FEMINISM WEEKLY DISCUSSION THREAD

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[–]Fearless_Method_1682(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

[–]akaeanCuts herself shaving on Occam's razor 3 points4 points5 points 2 years ago* (2 children) | Copy Link

It is a question of practicality.

Without trying to write a novel, what it comes down to is this

Violent DV and Emotional DV are different problems, with physical abuse requiring more direct intervention and emotional abuse requiring a more holistic approach and generally access to mental health services.

When it comes to violent abuse, men are predominately the perpetrators. Something like 95% of serious violence and 90% of all violence. Yes, women can be violent, yes there can be violence in gay and lesbian relationships- but those numbers are very very small- as LGBTQ+ is a very small percentage of the population.

From a practical standpoint, an organization concerned with violent domestic abuse is looking at 95% of cases where people's lives are at risk being a male abuser. So it makes sense to focus on Male abusers and providing support to women who are also more likely to be victims of violent abuse. Because by the numbers that is going to have the largest net positive impact on society.

From a practical standpoint, the Duluth Model is trying to address violent domestic abuse, indeed it has a focus on battered women, battered being the operative word. As such it is focused on the man v woman dynamic, and indeed different models of and curriculum are used in cases of lesbian violence.

It is not intended to be a one stop shop for all abuse, but rather addresses one subset of abuse, notably violent physical abuse. Indeed, by the numbers if an organization is only concerned with "serious domestic violence," so that it can focus its limited resources on the people who absolutely need it most, it will be 95% focused on supporting women against male perpetrators, and 5% focused on male victims.

This is not to discount that male victims of physical domestic violence don't exist, but this is a bit rarer, and it makes sense that organizations aren't as focused on it.

What we really need, is enough money in social services to ensure that organizations have the resources to provide support to everyone, and don't have to make utilitarian decisions that can make people feel cold and invalidated.

[–]JohnGoodman_69Purple Pill Man 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

[–]akaeanCuts herself shaving on Occam's razor 4 points5 points6 points 2 years ago (0 children) | Copy Link

There is a lot of data available so we don't have to speculate on the numbers.

https://bjs.ojp.gov/content/pub/pdf/ndv0312.pdf

Women are significantly more battered overall than men are. Its unfortunate, but it is true.

Second, threat level is a very important societal distiction. We also see it in areas of self-defense. While this doesn't excuse women who are violent toward their significant other, we still need to take into consideration that failure to address man on woman physical abuse is more likely to result in serious injury or death. You'll also notice that the stats I listed are non-fatal DV. So keep that in mind as well.

So if our goal is to keep as many people people alive and protected from serious injury or death... yes we do need to take the capacity to inflict harm into account.

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Years ago my dad belonged to a men-only golf club. Literally just a bunch of old dudes drinking whiskey in between rounds of golf. Now and again, there'd be a bunch of women outside protesting that they weren't allowed to join.

This pattern was repeated up and down the land at male clubs, bars, colleges and so on. Why, if women fear men so much, would they be so determined to get into a private golf club full of MEN if they believed they would murder them at the first opportunity? If they wanted to play golf, there were other clubs they could join. They could even start their own women only club and men wouldn't care.

Eventually, of course, the club membership caved and voted to let women join. So now there's a bunch of women endangering themselves every time they enter that golf club when previously they were safe while the men were in it. If you feel unsafe around men, you can thank women like the above for ensuring that there are now far fewer places women can go to that don't have men in them.

[–]birthdaybutt 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

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[–]PodlubnyiNo Pill Man 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

I'm surprised you didn't know this, but people wanted these elite clubs for rich men taken down because they were for snobby old money nepo babies to do shady business/political deals and act like they were better than everyone else.

I'm surprised you didn't know this, but snobby old money nepo babies will continue to do shady business/political deals whether or not their golf club is men-only.

If you're curious, you can look up why "gentlemen's clubs" were disgusting and the public were against them.

Um, I'm talking about a golf club where they... played golf. No sex dungeons or illuminati in there. The public, as far as I'm aware, are not against golf clubs. Now, are you going to answer why women were so determined to gain access to male spaces if they live in mortal fear of men?

Not to mention they would often abuse women's services in them.

Evidence of this?

It's insane and terrifying how far men go to blame everyone but men for men's crime rate.

Um, please point out where I did this?

Zero accountability.

Do you take accountability for crimes committed by women? For instance, the fact that more women than men murder their own children?. Or the disturbing number of female teachers who sexually assault underage boys?

[–]katecardW Woman 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

Infinitely more men murder children, and men aren't even around children a fraction as much as women are. I can't even imagine how many men would murder their children if they gave birth to them and got stuck with them. Thank God women are the ones who give birth because we might go extinct if not.

12 year old boys alone have a higher rape rate than all women combined. And that's including regular sex between a girl and a guy a few years younger than her but underage. And it even includes underage males who use their dominance, physical advantage, and pressure to have sex with girls above 18.

Please tell me you knew more male teachers have relationships with students than female teachers. The female teacher thing became a meme because guys think it's hot. Factually, it's rare compared to the number of male teachers who do it.

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'The past was alterable. The past never had been altered. Oceania was at war with Eastasia. Oceania had always been at war with Eastasia.'

George Orwell, "1984".

"Gracious Creator of the whole human race! hast thou created such a being as woman, who can trace thy wisdom in thy works, and feel that thou alone art by thy nature, exalted above her--for no better purpose? Can she believe that she was only made to submit to man her equal; a being, who, like her, was sent into the world to acquire virtue?"

Mary Wollstonecraft, the first feminist.

"The rate of violence against males by strangers was 9.5 victimizations per 1,000 males in 2010 compared to 4.7 victimizations per 1,000 females. In 1993, the rate for males (56.9 violent victimizations per 1,000 males age 12 or older) was nearly three times the rate for females (19.6 per 1,000 females)."

Bureau of Justice Statistics, "Violent Victimization Committed by Strangers, 1993-2010"

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I have a lot of respect for radical feminism from a philosophical standpoint. Radfems ask a lot of important questions, and even if I don't agree with all of radfem's conclusions, the point of view and discussions brought up are extremely important to have.

Specifically, I think it is a purer movement than the lib fem wing, in that it seeks to challenge and question the fundamental building blocks of society itself. Like, it's important that women do question why we want the things that we want and whether those desires were planted by the patriarchal culture that we were born into or a genuine desire- like Kate Cohen's discussion on shaving. Being able to look inside and challenge our own wants and desires is an important question that is all too uncommon in pure lib fem circles.

I think it is unfortunate that radfem's legacy has been so tarred by its trans-exclusionary wing. The Gender Critical movement in general has caused a massive blow to the accessibility of radical feminism overall. Moreover, Gender Critical Rad Fem's association and even at times support of anti-feminists who themselves ally with conservative movements seeking to restrict women's rights (see Posie Parker), has done a lot to discredit radical feminism overall.

It is easy to forget that a lot of rad fems aren't trans-exclusionary, such as Andrea Dworkin or Cathrine MacKinnon. I think it is deeply unfortunate that radical feminism's reputation and integrity has been so marred by its gender-critical wing that most people just associate the "trans-exclusionary" part whenever radical feminism is mentioned.

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Consider this -- Sweden, the most feminist country in the world, still only has 46% of its women say they are feminist. Even the most feminist country in the world can't get a majority of the female gender to become feminist. What chance is there that there's even a foothold for feminism in countries like Indonesia, the Phillippines, Turkey, Russia, Greece, etc.? It would be like expecting an Afghani man to be a Buddhist monk; Feminism, like all other ideologies, is an ideology of circumstances and environment. It shows up in countries where men have already made the environment safe enough for women to demand even more from men, but in countries where life actually has basic Maslow difficulties, ideas like feminism simply has no way of taking root. So no, if we're talking about worldwide, the OVERWHELMING MAJORITY of women on Earth are not feminists. Dealing with feminism and its fallout is basically the most First World Problem of First World Problems.

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yeah. good point. Thinking men and women should be given equal rights, all genders should be treated like humans, and men and women would all benefit from being given more freedom from narrow-minded, outdated expectations of gender expression

is EXACTLY like believing all governments are in a global conspiracy to cover up that the Earth is flat. /s

Many of the women here are trying to learn about your philosophies, but are met with ire and distain when we ask clarifying questions or present information that doesn't align andb try to understand how RP would reconcile them with said beliefs.

I haven't read every comment but I haven't seen many women call men incels unless they self-identified that way first. I have seen men call us ugly, fat, liars, low value, etc. as a response to logical questions.

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Yeah, the only option for straight men to consider is just naked- which is arguably more freeing. There is very little obligation for a submissive man to be wearing things that are restrictive to his body (outside of literal restraints), makeup, augment his body medically (those do exist for men, but are way less common or expected than breast implants and labia removal), or show off the more aesthetically pleasing parts of his body, like his muscles or dick size. And don't tell me those accessories don't exist: gay men figured it out just fine. Women want their men showing off his muscles and dick size just as much as gay men do, especially if he is a top and intended to look more imposing.

Now, submissive men do tend to shave body hair, I will give them that.

I guarantee you that if porn producers start putting male latex and neoprene/leather gear in straight porn or for media and advertisements to present them casually in a straight context, we will get a push for women finding those attractive. Although then we will end up with an influx of body dysmorphic disorder of men who can't healthily get the muscle needed to hold it.

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Just like women are way less likely to have physical fetishes for men's body parts, no piece of clothing will cause arousal in women the same way pantyhoses, high heels, leather and such do for men.

Those pieces of clothing didn't exist 5, 10, 100, 1,000 years ago. At some point in each culture, we decide to invent something and decide that it's attractive, and for women those things tend to be physically restrictive. We know that women find aesthetics attractive on men- look how popular long hair and half-knots blew up after Game of Thrones came out.

Also, as someone in the kink scene, I can easily name some aesthetic things that men can wear (but usually only gay men do) that show off things both men and women find attractive on men: tight latex that shows off muscles, neoprene or latex harnesses that hold the dick up and that lay around the pecs to show them off, and hell, even heels look great on a man because they flex his calf muscles. Women generally find muscle and bulk attractive on a man, and the gay men have figured out how to show it off, but women don't get that attention from the dominators they deal with.

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Just like... I don't know... live your life and don't judge other people for living theirs.

It's not so much about whether it's "empowering" or "liberating". It's about not placing value judgements on the choices someone makes. It is about rejecting traditional arbitrary purity tests.

The idea that women lose "value" every time they sleep with someone is toxic, irrational, and dehumanizing. Whether a woman is a good person or worth knowing is something that is (or should be) wholly divorced from the number of people she has slept with.

If you want to hook up with someone, rock on. That doesn't make your ambitions any less important. That doesn't make your sense of humor any less funny. if you don't want to hook up with someone, nbd.

I would say it would be patently unfair, and false, to say that a virgin man has less intrinsic value than a promiscuous "chad". If you think its unfair to judge men by how many sexual partners they have had. Why are you applying a different standard to women?

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Yeah. It came from a good place originally: Generally, most if not all feminist intentions are an overall net positive. Most of the things in society that give men privileges just end up biting lower class (poor, POC, disabled, etc) men in the ass or are otherwise not long-term sustainable (like our lack of interest in studying female health for centuries and diminishing or killing the women who did study it = high infant and maternal mortality) so it is true that a feminist world would help everyone.

But people misunderstand that into thinking that means feminists should prioritize the interests of everyone equally. Which is especially ironic since a big issue feminists point out is how gender-neutral/default often = men priority in many cases. We need to make more female distinction to get anywhere.

[–]akaeanCuts herself shaving on Occam's razor 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago* (6 children) | Copy Link

I don't think I've ever read any lib fem arguing that we should "prioritize the interests of everyone equally."

Feminism is and always has been a practical movement and a very political movement.

Most feminists I talk to are concerned about:

bodily autonomy and abortion which is a major battleground in the United States currently. This is probably the issue with the highest stakes currently in play in the United States.
establishing support systems for victims of domestic violence, and while yes, there are male victims of domestic violence, women make up the vast majority.
breaking down the glass ceiling and providing women and girls equal opportunities to men in professional settings. As well as fighting for competitive pay in sports and other fields.
getting rid of random bullshit that punishes women for existing- a luxury tax on tampons, give me a break. I guess it is a luxury to not sit on the toilet for a week.

These are all very woman-forward objectives with practical goals.

The thing is, these goals are important and to reach them, it is necessary to build coalitions. You can see this with feminists supporting LGBTQ+ causes, workers rights causes, and black rights causes. The alliance with the most overlap is probably libfem with LGBTQ+, as many many queer people identify as feminists and participate in feminist discourse. The coalitions work to ensure that (lets face it Democrat) politicians can enact policies and legislation to protect women's rights (as well as the rights of others in the coalition, its not a zero-sum game).

Feminism can be inclusive, but also still woman-focused.

[–]Makuta_ServaelaPurple Pill Woman 1 point2 points3 points 2 years ago* (5 children) | Copy Link

I don't think I've ever read any lib fem arguing that we should "prioritize the interests of everyone equally."

Maybe not that exact wording, but some examples of feminist talking points being converted into humanism that I've seen include, statements like,

"[Insert things feminists want] is good for men too!", implying that it has to be good for more than 50% of the population before it matters in general. Also seen with the sexualization of the breast cancer movement (and prostate or other male cancers don't get that treatment nearly as much). Meanwhile, white people are generally expected to just understand that "Black Lives Matter" and "Stop Asian Hate" are not disparaging phrases to other races.
In general the common misunderstanding of what "intersectional" means. It doesn't mean "oppression olympics", it means that the specific way biases occur is cultural. That there are variants of sexism a white woman and a black woman can and can't understand that the other faces, or a poor woman and a rich woman, or a trans woman and a cis woman, etc.
"First they are coming for abortion, next they will come for gay/trans/etc rights!", implying that them coming for abortion isn't bad enough on its own.
"Inclusive" terminology that is actually exclusive. This includes stating that abortion rights effects "people who can become pregnant" or "people with uteri", when anyone who is perceived as a female, regardless of their gender, sex, or what organs they have, may be rejected medications or be treated with bias, even if they are not or can't be pregnant.

[–]akaeanCuts herself shaving on Occam's razor 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (4 children) | Copy Link

Meanwhile, white people are generally expected to just understand that "Black Lives Matter" and "Stop Asian Hate" are not disparaging phrases to other races.

I mean... have you seen Fox News coverage about BLM? They essentially try to portray them as a terrorist organization. Conservatism has been at war with LGBTQ+ rights, Black Rights, and Women's rights for as long as I can remember. We're all in this shit show together.

What I've seen from politics in the United States, is that a mainstay of Conservative strategy is by and large to drive wedges between progressive groups to divide and distract them. Amplifying the voices of anti-trans rad fems to drive a wedge between feminism and lgbtq+. Driving a wedge between Black and Asian communities by implying that most violence against Asians is caused by African Americans.

"First they are coming for abortion, next they will come for gay/trans/etc rights!", implying that them coming for abortion isn't bad enough on its own.

I would personally see it more as a rallying cry and a motivator. I don't think anyone who votes in favor of abortion is doing it because they are afraid that they will come after their own rights.

Shit, my money was on Obergefell and gay marriage falling before Roe and abortion!

The fall of Roe v Wade was a kick in the pants for many many people. I think a lot of people just took it for granted that that was the law of the land, and when the conservatives took it away, it was a wake-up call... for better or for worse. Many many women and queer people were motivated to take an increased interest and active rather than passive role in politics as a result of the attack on women's rights.

Look at the line in the sand and who is standing where. Queer communities by large voting and advocating to support abortion access and rights. Feminists are by and large voting to support queer rights.

I think it is counter-productive (and goes to the whole issue of "oppression olympics" that we agree is problematic) to purity test your own allies in a fight when the stakes are this high. Practically, there isn't a difference between someone voting to save abortion rights because they believe it is important, and someone who is afraid that if women's rights are taken away their own rights will be taken away. Whatever the motivation is, they are still advocating for women's rights, and working to forward feminist causes.

"Inclusive" terminology that is actually exclusive. This includes stating that abortion rights effects "people who can become pregnant" or "people with uteri", when anyone who is perceived as a female, regardless of their gender, sex, or what organs they have, may be rejected medications or be treated with bias, even if they are not or can't be pregnant.

Honestly, I don't care about "inclusive" terminology. What is important is the rights and that the rights are protected. If someone wants to say "people who can become pregnant" in order to be inclusive of trans men. That is perfectly fine. A moron like Matt Walsh can sit here obsessing and purity testing over "what is a woman??," The important thing here is that abortions are available for who needs them.

No matter what words you use, no matter how inclusive or exclusive you are, it doesn't change the importance of an organization with boots on the ground like Planned Parenthood. Planned Parenthood has become a lifeline to both women and queer communities. The work they do on abortion is important, and the services they provide to trans people doesn't diminish or make their abortion services any less valid or important.

I do agree with you that oppression olympics are bullshit. two issues can be important and worth advocating for at the same time. But I do disagree that we should be purity testing and driving wedges between the groups of people that by and large can be relied upon to vote for and support womens rights in the polls. We need to be standing strong, arm in arm, against the regressive conservative political machine that seeks to roll back civil rights... not bickering about whether someone's motivation for supporting a cause isn't pure enough.

[–]Makuta_ServaelaPurple Pill Woman 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago* (3 children) | Copy Link

I mean... have you seen Fox News coverage about BLM?

This conversation isn't about antis, though. This is about supporters: Men who support feminism shouldn't require pro-man services in feminism, just like white people who support BLM knew not to require pro-white services. The white people instead were guided to instruct others to uplift black voices and listen to black people. At the protests, white people even guided each other to protect black people by standing in the front of the line to lower chances of police brutality.

What is important is the rights and that the rights are protected.

The problem is that rights aren't being protected with this. The terminology breaks down the very group-promotion you were referring to. By implying that the issue, in this example, is the ability to become pregnant, we exclude everyone who is affected purely because they look like they could become pregnant. By referring to organs, we exclude people who don't know the names and functions of all of their body parts (which is surprisingly a lot). We also exclude people who don't know they can become pregnant, like people who have had their uterus removed but still have eggs, or trans men.

We need to be standing strong, arm in arm, against the regressive conservative political machine that seeks to roll back civil rights... not bickering about whether someone's motivation for supporting a cause isn't pure enough.

On the contrary, the motivation is important too. It's not about purity, it's about mindset. For example, say two groups of people want prostitution to be legal. The prostitutes want it because doing so grants them freedom to access legislation and protections. The pimps want it because it makes it easier for them to not get arrested for pimping and trafficking. The pimps are a rich collective who can and do make organizations claiming "We work in the sex industry, and we want sex worker legalization!", draw money and attention away from groups supporting actual sex-worker rights, and then use that power to push for legalization without regulation.

If an oppressor group and an oppressed group agree on a legal right for vastly different reasons, the oppressor group can turn it to abuse the oppressed group even more.

[–]akaeanCuts herself shaving on Occam's razor 0 points1 point2 points 2 years ago (2 children) | Copy Link

The pimp example isn't great, I don't think anyone has ever implied that pimps are a marganized group Moreover, every argument I've ever heard in favor of decriminalization of sex work is that regulation can protect the women in those spaces.

I would hope that we agree that the lgbtq+ community is not an "oppressor group" so when we are talking about alliances between marginalized groups, such as with queer communities and organizations, that shouldn't really be a concern. Mermaids making a donation to Planned Parenthood isn't hurting feminism or women, if anything it helps.

I also think you are putting too much emphasis on the language. The important thing is that if someone is pregnant, they have someplace safe they can go if they need an abortion.

Debating about definitions and meaning is important. But it is important in a philosophical sense and not as relevant when we are fighting conservatives on such high stakes issues on political battlegrounds.

Queer people aren't secret anti feminists trying to corrupt the movement, and to imply they are is disingenous to the lesbian community which is integral to both movements.

[–]teball3Blue Pill Man 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (24 children) | Copy Link

I am a man and a feminist. That said, there are times where I am definitely a man first and a feminist second. There are definitely uses of misandry throughout feminism, some of which are especially egregious like the first men's domestic violence shelter in England being shut down by militant feminists https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erin_Pizzey while others are more like minor things that irk and pull at the back of your mind as obviously biased in a sexist way, like the difference between "internalized misogyny" and "toxic masculinity".

However, in that link above, Erin Pizzey was a feminist when she decided to open up that domestic violence shelter for men. It can be easy as a man to look at the negatives and ignore the fact that often the movement is living up to it's ideals of equality for all. The classic example I see here is when people say "Feminists don't want women to be drafted, so they don't really want equality." and in order to say that, you first have to completely ignore the fact that a ton of feminists have been trying to get men out of signing up for the draft, at least here in America. They are fighting for equality, just in the direction that is best for all, instead of making things equallly bad for everyone.

I have a lot of criticisms of feminism as a movement, but I have criticisms because I want it to be better, not because I think it shouldn't exist.

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> If women give birth and men cannot, what is the “equivalent”?

valuing this labor and factoring it into how the relationship is overall near 50/50

> How do you define “equality” - statistical gender parity in everything?

no

individuals respected as autonomous human beings with dignity and worthy of belonging to the group (not romantic relationship specific)

aka you can't say "womens roles are 24/7 unpaid labor" and "mens roles are 40 hours of paid labor" because that posits that men are ontologically bosses and women are ontologically subservient to and dependent on men (because money is necessary for survival in our culture).

in the barbie movie the garbage collectors were respected, dignified, included members of the community, i thought this was a great example of feminism that it was shown that people who do traditionally "unwanted" jobs are just as valuable as everyone else. (especially a male-coded job)

> The point is that “equality” is open for interpretation and debate

yeah that doesn't mean feminists want female supremacy

even matriarchal cultures weren't an inverse of patriarchy (hierarchy, supremacy) they were egalitarian

> blindly advancing only women’s side of things

well yeah feminism shouldn't be advanced in a way that harms men but if you're interpreting women talking about inequality as women "hurting" men (bc men would prefer nothing change bc they are at an advantage), idk what to tell you.

people have to be able to fight for positive changes in society or the society is toxic and unhealthy

like in a cult, you can't question the rules/leaders and they will frame it as harmful to do so

> True gender equality needs to take both men and women into account and might encourage women to change and modernize too in ways they might not like.

yeah it would be great if there was a wholesome men's movement dovetail-ing with feminism so that feminists weren't speaking for men

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I truly believe the end of goal feminism is alterting societys social and financial framework to maximize resource extraction from men.

resources loosely defined as time, energy, money.

careers: women need to be paid as much as men!

relationships: you need to cater to womens' needs!

society: womens' issues are paramount, we need to politicize it and enact laws for equality of outcome for women (not opportunity).

Men are about equality of opportunity, indepedance, self responsibility/accountability to maximize resource production

Women are about equality of outcomes, fairness, and accountability (to men and society) to maximize resource extraction

my theory is that this is ingrained subconciously and is directly tied to female instict to protect their offspring through maximum resource extraction and males to demonstrate maximum output to attract women for reproduction.

[–]akaeanCuts herself shaving on Occam's razor 2 points3 points4 points 2 years ago (1 child) | Copy Link

yooooo, dude, like can you pass me that crack pipe. I need a hit, and whatever you are smoking looks dope af.

"When you are accustomed to privilege, equality looks like oppression."

Women are sentient rational beings, same as men. They should have the same fundamental and inalienable rights as any other sentient rational being. As a baseline, a woman existing in society should be treated as a man would be treated.

Yes. That means equal pay

Yes. That means having their needs met in a relationship.

The worst part is, you aren't even wrong that society as a whole views you (and all other men and women) as disposable meat sacks that need to be mined and abused for profit. But its not feminism that is doing that.

Its the billionaire donor class, and their bought and paid-for politicians- especially Republican and other conservative politicians, that are creating a system of starvation wages, increasing inflation, and stagnation of wages designed to hinder social mobility and siphon wealth into the pockets of the ultra rich.

In fact if you are afraid of being seen as nothing more than a disposable tool to make someone else wealthy, feminists are by and large your sisters in arms. Today, it is feminists who are aligned with labor unions and other pro-worker organizations.

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I realized last year that I’m not ok with the term patriarchy. I think we should throw it out. It’s no longer useful in a modern context. I was really excited to see the Barbie movie, cause I love Ryan Gosling, Greta Gerwig is a talented director, I like the color pink, and it just looked like a big party. And it was a party. But I realized I was lying to myself about how comfortable I am with patriarchy when applied to a modern context. It just feels like this nebulous blanket that people spread over everything. The way patriarchy is used today just means “gender norms”. I think gender norms can be stupid, I would love if we could just say “gender norms” if that’s what we want to talk about. But having a word that weights every gender norm around an inherently gendered term just feels so lacking in nuance, and frankly sexist. Even if you grant that women contribute to patriarchy, the word still feels rotten at the root. It’s like this ever-expanding hydra. And if you want to make it the source of all that’s wrong with gender, the term itself simply can not be gendered. I used to rationalize the term in a sort of academic haze, where people could approach the word responsibly, but that’s not the way words work. It’s a catch-all scapegoat. I think it needs to be retired.

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"Cultish use of language" - I used the dictionary definition of "ultimately," which means "in the end" or "as the final consequence." I did not alter the meaning of the word to fit my needs. So I ask, "cultish" in what way? Because "cultish" doesn't really mean anything to me, especially when I am using and interpretating words as they are typically defined.

"advocating for a nuanced approach that acknowledges how we all contribute to gender norms" - We do all contribute to gender norms. However, we do not all benefit equally (or at all) from gender norms. This is what the concept of the "patriarchy" is meant to represent.

"often a benefit comes with a negative attached if you view things from the other side" - I acknowledged this already, as I have already said that gender norms harm everyone. However, the harms of adhering to a gender norm do not inherently equal or even outweigh the benefits of adhering to a gender norm, and vice versa. Gender norms can still ultimately be to the benefit men, and also harm them.

"y'all are just choosing to frame things in a way that makes women appear oppressed" - Women are oppressed in the US. It is impossible to live in a country where a woman may be legally forced to give birth against her will and potentially risk death and for that to not be a country where women are oppressed.

"what only applies to men who adhere to gender norms" - To simplify as much as possible: You only gain the benefit of gender norms if you choose to adhere to them. Gender norms are to the ultimate benefit of men who choose to adhere to them. This does not apply if you are not one of those men.

There are no logical fallacies in anything I have said thus far. Either you are assuming my beliefs, or you are misunderstanding what I'm saying.

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I logged into my other account to see why all your posts said [deleted] and why I couldn't respond to the thread anymore. I could see your comment from my other account just fine. If you didn't block me and unblock me that's really interesting.

>And some men do not grow body or facial hair like some East Asian men. Doesn't mean they are pre-pubescent.

Exactly. Post-pubescent men don't always have beards. Not to mention how you grow your beard is a stylistic choice like eyebrows or the hair on your head. Beards are the only type of hair that is unhygienic, because of all the food particles from your mouth. Everyone has leg hair though, so if a woman wanted a man to shave their legs that would be wrong as well (although not equally as bad, because you can assume she just wants a man to shave because she has been forced to all her life).

I'd even agree with you that no beards and no chest hair shows women's preference for young post-pubescent men, but not pre-pubescent children.

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if all other options are exhausted and defending the country is unavoidable, and all voluntary members of the military and national guard have been deployed and we STILL need people, more people would typically volunteer.

But assuming they actually need to institute a draft, I know a lot of feminists who believe it should be for both men and women.

I know other feminists who believe it's unfair that people can get out of the draft, often because of privilege, and would say if there is a draft, it should not unfairly apply to the underprivileged (as it always has in the past).

I know many feminists who are pacifists and would say there should be no draft, period. Even if this means we don't have enough people to fight a war.

Lastly, I know feminists who would say, if there's a need for a draft, it should only be instituted for members of elected office and not on lay people at all.

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FEMINISM WEEKLY DISCUSSION THREAD

Comments

They aren’t jealous of the stepfather. They are jealous of the biological father.

Title	FEMINISM WEEKLY DISCUSSION THREAD
Author	AutoModerator
Upvotes	3
Comments	452
Date	January 13, 2024 5:01 PM UTC (2 years ago)
Subreddit	Posted in /r/PurplePillDebate
Original Link	https://old.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/195sjpp/feminism_weekly_discussion_thread/
Archive Link	https://theredarchive.com/r/PurplePillDebate/feminism-weekly-discussion-thread.1242891 https://theredarchive.com/post/1242891