amazing to be a winner. You only have to be better than the competition.

the_jingster · 2023-09-28T13:16:11+00:00

Muscles are an accessory- they can either harm or help your appearance depending on proportions, shape, etc.. but aside from that you can change your face by lifting heavy weights and changing bodyfat percentage

Hot-Law2682 · 2023-09-28T13:41:56+00:00

Muscle tone matters, but more muscle is not always better.

Generally women find features like broad shoulders and visible arm muscles to be attractive.

https://www.muscleandfitness.com/workouts/workout-tips/10-most-attractive-body-parts-ranked-women-2/#:~:text=As%20mentioned%20before%20in%20Perett's,and%20broad%20chests%20and%20shoulders.

However, the ideal body is not a bodybuilder or powerlifter but more like Brad Pitt from fight club, which is apparently the body type 70% of women preferred.

https://medium.com/illumination/the-most-desired-male-body-type-according-to-women-bb1019ea5261

The most accurate thing to say is that your physique matters, and that physique is influenced by both genetics and lifting. Working out will get you a better chest, arms and shoulders which will make you more attractive to women. However, there are many men who will never reach the ideal body type because of genetics (too short or small).

TammyMeatToy · 2023-09-28T15:44:35+00:00

Bro I think you read into her comment a little too far lol.

Acceptable-Truck3803 · 2023-09-28T14:23:19+00:00

You seem to forget the smoke in front of you. Women want a “natural”. Doesn’t workout too much, has great face symmetry, isn’t fat.

The ideal “man” for dating and hooking up physically have a V taper and their body fat + muscle definition is one of a soccer player. Ronaldo minus the face is seen as “godly.”

https://i0.wp.com/www.ghanacelebrities.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/abs_opt.jpg?resize=747%2C713

People automatically assume muscles and bodybuilding with jay cutler or Kai green. Some women love it, but most want what appears to be natural or fake natty.

Just seeing how someone’s face drastically changes from being at a healthy/fitness body fat level from slightly overweight/obese changes everything. It’s not the entire picture of a person as a “dating package” but it plays a part.

https://www.boredpanda.com/before-after-weight-loss-face-transformation/

TheIntrepid1k · 2023-09-28T17:30:46+00:00

"And other girls aren’t impressed with each others jacked boyfriends. Anyones boyfriend can become jacked. They can’t all become tall with a rectangular head and great teeth."

Thats what they think but the reality is that not everyone can get jacked. Trust me, ive been in the gym for over a decade and i've seen guys going just as long not get anywhere near what some other guys get to. Im one of the guys that got a lot out of the gym and i realize now not everyone has the genetics for good muscle growth.

I think this is one of the weird things that women dont get especially when it comes to athleticism and more importantly intelligence. Women dont get that intelligence is mostly genetic, same with athleticism. You cant just put a dumb kid in school and he will become very smart. Some girls know instinctually that intelligence is genetic and select for intelligent men but a lot of women dont know this and think it doesnt matter. Same goes with athleticism.

resultsmatter1 · 2023-09-28T17:41:10+00:00

If you think muscle is cheap you don’t have any

bruhminer · 2023-09-28T19:35:32+00:00

I've always said this, gymceling is the worst, looking like a roided up mutant is not attractive. Being lean and having muscle definition gives you the most return on investment. But yes height and face is more important.

gopher_glitz · 2023-09-28T20:13:13+00:00

I'm 6'3" and in great shape, my face is my weak point

themostgianthorse · 2023-09-29T04:34:10+00:00

What is this?

Muscle is not cheap. It requires a massive amount of planning and execution. This alone deserves some respect.

Ohmaygahh · 2023-09-28T14:44:46+00:00

I want to agree with you, but can't. I specifically know of a married psychologist who was living the basic ass white girl, kansas city lifestyle.

What her husband didn't know was that she was showing off her butthole on reddit, sending nudes on insta (for free), and allowing her personal fitness trainer at the local gym near the light district to fuck her in the ass ( I think she said it was the Genesis club? ) .

Despite not initially being a fit, or in the world, she was indeed attracted to muscles. As you can surmise, her husband was just a regular office drone, not in shape but also not obese either. Just a regular guy.

purplish_possum · 2023-09-28T14:55:18+00:00

Muscles are at least 80% genetic so like height and facial features they are inheritable. They're part of the "best genes" mix women have always been attracted to.

Men with good muscle genetics are at least as rare as men with good height genetics.

Men with both are very rare.

januaryphilosopher · 2023-09-28T15:10:07+00:00

Truly rare and valuable genetic traits like... tattoos and beards? I can already tell that you're thinking about a particular group of women with a specific type of you think liking tattoos and beards is anywhere near universal.

Able-Imagination3695 · 2023-09-28T16:12:35+00:00

I feel like so many of you are insistent on figuring out women's sexuality like some kind of rubik's cube because you've yet to truly come to terms with the fact that women are sexual and social creatures - aka people - with different tastes, standards and desires.

Toronto_Stud · 2023-09-28T14:11:36+00:00

Women want the best genes to pass on.

Fit, healthy, tall, and pretty is raw genetics, muscles are not.

Veloci-Tractor · 2023-09-28T14:46:20+00:00

yeah its men who like muscles lol. men get beefy for other men and for other mens approval.

look at /r/gregdoucette and tell me that's for the female gaze with a straight face

i dare you

Razieloo · 2023-09-28T12:16:10+00:00

Yeah of course girls who work out in gyms go for that kind of guy, what gives?

Next time go to the MET Gala and tell me what type of men are there

TSquaredRecovers · 2023-09-28T16:26:28+00:00

No, I’ve said it before, but the face reigns supreme.

I’m also not one who obsesses over a guy’s height too much. Like, I don’t have a “must be 6’ requirement.” My husband is 5’10” and that’s actually perfect for me. Sure, I wouldn’t want to date a man as short as maybe 5’5”, but as long as he’s a few inches taller than me, I’m cool with that.

An attractive face is the absolute most important physical feature, in my opinion. An in-shape body is just a bonus. As long as a guy isn’t seriously overweight or obese, I’m not too picky.

KittyMimi · 2023-09-28T18:39:41+00:00

You took a mean-spirited joke seriously. Wow.

Cat_Lover259 · 2023-09-28T19:10:46+00:00

Holy crap when will you all accept that people like hot people. Women are going to like a good face, manly height, and a manly beard. This really isn’t that hard to grasp. If you’re ugly, too fucking bad! Not all women are going to find you attractive. That’s how life is, deal with it and stop complaining.

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pop442 · 2023-09-28T13:13:59+00:00

Depends on what you mean by "muscle."

You see......even my slim ass who's 5'9 and 150 lbs has a relatively toned body with abs and a decent torso. But I'm not exactly someone who appears muscular at all on the surface level. I look slender and lanky.

Women generally love fit men over husky/chubby men but, often times, if you ask women to conjure up an image of a muscular man, they'll envision a Ronnie Coleman or roided up bodybuilder as opposed to someone like Henry Cavill or Michael B Jordan.

I think height is an important factor too but I also think that people naturally assume that tall men are fit even though many are not. There's many fat or husky tall guys who many women will find more intimidating than attractive.

Usually the type of tall guy who draws the most interest is a fit one or one with an NBA player/soccer player/track star type body which still requires a certain level of fitness.

But, just like with me, a lot of women think slender or skinny men don't have muscle and while there are malnourished skinny men in which that's the case, your average slender guy is actually fit or has a decent level of muscle.

Also, I disagree with the face thing. Faces matter but are more flexible if you're a guy. Simply rocking a stubble/facial hair and having good skin care will help in that department.

BrummieAMN19 · 2023-09-28T13:32:23+00:00

But it’s become very common, if not in real life then on social media women are seeing six packs constantly. It’s almost standard.

Not its not its super rare to actually see a guy that actually lifts let alone him having the V-Taper, thick neck+forearms and defined arms. This sounds like projection honestly of your social media usage than women's.

Most young men in the UK are either skinny-fat or anorexically skinny with really small frames its nonsensical that its super common for women to see. If they're older especially if you go up in the Midlands and North they're dad bod or fat as fuck. Being 70kg for example as a uni student will put you in the top 20% of men alone in frame and physique which says it all how puny the average young man is here.

Probably about 7-10% of men lift in the UK IMO and most of them don't know what they're doing in the gym, which is a main talking point from every fitness bro in this industry. I argue from experience that women work harder and get more tangible results than men. Most guys are skinny-fat in the gym IMO and spin their wheels from what I've seen.

Muscles have become dated

What makes you think that building muscle has no genetic component to it? You think the average man can become Ronnie Coleman just through hard work? How you work at a gym is beyond me lmao. And the beauty standard in this country is muscular, tats and a tan. Why do you think girls go oogly eyed over the 50th robot that comes out of Love Island?

Ok_Smile_60 · 2023-09-28T14:42:18+00:00

It’s not ignored, it helps, but yeah, other things matter too. Being in shape will definitely help you, and you need to be in shape. Trust me, you want to be able to easily move your wife around.

CryptoThroway8205 · 2023-09-28T15:40:10+00:00

An average-height guy will do better with muscles enough to take down an AC himself and a healthy body weight than one who's average height and obese.

MacaronFinancial · 2023-09-28T16:20:42+00:00

I don't necessarily disagree with you.

Muscles are a low hanging fruit that most fail to grasp though and they do wonders for your self-esteem regardless of whether you get female attention or not. They build resilience you need to deal with the various setbacks and hardships of life including your interactions with women that are mostly negative.

We don't know what the woman meant with her comment but judging by your text the guy was well built and she did not find it fully congruent. Basically it seems as if she was confirming that the guy indeed was in the possession of an imposing body that she would associate with heroic legends or romance novels even if she does not like the whole package (height, face). She or anyone else can laugh at heroic looking bodies of "ugly" men until the cows come home but they cannot deny the power of the body. Laughing at accomplishments and strength just makes you look nervous. If some black guy from Missisippi runs into some Chinese tourists and addresses them in perfect Chinese we can laugh at the black guy for not fitting our expectations of his life history but we cannot deny his power.

As far as the genetics thing, character is also tied to genetics as our brains are biological matter subject to hereditary laws. It may not make much difference in attraction as you cannot argue your way to a woman's affection but simply being tall does not ultimately go that far in real life. Being tall is like wearing your dad's suit as a kid; the suit symbolizes power but you have to live up to the suit and when you start walking it just looks funny on a kid.

In a similar vein anyone can be born tall owing to a lucky accident and that won't prevent them from being slovenly cowards who self-delete once they don't get their way in life for the first time or freeze up in a fight against someone half their height. You still have to live up to what your bone length is supposed to represent.

Aesthetically speaking muscles add tremendous detail and depth to a person's physique which height does not do. A tall man with no gym history is just a short guy stretched out vertically on Windows' MS Paint whereas a bodybuilder has more shapes his legs than a tall marathon runner has in his entire body. Women are supposed to be attracted to detail and contrasts especially in so far as they are the kind of things that rarely or never occur on women's bodies which adds to a masculine mystique. Personal taste is of course subject to variation but if a woman is attracted to men's forearms it would make sense for her to pay attention to the arms of a man who belongs to the minority of men who actually work their forearms properly.

You can even make the argument that most women are not attracted to big detailed muscles and still conclude that the argument is pretty weak. Most women arguably are not attracted to musicians even though famous musicians are famous for supposedly getting lots of play but I don't think most women will immediately talk about musical talent when you ask them to describe an attractive man. But there is a niche for musicians and if the man can advertise his musical ability then the women who are into that niche will come crawling out and seek out those relatively rare men who are musicians. As for the women who do not care either way? It should not hurt you either that many women don't care about music or muscles. It's still power that you carry that makes your life more fulfilling.

Finally one more reason why some women do not "like" muscular men is that they are not fully in tune of their feminity relative to masculinity and they cannot stand certain depictions of masculinity that they consider too raw or explicit. Women love to pretend that they are holier and somehow more profound than men in their bestial desires and they may find lankiness to be just subtle and androgynous enough for them to give it a green light since women can also grow extremely tall and there are women who are taller than many of the world's strongest men. So basically some women are just envious of masculine potential (strength, detailed physique and the associated courage) and some of them will even cope with such displays by going on rants about how the appendages of these men must be small and how that's all that matters (to her bloated self).

Shadowcat1606 · 2023-09-28T16:25:28+00:00

Have to disagree on the importance of muscles. As you said, that girl in the gym said he looks like a

Shadowcat1606 · 2023-09-28T16:31:08+00:00

Have to disagree on the importance of muscles. As you said, that girl in the gym said he looks like a guy wearing somebody else's body. That's not because she doesn't care about his muscles. She said that because the thing she's attracted to about him, his built, doesn't match the thing she finds unattractive about him, his height.

Muscles aren't dated. They are, as you say, somewhat 'commonplace' at least on social media and in other media, movies, etc. Ever big blockbuster star is jacked, a lot of influencers are as well. They see it as normal, a standard, as you put it. Definitely attractive, but common, basically a must-have at this point.. That's also why guys who aren't jacked are automatically seen as even less attractive then they might have been years ago, because they deviate from that (falsely) perceived new norm.

Mr_Chad_Thunderpenis · 2023-09-28T20:27:21+00:00

The most standard type of guy who seems to get attractive women are tall, tattooed and beard.

That was my experience in university as well. Tall, tattoos, beard, dark hair and the usual fuckboi haircut(buzzed on the sides with a fade and longer hair on top). Just like IG models have the "instagram look" and all look the same, the desirable guys all looked like that as well. And everyone was trying to imitate it lmao.

That being said, having a great physique is neither cheap nor common. I mean technically almost everyone can do it. But putting consistent effort and being disciplined with your training and nutrition for like 5+ years is not easy to do, less than 5% of guys actually do it. Also, low bodyfat can certainly improve how your face looks to some degree.

Generally I don't think most women prioritize muscles though. Maybe a few that are gym rats themselves, but that's about it.

itm4l2000 · 2023-09-28T21:11:33+00:00

Muscle is damn expensive. Doing consistent compound lifts at 75% 1 repetition max over years is only for the dedicated. Having a lean posterior, muscular posterior chain, broad shoulders and sizable glutes make a big difference.

The attraction is to some women is manifold. In a gym setting the women who have no chance with you don't orbit, the ones that think they have a chance orbit and the ones that approach you are physically your equivalent and in some cases culturally and intellectually > than the men they are approaching. The ones that approach know they are beauty, brains and class.

Cactus2711 · 2023-09-28T22:07:11+00:00

Agree I also work in a number of gyms and female members get the ‘ick’ from muscular men who aren’t tall. They purr after the handsome faced, tall, athletic looking men (above average muscle, wide shoulders)

bodhasattva · 2023-09-29T02:11:13+00:00

It aint the muscles. Super fit guys are often more confident

calfshrug · 2023-09-29T04:08:35+00:00

What about other largely predetermined traits?

I have high conscientiousness, high neuroticism, and extremely overactive mind, a sense of humor that could kill a horse (read this as you will), high testosterone, a mix of hippie, effeminate, straight conservative, intellectual, eclectic, and macho disposition, quick reflexes, and very good athletic prowess.

You’d think that women would not just seek physical bone structure, when all one has to do is look at your own family to see a good indicator of what one’s progeny will look like, ie, not beautiful.

And we must consider that the drive to mate with attractive guys is not going to be rewarded forever, is it?

With meta understanding as a popular trope nowadays - at what point will considering our appearances as just essentially a mask, pretty or plain, become popular? Like, fuck, why are you attractive? What did you do for that hot face bone, mate?

CountMandrake · 2023-09-29T04:37:43+00:00

Tall, VERY jacked, tatted, blue eyed dude here. With a beard. And a big dick. And rich.

Haha nah kiddin, I'm not rich.

The difference seems to be how much jacked you are, and what kind of jacked.

I'm 6.3' and 205 lbs ripped now, probably in the best shape of my life, and yes, it makes a massive impact.

I have a fast metabolysm so if I'm not dieting and dating a lot, my weight wears down a lot and really fast, and I can end up being 170-175 lbs and super ripped.

I'm never out of shape, and I always have a visible six pack, but I can get skinny-ripped, like a runner physique, and yeah, women do not like it neither.

Being 170 lbs and skinny ripped, or 240 lbs muscular but with 15-20% bodyfat it's basically equal to being 200 lbs and untrained with a dad bod.

Jacked, muscular 205 lbs with abs and a V-tapper is where the money is at.

How much of a difference?

Well, when I went skinny-ripped I updated the picks of my Tinder profile and went from 30-40 matches a week to 2-3 in a month.

After a year I started lifting hard and eating well, I hit the 200 lbs mark again, I take new picks, upload them and boom, 70 matches the first week.

I've done it countless times over the last year just to test dating apps, yes...

Everytime with the same fucking result. I upgrade my picks and the matches start coming up magically.

You see, being "a catch" IMO is not something that happens progresively as a dude.

You don't go from a 5 to a 6 when you had five inches from feet to head, and from 6 to 7 if you put done muscle, and from 7 to 8 if you have a nice face...

For women, it's like...

You are tall, jacked, good looking, big dick, tatts, good clothes, light eyes and some money, your a 10.

If you don't have all the things on the list you're a 5.

At least that's how it works with the girls I date. And specially on dating apps.

Dude, kid you not, dating apps are NOT broken, I tell guys this every time.

It's WOMEN who break the dating market.

sweetbrown89 · 2023-10-03T12:33:23+00:00

Muscles demonstrate effort

A guy who was born tall or handsome or with a big dick or into money is most of the time just going to coast by on things he did nothing to deserve

Some of us go for those, but some of us avoid the type of men who’ve never had to work for anything

Those guys are mostly going to be lazy and get fat and just let themselves go as they age…which isn’t my cup of tea

The ones who stay looking good are usually celebrities because they have an image to maintain and have the money to handle things

Title	CMV : Muscle is cheap, and in 2023 women value genuinely rare immutable traits, such as height and face
Author	Cjaylyle
Upvotes	66
Comments	249
Date	September 28, 2023 12:09 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/16ueasx/cmv_muscle_is_cheap_and_in_2023_women_value/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/cmv-muscle-is-cheap-and-in-2023-women-value.1233307 https://theredarchive.com/post/1233307

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